Political comic book heroes/villains.

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On the other thread someone mentioned Anarky (the Batman villain), who was Alan Grant's idea of creating a superhero character that's not just implicitly but explicitly political. The whole character was rather messed-up, partly because Grant threw in all sorts of weird mysticist and esoteric references that had little to with "real" anarchism, and partly because it's very hard to describe real-life politics in a superhero comic. But this got me thinking of Anarky and V from Alan Moore's V for Vendetta. Both of them are clearly anarchists in the political sense of term, yet they never talk about "anarchism" as an ideology or a collective movement, referring instead to the more abstract idea of "anarchy". More crucially, neither of them works in an anarchist group/organization to accelerate the revolution they seek, and instead they act as lone vigilantes trying orchestrate the change by themselves. Thus, they're doing something that is almost opposite to real anarchist politics, because anarchists believe no human being should have power another. Anarky at least learns this lesson at the end of his mini-series, and I guess V's case is a bit different because he's a symbol rather than a real person, but this all leads to my question...

How hard is to tackle real-life politics in mainstream comics in an explicit way? Do artists/writers even want to try it, or do they fear that would risk the entertainment value of their work and alienate their audience? Usually mainstream comic books seem to deal with politics only by detaching them from their real-life context through, for example, sci-fi setting, like Pander Bros' Triple X or Moore's V and Watchmen. It looks like only newspaper strips like Doonesbury or Dykes to Watch Out For are willing to deal with what's happening in the political realm today - perhaps because newspaper comics have more of a transient nature instead of striving for timelessness.

But yeah, what are your thoughts on the subject? Do you think the coming V movie by the Wachowski brothers can deal with anarchism in any sensible manner, or will V be turned into another messianic superhero a la Neo from Matrix?

Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 7 March 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

President Lex.

Huk-L, Monday, 7 March 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

What was that about?

Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 7 March 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

What, President Lex?

Okay...

From my understanding, DC ran their Lex Luthor for President campaign concurrently to the 2000 US Election, so there was never any intended parallel. Of course, you'll note that DC is wholly owned by Warner Bros, who were a big contributor to the GOP (and likely to the Dems as well, US politics being what they are). However, as things progressed, some writers clearly relished the (frequently transparent) metaphoric potential of having a megalomanic richboy in the White House. There was talk that Luthor was breaking an embargo by doing trade with the despotic Darkseid, and I think there was even a time where Luthor tried to blame an alien invasion on Saddam Hussein. And in Superman/Batman, the Dark Knight Detective mused on how to take down the president without toppling the pillars of American democracy.

Huk-L, Monday, 7 March 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

Wow, sounds cool! Is Luthor still the prez in the DC universe?

Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 7 March 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

Sadly, no.
In Superman/Batman, it was revealed that Luthor had built a secret lair under the White House, where he was injecting himself with a mixture of Green Kryptonite and Venom (a sort of super-steroid that gave the world Bane, the guy who broke Batman's back way back in the early 90s), which was slowly eroding his sanity.
This culminated in Luthor donning one of those nifty green and purple battlesuits like he used to wear in the 80s and going toe-to-toe with Batman and Superman before being seemingly crushed in the collapse of the LexCorp Tower. Of course, he survived, but only us readers know that, and he was removed from office, I think officially because of the trade embargo against Darkseid and replaced by Superman's childhood chum, Pete Ross. I think Ross himself is no longer President, and the DCU is reverting back to having an anonymous, benevolent POTUS.

I find it really hard to keep up with Superman comics, so I'm sure I'm leaving a lot out.

Huk-L, Monday, 7 March 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/characters/lex/lex-president.jpg

Huk-L, Monday, 7 March 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

As far as I know, Superman's Neglected Friend Pete Ross is still the DC President - the last issue of Adventures of Supes had Lex revealing Supes' secret to Pete (as a flashback)!

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 7 March 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

Xpost, okay.

from http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/who/who-intro.php?topic=luthor-lex

The desire to be more the center of attention than Superman ever was entered Luthor's mind soon after when he began to realize how much of America's attention was dedicated to the Man of Steel. After reading an article in the local paper about Superman's dedication to the most powerful office in America and the man that held that post, he felt there was only one thing to do... run for President.

To everyone's immense surprise, not only did Luthor pick former Senator Pete Ross to be his running mate, but he actually pulled off winning the entire election! While the ballots were being counted in Florida, the one Luthor conceded that Bush and Gore could fight amongst themselves for, Luthor ran away with the election. He was quick to make improvements in security after a pre-announcement visit by Batman, who demanded the Kryptonite ring back from Luthor for his own safekeeping. Luthor defied the caped crusader and threatened to use all of his newfound clout to hunt down and exterminate the 'Gotham Vigilante' if he persisted in this pursuit. (Batman confided in Superman that they would have to be ever watchful of Luthor and when the moment came, the would remove him from office.) Through his election Luthor has plans to share his good fortune with every American citizen through vast economic restructuring and major healthcare reform. He's promised that no child will go hungry and neither an innocent suffer under the watchful eye of his administration. He actually plans to bring more involvement into the government by earths many meta-humans, and has encouraged young people across the country to embrace their examples.

Privately, Luthor was overjoyed at the fact that he had outdone the 'alien' (as he refers to Superman). He made improvements in other areas concerning security too as he had the White House repainted... with lead paint. He felt that with the United States under his direct control the country would rise to heights not seen in the 211 years there have been Presidents in office.

After several seasons of waging a shadow war against Superman, Lex Luthor's true nature was exposed to the world. In a dramatic battle over Metropolis, Luthor was defeated by Superman, and his presidency was impeached. Using his vast fortune and presidential authority, Luthor attempted to finally destroy the Man of Steel in front of the world. A titanic meteor of kryptonite was imperiling the planet. Rather than use the metahumans to destroy it, Luthor concocted an elaborate scheme to blame Superman for the impending disaster.

As President of the United States of America, Luthor ordered Captain Atom to gather a group of super agents, and arrest Superman. With Batman's help, Superman avoided detention. He also managed to gain more incriminating evidence on President Luthor. A series of major events led to Superman finally confronting Lex Luthor in the sky over Metropolis. Injecting himself with a combination of the physical enhancer called venom, and kryptonite, Lex Luthor adorned a battlesuit and personally engaged Superman in combat.

While fighting the Action Ace, Luthor revealed to Superman his affiliation with the New God Darkseid. His delusional behavior was revealed to all. A final blow by Superman sent Luthor into LexCorp Towers, where Batman awaited. Noticing the building was empty and abandoned, the Dark Knight informed Luthor that Talia Head (who operated as interim C.E.O. of LexCorp) sold off the corporation's assets, and depleted Luthor of his personal fortune. A short battle followed, and led to Lex Luthor's escape. In dramatic symbolism, Luthor's own escaped led to the destruction of his own LexCorps Towers. With his presidential regime toppled in disgrace, and his personal wealth apparently gone, Luthor is now a penniless man. He's also wanted by international authorities.

Despite his seemingly desparate position, Lex Luthor is a super genius. He is one of the world's smartest men, and therefore remains as one of the world's deadliest supercriminals. Now, his war against Superman has turned the page to start a new chapter. No longer can Lex Luthor hide behind the law and his authority. Now, he must utilize his wits and technological knowledge, in order to match Superman's might.

(The fall of Lex Luthor was chronicled in Superman/Batman #1-6)

Huk-L, Monday, 7 March 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

Ex-Machina and Rucka's run on Wonder Woman to thread.

Leeeter van den Hoogenband (Leee), Monday, 7 March 2005 20:28 (twenty years ago)

What's-a going on in Wonder Woman?
I know she can't see, but, uh, maybe taking off the blindfold would help?

Huk-L, Monday, 7 March 2005 20:36 (twenty years ago)

Oh, ha. Oh, ha ha ha.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 7 March 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)

The political bit in Wonder Woman (IIRC - Lee, please come correct me if I'm off) has to do w/ the beginning of Rucka's run. WW, the Themiscryan (sic) Ambassador to the US, writes a memoir / essay collection espousing her particular views on certain topics that some feel are controversial (including one particular businesswoman jonesin' - can't recall her name (Veronica Cale?) - to take WW down a peg or 20).

This vendetta against WW escalates to the point that some of the Pantheon-related folk not fond of WW use this tiff to their advantage, which gets Medusa (sic) involved in the story, which leads to WW & Medusa fighting in Yankee Stadium, which leads to WW blinding herself (using Medusa's blood!) to defeat Medusa. Said blinding, since it was caused by something godly (Medusa's blood) can't be wished away by godfolk, & is, for the time being, there to stay.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 7 March 2005 20:58 (twenty years ago)

There's also Pantheon-related machinations (power plays between the male & female gods) that's enfolded in all of this. I feel I did this story a disservice - Leeee, the floor is yours.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 7 March 2005 21:00 (twenty years ago)

So, WW wears the blindfold because a) she's a metaphor for justice and b) because she has Medusa's blood, maybe she's not so much blinded as her stare turns people into stone?

Huk-L, Monday, 7 March 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

Well, a) works. As for b) - Medusa's blood blinded her from being turned to stone so she could face down Medusa before the grand scheme of Medusa (& Circe, she who helped rebirth Medusa) could happen. Like I said, they were facing off in Yankee Stadium, and the fight was being televised all over the damn place. What Circe wanted was for Medusa to defeat Wonder Woman, & then gaze into one of the bazillion cameras on-site, thereby turning all viewers into stone. (Kinda dingbatty to have cameras @ this sort of thing, but, hey, what're you gonna do?) At the point in the fight before the blinding, WW was in dire straits - her shield had been broken, she'd been whacked about by Medusa, probably poisoned by her snakes, too, & was at wit's end. The blinding was justified as a desperate measure for a desperate time.

Medusa's blood didn't give WW Medusa's stone-turning curse - her eyes were being examined by human & godfolk w/out any consequences. She just can't see anymore.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 7 March 2005 21:21 (twenty years ago)

Comic books are so unrealistic. America would never elect a bald president.

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 7 March 2005 21:42 (twenty years ago)

Ike to thread!

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 7 March 2005 21:45 (twenty years ago)

Kinda dingbatty to have cameras @ this sort of thing

It's Yankee stadium, they'll make a televised event out of anything. Your summary's pretty spot-on, so I don't have anything to add, except that I'm getting the feeling (after having not read a comic in 6 weeks (not really true, but none of my usual titles)) that BKV has a subtler and more interesting handle on the politix than Rucka. I've decided this mostly on the basis of Rucka ALWAYS cutting to new scenes with dialogue in medias res, and it annoys.

Leeeter van den Hoogenband (Leee), Monday, 7 March 2005 22:41 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, Rucka's great at the politics in Queen & Country because the agents only become involved in something when it's gone off the rails politically or is about to. International relations as depicted in Q&C can be complicated but are not usually subtle, if that make sense.

On the other hand, Rucka might be great at an Ex Machina type book because he actually manages to make intra-bureaucracy scrabbling exciting!

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 7 March 2005 23:11 (twenty years ago)

Re: Leeeee's comments about BKV v. Rucka - BKV is playing in his own sandbox, where he gets to set the agenda, & do his own thing. Rucka, on the other hand, is playing in DC's sandbox, so there's probably a certain "action stuff" quota to be filled (if you're talking about the jarring switch between action scenes & talk scenes, Lee). Also, Ex Machina is about the politics 1st (& the superheroics taking an adjacent seat), while WW is about WW 1st (& everything else taking a back back seat).

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 7 March 2005 23:22 (twenty years ago)

Point, Raposa.

I was actually complaining that he constantly segues mid-dialogue into new scenes (particularly the talky scenes). It's a technique that I think he's overused.

Leeeter van den Hoogenband (Leee), Monday, 7 March 2005 23:28 (twenty years ago)

And Dave brings up a good point re: superhero books that have political content in them; usually the fundamental structure of the story is the spandex, and the politics are the skin/muscle/whatevs. Other times though, writers'll efface the superhero's powers and tell a story whose drive is political and the hero is sort of its observer, though ultimately dispensing localized vigilante justice to bring home the "There's only so much I as an individual can do! Reader, I leave it to you to change the underlying structure!" moral.

Leeeter van den Hoogenband (Leee), Monday, 7 March 2005 23:34 (twenty years ago)

The political bit in Wonder Woman (IIRC - Lee, please come correct me if I'm off) has to do w/ the beginning of Rucka's run. WW, the Themiscryan (sic) Ambassador to the US, writes a memoir / essay collection espousing her particular views on certain topics that some feel are controversial (including one particular businesswoman jonesin' - can't recall her name (Veronica Cale?) - to take WW down a peg or 20).

This vendetta against WW escalates to the point that some of the Pantheon-related folk not fond of WW use this tiff to their advantage, which gets Medusa (sic) involved in the story, which leads to WW & Medusa fighting in Yankee Stadium, which leads to WW blinding herself (using Medusa's blood!) to defeat Medusa. Said blinding, since it was caused by something godly (Medusa's blood) can't be wished away by godfolk, & is, for the time being, there to stay.


Sorry if I'm confused, but I can't see what all this has to do with real-life politics... As Lee points out, I wouldn't say a comic book is dealing with "real" politics, if the point of those politics is just to bring a certain superhero down - superheroes don't exist in the real world.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 15:32 (twenty years ago)

But Superheroes are aways metaphors for something. Like X-mutants are European Jews, and Superman is the Jewish Immigrant, and the Guardians of the Universe are the Pr0t0c0ls of Zi0n.

Huk-L, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 15:37 (twenty years ago)

To be fair to Tuomas, only that 1st paragraph has anything remotely tangential to do w/ politics, if that - the "political" aspect of WW hs more to w/ ideology & philosophy (or, actually, EXPRESSING one's ideology) than anything procedurally or explicitly political (except that WW, as an ambassador, is a political figure).

In some ways, it's a reversal of the trend Leeee points out re: the superhero as mostly passive / powerless observer of grave injustice / activism in action - here, the hero is active, actually setting the agenda that fuels a part of the story.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 15:52 (twenty years ago)

There was a weird moment in the new issue of the Flash where Flash--he's holding WW's Lasso of Truth (does Reverse-WW have a Lariat of Lies?) and he blurts out "I believe in the death penalty."
And then Wonder Woman agrees.

There was a moment earlier in the comic where the warden of the prison where they hold all the Flash's enemies says he wishes they would lift the ban on executing Meta-Humans, so it wasn't completely out of the blue, and I think it sort of ties in with the post-Identity Crisis divide among the DC heroes that's building. Because Superman and Batman are both anti-Death Penalty, because they're orphans.

Huk-L, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 15:58 (twenty years ago)

I have to say I sympathise with Tuomas here. There are quite a few comics which deal with the political implications of superheroes but the "politics" in most s/h titles tends to be another weapon in the ongoing FITEs.

I have been reading quite a lot of Marvel's New Universe line lately and - not that they're usually very good comics or anything, but because it's a universe nominally 'without' superheroes its approach to politics has to be a little more grounded. The issues after The Pitt made for very interesting reading in the guesses the writers make as to how people might respond to a major (apparent) terrorist attack on US soil.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

Warren Ellis' StormWatch to thread.

BARMS, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

Do you remember Plastique, who was the Quebecois separatist terrorist who fought Firestorm?

Trying to think of other characters who've had definite political stands on things. But I can't think of any Green Lantern villains whose personal obsession was progressive tax policy etc.

Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 17:21 (twenty years ago)

Flag-Smasher!

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

"What? I'm not a communist!"

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

There was Sonar, a Green Lantern villain whose mission seemed to be to increase the economic might of the small Eastern European nation he ruled. Ditto for Count Vertigo (a Green Arrow villain).

Huk-L, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

Rising Stars not to thread!

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 17:59 (twenty years ago)


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