Taking Sides: Namor vs Aquaman

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Irritating stories vs boring stories.

Have either of their solo series ever been good? I suppose I'm fond of Aquaman in a "would never buy his comic" sort of way. (Does he still have a hook?) Namor on the other hand infuriates me - WHAT A TWAT, oh but his powerful sense of honour grrrrrr, "You dare lay hand upon a prince of the blood" etc etc. It was Stan who secretly fancied him, not Sue.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 20:48 (twenty years ago)

Though Attuma has a good helmet.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 20:51 (twenty years ago)

All they do is prove that superhero fans don't want to read stories that take place underwater on a regular basis. Swimming really well and being friends with seafood is not a common male power fantasy.

Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

Marvel and DC both shoot themselves in the foot with those characters - the concept is inherantly silly and ought to be played for camp, but writers/artists get saddled with the characters and feel that they've got to take the character VERY SERIOUSLY and totally overcompensate by making the characters humorless and dry.

Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 21:21 (twenty years ago)

Aquaman worked well in that Waid 'early JLA' series where his character was basically a long riff on 'fish out of water'. But there's only so much you can do with that and you can't do it well in a solo series (or perhaps you can, but nobody has).

The weird thing about Namor was that he really WAS a comics mainstay for ages in the Golden Age, when presumably 'male power fantasies' weren't that different. Though maybe he was less of a dick then.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 21:29 (twenty years ago)

The "Aquaman" archive edition has served me well - I love that panel where you see a young Aquaman in a tank with KILLER SHARKS and this griizled old sailor d00d who's apparently his father going like "c'mon son, you will NEVER become king of the seas if you don't get out of this one!" Hardcore.

Also, when some loser Aquaman vilain and some loser Green Arrow vilain decide to switch territories and instead of doing the LOGICAL thing and just fighting the other guy's nemensis Green Arrow gets a diving helmet and Aquaman walks the streets with a fucking FISHTANK behind him.

Also, the episode of "Super Friends" where Aquaman stops a fire with a giant wave, which then goes on to become a GIANT KILLER FLOOD THREATENING THE MAINLAND!

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)

I rememebr some good Namor stories, but c'mon - siler age Aquaman = the most enduring fanboy joke of all time.

The hooked guy? I dunno, I suppose he's allright, but as Matt pointed out, trying to make Aquaman a badass is a losing battle, there's just too much cultural baggage.

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

the other thing i liked about the wait 'early jla' series in regards to aquaman is it helped you understand why he's such an asshole

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:26 (twenty years ago)

Aquaman, cos Namor never said, "WAAAAASSSSSAAAAAAP"?

Leeeter van den Hoogenband (Leee), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 01:36 (twenty years ago)

Tom, from the few Golden Age stories I read, Namor was a BIGGER dick than he is now. Well, more annoying, at any rate - he whined a whole helluva lot (not very becoming for royalty!), & the rampant land-dweller hate was just out of control.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 03:52 (twenty years ago)

The current Aquaman series has really been quite good though - nautically themed villains excepted - with some excellent ideas in there.

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 07:32 (twenty years ago)

Namor = OK as a supporting character in various silver age comics (esp. an amazing early issue of Daredevil drawn by Wally Wood where Subby kicks the shit out of DD), dull as ditchwater in his own title

Aquaman = briefly interesting when written by Steve Skeates and drawn by Jim Aparo in the late 1960s, otherwise YAWN

Andrew ell, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 10:07 (twenty years ago)

There was a fantastic issue of What The #@&#! back in 1991 (where there any issues of What The @#$@! NOT in 1991?) where the Avengers and the JLA meet in a parody universe, and Namor and Arthur are sitting there having a coffee:
"So how's your wife?"
"Oh, you know, insane, dead, insane, dead again. And yours?"
"The same."

Huk-L, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 13:45 (twenty years ago)

The bends, it's a bitch.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)

There's a current Aquaman series?

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 13:49 (twenty years ago)

Set in Sub Diego.

Huk-L, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 13:52 (twenty years ago)

I hear that's nice in the summer.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 13:55 (twenty years ago)

I wonder how they feel about kids pissing in the ocean. I wonder if THEY piss in the ocean. I wonder if they have to piss. I wonder if they get back @ land-dwellers pissing in the ocean by going into people's pools & pissing (cf. John Cheever's "The Swimmer", but w/ a TWIST). I wonder about a lot of things.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 13:58 (twenty years ago)

I think they elimate waste in gas form, then it bubbles up to the surface and GLOBAL WARMS!

Huk-L, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

I just realized - Namor's costumes / looks have been much better than Aquaman's. Orange shirt w/ scales & green tights (or Grizzled Adams hair w/ no shirt) v. slicked back hair, green Speedo, & ANKLE WINGS (or black leather vest w/ armpit webbing). Also, Namor looks better in a suit.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

Why exactly has Namor got ankle wings? Is it so cormorants and albatrosses don't feel left out?

Mark C (Markco), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 14:32 (twenty years ago)

Can't Namor fly? You don't really expect an ocean man to fly without wings on his feet, do you?

Aquaman wins though because Namor was never parodied on Spongebob:
http://www.spongezone.net/mmbio.jpg

Huk-L, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 14:46 (twenty years ago)

Aquaman also gets a nod in Venture Brothers - one of the VBs (the one that doesn't look like Ditko's Peter Parker) wears an Aquamanny T (w/ the orange scales) to bed.

Still - "IMPERIOUS REX!" is one great catchphrase. What's Aquaman's catchphrase? "LET MY TUNA GO"? "SEMPER FISH"?

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 14:53 (twenty years ago)

Aquaman might be a weaker character overall (I say this having recently read Vol 1. of Essential Fantastic Four), but his design is perhaps one of the most distinct and memorable of all superheroes ever. Aside from the brief flirtation with blue and the expectedly shortlived 90s Allman Bros makeover, his costume's had less tweaks than Superman's even.

Huk-L, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

Oh lordy I forgot about the blue & teal wave design!

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

Aquaman's design might not have changed, but the types of stories they've attempted have gone all over the place, from 4-color spandexery concerning Black Manta & the Ocean Master to Atlantean mythmaking & backstorying (done, I believe, by Peter David), more so than any other keystone DC character (besides Flash) (&, in Flash's case, the changes in story style weren't as drastic, from what I could tell) (&, also, they essentially rebooted Flash when Barry Allen bit it in THE CRISIS, as Wally West was, for all intents & purpose, a tabula rasa). And they keep on switching stuff up, because nothing sticks / sells, or they don't allow anything to stick. I'd imagine some writer w/ a little imagination & a healthy disrespect for tradition (both Aqua's, and DC's) could give Aquaman a nice little Animal Man-esque tweak (though maybe Peter David's run, where Aqua got THE HOOK & THE DICKIE BETTS, was the 1 & only shot @ that sort of reimagineering).

This IS really true of any character that's survived for the past 40+ years, but w/ a guy whose profile & stature is always in flux (between leaving & joining the JLA, & his series getting canned every five years), these changes are woefully blatant. Instead of changes made for the sake of "keeping things fresh", changes are made to GET the character into a position where the need to "keep things fresh" becomes a problem.

Namor, on the other hand, has always, to my knowledge, been a brooding majestic prick flying around fighting things (his conscience, his lot in life, his brother-in-law, his horn for Ms. Richards), though he's also sported THE DICKIE BETTS (thanks to paradigm-shifter Kirby-nodder John Byrne, who made Namor into Lex Luthor for a couple of years, & then took it all away).

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:14 (twenty years ago)

Yes fucking ATLANTIS this is another reason why all undersea comics are rubbish.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:17 (twenty years ago)

That's what I said, David R. As a character, Aquaman's got nothing. As a visual icon to be placed on puffy stickers, commemorative glasses free with a tank of glass, t-shirts, whatev, he's awesome. He's like a brand that nobody knows or cares what the product is. He's the Von Dutch of comics.
(incidentally, isn't Von Dutch a reference to the old CAR-Toons mag?)

Huk-L, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:24 (twenty years ago)

Who the fudge is Von Dutch? & would he look good on a Burger King cup?

(ha! "commemorative glass free w/ a tank of glass" - "no thanks, keep the Aquaman cup; I've got plenty of glass right here!") (I do not mock the typos; I only treasure & luv them)

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:32 (twenty years ago)

Oh, yeah - I dunno if anyone answered Tom's "does he have a hook" question. I guess he had the hook replaced by a see-through hand made of MAGICAL STUFF. Might be Amazonian.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

whoops.

Von Dutch is that label that's on all the trucker hats (Par!s H!lt0n wears 'em all the time) and accessories of the shabby-chic set.
I just read Neil Hagerty (of Royal Trux and Howling Hex fame)'s book of short stories and essays, Public Works, and there's an essay (i believe reprinted from an issue of Comics Journal!) called "I remember CAR-Toons" (CAR-Toons was Cracked for the hot rod set) and he talks about how Von Dutch was a running gag in the mag, that he was this mystical zen mechanic which all the gearheads spoke of in alternating reverence and defiance.
I think he was even a real dude.

here's the article in it's original form (or thereabouts): "GO-GO-GO Von Dutch: The strange tale of the now gone, though not much lamented, CAR-toons Magazine" by Neil Hagerty

Huk-L, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:43 (twenty years ago)

Okay, I don't know how to make text links: http://www.rtxarchive.com/archive/writing/lowbrow1.html

Huk-L, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:44 (twenty years ago)

I hated Namor as a kid coz he was obviously such a prick. But now I really like that about him, it makes him a bit more interesting than your standard do-gooder or tortured hero. Hes an arrogant pompous wanker. But then again he is one of the most powerful characters in the MU, so why not?
And...I liked Byrnes's Namor series. Namor in the boardroom, sod-all boring Atlantean stuff.
Aquaman. Errr....Morrison handled him well in his JLA, where he was more Namor-ish, frankly, haughty and regal and arrogant. I liked the hints that he and Diana fancied each other because as royalty, nobody else was really good enough for either of them. Ha.
He has a cool costume, I agree. I always had a weird soft-spot for him. I have an old Justic League where he staggers out of the ocean and gets a cab(!) to teleport to the Watchtower and the cabby thinks "He looks like Steve McQueen." I never thought that he'd look like Steve McQueen...

David N (David N.), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 23:13 (twenty years ago)

Yes fucking ATLANTIS this is another reason why all undersea comics are rubbish.

Namor vs Aquaman vs Seaguy?

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Thursday, 7 April 2005 23:25 (twenty years ago)

The Atlantis in Seaguy is the only real one.

Tom (Groke), Friday, 8 April 2005 13:12 (twenty years ago)

In Phil Foglio's late 80s Plastic Man miniseries, Plas's powers were posited to have come from Atlantis, which was revealed to have not actually sunk, but actually continentally shifted over to the West Coast of the USA (though, um, wouldn't it be Pacifis, then?) and it's now known as California.

Huk-L, Monday, 11 April 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

two months pass...
http://img47.echo.cx/img47/6531/dcdictwith8wm.jpg

beat THAT, Namor!

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Sunday, 26 June 2005 23:33 (twenty years ago)

These days that would have been a six-issue epic.

"Fans have been asking for years - what does Aquaman point at helicopters with? Well you're about to find out! Nothing is ARM-LESS in the DCU next year as we sear into HELICOPTER CRISIS!! Aquaman will never be the same! And neither will Batman! And neither will their arms!"

Vic Fluro, Monday, 27 June 2005 11:01 (twenty years ago)

Hahaha!

Batman's pose in that picture begs a few questions, as well.

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 27 June 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

Aquaman's arm WAS never the same again!

kit brash (kit brash), Monday, 27 June 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

Batman's doing The Hustle!

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 27 June 2005 14:50 (twenty years ago)

Does Aquaman still have fins on his pants? Or are they actually part of his calves?
Also, does he have webbed toes?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 27 June 2005 15:00 (twenty years ago)

He doesn't still have fins, but does have webbed toes.

When one of your hands is made from healing water from the Secret Lake Of Avalon, given to you by The Lady Of The Lake and your name is Arthur (DO YOU SEE?) then those sort of details pale into insignificance.

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 07:24 (twenty years ago)

So what does the "Curry" signify? Or have they dropped that?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 13:33 (twenty years ago)

It passed.

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

(Boo to subtle potty humor.)

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

IMPERIOUS REX, BITCHEZ!!11!!!!11!

rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 29 June 2005 18:53 (twenty years ago)

I love those wacked out Sub-Mariner stories Bill Everett did during the Fifties superhero revival! Sub-Mariner fights the Creature from the Black Lagoon, fights aliens who suck all the water from the oceans off the Earth into space via a giant vortex to the moon, and etc. Great art, best characterization on the Sub-Mariner ever (he's just this ornery guy that weird stuff happens to that he has to put up with, not the imperial whatever-the-fuck he's become thanks to Stan Lee), and lots of great cheesy SF shit, all done very tongue-in-cheek by Everett. Plus, Aquaman's never ripped up cities and killed Nazis the way that the Sub-Mariner did in the Forties, nor used expressions like "Sufferin' Shad!" all the time either. Sub-Mariner as done by Everett kicks Aquaman's Johnny-come-lately retread ass for all eternity.

Chris F. (servoret), Thursday, 30 June 2005 04:42 (twenty years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/plechazunga/ilx/aquaman.jpg

Retread, hmmm?? (Leee), Thursday, 30 June 2005 04:54 (twenty years ago)

Namorita vs Aquagirl.

Pete (Pete), Thursday, 30 June 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)


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