Linear vs. Non-Linear

GTA has its cake and eats it, as it's more a case of an optional linearity you can dip in and out of. Which gives it an edge over super-linear stuff to me, since you can expand the storyline of a non-linear game in yr own imagination, or just hang out and really get to know a world in a way that linear games are always denying you, as they drag you on towards the next plot twist and stop you from going backwards to look at the pretty flowers you've just stomped thru.

ya GTA is definitely one of those "go into the linear tunnel" games.

what are examples of completely non-linear games, besides stuff like civ or strategy games?

is there really such a thing?

Can't think off the top of my head. Something like Morrowind in theory you could play as a hack and slash level-grind without hardly entering the main plot, I think, but what would be the point?

Sports titles.

A game ?I actually want to start working on in the near future is basically a half-linear narrative-based sports title, where you play one player (probably baseball) and make all of the decisions about waht you do with your career, fom where you go to college to who you let inject steroids in your butt (seriously).

The Fallout games have a certain non-linearity in that you're neveer "locked" into anything; you can woble around and do shit at your own leisure, and shot pretty much anything in the game if you choose, or beguile/charm/stab anything.

Is it linear if a game SUGGESTS a direction instead of ENFORCING it? or is that non-linear?

In addition to sports games you also have other procedural-based games like anything made by Will Wright, but the problem in these types of games is that it relies on the user to create their own emergent narrative if that's what they're into. Luckily right is incredibly gifted at making you give a crap about the world/house/species/zoo/farm/ant hill/tower you create.

isn't this game non-linear/boring?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1WOEMGtAqg

I loved the scenes in HL2 which didn't feel linear even though they completely were. Like at the beginning when you're in the apratment buildings and suddenly you're getting chased and the dudes go "quick this way" so you go that way and then you think "shit where now" and you see a hole in the roof so you go through the hole, and then you run along the ledge 'cause well it's there... all the time you're in a state of panic so you don't have time to examine your surroundings, every choice is hobson's choice but you don't actually notice.

Endless Ocean's got a short-ish linear plot that you can choose to dip in or out of, tho it might get a bit insistent on that score from what I remember. I wouldn't call it straight boring, let's just say it's not one for the adrenaline junkies. I enjoyed it for a few weeks, will probably go back to it occasionally.

I loved the scenes in HL2 which didn't feel linear even though they completely were. Like at the beginning when you're in the apratment buildings and suddenly you're getting chased and the dudes go "quick this way" so you go that way and then you think "shit where now" and you see a hole in the roof so you go through the hole, and then you run along the ledge 'cause well it's there... all the time you're in a state of panic so you don't have time to examine your surroundings, every choice is hobson's choice but you don't actually notice.

so fucking well otm, one of the most well designed moments in game design history. It's like the next available option presents itself to you in such a subtle way, your brain is thinking just a little ahead of itself at the same time. It tricks you into thinking that that route was your own idea, but it's actually the only route to take. Fabulous.

first thought was world of balance FFVI vs. world of ruin FFVI but I think I care a lot more about non-linear gameplay than I do about non-linear storylines/world exploration.

Like, Persona 3's superstructure follows the calendar so you can only do certain things in November or get certain items on your free days. And the story follows the calendar so there's no way to short around certain tasks or do G before D but there are paths/options within each day. So although what you do is non-linear how you achieve each goal is (relatively) open and that in turn determines how you develop yr character, what social interactions you can have &c. So you can actually replay the game and get a totally different experience. With GTA, yeah you can drive around anywhere but once you've beat a mission it's not like you can go back and beat that mission in a different way or with a different character.

yes, yes, yes re: the disguised linear plot.

COD4 is a bit liek that too.

is GTA more like two games set in the same basic setting with the same basic rules of combat/physics but which are quite different?

i think non-linearity sacrifices a lot of, let's say, purpose. driving around liberty city is really fun but it's almost an uncanny valley situation where it kind of feels like a "real" city but at the same time there is so little you can actually interact with it besides crashing into/shooting things that it's a bit frustrating. it's so real-feeling but not real at all and that's an interesting tension i think.

"non-linear" as applied to narrative is a non-starter unless you want to talk about, like, arkanoid et al.

non-linear in terms of gameplay is the more important thing, e.g. having many different ways to accomplish a goal as Lamp describes (and Will above re: Fallout games)

are "casual" games as a whole more apt to be totally linear in that regard?
I suspect they are, and I also suspect this is because developing and testing non-linearity w/r/t problem solving in a game (event trees, dependencies, flags for this and that) is way harder than it's worth for something that's "just supposed to be fun"

driving around liberty city is really fun but it's almost an uncanny valley situation where it kind of feels like a "real" city but at the same time there is so little you can actually interact with it besides crashing into/shooting things that it's a bit frustrating

that's why multiplayer free-mode is even more fun i think, there are other real actual people in the city that you can interect with.

or interact

are "casual" games as a whole more apt to be totally linear in that regard?
I suspect they are, and I also suspect this is because developing and testing non-linearity w/r/t problem solving in a game (event trees, dependencies, flags for this and that) is way harder than it's worth for something that's "just supposed to be fun"

-- El Tomboto, Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:01 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Link

but aren't most casual games stuff like sudoku or brain age where linear / non-linear doesn't really apply?

"non-linear" as applied to narrative is a non-starter unless you want to talk about, like, arkanoid et al.

good point except arkanoid, viewed as a narrative, would be TOTALLY linear right?

i think what we're getting at here is what you're saying, that you really can't call narrative games non-linear even if they let you walk around a village.

Could describe them as deferred or optional linearity I suppose.

As somebody who's never enjoyed my brief experiences of MMO RPGs, mainly because virtually every other player seems to be doing no RP and a lot of level-grinding/dicking about, I still long for a single-player RPG that can simulate a sense of open-ended narrative. I think Morrowind and its expansions have a good go at some aspects of this, but are trapped within the limits Tom talked about up there - it'd take too much programming to offer up enough complexity. I understand Oblivion takes that path a bit further still. I've never got to play Fable but I guess that offers a take on another aspect of the problem. Randomly generated Rogue-likes offer yet another approach to part of this.

As we get bigger memory machines, more complexity, faster processing, it might be that games get closer and closer to pseudo-non-linearity. It'll be a bit like a choose your own adventure but with enough different potential outcomes to create the feeling that each game has a different narrative, but some kind of narrative nonetheless. Biggest obstacle is probably how few people give a shit about playing a game like that. But maybe some amateurs will take some kind of ongoing leap towards it.

Didn't True Crime do that?

And to be honest, I'm sure that's how they were advertising GTA4 in some previews. Which didn't really turn out to be the case did it.

(well there were some moments, and the ending, but nothing gave you that sense of being in control of the outcomes i thought)

GTA3 had more linear objectives than the others, to the point that you could actually murder someone who was supposed to provide you missions further on in the game. Thus you could play it without ever reaching 100%, haha.

gah! more "NON-linear" objectives i meant.

good point except arkanoid, viewed as a narrative, would be TOTALLY linear right?

i think what we're getting at here is what you're saying, that you really can't call narrative games non-linear even if they let you walk around a village.

no; arkanoid or tetris are TOTALLY non-linear as regards narrative because you the player can make up whatever storyline you want to explain what is going on. does that make sense? "the falling blocks are arguments supporting the theory of evolution and I'm an intelligent design proponent, arranging them in a fashion such that they form a cohesive whole and are summarily destroyed" or "I am the bar at the bottom and the ball is my little brother, together we destroy the neighbor's lego collection"

BUT: abstract puzzle games like the above tend to have COMPLETE linearity as far as gameplay goes; there is really only one proscribed method for solving the problems you're given, one constant game mechanic at work.

so on the other hand, you have games which are "non-linear" in terms of how you choose to solve the many problems, and literally dozens of different mechanics at work for you to wrangle with, and you're allowed to fool about without punishment; but narratively, they're strictly linear; even Chrono Trigger only has one ending, the one where you beat Lavos.

There's a difference between non-linear narrative and non-existant narrative. Of course something that doesn't exist doesn't go in a straight line. So Arkanoid is only "non-linear" in narrative insofar that it doesn't HAVE one.

The title refers to a doomed "mothership" from which the Vaus escapes.

plenty of games like that had a "narrative" it's just that nobody ever gave a shit
consider that in galaga you could just as easily be fighting your way home as you are trying to defend whatever

still waiting for a "non-linear" narrative - it is kind of reductionist to point out that all games are about getting from point A to point B and that's that but it's also completely true which is why whenever somebody points out that a game is "linear" I have the O RLY response

I mean in shit like BioShock, right, the developers give you "two" endings but in point of fact everybody knows which one is the "real" one. give me a fucking break this JRPG is too "linear" for you, you just like HALO and this isn't HALO so you hate it (LOOKING AT YOU GAMES PRESS)

Shadowrun for Genesis seemed really non-linear, but i never got far enough to tell for sure. i'm sure the narrative tightened up once you stumbled on the right missions/clues/etc.

Games that try to actually implement some sense of non-linearity tend to end up sucking (HI DERE BLACK & WHITE).

Games like Guardian Heroes, that have a linear structure that branches at certain decision points, leading you to a particular ending based on which stages you beat/chose to play, are fucking awesome and super-replayable.

tom i see what you're saying re: arkanoid but (and this may ONLY be me) i always kept the storyline of trying to escape this big spaceship in my head when i played it!! so in that sense i was treating it like a linear narrative.

which is a different thing i guess... games where you can map a narrative onto something that's pretty abstract otherwise. do career modes in sports games count as that?

I still long for a single-player RPG that can simulate a sense of open-ended narrative
Isn't this just The Sims?

Still waiting for a "non-linear" narrative - it is kind of reductionist to point out that all games are about getting from point A to point B and that's that but it's also completely true

Didn't the Prince of Persia PS2 games have a non-linear narrative? I thought the flashbacks happened out of chronological order. Of coure that's a pretty good illustration of the narrative vs. game structure thing you talk about - actual gameplay is v. linear (stage 2 follows stage 1 &c.) but the game's world reveals itself in an uncertain, patchwork fashion.

Original Alone in the Dark had a similar mosiac-like narrative too + fairly non-linear gameplay as well. Although ultimately that game is about escaping the house so maybe my memory is exaggerating the non-linearity for argument's sake.

Alone in the Dark was very good in that you could go into practically any room you wanted but certain ones would be instant death if you hadn't achieved the objectives in others first.

haha yeah, one thing I think that never gets pointed out re: "disappointingly linear" JRPG-type games is that the typically massive avenues of exploration on the world maps create many, many opportunities to wander farrrrrrr out of your depth and get the party wiped, usually all the way up until the endgame. I did this in DQ8 and was so determined to get the casino re-opened that I wound up about a half-dozen levels ahead of myself for like the next five or six major story events