wwe Draft Lottery

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John Cena as the 1st pick on Raw was a surprise. Anyone want to speculate draft predictions?

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)

Smackdown is gonna have to get somebody big if the E is serious about keeping it as a show. Although, after last night, the draft just seems to reaffirm that two weekly programs is one too many. It's like Vince and co. have been trying to keep up the vain illusion that the product demand is still as a high as it was during the height of the po-mo attitude era catch phrase renassaince.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

Todd Martin's recap for the Wrestling Observer was pretty good:

http://www.liveaudiowrestling.com/wo/news/features/default.asp?aID=13408

I have to agree with him about Cena getting traded back somehow, just like with HHH last year. Watching Cena on the show last night, I kept thinking to myself "what's the catch?". The only way for this to work is to send Batista to Smackdown, particularly because most people seem convinced that Angle is also jumping to RAW.

Supposedly, the audiences for RAW and Smackdown are only about half-overlapped, which would mean about half of Smackdown viewers watch RAW. Cena's the kind of guy who can get over instantly with a new audience, but Batista is someone that you need to watch for a while to realize that he's cool and is not just another bodybuilding lunkhead. Batista jumping to SD could be disastrous. Besides, who would he feud with over there, particularly if Angle comes to RAW? JBL? A feud with Eddy would be good, but Eddy is always good and it's not like the world is clamouring for Batista vs Eddy right now.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 21:30 (twenty years ago)

No matte which show Cena ends up on, it looks like the "payoff" for the Cena-Christian feud is going to end up with Cena squashing him on RAW, followed by a Kane run-in or something similarly shitty.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 7 June 2005 21:35 (twenty years ago)

Wow, Benoit is going to SD after being on RAW for all of 16 months. Although, if Batista jumps to SD, loses the belt to Angle, followed by a Benoit-Angle title feud stretching over the next 15 PPV's, then we could have something here. Move Michaels to SD and we'll *really* have something.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 05:02 (twenty years ago)

Even though I'm kinda upset over the pick (I don't get Smackdown and I rarely watch PPVs anymore, so I won't get to see Benoit wrestle for a long time), they were obviously out of good ideas for him. They were obviously try to protect his character still, but it was gonna be difficult on RAW. Now he has new life and they can keep him strong.

alex in montreal (alex in montreal), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

Yeah he was kinda used up after his title run. I just hope they have something more long term planned for him rather than use him as fodder for the ecw hype machine.

I havent watched much smackdown in the last couple of months either, but the draft seems to be making things seem more interesting. Im also looking forward to the move to Fridays so I can tivo the show with no conflicts.

Actor Sizemore fails drug test with fake penis (jingleberries), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 16:40 (twenty years ago)

I really hate the Bichoff versus Heyman storyline in the One Night Stand build-up. Its sort of bringing all existing feuds to a screeching halt. And who believes in or cares about this federation versus federation stuff anymore anyway? Then again, I never marked out for any of the supposedly good moments of the Invasion angle.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)

At the very worst, it's forcing us to put up with Bischoff as a sort of major character. I can tolerate GM Eric as the stressed out weasle backstage trying to put on a good show to keep his job, but his partisian slimey heel act only seems to produce the wrong kind of annoying X-Pac kind of heat when its in the foreground.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

Wrong thread perhaps.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Wednesday, 8 June 2005 20:15 (twenty years ago)

What a strange night. Yes, why DOES HHH have to concern himself with who is being drafted to RAW? Also, how many times did HHH go out of his way to bury Smackdown as a second-rate show? The #1 guy on Smackdown (Cena) comes in and immediately feuds with Xtian and Jericho, who are Raw midcarders. He never even got a sniff of the "real" main eventers, i.e. those who turned up for the 20 minute main event yapfest (which was very entertaining, though). But jeez, way to make Cena and his title look second-rate.

The PPV is shaping up to be awesome, though. I presume they're squeaking all these matches onto the Raw PPV before Batista, Shawn, or both get shipped off to Smackdown.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 03:47 (twenty years ago)

I don't like having Jericho in the mix, because for weeks leading up to this, his character didn't care so much about wrestling, content in knowing that he was the first Undisputed Champion and having Fozzy. Mind you, that's after he was eliminated from the Gold Rush tournament and losing the IC match to Shelton.

Now, Cena comes in and this makes it seems as though Jericho sees him as easy pickings, at least compare to the IC and the World Heavyweight titles (especially since Christian, the supposed #1 contender, got his ass jobbed out clean to both Batista and Benjamin not that long ago). Why so suddenly motivated?

alex in montreal (alex in montreal), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

Raw began with a long Hassan segment that we all knew would conclude with a Stunner. Then that was followed by Sergeant Slaughter's return to face Masters. A very 80s throwback first half hour.

The show felt off track as a whole. It's a shame since the last few weeks followed a continuity, which they broke away from a bit last night. Too bad as I was really digging Jericho's Mr. Hollywood apathy.
As much as I really like Angle, the climactic confrontation between the five guys in suits didn't make much sense.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)

But the best part of the show was definitely Angle's comments about Stephanie ... storyline continuity over five years? In the WWE???

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 21:14 (twenty years ago)

The HHH-Steph-Angle storyline was one of my favourites ever, before Stephanie booked a love triangle into every feud for the next three years. They did everything right up until it was time to actually have a match ... I've bitched about this elsewhere on this board ... soooo disappointing.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 14 June 2005 21:16 (twenty years ago)

Kurt Angle's reference to HHH's wife on RAW brought about a second of life into the show but everything became deflated IMO as soon as HHH delivered his dissapointing come back. Why keep up the kayfabe of having "divorced" Steph when the majority of people in the attendance and those bothering to still watch the show know they're still married? The sooner they acknowledge the real reason we see HHH so much on the show, the sooner maybe that somehow changes. That's just my (perhaps) unrealistic hope.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Wednesday, 15 June 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

I disagree with that ... the majority of the WWE's audience are not internet smarts, and never have been. Sometimes they'll drop a bone for the IWC, but only jerkoffs like Vince Russo ever tried booking angles specifically for the IWC (to be more precise -- booking angles to swerve the IWC), and we know how those sorts of things turned out.

Having said that, the fact that HHH and Steph are married IRL is hardly a secret. They've been out in public many times together, even though the marriage hasn't been acknowledged on WWE programming.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 15 June 2005 21:32 (twenty years ago)

HHH should've just sold that diss. If the roles were reversed, you know Angle would have, instead of being like "so what, what's your point?". It's little things like this that makes HHH hard to stomach sometimes.

alex in montreal (alex in montreal), Thursday, 16 June 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

I know the majority WWE audience are not part of the IWC but the HHH-Stephanie union seemed to obviously transcend the smart fan-mark barrier. When HHH was doing promotion for Blade 3, he was asked about it during his Conan O'Brian appearance.

I feel like I'm annoying and redundant dissing HHH, but my tolerance for him is pretty much non-existent at this point. The show as a whole can only hold the possibility for improvement if he allows himself to be in a non-main event feud. Performers have to be able move up and down the ranks of title contention for the fictional competitive world to have any semblence of dramatic plausibility.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Thursday, 16 June 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)

I see what you mean, but still, there's a huge difference between transcending the smart/mark barrier IRL and doing it on WWE TV. Once you've gone on RAW and said "this wrestler is married to the boss' daughter", then where do you go from there? What's the point of anything once you've had a guy go on TV and basically say "hi, I book these shows, now please continue to suspend your disbelief"? To me, that seems like a kayfabe barrier that shouldn't be crossed.

Alex OTM ... if you've gone through the trouble to reference a storyline from five years ago, then sell the fucking diss.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Thursday, 16 June 2005 18:16 (twenty years ago)

But by the same measure, shouldn't Vince McMahon have never started appearing in storylines?

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 17 June 2005 08:59 (twenty years ago)

Vince's character was/is the owner of the WWE. HHH's character is supposed to be a wrestler. On screen, it doesn't make any sense for him to be the owner/booker as well as one of the top wrestlers (unless that was his character, which it isn't).

Also, there's no going back once you're been acknowledged as the owner* ... WWE can whitewash four years of storylines and pretend that Edge and Christian were never brothers, but they can't pretend that Vince doesn't own the WWE.

*assuming that this is the truth -- i.e. they can now pretend that Flair never owned 1/2 of the WWE, because that was a story. But they can't pretend that HHH-Steph aren't married once it's acknowledged in storylines, because they really are married. I might be talking in circles here. Hopefully not.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Friday, 17 June 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

I agree that by making themselves unable to not acknowledge the HHH-Steph merger, they would paint themselves into a creative corner so to speak, as you've described.

The reason I brought up a wish for its acknowledgement in programming up thread, which is just a way of saying that I too feel that HHH should have sold Kurt Angle's diss, is because HHH's dominance of the show itself is apparently garnering heat from the crowd. Also, he appears to be obliquely referencing the shoot criticisms the IWC makes about him in promos as of late, like his words prior to "leaving RAW" a few weeks back.

It's really only a matter of time before his backstage influence is brought into the show's foreground of content. if his presence in every consecutive main event feud is to persist than it will need some kind of storyline motivation.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Friday, 17 June 2005 23:31 (twenty years ago)

if his presence in every consecutive main event feud is to persist than it will need some kind of storyline motivation.

I really wonder what the casual, non-internet fan thinks about him these days. In 2000, I honestly thought that HHH might be a new Flair -- great matches with a variety of opponents, terrific storylines, amazing heat. There hadn't ever been a long-term heel champ in the WWE so this was fresh and interesting. In that vein, maybe some fans accept that HHH is the new Flair (complete with Flair as his sidekick!) and will therefore always be on top. Sooner or later, you'd expect him to start drawing more of the "get off our screen" heel heat instead of the "boo, we hate you and will pay to see you get beat up" heel heat. For a variety of reasons, that hasn't happened and might never happen: HHH programs himself at the top of the card against the most over opponents, having Flair by his side increases his profile, can use every booking trick at the WWE's disposal to garner the heat he needs, etc.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Saturday, 18 June 2005 14:35 (twenty years ago)

Good points. I can't say I know what the average fan's take is on HHH these days is either.
It's worth noting the differences between Flair's performance in the same role that HHH could be said to now occupy. Flair's arrogant ladies' man playboy had a more "love to hate em'" vibe than HHH could ever achieve, compare Flair's ability to switch from heel to face and HHH's failed run as top face following the Steph divorce angle.

I'm a pretty big mark for Flair and the Horsemen gimmick, so I was pretty excited at the introduction of the Evolution stable as a potential 21st century Horsemen. I'd still be all for an Evolution stable to surround HHH. I wonder why they never really ran with possibilities of recreating the Horsemen?

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Saturday, 18 June 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

I think maybe all seventeen Horsemen reunions in WCW's latter years have possibly soured WWE on the concept.

http://www.accelerator3359.com/Wrestling/pictures/McMichael.jpg

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Sunday, 19 June 2005 13:29 (twenty years ago)

Mongo was great on the stick, man.

"Look at this venue! This place is APROPOS! And that dudn't mean yer diggin' round in the dirt with farm implements, baby"

M Annoyman (Ferg), Sunday, 19 June 2005 15:01 (twenty years ago)

I was wondering the other day why all the internet smarks dont try to start massive 'boring' chants or something similarly insulting every time HHH is on screen. If it catches on, HHH is in trouble. However, I think most non-internet fans are into him and he's genuinely over, mostly due to shenanigans already mentioned in this thread.

Actor Sizemore fails drug test with fake penis (jingleberries), Sunday, 19 June 2005 18:25 (twenty years ago)

Carlito is a great pick. I'm excited about this. Beating Benjamin in his first match was predictable, but I've got no complaints about it. JR was giving the hard sell to Benjamin's wipeout and with good reason -- it was fucking nasty. I wonder how much of that sell job was real.

Major props to Edge for bringing the briefcase to his wedding. I have no idea why they teased Matt's return, my guess is that Vince wanted to hear the pop and decide whether it was worth bringing him back. I can't remember the last time that the WWE booked for the internet like this, but then again, the Matt-Lita thing has blown up far beyond the internet at this point, in part thanks to Matt's endless series of interviews on the subject. Still, I'm surprised that it's blown up as big as it has.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 01:19 (twenty years ago)

I can't believe they spent six months trying to build up Hassan only to have Cena squash him in three minutes. I guess he'll be teaming with Simon Dean and Maven next week, saying that fat people are hypocrites for being prejudiced against him when it is they (the fat people) who are always complaining about anti-fat person prejudice in American society.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 01:35 (twenty years ago)

OK, the Matt Hardy theme tune was one of the funniest wrestling moments for time.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 09:26 (twenty years ago)

I don't know about Hassan being built up. Yes, he theoretically had an unbeaten streak, but it was no Tatanka or even Kurt Angle streak. He was being portrayed as being kinda sucky, not exactly a powerhouse. I don't think it was going anywhere and the squash at the expense of building up Cena strong makes sense.

I don't like having the Benjamin-Carlito rematch at Vengeance, because this could be too good of a feud to simply hotshot two title matches in one week. I also love that Benjamin basically lost because of one mistake and then announcers selling it. They should do it more often, because it's more realistic and makes match outcomes more unpredictable. It adds a sort of "turning point" akin to sports.

alex in montreal (alex in montreal), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

Cena didn't need to be built up strong, he's already the most over guy on RAW. I'm not saying that Hassan should have won that match, but what was the point of building the guy up for months, only to have him lose in an unsatisfying squash on a filler edition of RAW to a guy who gained no benefit from the win?

The WWE is full of this type of bullshit lately -- why waste eight months of our time with Hassan only to weakly job him out like this?

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 21 June 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

The Hassan squash was satisfying last night, partly as a kind of merciful end to having poorly used him for the last couple months despite intriguing promise due to good vignettes and a wonderful confro with Mick Foley. They couldn't resist using him for one-off cheap pops to put him in some sort of meaningful feud with another performer.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 03:55 (twenty years ago)

The squash was also satisfying to me because I kind of liked Cena last night. His opening promo was fun; he's become better at getting himself across as a former wrestling fan who has made it as a superstar rather than as a posteuring panderer to what is culturally cool, this quality made a lot of his smackdown promos close to unwatchable for me. Now I find the "chain gang" references charmingly cheesy in a Hulk Hogan way.

His verbal attacks on Hassan accomplished drawing the important distinction between Mohammed's personality being the problem, not race. This distinction became lost in his encounters with other superstars in the past even though this is what made Hassan a good character in the 1st place, he creates his own problems by saying the right thing in a very wrong way.

Also, it was good to give a popular face like Cena some air time, if they're apparently too hesitent to showcase Batista like you'de expect they would. And no long pointless HHH speech!

As a whole, I liked the show last night. To the extent that I'm curious about Vengence.

theodore fogelsanger (herbert hebert), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 04:02 (twenty years ago)

***SPOILER ALERT***

Well Hassan and Daivari are now on Smackdown, and Hassan beat Big Show in his first match. I honestly believe most fans won't remember the Cena squash and the change of scenery is truly a fresh start, so why not job him out? Anyway, I'm glad he's gone from RAW 'cause he was such a boring wrestler (though shame on losing Daivari too, I would've like to see Kurt Angle take him under his wing).

Also, Chris Benoit is now on Velocity.

alex in montreal (alex in montreal), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

I kinda like how theyre doing this Wrestlemania -> draft -> feuds getting wrapped up before a certain wrestler gets drafted. The interpromo matches for Mania also work pretty well for the draft, allowing the HBK-Angle and UT-Orton feuds to continue on the new shows.

The whole new Smackdown title is interesting. If I hadnt just bought the ECW PPV I'd be somewhat inclined to order Vengeance.

Actor Sizemore fails drug test with fake penis (jingleberries), Wednesday, 22 June 2005 17:10 (twenty years ago)

MORE SPOILERS!!! (although everyone reading this thread probably expects these things when they click on it)

Overall, I'd say that the draft was a huge success. The "lottery" was about as random as the order of entrants into the Royal Rumble, but when you're spreading it out over four weeks you need to draft notable names each time. I never thought they'd have the balls to move so many big names, including both champions, but they did it, so kudos to them.

Batista's move looked inevitable from the moment Cena came to RAW, and it was a virtual lock once Cena won his match at the PPV, leaving no other champion that could jump to SD (they were obviously not going to create a whole new "SD championship"). Hopefully this feud with JBL doesn't ruin him right off the bat. Only Batista-Taker and Batista-Eddie are new matchups that have any hope of drawing money on SD.

Odds of HHH opening RAW next week and cutting a promo saying that Batista is a champion with no balls who jumped to SD to duck him: 1-10000000.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 14:43 (nineteen years ago)

So to recap:

Benoit
Orton
Hassan/Daivari
Batista
Christian

Cena
Angle
Carlito
Big Show
RVD

I'm in a situation where I don't get Smackdown (and I rarely get PPVs anymore), so I'm looking forward to see four of the five who came to RAW and I'll miss Benoit and Christian.

I almost wanted to see Cena moved back, because I believe that's the only real money match for Batista on Smackdown (especially if they build a Rock-Austin type rivalry as teased in Triple H's post-Rumble speech). Batista-Taker could draw, but it's basically Brock-Taker, which I'm not sure how money that was (though the matches were pretty good). Plus, Taker's character has changed which makes it kinda difficult now. Eddie-Batista would work only if Eddie is a babyface.

So why does Daivari go with Hassan, but Tomko has to stay on RAW? Hopefully, they'll align him with Jericho.

alex in montreal (alex in montreal), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

What kind of odds do y'all give Batista/HHH at Wrestlemania?

Stuh-du-du-du-du-du-du-denka (jingleberries), Tuesday, 28 June 2005 19:00 (nineteen years ago)

TRADEZ:

RAW brand gets:

Mark Jindrak: Former WCW Tag Team Champion

Rene Dupree: Former WWE Tag Team Champion; former World Tag Team Champion

Danny Basham: Two-time former WWE Tag Team Champion

Kenzo Suzuki (with Hiroko): Former WWE Tag Team Champion

Chavo Guerrero: Five-time former Cruiserweight Champion; two-time former WWE Tag Team Champion

SmackDown! brand gets:

William Regal: Four-time former WCW Television Champion; three-time former Hardcore Champion; four-time former European Champion; former Intercontinental Champion; four-time former World Tag Team Champion

Candice: 2004 RAW Diva Search contestant

Sylvain Grenier: Four-time former World Tag Team Champion

Simon Dean: Former RAW sponsor

Steven Richards: Former two-time ECW Tag Team Champion; former 21-time Hardcore Champion

Stuh-du-du-du-du-du-du-denka (jingleberries), Friday, 1 July 2005 18:27 (nineteen years ago)

Kinda shows you how meaningless it is to be a WWE titleholder these days.

alex in montreal (alex in montreal), Monday, 4 July 2005 11:44 (nineteen years ago)


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