Arguing about music is, by its very nature, rockist.

as n goes to infinity... what happens?

i'm not really sure... i'm still otming.

thrusting rockism into every conversation: just as silly.

carving out a seat in rock talk land only to find it not a very pleasant actually: uncool.

asking "what should i do with myself now?" until i'm dead: reality.
m.

that wasn't what i was saying, scott.

Yeah, Momus.

I don't know that I agree. Are you talking about Perpetua?

yea, i can see ilms popists ignoring that aspect, but i cant really see any popular music as swill, i dunno, industry/economics or no, the music of the charts of a place does tell a lot about a place i think.

ha, we've had this discussion before, haven't we?

So, Joel, how often do you think this occurs, really? Because if the people making, say, a Kelly Clarkson album all just happen to be into that kind of music, then I don't see why the political/economic issues you bring up SHOULD enter the debate.

I'm still not sure HOW it would, though.

"the whole classic/dud thing is soooo lame"

It's just a context for talking about whether you like something or not, really.

It's just a context for talking about whether you like something or not, really.

true but despite ANYTHING being brought up, i still think it's a kinda limited way to think about music. it's not a competition.

As far as the music itself is concerned, the only thing worthy of criticism from a political perspective is the situation where someone is not making music that they just happen to like, but deliberately trying to make something that will sell.

aesthetics, marketing, etc., etc. - these are all "political." even the musical is political.

If I talk about how much I like Kelly Clarkson, I don't think I need to examine the market forces that bring her to my attention while another would-be pop star gets left behind. I mean, I'm aware of those sorts of machinations, but they don't do anything to change my opinion that "Since U Been Gone" is a killer song.

and as jaync says, im not sure how this implicates popist viewpoints necessarily. i do think theres value in engaging with everything that becomes popular, because its obviously had succesful resonance, it becomes part of the cultural fabric at that given time, and hence is 'important' (not necessarily on an aesthetic level, but thats another kettle of fish now).

but i think popism isnt really about this anyway. i think popism is harder to define than rockism (and look at the trouble we've all had agreeing on what rockism actually is), partly because i dont think its possible to exist (yes i know i said i was one upthread ha). but i guess we could go for it being to do with the 'now' and unconcerned with history/context? it is what it is?

but this doesnt necessarily priviledge pop/chart above other music, just as rockism doesnt inherently priviledge rock/indie music above other music. which is why a lot of ilms 'popists', are just rockists about pop!

which is where, i guess, tangentially, we come back to ians point. does discussing music inherently lead you down a path away from this visceral, for the moment aesthetism?

i still dont think it does, but i can see the argument there, for sure

the industry/economics thing is interesting, because while on the surface it could be seen as quite rockist, or anti-popswill, its also the opposite. after all, it was the same industry that made the byrds sell x amount of records. is kelly popular because her music is good, or because the industry pushed it? are the byrds enduring because their music was good or because the industry pushed it, and continues to push it (obv in different and more subtle ways today, but its an ongoing self-perpetuating process)

"Rock & Roll Is Here To Pay" by Steve Chapple & Reebee Garofolo is an analysis of the music business through the mid 70s that addresses many of the issues you raised re: the effects of economics on music. It's an academic study and though lefty-oriented remarakably free of pomo jargon etc (written in the mid 70s). a modern-day version of this book is what you're pining for (me too).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0882293958/002-7213165-8971268?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

one of my professors!

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