Following "Classic Runs"

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Coming from the Animal Man thread, Chuck sez following Grant M on a title is a kiss of death, BUT isn't this true for all classic runs? How many examples are there of two really hot runs following on one anothers' heels? Or is it that competent stuff looks worse when it comes after greatness?

I am guessing this is only applicable to work-for-hire properties, sorry non-spandex fans.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 15 August 2005 15:49 (twenty years ago)

I know Veitch R's Swamp Thing has its fans: I thought it started tentative and didn't do much with its ideas and then suddenly picked up with the time-travel stuff, was getting pretty good before DC got cold feet.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 15 August 2005 15:53 (twenty years ago)

Dan Jurgens to thread!

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 15 August 2005 15:53 (twenty years ago)

Hellblazer, maybe? I just read some stuff from the O.G. Delano run that was pretty tight, and Garth Ennis came after that, right?

Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 15 August 2005 15:59 (twenty years ago)

Define "hot", Tom!

And are you talking about wholesale creative change, or just cog replacement (cf. Lee / Ditko becoming Lee / Romita on Spidey)?

Also, your assessment of Tom V's Swamp Thing is totally OTM.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 15 August 2005 16:12 (twenty years ago)

Whedon's X-Men run is pretty much following on from Morrison's - it's a different title, but it's the same cast, and dealing with the status quo from New X-Men, like the cliffhanger in the most recent issue.

The Yellow Kid, Monday, 15 August 2005 16:34 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, Joss Whedon dodges the Morrison curse, but just barely and mostly because of the technicality of it being a different series and the fact that he's a beloved fan favorite himself. Chuck Austen and Peter Milligan are the technical heirs to that title, and neither of them have done particularly well, though Milligan is picking up some steam.

Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 15 August 2005 17:17 (twenty years ago)

I am guessing this is only applicable to work-for-hire properties, sorry non-spandex fans.

It's true for non-spandex stuff too, though - post-Franquin Spirou and post-Goscinny Asterix are both very depressing.

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 15 August 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

It's true for non-spandex stuff too, though - post-Franquin Spirou and post-Goscinny Asterix are both very depressing.

Well, Fournier's stuff's not that bad. And do not forget that the Franquin run on Spirou is post-Jijé, which is also considered a classic. Though Franquin really upped the ante, yeah.

iodine (iodine), Monday, 15 August 2005 22:57 (twenty years ago)

It depends on your taste, of course, but I'd vote for Gaiman-after-Moore on Miracleman and Millar-after-Ellis on The Authority.

The first issue after Grant Morrison on JLA is actually really good! But then Mark Waid turns up.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 00:19 (twenty years ago)

I knew someone was going to mention Mark Millar on The Authority! I loathed his run as much as I loved the 12 issues by Ellis.

On the other hand, Gaiman in Miracleman is great, ranks easily among the best of his work.

Those JLA issues Mark Waid scripted are quite possibly the worst thing he ever did, along with the six or seven issues he did on Avengers and X-Men.

iodine (iodine), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 01:12 (twenty years ago)

I probably liked Millar's run better than Ellis's on The Authority, but then A)I don't care much for Ellis's writing or his enthusiasm for his pet characters/mouthpieces (e.g., Spider Jerusalem and Jenny Sparks) and B)I really like Frank Quitely's art.

I guess I agree with Chuck on Morrison's "kiss of death". Doom Patrol should have been retired with his last issue, Animal Man seems to have gone too "Vertigo" following his departure, JLA turned into an obnoxious franchise (I'm very sick of pretentious fans misusing the word "icon" to describe DC's superhero properties, as well as the vogue for referring to said superheroes by using their civilian names, as if they were real people with actual personalities-- all this seems to have been GM's fault), and Marvel's returning to spandex X-Men in the comics after he'd brought the characters back up to date was a total misstep and a waste of time. (Why did they bother? They wear black leather in the movies anyway!) I dunno, was Ann Nocenti's Kid Eternity series any good?

Chris F. (servoret), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 02:15 (twenty years ago)

Well, her Kid Eternity was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different from Grant's approach, so it's hard to make a comparison, but it was worthy, even if it got a bit preachy sometimes.

Even more, if somebody asks me about Grant's Kid Eternity, I would have to say that I liked it but I don't remember a thing about it other than it felt like a proto-Invisibles. On the other hand, if I got asked about Nocenti's run, I'd have to admit that to this day I haven't forgotten KE #6 "Eating Pop Porn", and I doubt I ever will.

iodine (iodine), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 04:26 (twenty years ago)

You don't know how relieved I am that someone else disliked (hated?) Millar's Authority. Then again, I'm not a fan of Millar's bad dialogue and reductive storytelling.

Leeeeeeee (Leee), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 05:30 (twenty years ago)

My feelings about Millar are very complex, I think every time I meet Vic Fluro we have "the Millar Argument" and I'm sure this weekend will be no different.

But I agree with Andrew about Ellis, at least about 90s Ellis.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 08:29 (twenty years ago)

Hellblazer had loads of fill-ins during the Delano run (including Grant Morrison w/ David Lloyd and Neil Gaiman w/ Dave McKean!) so precedent had been set for decent work (though actually the early Ennis was fucking terrible).

Rick Veitch, not Tom Veitch, on Swamp Thing was good all the time and did get better as he was going along.

Ann Nocenti's Kid Eternity was awful, but crucially, Grant's version wasn't any good either.

kit brash (kit brash), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 10:29 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, when I asked that question, I wasn't thinking of that Kid Eternity mini as classic by any means. I think the opinion that it suffers greatly from a determination to be a Dave-McKean-style art comic has been discussed here before.

Chris F. (servoret), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 10:47 (twenty years ago)

Actually the best issue of the Veitch Swamp Thing run was an earlier one, with the guy dying in an exploding car and becoming the jingle-singing "New" Swamp Thing, to be honest he should have stayed as the real Swamp Thing and we'd have been spared almost two-decades of HIPPIE SHITE.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 10:50 (twenty years ago)

I'm very fond of Nocenti's Kid Eternity, it was a very awkward gangly teenager of a comic.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 16 August 2005 11:11 (twenty years ago)

The early Ennis was great!. C'mon! He starts with "Dangerous Habits"!.
Anyway, the Delano issues aren't bad, except the awful "Fear Machine" with all those damned hippies.

I think a case of a great run being followed by another great run is the Levitz/Giffen LOSH and the "Five Year Gap" Legion, but I know that there is a lot of controversy and much arguing around the FYG. And you could make a case that it's not a complete change of creative teams.

Amadeo (Amadeo G.), Saturday, 20 August 2005 22:05 (twenty years ago)

Dangerous Habits was okay, but I got put right off during the "Royal Family are vampires living off the blood of the people DO YOU SEE??!?!??!?!" storyline and never made it into the long Dillon run...

Does anyone these days still believe that the 5YG Legion wouldn't have been fantastic if it had gotten more than three issues in before being crapcocked about by DC editorial fuckwittery?

kit brash (kit brash), Sunday, 21 August 2005 02:09 (twenty years ago)

Gah!
But the Mon-El destroys the Universe issue was sooooo awesome!

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 22 August 2005 14:52 (twenty years ago)


http://members.surfbest.net/argentium@surfbest.net/ttdestr.jpg

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 22 August 2005 14:55 (twenty years ago)

That looks awesome! What happened next?

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Monday, 22 August 2005 17:14 (twenty years ago)

I ate some nachos.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 22 August 2005 17:16 (twenty years ago)

Were they good?

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Monday, 22 August 2005 17:17 (twenty years ago)

Probably not, since I was 12, and didn't know how to make quacamole yet.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 22 August 2005 17:21 (twenty years ago)

Real Answer: Since Mon-El destroyed the Time Trapper and thus undid all of his machinations (he had created a pocket universe where Superboy and Mon-El came from Post-Crisis, so that Superboy could inspire the Legion of SH so that they could do battle with the evil wizard Mordru, so that EVENTUALLY, both Mordru and the Legion would be weakened enough that the Time Trapper could move on in and take over all creation), LSH #4 showed us a world where there had never been any opposition to Mordru.
Mordru ruled all with his magic helmet, and a small band of resistors (surprise, surprise, LSH doppelgangers) convinced/tricked??? one of Mordru's wives, Glorith to help them. So she did some majick spell and assumed the role the Time Trapper had played as Legion manipulator.
It was all very exciting at the time.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 22 August 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

oh yes I remember it well, the issue set in Mordru-world was creepy and awesome

Mark C (Markco), Monday, 22 August 2005 17:41 (twenty years ago)

Did we ever have an ILC's Best Storylines of All Time Poll that DaveR never bothered tabulating, or is that going to be the winter poll?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 22 August 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

THE 2004 POLL IS GETTING DONE THIS WEEK - MAYBE TONIGHT!

I am a sad panda.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 22 August 2005 19:15 (twenty years ago)

The Solar Council is very disappointed in you.

Pol Manning-L (Huk-L), Monday, 22 August 2005 19:17 (twenty years ago)

Suck it, poozer.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 22 August 2005 19:24 (twenty years ago)

Does anyone have a gmail or BT of the Levitz-Giffen post-crisis LOSH? Looks like a fun time-waster.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Monday, 22 August 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, the Mon-El Punches Out The Universe issue (#4) and the Mordru Rules The World issue (#5) were totally awesome, even more so for being forced diversions, but the main storyline never got fully back on the rails afterwards, as they had to keep taking every third issue out to explain THE NEW ORIGIN OF THE LEGION IN THIS NEW WORLD THAT MIKE CARLIN SAID WE HAD TO AMKE UP LAST WEEK and HERE IS OUR OBVIOUS SUPERGIRL STAND-IN, SHE HAS MON-EL'S REAL NAME BUT ON THE PLUS SIDE BRAINIAC FIVE CAN STILL BONE HER and so forth.

Most of the post-Crisis Levitz was still with Greg LaRocque as I recall, one of the longest-running, and also lamest, Legion artists evar. But it was great when Giffen came back and redesigned everyone's costumes straight away! And then Levtiz had them bitch about it in the dialogue. The final storyline was a bit anticlimactic, esp. because Giffen dropped back to layouts so he could get started on the 5YG series.

kit brash (kit brash), Monday, 22 August 2005 23:37 (twenty years ago)

If we're agreed that Moore's Swamp Thing run was classic (I think it was pretty good, at least, if not great), then I think Veitch is winning this thing hands down. His ST run is still one of my favorite comics runs ever.

And if Delano's Hellblazer run was uneven (although still pretty great at times), the Ennis run was even more so. I just re-read it and I'm not a fan. Although I honestly think that Jenkins might've been the only writer after Delano to really have a grasp on John Constantine's character. Which is not to say that the Jenkins run isn't wildly uneven, as well.

Deric W. Haircare (Deric W. Haircare), Tuesday, 23 August 2005 19:07 (twenty years ago)

Who wrote the one where he went to the laundromat? The cover (Sean Philips!) was ACE.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Tuesday, 23 August 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)

Wow, that was the second last issue I bought/read. It was written by a John Smith. I remembered it as earlier in the run, but I guess not. So that was the second last comic I bought in the 20th Century.
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/3599/200/3599_2_0051.jpg

Huk-L (Huk-L), Tuesday, 23 August 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

by THE John Smith.

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 24 August 2005 01:44 (twenty years ago)


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