An open letter to ILX & mods re: an alternative to the current system

except it's more than that, it's a loose cannon that can be turned on anyone, and effectively wielded by a pretty small minority of posters.

This is 100% the actual real problem with SB and I do not disagree with anybody whose concern is this. I just don't believe about 75% of the people who complain on principle when it sounds for all the world like they mean "oh no my friend who was being a total dick to everybody got banned".

Tuomas's SBing proved that even a small minority of SBs on stupid grounds is not acceptable.

― Friday: vuvuzela club meeting (Autumn Almanac), Monday, November 22, 2010 12:38 AM (42 seconds ago) Bookmark

huh? who made you the fuckin' king of deciding which SBs really 'count'

he got 51 votes and was cast off the island

the system works

dude this is precisely what anonymous flagging would do, too! AND it would stop bullies from SBing ppl just for lolz. like the Main Thing you're doing is making a button that says "ATTN MODS!" instead of one that says "HOPE U NEVER POST HERE AGAIN"

But considering SB doesnt automatically ban anyone as it is, isnt it doing that already?

A much simpler solution would be for mods to remove any and all SBs that aren't for obvious egregious posts.

yeah, I mentioned my discomfort with this in my first post upthread. I don't want to be in the position of judging this SB worthy and that one unworthy

huh? who made you the fuckin' king of deciding which SBs really 'count'

he got 51 votes and was cast off the island

the system works

― rip whiney g weingarten 03/11 never forget (history mayne), Monday, November 22, 2010 12:41 AM (36 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

IRL lol over post/un here

no, it isn't. xp to trayce

But considering SB doesnt automatically ban anyone as it is, isnt it doing that already?

― And this one time, on Bandcamp... (Trayce), Monday, 22 November 2010 00:41 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^ this - dunno how many times mods need to state that 51 and out *isn't* automatic.

This is 100% the actual real problem with SB and I do not disagree with anybody whose concern is this. I just don't believe about 75% of the people who complain on principle when it sounds for all the world like they mean "oh no my friend who was being a total dick to everybody got banned".

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, November 21, 2010 6:40 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

how is that relevant

350 "new" answers. My god.

relevant in creating a straw man you can repeatedly dismiss

i mean dude, if you LIKE suggest bans because they empower quiet ilxors with a means of arousing mod action (make your own dirty joke here), but also think they can be misused by bullies ~as they have on this very thread~, then you'd think you might be open to a system that preserves the former and literally eliminates the latter.

huh? who made you the fuckin' king of deciding which SBs really 'count'

Precisely the sort of aggression I was hoping to avoid itt

350 "new" answers. My god.

yeah mods should really just code a bot to write these threads once a month tbh, save everyone typing all that shit every time.

can someone summarise the intelligent arguments itt, especially re: flag post system

am most in favour of the gibreel/nakhchivan 'voice yr discontent' system which WmC has used on me to great effect recently, but maybe a flag post system would work - anyway please can we cut thru the terrible energy-sapping noise and summarise

i have louis

so sad that i have to go to bed and miss all the fun.

so sadder than i mean that.

yeah mods should really just code a bot to write these threads once a month tbh, save everyone typing all that shit every time.

best suggestion of the day

am most in favour of the gibreel/nakhchivan 'voice yr discontent' system which WmC has used on me to great effect recently,

initially confused but mostly lol

i mean dude, if you LIKE suggest bans because they empower quiet ilxors with a means of arousing mod action (make your own dirty joke here), but also think they can be misused by bullies ~as they have on this very thread~, then you'd think you might be open to a system that preserves the former and literally eliminates the latter.

I am 100% open to such a system. I am also 100% opposed to anybody demanding that anyone code this for them, or float ideas they're not willing to pitch in on themselves. People have volunteered their time to help keep this board's New Answers page from degenerating into 100 threads about Nicky Wire in a banana suit; I'm grateful for that. Anybody, and I do mean anybody, who has a problem with it, can buy themselves a couple of O'Reilly manuals and figure the shit out in their spare time, which is almost surely the exact class of time in which the mods are doing their work, i.e., time they don't really have.

I know from experience that boards with a more fascist approach are much more harmonious and life is simpler and more pleasurable for everyone.

― Onigaga (Princess TamTam), Sunday, 21 November 2010 19:36 (39 seconds ago) Bookmark

all other boards are depressing and horrible in my experience though

Or just throw the whole SB system in the bin and go back to moderator discretion, maybe with more use of yellow cards. But then people would complain about centralisation of power

agree on both sentences

I am also 100% opposed to anybody demanding that anyone code this for them, or float ideas they're not willing to pitch in on themselves.

this has literally not happened once in this thread.

this has literally not happened once in this thread.

lol except in its inaugural post you mean

the Main Thing you're doing is making a button that says "ATTN MODS!" instead of one that says "HOPE U NEVER POST HERE AGAIN"

Can't we have both? And the moon on a stick?

― Lindsey Lohan is the new Extreme Noise Terror (onimo), Sunday, 21 November 2010 19:39 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

there is already a forum where you can draw mod attention to things, why do ppl feel the need to do this anonymously

and the one person who offered any meaningful time/effort (mine doesn't count, really), has been driven off because ppl thought she called them toddlers (she didn't)

Survey monkey?

I am also 100% opposed to anybody demanding that anyone code this for them,

I agree with this btw. But all this thread started out as was a suggestion of a system that would work better than SB. There's not a dang thing wrong with having that discussion, even if nothing comes of it.

*goes back to read initial post VERY carefully*

I don't see the sbs Kate got for this thread as any sort of bullying or indictment of the sb system actually. As I mentioned on another thread, I (as user not in official mod dude capacity) am pretty sick of k8 refusing to take any stock of her behavior in favor of constantly talking about how evil ilxors are sbing her for no valid reason. I also suspect that some of those sbs were based on pure frustration about another sb thread getting started, and would have gotten levied against anyone starting this thread.

ppl thought she called them toddlers (she didn't)

actually yes she did

all other boards are depressing and horrible in my experience though

― samosa gibreel, Monday, 22 November 2010 00:49 (3 minutes ago)

otm

evan, where did you summarise? direct link plz :)

I suggest that the SB system be replaced by a Report/Flag Post system,

this is the extent of kate's demands in the first post.

OK fine I admit it. I SB'd Kate during this thread (tho not for the original post) and did so for the exact reasons JJusten just said.

my name is darraghmac and i don't think there are any major problems with the moderation of ilx.

there i said it. waiting to be called out for 'always arguing with poster x' again now.

xp actually yes she did

Okay, aero, I don't see the words "I suggest x" and think "that's a demand," but maybe I'm naive.

To make it really short:

Suggest ban = users are two year olds
Flag/report post = users are adults

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:54 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

put on yr reading glasses, old man

suggest ban = (assumes) users are two year olds
flag/report post = (assumes) users are adults

not that people doing some suggest banning are toddlers, but that such a system assumes that all users are toddlers. not saying i agree with her, but she wasn't calling ppl out for being children

ah - I do see how the effort of typing the extra eight characters must have been too much to bear

how about the post immediately prior:

Do you understand how these two things are different?

One is a blanket indictment of an entire person, without ever explaining why they are bad, just that they are bad, and they should go away.
The other is very specifically aimed at actions, with the idea of pointing out what behaviour is unacceptable, with the specific intent of changing that behaviour.

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Sunday, November 21, 2010 5:49 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

like snark about not typing eight characters, or w/e you'd like to justify yr misreading, but the fact is str8 up that y'all completely misunderstood what she said there, and i'm willing to level the charge that it's because you didn't really care enough because lol kate is annoying

xp areo - dude let it go, she's not saying ppl who voice support for sb system = two year olds & it's p obvious

dude I actually like k8 & wish death on all k8 haters, so eat a dick! that was how I read what she wrote & I know she's plenty capable of making herself clear, you're the one who seems to think she needs help elucidating herself

gbx for sitewide mod

ok but how u read what she wrote was wrong & its time to move on dawg

ah - I do see how the effort of typing the extra eight characters must have been too much to bear

Kate's fault you didn't understand her post but everyone else did? k

...and you were wrong, aero. also not sure what that little bit of ad hom was at the end (i'm being...what? condescending? because i agree with her?)

i misread that, tbh. my bad.

it's far from the first or last misreading itt, on the other hand. but apologies for my part, seeing as it's the only one worth making a huge deal over.

As a former moderator, I think the largest problem with the current system is that we didn't follow up and tell people why they were banned. That would have removed the paranoia portion of the process KDT mentioned in her first post.

I think the low level annoyance "I hate this person and would like to see them gone" reaction would increase with this proposed system, based on how people use suggest ban to express their vendettas with each other. This because I have no faith in a largely annoying segment of the population's ability to ignore each other or to let shit go.

i don't really care about SBs but i'd support the system floated by kate, which seems to focus them somewhat

gbx otm throughout esp re: the majority of posters in this thread being dicks, and i'll just call out darraghmac for being unnecessarily dense on top of it in lieu of scrolling up to SB

there is already a forum where you can draw mod attention to things, why do ppl feel the need to do this anonymously

this was covered in one or maybe all of the clusterfucks previous - quieter posters or posters who don't particularly want to be put at risk of being bullied wouldn't feel particularly comfortable with this

i do think a lot of clusterfucks and misery could've been avoided if SBs hadn't been implemented in the first place, they did seem like a way for mods to pussy out of cracking down on chronic low-level dickishness. there'd be complaints about mod power but the thing is that if you're a mod you then say "YES. AND?" and move on - you get to set the rules.

fair enuf samosa & gbx & autumn - standing by how "sb = users are two-year-olds" can fairly be read as "sb = users are two-year-olds" on a fast-moving thread

in re: whether k8 is demanding that a bunch of people, for free, do a lot of work to make her & a few vociferous objectors happy, here's the conclusion of her initial post:

I suggest that the SB system be replaced by a Report/Flag Post system, whereby 1) censure is attached to specific behaviour, not just the person in general and 2) a reason must be provided to establish *why* moderation is being asked for (and prevent abuse). This can be in the form of a drop-down list containing the things ILX condemns, for example:
1) Ad hominem attacks
2) Bullying
3) Racism
4) Sexism/Misogyny
5) Homophobia
6) Hate Speech (other)

Note what reasons are not given: this system is *not* for things one finds annoying but not mod-worthy ("you are an idiot" or "I disagree with you" or "OMG, shut UP with the derail/meta/hobbyhorse") - it is for specific behaviour that ILX will not tolerate.

If a post is flagged, it goes into a moderation queue. (I would suggest some kind of prioritisation if a post rapidly accumulates many flags, to require immediate attention and forestall meta clusterfucks.) It stays there until it is dealt with, instead of hanging around for months afterwards like SBs. A moderator can decide on the appropriate response - for example, on-thread warning, yellow carding, threadban, temp ban, etc. - and this response happens within a reasonable amount of time so that the offense and its punishment are causally correlated.

The other component would be a way of letting the "culprit" know what they are actually being punished for. I don't know if this is something that could - or even should be done automatically (for instance, a page where you can see your flag count a la your post count, I fear would be treated like a statscock by some people. This is not the intention.) However, the idea that someone or something can privately tell you "you got 17 flags for racism on X thread, knock it off" might actually be instructive.

Yes, it would mean more work for mods, though it would give more weight to mod decisions, if they are backed up by flags rather than seeming arbitrary or personal. But it would also mean that "oops, I didn't even know that was happening" is never an excuse, either for mods or for controversial posters.

"I suggest the SB system be replaced" & ff. is a lovely say of saying "someone do this, please" and really, fuck that, I don't love everything about how the board functions but the mods are working their asses off for free and in return they mainly get the same crap every other message board on the internet gets: a bunch of people insisting that their every whim be catered to. code this, code that. it's kinda gross, imo.

i'll just call out darraghmac for being unnecessarily dense on top of it in lieu of scrolling up to SB

i, uh, i appreciate it.