What, Exactly, Does Robin DO?

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From an internal continuity point of view - how does the Batman justify having him around?

From an external meta point of view - how does he affect the storytelling?

This is from somebody who very rarely reads Bat-comics.

(Though would if they had more of the SCI FI CLOSET I hasten to add)

― Tom (Groke), Sunday, 7 November 2004 09:02 (twenty-one years ago)

he's the nick carraway to bruce's gatsby

― haha notreally dude (James Blount), Sunday, 7 November 2004 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

sidekicks =
i. can explain what just happened out loud
ii. can dramatise moral dilemmas out loud
iii. can inadvisedly go into action on their own, get butts kicked and be rescued (= demonstrate the nature/plans/skeez/threat of a villain on-screen)

(haha last night i wz watchin a DVD of a french-TV production of count of monte cristo w.dr vick - CoMC has an italian servant-sidekick called BERTUCCIO, who is also a master chef rather unusually - and when he is not going into ecstacies over the dishes he just prepared he is discussing/being told AT TREMENDOUIS LENGTH the advisability and intricacies of the CoMC's elaborate plans for revenge) (also: being told who ppl are, as the book is v.long and this series has to get through a lot of plot outlay v.fast)

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 7 November 2004 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

(TREMENDOUIS = ancien regime french for rad)

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 7 November 2004 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Robin has pretty much travelled back and forth between being Watson, Aunt May, and Jiminy Cricket. Eventually, his purpose is really just to continue to exist because people are used to Batman having a Robin, and so new waves of writers will find new justifications for him just as they will for the Bat-emblem, the ears, etc.

― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 7 November 2004 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Robin wasn't with Batman in the beginning of the series, right? He was only introduced because the editors of the comic wanted someone the young readers (supposedly) could identify with.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Sunday, 7 November 2004 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

(This was in the 1940s, so he's still existed a looong time.)

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Sunday, 7 November 2004 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, he's been around about as long as Superman's been flying. But yeah, he was definitely the viewpoint/wish-fulfillment character at first. (That was the buzz on Spider-Man in the sixties, combining the "teen hero" character readers could want to be like, and could have things in common with, with the actual hero of the story.)

― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 7 November 2004 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I just read The Many Lives of the Batman a book of "critical" essays from 1991 about, uh, Batman, and everybody pretty much agrees with the above. There's a really interesting look at what was then WCI (now, um, AOLTW? or they've dropped that even, is just WB?) and how their corporate convergence was so awe-inspiring in re: the '89 Batman movie.

In DC: The New Frontier, Darwyn Cooke has a great scene where solo Batman scares the poop out of a kid he's just rescued from sinister cult. The next time we see him he's got Robin and Supes asks the key question and blahblahblah...

― Huk-L, Monday, 8 November 2004 02:07 (twenty-one years ago)

There's a really interesting look at what was then WCI (now, um, AOLTW? or they've dropped that even, is just WB?) and how their corporate convergence was so awe-inspiring in re: the '89 Batman movie.

Yeah, I just read Will Brooker's "Batman Unmasked", and it discusses the same thing. A Batman film was in the planning ever since the seventies, but in the eighties it was unsure whether it should about the dark, mysterious Batman or the campy Batman of the sixties TV series. Apparently Warner considered Miller's Dark Knight Returns sort of a test run for the darker approach (even though Miller didn't know it), to see whether it would sell. It did, as we all know, and thus we got "Batman" by Tim Burton, without Robin or the campiness. Although it seems like Robin was there in some initial versions of the script, but he was gonna be killed (by the Joker, I presume) in some point of the film. It's kinda sad this idea didn't make the final draft, it would've made the film more interesting.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 8 November 2004 08:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I remember hearing that the board members of WB made them drop the 'AOL' as it was no longer classy.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 8 November 2004 09:56 (twenty-one years ago)

(I am surprised Huck didn't post the Robin assmunch picture.)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 8 November 2004 13:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Tuomas-Did you know Will Brooker is our Dr. the Pinefox's brother, for what it's worth?

― jocelyn (Jocelyn), Monday, 8 November 2004 14:04 (twenty-one years ago)

(I'm surprised, too. Does your having mentioned it pre-empt the laughs that would be derived from such a posting?)

― Huk-L, Monday, 8 November 2004 14:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't consider that pic an ass-munch pic so much as it's a rutting-for-truffles pic.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 8 November 2004 15:00 (twenty-one years ago)

At least Marvel had the sense to rid Captain America of Bucky at a relatively early stage, so that he could be brought back periodically and referred to sorrowfully to give Cap some depth.
When DC finally got around to offing Robin, they brought the little git back.
i always preferred Bats unencumbered by sidekicks...

― David N (David N.), Monday, 8 November 2004 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Are there any sidekicks who really ARE there primarily as First Fuck-Buddy?

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 8 November 2004 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

In "legitimate" comics or in semi-satirical post-modern comics? In the latter, there's a (wait for it) pantload - the sidekick porno ring in Top Ten, Bratpack, The Cobweb (in ABC's Tomorrow Stories), etc etc etc. I have to think Wanted has a grand old time w/ this trope. Grant Morisson makes mild intimations to Jimmy Olson being a spandex perv in JLA: Earth 2.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 8 November 2004 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, Bert & Ernie.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 8 November 2004 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

From It's A Wonderful Life?

see also: Blue Beetle & Booster Gold

― Huk-L, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 02:28 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://www.supermanartists.comics.org/batman/Wingman-Batman065-03.jpg

― Huk-L, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Robin looks a little chunky, no wonder Batman dropped him. Who needs a tubby sidekick?

― Huk-L, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

He's big-boned!

Cough.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.inepcia.com/batman-robin.jpg

"Yes, he's right here beside me now...no, I haven't told him yet...I was thinking, you know, of just driving out to the country...that's right, the side of the road..."

― Huk-L, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 15:13 (twenty-one years ago)

So what you guys are saying is that the answer to the thread question is "eats all of the pies."

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 15:15 (twenty-one years ago)

http://comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/unbranded/b/unbranded-batman-&-robin-photo.jpg

"You have to stop calling me here, Speedy, the Bee-Double-You is getting suspicious."

― Huk-L, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 15:17 (twenty-one years ago)

http://heroesink.thehendricks.net/images/Mooney/Worlds_Finest_36_by_Jim_Mooney.jpg

― Huk-L, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 15:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, in that one brief moment Superman is way creepy.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 15:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Prelude To A Superkiss.

http://theages.superman.ws/Encyclopaedia/death/wrong.gif

― Huk-L, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/87/400/87_4_0382.jpg

― Huk-L, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 18:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Batman seems to be fascinated by his own penis.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 18:33 (twenty-one years ago)

as who is not?

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 18:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Martian Manhunter, maybe?

― Huk-L, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 18:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, Martian Manhunter can see Batman's penis whenever he wants, he's a shapeshifter.

― Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Only character that should be fascinated by his wang = The Floronic Man. Because it's actually a VENUS FLY TRAP!

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Whereas Black Vulcan has a fly Venus trap.

― Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Jokes should probably not start with "whereas," henceforth.

― Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Forsooth.

In his pants.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I have mainly just watched the cartoons on tv, but he's kind of like Wesley Crusher, isn't he?

― Leon the Fratboy (Ex Leon), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

If you mean gay and good with computers, then yes.

― Huk-L, Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course that's what I meant.

― Leon the Fratboy (Ex Leon), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually yeah, Wesley is probably the best non-other-comics analogy for Robin most of the time, even down to fan reaction.

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I am now officially in mourning for Robin's coolness.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Robin's only cool when he's a girl.

― Huk-L, Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

What about when SHE'S a girl?

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Back to uncool.

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Robin has to be into 'the youth', and he has to appear on a lot of covers shouting "You're not the bat-boss of me!" at Batman as he waves Huey lewis record around in his other paw, or what's the point of him?

― Vic Fluro, Wednesday, 10 November 2004 23:52 (twenty-one years ago)

You people need to share this love for us elsewhere. (In terms of being outstanding pervertalists.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 November 2004 15:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Only character that should be fascinated by his wang = The Floronic Man. Because it's actually a VENUS FLY TRAP!

No, that would be Poison Ivy's pussy, wouldn't it?

― Christine 'Green Leafy Dragon' Indigo (cindigo), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

eek

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Have at it, folks.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Are sloppy seconds a good thing or a bad thing in this case?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 November 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't believe we actually think people are going to delurk now!

― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

So, I've managed to gross out the entire board? Looks like it!

― Christine 'Green Leafy Dragon' Indigo (cindigo), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Why are you covering your eyes, Mr. Fireman? There's nothing shameful about a grown man and his youthful ward sharing a pole!
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/141/400/141_4_0000060.jpg

Another close call!
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/141/400/141_4_0000079.jpg

― Huk-L, Friday, 12 November 2004 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

!!!

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 12 November 2004 17:51 (twenty-one years ago)

The fireman is saying "what kind of crazy gay strip club is this??"

― Mark C (Markco), Sunday, 14 November 2004 18:41 (twenty-one years ago)

hortio alger gave america a new archtype, because of algers personal "prefrances(sp)", this archtype carried some baggage--if you copy the story as closely as kane did for batman (up to and including the orphan shit) then you inadventrly would carry various ghost texts--these ghost texts are embodied in robin.

― anthony, Tuesday, 16 November 2004 06:53 (twenty-one years ago)

four months pass...

I have a feeling I've said something like this before, but it's informed by reading more issues now:

Can someone else who has read both Fables and Willingham's Robin back me up when I say that he seems like a completely different writer on Robin? In a bad way? I don't just mean the fact that the first is an ensemble piece in his own world and the second is a single-protagonist also-ran in a cluster of continuity over which he has no personal control, a fact that would also make it hard to tell if it's phoning it in, since many of the things he's good at in Fables aren't available options to him here: it just plain SOUNDS different. If you covered up the credits, I'd never guess this was him. The dialogue, at its worst, reads like a back-up feature in an annual, and its best isn't much better than that; scenes which writers ordinarily slaver over, like "Tim Drake decides not to be Robin anymore," are handled with such terse and emotionless dialogue that it reads like an outline, like he meant to go back and write real dialogue later.

The only reason I've read as many issues as I have is because of how odd the dichotomy is. It's not even over-the-top Byrnian/Claremontian bad; it's just shrug-worthy plots matched to bland, flat dialogue.

― Tep (ktepi), Sunday, 27 March 2005 01:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, he has been writing comics for (at least) the best part of 20 years, it makes sense that he can do one style on once comic and a different one on another (see also Ed Brubaker, Peter Milligan).

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 28 March 2005 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Didn't he also used to draw comics?

― Huk-L, Monday, 28 March 2005 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

It's a lot more than just a stylistic issue, though -- it's different stylistically, sure, but the quality gap is enormous, and the dialogue especially would be bad in any story.

― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 28 March 2005 14:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I bought the first issue of the Batman "War Games" arc just because he was writing it, and it was awful. Well, not awful, just completely unremarkable and (like you said) containing none of the good qualities that I associate with his writing from Fables.

I didn't get any of the issues after that though, so maybe it improved (come to think of it, I haven't bought anything Bat-related since that issue!)

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 28 March 2005 14:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Huk, he did! Before this recent deluge of BW writerly goodness, he was probably best known for his Comico series, Elementals. (He also drew a couple of Giffen / DeMatteis JL annuals!)

And what Tep said - I've only skimmed an issue here or there, but there is a distinct qualitative difference between his Robin work & his Vertigo work (which does have me wonderin' about how good his INFINITE CRISIS series will be). "Mailing it in" doesn't do justice to those folks that actually buy the stamps & bother to go to the mailbox. I don't want my favorite writers to show "range" if that "range" involves "making like Electrolux".

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 28 March 2005 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't get any of the issues after that though, so maybe it improved

It didn't, unfortunately. The scripting and the pacing are the big things -- maybe "phoned in" really is what I'm picking up and it just isn't registering that way because my mental image of what a phoned-in Willingham story would be is more like phoned-in Fables/Merv Pumpkinhead/etc, because like I said, the dialogue reads like placeholders, and as often as not the pacing feels like he just writes until he gets to the last page.

(which does have me wonderin' about how good his INFINITE CRISIS series will be)

Yeah, the similarity to the stankass terrible Geoff Johns Day of Judgement already had my hackles up. Fables is good enough that my usual reaction is to think, "I'd like to see him on other things too," but sometimes the world needs more Harper Lees.

― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 28 March 2005 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I just read (I picked up a JLI grab bag after getting Countdown spoiled) what was one of my favourite JLI stories, JLI Annual #2, where the Mr. Miracle has a bbq and Beetle & Booster (recently broke) enter the repo business, and the Joker crashes the party.
Willingham (who also did a few fill-in issues of GLC while Joe Staton was otherwise occupied with the Millennium craziness) had some good stuff, but did a terrible Fire (who I think was still The Green Flame or The Green Fury at that point).

― Huk-L, Monday, 28 March 2005 14:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Hm, new thread.

― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 28 March 2005 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

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