Artist as Audience?

Matt;

In my own art I have discovered subconsciou thoughts about myself that are strangely compelling to only myself. I don't see this when I actually work on something. Only after I'm completely done with it, put it away for awhile and then view it impartially. It's not a fully conscious analytical process. I seem to always be under the delusion I'm painting beauty, (in my mind I try pursue the Greek view of art) only to discover later I've painted some obsession I had at some earlier point in my life.

Case in point, I recently did a painting of a house in England that was haunted by the ghost of a nun from the 1600's for the cover of a book. Looking at it later I realized it harked back to an earlier obsession I had with the Salem Witch Trials. I was fascinated with the clothing of the nun because she was the very image of the 1600's Puritan dress.

Then I realized that was connected to an ongoing analysis with the darker side of cultures and the reality/disreality belief in the devil and hell.

I've always found the concept of Hell to be completely and utterly fascinating, especially when it is embraced to the point that one can murder another based on this belief (religious justice, etc).

I myself do not believe in Hell. Yet I keep painting it into my work, forcing myself to reconsider the subject over and over again.

To me the artist is the actual audience. The people who happen to find ones work interesting fall into the category of 'others who have the same obsession.'

Hi. Realize I'm late in my response but I feel like I have something to contribute, even if it's just an attempt to make up for the severe lack of replies to such an interesting question.

I advise you not to worry about whether analysis is the job of the artist or audience and just create whatever you want, then come back to it in awhile, see if you're still into it, and correct any mistakes -- this works for me so it might work for you.

As for "going overboard", seems like most people who spend too much time analyzing others' work become pathetic snobs who think they're better than everyone else because they believe every tiny fucking detail has "deeper meaning", even continuity errors and typos. Not sure what effect overanalysis would have if it was your own work you were scrutinizing but I'd be careful if I were you. My advice is to focus on what you feel are the core features of the story, and let whatever subtext there is seep into the writing through your subconscious -- that way you're in less danger of making it too heavy-handed, or becoming self-absorbed.

On a slightly related note, I'm interested to know how you come up with ideas for stories, plots, characters, etc -- I don't usually get the opportunity to talk with other writers about technical stuff like that. I'd also like to read some of your stories, if possible, think you could link to them?

Thanks for your comments, I was just wrestling with my story when I came upon this. Me, I think I try way too hard to incorporate whatever I'm feeling at one point or another into the story, to the point that it might seem completely different one day than it does the next simply because I've found new aspects of my life to ponder on different days.

This is what frustrates me the most -- My never-ending project (10 years and going) is like a slippery fish in my hands. I can't seem to drop it, but I can't seem to catch it, either. I'm leaning heavily toward combining it with another of my interests, MUDs and virtual worlds, for this reason; as a collaborative medium, areas that frustrate me and remain blank could be filled in by those who have an interest, and where I seem utterly unable to decide on a final form or pin that damn fish down, the high-speed improvised acting/writing of live collaborative text might force me to do it on the spot and be done with it. God knows it needs to be done soon. But I'm digressing...

To sum it up, I suppose the problem is that I can't seem "just create whatever I want" because what I want changes so much. I could write a story a day, so to speak, to express whatever needs expressing at whatever time, but any new idea I've ever had, when it tries to strike out on its own, merges with the root story and only makes it more complex. I find I'm writing my memoirs in the form of a sci-fi fantasy diary.

I suppose my hope is that, after all this simmering, after shellacking it with layer upon flavor upon hue, it will have a deeper feeling or meaning than whatever few words or images make up the final product. Sometimes I feel like art is the process of killing a part of yourself and being done with it. But will it really be dead and gone then?

Let me know if any of this is making sense. I'm well caffeinated and probably incoherent.

Don't worry Matt, you are making sense, sort of. It's eerie, man -- you sound just like me. I mean, when you say what you want changes so much. I find it almost impossible to stick to one story idea long enough to finish it, in fact the last story I finished was "Elevators" and that was like 3 years ago. But I also find that I always eventually come back to my un-finished projects, to add a little more and edit what's already there, and that's a process I find really enjoyable. Nothing boosts my ego more than revisiting an old work and finding I still really like it, does it work the same for you?

Now, back to what you were saying . . . your use of the metaphor "My never-ending project is like a slippery fish, I can't seem to drop it, but I can't seem to catch it, either" makes me think you're talented enough so that your stories might well be worth the frustration they cause you. I'd still like to see/hear what you've got so far, and if your style is similar enough to mine I'd be happy to collaborate with you, since it seems like you need someone to bounce ideas off of and I need to get used to cooperating with others.

And what you said about art being the process of killing a part of yourself and being done with it . . . I don't feel that way at all, at least not now. I guess art is different things to different people, especially artists. The differences in perspective from one person to another might be so vast that I can't really give you any advice that would apply to your situation. And besides, this is the internet. How accurately can you possibly describe yourself and your predicament with just words? For that matter, how can I? It doesn't matter, I'm just pissing into the wind anyhow.

For what it's worth I hope things get better for you, and I really am interested in hearing about your project. Cheery-bye.

Thanks for the support, I appreciate it.

It's difficult to show you anything (besides the obvious reasons), because I don't really have any completed work, per se. Anything I've ever gotten close to completing has fallen by the wayside, only to be picked up again and incorportated into the uber-project that never ends, or never escapes outline form for that matter. It's rather like a journal full of little snippets of entries, describing an effect I'd like to achieve here, or providing just a little more insight into one of the characters there. All in all, it's a long, disorganized mess that probably only the author could decipher. Now and then I summarize the tidbits to make it easier to reflect upon, hopefully taking another step towards completion... then I drop the project for awhile, coming back to it when I feel my strings have been plucked by the world, only to find half the time that it's an artifact of an earlier era.

Lately I have been approaching another summary of my efforts, and once I get it, I'd be happy to share it with you (and maybe collaborate, too). But another of my problems is choosing a medium. I love to draw, find I like my own work half the time, but can't seem to sustain it long enough. And like I said, making it into a collaborative writing/acting/improv project on the net seems the most likely outcome. But in any case, I'll let you know.

I really enjoy all this open communication about personal creative processes, especially about this project 10 years and going! Thats really interesting... and affecting actually. So is this idea about using a MUD to get it finished.
Has that kind of thing been done before?

Matt, it sounds like a full sumarry'd be worth the wait, but honestly after all this prodding can't you just give me a half-assed description of what it's about? Something like, "A werewolf takes a job at a roadside Denny's to pay the rent, and everything is going fine until demons from Quadular Nebulous Clusterfuck II start pouring out of the Men's toilets" would be perfectly acceptable.

As for choosing a medium, an online novel/series of short stories with illustrations seems like it'd fit with your interests, of course I can't say whether that'd be the most fitting medium for the story.

You say you like to draw, huh? I've been considering doing a web comic, but can't draw for shit -- don't suppose you'd be interested, if I could get a story going . . . ? If it's too soon to spring this on you, keep in mind that this, too, can wait, seeing as I haven't even finished the first stages of development yet (which makes it sound like I'm building a giant robot, but I'm not). Also, I don't exactly have my heart set on it so don't feel bad about saying "no".

And Sam, I'm glad you enjoy eavesdropping on our long-winded chatter. What've you been up to lately?

Art and music mostly. Not much writing though. Just a little song writing now and then.

How about you?

Very little, Sam. Have come up with a new series concept and a computer game concept, both not so good but kind of interesting and blah blah blah. Am currently waiting for a game to load (it loaded before but not now, after refreshing at least 6 fucking times). Aside from that things are, as usual, boring.

Okay guys, I'm sorry it's taken me so long. Wrestling with my work makes writing even a brief synopsis seem like fighting a war. But I've just hammered out a pretty good summary of the setting that I'll share with you:

The setting is the world's only state, Iberica, a spartan military regime in which the only citizens are soldiers, members of the Coast Guard of Iberica (or CGI) who assist in its constant outward and upward expansion. The state is literally a single structure, a concrete monolith erected in a vast desert that appears to cover the earth. As it expands, it takes various geometric forms -- perhaps it started as a great sphere; more spheres were added, until they formed an even greater cube, whereupon spheres became unfashionable and cubes came to dominate, until they too became tiresome and began to coagulate into pyramids greater still, and on and on, ad infinitum. Iberica consists of the fashionable outermost forms. Like the thin living layer of a growing plant that leaves behind an ossified structure in its wake, it is a perpetual construction zone, but it is clean, clear, quiet and empty, strangely dead and devoid of people (for Iberica's citizens are actually quite few in number). It is the discarded inner spaces, ironically, that are more alive. Collectively known as Harbor, it is allocated to the amalgam of minority groups called by the insensitive catch-all Polyvaria. In fact, the Poly greatly outnumber the Ibericans.

However, this state of affairs is really only a sort of game. Polyvaria are regularly recruited into what is known as the "Polyce" force, groomed for eventual incorportation into the CGI and with it, Iberican citizenship. The (not-so-secret) secret is that the Ibericans are themselves Polyvaria; Iberica is just a concrete stage where the Poly play social, political and military games. Polyvarium recruits dispose of their biological bodies to don mechanical shells known as bails, vessels by which they can partake in this imaginary world. This funny state of affairs is known as "Polytics".

The bails populating Iberica swim in a sea of information known as the Ocean, a mental space superimposed upon (and mingling with) the physical environment, in which text, thought and image are indistinguishable (this concept is especially well-suited for the MUD medium, where all three seem to mingle). While a bail itself may have no hands, its occupant can manipulate Oceanic objects with imagined fingers. A purely physical being would not be able to navigate Iberica; one must exist on both levels to appreciate it. Here the Poly become Ocean currents, passing from one bail body to another. One bail might hold many currents, or a single current might divide itself between many bails -- identity becomes fluid.

I'm reaching the end of my caffeine high and have to stop there for now, but I'll write more later, including a synopsis of some of the stories and characters (which are hopefully much more interesting than the setting).

As far as the medium, I'm envisioning it not just as a MUD but as a collaborative fiction project whereby players (which I mean both in the sense of actors on a stage and possibly participants in a game) either submit new portions of a story over the web/email or pound them out live from within the MUD. This would have the advantage of not alienating those who are intimidated by the increasingly arcane technology of text games. In any case, the various threads would be organized and posted to the central website to form a (somewhat) seamless whole. Being fond of role-playing games and such, I'm toying with including a game aspect as well, but in a way unlike most virtual worlds or tabletop games -- maybe something more akin to trading card games. In addition, a second layer of the project would take the polished text produced and interpret it visually, taking the form of web comics or simply visual art of any kind. I have a strong syncretic urge and I get excited at the idea of many people writing in many styles and about many things, only to have them come together under a sort of common aesthetic as a single text, and then in turn be made visual by a number of different interpretations... etc., etc.

Because I'm designing this project/world as an artistic outlet for myself, I'm having a hard time reconciling it with my desire to provide it as an outlet for others as well. The setting and stories are very particular to me and my mind, and I wonder if others will be able to easily project their own characters and conflicts into my world.

Well, let me know what you think so far. I'm interested to see if people might actually think this is a workable idea.

Allright, here's what I think so far.

The Good:

Story sounds decent, with alot of potential for the political complexities making for good drama.

The Bad:

To be honest, I think alot of people are going to be put off by the fact that the story includes so many different mediums.

What little advice I can offer you is that this type of very complex sci-fi story has the potential to become really campy, heavy-handed or stuffy if you don't get it juuuuust right (I've seen it happen, it's not pretty. Ever read Lethe?). You might try taking breaks from the project and then coming back to keep a constantly fresh perspective.

As for it being a workable idea, hell yeah it is, if you can "keep a good grip on the fish" for long enough. My offer to collaborate with you and your project still stands, I am very interested in seeing how this plays out if you can get other people to help too.

I don't think the multiple media will hurt anything... people can enjoy what they want to enjoy. Everything will appear on the website in any case, in a standardized form, for people to enjoy. People who don't want the MUD aspect can pretend it doesn't exist, etc. In fact, though I like exploring the MUD aspect, I get more joy out of seeing the finished product and reading it as a narrative.

As far as taking breaks from the project, the whole reason I'm choosing the medium I am is, I think, because I can only handle working on expressing myself in such small chunks before I go crazy and need to put it down. This way, when I'm not producing something, other people will be. When I feel like sketching a character, I can, but it's not vital. If other people want to sketch my character, they can. That sort of thing.

Thanks for the offer to collaborate. I'll keep you posted on how this thing comes along. Just pray (as I am) that I can remain coherent long enough to get it started up.

Oh, and you mentioned first about the story... "the Good"... well, the setting in this case is really just a backdrop I've jumbled together from elements I've found philosophically interesting, and have little to do really with the stories I've been writing. The strange political situation is really just an excuse for me to set up a situation where the characters can play with identity issues, as you'll see later. My stories are actually very personal and emotional, and have next to nothing to do with politics. I'm really trying to emphasize the fact that the social and political setting is so artificial and empty as to be absurd, thus letting the characters and their own issues shine through. Hopefully, this will be a way to let each player explore his own issues through his characters.

(Or for that matter, not. Maybe some people just want to have some political intrigues and don't care about personal stories or individual expression? I'd like to allow for all types of players in this thing, as long as they're interested in contributing.)