how to really train

yeah. was only curious bc 18 mph alone for 4 hours is diff from 18 hours in a group for 4 hrs.

Good question... because normally Saturday is my big group ride.

However, I had my Dad in town for his bday and time was tight so I woke up at dawn and did that ride solo.

also, my riding club likes to stop a lot and regroup so a big non-stop ride is pretty much out of the question with those peoples.

ramping up the efforts on the trainer - 1-hour sesh while reading book then watching champions league replay, mostly sat around 27-29 km/h @ 80ish rpm, then ramped up to 45+ for rather swift last 4 kms.

so much sweat :0

Cutty/Hunter/Anyone ITK:

Is there any benefit, in a training (not racing) sense, to deliberately going into oxygen debt by attacking the bottom of a long steep hill as hard as you can, and then struggling the rest of the way to the top at an increasingly faltering pace?

i highly doubt it. blowing yourself up is only helpful in sprint training and jump intervals.

I wondered if you could somehow improve your ability to soldier on once you've blown.

train so as not to blow up i think

i reckon that taking long, long climbs in a really low zone is probably more beneficial in the long run for climbing endurance?

this is from the web so ymmv but i have referenced it quite a bit in the past year:

Want to train for climbing hills while seated?? Here is a drill you might consider. Go hard up short hills while seated. Find a climb that's moderately steep and takes about 30 seconds to crest. Hit it hard at the bottom in a fairly large gear. Beware of letting your cadence slow by the top. Use a gear that lets you pedal at 90 rpm or more all the way up. Start with two or three reps and increase as your strength improves.

from http://www.cptips.com/climb.htm

NBS, blow up in a race and your are pretty much done.

Yep, I've noticed that ;-).

Another question: from a strength and fitness point of view, would it be useful to continue to train on my (heavier and slower) winter bike even when spring and summer come along? I was thinking maybe this would force me to get stronger, and then when I race I'd feel the benefit of being on a lighter bike. (Obviously if you're trying to improve technique/position then it makes sense to train on the same bike you'll be racing on, I was only asking from a fitness perspective)

training on a heavier bike is not going to do anything for your fitness. you'll just go slower on that bike as opposed to the same effort on the lighter bike. your perceived exertion will be the same, so there really is no feeling "the benefit of being on a lighter bike."

Damn. Too much negativity here, another potential stroke of genius bites the dust.

you think you outsmarted the pros?

i mean if you really want to train how about stop thinking of creative ways to ride your bike and follow the science of it?

What about training in clogs? In a wetsuit? On a tricycle? In a lake?

periodization with structured intervals is how you get fit and fast

I hear what you're saying, but I'm going to give this a go before retreating to the tried and tested traditional routes to success:
http://content6.clipmarks.com/clog_clip_cache/amplify.com/5773CE7B-BFC2-46E0-B565-0BA4CBCE8E7D/40843D27-B0EE-49EF-BD66-41E89E54D911

goin ham

you think you outsmarted the pros?

yeah we know how they get it done- speed, blow, epo, transfusions, gene doping.

periodization. lolz

i was gonna offer him EPO. they certainly don't ride around on heavy bikes.

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2009/11/drugs-a-cautionary-tale/

migraine-y effects of EPO = do not want, but human growth hormone sounds fantastic!

training on a heavier bike is not going to do anything for your fitness. you'll just go slower on that bike as opposed to the same effort on the lighter bike. your perceived exertion will be the same, so there really is no feeling "the benefit of being on a lighter bike."

― shite new answers (cutty), Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:21 PM (4 hours ago)

from a physics pov, i'm not entirely convinced my sweet prince cutty... heavier (esp on hills) = more resistance. it's the same as losing body weight which makes climbing easier. not sure about flats, but certainly on climbs training under greater resistance/stress would be more difficult than without.

(this is why i squeeze my brakes the entire way up climbs fwiw) :-P

it doesn't make climbing EASIER man. it just makes you go faster. you are missing that.

oh, also you are wrong

http://www.roadbikerider.com/389.htm#COACH

Will I Benefit from Riding a Heavier Bike?

Q: Would adding weight to my bike for training help my average speed and power? I'm thinking about buying cheap, heavy wheels and tires and loading a rack trunk with weights. -- Tim T.

Coach Fred Matheny Replies: Adding weight for training purposes has been tried a number of times over the years.

I recall when the U.S. Road Team used lead-filled water bottles for hill workouts. A company once marketed a heavy product designed to attach under a bike's bottom bracket.

However, there's no good reason to artificially add weight to your bike. Here's why:

Improvement comes from training at your optimum intensity, not from riding a heavier bike. You need to generate a certain number of watts to get up a hill with a steady effort no matter what the bike weighs.

Take some weight off the bike, though, and you will go a bit faster -- if you produce the same number of watts.

Of course, there's no need to always ride a light bike when a heavier one would be better for the conditions. Ed and I both ride heavy bikes in winter. They have steel frames, fenders, racks and large bags for toting tools, extra tubes, rainwear and warm clothes. Add a couple of full bottles and Ed's bike, for example, weighs 34 pounds (15.5 kg). He just rode this ol' beater a couple of thousand hilly miles (3,200 km) through the off-season.

Does switching to light bikes in the spring make us feel faster? You bet. And we'll actually be faster because, for a given amount of power, we can ride uphill and accelerate better when we're not pushing as much weight.

The bottom line for training purposes, though, is that we're still riding at the same intensity when we go hard, regardless of the bike we're on.

The bottom line for training purposes, though, is that we're still riding at the same intensity when we go hard, regardless of the bike we're on.

It doesn't get any easier, you just get faster - Greg Lemond

I guess if you're riding with a group at the same speed as everyone else though, a heavier bike would give you a better workout.

if you have to move a greater mass against gravity for a longer period of time ur doing more work

if ur doing all hill work, and you quantify your workouts by mileage volume, not time, i think in theory u gain strength endurance by virtue of longer workouts on each hill.

this is why jan ulrich always trained as a fat man before juicing up for gt season.

also, this will not work for blighted flatlanders because your fat will not slow you down much. and dont train by mileage.

Cutty's theory only matters if you're training optimally. If riding a heavier bike is going to give you more of a workout - and, in terms of energy required to get from A to B, it will - or if a heavier bike is going to approximate a steeper/longer hill or whatever, then it will certainly help.

afaik NBS wants to race, therefore he should be training optimally and doing interval training, not focusing on how much his bike weighs.

It doesn't get any easier, you just get faster - Greg Lemond

that's weird, i always thought it races were ultimately determined by speed not effort. ;-P

road races (that are not sprint finishes) usually come down to a race winning effort at threshold. hopefully, when the effort is made, no one else but you can hang on. at that point it has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with who can handle the most pain.

the effort can be one 30 second acceleration on a climb that no one can hold on to. at that point speed is irrelevant. it's survival of the fittest (mentally and physically).

furthermore, you can be the fastest time trialist in the world and never win a road race.

THEREFORE. TRAINING ON A HEAVY BIKE IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU.

find your zones. train in your zones. do structured intervals. that's how you get fit and fast.

You saying I need a heavier bike?

ride the heavy bike and put some dumbells in your backpack. have fun.

:-)

that's weird, i always thought it races were ultimately determined by speed not effort.

spreadsheets, actually

haha i def was not saying that. but races are certainly not determined by average speed over 90 miles. races are determined by tactics and calculated efforts.

no no, ur right on, the "one determining moment" thing is almost always true.

thats the beauty of learning to race- you know that if youre racing to win, you spend not ONE WATT unless it will make a difference in your finish.

and if you think thats wheelsucking, that's ok, maybe losing is just your thing.

(tho obv. there are times when getting on the front and taking your turn is important too).

right. and at my level, you practically feel like you are in the red the ENTIRE race. the guy who wins is the one who can squeeze just that little bit more out of his body and ride away from everyone else. usually on the hardest part of the course.

I bet he drops his dumbells just before making that vital attack.

you are the dumbell!

"it was going so easy, so i attacked and did a whole lap off the front." teh classik cat 5 RONG

wait until its intolerably fast. now go. can't? you just havent earned it yet baby.