"just take a knee"

ok, i just have to talk about something that's been bothering me. between the hines ward play from thursday and the leodis mckelvin play from monday, it seems that football media ppl (and maybe even regular fans) think it's totally reasonable to expect guys in traffic, surrounded by defenders, having just been hit really hard (in the case of mckelvin) to have the presence of mind to know that taking a knee is strategically the best play.

i'm not convinced. if you've like seen hard knocks (from what i hear) or read anything ever written about an nfl training camp, you know that if there is even a perception that a guy is not giving 100%, fighting for every yard, trying to prove that he is the toughest dude out there, then there's a real good chance he'll get cut. this goes back through college, high school, etc. add to this that making the right decision in general at game speed is a unique skill that most people don't possess, and i'm thinking there's no way ward or mckelvin should be criticized for doing what they have been trained for their entire lives to do.

(i should clarify that in mckelvin's case he obviously should not have run the ball out of the end zone, but after he got stuck by merriweather i actually heard guys on tv saying that he should have just gone down--what??? on what nfl team would that typically be acceptable--to crumble just because you got hit hard when you're still standing?)

anyway i'm going on way too long but this particular line of thinking needs to end, now.

The most important thing is to understand the game situation. Sometimes it's important to take a knee because you're trying to save time on the clock, or because running the ball means you may fumble the ball and lose the game, whereas gaining yards gains you nothing (the McKelvin situation).

The Ward situation was sort of similar. He had the ball in a position where a field goal would've been a chip shot. But Hines Ward never fumbles, so the fact that he did this one time is not a huge deal.

Also, speaking as a Chargers fan who watched a playoff win slip away when a player didn't take a knee ...

:(

yeah i'm not arguing that taking a knee is often the correct strategic decision, more that to expect a player to know that, in the middle of combat, going 100% against his training, is just wrong.

and imo in the steelers game planning for a field goal was actually not the right decision--it was a tie game, you have to score. and you know what a blocked field goal frequently results in? a td for the other guys.

more that to expect a player to know that, in the middle of combat, going 100% against his training, is just wrong.

next thing you know you'll have qb's sliding to avoiding contact

or guys running out of bounds just to stop the clock

in the case of ward, if i was drilling that situation in practice i would tell him to hit the deck for a chip shot field goal. there is risk in either approach but i feel like the percentages would favor going for the 3 points and running down the clock.

mckelvin claims he was worried he took the ball back into the end zone. he maybe could've wrapped up tighter once he did run it, but new england executed a great play on him with one guy holding him up while the other guy stripped the ball.

lol xp do u understand the difference between having a clear path out of bounds or being trained as a qb vs. an rb/wr/kick returner? i'm basically talking about situations where guys have already hit you or those guys are imminent.

The bottom line is that players need to understand the situation of the game. Ward at least was trying to score when a score was necessary, but there are plenty of situations where the play that would help the team win the game is not to get more yards, and players who don't understand that are incredibly frustrating to watch.

'm basically talking about situations where guys have already hit you or those guys are imminent.

You can make these decisions before the snap!

but if they're catching the kickoff or punt in the end zone they should be aware when it's better to take a knee, because otherwise you'd have to be able to run it out more than 20 yards before running into defenders.. and should be pretty well coached on whether or not they are in the end zone when making that catch. i think that's the problem, he should've known he was in the end zone. if he obviously caught it at the 1 yard line, then i wouldn't expect him to take a knee either.

what i don't know is - how many teams do what the pats did, because from postgame interviews apparently they practiced exactly what happened there, stopping the return guy before he was down & someone else going after the football

i can't fault hines ward for anything really.

yes as i stated running it out of the end zone is a separate issue and coachable, but some tv dudes apparently wanted him to turtle on the initial hit by brandon merriweather.

these were two very different situations, i agree with daria that he should've known to take a knee in the end zone instead of running out with the ball. once he did it though, i can't fault him for trying to get more yards and break the tackle, but the initial decision to run out is questionable.

also let's not compare this to qbs because i think that is a pussy-ass move that is often done way too early in the course of a run (one of cutler's slides, he could've made it to the first down easily and just bailed on it so he didn't have to run harder to avoid contact -- screw that IMO) and i was like FUCK YEAH trent edwards and FUCK YEAH jamarcus russell when both of them chose not to do that this weekend. so i'm thinking the audience who wouldn't fault a receiver or rb for going at it wouldn't fault a qb who chose not to slide either.

i agree qb's slide too much.

the same ppl who would criticize a "diva" wr for stepping out of bounds and not running into a safety probably get all freaked out when their favorite qb goes hard for a first down because "he might get hurt." double standards all over the place imo.

yeah i think that you are correct! i basically think everyone should go for it all the time hard core 100% even if that means the ball is fumbled 87% of plays because that would be hilarious, don't you think? also brett favre would probably die if he did this.

i think my favorite moments where the qb doesn't give a fuck and just plows forward are the moments taking place in games where the qb has sucked the entire time up to that point and he gets up and is all like "yeah i just pwned that first down!" and then tosses an interception. i think rex grossman did this 15 times.

ah. far as taking a knee on the initial hit by meriweather.. see i wonder if he could have, at that point. whoever on the pats explained it said they'd practiced holding the guy up after the hit so someone else could try & strip the ball, so maybe meriweather didn't try to knock him over. i expect it'd be risky if it weren't in this kind of situation where it's either get the ball back on the kickoff or probably lose the game

i do think qb's should know their athletic limits and not be intentionally stupid but so many of them are big, solid, athletic dudes these days. same with a lot of kickers.

it's comical to see big 6'5" dudes sliding down as a skinny 5'10" CB scampers their way

should injury-prone QBs scramble for the end zone for a meaningless score and break a rib?

yeah, daria, i agree with you that the guy was being held up, so i think the argument is that instead of fighting to break free of the tackle he should've been holding the ball tighter and trying to go down? I'm actually not 100% sure, this was an espn argument not made by schefter so it could've been literally anything, he was supposed to purchase some magic beans, or kill tom brady, or whatever.

xpost yes, i like it when jeff garcia or testaverde get that magical phone call each season

i feel like those two dudes have a running bet going each offseason w/r/t this

xp yeah it was a jaws/gruden argument and pretty sure i heard it repeated elsewhere too. i know all these guys are frequently dumb but something about telling players NOT to play as hard as humanly possibly (when u would just as quickly cut their ass in training camp) is particularly galling to me.

1:40 here, slow motion
meriweather hits the guy pretty good but it does look like he's just trying to stop momentum & not tackle the dude

wait though, surely there is room for smart plays as well as hard plays? westbrook was rightly praised for stopping on the line that time. strategically, once he was out of the end zone (for whatever reason), mckelvin should have gone down before any contact was made. no amount of yards is worth any % risk of strip/fumble in that situation. although the fault almost certainly lies with the buffalo coaches, not the player himself.

i guess it has to be an interesting calculation on the pats' side where.. the bills didn't know if it'd be an onside kick or not (pats still had 3 time outs and it wasn't quite the 2 minute warning, so they didn't absolutely have to do that) so they put the 'hands' team instead of the regular return team out there, which meant the blocking wasn't as good as usual..

Westbrook is obviously a pussy, and if I had my way he would've been cut from the team for that.

agree w/r/t where the fault lies--nfl coaching is certainly not evolved to the point where the dick jaurons of the world are going to be able to prep players for these situations.

the westbrook play was praised (and rightly so) not because he went down for fear of fumbling, but because of the clock issues and because he sublimated his own desire to score.

there are only a few nfl situations i can think of where a player is "supposed" to avoid contact: qb's sliding, ppl going out of bounds to stop the clock, ppl trying not to run into a punter or punt returner--all v. specific. until we definitively add more to the list criticizing players is totally off-base.

and yeah daria mckelvin should have been told to proceed VERY cautiously for that exact reason, i assume he was not.

looking at that clip, he still gets to the 25 before a red shirt even looks like making contact. also, looking at it now, i have absolutely no sympathy for his excuse that he thought he might have taken it into the end zone. yeah he was outside the end zone to begin with, but he was stationary inside when he caught the ball.

if that situation had been perfectly managed, a coach would've grabbed him on his way onto the field and told him that if gostowski's kick reaches the end zone, which seems pretty usual for that guy, that he should on no account run it out. i am assuming that that didn't happen, otherwise mckelvin deserves a giant white phallus on his lawn.

yeah i don't nec. believe he didn't know where he was when catching the ball fwiw, tho it was def. close

I guess I disregard any argument based on the "you don't understand what it's like on the field in the heat of battle". They're getting paid millions to be superhuman; they can have the awareness to go into a play with a simple a few if=then scenarios based on how the play unfolds.

dude read anything about an nfl training camp; cut/keep decisions are made on VERY small sample sizes and grit/desire/hard play/whatever is basically conditioned into these guys. it's really instinctual stuff.

oh man, can i just interrupt the conversation here to say: football

lol anytime you want

So overcome that instinctual urge to score and make the intelligent play and you'll be hailed as an intelligent player! Don't and you'll be called dumb! Seems fair to me.
Stokely, running back that errant ball for the game winning touchdown this week, had the presence of mind to run parallel to the goal line for a few seconds until the defenders got there to run down the clock. That's a heads up play.
Ward kept scrambling in the open field with defenders fast approaching because he wanted to score. It was not heads up play. I certainly understand how that could happen and I get your point about not second guessing world-class athletes in any case, but the guys who make these bad plays are the first to admit they fucked up.

and yes: football

I don't feel like the dudes at the top of the depth chart are necessarily worried about getting cut, though. You think that it's so ingrained that it never goes away? I can't tell you how many times I've watched LDT run out of bounds when there are four more yards available if he wanted them.

Ward kept scrambling in the open field with defenders fast approaching because he wanted to score. It was not heads up play.

But his team needed to score!

% chance of success: going for a TD through a few defenders vs 1pt range field goal? also, field goal has the clock advantage.

He really should've crunched the numbers there.

He should've before the snap, yes.
I'm not saying it's unforgiveable but there's an objective reality of what the most beneficial way to play is and if the player doesn't meet it, they know as they walk to the sidelines that they dropped the ball.

Stokely, running back that errant ball for the game winning touchdown this week, had the presence of mind to run parallel to the goal line for a few seconds until the defenders got there to run down the clock. That's a heads up play.

lol yeah it was a heads-up play, but it was also something the team practiced!

imo you can't really overestimate the extent to which these guys are DRILLED to do certain things. coaches don't want players "thinking" or evaluating if/thens on the field. indecisiveness can cause a negative play really easily. good coaching should eliminate the need to make many decisions.

yeah more successful guys aren't worried about getting cut, but camps and practices are still brutal and you'll still be called out if it's perceived that you're not doing your fullest.

ldt is definitely a guy who doesn't take the extra hit; because of his success that's a right he had earned until this season. but you'll notice a certain reputation has followed him over the years.

i mean if you think hines should be out there, with the ball, in a tie game, thinking "gee should i try to score, there's a lot of guys around me, the chances of a field goal from here are really good" etc. etc. i think you're crazy but that's just my opinion. it isn't comparable to brandon stokely with about 5 yards between him and his closest pursuer remembering a specific situation that the team really did cover in practice.

I think prior to the snap Hines should think "if this route works and I catch at the 15, I should cover up the ball and let them kick the field goal" as he leaves the huddle, yes.

u crazy my dude :)

ok

forks otm

and one more time i am not arguing what the correct strategy is or should be--just sayin players are not coached to do what you are asking for

I don't buy the argument "they're constantly drilled to push for every yard possible, of course this is gonna happen" cause they are also constantly drilled to NOT LOSE THE FOOTBALL. this is not an insignificant part of their training!

likewise, turnovers can put a young guy's career in jeopardy just as much as not picking up enough yards after contact.

forks mad heady

I will agree with you wholeheartedly that it is ludicrous to act as if any couchbound schmuck is entitled to second guess the snap judgment of a skilled athlete.

i still don't think this play was nearly as bizarre as the fake punt fail the bears' long snapper tried to pull on GB

oh come on, w/ that attitude we're not allowed to criticize basically anyone. a skilled athlete is making millions of dollars because of the superiority of his snap judgments in these very situations. and he's making that money because millions of couchbound schmucks enjoy watching his performance and critiquing it.

xp

cause they are also constantly drilled to NOT LOSE THE FOOTBALL.

yes--this is drilled into them by giving them a football and kicking their ass while they try to hold on to it.

i still don't think this play was nearly as bizarre as the fake punt fail the bears' long snapper tried to pull on GB

hahaha see what happens when u let players make decisions?

now that's what i call a "snap" judgment

ba-DUM!

That fake punt would have been brilliant if the 12th man running off the field was EVEN CLOSE TO STILL BEING ON THE FIELD (he was not).

no it wouldn't have because they would have had a 4th and 6 instead of a 4th and 11

^^ that's what makes it awesome

has it been clarified whether that particular play was approved by the higher ups on some level or whether it was completely the snapper's spur of the moment idea?

i never saw an official explanation but i have to think it was snapper's call--what the bears get for employing a football player from DUKE tbh

they showed the snapper suddenly start pointing furiously through his legs at the guy he snapped to. the guy who got the ball never even saw it.

"oh come on, w/ that attitude we're not allowed to criticize basically anyone."
hardly. Gross incompetence or missing a play is one thing; a mental error is another.

yeah i think we can all agree that leodis needed to know where he was (in the end zone) and not run that ball out with the hands team on the field.

man just thinking abt it makes me wish someone would draw a dick on his lawn.

"oh come on, w/ that attitude we're not allowed to criticize basically anyone."

hardly. Gross incompetence or missing a play is one thing; a mental error is another.

basically any interception is a mental error! any qb is expected to make these same sorts of decisions on a split second basis. we tend not to analyze the rest of a fb team as 'decision makers' in the same sense...but hey, they are. as such I see nothing wrong w/ criticizing them for making a poor decision. that said, I don't think this week's examples that we're using are great, outside of the long snapper who clearly did make a decision and made the wrong one.

ward's mistake wasn't that he didn't take a knee - it was the right thing to do in the situation. his mistake was that he fumbled.

it was the right thing to do in the situation.

(going for the td)

this thread is mostly infuriating after being kind of jokey fun yesterday. as pointed out upthread, dude made it way past the 25 before the pats even showed up to hit him. i agree that it's possible that dick jauron, knowing the blocking situation, should've maybe told him to just stay in the end zone but acting like he should just know this and that his decision, in the circumstance of not seeing a patriot ANYWHERE NEAR HIM, that he shouldn't just run the ball out and try to get his team in a better position is just asinine. his mistake was that he fumbled the ball. period! he's also got nothing to do with why the pats were able to get TWO touchdowns to takeover the game completely within 70 seconds, i mean unless i missed a second kick return fumble somehow in there. i disagree with this concept that we should be discouraging players from playing hard and making more daring judgment calls because oh noes something bad might happen.

also let's not front: westbrook was praised for that because he apparently is the only person in the entire eagles organization that is aware that there is a game clock.

he's also got nothing to do with why the pats were able to get TWO touchdowns to takeover the game completely within 70 seconds

Fine, he fumbled, go ahead and criticize him but the defense allowing two such rapid tds are the guys who should be feeling the heat, here.

i disagree with this concept that we should be discouraging players from playing hard and making more daring judgment calls because oh noes something bad might happen.

By this logic, instead of having the quarterback take a knee to run out the clock, you'd rather the offense run a play and get some meaningless extra yards instead of worrying about oh noes something bad might happen.

The defense certainly deserves some of the blame, but they never should've been in that situation.

TDs tend to be rapid when you turn over the ball on your own 30. i'd say an easily avoided fumble is a significantly worse mistake than letting a high powered offense score from 30 yards.

didn't mckelvin fumble the ball on the previous kickoff as well? this may have been mentioned upthread but damn it's long.

Also, the second touchdown happened because Ben Watson made a very, very good catch.

the patriots were moving the ball all night--just ran into some bad luck w/stalled drives. the 2 tds were kind of the game evening out as far as the bills' defense is concerned.

defeat foretold

New England - 11:33
NE kicked off, L. McKelvin returned kickoff for 19 yards. L. McKelvin fumbled. N. Harris recovered fumble and returned for 16 yards

with the bills though defeat seems preordained

Polyphonic OTM. D played that second TD as well as you could ask, just got beat on a great throw and catch that doesn't happen without a QB/TE who have logged thousands of reps together.

the patriots were moving the ball all night--just ran into some bad luck w/stalled drives

― call all destroyer

not so sure about this. there's a difference between moving the ball and scoring aka the difference between bending and breaking.

so will it mark me out as a super-casual football fan if I say the attitude described in the opening post of this thread seems to miss the point of football entirely

lol noob

t(;_;t)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I

not so sure about this. there's a difference between moving the ball and scoring aka the difference between bending and breaking.

ehhh i think that "bending" vs. "breaking" is probably mostly attributable to "luck"

lol dan what did i do to confuse you?

I'm not confused! I'm just saying that reading the attitude you're describing and having it come from analysts etc made me think "I know these ppl have seen football games before but have they ever actually ENJOYED watching one?????"

ha, i will go on record as saying PROBABLY

overall this argument bothers me because logically it has some sorta patronizing implications. if these players can't be held responsible for these sort of decisions, then they aren't capable of making them. cause if they are capable of making them, they certainly should be.

this may not be the right thread to expand upon this on, but i didn't think luck was a huge factor in the patriots' filed drives. buffalo played good d for the most part, especially stuffing any screen plays, and new england made some poor play calls on third and fourth downs. brady seemed reluctant early on to go forward onto his knee and so he hardly ever looked longer than 10 yards, which is why pundits have been talking about his record number of completions and high completion %, although no one is talking about his subpar ypa. as i watched it it looked a lot like the cassel playbook from last year.

failed drives

overall this argument bothers me because logically it has some sorta patronizing implications. if these players can't be held responsible for these sort of decisions, then they aren't capable of making them. cause if they are capable of making them, they certainly should be.

I think this argument is better framed via the stereotypical view of men's basketball vs women's basketball; is it more fun to see a spectacularly failed dunk or textbook lay-up after textbook lay-up? In games where I don't particularly care who wins, I am always going to root for spectacular plays over conservative ones, even if they fail.

I know these ppl have seen football games before but have they ever actually ENJOYED watching one?????"

Browns over the Giants last year. Other than that, no.

yeah but team fans/coaches/organizations aren't satisfied w/ losing, even if they lost awesomely

+ with basketball, there are way more games, way more opportunities to score, so an individual bit of flashiness isn't as risky. it's possible that a single failed dunk could end your season, it's significantly more posible that a fumble could.

xp

but the big problem here is we're treating fumbles as strategic mistakes, when they're really physical mistakes

ok, gotcha re: attitudes. i basically agree.

iatee, it's only patronizing if you're not working under the assumption that what players do on the field is some seriously difficult, amazing, 99th-percentile shit.

haha I would like to meet the professional player who is strategically planning when and where his next fumble would be

we except everyone on the field to be in the 99th percentile, but not only physically but also mentally and strategically. they're not a buncha freelancers who are there simply for their physical abilities, personal stats and to help the coach and qb win their game. they're team members who, above all, should be thinking about ending the 4th quarter w/ more points than the other team. everything they do should be guided by that. that's the reason they're there, that's the reason they're getting paid crazy money, and that's why they're not above criticism when they do something contrary to that. being a professoinal athlete is more than just being capable of doing superhuman physical feats.

true, it is also about endorsement deals

it's also about bitches and money

beaten to the draw :(

(iatee you do have a point but it is one that is completely irrelevant to what I am looking for as far as watching a game is concerned; no one is going to be filling highlight reels with displays of dazzling conservative strategy!)

and look at this, they ran it into the line three times to kill the clock! wade phillips for coach of the year!

test

oh cool

anyway did anyone mention that, in the huddle b4 the play, jon runyan had to convince westbrook to take a knee if he found himself breaking a big run? it would never have occurred to him ordinarily iow

actually no but i remember hearing that at the time now that you say it.