ILC Reading - Jack Kirby & Stan Lee's Fantastic Four

Continued over from the discussion below, here is a new reading thread to discuss Jack Kirby & Stan Lee's Fantastic Four.

I have not read much of Jack Kirby & Stan Lee's run of the Fantastic Four and never all in a row. I'm going to work my way through the Marvel Essentials on through to check out the entire Kirby/Lee run of the F4. Many of the classic Fantastic Four stories I know more from following the book during Byrne's run in the 80s as many characters and stories were referenced in that run or from the Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe also from the same time period. I know I read the Galactus/Silver Surfer story, but the rest were pretty hit and miss.

I'm going to be working through the first Essential going issue by issue and if anyone has any cool comments, join in, especially on things you may know that were retcon'ed way down the line. I think one of the more interesting things about superhero comics is how the stories get adapted and changed over time, some for better and some for worse.

Issue 1- I was noticed in the first issue the F4 home base is referenced as 'Central City' and not New York, which I thought was interesting. Kirby's artwork is really clean, very much like some of those first issues of the Hulk and not as stylized as some of his later work. They have the inker listed as 'unknown' and considering how much more like Kirby's pencils, I wonder if Jack was inking himself on the first two. There is quite a bit of story packed into the issue and you have to like the economy in that they knock Mole Man's origin off in a page. The F4's origin is not the best in comics, but it is interesting that they are already kind of a team when the series starts.

Issue 2- Enter the Skrulls and who would go to be apart of so many Marvel stories. It is pretty much a typical kind of 50s - 60s version of an alien, but even in their second issue the F4 are already known by the general public enough that the Skrulls impersonating them is a kind of a big deal. As I said about issue 1, they are already a known entity but people cannot believe they are real. The Thing in all of these early issues is so much more angry and grotesque than lovable but depressive Ben Grimm of later years. I cannot help but notice that in his tranformation The Thing looks a bit like Kirby in one of the passing shots as he changes back and forth. I think the chapter headings are a pretty cool touch.

Issue 3- Fighting big monsters is the thing in these early F4 issues. I don't completely get how the Miracle Man is able to hypnotize everyone, but it is taken as a given. I'm sure that was played on a bit later in some other story. I have to think the kids reading this stuff in the 60s loved stuffr like the Fantasticar and the cool diagram of the F4's secret headquarters, which is not yet named. The Thing is pretty much a jerk in these early issues and kind of a bitty. The last panel of issue #3 is really important as shock it leads into next issue. I wonder how early you actually started to get continued stories from comic to comic, maybe it happened in the golden age more than I think, but there is already in #3 a continuity to next issue as Johnny takes off in the end.

Issue 4- Johnny is hiding out and the F4 are going to find him and The Thing is going to clobber him when he finds him. After destroying Johnny's and his friend's pad where they are working on hot rods, Johnny heads to the Bowery (of course later with Aunt Petunia and all) eventually finding Bill Everett's Sub-Mariner and helping to restore his memory by tossing him in the water. Were there people angry at the Sub-Mariner being a 'villain' when he was brought back? Namor kind of pops up in a couple of the big early Marvel tales as he leads to Cap coming back in Avengers 4. Anyway we get to see The Thing being heroic carrying the nuclear bomb into the middle of the huge sea monster that Namor unleashes on NY.

Some options and resources here: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4188277/Complete_Marvel_Fantastic_Four_Comics_DVD_part_1
http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Fantastic-Four-1/dp/0785106669
http://www.comics-db.com/Marvel_Comics/F/The_Fantastic_Four/Volume_1/index.html
http://www.amazon.com/Years-Fantastic-Four-Marvel-Comics/dp/0976888602

FF #1

I think I read once that Roz Kirby might have done some of the inking on FF#1, but that seems like a weird thing for all involved, considering that there was probably a lot riding on the launch of a new title*, especially one that broke the funnybook mold by having the heroes yell and fight with each other. Maybe she helped him out spotting blacks and ruling panel borders while he inked the important stuff.

Honestly, I think this issue is pretty bad when examined up close. What it has going for it is the huge revolution in characterization that early Marvel is known for -- heroes with neuroses and problems and disagreements. Aside from that, it's a Challengers of the Unknown retread, hedging its bets with the type of monsters that Kirby had been drawing for Marvel for two years, not fully committing to superheroics just yet. I have a major problem with the FF panicking the fuck out NYC Central City and destroying tens of millions of dollars worth of USAF hardware just because Reed sends up the "let's meet" signal.

I know it's picayune to bitch about little details, but on the other hand, NO IT'S NOT. Why does Johnny destroy a hot rod he's lovingly restored just to head to the meetup site? And if the door frame of the clothing store is too narrow for Ben to get out of, how the hell did he get in there in the first place?

On the upside, these are some of Kirby's best monsters, bar none, esp. the green one on the cover and the blue one with erector-set hands. And I kind of love how the Mole Man's origin and defeat are tossed off in four pages at the end. UNIMPORTANT. The important stuff is
"Now let's go find that skinny, loud-mouthed boyfriend of yours!"
"Oh, Ben -- if only you could stop hating Reed for what happened to you!"
Seriously, that's the rocket fuel that drove thousands of pages to come.

I was looking at FF Annual #1, which reprinted the FF Origin section from the debut, and noticed some stuff in side by side taste tests. In both of these comparisons, the left side is the FFAnnual#1 reprint and the right side is FF#1 itself.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF1comparison1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF1comparison2.jpg

Redrawing (in spots) and recoloring. Also, that spaceport guard looks an awful lot like he was drawn (or at least inked) by George Tuska...maybe Don Heck.

*Especially with DC's onerous deal as Marvel's newsstand distributor, which limited the number of titles Marvel could publish.

That's all I got for now.

Wait, I changed my mind. I just want to post this OMGWTFLOL panel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF1OMGWTFLOL.jpg

THIS is how you choose the crew for a space mission!

these days, mark evanier and others make a pretty persuasive case that george klein inked FF#1, knocking out previous candidates like chris rule, sol brodsky and (stan lee's bizarre suggestion) letterer artie simek. roz kirby apparently inked some of kirby's green arrow strips for DC, but she never worked for marvel. not long after inking issue 1 (and issue 2) of the FF, klein got the gig inking Curt Swan on Superman; then, shortly before his death in the late sixties, he returned to marvel when dc shafted a number of their long-term, older freelancers, and he did some absolutely gorgeous work on ppl like gene colan and john buscema. klein would've been a terrific inker on kirby's thor run - one of the great missed opportunities.

it's certainly true that many of the subsequent reprintings of FF#1 were re-inked and recoloured - again, according to evanier, bill everett may have re-inked at least one sixties reprinting. i'm pretty certain that george tuska had nothing to do w/ the above panels - it looks totally different to the work tuska did over kirby on some of the tales of suspense captain america stories. it looks much more like the work of syd shores to me - shores was working for marvel in the 60s, he inked (horribly!) lots of kirby's captain america comics, and his association with kirby dates back to the 1940s.

some time ago, stan lee found his synopsis for ff#1 - a find as convenient as joe simon's discovery of his original sketch for captain america's costume

nobody has been able to establish exactly when lee and kirby went from working full script to the 'marvel style' of having the artist flesh out an extremely basic lee plot (ie "in this issue the ff fight doctor doom - go for it jack") - but it's the safe to say that the better the FF got, the more kirby had to do with the plotting and character creation

WmC is right about the cursory nature of the Mole Man plot in FF 1. They don't even defeat him - they escape, the Torch seals the corridor behind them and for some unexplained reason Moley forgets his whole schtick is digging huge fucking holes from under the ground and stop his menacing ways.

Plenty to enjoy in this ish though - Moley's reveal and origin flashback are nicely sinister, and I like the stick fight between him and Reed. But then I always like to see pompous old Reed Richards get a beatdown.

Seeing as I was just inspired to reread FF1, I may as well join in with this. Think I'm in guys.

Are we reading at a certain pace? And can someone tell me the issue #'s we're reading?

No 2 achieves classic status for the batshit audaciousness of Reed's plan to avert the Skrull invasion.

Mordy, I like WmC's suggestion over on the other thread: "I imagine these threads sort of following the form of "In C" -- everybody has the same sheet music, but moves from fragment to fragment at their own pace."

Yes I will reread #1 v.v. soon.

Hey, I have the first three "Essentials" of this! As long as we don't talk about coloring, I can totes participate.

I love how in those first couple of issues Reed is Hugh Hefner, complete with pipe.
http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/images/column/62507/hefner.jpg

I'm not a big fan of these first issues; yes, the dynamic is established, the basic characters sketched out, but there isn't anything really special about them, at least from our current vantage point. They may have changed the landscape, but they aren't great reads.

Also love Johnny shaving the Sub-Mariner; it is a good thing it's Namor, because I think any regular Joe would have some serious burns after shaving with a blowtorch.

I love the way that, apparently, Kirby forgot to draw a fourth skull in the last pages of #2 and it's all explained with "He went on the ship with the others". What happens with your clever plan now, Richards!? Has that ever been explained?.

Let's see how far I can get!.

Hey guys this is my first Kirby and I'm hoping to read right along with you.

"No 2 achieves classic status for the batshit audaciousness of Reed's plan to avert the Skrull invasion."

I was actually going to add that point similar to that one and the funny thing is it kind of works how Bendis plays on how the Skrulls got PLAYED, especially when later on in Byrne's run Richards pretty much lets Galactus eat their planet. I got to say, I'd probably be a bit pissed too that they walked in and pulled a three card Monte trick on my people in #2 and then turned family into a Cow. It also feeds into the Kree/Skrull war, which was a cool Roy Thomas continuity play off of this issue.

I read #5 and #6 last night, which are the entrance of Dr. Doom and a return of the Submariner. That's how far I am now into the book.

I'll get my comments together for those two in a bit as we can discuss 2-5 a bit more, but I have to say issue #6 is the best of the bunch so far. There are some real classic moments in that one.

One other thing I have noticed is that Kirby is really great at drawing facial expressions in these books. There are quite a few panels where the expression is just spot on.

I've read the first 4 so far. The fourth is really interesting in terms of environmentalism. Namor doesn't want to destroy humanity until he realizes that they've destroyed his habitat with nuclear testing. Interestingly, Ben defeats Namor's creature with a nuclear weapon. So there's this weird tension between science/nuclear power (as symbolized by the heroes, fantasy four), and the oceans/environment. I imagine young readers are supposed to identify with the F4 as they fight Namor, but I couldn't help but sympathize with Namor.

I also like how Mole Man and Namor both have sympathetic origin stories/motives. By contrast with the Skrulls + Mystery Man who, at least in the first four issues, only seem to be generic evil guys. Also, Ben Grimm is, at times, an antagonist. So there's a lot of playing around with good/evil and who the sympathetic protagonists are.

Another thing I noticed is how much more narrative they told in a single issue than Marvel does now over 5-6 issue arcs. I assume that's being the panels are smaller and there aren't any double-page spreads. Those eat up page #'s pretty quickly.

being = because*

Also, general idea for ILC Reading. CBR published a voter-list of 100 best comic runs of all time. It might worth cribbing off that list for ideas of what to do next. For what it's worth, I think this FF line was #1 or 2.

I love this line from #6:

"While, back on earth, the hour is late... the dark streets deserted on skyscraper row... and the stray individuals who later witness the silent return of the Baxter Building from the skies, write it off as a bad dream... an hallucination resulting from the anxieties that plague our nuclear society."

^^^
Haha, classic Lee. I'm only surprised it doesn't end in an exclamation mark.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PM9SPI7FEq0/SWL477z9EuI/AAAAAAAAAIw/83dJoRqK0eo/s1600-h/Kirby-Alphabet.gif

Ward, that's a great image. (Roger Langridge = awesome.) (Speaking of which, I should plug the sketchbook pages I've been putting up at lacunae.com--I love the one Langridge did...)

Reread #1 last night, & was struck by how incredibly much is crammed into it. It's not just the size of the panels that Mordy points out--it's that Lee/Kirby leap to a new scene whenever they get the chance. It practically feels like a clip-reel at times. I mean, I'm sure contemporary decompressing practices would make the origin story 6 issues, the Mole Man thing another 6, and that's like 24 pages here!

Also interesting that Lee clearly started to get a handle on the Thing's voice over the course of dialoguing this issue (in, what, two days?). I think he says "Bah!" three times in his first two pages--he kind of has a monster-from-the-Eastern-Bloc vibe going on at first--and toward the end of the issue he starts to settle into the Yancey St. speech patterns that eventually became identified with him.

Yeah, he still has the "Bah!"s going on in each of the first few issues (I quit counting after #7), but his dialogue improves pretty quickly.

Through issue #1 at least it read naturally to me ("oh obv as he gets more accustomed to being The Thing his speech patterns change to reflect the way he has to deal with this weird shit") but when you look closer it doesn't make sense chronologically at all! V little time-lapse b/w Thing running out of the men's clothing store (lol @ "how did he get in there??") and the 4 being on the Island, there are just so many flashbacks stuffed between point A and point B that it seems natural that his speech would change over time.

Issue #8 with the Puppet Master is A++

I've now got the full run, so consider me a total participant.

Issue 5 - Well here you have the first appearance of Dr. Doom. His origin is well known and has been later expanded on but the original really knocks it out quick, basically that he was an evil genius and he got himself blown up and thought dead. Doom’s plan for the F4 is a bit wacky, but it seems like any of those big Marvel baddies that have control over time seem to use it in some odd ways (of course Kang eventually gets tied into this whole thing, but that is years down the line). The characterization of the Thing is definitely like the Ben Grimm everybody knows and loves, especially in the scene with Johnny and the Hulk comic book ‘verry funny’ and when Reed dresses him up like Blackbeard ‘say this looks pretty good’. The F4 again doesn’t capture their villain and are just kind of escaping in the end. I know I had read this one before somewhere as a kid, as I remember the whole thing with the Pirates. I thought it was a good issue. The scene with the comic is the second time Johnny brings in a Marvel comic, as he did the same with an old comic of Submariner beforehand. The panel with Johnny looking over the comic book at the Thing is really great. I also notice that The Thing is beginning to look less lumpy and more like the character’s classic look, including the rocky eyebrow beginning to be shown a bit more, especially on the cover for issue 7.

Issue 6 – Doom and the Submariner return in this one. I notice that when the Human Torch screams over the crowd, one guy references him as a ‘living legend’, maybe throwing out the connection to the Golden Age Torch. I think that is how I might be reading it, even though I don’t think the Golden Age Human Torch gets referenced for quite a few years until the Ultron/Vision storyline in the Avengers. Doom’s plan again is pretty zany, as the dude has this magnetic device that can lift a building and he needs the Submariner to get it done. Sue is definitely a bit sweet on old Namor, as he is just misunderstood. Again the F4 gets away with the Submariner the hero of the story and Doom pulls a Vader flying away in the end, presumably dead. The quote above is definitely cool and I had not caught how cool it was until seeing posted above. This was also a pretty cool issue.

Issue 7-- This is a pretty standard B movie alien plot from the 50s-60s. The alien world is going to get destroyed, even though they have all this tech, they need to get Mr. Fantastic to save them. It is the first time you see Reed jerry rigging up some gizmo on the fly to save the day and again he pulls a fast one on the aliens by using his shrinking gas and Kurrgo getting presumably killed as there is no enlarging gas.

I'm going to start reading issue 8. The Puppet Master is definitely a creepy looking villain, even today.

FF #2

I could gripe about little continuity goofs in this issue as I did with #1, but that gets tired pretty quickly. The two big OMGWTFLOLs are

1) handing the Skrull chief some panels clipped from Strange Tales and Journey Into Mystery, saying "ooooo, monsters! they're gonna getcha!" and watching the Skrulls run away. I guess the top Skrull didn't look on the other side of the strangely un-photographic images and see the ad for selling Grit in your spare time;

2) the missing fourth Skrull that Amadeo mentioned upthread: I love the way that, apparently, Kirby forgot to draw a fourth skull in the last pages of #2 and it's all explained with "He went on the ship with the others". What happens with your clever plan now, Richards!? Has that ever been explained?.

A couple of notes on techniques Kirby tended to favor. One was the cinematic shot with no camera movement covering a short period of time over multiple panels (sometimes two but usually three or more), like with the jewelry store manager being robbed by the fake Sue. I count eight instances of this technique in this issue, and five more in #1.

Here's another: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF02page10panel7.jpg
He relied on this one a lot. One soldier/cop pointing away from the camera, one shooting away from the camera, one facing us hollering for reinforcements.

Finally, the scene with the Thing running into the wall of his cell over and over (page 9): I wonder if Frank Miller had that in mind when he had Marv break out of Kevin's dungeon in the first Sin City story?

I think I might read to #20 tonight. I've been trying to pace myself (otherwise I'll be done in a week). Where are other people up to?

I've read and reread all over the run, but I'm going to shoot for posting on one issue a day, tops.

Read #1 and #2 - definitely striking how different the family dynamic is, how much contention there is between Ben and Reed over Sue (not that Ben had a chance with her at all) but it's so weird to see him far from the now-standard wacky-bro-duo with Johnny as the "kids" of the F4. Also his design is far more grotesque and unlikely, The Thing is utterly incapable of making distinct facial expressions - he's just an angry mug of mud.

Also agree how about how it feels like so much more story is packed in one issue, but that's true of pretty much all comics from this era.

Issue 8- The Puppet Master is really creepy looking. This was a good issue, but of course you know that while he seemingly fell to his death in the end, it will not be the last time he will be seen. Alicia Masters, the blind step-daughter of The Puppet Master makes her first appearance.

Issue 9 – This issue was total sweet silver age lunacy. The F4 end up broke as Reed has blown all of their dough in the stock market, so they have to sell off everything. The Thing gets mad and goes off to have tea with Alicia Masters who calls him her ‘white knight’, so shamed Ben goes back to the F4. Being broke, they get an offer to go to Hollywood and make a million bucks in the movies. After hitchhiking and going through a crazy page when they get to the Hollywood studio featuring Marshall Dillon and Miss Kitty from Gunsmoke, Alfred Hitchcock, Bing Crosby and Bob Hope they end up in the big producers office and who is the person behind the movie…none other than our old buddy Namor, the Sub-Mariner. Any way one by one Namor starts dropping Reed, Johnny and The Thing into situations where he can defeat them, to be able to get alone with Sue. Of course, in the end the other three show up and they talk it out and Namor says something like fine you’ll get your money, the movie will be completed and the issue ends with the Fantastic Four at the opening for the film. This issue was totally off the wall, by far the most ‘silver age’ of any issue so far, but I have to say I had a pretty big smile while reading. Oh yeah, the closing lines of the mag are probably the first time ‘the world’s greatest comic magazine’ is referenced.

FF#3

Minuses: Logic holes big enough to drive an atomic tank through, rushed and sloppy art, and a z-grade villain who never left a mark. Did the Miracle Man ever show up again? Whoever was inking Kirby on these early issues was right not to get a credit.

Pluses: The costumes are so great they haven't changed much in 50 years. Detachable Fantasticar.

Four and a half of those single-camera short-duration shots that I talked about upthread. Might as well call them SCSD shots if I'm going to keep count, unless somebody else knows the technical term for them.

Issue 10 – This is another odd ball issue. Dr. Doom returns showing up at the Marvel offices forcing Stan Lee and Jack Kirby to call Mr. Fantastic. Doom then uses some alien tech that he got from these goofball aliens that saved him off the rock at the end of his last appearance to switch places with Reed. It is safe to say that Dr. Doom is working some super genius territory in some of these early issues. The characterization of Doom is not yet defined at this point. It was pretty goofy, but I thought it was fun. Oh yeah there is a line towards the end that The Thing kind of signifies that Reed is the leader of the group.

Issue 11 – This one gets even more strange. The metafiction gets deeper as the front half is basically the FF answering user mail and recapping their origins a bit more. The Impossible Man is a weird villain, I remember him as a kid from being in the F4 cartoon. Reed again beats the alien by using a grifter like ploy. Mailman Willie Lumpkin makes his first appearance. I think this was probably weakest issue of the bunch so far really.

Just reread 10 today - Kirby obviously had great fun drawing evil Reed, there's a terrific panel of him doing an outrageously dastardly laugh on page 17. P14 with all the miniature zoo animals is also gold. This is the issue where things start to get properly trippy.

Addendum on #3: first lettercol appearance. Future-pro-spotting (maybe): Alan Weiss. Also a planted letter from "S. Brodsky, Brooklyn".

FF#4:

Bringing back Golden Age characters to populate the fledgling Marvel Universe was a sensible move -- Timely was packed with great characters, and the egotistical Sub-Mariner was one of the best. I don't have a quibble with giving Namor amnesia during the 50s, but I wonder if this particular Bowery bum ever looked down at his ankles and thought "...wings?"

His speedo is red in this issue, instead of the blue-black that it was during the Golden Age or the green that Marvel would settle on shortly.

The artwork is so much better this issue -- not just the cleaner inking, but better and more dynamic layouts by Kirby. There's a variety of camera angles that brings a lot of kinetic energy to the book. (Page 22, Panel 4 is especially tasty, a shot of Namor from below, very cleanly inked, as he hollers about how awesome he is. Lee's dialogue throughout is rather hysterical as usual, but in this issue and especially in this panel he really gets across the size of Namor's ego.

The cover and splash panels to open each chapter are especially good this issue and really point up how important clean inking was to Kirby's work.

SCSD shots: 8. (Three on page three alone!)
Ads for training in a new career: 4.
Ads for prank gum: 1.

WmC, I just wanted to say that I really like the way you discuss/analyse Kirby's art here...I hope to add to the discussion when I can get a moment or two to sit/think/read

I want to post something more substancial when I get the time, but I just wanted to say re: better layouts, etc, that I love the opening "splash pages" at the beginning of each chapter. They have so much detail (I especially love the one on chapter 3 or something of issue 7 when they are falling on anti-gravity, the poses of each character just defines them so perfectly)

xpost --
Thanks! That kind of close analysis of artwork doesn't come naturally to me (I usually race through a comic book way too quickly, reading for story first and thinking about the art secondarily if at all), but I'm trying to take a page from a friend of mine who has written zines for CAPA-Alpha for decades. He is the best comic art analyst I've ever read, and there have been some good ones in K-a. I'm looking at one of his zines from '07 right now, with page repros and analysis of war comics by Jacques Tardi and Neal Adams.

WmC is there any way you could point interested parties (meaning myself) towards some useful excerpts of yr friend's art analysis, perhaps? (youre doin a good job too but i've been taking a critical look at the layout of comic book pages myself, so I would like to check out even more writing along these same lines)

I can give you the address to join CAPA-Alpha, or if you find yourself in Lansing, I believe they still maintain a complete collection of the APA at Michigan State University's Comic Art Collection; one of the members sends his copy on to MSU when he's through with it every month. But the zines my friend (Chr1st0ph M3lch3rt) writes aren't distributed beyond K-a members and ex-members, as far as I know. (Once or twice there have been misgivings among K-a membership that a copy even goes to MSU.)

FF#09 - It's, as earlnash has said, pure silver age lunacy. Namor as Hollywood bigshot is good enough and the traps he sets up for the FF are wonderful (well, except for the fight with the Thing, perhaps).

FF#10 - This issue is the one I've liked the best so far (I liked #07 well enough, too, I love the O'Henry-poetic ending): Doom sounds more like Doom than ever, love the way Kirby draws Evil Reed Richards and the explanation for Doom's escape from espace is insane. Here's hoping Millar's next "Masters Of Doom" arc involves the return of the Ovoids! :)

My favourite panel of Doom's flashback in 10 is the one with a line of young Ovoid bodies waiting for mind transfer - they've all got little matinee idol mustaches!

Issue 12- The Hulk vs. The Thing (round 1) and all sorts of Silver age nuggets of fun in this one. The Thing leaving a Beethoven concert saying “I love low down New Orleans Jazz” then being mistaken for the Hulk. Thunderbolt Ross being amazed at Johnny’s hot-rodding of the Fantasticar to the design later used in the 70s F4 cartoon. Nice touch by having the time not being published, to keep the speed of the Fantasticar secret per Reed Richards. Ross also drops a pretty early 60s like about it is good to keep girls around to raise morale to the Invisible Girl. The Wrecker loses his wallet and has a card stating he is a commie Red. The Thing takes a joyride on a rocket sled. The battle between the Hulk and The Thing is pretty much a draw. It was an issue with a whole lot of story and I could definitely see why kids in the early 60s would dig the comic.

Villain/ Guest Star Recap for the first dozen issues of the Fantastic Four:

1- The Mole Man
2- Skrulls
3- The Miracle Man
4- The Sub-Mariner
5- Dr. Doom
6- Dr. Doom (2) & the Sub-Mariner (2)
7- Kurrgo, Master of Planet X
8- The Puppet Master
9- The Sub-Mariner (3)
10- Dr. Doom (3)
11- The Impossible Man
12- The Hulk & The Wrecker

xxxp...cool I live abt an hour south of Lansing...you say there's a copy of all the zines in the MSU library?

go ahead and contact me at bigstarz404ATyahooDOTcom to tell me more...

email sent

FF#5:

Looking over these early issues, one fun game is playing "Guess the Inker." This issue was much slicker than anything that had come before it, and the splash panel on page 6 really gives the game away:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF05pg6panel1.jpg

So I went to Joe Sinnott's Wikipedia page, which confirms that Sinnott did ink #5, a few years before he became the permanent inker on the book.

Is Dr. Doom Marvel's greatest villain? Yeah, I'd definitely rank him ahead of Magneto, Loki, the Green Goblin, Dormammu, Kang, all the other big ones. One thing that is sort of surprising is that from his earliest appearance, Doom's preoccupation with black magic is there, and so is the inclination to make that interest more of a character quirk than a source of his menace, "my mom's a witch" and dalliances with Morgan Le Fay notwithstanding. He's dangerous because of tech and weaponry, not spells and magic. (I know there are probably exceptions, but that's in general.)

One actual LOL for me this issue was in page 2, panel 5: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF05page2panel5.jpg -- monstrous Ben Grimm taking his morning coffee daintily with a cup and saucer. If I had to guess, I would credit that idea to Stan Lee rather than Kirby.

Kirby Foreshortening® had been around as long as Kirby had been around, but the artwork in the first three issues seems so muddled and rushed-looking that I didn't see a lot of it there. But I think that as he started to get a handle on these new characters, working with them regularly rather than creating a new Monster of the Month, he started thinking of visual ideas he could try out with them. Mr. Fantastic's stretching powers especially lend themselves to serious foreshortening, as these two panels show:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF05foreshorteningpanels.jpg
(left: pg 15 panel 4; right: pg 18 panel 4)

One thing I've been noticing in the early issues is the crude coloring, probably a function of short staffing and shorter deadlines. There are a lot of panels like this one (pg 5 panel 3) in the first few issues where solid fills replaced any attempt at representative coloring.

SCSD shots: six 3-panels, two 2-panels.

One last thing that occurred to me was -- How smart could Dr. Doom really be when all it takes to blow his shit up is to hit the "OFF" switch? Way to go Sue, you found his weakness!

Forgot that last bit of art:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF05coloring.jpg

PS, the ads back then were GREAT.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/straightline.jpg

Can't draw a straight line? It's okay, BOOBS AIN'T GOT STRAIGHT LINES.

#3 - The Thing is looking closer to what we know him as (distinct facial features) - still really angry, and he looks weird in pants. They even recap #1 for 2 pages or so. Costumes are also introduced. Notably Johnny's face is still kind of weird, but they establish that he's still a kid, and has a few celebrity hanger-on friends already. Is it just me, or does Ben's story really stand out foremost in these early issues - he becomes monster, is hopeless with unrequited love, and constantly upset and violent while everyone else has to hold him back?

#4 I agree with the earlier comments about how Namor is sort of a villain, but semi-justified by the nuclear testing that destroyed his kingdom... His revival must have been incredibly cool to readers back then.

Probably not gonna be able to catch up with you guys but it's fun to read this stuff.

FF#6

Having Dr. Doom search out and team up with the Sub-Mariner against the FF was a great idea, but maybe a little too soon for my taste, with three issues in a row featuring one or both of them as villains. Still, Lee did a good job with the developing characterizations -- Doom and Namor both arrogant, both prideful, but Doom a good bit smarter.

Kirby's visual imagination is really starting to run wild, more each issue. This splash panel from above the (not yet named) Baxter Building, which has been levitated out of the ground, is pretty amazing, with Manhattan far in the distance and fighter jets below the building.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF06page16panel1.jpg

He's also willing to take weird foreground/background chances, like page 4 panel 8: taken out of context, it looks like giant Ben is about to eat Johnny's head. (Note first series reference to the Yancy St. Gang.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/WilliamCrump63/FF06pg4panel8.jpg

SCSD shots: two 2-panel and four 3-panel, including great outer-space shots of Namor lunging toward the camera and Doom drifting away from the camera.

Cool things to keep in mind when these shipped which I looked up a couple of nights ago.

May 62 - FF # 4 - also shipped that month was Hulk #1.
Sep 62 - FF # 6 - FF was bi-monthly and in Aug 62, Amazing Fantasy #15 and Journey into Mystery #83 shipped with the first appearances of Spider-man and Thor.
Feb 63 - FF # 11 - also shipped was Amazing Spider-man #1 and Tales of Suspense #39 with the first appearance of Iron Man.
May 63 - FF # 14 - also shipped was Nick Fury #1.
Sep 63 - FF # 18 - also shipped was The Avengers #1 and The X-Men #1!!!
Mar 64 - FF # 24 - also shipped was Avengers #4 with the first Silver Age appearance of Captain America.
Apr 64 - FF # 25 - also shipped was Daredevil #1.

It is kind of wild how fast Marvel's superhero books caught on, within a couple of years you pretty much have the complete backbone of their line even today is established.

Issue 13 - Even though it is very much of its time, I really liked this one. It features Reed putting together a new rocket fuel to go to the moon. The same time the F4 are on the way to the moon there is a Commie bad guy named The Red Ghost who has his own rocket and crew of an ape, gorilla and orangutan going to the moon with no shielding, so they get even a more full dose of gamma radiation moving though space, of course getting similar powers (even in fact a bit stronger). When they get there there is an abandoned crazy city on the moon (later explained to be tied to the Inhumans maybe?) and they find The Watcher, who sets them up against each other. The F4 finally prevail and The Watcher says he has to book to some place a bit more distant to keep an eye on things.

Steve Ditko's inks on Kirby's pencils are quite a bit different. Some pages and panels look killer and kind of remind me a bit of Jaime Hernandez early artwork on Mechanics. The page where The Red Ghost's rocket is going through the gamma rays even reminds me a bit of Mignola with the use of blacks, especially in the last panel when they are getting powers. Later on the inks look a bit more sloppy, maybe because of deadlines, especially the page where The Thing first fights the super gorilla.

"While, back on earth, the hour is late... the dark streets deserted on skyscraper row... and the stray individuals who later witness the silent return of the Baxter Building from the skies, write it off as a bad dream... an hallucination resulting from the anxieties that plague our nuclear society."

― Mordy, Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:20 AM (1 week ago)

I could swear that's a Dylan song...

Excellent quote from Sue in 13 - "I would take my chances with THEM [the Super Apes] rather than the RED GHOST, for they are like the Communist masses, innocently enslaved by their evil leaders!" This issue is VERY noticeably inked by Ditko, I didn't even have to look at the credits. Not sure I like him inking Kirby, their styles fight for attention a bit.

Notable for being the first appearance of The Watcher, and of the Blue Area of the Moon.

stan lee loved the way ditko inked kirby, but ditko was too 'valuable' as an artist in his own right to use as an inker on a regular basis. i'm w/ stan - the combo is one of the great, rare treats of the silver age

I dunno, the combination doesn't really do it for me - Ditko's inks lessen the solidity and weight of Kirby's pencils somewhat.

Did Tom Palmer ever ink Jack Kirby? I wondered what Palmer's personal style, which comes out whoever he inked including most often John Buscema or Gene Colan would have looked like on Kirby's pencils. I think Palmer being the nearly regular inker of The Avengers for years kind of helped that title have a look, no matter who was doing the pencils.

palmer may have inked kirby on the odd 70s marvel cover, but o/wise no, which is a shame (especially if, like me, you pretty much consider palmer to be the greatest inker of all time.) while i agree that palmer's combination of superb brush technique and use of zipatone is pretty distinctive, i don't think he overwhelms a penciller in the same way that, say, wally wood does

Issue 14 - The Puppet Master returns and tries to use the Sub-Mariner to destroy the Fantastic Four. Sue Storm is mooning over Namor. Reed is longing for Sue. Ben is just The Thing. Namor under the Puppet Masters creepy spell kidnapps Sue and takes him back to his Ming the Merciless style pad in the ocean deep then the F4 go to follow. The scene when Ben goes to meet up with Alicia Masters with his section of the Fantisticar is pretty fun. Alicia seems to have some kind of empathy where she can tell Namor is under a spell. Eventually things fall apart for the Puppet Master and Namor wakes up and is like 'what are all you all doing in my house, but hey, Sue you can stay'. Not quite as good as some of the others, but not bad. The Puppet Master definitely is a creepy villain.

Issue 15 - The Mad Thinker is a super genius with a cool computer (got to love the buttons) and a plan. His plan had some logic and was pretty cool, he got Reed working with GE, Sue goes to Hollywood, Johnny joins the circus and Ben becomes a wrestler (which I thought was awesome) and he knew a meteor would hit NY. Once the meteor hits in the chaos, The Mad Thinker's plan gets a bit off the Maggia trail, as instead of just robbing the place blind, he takes over the Baxter building (second time the home office's are attacked). The Mad Thinker turns one of Reed's new life experiments into the Awesome Android which Stan announces is 'neither animal, mineral or vegetable...what is it?', which I thought was cool. Dick Ayers inks look much tighter on the past two issues than some of the earlier ones he did. I thought this was a pretty solid issue. I kind of remember the Awesome Android being in some of the old FF cartoons and kind of weirding me out when I was a kid, since it has no nose, eyes or ears. It is a strange looking creature. I won't spoil it, but Reed does pull another 3 card monte trick on a villain to win again. I kind of like the fact that The Mad Thinker was a mad scientist trying to work for the mob and if I used the character in a current story, I'd play that up.

Great scene of the Thing fighting a giant squid in 14 as I recall - and a great line from him about never knowing a female to be quiet for as long as Sue has been as he rescues her from said mollusc. Quality 60s sexism.

"Quality 60s sexism."

I caught that one too, there is about one every other issue or so. Outside the one with Thunderbolt Ross from the issue with the Hulk, there is the weird Stan Lee lecturing the audience scene about all of the fan letters about how they should leave Sue behind in I think #11. Things have changed.

John Byrne was one of the ones that really played out and expanded Sue's force shield powers, really making her one of the more powerful of the group, but I wonder how far along until she starts do something other than turn invisible.

Oddly enough Namor's powers are a bit different in these early issues than today. I don't think he had all of these mental powers and the electric shock thing he does in his first appearance.

I don't remember enough of Byrne's run regarding Sue's power, but some smart writer with a little grit and a pair of balls really needs to address the fact that she could slide a needle-sized force field into someone and expand it to the size of a car before they could blink. Grant Morrison got really close in FF 1234, but didn't carry on with the characters beyond that miniseries. I see Sue Richards as a Warpsmith who doesn't have to do ASL to blow shit up. Most frustrating character in the Marvel Universe.

Nice selection of Kirby's FF photomontages here:

http://bullyscomics.blogspot.com/2009/01/fantastic-photo-world-of-jack-kirby.html

Entering this stretch of issues, I'm having trouble thinking of anything to comment on. Several good villains are introduced, but there are a lot of repeats of Dr. Doom, Namor, Puppet Master, another Skrull, etc etc. The most interesting thing for me from 1962 to 1964 was the variations in inking over Kirby's pencils. Ayers gets an A-, with strong, confident lines; the Ditko issue was surprisingly unpleasant to me, neither fish nor flesh, lacking the strengths of both artists; the George Roussos (as "George Bell") issues are horrifyingly sloppy, but at least they pave the way from the lumpy Thing to the rocky Thing.

One other big development is the increase in Sue's powers (#22), adding force shields and the ability to make other things invisible, apparently after enough readers wrote in to tell Stan that Sue turning invisible was about as useful as Willy Lumpkin being able to make his ears wiggle real good.

One formatting note worth mentioning is that #13 was the last issue with the story broken up into four or more chapers with big splash panels at the beginning of each. #14 starts with PART 1, but there's no Part 2 in the issue, and no chapter breakdowns in any issue afterwards.