The Greatest Comics Ever Sez ILC [no longer the "Best" -mod]

42 points.

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/defenders.gif

"Gerber... came up with the very satisfying conclusion to what has to be the most outrageous epic ever to run in any comics magazine, bar none. I'm referring to the Headmen/Bozos/Nebulon saga, of course (in DEFENDERS #'s 31-40 and GIANT-SIZE DEFENDERS #5, with peripheral portions scattered here and there in other issues as well). This was insanity incarnate, distilled and purified. The Headmen, Nebulon, ludberdites, bozos -- even Gerald Ford -- all cavorted for oveer ten issues, with the culmination being a philosophical exchange among Dr. Strange, Nebulon and President Ford, held in nether-space. And that's not to mention about a half-dozen-or-so brains and minds being switched from head to head, by (you guessed it) the Headmen -- so often and so unpredictably that you needed a scorecard to tell whose mind was in whose brain was in whose body. But viewed as an artistic whole, the blasted thing makes sense -- damn good sense. Gerber constructed a multi-part masterwork that, to my knowledge, stands unique in comics. It was a fitting capstone to Steve's riotous reign on THE DEFENDERS, and is perhaps the finest sustained effort (with individual portions already classics) in the first fifty issues of the magazine."
- quoted by Tep.

"This is the maddest run of superhero comics any major company has ever produced. Ludicrous villains (including a man with a melting face who Harry Redknapp always reminds me of), brains and minds getting swapped from body to body in a way that is almost impossible to follow, and all sorts of great and funny dialogue. The art is functional though repetitive - but it gets everything across okay. I'd rather have this than fancy stuff that isn't easy to read, especially when the story gets so insanely complex. I treasure these comics."
-Martin Skidmore

Availability: Not as far as I know. But if Essential Defenders 2 and 3 ever come out that should sort you out.

43 points.

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/transformers.jpg

As a by-product of an enormously successful toy range and cartoon
series, I suspect many may feel there's a lack of authenticity or
'real love' here. But Transformers captured the imagination of 80s
children spectacularly in the UK and the British version of the comic
reflected that 'love' well, portraying the epic good/evil battle with
satisfying fervour and theatrical characterisation and plotlines,
largely thanks to the comic's dominant writer Simon Furman and his
frequent partnership with Geoff Senior whose rigid but dynamic
illustration style met Marvel's esteemed benchmark comfortably. (Best
stories: The Enemy Within, The Smelting Pool, Target 2006, Prey-Fallen Angel sequence)
- Steve M

Availability: Yup - in nine volumes. (Transformers fans may be able to vouch for the accuracy of this info)

43 points.

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/shock/fshock28.jpg

Ahem, yes. The first thing I should say is that Vic Fluro was not among the five voters for this. The second thing I should say is that this is one of the funniest 2000AD parodies I've ever seen. All those years of reading godawful pre-Alan Moore future shocks were worth it after all. Also a testament to the value of just sitting down and scribbling.

Availability: Not only is it available, it's free!

Also, that Transformers cover is marvelous.

44 points.

Seaguy has to be one of the most enchanting comics I've ever read. A dreamy, melancholy, marvellously odd book, its writer claimed it's a riff on the Medeival quest epic but to me it feels like a skewed version of a Nintendo game, the bright hero battling through three levels of the playful and uncanny before the reset button is pressed. Were it not for the several horribly sad moments you could also see it as Grant Morrison doing something for kids. But Chubby sums it up best - "Da Fug?" Whatever the explanation, though, everything in Seaguy makes a kind of unconscious sense. (And the art is perfect, too)

Availability: February 1st

Yay Defenders making the list!

Doing the entries is taking a bit longer but is good fun!

46 points.

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/sandman.gif

I was hoping to grab some ILX comments on this but no such luck, server too busy (feel free to add comments by the way!). It's the one where Neil Gaiman's Grand Design starts to be revealed, it's got all sorts of Endless malarkey in it, it's got the serial killer's convention, it's got the Shakespearean interlude (best thing in it IMO), it is by reputation tightly plotted, basically it's where the most talked-about comic of the 90s started to build up steam and lay the foundations of its enduring cult.

Availability: Perpetual.

47 points.

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/newfrontier.jpg

"The world feels real (even in the face of impossibilities such as superheroes and prehistoric leviathans that threaten humanity) because it’s visually grounded. Yes, the visuals themselves are idealistic, iconic, and there’s a reason for that. These images are impressed on the American (and Canadian) psyche as part of our history. Again and again and again, Cooke shows that he has a masterful eye for design and a keen historical accuracy that evokes a feeling of Postwar America (even if that America never really existed.) Edwards Air Force Base, Las Vegas, googie architecture and design, the first stirrings of the space race and the Cold War, sprawling noir cityscapes, newsreels, talking-head public affairs shows, Blue Note record covers, automobile design, commercial design and propaganda are blended together seamlessly into a visually stunning whole."
- from Matt Maxwell's review at his place

Availability: DC, notoriously, are ripping off The Kids by issuing this series as two GNs rather than one. Volume 1 here

Potentially others too, I will email.

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/seaguy.jpg

Given the proximity, yet higher position, of Seaguy to it, I'm just chalking it up to lack of exposure. I don't remember the series ever having been reprinted (maybe the Headmen storyline could have been? But not that I remember), and it must be close to 30 years old now.

Curse my lack of quarter bins!

Thanks for the kind words WRT my New Frontier babbling, Huk.

47 points.

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/Akira_sitting.gif

"I've never read another comic as kinetic and streamlined as Akira." - Wooden

I think if this list was ranked on 'importance' Akira would be even higher - back in the late 80s it was probably the most famous Japanese comic, and I think was a lot of people's first real actual encounter with the vast and much-whispered-of world of 'manga', plus then there was the whole film thing. All I can remember about it now are explosions and motorbikes though (no bad thing in itself).

"Where do you start with something as big as Akira? The 1988 feature length landmark anime stunned nerds world-wide with its high concept storyline, sophisticated animation and cyberpunk inspired themes, and single-handedly kicked Japanamation into the mainstream. But to many fans, the anime version is a pale shadow of the 2,000-plus-page manga on which it was based.

Originally serialised in Japan between 1981 and 1993, Katshurio Otomo's sci-fci tome was a revelation to many western comic fans when Epic serialised an English version in the early 90’s. A bold and breathtaking epic of potent narrative strength and astonishing illustrative skill, Akira is set in the post-apocalypse Neo-Tokyo of 2019, a vast metropolis built on the ashes of a Tokyo annihilated by an blast of unknown power that triggered World War III. Against this background, Otomo skilfully weaves multiple story strands, involving doped up biker gangs, psychic children, secret government experiments, mad scientists and corrupt politicians, revolutionaries, religious cults, suprisingly tragic and tender relationships, and an investigation into the nature of time and consciousness. These are interspersed with huge set piece action and battle scenes that take place over entire issues of the original manga, and entire plotlines, barely touched upon in the anime are explored, with previously incoherent story strands drawn together to form a much more complete version of the story.

Riding high on the success of his award winning manga: DOMU, Otomo’s vision is executed with extreme confidence. Like his contemporaries; Jiro Tanaguichi, Yukinobo Hoshino, and Akima Yoshida, Otomo eschewed the traditional ‘big eyes’ approach to manga, with a gritty and super-detailed drawing style, that owed more to Moebius than Tezuka. Standout scenes abound. The biker battles in the early issues. Akira’s awakening, Kaneda’s many escapes from certain death, the satellite laser attack on Tokyo, Tetseuo’s battle with the US navy, and his destruction of half of the moon, all leading to an incredible climax, and one of the most satisfying last pages of a comic that I’ve ever had the pleasure to read...

If you haven't got a copy, go out an buy, borrow or steal one. You wont regret it."
- Droid

Availability: Droid sez - "After years of only publishing only the first volume in Europe, Dark horse comics have recently reprinted the entire series with the original black and white artwork over 6 volumes - 350 (or so) pages per volume, though it’s worth seeking out the original Epic editions purely for the excellent colouring throughout, and for overall ‘swankiness’. Graphitti’s full colour hardback editions, released in the late 90’s should be bought on sight.

http://www.darkhorse.com/search/search.php?frompage=userinput&sstring=akira

49 points.

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"One of the great things I enjoy about Kochalka is his ability to draw floppy things. Floppy elves, floppy kitties, and most amazingly, the floppy snow."
- Chris Piuma on ILE, back in the day.

Availability: Website here. Buy it here.

49 points.

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/planetary.jpg

"With all due respect to Warren Ellis and his inspired mixture of hard science, pop science, science fiction, pulp heroism, history, mythology (ancient and modern) and, of course, fantastical spandexed foofery, Planetary would be just another admirable hair in his beard were it not for John Cassaday. Each panel offered by Cassaday merges a stark Spartan precision with lush verisimilitude and a overwhelming sense of importance - a scene featuring the 3 archaeologists of the impossible shoot the shit bears the same weight as a scene depicting ethereal aliens gliding silently on gossamer butterfly wings over the open grave of a monolithic stone corpse. And each moment is important - Planetary spans the 20th century and the globe, and does so with an infectous cynical wonder that turned what could have been a hoary exercise in lifeless wink-addled postmodernism into am awe-inspiring ornate triumph."
- David Raposa

Availability: This looks like a good place to start.

50 points.

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/wedge/corto.jpg

"Of all non-children's comics made in Europe, Corto Maltese is the one that is perhaps most often compared, favourably, to "real" literature. I won't go into the discussion whether such comparisons are in any way relevant, but it's interesting to note that Corto Maltese is still very much reliant on the comic form. It's not one story in one book, but a series of albums and short stories. This form allowed Hugo Pratt, the man behind the series, to build upon the personalities of the characters, to have them disappear for years, or even decades, and then just return to the series. For example, one couldn't understand the "I love you, but I want to kill you" relationship between Corto and Rasputin by just reading one story - you have to know their history from the beginning. Also, the series form allowed Pratt to change the style of the comic from historical realism to high adventure to fantasy; and towards the end, mix them all into a wonderfully dream-like blend.

So what is Corto Maltese? It is a story about the titular character, a shipless sailor, one of the coolest characters ever to inhabit the comic realm, who divides his fellow human beings not into "good" and "bad", but into "sympathetic" and "unsympathetic". It is, if you need to narrow it down to a genre, a "historical adventure" taking place in the 1910s and 1920s; however, Pratt treats the history of different areas and different peoples of the world with more respect than most other writers, and even though Corto Maltese has its share of adventure, more often than not it turns into poetic movement, captured by Pratt's highly idiosyncratic storytelling as well as his impressionistic, flowing pencil line."
- Tuomas

Availability: You can get English editions of some of the stories but if Amazon is anything to go buy you'll be paying scalpers' prices for them. Better to check them out in the original, for example here.

This is an interesting view, because as you certainly know, during the run of the series Pratt's line got less and less detailed and more and more impressionistic and simplified. I think his broad srikes fit quite well with the last two Corto stories (The Secret Rose and Mu), since they're grounded more in dreams than in reality.

Have you seen the Corto Maltese animated feature, Martin? It's quite good.

It's worth noting that comics have never really made it as an adult medium in the UK or US. There's been the odd breakthrough success like Maus or Jimmy Corrigan, but not a general adult audience, so something that is an adventure story, and therefore not evident to everyone as Serious Literature, but isn't colourful superhero action, is stepping into territory where the potential audience is very small. And the magazine was never translated into English, which surprised me - I'd have thought the numbers across North America and the UK would have made that worthwhile.

I don't feel I've read enough comics in the last decade to vote, but I'd be interested in the results for sure.

It'd be perfectly okay to have a ballot with no post-2004 comics in it! My point was merely that there are enough new comics and new ILXors that the results might be different than in 2004, but that doesn't meant everyone has to vote for newer stuff.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest but sic, William C, Ward, Chap and (implicit) me have either questioned it or taken a 'no' stance. Mordy has said yes and I assume you do too. Old Lunch broadly positive but uncommitted. Not sure exactly who you think "everyone else" is on ILC these days.

Do it if you want to do it, don't if you don't. I think I can promise on behalf of those on ILC nobody will bitch and moan and say it's been done before or link to this thread (except for lols at the outset maybe). I'm sure even some of us querying it will vote.

The main reason I'm more interested in ballots than poll results in this specific instance is the weird way that comics wind up being grouped for voting purposes. Like, there's going to be a lot of vote splitting between people who vote for L&R as a single entity and those who vote for Blood of Palomar/Love Bunglers et al. I'm way more interested in seeing which specific Barks story someone rates highly as opposed to the completely unsurprising high placement of Uncle Scrooge in the poll results.

That said, I would certainly vote. Although I'd probably vote for discrete runs/storylines that more than likely won't make it into the final results.

I understand your point, but voting for separate stories instead of runs would mean a lot vote splitting, so Love & Rockets and Uncle Scrooge might not make it to the top 50 at all.

If I do this poll, I guess I could do it so that you'll vote for specific series (like Jaime Hernandez' Locas, Hergé's Tintin) and runs (like Claremont's X-Men, Barks' Uncle Scrooge), but you can also name your favourite story within those series and runs, and those stories will be mentioned when the results are revealed.

my ballot would be pretty different this time around -- i'd read embarrassingly few comics 10 years ago.

i think seeing everybody's individual ballots would be the best reason to do a new poll; i wouldn't hope for terribly different results. hooded utilitarian ran a pretty good comics poll a while back, with lots of really interesting, diverse ballots, and the final results were almost identical to the TCJ greatest-hits list from 15 years ago.

Yeah, I actually feel that just a nominations thread without counting/ranking would be better. The results are usually boring so you could save yourself the work. Just reading recurring nominations seems enough and I'd like an unrestricted number of nominations. And if too few people nominate, it won't feel like a bummer.

I'd probably vote for quite a few short stories of titles I really don't want to get in results.

I don't really see the point of just posting ballots without a vote... That sort of a thread would be the equivalent to ILM's "your top 20 albums in genre X" threads, which almost never lead to any proper discussion, and I doubt doing that here would either. Those threads are mostly just people posting lists and others patting their back because they like Album Y too, and I don't think that's very interesting.

as opposed to people saying "Too high", too low" and "I voted for that"?

Why wouldn't it provoke discussion? We can still dispute and comment on each other's choices. I was reading the fantasy/SF/speculative books and animation poll threads recently, the results bit is always inferior to the nomination discussions.

And I'd prefer that we could choose as many things as possible just out of interest to see what turns up.

I think more in-depth descriptions of the comics with reasonings would be great. Because it would suck if we just named the usual suspects on a list with no commentary.

Whatever way you choose, I'm most looking forward to saying why I didn't respond well to some classic comics and why I don't think even most of my favourite comics deserve classic status.

I think I'd find a best comic of the last decade poll more interesting than another all time one.

I honestly have no idea what are considered the stone cold classics of the last ten years and it'd be cool to find out.

Now you're talking. Ten years ago is about when I started reading more comics after a decade away (except for Cerebus, L&R and a couple other indie titles).

Maybe a "best comics of the 00s" poll? 2004 to 2014 would be a weird period to poll, and extending it to 2000 would still mean most of the usual suspects are left out.

Published then or written then? Popeye/Thimble Theatre - despite the fine showing in these results - has only really become widely available in the last decade through the Fanta reprints. Same goes for the early Gasoline Alley material once Skeezix turns up. Or the complete Trigan Empire.

Also, most of the 00s comics on the original list (Y the Last Man, Planetary, Promethea) hadn't even finished when the first poll was done, it'd be interesting to see whether people rate them as high now that they can read the whole story.

(x-post)

I'm thinking of comics first published in the 00s... If we include reprints of older material, there'd be endless debates on what's eligible and what's not.

Also, even though there's the all-time comic strip poll, I think a 00s poll would have to include strips as well. It'd be weird to poll this millennia without including webcomics.

I thought you wanted debates! JOKES BRUV

Anyway, on top of the comics already mentioned, a lot of pre-2004 stuff that wasn't available in English when this poll ran has now been translated: Persepolis, Thorgal, Dungeon, Epileptic, the Albebaran series by Leo, You Are There by Forest & Tardi, other books by Lewis Trondheim, Joann Sfar, Manu Larcenet...

So (some of) these don't count then?

Most of them would count, I think only Tardi and Thorgal would be left out. I'd say that comics that started in the 90s but have been running well into the 00s should also count. Something like The Invisibles wouldn't be eligible (because it had only a handful of issues in 2000 before it finished), but Dungeon would (it started in 1998, but the majority of the books have come out in the 00s).

idgaf tbh, setting arbitrary boundaries for polls only ever causes "endless debates on what's eligible and what's not" ime.

Something like The Invisibles wouldn't be eligible (because it had only a handful of issues in 2000 before it finished)

I reckon if people wanted to vote for just those issues then why not? (seems unlikely anyone would)

Similarly if someone wanted to vote for just the last 50 or whatever issues of Cerebus they could (haha).

Of course there could also be a rule that if something was first translated into English in the 00s, it'd be eligible. This'd be a bit weird for me, because then you could vote for books like Valérian and Laureline or Blake and Mortimer that I used to read as a kid, but I'd be willing to accept that if people want it.

(xxpost)

I don't think it'd make sense to allow people to vote for individual issues, because the votes would be totally split. When it comes to ongoing series, I'd say only writer/artist runs or stories clearly demarcated as a whole (like Final Crisis) should be eligible.

What I meant was, you could vote for a series that spilled into the 00s, but you would only be considering the portion of the run that was published in that decade when voting. A vote for Cerebus would not be a vote for High Society, Jaka's Story et al but rather a vote for a cartoon aardvark annotating the Torah.

Or a vote for Promethea would only be a vote for issues 5-32.

I think the first 10 Planetary issues were in the 90s as well.

That doesn't make much sense. You'd vote for the whole story, not just the 00s part. Cerebus is ineligible because most of is pre-00s, Planetary is eligible because most of it isn't.

When it comes to ongoing series, I'd say only writer/artist runs or stories clearly demarcated as a whole (like Final Crisis) should be eligible.

I personally have a hard time divorcing that from Morrison's larger Batman epic. Are we getting really granular and saying Batman/Return of Bruce Wayne/Batman & Robin/Batman Inc. are also all separate entities for the sake of this particular poll?

Nah, Morrison's whole Batman run would be considered as one entry. Ditto for any other continuous writer and/or artist runs. But Batman #682-683 would also count if you vote for Final Crisis, since they were a part of that finite story and were labeled as such.

This am confusing.

But I like said upthread, if you vote for a longer run, you could also name, say, three of your favourite stories within that run, and then if that run makes it to the top 50, I'd list the individual stories that got most mentions.

(xx-post)

Okay, I'll try to make it more clear:

* A continuous run by writer and/or artist with the same character(s) appearing throughout: counts as one entry. Example: Morrison's Batman, Simone's Secret Six, Trondheim's The Spiffy Adventures of McConey.

* A crossover or other multi-artist/writer story that's demarcated as one whole (usually by giving individual books the same label): counts as one entry. Examples: Infinite Crisis, Civil War, Dungeon.

* Individual books that don't share the same characters or aren't otherwise labeled as one whole count as separate entries, even if they are by the same artist/writer. Examples: books by Jason, which are stylistically similar to each other (they all feature anthropomorphic animals), but each one has a unique plot and characters.

Is Birds of Prey 104-109 part of Gail Simone's Secret Six? If not, are the mini series and the ongoing separate entities because they're an essential linking piece (from memory)?

Would we nominate Blab! or Blab! #10 or "The Trumpets They Play!" (from Blab! #10)? Would we nominate Love and Rockets New Stories or "The Love Bunglers"?

Comics are a really messy medium for this stype of quantification.

How about Don Rosa's Duck Comics? They're hardly a 'run', they don't fit with anything from the nineties - which is really the period where most of his greatest work was made - but they're probably what I reread the most and with biggest enjoyment during the period.

Would we nominate Blab! or Blab! #10 or "The Trumpets They Play!" (from Blab! #10)?

None, they're all from the '90s (Blab! overall ran from '88 to the mid-00s, but was most commonly published in the '90s)

Would we nominate Love and Rockets New Stories or "The Love Bunglers"?

Are you nominating The Love Bunglers, or the contrast between Beto's sci-fi and pulp material with Xaime's chcaracter work? Do you want to be voting for the Ti-Girls?

How about Don Rosa's Duck Comics? They're hardly a 'run', they don't fit with anything from the nineties - which is really the period where most of his greatest work was made - but they're probably what I reread the most and with biggest enjoyment during the period.

They definitely count as separate stories, because there are pauses between them and there's no real continuity from one story to the next. Except for "Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck", but that's from the 90s.

Would we nominate Love and Rockets New Stories or "The Love Bunglers"?

I guess technically L&R would be more of a 80s/90s comic, but since there been quite a lot of material released in the 00s too, I would allow for individual stories to be nominated, such as "The Love Bunglers". Love & Rocketes as a whole definitely wouldn't count as one entry; I don't think any anthology comic should be nominated as a whole, unless it's all by one artist or writer/artist team.

Actually, scratch that last comment: I would allow for both Beto's and Xaime's 00s work to be nominated as a whole, so that would mean one entry for each.

Is Birds of Prey 104-109 part of Gail Simone's Secret Six? If not, are the mini series and the ongoing separate entities because they're an essential linking piece (from memory)?

The two minis are definitely part of the whole run, since the second mini continues directly from the first, and the ongoing from the second. Crossovers between two series would technically count as being part of both (so the Final Crisis Batman issues are both part of FC and Morrison's general Batman run).

I guess technically L&R would be more of a 80s/90s comic

uh, New Stories started in 2008. It's far more of a '10s comic than even a '00s comic.

Actually, scratch that last comment: I would allow for both Beto's and Xaime's 00s work to be nominated as a whole, so that would mean one entry for each.

what the holy heck

why would you nominate Fatima The Blood Spinners as being the same thing as Marble Season, or Chance In Hell as being the same thing as Julio's Day, or Sloth as being the same thing as Birds Of Prey?

Okay, I have to admit I've never really read Beto's comics. Xaime's part of New Stories are pretty much a direct continuation of what he did before in L&R, so it's all part of a big whole for me. I guess that's not the case with the other guy?

Anyway, like I said above, nominating and voting for runs makes much more sense than individual issues/stories, because with the latter there'd probably be so much vote splitting we might not get coherent results at all.

none of those six are even IN New Stories! one is a DC superhero comic!

If Tuomas is willing to put in the time/effort, I'd be up for this...

Let's not get too knotted up over what counts. Tuomas can group stuff or not as he likes. If people disagree with his categorisations, they can presumably re-do the numbers themselves if they care so much. I'm more interested in being exposed to what other people are loving than worrying so much whether it's #8 or #15.

none of those six are even IN New Stories! one is a DC superhero comic!

Ah, okay. My comment was a bit misworded, what I meant is that you can nominate their 00s work in Love & Rockets as two wholes. Obviously any comics they've done outside it count as separate entries.

So. what's the deal with the comic strip poll? Is it gonna finish anytime soon? Maybe I could already start the nominating process for this poll while it's running?

sic plans to jump back in in september. go for it.

Are you doing the 00s Tuomas?

Yeah, that was the idea.