Hollow Knight

This game is so great it deserves its own thread.

I'm now 35 hours or so into this, and I have no idea how much progress I have made. Every time I play it I discover something new, or a new power, or a new secret. The map gets bigger, there are new enemies. And I get better, too. But as I posted on the other thread, I'm still not even sure what the objective is, so I have no clue how close I am to achieving that! Which is a little annoying, except that the design and writing and gameplay is so exemplary I'm having a blast just wandering around, finding and fighting things. I haven't had this much fun playing a game in ages, and I feel like in some ways it's preparing me for when I finally get around to cracking open my copy of Dark Souls on the PS4.

this is a dark souls game posing as a metroid game and i got duped by it

I think it's a great hybrid of lots of stuff, but I think what is key for me is as of yet I'm not sick of looking at it. I just love the art and design. That was my problem with Celeste (besides hurting my thumbs and me not really getting any better at it).

Something else I've liked about it so far is that I don't think I've hit an enemy or spot I couldn't figure out yet, or at least that required some sort of trick or luck or esoteric strategy. Part of that is because you can almost always go another way, or try some other area. You're never actually "stuck," and whether it's a tricky bit of platforming or an enemy there is no help, per se, just sticking with it until you do the thing. I have turned to one or two wikis or videos, but since there is no right or wrong way to proceed - I've heard of people making it super far before even learning they can upgrade their nail - my biggest takeaway has been discovering stuff/routes/secrets I just didn't see or missed. Or in the case of, say, the dash slash or whatever it is called, needing to look up instructions for how to perform it right. The game is definitely tougher than Steamworld, Dig 2, but iirc in that one I encountered more dead ends that required guidance.

An exception are the plumes of smoke coming up from the ground. I had no clue how to pass them and still don't, because I did a quick google and the explanation was convoluted and foreign to me at this point I decided to just cross that bridge when it became more obvious.

And again, I have absolutely no idea how much of this world I have not explored yet. I have a feeling I'm still at the tip of the iceberg.

Heh, I had accumulated over 10,000 geo just goofing around, and then I lost it all doing something stupid (or at least underestimating a commonplace enemy). Oh well, back to the grind!

this game owns

... but is insanely hard

See, posts like that make me wonder if indeed I have only scratched the surface of the game. I've explored tons, but so far nothing has seemed significantly (as in, stuck for hours) hard, at least not compared to Celeste or even Shovel Knight. An exception so far is Crystal Peak, which I find very frustrating, but I seem to be doing OK otherwise! Though to be fair I don't think I've even tried fighting any of the Dream bosses, and my discovery of the flower delivery quest ended in miserable failure when I diligently made it all the way to the (wrong) place only to get injured and lose the challenge at the last second (though I did discover something useful on the way there, so I guess that's a win?).

insanely was maybe an exaggeration but in my defense I was drunk when I posted that. I was stuck on the hornet but just applied a little patience and cleared her pretty handily. about 2/3 hours into the game now

This game is just the right level of challenge, IMO

I am 40 hours deep, and I think in the home stretch. Just did the second fight with Hornet, taken out 2 of the 3 dreamers, and mapped all the areas except one, I think. The plot is still almost totally opaque to me. Is it possible to get the story without having to watch a bunch of lore videos on YouTube?

I am over 40 hours and nowhere near where you are, I don't think ... or I don't know. I keep finding new stuff to distract me. Right now I keep losing my soul ghost in that sealed room with a beating heart and all those manifesting poison-spitting bee-things (not the Hive). I think I have a long way to go, and regret not leaving more markers on my map.

Out of curiosity I glanced online at a map, and thankfully I think I've explored most/much of the world at this point. Now it's just a matter of discovering all the secrets, unlocking powers, beating enemies/bosses/challenges, that sort of thing, which should be fun!

On sale for $10 right now!!!

I've just opened up my fifth station and I love this so far. The atmosphere and rhythm of it is great, not getting a map at first in each area is a clever way to step up the sense of danger.

My one complaint is the annoying decision to assign the unnecessary quick cast to R - it's too close to RT and I've accidentally triggered it at the worst possible moment so many times.

Apparently they just updated it with a big new free DLC.

Whenever I get stuck I admit I glance at an online map, not for any specific hint but for a general direction as to where to go. But I sometimes I also check in with a particular youtube walkthrough, which is only so helpful, given the person is doing different things in a different order. And yet, every once in a while I watch and he pops into some place for the first time, some place I have been to dozens of times, and just immediately knocks down a hidden wall or finds a secret passage. Similarly faces various challenges in a seriously underpowered state, challenges I have problems with even after getting the thing that does the thing. What the fuck, dude!? How do you do that?

Bought it in the sale and enjoying it so far. Does a story/point develop or is it just amiably running and jumping in different directions?

I think the latter? I have played almost 60 hours and have no idea what's going on!

I should stress/clarify that as I progress, things *are*changing and developing, and there is an overarching mythology to the world. I'm just not quite clear on the ultimate goal, or whether I am moving toward it. I'm certainly doing stuff, but I think it's partly a matter of trying different things and exploring different areas until other things and areas make themselves apparent to you. And with those areas and things and powers come more aspects of the mythology.

That said, every once in a while I get stuck and hit the internet for advice, and sometimes the advice is all stuff I'm am totally unfamiliar with! And I've made a lot of progress! "Oh, first you should get the thing from the place after you beat the guy." And I think, huh, that seems harder than what I'm trying to achieve!

I'm enjoying wandering around randomly! I hope I don't have to remember too much about where I've been.

That said I'm wondering about getting a different controller - I'm not sure the basic set that comes with the Switch is really that suited to platforming. Had the same problem with Celeste. It's hard to do little micro-moves with the joystick.

I had a much easier time with this and the regular Switch controllers than I did with Celeste. But Celeste benefitted from the Pro, if only for comfort.

This is great! Maybe the first Switch game outside of Zelda that I feel like I've really connecting with. But even just finding the coin for the quill and compass seems pretty hard!

It gets easier, gradually. But you know what? I've accumulated so many power-ups and charms and abilities, improved my nail three times, and still I have yet to encounter anything that made me feel overpowered. Even the simplest enemies can take you down if you don't pay attention, and some of the simpler enemies suddenly get more difficult as you progress in the game. Nothing is easy, just easier.

I take it back: the Dream Shield charm, plus or minus a couple of others, has really helped me steamroll the last few bosses, even bosses that had given me a lot of trouble before (like Watcher Knights and Hive Knight). I don't know if it counts as overpowered, because I am terrible and need the help, but a few of those charms (plus extra life, etc.) have really made a big difference, at least added to my growing experience.

Another thing: I had made good progress but ran up against a figurative wall and needed to get a hint online. Not only had I totally forgotten about a boss I'd put off, even if I had beat said boss I literally would have had no idea what to do next. I would have just dashed around indefinitely. I don't know if that's because I missed a clue, or didn't understand, or what, but the game's dedication to ambiguity and elliptical mythology would have gotten me nowhere without some concrete direction. How some of these (you?) serious gamers figure all this shit out is beyond me.

Made it to Greenpath! Loving this. Hands hurt.

Wonderful music too.

feels like the jump button has a lag. Or has different timing than most other games.

Jump is fine for me! But finding it a little awkward attacking baddies on the diagonal (although maybe it's meant to be)

I think there's a problem with my controller when not directly connected. or maybe I am just bad.

jumping is really crisp for me. sounds like a controller issue

Like I said, I'm generally not very good at these games, and not being a game ninja it takes me longer than many to get a hang of things, but I've been cruising along at a pretty steady clip here so I assume the controls are pretty solid. My theory is that lots of 8-bit styled platformers, whether something challenging like Shovel Knight or punishing like Celeste, the style of the art lends themselves to very precise control movement, down to the pixel. But Hollow Knight (like Steamworld) is so beautifully stylized/designed/drawn that while it can be challenging it feels a little less pixel-precise. There are a couple places with very tough platform moves and attacks, but it all feels very graceful to me, not at all mechanical. That said, I've yet to be able to master the nail bounce in Hollow Knight, and I think that is the downside of its art style; when there's something specific and mechanical you have to do, doing something based almost on intuition and instinct rather than robotic precision is a bit more trouble. I dunno. I wonder how I'd do at something like Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze.

I feel like I'm in the home stretch of this game by the way, certainly the final 20% or so, though I get the impression there's an advanced mode or something you need to beat to really finish it.

I have three weeks before I go back to work when I thought I'd have a crack at finishing Middlemarch finally, but, uh, Hollow Knight

All right I started playing this and beat the first boss…it’s good

This game is so good that sometimes I can't even tell if I'm even fighting a boss.

Curious to see how Dark Souls hits you Josh. I haven’t played HK yet (have it on the Switch tho, wanna get thru Zelda first), but a lot of things you’re talking about sound very much DS inspired.

I got it all figured out. Hollow Knight, then finish Doom, then Dark Souls. I can tell you right now that Hollow Knight is at times cute, and funny, and always nice to look at, even when it is really dark. Dark Souls is all gloom all the time isn't it?

um, well, there's a certain humor that can potentially be found in dying a lot, if you look at it from one perspective. but yeah, not too cheerful. but it does an excellent job of setting a distinct and memorable mood

Yeah it’s super gloom for the most part but there’s comedy to be had through getting wrecked like Karl said. Also unexpected lols from certain enemies.

Meant more the unexplained, esoteric nature of it. Also it’s supposed difficulty, but sounds like you’re managing it pretty well in HK.

Man, this Hornet is really really really really hard for a second level Boss

Yeah I'm not much farther than you are and I had trouble with Hornet too - all I can say is just be patient, keep your distance, get in a hit or two when you can but just try to avoid her hits and wear her down

I am super stuck on Hornet too. As much as I appreciate not having to fight bosses again if you'd rather just peace out and do something else (and it's cool you can get your shade back without initiating the boss fight), I wish you could just hit "try again" rather than spending a couple minutes after every regen filling up with soul and heading back to their lair.

The Switch is the first videogame system I've played since the PS2, and the deterioration in my skills is never more evident than when I mess up and die fighting Hornet because my hands are sweaty lol. This game is extremely pretty and fun though, and I look forward to maybe getting to see at least one more area.

Hornet is pretty tough. Mantis Lords are super tough. Watcher Knights were hard. I'm trying to remember a few more. None has been totally maddening yet, except maybe Hive boss for me, mostly because I would get my ass kicked on my way there by enemies, so I'd arrive in a weakened state.

I took an hour and like eight tries to beat the soul master today. After taking an hour and like twelve tries to even open up the way to his room. I haven’t played a game tuned to this kind of difficulty since Viewtiful Joe I think. (Which I never beat.) Celeste B-sides are harder but the deaths are much less of a punishment so they don’t key me up as much.

I think - and I could be wrong - that as you go along money/geo becomes less important, so losing that cash (and the time spent accumulating it) isn't as soul destroying. Plus, there's that dude you can unlock up in Dirthmouth who will restore your soul for a rotten egg, which is a) funny and b) a relief. I do like the spikes in difficulty, though. It keeps me engaged. I thought every single second of "Celeste" was tough, which eventually turned me off.

I really hate this game and love it

I'm definitely really close to (I think) the (first) final boss, and I only know that because once again I more or less did everything I thought I was supposed to be doing and literally had no idea what to do next and had to look it up.

can someone come to my house and do hornet please

iirc just take your time and heal when you get the chance. I want to say there are times she gets tired and you are tempted to attack, but sometimes you just got to take one for the team and heal instead.

if you think hornet is hard just wait for hornet v.2

yeah i never got past hornet the game wasn't hooking me enough to persevere

I never beat it after the first ending, iirc, when the difficulty spikes to perverse levels (buzzsaws and boss rushes!), but I had so much fun with the game I may just play it again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_lMn6nalqM

video games are hard to make dude

If that were true, then why are there so many of them?

🤔

Eh

I mean, I’ll buy it but I can wait

This video is pretty jerky

Heh, I agree it's pretty lame. The lack of updates from Team Cherry has been equally mysterious and maddening, though, so I took it as more funny than frustrated. Personally, I kind of admire TC's restraint/radio-silence for going on four years without more than the barest of teases. The last glimpse of gameplay was ... three years ago? Is that right?

60 hours in, i’m probably almost done right? still have at least 10 charms to collect. right now the plan is to finally beat this third colosseum challenge and then go fight the final boss.

loved the experience tho, this game is really impressively deep

I don't know/remember where you are at, exactly, but I believe there is a bit more to do ...

I recommended this to a friend that likes Metroid and Castlevania and generally all points in between, but he found it too oppressively lonely to get into. I don't think he made it far at all, though, so I should pressure him to try again or follow a guide or something.

I loved almost everything about this game, but still ended up bailing after a few (?) bosses due to all the backtracking, getting lost and not knowing where I hadn't been and where I should go, etc.

Yeah I got stuck in the maze after two bosses, but fun while it lasted

I’d love to start from scratch again but there’s no point starting another big game when Zeldas out soon

For a first level boss Hornet was freaking hard a fuck

*er, as fuck

Ori: Will of the Wisps scratched all of the itches of a Metroidvania for me. Hollow Knight felt too monochrome, convoluted, and overly challenging for me and I stopped playing it after about 5-8 hours in. Loved the style, atmosphere and mysteriousness of it, though.

Both Oris are beautiful (in every sense). HK is pretty bleak, though nonetheless pretty cute in its own way.

I think I’m gonna play HK right now. Good plan!

Kind of having my mind boggled that people are calling HK monochrome and too hard when they also play From games.

I loved the bosses and the aesthetic, it was really just the way finding. I think I'm over the Metroidvania thing, it would just stress me out to go past all these areas that were obviously inaccessible until I got some upgrade, then would have to find them all again.

Feels very different from the "aha!" moment you get in a From game when you find the shortcut in a winding level and realize how everything connects.

Just got this game. Died to the first boss

But also I'm playing Ori and they feel quite similar?

I also got stuck/lost and bailed a few hours in. People do love it, but it never really clicked with me. Which is odd cuz I like From games and metroidvania stuff generally. Maybe I’ll give it another spin sometime down the line.

I don’t recall how the map and navigation system works exactly but yeah, I think that was part of what kind of threw the wrench into the works for me.

felt like the first few map areas took me forever to get through but then once i reached the city of tears, the game totally opened up for me. i started navigating and conquering the areas in much shorter times. there is very little hand-holding tho, and it's not always clear where to go (took me forever to find the kingdom's edge smh)

i still haven't mastered the nail arts (rarely use them, prob should use em more), but i've definitely progressed a lot. now i can just demolish that soul warrior guy who it took me something like two hours to beat when i first encountered him in the soul asylum lol

Reportedly Team Cherry quietly changed the "Silksong" domain, which means 6 more weeks of winter.

Been revisiting this in anticipation of whenever Silksong decides to appear. About 15 hours in, just finished Deepnest & Herrah. Is it an unpopular opinion to say this game is maybe *too* big? On my first playthrough, I clocked close to 40 hours and never even finished it, because I just burned out after a while. It makes me wonder if Silksong is going to be even more sprawling, and IDK if I have the stamina for that.

Also I learned recently that there is now a fan-made full voice acting mod, which I just do not understand at all. The gibberish voices are already perfect! I can *kinda* get it from an accessibility standpoint, but from an aesthetic standpoint...meh

I burned out too, the thought of all the Metroidvania backtracking began to feel like a chore. But I really loved the look and feel, and the boss fights, so I'm kinda hoping Silksong will be a tighter experience? Although after all this time I suppose they're going to want to deliver something really big.

i finally got access to the white palace, once i clear this, i think i'm finally ready to fight the knight.

i am def sympathetic to the "too big" feeling, but i have a tendency to completely bury myself in games, so the bigger the better imo. i've clocked close to 100 hours, ready to stop just in time for zelda to take over my life.

Hey gang, just a quick update about Silksong.

We had planned to release in the 1st half of 2023, but development is still continuing. We're excited by how the game is shaping up, and it's gotten quite big, so we want to take the time to make the game as good as we can.

Expect…

— Matthew Griffin (@griffinmatta) May 10, 2023

*gang gets sad*

Ok I'm psyching myself up to get back into this. Curious if it will be possible to get back in the swing of things on my old save, given that I have no memory of anything.

That's sort of a weird waking nightmare I have, that I will be mostly through a challenging game and then get distracted by something else, and by the time I get back to it I have forgotten how to do anything.

Haha. Ok, it took a few bumbling deaths and accidentally selling something for a few hundred currency units and dying again, but I'm back in! Apparently I'm at the Royal Waterway, and I've found two bosses there.

Lol, yesterday I beat the infamous Dung Defender, then in the next area I threw all of my money in a fountain just before running into the map seller and the paid bench unlock for the area. I guess I thought it might function like a bank? That one is really on me.

i love the dung defender

I'm fully committed now, but I've seldom had less idea where I'm supposed to go in a video game.

I've got the super dash and the double jump so now we're fully ready to wander.

I accessed the 'dream nail' version of one of the bosses (Broken Vessel/Lost Kin) for the first time, did you all do those? Is it worth it? I like the boss battles but I'm not especially compelled to repeat them, but maybe it's something you do later on when you're fully powered up?

It's been too long to remember the details, but I don't recall a clear incentive to do all the dream nail battles. But I didn't do all the post-game/deep endgame stuff, either, so maybe it has something to do with that?

Lol, yesterday I beat the infamous Dung Defender, then in the next area I threw all of my money in a fountain just before running into the map seller and the paid bench unlock for the area. I guess I thought it might function like a bank? That one is really on me.

― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Thursday, May 11, 2023 3:08 PM (one month ago) bookmarkflaglink

If put 3000 geo in it gives you a vessel fragment, which I only discovered after looking at a guide and trying to figure out how I'd missed so many upgrades

I'm currently playing on the Switch which I'm convinced has some control issues over the PC version, I've played both now and I don't think it's just me. It just feels like something is slightly off and they aren't tight enough to pull off certain moves with confidence every time. I find I'm constantly ending up diving straight into the ground when I should be going left/right, and it feels the game only randomly decides when you've successfully pulled off a downstrike or not leading to some sections just being absolute misery. Trying to obtain the vessel fragment in Deepnest is the worst so far, total hell.

Supposedly there's been some movement on the Silksong front. Has there ever been a game that missed an entire console generation between announcement and release?

duke nukem forever was announced in 1997 and released in 2011. and wow was it worth the wait!!!!

Def the Chinese Democracy of games. That Bethesda game that came out last year was under dev for at least 10 years, but apparently only announced 5 years before it came out.

When did half life 3 come out again?

When it finally drops, I'll be curious what the story was that drove development to take so long. I don't care if they're a small studio, the first game took a small handful of people only 3-4 years to create. 7+ years is a long time for this genre, even if a solo developer was putting it together. I'd be willing to bet the pandemic and lockdown had a huge negative impact.

Though perhaps it will be like 2-3 times the size of the first game; an Elden Ring style expansion over DS3?

I assume they calculated their days-cash-on-hand and decided to blow up the scope

Delays are understandable, but I wonder what accounts for Team Cherry's near complete radio silence?

They don’t owe you shit is what

For sure. That's why they don't *have* to do it. But they do have a web presence - twitter, facebook, youtube, website - just not one that's updated. At this point I'm honestly more worried for the team than anxious for a new game.

You think this team of three people who made bank with their first game are struggling to keep the lights on?

No, I was thinking more mentally/emotionally.

Yeah true... I imagine they won't be rushing into Hollow Knight 3 after this one drops.