should I learn to program

client-side javascript/dhtml could be an easy thing to pick up and learn. definitely useful for certain things and you don't have to become a total haxor to a lot of the basic sorts of things like pop up windows and validating forms and stuff.

php is on the easy end for server-side stuff. depending on where you work and what platforms are used, they may be inclined for you to know other stuff instead and many of those other options are much more involved. well, asp is a lot like php, but asp is getting old school. cold fusion is too niche. so are ruby and python, even tho they are both compelling and count for double cool nerd points even tho they aren't as hard. perl rules, but is more geeked out for certain tasks than it should be and can be limited commercially depending on your location and/or workplace. asp.net and java are both mature "best practices" technologies and so they pretty much represent the seriously in demand server-side stuff, but also require compiling and shit that is WAY geeky and tends to chase away people without a decent amount of patience for that sort of thing.

that said, i'd personally recommend javascript/dhtml and php...
m.

code hard. live fast.

i think msp is otm about perl. changes from job to job though. just depends what people need, and there's usually a choice of solutions.

i like programming. It pays a bunch and you can do your own thing. you tend to be autonomous, because non-technical people don't tend to fully understand the size of the tasks at hand, so you work at your own pace, surf the net a bit, and then they clap and drool when you give deliver what they want. plus, it's actually quite satisying when you pull off something fancy!

definitely agreed that solutions vary... i code anywhere from 3 to 4 different languages fairly regularly for different projects and clients.

even if you're going the project manager route and never touch code again, i think learning a little about programming and what kind of programming is needed for what kind of job is crucial.

m.

Yea, I've only been directly managed by a non-programmer once and it was the worst job ever.

That's the thing, I think it's v important to have more of a clue what goes on on the programming end. So maybe I will try that, but I think eventually I'd rather be in charge of stuff on a conceptual level than the one always getting orders "here, fix this, code this, put this up on the web, and by the way everyone else delayed their parts of the project so you can stay late can't you?" & then ordering up some take-out & mega doses of caffeine & bitching a lot but doing it anyway.

I don't know how any of the server-side stuff works and that bugs me b/c I can't even get a handle on the parameters of a project when there's a whole dimension of it that.. does not compute, you know?

If I start w/the javascript + php that'll give me a better idea of.. well, how a whole site fits together, yes? That's really what I'm after. Beyond that, if I want to learn something super geekish a la ruby, OK, that's another tool, maybe I don't need it, but where I'm at now I don't even know what kind of tool it is or what it's for.

learning php is gonna help you get a handle on the conversation that the browser and web server have. that's basically all that goes on. the browser sends a request to the webserver and the webserver responds with html or the raw bytes for an image or whatever the browser requested so the browser can show the next page, etc.

learning client-side javascript is going to give you tricks to help interact with the user without necessarily talking to the web server.

m.

don't learn it. programming is the most frustrating unsatisfying waste of time! read a book or learn to paint pictures.

says caitlin as she posts from a shell inside matlab.
m.

Yea, the tools math and non-engineering science (and even engineering sometimes) people use to program are brain dead.

I wish I was doing more of this kind of thing. My first job out of university was a mix of databases, web-based stuff and VBA for a really small company. I was responsible for everything! Anyway, FATE has pushed me into doing solely VBA now. Kind of a shame, as it's not the most interesting work, but when someone offers to double/triple your salary, it's kinda hard to say no. Means I can buy all the records I want, anyway.

Also, if you can find work where you're given the time to teach yourself the relevant languages to complete a spec, I think that's a pretty good position to be in. You'll certainly be pretty well set afterwards, job-wise. And while learning something new can be very frustrating, it gets easier as it goes along. There's typically a learning element to any decent sized programming task, anyway. It's pretty rare that you find yourself doing the same thing twice. I guess it depends if you like problem solving or not.

msp..... who are what or where do you work for? Or is your programming shtick a private thing?

i work for a small company. lot's of different stuff. web stuff. distributed apps. .net and java mostly. some legacy asp stuff. depends on the client. i work with big, big databases, but am more of a user than a db expert. we work in a team, so i tend to do interface stuff and visualization and leave the data to others if that's possible.

i've done a lot in perl and php on the side or in the past. i've tried my hardest to keep my fingers in a little bit of everything just so if the market shifts, i can keep my job.

it's a good job but i still really hate it on occasion. it's not exactly what i thought i'd be doing 10 years ago. it's bizarre to think i've been doing web stuff for 10 years.

m.

I guess I like problem solving. I do like to know how things work. My patience level is not always so high. For a long time I assumed I didn't have the brain for it, but that's kind of silly. anyway, let me look at my class guide and see what's available. hooray, geeking out.

you could totally learn how. if you've done a bunch of css and mark up, javascript and php stuff should be learnable. if you ever have troubles, just ask. (shitty teachers can sometimes suck.)

i think it's definitely possible to get in there and learn some stuff and do some stuff without the really nasty hairballs. that's the great thing about a PM sort of job. if something sucks, delegate!

m.

hmmm, I don't know if HTML success is that great an indicator of programming success.

depends on what you're going for i guess. there's brute force, get the job done coding and there's quality code. i'm assuming daria has no interest in becoming a truly great coder. (at this point. minds change.)

i would definitely agree that architecting a system is much more involved than being just a little acquainted with programming.

and thinking through the program flow is more complicated than mark up.

you're certainly right. i'm was just trying to be encouraging.
m.

Well, I do care about best practices and efficiency. wouldn't be my style to just put up a bunch of junk code to get things done any old way. that would bother me and I would have to figure out how to fix it.

let me rephrase....

ways to solve a problem:

A) the absolutely stupid junk way... about 20% of coders suck like this. your client might not know it yet, but life is gonna suck really soon.

B) the standard way... about 70% of coders do this. this is what i mean by brute force, get the job done. there's nothing particularly clever here, but you do your job. your client is happy.

C) the really clever way... about 9% of people are really thinking and coming up with something novel. your client is happy but doesn't know any better. your boss and peers may be impressed.

D) the absolutely brilliant way. 1% if that. sell your idea. go to the beach.

best practices and efficiency typically fall in B. most of the programmers i've known are B types with occasional C moments. i've also known several solid C programmers with many D moments... but those guys are more rare. i love working with those guys tho. they lift everybody around them.
m.

D programmers are the kind of people who setup projects so you can just drop a DLL into a "plugins" directory and "It Just Works(tm)" -- for example

who can pee the furthest in the most novel way?

it's not always such a competition. it's like any craft tho. those four ways i bullshitted could apply to making or doing anything. i'm just repeating what somebody else repeated to me.

teh nerds do seem to take pride in their brain skillz tho. unlike the carpenter dude, i've known more nerds who seem constantly interested in showing you how smart they are, etc. i guess it's not too different from ILM in parts.

m.

I think we're having a vocabulary issue here. But, there is no point in trying to convince you that I want to learn the best way to do things when I clearly don't know the proper words with which to say this.

I don't know what to say about brain skillz, I think raw intelligence is generally overrated but perhaps in this field there are exceptions (but perhaps not).. the folks who know they possess a certain above average degree of raw intelligence are often hindered by pride over this.

It is mostly the fact that programmers have been jacking off with their computers since they were like 8.

it's just like writing. some people magically or not so magically find wonderful ways to say something we're all thinking. it's a lens that amplifies the beauty of a thing.

but i think a lot of the arbitrary elements that could make a piece of writing good could also play a part in what makes a piece of code good. (or bad.)

m.

"I think we're having a vocabulary issue here. But, there is no point in trying to convince you that I want to learn the best way to do things when I clearly don't know the proper words with which to say this."

sorry to nerd ego lame. curse my metal body.
m.

EXILED IN GUYVILLE

curses!

My brother is a massive geek & whenever he's back in my home town he goes to this local discount store (it's kinda like the Job Lot) that always has a shit load of cheap programming guides. So I just bought a couple of books.. Java, C++, project management. We'll see. They do a lot w/asp and .net at my job but that's someone else's turf right now, and always plenty of markup, cleanup, and editing of awkward English for me to do.

MORE ADVICE NEEDED

Freelance rates: how much to charge per hr for CSS work, and/or for more basic adding data to CMS? I asked on an ILE thread but nobody is reading it this afternoon..

That isn't programming.

$20+/hr minimum 5 hours billed.

I didn't say it was! But I figured I'd use my own thread to call attention to myself once again..

thanks, sounds reasonable.