An open letter to ILX & mods re: an alternative to the current system

most of my sb's are of the "you need a break from the site" variety

To make it really short:

Suggest ban = users are two year olds
Flag/report post = users are adults

I had a bunch of stuff to say, but it's probably better that I stay out of these convos. Lemme just say that I'm glad I'm not a mod here, many of you are... needlessly difficult.

this all seems a bit complex

maybe we shd just say why we sb people, as and when, but oh no, that would be zing culture

does anyone read anymore

cad: k8 has stated several times over that she a) is a programmer (tho rusty) and b) would at least like to look at the source code. as would i, but mostly to see if i can even parse it.

as for how this would be substantially different than SBs: i've made what i thought was a pretty clear case, a few times. flagging posts attracts mod attn ~to that post~ and they can, as they do now, decide what to do about the infraction. modding is then directed towards something controversial ~as it happens~ vs someone suddenly getting disappeared because their posting history caught up with them. also, in a "rhetorical" sense, flagging a post is just saying "i don't think this is appropriate" vs saying "i think this person should no longer post on ilx"

xp thanking u, kate

most of my sb's are of the "you need a break from the site" variety

Actually my (very very few) have also been this. General "pull back, you need a break" pings, based on multiple posts of wtfery.

again, taking you at face value that you don;t know how you could ever have been banned under sb, your argument is predicated on being suggest banned for nothing that you can think of except that at least 51 ilxors are total shitheads.

No.

My argument is "if you do not KNOW why you have been SB'd, your imagination can run riot and you can think that it might be for A or for B or for CDEFGHIJKLMNOP"

If you want to read that as saying "OMG, she just accused everyone who SB'd her of being LMNOP!" that is an incorrect conclusion to draw from the statement that I made.

what about those of us who sb as a gesture of love

sure it's a dysfunctional way of expressing ourselves but who are you to judge us

in seriousness tho K8 people do tell you when they're exasperated with you? like how you could not know exactly which posting behaviors have resulted in sb's is a total mystery, since you are smart and can figure that out??

if you have ever been banned can you be considered an adult

cad: k8 has stated several times over that she a) is a programmer (tho rusty) and b) would at least like to look at the source code. as would i, but mostly to see if i can even parse it.

i know! why are you explaining this to me?

sometimes we just like to explain things to call all destroyer

Suggest ban = users are two year olds
Flag/report post = users are adults

― Karen D. Tregaskin

code in an age check, keep sb

can I just say that while I am often frustrated with and irritated by KDT/MB, the original post in this thread was reasonable, and it was carefully timed not to fall in the middle of any other metashit -- a good attempt to talk borad mechanics. And she still got four SBs for it. Doesn't that make it obvious that she's getting SB'd for existing, not for anything specific she did wrong in that post?

That's the kind of bullshit that I think a flag post system instead of a SB system might help eliminate.

To make it really short:

Suggest ban = users are two year olds
Flag/report post = users are adults

to make it shorter = this sort of garbage is why people sb you

probably already been said in this very long thread, but i would guess that starting this thread will have earned you 5< SBs, because it's annoying and cluster-fucky

xp

ha

as a child I posted pictures of men stretching their anuses out, as all children did, in the 90s

flagging posts attracts mod attn ~to that post~ and they can, as they do now, decide what to do about the infraction. modding is then directed towards something controversial ~as it happens~ vs someone suddenly getting disappeared because their posting history caught up with them. also, in a "rhetorical" sense, flagging a post is just saying "i don't think this is appropriate" vs saying "i think this person should no longer post on ilx"

ok

why not both?

also- do sb's draw mod attention to a post or not?

"only I am an adult! people who disagree with me are children! it is a great mystery why I get SB'd!" like seriously? I'm one of the few posters whose "fuck you, the patriarchy" radar is as sensitive as yours, but that post warrants a huge FUCK YOU from me

and again: flagging, like SBs, would have a threshold (i said 20, arbitrarily). not a threshold for ~action~, but for ~notification~. like if somebody went and flagged an entire thread for lolz, it wouldn't necessarily be brought to the attn of mods. if someone made an egregious post in a highly trafficked thread, then it seems likely that lots of like-minded ilxors would say "hey that's not cool." i generally do NOT SB because i like having some of our more controversial posters, and i don't want them to get 86d because i registered my disapproval of ONE POST. however, it would be nice to be able to call attn to it (i'm more inclined to post a response, but still) and maybe have that lead to a yellow card or temp ban or w/e.

cuz if i'm not mistaken (mods?), temp bans are usually the result of attn drawn to specific posts, whereas the review process for SBs is only twigged when they hit the threshold

why are you guys making this about kate, it's a little weird

sorry, cad! i misread this:

this happened?

― questeon the answers (call all destroyer), Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:32 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark

i thought you meant "kate never offered to help" when you actually meant "no one slapped anyone down"

my b

i'm actually replyin to everyone that's called me names itt, gbx, tbf. i even posted to some who didn't

and, just so we didn't miss it:

can I just say that while I am often frustrated with and irritated by KDT/MB, the original post in this thread was reasonable, and it was carefully timed not to fall in the middle of any other metashit -- a good attempt to talk borad mechanics. And she still got four SBs for it. Doesn't that make it obvious that she's getting SB'd for existing, not for anything specific she did wrong in that post?

That's the kind of bullshit that I think a flag post system instead of a SB system might help eliminate.

― Unfrozen Caveman Board-Lawyer (WmC), Sunday, November 21, 2010 6:00 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

why are you guys making this about kate, it's a little weird

I was actually going to use Bimble as my SB example fwiw.

to make it shorter = this sort of garbage is why people sb you

yeah, pretty unhelpful there

cuz if i'm not mistaken (mods?), temp bans are usually the result of attn drawn to specific posts, whereas the review process for SBs is only twigged when they hit the threshold

yeah, that's pretty much right

btw the discourse of banscussion wrings our hands for us and causes undue and unproportionate and unnecessary stress for its participants - kate has a right to express her sentiments and I have no problem with her doing so (indeed I agree with most of them) but this thread is just too long and it draws too much negative energy to ILX - I cannot think of a way to remedy this without restricting freedom of speech except personal restraint though

thread shd have really been a discussion between kate, wmc and jjj maybe? get abbott involved too? idk

agh was hoping this would stay on point and not become an attack thread.

i like having some of our more controversial posters, and i don't want them to get 86d because i registered my disapproval of ONE POST

tryin to think if i've ever sb'd someone for 'just one post'. i may have, it'd want to have been a bad one. i doubt it's the normal sb behaviour of most posters.

thread shd have really been a discussion between kate, wmc and jjj maybe? get abbott involved too? idk

― pro EVOO sucker (acoleuthic)

?????

xps

i've already been called repulsive on this thread, but i'm not sweating it. this doesn't HAVE to be a clusterfuck thread, ppl, we're just all doing our little part to ensure that it is

what you mean there is an email, son

am pulling my horns in, if they've been out. still tryin to get an answer to several points i've put to you on yr flag theory. cool with everyone here, but not to the extent where mt posts are just flat misrepresented as attacking k8.

btw max always <3 but fuck u for suggesting that "fix it or stop insisting that someone else fix it for you" somehow compares to "my country love it or leave it" - you don't get to whine about me calling democrats assholes anymore in light of that dude

I do think it'd speak well of us as a board if we were able to say why we were SBing someone/ flagging a post without playing it for lols. That's not to say I'm certain that we do could do it, just that I think it'd be a good thing.

anyway i'd like to think that i've been level-headed up in here, sorry if i havent. i'm just a little bummed that a genuinely interesting alternative to the suggest ban that still gives the community some input (and, in theory, lifts some of the burden of mod shoulders to keenly police all threads) is being lol'd outta town because oh no another sb thread and because kate happened to be the one that started it

xp ha was wondering when politics would come up

like to begin with, this is a message board, not a country

this is the sort of distinction you'd generally be quick to draw

like i said- a thread where we went in and posted who we've just sb'd and why.

that would sort one of the main bones of contention.

and it would let mods decide if it would stand as legit or not.

evan you've been p clear and reasonable imo now answer my q's you jerk

every sb requires an explanation of more than 30 characters and goes in an accessible log haha

reinstate hi dere ffs

btw max always <3 but fuck u for suggesting that "fix it or stop insisting that someone else fix it for you" somehow compares to "my country love it or leave it" - you don't get to whine about me calling democrats assholes anymore in light of that dude

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, November 21, 2010 7:08 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

k whatever mang

and, before i get aerozung, i'd like to reiterate that i'm not demanding anything from our staff of volunteers. i was just sorta hoping we could have a reasonable discussion NOT about why SBs are so bad and hated, but how flags might actually serve the needs of our lil messageboard, maybe think through whether or not they could work. but since i am not a programmer, i probably shouldn't think aloud about stuff like that until i finish reading that book on ruby i bought a few years ago and never finished

xp sorry dmac, what was the q again? srs

i forget :(

1) Ad hominem attacks
2) Bullying
3) Racism
4) Sexism/Misogyny
5) Homophobia
6) Hate Speech (other)

there are very, very few occasions when these don't get picked up

ppl get suggest-banned not for these things but becuz they rub ppl up the wrong way

i got SB'd and i couldn't give a shit which posts it was 'for' or who SB'd me

the idea that a poster would change his or her posting style based on the advice generated by a complicated drop-down menu system is... unconvincing

I also don't think it's controversial to say that some people might genuinely not get that they're making the board worse at a given moment! I'm sure anyone who posts moderately frequently and doesn't have the wisdom of a nabsico does it sometimes. Like, I enjoy darragh as a poster hugely but I wish he'd not argue with K8 all the time!

can I just say that while I am often frustrated with and irritated by KDT/MB, the original post in this thread was reasonable, and it was carefully timed not to fall in the middle of any other metashit -- a good attempt to talk borad mechanics. And she still got four SBs for it. Doesn't that make it obvious that she's getting SB'd for existing, not for anything specific she did wrong in that post?

Wow, OK, yeah, that really strongly makes the point.

I give up. I seriously give up.

I make a point, as reasonably and eloquently as I know how.

When asked to clarify, I repeat it again, more simply.

When someone misunderstands what I have said, I put it into different, more clear terms.

When that fails, I get a bit cranky (it is midnight here, and I can't sleep because I'm in too much pain) and I make - what I think - is an obvious joke about treating people like two year olds, and the thread goes berserk.

It's become obvious that there truly is no way that I can make myself acceptable to this community. So any attempts at behavioural reform are pointless. You are right. It's not you, it's me.

seems to me that, ~implementation aside~, the qs about flagging are

1) how are they even different?
2) would any supposed differences be beneficial to ilx?
2a) that is, would it mean less "wtf just happened to canks?" or "THREAD OF MISSING GR8080" shoutfests or w/e?
2b) would ppl be less at risk of getting banned because they are irritating?
2c) would mods have to put up with LESS whining?

pretty sure i answered 1 already. and i think the answers to 2a-c are all yes.

every sb requires an explanation of more than 30 characters and goes in an accessible log haha

if every sb required a 10,000 word defense of each clicking sb hand, there would still be huge clusterfuck threads of people whining that it's unjust that somebody they liked got banned

it's exactly like me complaining that communists don't get elected to higher office, except that in this case I'm on the other side

Again, it's the presence of the sb link on every single post that bothers me the most. It's not coupled with anything positive like karma or (hvn forfend) a 'like' button.

― Friday: vuvuzela club meeting (Autumn Almanac), Sunday, 21 November 2010 23:28 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I think it would be fairly straight-forward to modify a stylesheet so that the SB link wasn't shown, and wouldn't require a programmer or very much mod effort.