A thread in which we discuss Booker T

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Booker T Huffman. Armed robber, longtime tagteam specialist, and the only shining light in the final two years of WCW. I like Booker. I like Booker a lot. I like how he's gone through so much shit in his career (remember that his first gimmick was him and another black guy being carried to the ring in chains by their deep southern white manager), he carried his useless brother to a decent tag team, that best of seven series with Chris Benoit, calling Hulk Hogan "nigga", spinaroonie, five-time, etc etc etc.

Anyway, so he's now #1 contender on Smackdown. He's taking on JBL, in a feud that will inevitably feature even more racial overtones than it does at the moment. Do you think we could, should, be seeing "six-time, six-time" after the Survivor Series? I'll share more thoughts once someone else chimes in. Because I think that the Book may be my favourite wrestler currently under WWE contract.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Sunday, 31 October 2004 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Booker too - he's played a lot of absurd roles, but he carried them all off well, and he is very good in the ring - big and agile. The demolishing of JBL and co looked great, I thought, one of the most convincing cases of one guy taking out three I can recall. I doubt they'll have him champ, but they probably should. One problem: that finisher looks devastating enough, but it does require someone to stand in a position that no one stands in except when fighting Booker. Lots of people have moves like that, and they always irritate me (see also people only ending up half lying against the bottom turnbuckle when fighting Rikishi, etc.).

I'm trying to think of someone I like better. Kane maybe, though he's been very poor of late (should never have lost the mask!). Triple H I still love, though ditto - the bit where he needed two people's help to beat a man who could barely walk in the last PPV was particularly bad, and he desperately needs rebuilding right now. Benoit is always excellent. Eddie Guerrero has been wonderful since his push. Booker would be in my top five, I think.

Who was Booker's brother?

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 31 October 2004 22:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Stevie Ray

― Leeeter van den Hoogenband (Leee), Sunday, 31 October 2004 23:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Martin's getting at what I was thinking. I think as a fan you assign a certain respect to wrestlers that have put up with a lot before making it big. Look at Stone Cold's careers as a lower-card tag-team comedy act or The Ringmaster. Look at Mick Foley's bouncing up and down federations and cards doing whatever dumb gimmick was asked of him. Compare this to someone such as, say, Randy Orton, who there's always the feeling they haven't "payed their dues".

I would have assumed they'd have put the title on Booker T, but tehre's two problems:

1) He's got the better of JBL two cards running
2) If JBL loses the title, he loses all momentum

Thus, my guess is JBL retains on a screw job at the SS, and Booker becomes six-time, six-time, champ at the following PPV (it's not called Armageddon anymore, is it?) in some sort of gimmick match.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 1 November 2004 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

That sounds a very plausible prediction.

I'm not so sure that I have anything at all against someone who hasn't paid dues - a concept I've always disliked (rockism!) - but someone who has put up with annoying shit that focusses too much on their race (see also Eddie Guerrero) does get some sympathy points from me, and when they have played heel and face roles with some strength, they get lots of extra points for that.

I'm trying to think if the WWE/F has ever had a black champ. I can't think of anyone, but I'm no expert.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 1 November 2004 22:53 (twenty-one years ago)

The Rock is half-black, and Yokozuna was Samoan, but no fully black wrestlers have won the WWE/WWF title. Of course, because the WCW title is now part of the WWE title, you could argue that Booker T and Ron Simmons are all ex-champions. But that'd be stupid.

Anyone interested in race and wrestling should investigate the career of Bobo Brazil.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 1 November 2004 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

The man was effectively the Joe Louis of wrestling.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 1 November 2004 23:12 (twenty-one years ago)

You think they'll do the 'Bradshaw vs Challenger match 1 = screwjob Bradshaw vs Challenger Match 2 = gimmick' thing again? They've already done that with like, everybody whose challenged him so far (not that I'd put it past them).

I would like to see Booker get the belt though

― M1chael Ph1lip Ph1lip Ph1lip Ph1lip Ph1lip Ann0yman (Ferg), Tuesday, 2 November 2004 03:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I like a feud to go two PPV matches though. It seems to me Smackdown is being booked like a Deep South promotion from the 60s and 70s at the moment (lead heel dominant yet cowardly rich guy, faces all honest upright working men, hat destroying angles), so why not run the feuds as they were back in 68?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 2 November 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I havent been paying much attention to rasslin since summerslam but isnt booker's turn pretty much thrown together at the moment? I mean what happened to burying him after he jumped from raw to smackdown? I mean, he had a crappy feud with UT, jobbed, crappy feud with cena, jobbed. And now what? Crap feud with JBL, job?

― still bevens (bscrubbins), Thursday, 4 November 2004 00:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Welcome to WWE booking 2004, Bill. You would expect that if they wanted Booker to contend for the belt, then they wouldn't spend months burying him. But they book month-to-month (or even week-to-week, hence you've got guys slogging it out at the bottom of the card (and the fans get used to seeing them there), getting mega-pushes a few months later, and they wonder why nobody buys them in the main event.

See also : Maven jobbing on Heat one week and main eventing on RAW the next, as the WWE somehow expects us to buy him as an immediate threat to Evolution's dominance.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Friday, 5 November 2004 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh yeah, the question ... Booker is great, I LOVED the Booker/Goldust pairing (they were supposed to be getting buried but were so good together that WWE had little choice but to push them). They had them chase the titles, and win them (which was great) and then they had them lose almost immediately to Storm/Regal, who were not over IN THE LEAST no matter how much JR crowed about them. I really lost my enthusiasm for Booker after that.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Friday, 5 November 2004 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Maven is the most bizarre and mystifying push in ages. He's never looked at all impressive nor charismatic, so why he is suddenly a top ten star?

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 5 November 2004 19:18 (twenty-one years ago)

You could say that theyre trying to validate the concept of Tough Enough, but if that were the case then maybe they wouldnt have fired Nidia? I kinda liked her.

But w/r/t to Booker T.. Im just not feeling him anymore. I dont think he gives a shit in the ring anymore either. When you look back on his best of 7 matches with Benoit in WCW when he actually gave a shit vs. his best of 7 matches with Cena its fucking night and day. What happened to his missle dropkicks, multiple finishers and the like? Now its just spinaroonie, axe kick, bullshit.

― still bevens (bscrubbins), Friday, 5 November 2004 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I think there's bound to be a lot of differences between a best of seven series with Chris Benoit in 1997 and a best of seven series with John Cena.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 5 November 2004 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I think that's a very good point - the wrestling standards are bound to be different.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 5 November 2004 22:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Also: you can wrestle differently when you're in the middle of the card (as Booker was during his feud with Benoit) and when you're at the top end of the card (as he was against Cena). Compare Rey Rey's cruiserweight matches back in 96 to his matches against the NWO in 98.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 5 November 2004 22:25 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm glad the bookend is back.

― lukey (Lukey G), Sunday, 7 November 2004 11:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't get Smackdown, but towards the end of his RAW run, I find his matches to be utterly boring and uninspired, except in non-RVD tag matches. I know 90% of WWE superstars are formulaic in their match layouts, but I think RVD and him are the worst offenders.

Maybe 'cause he didn't show much fire, as it felt like he was holding back, especially for a relatively big guy.

― alex in montreal, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

watching RVD is extremely dull (he had like an impressive range of moves and all but they never change!!! "oh look someone grabbed his leg better do that jump over back kick again!!!")

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

there's not enough power slams either. in the old days people used to get slammed all the time. now it's always fucking triple german suplexes and that stupid "three amigos" crap.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Goldust is the last WWE wrestler to do a really good powerslam. Nice snap to it, instead of the usual glorified bodyslam we see too often.

― alex in montreal, Tuesday, 9 November 2004 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

My god that Three Amigos is fucking dreadful. Chris Benoit's German Suplexes were the worst moves in wrestling history though, because Benoit is a FUCKING MIDGET and thus the other guy had to actually stand up before he could continue the sequence.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I remember when they traded RVD and the Book from raw and I thought they screwed the pooch. Little did I know, that shortly after that raw got 500 times better. RVD is so fucking tired hes reaching Dudley levels of banality.

Some credit to the multiple germans: when austin and benoit would get into a suplex competition and try and suplex the other guy a dozen times. thinking back on it, that era of wwe was my favorite. 2 MAN POWER TRIP.

one more xpost: I feel like the 'wwe style' ie: spot wrestling over and over again is whats partially killing them. I think if they tried to get more innovative in the ring, people would be more inclined to watch. (thus my endless bitching about OVW)

― still bevens (bscrubbins), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't understand this term 'spot wrestling'. I get sick of seeing the same moves again and again, especially those that so unmistakeably rely on major cooperation - the flier over the top rope to land on one or more opponents who are careful to catch you, but are knocked cold, is one that really annoys me. RVD is repeating the same moves every match, and surely has the agility and speed to come up with some new variations. Perhaps he is comfy being a high-mid-card regular, and can't be bothered.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Martin- what do (did) you think of Bret Hart as a worker, out of interest?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Well I wasn't watching during his greatest years - he was still a tag team wrestler only when I stopped many years ago, and he'd retired when I started again. I really liked him then - he gave every impression of being genuinely very skilled. That 'excellence of execution' tag seemed apt. How good he was as a main eventer I don't know. The only one I ever saw was the Wrestlemania where he lost to Yokozuna in the big title match, then Hulk Hogan beat Y. immediately. I don't think that's enough for any kind of judgement.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 11 November 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I was asking because Bret Hart is usually seen as the pinnacle of the "routine" style of wrestling, the so-called "Five Moves of Doom". Ric Flair is also a big proponent of this. I think Hart is reponsible for the confusion of "good worker" and "technician".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 11 November 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Michaels and Benoit both pretty much wrestle the same match every time recently as well. I guess that's the ol' Main Event Style again. I assume Michaels is credited as a proponent of this, whereas Benoit you kind of long for the days of dragon suplexes, top rope tombstones and crazy-ass powerbombs.

When Benoit german suplexed Austin 10 times in a row on Smackdown that was fucking brutal and entirely awesome.

― M1chael Ph1lip Ph1lip Ph1lip Ph1lip Ph1lip Ann0yman (Ferg), Thursday, 11 November 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll tell you what I liked: Super Crazy's 3-time Moonsault. That was awesome, and also extremely tortured in its execution, as it'd never lead to a pinfall.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 11 November 2004 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

The difference is that Bret Hart's signature moves were basic moves that make sense in the context of the match (Side Russian Legsweep, Side backbreaker, vertical suplex, second rope elbow, Sharpshooter); he's a technician and he'll break you down using these very technical moves.

RVD's spots (Rolling Thunder, step-over spin kick) are non-believable because you have to pretend that every single one of his opponents will hold his leg or lie down for a long long time while he runs the ropes and do fancy flips. And don't get me started with the Van Daminator. Bret Hart's moves are done *to* his opponent.

Benoit is different 'cause he's so fuckin' intense. Did you see him headbutting Edge like crazy before superplexing him?

― alex in montreal, Thursday, 11 November 2004 18:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I was asking because Bret Hart is usually seen as the pinnacle of the "routine" style of wrestling, the so-called "Five Moves of Doom".

I agree -- the FMoD was Bret being uncreative and uninspired. That's why all of his comebacks were identical during that time period. With his truly great feuds (e.g. Austin vs Harts) those matches were anything but formulaic.

Benoit is a technician, but is also a great worker -- he never relies on formulaic comebacks, and his style can change drastically depending on the opponent.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:39 (twenty-one years ago)

And a few months ago I heard that the WWE was pushing to have their guys abandon these "telegraphed" moves, or at the very least make their application more realistic. Examples were Matt Hardy's Twist of Fate (he always yells before applying it), and Rey Rey's 619 (opponent conveniently resting against the ropes, plus he always yells "619").

Nothing ever came of this, or at least nothing I could see. In the meantime, Shawn Michaels has been "tuning up the band" for ten fucking years.

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 11 November 2004 23:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I have a hard time believing that just because of the "WWE style". Telegraphing finishers gets the crowd into it and that's what the style is all about. There's a reason why RVD does the same moves over and over (he's capable of more if you look at his 30 min+ matches in ECW), it's because WWE wants recognizable patterns and moves so that the fans react. I agree it's a flawed reasoning, but not entirely unsuccessful. When RVD first came into WWE, he was arguably the biggest star of the Invasion such that even though he was in the heel faction, he was getting the biggest pops. They even had to (prematurely) propel him into a main event PPV (in a Triple Threat match vs. Austin and Angle). The reason is that he was fresh, not fitting into the WWE style and thus seen as different. Years of nonexistent upward mobility and the watering down of his style have caused him to become stagnant and unmotivated, not unlike Chris Jericho if you remember how the main eventers were complaining about his style and how it injured people when he first made his debut.

As for Bret, his FMoD comeback sequence was not identical as he mixed up the order of his FMoD. I still maintain that it makes sense in the context of his matches and him being a technician; whether it makes his matches boring and formulaic is arguable, I suppose.

― alex in montreal, Friday, 12 November 2004 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

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