cp3 v. d-will

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Poll Results

OptionVotes
chris paul 13
deron williams 4


eman, Thursday, 12 March 2009 17:59 (sixteen years ago)

Anyone not voting Chris Paul is insane.

Alex in SF, Thursday, 12 March 2009 18:38 (sixteen years ago)

I love Deron Williams btw, but seriously this is not close.

Alex in SF, Thursday, 12 March 2009 18:41 (sixteen years ago)

yeah

wow heaven is cool (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 12 March 2009 18:42 (sixteen years ago)

some broadcaster the othere day was saying that Williams has a much better outside shot.

carne asada, Thursday, 12 March 2009 18:43 (sixteen years ago)

He's also bigger and probably a better one-on-one defender. Big whoop.

Alex in SF, Thursday, 12 March 2009 18:45 (sixteen years ago)

yeah,a lot of the stuff CP does on the floor is some straight up witchcraft.

carne asada, Thursday, 12 March 2009 18:50 (sixteen years ago)

lol tru

wow heaven is cool (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 12 March 2009 18:51 (sixteen years ago)

chris doesn't slack on his master minding duties ever. but he gets owned head to head. but that's mostly bringing up old shit. cp3

peace pipe to youur lips (tremendoid), Friday, 13 March 2009 00:04 (sixteen years ago)

deron is a better shooter and more versatile defender cp3 owns everything else

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 00:44 (sixteen years ago)

it is interesting how much better deron has been head to head tho

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 00:45 (sixteen years ago)

voting d-will just to be that guy. i also think that the 'this is not close' argument is retarded

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 02:34 (sixteen years ago)

your move, williams

droling lapdogs (hmmmm), Friday, 13 March 2009 03:03 (sixteen years ago)

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 03:17 (sixteen years ago)

deron

moullet, Friday, 13 March 2009 03:56 (sixteen years ago)

hahaha poor jason terry

droling lapdogs (hmmmm), Friday, 13 March 2009 04:38 (sixteen years ago)

"i also think that the 'this is not close' argument is retarded"

But it's not close. Every single metric shows Paul as being not only significantly better than Williams, but historically great. This isn't some Bird vs. Magic argument where the guys are really close, this is like arguing that Artis Gilmore was better than Kareem.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 18:14 (sixteen years ago)

did artis gilmore win 80% of his head to head matchups against kareem?

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 19:39 (sixteen years ago)

D'ya mean "win" as in having better stats or "win" as in his team won the game?

Aimless, Friday, 13 March 2009 19:46 (sixteen years ago)

"did artis gilmore win 80% of his head to head matchups against kareem?"

He didn't. You are aware basketball is a team game though? And that Williams and Paul play 78+ games a year against those other teams?

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 19:51 (sixteen years ago)

'every single metric' - as mentioned above ^ williams is a better shooter and more versatile defender. avg's close to the same numbers in assists and is plenty capable of scoring as much as cp3 when needed. the jazz are usually better when he doesn't have to score a ton and he can drive and dish instead.

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 19:54 (sixteen years ago)

Every single metric shows Paul as being not only significantly better than Williams, but historically great.

Apart from a clear advantage for Paul in rebounds and steals, their basic stats are pretty similar imo.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 19:56 (sixteen years ago)

both - referring to both head to head matchups and team wins. sure, there is 78 other games but a head-to-head matchup is a pretty reasonable way to match 2 skill levels up, esp when they're playing the same position and guarding each other

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 19:56 (sixteen years ago)

Also, pretty good chance these guys will face off in the playoffs this year, which should be a lot of fun to watch.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 19:59 (sixteen years ago)

The whole "it's a team game" angle would make more sense if Utah was clearly better than New Orleans, but they're not. They have almost the exact same record.

On the other hand, when they've faced off against each other, both seem to perform pretty well.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 20:00 (sixteen years ago)

voting d-will just to be that guy. i also think that the 'this is not close' argument is retarded

― 6335, Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

unless yr willing to argue that deron is perennial mpv candidate good then yeah this is not close

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:05 (sixteen years ago)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2779
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2798

for their careers the only statistical category deron holds an advantage in is 3p%

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:11 (sixteen years ago)

I don't think anyone is saying that Deron is actually better than Paul.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 20:15 (sixteen years ago)

what those stats are saying is paul is definitively better than deron

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:16 (sixteen years ago)

CHRIS PAUL IS WAY MORE CUTER

H3LP, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:21 (sixteen years ago)

The whole "it's a team game" angle would make more sense if Utah was clearly better than New Orleans, but they're not. They have almost the exact same record.

― Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, March 13, 2009 4:00 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is a ridiculous assertion on so many levels but most obv because the jazz are so much more talented than the hornets if u disregard the two players in question here - its the huge disparity in value between paul and deron that causes the hornets to be as good as the jazz - tho both teams hav had a ridiculous amount of injuries this year and the jazz are prob better when healthy

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:22 (sixteen years ago)

what i'm saying is that if we picked teams in the schoolyard, i would pick deron and you would pick paul and we would beat you 80% of the time ^_^

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:25 (sixteen years ago)

unless yr willing to argue that deron is perennial mpv candidate good then yeah this is not close

― ice cr?m, Friday, March 13, 2009 8:05 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

LOL media voters

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:27 (sixteen years ago)

i would just love to see paul destroy deron in a 7 game series then everyone can stfu cause u know their head to heads so far SMALL SAMPLE SIZE

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:28 (sixteen years ago)

unless yr willing to argue that deron is perennial mpv candidate good then yeah this is not close

― ice cr?m, Friday, March 13, 2009 8:05 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

LOL media voters

― 6335, Friday, March 13, 2009 4:27 PM (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this isnt abt the media who completely underrate paul this is abt can u w/a straight face say deron williams should be discussed in the same breath as lebron wade howard et al

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:29 (sixteen years ago)

the media underrates paul? LOL

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:31 (sixteen years ago)

tbh i don't think paul is in the same category as lebron wade kobe etc either. right outside it, yeah

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:33 (sixteen years ago)

i do hope for a NO/UTA matchup in the playoffs and hopefully a rodman-malone style throwdown in a metal cage afterwards

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:34 (sixteen years ago)

I disagree that it is ridiculous on "so many levels," but possibly on the single level of being wrong.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 20:37 (sixteen years ago)

heh

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:38 (sixteen years ago)

i hav some other levels id like to tell u abt

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:38 (sixteen years ago)

the media underrates paul? LOL

― 6335, Friday, March 13, 2009 4:31 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he had a better season than kobe last year didnt get the mvp - no ones talking abt him for it this year - they like him but dont seem to appreciate exactly what theyre seeing which is someone playing his position as well as its ever been played - of course u think deron is better so the media prob looks like fawning fools from yr pov

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:42 (sixteen years ago)

I don't think 6335 thinks Deron is better.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 20:44 (sixteen years ago)

thsi ice cr?m has a point there.kobe bryant raped people and he received mvp last year. even the media likes him now.did they forget about the rape?

H3LP, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:44 (sixteen years ago)

im sayin

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:46 (sixteen years ago)

"Apart from a clear advantage for Paul in rebounds and steals, their basic stats are pretty similar imo."

Pretty similar except Paul is better at everything that ya know actually matters. A better shooting %, better foul shooting %, better rebounding %, more rebounds, more assists (albeit just slightly here), less turnovers, more steals, etc.

PER, Win Shares and WARP basically show Paul being one of the most valuable players in the league and Williams while still being great being outside of that class. Seriously the idea that these guys are separated by a narrow thread is a joke.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:50 (sixteen years ago)

"no ones talking abt him for it this year"

To be fair that's because 1) his team is underachieving compared to last year and 2) Lebron is having an insane year and Wade isn't far behind him.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:55 (sixteen years ago)

Do you guys agree that they're both probably hall of famers, barring major injury?

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 20:59 (sixteen years ago)

Wade is cute also is he not gay? That is why he is behind?

H3LP, Friday, 13 March 2009 20:59 (sixteen years ago)

its true deron is dumpy and gay so of course he is overrated

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:02 (sixteen years ago)

In one game, not much. In 82 games, that's an extra 164 per season, an extra 1500 in a career, etc.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 21:47 (sixteen years ago)

Two extra rebounds, four extra points, 1 less turnover, in fewer opportunities, yeah you are right, no big deal.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:48 (sixteen years ago)

can someone go ahead adjust those stats for pace plz

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:48 (sixteen years ago)

individual floor % of .654

Unfamiliar with this terminology

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 21:49 (sixteen years ago)

it's kind of a semantic point anyway but 3 extra assists and 3 extra rbds aren't analogous for the pg position

wow heaven is cool (J0rdan S.), Friday, 13 March 2009 21:50 (sixteen years ago)

Guessing it's something like True Shooting %.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:51 (sixteen years ago)

Floor %= Scoring possessions/Possession

dude explains all his stats in the article

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:52 (sixteen years ago)

yeah and those extra 3 assists a game translate into = 240 assists/at least 480 pts

how do those 2 extra rebounds translate into a turnover and/or 4 pts?? they could just as easily translate into a rebound for david west instead or a missed fast break opportunity

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:52 (sixteen years ago)

err roughly 240ishhh

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:53 (sixteen years ago)

all of this talk of one extra whatever is meaningless if we dont adjust for pace

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:53 (sixteen years ago)

should be noted in our comparison of stocktons best seasons to pauls that stockton has a lot more to choose from - paul is just out of the gate on fire FIRE

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:53 (sixteen years ago)

"how do those 2 extra rebounds translate into a turnover and/or 4 pts?? they could just as easily translate into a rebound for david west instead or a missed fast break opportunity"

Uh Paul average 4+ points and 1- turnover a game plus two more rebounds over Stockton's best seasons.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:55 (sixteen years ago)

"all of this talk of one extra whatever is meaningless if we dont adjust for pace"

This is true. Damn you Basketball-Reference.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:56 (sixteen years ago)

oh sorry alex, i misunderstood what you were saying

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 21:58 (sixteen years ago)

but while we're quibbling, it's actually .5 difference in to's between paul's season this year and stockton's best. if you're using the same season that paul is avging 5 rbs at least. which still gives stockton a better asst/to ratio, way more assists, more steals, better fg%, better 3 pt% blah blah blah. pace sschmace

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 22:15 (sixteen years ago)

Doubt if the block quote function will work, but this is probably the best pace adjusted stats we are going to find.

Paul Stockton
Season 2007-08 1987-88
Age 22 25
Tm NOH UTA
Lg NBA NBA
G 80 82
MP 3006 2842
PER 28.3 23.2
TS% 0.576 0.645
eFG% 0.524 0.589
ORB% 2.4 2.1
DRB% 10.3 6.6
TRB% 6.2 4.5
AST% 52.2 54.8
STL% 3.9 4
BLK% 0.1 0.3
TOV% 12.1 21.9
USG% 25.7 17.2
ORtg 125 125
DRtg 103 102
OWS 12.8 9.3
DWS 4.5 5
WS 17.3 14.4

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 22:30 (sixteen years ago)

I like how the Paul vs. Williams has now taken a back burner to the larger question of how great is Chris Paul? Just great? Or the 2nd best PG ever great?

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 22:35 (sixteen years ago)

if he can keep this pace up for 7-8 more years then i'll gladly give him top 3 status

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 22:47 (sixteen years ago)

actually top 3 is way too generous - top 5-6

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 22:49 (sixteen years ago)

I'm curious who would be ahead of him in your eyes. I guess I should made the caveat that I was talking about the post-Magic/Bird-era. I don't doubt that Robertson, Cousy, et all, were amazing, but it's kind of hard to analyse their games in the context of today's game.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 22:56 (sixteen years ago)

btw, this dude has paul and williams at 5 & 6 in this years mvp race. guess i'm not the only crazy one

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/rob_peterson/03/13/wade_climbs.mvp.20090313/index.html

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 22:59 (sixteen years ago)

yeah i never saw oscar robertson play but its still tough to argue against a dude who avged a triple double for a season, in any era. magic/bird era -->
1. magic
2. stockton
3. isiah
4. kidd
5. nash

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:04 (sixteen years ago)

Some stray thoughts on that triple/double season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1423

Your list is crazy btw.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:06 (sixteen years ago)

if we're eliminating cousy/oscar, i'd give paul #4 spot if he keeps it up for 7-8 more. even though i think he's going to start wearing down in more like 5-6

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:06 (sixteen years ago)

interesting article, thx. alright, what would yer list be

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:08 (sixteen years ago)

My list is mostly the same (I mean who am I going to pick? Rod Strickland?) I just can't imagine taking any of 2-6 over ten years of Chris Paul playing at his current level (this year, last year plus 7-8 more.)

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:11 (sixteen years ago)

Actually I guess Payton might have an argument against Kidd or maybe Nash.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:14 (sixteen years ago)

Payton didn't distribute as much as I'd like, but he was amazing on defense.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Friday, 13 March 2009 23:15 (sixteen years ago)

stockton already had 10 seasons about that good and then another 6-7 that weren't too shabby. when stockton was FORTY years old, he avged 13 pts, 8 asts, 2 stls, .517 fg%. yeeeesh.

but good point, i' slide him by isiah if he can keep it up. big if, tho

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:18 (sixteen years ago)

i should point out that when i said 5-6 originally, i meant including cousy/big O. not that crazy

6335, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:19 (sixteen years ago)

Nash also kind of gets dicked cuz he didn't really get regular playing time until he was 26 (nearly 27.)

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:20 (sixteen years ago)

nash like stockton and magic found himself in exactly the perfect system - the same cannot be said for paul - hope he does tho

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:31 (sixteen years ago)

Nash found himself in the perfect system twice though which indicates that it had as much to do with him as it did with the system/players around him.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:38 (sixteen years ago)

I agree that Paul's supporting cast is significantly worse than everyone else on these lists though.

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:39 (sixteen years ago)

nash in dallas was only a v good point in phoenix he was all time level brilliant - so im talking abt phoenix just to clarify

ice cr?m, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:42 (sixteen years ago)

Hah Dallas was a near perfect system then. He was still probably the best point good in the league when he was there (unless you prefer Kidd, I guess.)

Alex in SF, Friday, 13 March 2009 23:48 (sixteen years ago)

look at the splits between dallas and phoenix http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=592 its like he turned from deron into paul

ice cr?m, Saturday, 14 March 2009 00:08 (sixteen years ago)

Hah Dallas was a near perfect system then. He was still probably the best point good in the league when he was there (unless you prefer Kidd, I guess.)

Or if you like your PG to play defense.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Saturday, 14 March 2009 01:34 (sixteen years ago)

And be a horrendous outside shooter.

Alex in SF, Saturday, 14 March 2009 02:33 (sixteen years ago)

jeez i'm with 6335 on most of this, paul has a couple good years and a phantom ilh mvp award (we'll dub it the 'unkobe' lol) and he's better than stockton??? lolstats

peace pipe to youur lips (tremendoid), Saturday, 14 March 2009 02:46 (sixteen years ago)

Woah I didn't say he was actually better than Stockton (or Isiah or Kidd or Nash). This argument is entirely predicted on Paul repeating his successes for another decade (and ya know actually experiencing some post-season success as well) which is far from a given.

Alex in SF, Saturday, 14 March 2009 03:36 (sixteen years ago)

Had no idea that Malone average 4 turnovers a game one year. That's almost embarrassing.

Alex in SF, Saturday, 14 March 2009 03:39 (sixteen years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Tuesday, 17 March 2009 00:01 (sixteen years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Wednesday, 18 March 2009 00:01 (sixteen years ago)

scientific evidence

Marrakesh and Ashley Olsen (m bison), Wednesday, 18 March 2009 01:31 (sixteen years ago)

two weeks pass...

deron - 21 pts, 11 assts, 3 stls, 0 turnovers
paul - 19 pts, 12 assts, 1 stl, 4 turnovers

jazz 108
hornets 94

6335, Monday, 6 April 2009 02:33 (sixteen years ago)

The Hornets lost to the Warriors when they didn't have Monta Ellis, Jackson, Biedrins, or Maggette.

Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet (polyphonic), Monday, 6 April 2009 05:36 (sixteen years ago)

the jazz lost to the t-wolves @ home when they didn't have al jefferson

6335, Monday, 6 April 2009 14:26 (sixteen years ago)

I didn't realise that Deron has his initials tattoed on him?

Gravel Puzzleworth, Monday, 6 April 2009 22:11 (sixteen years ago)

Could be he's a big Desperate Housewives fan.

Alex in SF, Monday, 6 April 2009 23:31 (sixteen years ago)


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