Dialogue in Comics

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Okay, here we go, as requested. I haven't really collected my thoughts here, but what I was thinking was, is comic dialogue mostly dreadful, or is just me? Even the supposed masters -- imagine stuff by Moore or Morrison spoken out loud -- it would just sound portentous and ridiculous (anyone who's seen that Gaiman TV series Neverwhere will no doubt shudder at the memories.)

So, I guess the questions are:
-- Who's a genuinely good dialogue writer in comics? (I think maybe Sim, Tomine, Clowes and Marjane Satrapi -- then Peter David and Bendis at the pulp end.)
-- The fact that most comic dialogue sounds dumb read out loud, or wouldn't play on TV -- does that actually matter?

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

(And of course it works the other way round, for which see the abysmal Fray.)

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Rucka! Never tried reading aloud though. By association, also Brubaker. Both do the tough, post-noirish Realism (Realism as a genre, not the same as verisimilitude) thing pretty well, though Rucka has better one-liners, while Brubaker is closer to reality.

To me TV dialogue is usually suck if taken by itself, but in the mouths of adept actors it becomes a non-issue.

For that matter, judging comics dialogue by TV standards seems unintuitive and a bit arbitrary.

O.Leee.B. (Leee), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 02:04 (twenty-two years ago)

-- Who's a genuinely good dialogue writer in comics? (I think maybe Sim, Tomine, Clowes and Marjane Satrapi -- then Peter David and Bendis at the pulp end.)

If you're talking about dialogue that feels "real": Ralf König, Clare Bretécher, Peter Bagge, Gérard Lauzier. The first two especially are masters of "everyday" speech; they're dialogue certainly sounds more credible than most of the stuff on TV.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 08:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess a more meaninful question -- one not entirely restricted to dialogues -- is do we let comics get away with a certain amount of dumbheaded cheesiness -- a latitude we may not give in other literary forms? For example, I love comics, but I tend to dismiss people who read SF paperbacks as overly nerdy.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Wednesday, 17 March 2004 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I forget exactly who it was who said that Peter Milligan was the best writer in comics even though nobody could imagine saying any of his dialogue in real life... but they were otm. At the moment I'd class Milligan as being better than Morrison, equal to Bagge and Moore. A big part of this is that his captions have the aura of speech - it avoids both the "Location - time." unobtrusivity of modern times and the "FRACTIONS OF A MOMENT - Rocky swininging his fist::: ACE flying the Challengoplane:::: The Multi man FALLING:::::: THESE are the THREADS ON WHICH A LIFE may - HANG!!!!?!" overblown, overpoetic claptrap most commonly associated with everything after about the mid-sixties when Stan Lee decided he could fit just about any Z-grade bollocks into a comic and have it called 'modern Homer' by suckers - sorry, college students - because it was in a little rectangular box. A lesson well learnt by all writers in the seventies as they strove to 'give the gift of literature'.

Realism: John Wagner. Anybody can make rogue CIA agents etc 'realistic' - make a man with two giant shoulderpads and a bike with aircraft tyres into a gritty police procedural, then swap back to outright lunacy whenever it suits and have the whole thing hold internal integrity from week to week... well, Wagner's so great it's not even funny.

Vic Fluro, Wednesday, 17 March 2004 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Dialogue I could imagine being said in real life should really go hand in hand with situations I could imagine taking place in real life, i.e. in a Vertigo or spandex book it's a grotesque affectation, the scripting equiv of Alex Ross.

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Thursday, 18 March 2004 00:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I agree with that - when Galactus turns up or invaders from the 19th dimension defibrilate the Cosmic Carnival (etc) then speaking without enormous alliterative capitalisation seems wildly inappropriate.

By GOLLY! Typing that scintillating sense-shattering sentence WITHOUT any of the above was... AGAINST NATURE ITSELF!

I reckon the following things:

a) "normal" speech sounds daft in non-normal type situations e.g. in Alias everything's fine until Luke Cage turns up, and suddenly the LACK of him saying "Christmas!" seems stupid.
b) it'd be annoying anyway if everyone went around going "er... um... dunno, what eh?" all the time. The typefaces would need to be TINY to get it all in!
c) we don't expect characters in novels to speak in "normal" English - in modern novels people still go on and on for paragraphs at a time without stopping to look at GURLS or the telly and forgetting what they were on about.
d) and when people in novels DO talk in "normal" its usually for comedic effect anyway, isn't it?


MJ Hibbett, Thursday, 18 March 2004 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Dialogue doesn't have to "normal" or lifelike -- it just has to be good.

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Thursday, 18 March 2004 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

five months pass...
Revive!

Tom (Groke), Saturday, 4 September 2004 11:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I think this relates to an old hobbyhorse of mine, the assumption that realism=good, and that therefore dialogue that would sound realistic read aloud is obviously a good thing. It should read well when it's on the page, since that is what it's for. If you're trying to produce realism, then fooling us into thinking that what we are reading resembles real dialogue is a good thing, but that isn't the same as it being like real dialogue - literary or cinematic 'realism' have their own sets of conventions and assumptions. If realism isn't the overall aim, and it isn't in the great majority of comics, then realism is not a requirement of the dialogue. Galactus is obviously a fantastic example: "Look, I know I'm being a, y'know, big fucking pain in the ass, but I fucking have to consume the, y'know, Earth, right?"

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 4 September 2004 13:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Moore's dialogue is fairly naturalistic in his less self-conciously postmodern work, despite a little too much exposition, and too many sentences starting with 'Yeah, well.' Some of the exchanges between Dan and Laurie in Watchmen are beautifully done.

Wooden (Wooden), Saturday, 4 September 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Moore's dialogue in his less self-consciously post-modern work is pretty naturalistic, despite a little too much exposition and too many sentences starting with 'Yeah, well.' Some of the exchanges between Laurie and Dan in Watchmen are beautifully done, for example.

Wooden (Wooden), Saturday, 4 September 2004 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)

D'oh!

Wooden (Wooden), Saturday, 4 September 2004 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Martin OTM about realism, and I don't buy that realism would mean "what's on the page is a transcript of what would be spoken" anyway, any more than I buy that a painting with texture is more realistic than one without. If a scriptwriter for a movie and a novelist write exactly the same dialogue, it will play very differently.

Tep (ktepi), Saturday, 4 September 2004 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

(If college writing classes were any good, the first day of class would be nothing but the statement written on the blackboard: "You will suck if you try to learn dialogue by writing down what people say and treating it as a blueprint," with an hour to let it sink in.)

(There would be no more classes after the first one.)

Tep (ktepi), Saturday, 4 September 2004 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I retract all statements previously made on the subject. I was probably really bored at work or something.

Dialogue should have alliteration. It makes everything better.

Vic Fluro, Saturday, 4 September 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

ha, I proposed a rephrasing for an email by my boss this week. My suggestion was something like, if I can remember it, "Pray print presently pertinent processing procedural plans promptly, please." He didn't use it.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 4 September 2004 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...
Starting a new scene with dialogue in medias res -- C/D?

Leeeeeeeeee (Leee), Sunday, 23 October 2005 23:25 (twenty years ago)

Potentially classic, but for some reason usually clumsily done. And I really hate segues from one scene to another that involve the beginning of a sentence > jump cut > unrelated dialogue that just happens to finish the sentence.

I do feel guilty for getting any perverse amusement out of it (Rock Hardy), Monday, 24 October 2005 00:03 (twenty years ago)

My complaint was that it's done too often, which of course increases the chances that it'll be done clumsy like.

Rucka and Brubaker do it a lot, though they handle the transition well, I think. Still, I don't know what they hope to accomplish from it -- there's not a lot of benefit that I can see, especially for the number of times it gets used.

The worst example I've come across was a cut that started in the middle of a WORD.

Leeeeeeeeee (Leee), Monday, 24 October 2005 00:14 (twenty years ago)

Rock, how do you feel about the first line of a new scene appearing as a (possibly apposite) caption over the last panel of the previous scene? AKA the Alan Moore thing.

I am about done with a page (or two!) laid out as a grid of different people responding to the same question.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 24 October 2005 00:36 (twenty years ago)

I can see why that effect is used, but it usually feels contrived when it's done. It's like watching a movie and suddenly being aware of the score, or some crazy framing choice the director made. I miss the days when a caption with "Meanwhile..." was all that was needed, but I think Gilbert Hernandez had the final word on that in "BEM" when "Meanwhile..." was the first word of the story. He pomo'ed it out of existence!

I do feel guilty for getting any perverse amusement out of it (Rock Hardy), Monday, 24 October 2005 01:05 (twenty years ago)

Moore was good at the cross-over caption, Veitch continued it well but a bit cheesily when he took over Swamp Thing, everyone else stinks up the page when they try it.

kit brash (kit brash), Monday, 24 October 2005 03:23 (twenty years ago)

> I am about done with a page (or two!) laid out as a grid of different people responding to the same question.

AKA The "Powers" thing.

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 24 October 2005 03:36 (twenty years ago)

The in media res thing is fine, but what it usually means is more pages of people talking (usually boring exposition) and less pages of fun things (i.e. fites! and/or storytelling).

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Monday, 24 October 2005 08:39 (twenty years ago)

(haha backin up martin's point abt conventions of realism, i watched a v.ancient INSPECTOR MORSE w.my sister and BOY wz the "realistic dialogue" tired and sucky and lumpenly over-signalled) (= i correctly guessed the denouement after ten mins)

(irrelevant to martin's point it starred a v.young pre-fame LIZ HURLEY as a LESBIAN SCHOOLGIRL)

(sistrah becky noticed this: i have poor hurley-antenna)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 24 October 2005 11:48 (twenty years ago)

I've been reading the lead-up to Bruce Wayne: Murderer w/ Rucka and Brubaker on Detective & Batman, and there's some really fantastic dialogue. And the art on Detective, by Shawn Martinbrough is so amazing. It's very Dan Clowes-ian. Sometimes I can't believe it's a Batman comic.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 24 October 2005 13:46 (twenty years ago)

This was during its breif three tone phase. Agreed the art was very Clowsian, and nice and clean, but the colouring really worked too. Its a pity that when DC make really good decisions like that, that they seem to get reverse by fan opinion. After all, there are enough Batman books to cover different art tastes like that too (similar thing with the Catwoman noir I guess).

Pete (Pete), Monday, 24 October 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

I guess we should probablly move further discussion of this to on of the Bat-Threads, but...

Yeah, at the same time that Rucka's Batman was being gorgeously distilled by Martinbrough in Detective, Brubaker's was being cartoonified TO THE MAXXXXXXXXXX by Scott McDaniels, whose tenure (I think he's on Robin now, after stints on every other Bat-Book) continues to boggle me, in Batman. But it seemed like a rare moment of overall high-quality among the Bat-Books (in the bundle, there's also a really, really excellent issue of "Harley Quinn").

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 24 October 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

Mark, I have never been known to object to lesbian schoolgirls as irrelevant, and I never will. Or on any other grounds.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 24 October 2005 16:58 (twenty years ago)

eight months pass...
so wait a sec, Bendis doesn't have Luke Cage saying "Christmas!" every other sentence? What the hey!

barefoot manthing (Garrett Martin), Thursday, 13 July 2006 18:31 (nineteen years ago)

he's allowed to say "fuck" now, so...

kit brash (kit brash), Thursday, 13 July 2006 21:31 (nineteen years ago)


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