Cowboys and Supermen?

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Why? How? Where? And has anyone actually read stories involving any of these wild wooly western heroes that didn't also involve time travel and spandex? (And, wooo boy, that Queer Eye For The Rawhide Guy mini does not count.)

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I picked up a cheap, used copy of the Elseworlds Justice Riders, where the JLA is a posse. It was actually pretty cool and used similar framing devices to SevSoldiers #0.

Huk-L, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:00 (twenty-one years ago)

There was an earlier, 1980s Rawhide Kid miniseries about an aging Rawhide Kid. I liked it at the time, and it got me to pick up a metric ton of the back issues of Two Gun Kid and so on, pretty cheaply.

I think the why is just that the Western was, until a few decades ago, a very popular genre. The comics were uneven, but mostly because of the short story type format -- that doesn't seem to have hurt TV shows much, but the stories usually seemed too quick and simple. There weren't as many two-parters as in the superhero comics, much less an equivalent to the Kree/Skrull War or the Korvac Saga.

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.onipress.com/covers/spaghettiwestern.jpg

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

This is all me fabricating some oral history of the western story, but I'm assuming it arose from tall tales being spun via telegraph wire about trick shot artists and vagabonds and the like during the days of the western expansion / gold rush & all that, which was carried over into the pulp books, which was then carried over into the talking pictures (from John Ford & Howard Hawkes (sic?) to Sergio Leone) and the television shows (Bonanza, Gunsmoke, Wild Wild West), and then also picked up by comic book companies when the SOTI hearings effectively killed / ghettoized the superhero genre (though I think the comic book western movement might've predated the TV western movement).

I don't recall if there was any sort of mini-resurgence in the 80s w/ the Young Gun movie(s), but maybe the acclaim of HBO's Deadwood is beginning another sort of giddyup?

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm pretty sure there were cowboy comics before TV Westerns, but they definitely boomed in response to them.

Huk-L, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, you're right - part of the catch-all genre flypaper that comics used to be, where they published every sort of pulpy fiction you could want.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

The movies predate the pulp books (the earliest silent movies were westerns), but the dime novels predated both -- tall tales predate the telegraph by a century, though, and dime novels' growth were more a function of increasing literacy and decreasing publishing costs, i.e. the creation of pleasure reading.

Comic books I think predated the TV shows, or at least developed parallel to them -- there were early "movie tie-in" western comics.

The western keeps seeming like it's going to resurge -- Unforgiven, Lonesome Dove, etc., every once in awhile something comes along and people wonder if it's the first in an avalanche -- but I'm not sure it'll happen.

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Firefly, Tep!

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but that's not really a western, it's another story using western stuff. It's like the way mystery men stories have died off, but some aspects of them survive in superhero stuff -- or for that matter, the use of war story stuff in science fiction, even though the war movie genre itself is pretty definitively dead.

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks for setting my timeline straight, y'all.

I think if westerns can just re-establish themselves w/out trying to take over the ground squatted on by the predominant dramas of choice (cf. the cop / court / hospital drama, AKA modern-day stuff), then it can do just fine. I also really don't ever see it being top dog again, though.

Also: The Quick and The Dead, which was more like a hyper-Western (& a movie I love more than I can say), though I don't think it did so well in the theatres as to have the sort of impact that an Unforgiven or Lonesome Dove could've had.

I wonder if the western's been avoided or failed to take hold in recent times because it's resolutely an American genre, which means less and less to Americans that don't have roots in America. Or maybe it's been ursurped by the kung-fu / samurai genres.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Based purely on the amount of space they occupy at the big chain bookstore I rarely go to, I'd say the Western novel market remains pretty okay, though probably Large Print is currently the most profitable arm of it.

Huk-L, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it's partly that the more recent stuff that's succeeded seems to do so in no small part because of the way it contrasts with the classic western -- which when you think about it is very very odd, because implicit in that statement is the notion that an audience that isn't watching X is enjoying Y because of the ways they know it differs from X -- Lonesome Dove is about ex-Rangers who just want to get to Montana and start their ranch, and fuck this gunslinging shit; Unforgiven's a little bit of Shane run through a Peckinpah filter; Deadwood gets the press it gets because it's dirty, in so many senses, and again contrasts with the High Noon/Purple Sage sort of imagery.

Along the way, we've had stuff like Quigley Down Under, Posse, Bad Girls, the Paul Hogan thing (I want to say Lightning Hopkins and that isn't it), and Geronimo fail, even though they're all at least slightly skewed from the norm.

I'm not sure a genre can re-establish itself when its success stories succeed because of being exceptions to classical notions, though -- or by building itself around antiheroes. It would need to establish new kinds of stories, new standards, and ironically the existing western establishment (what little of it there is, with their two or three shelves behind the romance section) would resist that.

xpost; that must be a Canadian thing -- the western market is pretty tiny, all in all

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

A good parallel is the horror genre, which hasn't sustained consistent popularity in years, is driven almost entirely by a small handful of big name authors, and can't support a professional-paying magazine (or even many anthologies that pay out, unless Stephen King has a story in it).

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:52 (twenty-one years ago)

TV Westerns were partly so popular cos they offered exoticism on the relative cheap, surely - once you'd built a generic Western set it could be endlessly re-used.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

A good parallel is the horror genre, which hasn't sustained consistent popularity in years, is driven almost entirely by a small handful of big name authors, and can't support a professional-paying magazine (or even many anthologies that pay out, unless Stephen King has a story in it).

(... "but that goes through periodic bouts of popularity in movies," is what I meant to add.)

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess actually being in the West, there might be more affinity for Westerns here.

Huk-L, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, 16 posts and no mention of DC bringing back an ongoing Jonah Hex monthly?!

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

When I worked in a bookstore, there was a massive romance section, a massive mystery section, and one bottom-row shelf of westerns consisting solely (in my memory anyway) of Louis L'Amour books, sequentially numbered, starting somewhere in the low one hundreds (v. comic booky!).

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the mention of the new Hex series on the DC: Letdown thread was what spurred this in the first place.

Huk-L, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

There's also an upcoming Vertigo western series, written by Brian Azzarello.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyway, to be totally honest, most superhero stories that're set in the Wild West bore the spurs off of me - I want cosmic zaps, not tumbleweed! Even if they involve time travel, I usually flip through them all quick-like until I get to the "good stuff" (KANG!) or it's over. Though that was my prevalent attitude when I was a wee barren git. The Black Panther western bit, near the end of the series (involving LOKI!) (and FLYING TRAINS!) was fun stuff.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely Garth Ennis must have written a Western mini or two, given his Western and war story fetish (and he's certainly done the war story comics)?

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

The last issue of Planetary was a Western, half of it anyway.

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Isn't Blueberry a western? (I've only glanced through it)
I remember talking to a friend about the "Western" genre, and the problem is now that all westerns would be retrograde, as that point in history is past, and we don't really have uncharted territory or wild, lawless lands anymore. Therefore the western is a stagnant form, because it can't be developed past the space age. I think maybe the superhero/spaceman replaced the cowboy hero in a way, because when we run out of room on earth those characters can always either go into space or use their extraterrestrial powers.

jocelyn (Jocelyn), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Most of the Western genre came after the close of the frontier, though -- I'm not sure that's necessarily a problem. I mean, historical fiction doesn't worry about using up the Crusades (but the Western is much more strictly bound, and things stretching its limits -- set in Canada or Mexico, the Yukon gold rush instead of the Californian one, etc -- don't tend to do well).

On the other hand, the initial rise in popularity of the Western matches up perfectly to the "organizational period" in American history -- the 1880s to the 1920s, roughly -- when American identity shifted from the regional level to the national. The close of the frontier in 1890 is a big part of that, and the genre is definitely tied up in all the manifest destiny, taming of the West, rugged individualist, self-sufficiency, Yankee know-how, stuff in the national mythology, stuff that hasn't been as popular or resonant in the last few decades.

(As far as Deadwood goes, look at how it fits into that: on the one hand, yeah, you have these "rugged individualists" making new lives in Deadwood, and the whole deal with Deadwood being outside federal law but eventually being reabsorbed into the Union is like a dramatized presentation of Turner's frontier thesis -- on the other hand, it's a far cry from cowboys vs Indians, almost everyone's a bit of a bastard, and the most successful settlers would be criminals anywhere else: that kind of falsely self-effacing take on national myth has been popular for about as long as the Western hasn't been.)

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone read Tim Truman's The Kents?

Huk-L, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmmm. I haven't seen Deadwood but I would be interested to see how it presents a western, after what you wrote, Tep.

jocelyn (Jocelyn), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

It's either what the Sopranos is to gangster movies or what the Sopranos is to movies about New Jersey, I'm not sure which.

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 21:36 (twenty-one years ago)

there wz a lovely piece by larry mcmurtry on the legend of wyatt earp in the last nyrb but one: sadly not linkable

he points out that the legendification of actual real historical (but soon to be mythical) cowboy-type figures began almost instantly, with newspaper reports of the trial - did you know that the earps had to go to court after the ok corral!? - and in fact pretty much with the lawyers inventing good-guy reasons for lawless incidents which pissed a lot of local citizens off

(he quotes a particularly tart bit of editorial demystification from the time)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 10:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if the western's been avoided or failed to take hold in recent times because it's resolutely an American genre, which means less and less to Americans that don't have roots in America.


Funnily enough, the two best Western comics there are are both French: Blueberry and Lucky Luke.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 23 March 2005 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)


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