MVP 2024

i think its between the last three and will come down to who has the highest seed

want big honey obv

voting ends after the last day of the season.

I agree the voters will probably end up docking giannis when the bucks end up with a 5th or 6th seed

out of the other three I do think it will most likely come down to seeding which is why luka is probably also a big long shot. he’s playing as well as ever right now though

I’ve watched 95% of nuggets games this year and I think jokic has slipped a bit on defense, but I truly do think he’s pacing himself a bit. he’s been great in the clutch on both ends. if the nuggets charge to the 1 seed Inthink it’s a foreigner conclusion. I still think he’s the best player in the league

shai is just so good, like an evolved dwyane wade. he’s also probably the most consistent night in and night out and is plus plus on both ends, though his defensive position is less important. sort of feel like what he’s doing has somehow been underappreciated, like the average reply guy thinks the idea he’s in the same conversation as the rest of these guys is laughable or something. he’s probably my pick right now

there’s only 6 weeks left so it’s pretty hard to imagine someone else seriously contending. I sort of look at tatum and kawhi similarly, great players having great seasons for really good teams…but if they haven’t convinced voters by this point I’m not sure what will. clearly a level below for me though (I actually think luka might be borderline in this tier too but his numbers lately are hard to ignore)

should mention obviously that embiid probably would have run away with this if he’d stayed healthy and it’d have been deserved (unlike last year)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GHCn42YWsAAQQL3?format=jpg&name=large

yeah luka can get there if they climb the ranks but hes def a long shot. i also think theres some "he'll get one at some point" attitude towards him.

then theres the thing where giannis and jokic have already won twice each and getting three is some rarified air so there's some fatigue or whatever associated w that.

im leaning shai but they have to finish above denver and he needs to keep cooking, also might need 1-2 really big games/moments that gets some narrative attention going his way. like a 60 point game or whatever. hes so consistently scoring 25-35 and doing the same thing every night that he kinda loses that dynamic aspect of mvp-ing

lukas 3p% is pretty high right now interested to see if thats the new norm or just one of his ~1/2 season heaters

yeah one of the wildest shai stats is that he’s averaging 31 a game and his season high is 43. that makes no sense

also hes kind of an enigma and the average fan doesnt really know are care about him. league has done absolutely nothing to promote him.

yup. a bit like jokic in that way, though after the last few years of dominance the average fan at least knows him as “the guy who doesn’t care about basketball”

it's clear that jokic is the best player and should get it, but the voters shy away from keeping the award in one player's hands season after season, so his uneven play this season (by his standards) will be seen as an excuse to divert MVP elsewhere.

shai stands out just because okc made such a leap this year and he's seen as the player who gets the main credit for it. imo, he's a slight favorite with embiid out of the runnning.

otoh, it's funny that tatum isn't mentioned at all. he isn't "the best player", but he is "the best player for the best team" and he's been delivering at a high level for more years than shai, so he's got a shot. luka is a phenomenon, but widely disliked, so... nope.

yeah tatum should be in the convo but just seems to have zero buzz behind him. players that have two other 20ppg scorers on their team tend to get left out

yup. a bit like jokic in that way, though after the last few years of dominance the average fan at least knows him as “the guy who doesn’t care about basketball”

― brony james (k3vin k.), Friday, February 23, 2024 4:12 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah jokic has the anti-personality personality that kinda works, or is at least somewhat noteworthy.

jokic has like 5-7 plays per game that could go on a highlight reel. sga has probably about ten on the season and they're all kinda the same... snatchback pull-up middie that leaves someone crossed up (he def was pumped about fooling curry)

As we were saying

Most games in a season with 30-34 points all time. Shai is now at 29.

It doesn't get any more consistent than this. https://t.co/vXg3I6jlLS pic.twitter.com/BXKH48tuDe

— Automatic (@automaticnba) February 24, 2024

luka is dead in the water to finish top 3 at this point but somewhat unrelated I just need to get this off my chest, he’s not a point guard, he’s a forward, are lebron and jokic point guards just because they pass a lot, this is getting ridiculous

He’s so not a PG

I'm not sure why luka is a forward if he has the same duties as a PG. magic johnson was (is) 6' 9", he once played at the guard, forward and center positions all in the same playoff game, but there's no controversy over whether he was a PG.

he doesn’t defend point guards and there are multiple smaller teammates on the floor with him at all times it’s not hard

it’s not hard

It's hard enough. I mean, the Dallas Mavericks haven't figured it out, yet. They list him on the roster as a PG. You'd think they'd have a clue.

He plays with… Kyrie.

Maybe we should ask Kyrie if Luka's a PG. I bet he'd know.

^^^

Perhaps we can all agree that no matter what his position is, Luka's not getting the MVP this season.

concur

voted jokic hes the best player, i wouldve voted tatum if he was on there but the other button just doesnt carry the same thrill

imho lukas not a pg but also that role doesnt really exist anymore anyway so who cares

shais having an amazing year but i dont think the award should go to someone whos never done it in the playoffs i want to see him on the big stage, feel like he could win it if the thunder finish strong tho just due to jokic fatigue

ive always been somewhat of a luka skeptic but this year my opinion of him has slipped a lil further, just reflecting upon how much brunson and zinger are thriving away from him i think this having the ball all the time thing is maybe worse than i already thought, seems like theres just not room for other guys to play their games they just have to play luka ball kinda wait around for him to pass it then if you cant get anything you give it back where hes just been standing in the same spot, add that to the terrible defense dicey endurance and crybaby attitude and while hes obvs insanely good just look at the numbers hes also flawed and doesnt seem to be improving in those areas

I agree that Jokic fatigue is a real thing among the voters, but doesn't the MVP voting take place before the playoffs start, so OKC's playoff run wouldn't be a factor on Shia's MVP results?

its just hes never played in playoffs as the main guy at all and i want to see him show out before i decide hes one of the best players, i mean you could vote based just on this years regular season which is kind of the idea but i dont think most actual voters even do that

im surprised hes in the conversation tbh its usually guys who have gotten a lil more shine

Hard to ignore the stats and team standing but as started I think he has to get the 1 seed to get it

yeah agreed

mavs are in 8th right now, only a game and a half up on the dubs and lakers. very real risk of not getting out of the play-in, which should fully sink luka's case (mavs fans are lucky that they can't fall out of the play-in, otherwise they might try to tank out again lol). even if they go on a crazy run they're not getting higher than 5th. looking at luka's #s up there, they're pretty eye popping but he really needs to either consistently play good d, make his teammates better, or figure out how to play off the ball. if he did two of those he could be mvp

he doesnt seem to want to do any of those things

a change of scenery to a more serious organization might benefit him

lukaball baby

a change of scenery to a more serious organization might benefit him

― lag∞n, Monday, March 4, 2024 10:39 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

i know a place

he’s going to denver for his next contract, jokic has been greasing the wheels

that would be a war crime haha

just reflecting upon how much brunson and zinger are thriving away from him i think this having the ball all the time thing is maybe worse than i already thought, seems like theres just not room for other guys to play their games they just have to play luka ball

i don't think this is entirely fair to luka. for one jalen brunson did thrive playing next to him, it's why he got a $100m deal after being picked in the second round. obviously his numbers now look way bigger and he is good enough to be a no 1 on his own team, but luka is a much better player so that's just how that cookie is gonna crumble. zinger clearly wasn't healthy in dallas, like he could not move around, he could not do anything against smaller guys in the post. i don't think he and luka got along clearly -- it's very obvious now that luka prefers playing w/ a lob threat rather than a pick and pop threat -- but i'm not gonna buy any retconning of that era of zinger like he was the same guy we're seeing now. dude just wasn't that good at NBA basketball. i watched him try and move around in space in the playoffs. i also think he needed to be sent off to NBA siberia and be humbled about his place in the league. the zinger that luka got was the one who was traded for a bunch of assets and given a max deal before even stepping on the court. it's a lot different

i think the thing that should really sting dallas over losing brunson is not the loss of the talent but that brunson by all accounts was happy playing second fiddle to luka. i think finding that personality type is going to be hard

brunson really broke out when luka was injured, story he told on the podcast is that luka went down he went nuts and the mavs finally offered him the extension at which point he said no, so based on both his and the mavs readings i dont think it was just a being lower usage second banana situation, he played better without luka, and then that scenario repeated in the playoffs that year when luka went down

i'm not gonna buy any retconning of that era of zinger like he was the same guy we're seeing now

well he mustve magically turned into that guy immediately upon being traded to the wiz cause he had a great season there, or maybe lukaball isnt that great for non luka players, which also just makes sense from a basketball pov

zinger is a good roll man btw, and he can pop, hes a really good player

i do have to thank the mavs and luka for driving zingers value into the ground tho, celtics got him AND two firsts for smart lmao, im only ashamed that i believed the zinger slander

Wow Jokic is really pulling away in the MVP race according to Vegas pic.twitter.com/4nqLV36gEo

— Jack 🏹📋 (@murray_center27) March 12, 2024

it’s all over baby

ya congrats to the joker "why so serious"

Also Ruh-Roh. pic.twitter.com/QoXjzxuu8Q

— Hardwood Paroxysm (@HPbasketball) March 25, 2024

well he mustve magically turned into that guy immediately upon being traded to the wiz cause he had a great season there, or maybe lukaball isnt that great for non luka players, which also just makes sense from a basketball pov

― lag∞n, Tuesday, March 5, 2024 1:14 PM (two weeks ago)

sorry just reading this back

in all seriousness for whatever culpability luka had in zinger's play in dallas, i think the biggest culprit was the head coach. remember when carlisle had that whole public rant about how the post up was dead and how porzingis needed to be spacing the floor all the time?

“The post-up just isn’t a good play anymore. It just isn’t a good play. It’s not a good play for a 7-3 guy. It’s a low-value situation. Our numbers are very substantial that when he spaces beyond the 3-point line, you know, we’re a historically good offensive team. And when any of our guys go in there, our effectiveness is diminished exponentially. It’s counterintuitive, I understand that, but it’s a fact. I think there’s certain situations where it makes sense. If we can get him on a roll in the paint towards the rim, that’s a good situation. And that’s what we’ll try to do with all our guys.

“We don’t post anybody up. We post Luka up every once in a while when he has a real small guy on him. But even those situations, the value of those situations has plummeted. We’ve got to realize that this game has changed. It’s changed. It’s just a fact. And he’s a guy when he spaces beyond the arc, above the break, is a historically great all-time 3-point shooter with unbelievable efficiency. And the thing I like about his game now is his reads have gotten better. His spacing is such that when people run at him, he’s now driving the ball directly for dunks. He’s throwing some really cool lob passes to (Dwight) Powell. I mean, you’ve got a 7-3 guy throwing to a 6-10 guy on a lob? That’s pretty (expletive) cool if you ask me.

“Let’s get off of all this stuff that KP needs to go in the post. He doesn’t. He doesn’t. I’m OK with him going in there once in a while, but we don’t post anybody. It’s nothing personal against him. Look, he’s used to doing it because they ran the triangle for two or three years when he was (with the Knicks). Who’s running the triangle now? Has anyone seen anyone running the triangle offense? The triple post? If you do, raise your hand, because I wanna see who you are. Because I haven’t seen it. Because that offense is extinct. Look, it went extinct when Phil Jackson retired. He’s the only one who ever had any success with it. He’s a genius and a master of it, but look, we’ve got to get off of this thing. We’ve got to treat KP with some respect. And respect him for what he is. He’s a historically great player. And quit criticizing him because he’s 7-3. That’s what everybody’s doing. I don’t care who it is. I don’t care if it’s people on TV or anything else.”

and there was stuff like this...

According to Second Spectrum data, Kristaps Porzingis has averaged 0.606 points per direct postup this season.

That ranks last among 66 players with at least 35 postups this season. Next worst efficiency? Boban Marjanovic at 0.700. For context, Porzingis has 84 total postups. https://t.co/k6yYcrxtQP

— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) December 27, 2019

maybe it's a chicken and egg situation here between carlisle saying post ups don't work and his big guy won't be posting up and zinger being horrible at posting up in dallas. but i find it hard to read the head coach being this passionate about how post ups suck and then pinning the star center's shitty play on the point guard

i think it's hard to watch guys like derek lively II and daniel gafford play w/ luka and say that lukaball is bad for non luka bigs. maybe it's bad for spot up shooting bigs? but luka is so accurate and creative w/ passes to spot up shooters that i find that hard to believe

i think zinger was in a bad situation in dallas -- injured, tons of pressure to be a star, coach was just incredibly toxic to everyone including luka. the fact that luka handles the ball a lot is much further down the list for me

also for as wonderful as zinger has been in boston and how bad he was in dallas, there is a very basic aspect that boston nailed and dallas did not. and that's if you took jaylen brown off the celtics and made their two best players tatum & zinger i don't think anyone would be considering them favorites in the east let alone in the league. so it's great team building by boston, found the right role for zinger's skillset, they don't ask him to be a better player than he is, applause all around. all the issues w/ his game and role in dallas flowed from the asking him to be something (an all star) that he is not

dallas did absolutely the shittiest job possible employing zinger playing to his strengths and so forth, also theres no way to play to any other players strengths in luka ball, if your strengths happen to compliment luka then you might do ok but youre never going to max out your game, the fact youre left with gafford and and lively guys who can only dunk as beneficiaries of lukaball is more damning than it is exonerating, they dont have a game to max out, besides jumping

guys like kyrie and brunson who can create their own offense are prob best off under the luka regime cause when they happen to get the ball they can just do their own thing theyre not reliant on luka to get put in a good spot, but theyre not going to fully flourish that way

yeah i think the fully flourish thing is where it starts to get slippery to me bcuz it implies that the second best player should be in equal standing w/ the best player and that isn't the case. do the mavs have a flourishing problem or a talent problem?

i just think so much of it is about buy in, one of the advantages of free agency as player movement over trades is that you have guys choosing their situations. chris bosh didn't have an issue adjusting from being a post focal point to a floor spacing role player because he chose that for himself. porzingis was thrust into that role in a more unwilling fashion and nothing ever was right from there, tho the way the mavs handled the situation, coach going on rants in public about how zinger sucks at posting up etc didn't help either

you need to max out the talent of all your players regardless of where they are in the hierarchy, sometimes thats more possible than others which is i think what were talking about when we talk about fit, its hard to fit with luka, dallas seemingly hasnt been able to put enough talent around him but they let zinger and bruson walk, theres no getting around the fact that theyve had talent and squandered it, is it all lukas fault certainly not dallas being a shitty org run by the whims of an immature billionaire is the deeper problem, but luka had been shaped by that theyve allowed him to play no d and stand around off ball and basically just do whatever he wants, and now thats kinda who he is as a player, which is a significant impediment to success in the nba

all things considered i dont see luka getting a ring in dallas, maybe if he went to a better situation

i don’t disagree with the stuff about luka being babied. different convo tho & a lot of superstars go thru that. one of the whole things w/ lebron and miami was tension arising from them refusing to make him the center of the universe etc

but i think jalen brunson inarguably flourished playing next to luka and by all accounts he enjoyed doing so, when he left he was just looking for more money there was nothing about him wanting a different role or whatever. maybe brunson is just a god send of a personality. but from my POV luka was hugely beneficial to brunson’s career and it was the mavs FO that blew that one

he didnt flourish like he did when he wasnt playing with luka, that goes for both when luka was injured and once he went to new york, dallas had a very strong second option and they treated him like an afterthought

now hes the first option on a team thats better than the mavs

if he was really so flourishy with the mavs i dont think they wouldve been unwilling to give him starter money

i can't envision a scenario where anyone plays like jalen brunson in new york while also being on luka's team, like... mathematically speaking, so i'm not sure where to take the convo from here. on every team there is going to be a top dog on offense and then everyone else

i guess we'll see how far you can get w/ jalen brunson as your best player i'm starting to lose the logic of the argument here

theres enough shots lots of teams have two guys who score a lot of points its normal

you look at brunson numbers from his second to last season there where he was getting 25mins and shooting 52/40/80 and its so wild that they didnt extend him, forget about what hes turned into now just what he was giving them then was enough, unbelievable

the mvp convo seems to have petered out. seems like nobody's playing well enough to justify taking it from jokic.

if you look at the last decade of the NBA there's basically 3 homegrown superstar champions and those are steph, giannis and jokic. i think it would be very fair to point out that, based on what we know publicly, luka comports himself on and off the court in a much different fashion than those three players in ways that likely speak directly to winning

Looks like the MVP race is officially a wrap folks pic.twitter.com/xeVIylOaaP

— Jack 🏹📋 (@murray_center27) March 25, 2024

but i think his usage rate is less of a factor than the stuff about his attitude, his work ethic and weight etc xp to myself

jokic showed up to the bubble looking like a different player physically and that was actually a real change, his body has stayed that way and his game has gone to the stratosphere along with it

luka offseasons are always some random pics on twitter where he looks skinny and then he shows up to camp fat and slow. this is the stuff i'd look at before i wanted him passing the ball more

i feel like the stamina thing is really the skeleton key w/ him. modulate your energy throughout the season, be fresher in the playoffs, get your teammates involved more. win win for everyone

luka and jokic are an interesting comparison from a usage rate and style of play pov too

luka is one of the few guys in the nba you could say is more skilled than jokic but jokic outthinks him bigtime

how much of how they play stems from the fact that one of them was a teenage phenom and one of them wasn't even the first center picked by his team in his own draft

the amazing thing about lebron of course is that he plays like jokic while having the pedigree of luka

apparently jokic has always just been like this, but who knows how it wouldve affected him to be euroleague mvp at 18 etc

jokic is also a much better athlete, I’ve almost never seen him fatigued in the past few years, luka otoh has had some well known stamina issues

yeah jokers stamina is at very high levels now, which is crazy considering he looks exhausted mouth breathing red face bleeding one minute into every game

lukas style of play and stamina issues are def related just having the ball all the time is tiring and he plays a very physical style which is also particularly tiring

yeah i don’t mean to be all pop psychologist about pre draft hype and play style. jokic’s style of play is obv just innate… there are guys like gilbert arenas who were overlooked and are chuckers or MJ types who use it as fuel for their entire career in toxic ways. but i do think luka’s problems boil down less to play style in that sense than just being justifiably extremely entitled at a very young age. his story makes for an interesting contrast w/ jokic in that way and there feels like something that threads thru for me in terms of their personalities and how they play but it would be correlation not causation, i wanna be clear

maybe divac was right about the docic family

lebron was an unselfish player on the court by nature but he was also stubborn in the way entitled young people typically are. by which i mean that he didn't meaningfully alter his game until he got humiliated by the mavs in the finals in 2010, which forced him to learn how to play from the post. that was when lebron was 26-27 years old. luka is 25 right now. we assume he gets humbled in the playoffs in the next two years, if not in the same naked way then at least in the sense that he won't be winning anything. so does luka make the changes he needs to make (to his body and prob somewhat to his game) or does the entitlement fester?

id have more hope for that stuff if he werent on the mavs who have catered to him totally and are run by an entitled immature man

for sure. but so were the cavs! i think we're in agreement that luka needs to leave for a stricter environment, one w/ a strong shall we say culture?

if you think back to jokic and even giannis to some extent they had moments where weaknesses in their games were exposed early in the playoffs, they didn't wait until getting to an even bigger stage and being embarrassed to then do the things ppl have been saying for years that they need to do. it doesn't seem like luka has the same mindset

luka needs to leave for a stricter environment, one w/ a strong shall we say culture?

― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Monday, March 25, 2024 3:30 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

luka to heat confirmed lol

for sure. but so were the cavs! i think we're in agreement that luka needs to leave for a stricter environment, one w/ a strong shall we say culture?

― slob wizard (J0rdan S.), Monday, March 25, 2024 3:30 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

luka and jokic are bffs and he’s going to the nuggets on a sign and trade for his next contract, book it

I must also point out that jokic was never exposed in the playoffs he’s always been really good

luka and jokic are bffs and he’s going to the nuggets on a sign and trade for his next contract, book it

― brony james (k3vin k.), Monday, March 25, 2024 3:42 PM (thirty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

this should not be allowed tho it is the one thing that will save luka from himself

i think it’s fair to say that jokic has improved on defense generally and that the nuggets as a team figured out how they wanted to defend pick and rolls when jokic was in conflict and got really good at executing their scheme over time

don't think you could argue for him winning it over Joker but Giannis's numbers are better than they were both times he actually won it

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

the people have spoken. jokic is finally the most impactful half court player in the league

markieff morris will vouch for that

for those who missed the news, nikola jokic has won the MVP award

it was written in The Book of Life on day one. at least it felt that way.