Spider-Man!

The occasional -- and only occasional -- use of a villain like Nightmare or Dr Doom, in a story where Spidey feels totally out of his depth because it's someone he can't just web up and punch. (The "very strong character Spidey has to take a beating from and overcome," a la Juggernaut or the Hulk, isn't quite a variation on this, because it's his usual villain amped up, instead of a completely different kind of villain.)

Dud:

Green Goblins, Hobgoblins, Demogoblins, Nobgoblins, the whole bunch.

The "Peter's never going to be completely over Gwen" trope. This is what teenage "Liz won't even look at me, I'll never have a girl I didn't build out of spare parts" looks like in its thirties. The high school dorks who fixate on girls as weird aliens, maybe empty, maybe idealized, because they never get to talk to them -- they grow up to become the guys who don't go a week without thinking about their first serious girlfriend.

Likewise, Black Cat -- somehow, the "Girl X likes me when I'm out of the costume, Girl Y likes me when I'm in it" dilemma worked much better for me in Spidey than it did in the DC comics that started it.

Undisclaimed classic:

Peter as science teacher. Same reason -- it's a natural outgrowth, it's true to the character without needing to keep him artificially young forever. A science teacher who gives a shit is as much an outcast as a bookish wallflower, in a different way -- and it works especially well since it wasn't a direct transition, like Screech becoming vice fricking principal or whatever the hell that was.

The biggest reason I've never been much of a Spider-Fan though is that it's generally very difficult to write witty dialogue and most of the Spider-Man writers over the years have failed pretty dismally. This was particularly the case, it seems to me, in the mid-80s when I was first exposed to US comics. An eight-page fight between Spider-Man and the Beetle is already not particularly attention grabbing and having it filled up with crappy jokes makes it even harder to get through.

I have to disagree w/ your Goblin duddery, Tep - used w/ some restraint, the Goblin is classic. Lee & Ditko used him TWICE in their 30+ issues together, and then he shows up ONCE when Romita Sr. came on board (that 2-part story w/ the great cover of PP tied up, flying behind the Goblin Glider UNMASKED!), & then ONCE when Gil Kane was the artist (the 3-part CCA-free drug issues), and then Gerry Conway "killed" him. A few scattered appearances of Harry-Osborn-as-freak, but that's it. (I might be wrong w/ the appearance count, tho.) GG managed to @ once have this unavoidable presence in PP's life (what w/ PP being friends with the GG's son, and each of them knowing each other's secret identity) while simultaneously not overstaying his welcome. His appearances meant something, maaaan.

Even when the Hobgoblin was introduced, he was used relatively sparingly, though he did show up every year like clockwork to cause trouble. But even then that was cool, because of the Special Event feel his appearances had - "neato, another Hobgoblin story, rock on!" Right on, maaaaaan.

After they brought Norman back from the dead, though, and the Powers That Be installed him as this omniscient presence in his life, and decided he should appear in all 13 Spidey titles w/ alarming regularity, then we're steering the plane into the mountain. Green Goblin is a mysterious movie monster that's most effective spending 75%-90% of the time shadows, waiting for the perfect opportunity to strike & muck stuff up. Prancing him around in the spotlight destroys that dangerous aura (& also makes a point at showing folks how goofy his costume is).

Oh & of course Tep & Tom are otherwise OTM.

The other teenage heroes I can think of in most funny books nearly mirror their adult counterparts in terms of stability - they are Young, they are In School, and That Is How It Is. (There is the sidekick-finding-themselves trope, of course, but going from Robin to Nightwing, for instance, is a lateral move at best, and it has very little to do with the character behind the costume.)

The only other Big Two character I can remember going through such a gradual maturation process was Wally West, & even then, there was a rather sizable gap to bridge between "spoiled womanizing hot-head" to "proud owner of Flash legacy & standard bearer for superheroism". You read an early Flash story, and a recent one, and the character's not that recognizable (aside from name, rank & serial number). You read an early Spidey story, and a recent one, and you can see the same Peter Parker in both, even though the two characters are @ totally different places in their life.

(And of course, the minute I typed that I thought of something I want to pitch to Marvel.)

ULTIMATE ROCKET RACER!

How far are the Essentials these days? Most of what I've read of that period has been in scattershot reprints (did Marvel Tales go that far? I guess it must have, I think it eventually started reprinting Marvel Team-Up).

Oh:

Classic:

The costume. Is this the best "we're publishing in four colors, so we need something bright and basic and iconic" costume of the era? I think it is.

Another plus to the Spidey costume - red & blue are Superman's colors; I'd like to think that was intentional.

Marvel Tales and Classic X-Men were both really good idea, and there doesn't seem to be anything like that anymore -- there are reprint collections, and those Marvel Milestones reprinting single issues, but nothing reprinting things in order like that. You'd think it would still sell, but maybe it's a matter of how old art looks on new paper and whatnot.

The DeFalco/Frenz run that followed wasn't bad either, alien costume and all.

Anyway :

Classic - Definitely the costume. Creepy, cool and iconic all at once. Always my favourite costume as a kid, still is today.

Peter as geek. Tep OTM about Parker's romantic woes. He is the perfect hero for anyone who felt Lethem's "Fortress of solitude" was just a little too close to the bone.

The Rogues Gallery. He has the best of any of the Big Gun heroes. Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Lizard, Kraven, Scorpion, Vulture, Chameleon...all the Lee/Ditko characters are fantastic. Even his second raters are cooler than most of Batman's villains : I always liked the Sandman, the Prowler, Tarantula, Jackal etc.

Dud :

Most of the 90s was pretty bad. The rise of Venom. The Clone Saga. The Scarlet Spider.

Spiderman never seems to get the top-class creative teams the character deserves. Everybody wants to have a go at Batman & Superman, either in minis or ongoing series, but Spidey just always seems to get uninspiring, serviceable writers and artists. When McFarlane left his "Spiderman" series, it was supposed to morph into a "Legends of the Dark Knight" kind of thing with revolving big-name creative teams on self-contained stories. Never happened. The closest we get is Millar's current series or Ultimate Spiderman, but come on, I want to see Morrison/Quitely on Spidey. .

Actually, I don't know if GM would work on Spidey - granted, he's a great writer, can walk on water, serves 20, etc., but I don't know if his strengths dovetail w/ Spidey's strengths. Unless Spidey goes cosmic, or ends up putting Spidey in fish-out-of-water spots (a la what Tep mentioned), which would be interesting.

Speaking of which - the DeFalco / Frenz run had a one-off Secret Wars II x-over, w/ the Beyonder & Mephisto making Spidey into Job (complete w/ boils!) which was ehh. HOWEVER, the two-issue story w/ Spidey fighting Firelord all over New York City - THAT was awesome.

Oh man oh man, the Firelord fight was awesome. That's sort of a hybrid of the "Spidey fights a villain of the sort he doesn't usually" and "Spidey fights a villain who's just wicked supertough" stories -- it worked really well. I remember liking the "what do you do with a golden notebook, what do you do with a golden notebook, what do you do with a golden notebook, ear-lie in the morning" subplot, too, which came out of Secret Wars II -- but I don't know if it was as good as I remember, nor if it went on as long as I remember.

(Remember when it seemed like Spidey had the black costume forever and ever? And you look back, and it's like, hey, it premiered in Spidey #252, he got rid of it in #258, and then #259 was the whole Secret Origin of Mary Jane thing ... that was only a few months!)

Two other moments that stick, and I can't remember issues: 1) the short piece where Spidey revealed his identity to the little boy with cancer (who soon dies). I thought of that story during the second movie, where the crowd on the El protects Spidey. and 2) that single page (recent issue) where Peter wakes up next to Mary Jane and thanks his lucky stars. Moving & well-written.

And it's like what Tom says about the title's other defining characteristics -- they don't work when you do them all the time. Parker can't be constantly on the brink of eviction; his relationship(s) can't be constantly in jeopardy; he can't triumph over improbable odds every month, or they aren't improbable anymore.

Is that maybe why Marvel has had to let him grow? It's a way to constantly introduce new challenges -- college vs high school, grad school vs college, dealing with new editors at the Bugle, "getting a date" vs "keeping a marriage together," "keeping identity secret" vs "dealing with the stress of Mary Jane knowing about it." Granted, you always get writers or editors coming in and not seeing it this way, wanting to strip away the growth and return Spidey to his "roots."

I wish the FF had been handled this way. I mean, their essential lack of growth -- Franklin doesn't really count, Jefty is always five -- hasn't prevented great stories and great runs, but wouldn't the "superhero team = family" thing there work better if the family actually grew like real families do? Ah well -- at this point, it would just seem forced.

Granted, you always get writers or editors coming in and not seeing it this way, wanting to strip away the growth and return Spidey to his "roots."

Yes, and eventually you get all of the writers and editors like that, which brings us to this goddamn link again, because as long as someone thinks that change is a good thing for all characters, well continue to need that goddamn link again.

i) Spider-Man has changed!!

ii) Spider-Man was created with a set of problems that demanded resolution i.e. change is implicit in Spider-Man right from the outset. (in a way that no it's not for the FF, say.)

The Ben Reilly fiasco is a fantastic case study in apalling change management - it's not an argument against change.

As fun as it is to hate on the Ben Reilly thing, I have to agree w/ the "decent idea, awful execution" concensus. (No Diego, though.) (Unless he has a moustache.)

I'm not holding my breath though, as I know the internet would explode at the slightest mention of this.

(Feel free to substitute your own metaphor.)

(For that matter, the inciting incident of the Reilly storyline -- "the clone is back, or was Peter the clone all the time, oh no" -- was less radical than JMS's Spider-Totem arc, but the Spider-Totem arc wasn't written with a lot of "oh no" and "gasp" and "stop the presses!")

xpost with Occam; Ultimate Clone Saga could be a hell of a lot of fun

(The true failure of Ben Reilly was his lack of a clonestache.)

That Firelord story was great - spidey stories are always good when hes basically terrified of the villain and doesn't see how he can win, but goes ahead and fights anyway. The Lee/Ditko stories quite commonly did this - the introductions of Doc Ock & the Scorpion are good examples. The early Venom stories did it really well, too...

On the whole Ben Reilly/clone thing. It all happened during one of my 6 month breaks from comics, and when I came back, it all seemed utterly baffling and ridiculous. Marvel acting out of complete desperation. But yeah, I can imagine Bendis handling it well in USM...

I bet Marvel wishes it had been under 6 months! The whole affair took almost 2 years, if not longer :) I worked in a (second hand) comic shop between October 95 and August 98 and I seem to remember the clone stuff being 'on' for that whole span of time.

Things I've Learned From This Thread:

- Spidey thrives in adverse conditions (as long as they're not of the dramatic luv kind) (cf. gold notebook, tussling w/ the landlord, getting to class on time, ogling the three blonde sunbathing ladies)
- Spidey thrives when he's in over his head & forced to rise to the occasion
- Spidey's rogue gallery is full of great characters, but hasn't had much done w/ it since the 1970s (though that can be said of most Marvel franchises)
- JJJ is a fantastic supporting character, & more supporting casts should feature sympathetic antagonists (not said yet, but I think it's worth saying) (unless it's a given)
- The Defalco & Stern / JR JR & Frenz run (from around #225 to #283, right before GANG WAR) is underrated (don't forget "THE COMMUTER"!)

True. But I mean that I came back to comics and the whole thing was in full swing. I was like "who the hell is this Ben Reilly and why does he look like Peter Parker? And how come he's got Spiderman's powers? And what is Peter doing? And who's the Scarlet Spider? " I think my first exposure to it all was flicking through an issue of that mini by DeFalco and JRJR - the Missing Years or whatever. Ben Reilly with a mullet on the road using his spider powers to help people or something. Utterly baffling without and context, it was.

I have the full comic downloaded Nicole, it is GHASTLY however I can gmail you it (you mad fool).

I also have Lois vs the Blackatron if anyone needs that.

Still, weep not for J. Buscema. There'd be artists now who'd sell their very souls to delineate some crappy mind-control scene from the pen of the master.

Sneak preview of Lois Lane (contains 'spoilers')

Yes please! (and the Lois one too if you don't mind...)

Here's Lois:

http://s13.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0FGBZU7UDZ8OQ29WT83BPOZDMO

http://s29.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1I7ALHMK27VHH1AMPEA3WCDEP4

I'm way less up on my obscure DC titles than I would be for the Marvel equivalents -- I wonder if the Cancelled Comics Cavalcade included anything relevant.

"The Lost Years", by DeMatteis. It's actually one of the best Spidey stories ever, as is its sequel, Redemption, both of which Marvel will never republish. Great examples of why BR's my favourite Parker.

Someone here's gotta have read 'The Life Of Reilly' web-series, right?

Mmmmmaybe.

1) Ultimate Spider-Man, because it's in its own continuity and you won't ever have to worry about being lost in the plot because of something happening in another book.

Or 2) Wait until the Waid/Wieringo book mentioned above starts. I don't know how much it'll intersect with anything else, but the other main books are all in the midst of ongoing plots right now, each of them at least somewhat dumb. We're kind of in a Spider-ebb right now.

Whether #1 or #2 makes more sense depends partly on whether you care if it's going to be a continuation of a Spider-Man you'd remember from other comics you've read, I guess, although the changes aren't huge -- in Ultimate he's still a teenager, and it takes place now instead of the 60s, but it's still Spider-Man.

I read some of the Bendis Spiderman things but they weren't very good. Leee snorted in derision at the meta-ness of it all.

well, the trades came out recent-ish...

Got Tangled Web Vol. 2 yesterday. VERY CUTE DC SPIDER-MAN STORY. The Bruce Jones/Lee Weeks story is okay, sorta shitty, like a very special episode of Growing Pains, but also I like Lee Weeks, and I like Mike Seaver.
The Kaare Andrews story can bite me.
BUT THE DARWYN COOKE STORY IS SO WONDERFUL.
Was the entire Tangled Web series like this? Vignettes AROUND Spidey (I suppose that what "Shadow of teh Bat" was supposed to be and Gotham Central ACTUALLY WUZ)? What are other highlights? MORE DARLING DARWIN?

But still: MAHFOOD. Worth checking the back issue bins.

flash thompson mentioned in Marvel's Teen-Age Romances #85, published seven months before the first issue of spider-man (from tom peyer's tumblr):

http://25.media.tumblr.com/ef7e329cdfb0858f9dc0f09d6fe1b468/tumblr_msgyoyBmYq1qz9ew8o1_1280.png

http://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/2ub5j1/i_cant_believe_what_i_found_here/

wtf!

Aw, feel a bit bad for the shopkeeper.

need confirmation there before knowing how to feel