American Midterm elections

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discuss whos winning, whos losing, why it is good for america, why it is bad for america, why is it good for the world et. al

special attention paid to arkansas( voter fraud ?) ,minnesota dead and nearly dead) ,flordia(harris, jeb) and nevada (fag marriage, legal dope)

anthony easton (anthony), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 02:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Discuss the merits of having election day off

Mike Hanle y (mike), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 02:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Having election day off is a good thing because I got to see Justin Timberlake on TRL.

If only I were joking...

Nicole (Nicole), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 02:23 (twenty-three years ago)

My freind just bought a Justin Timberlake doll. It has no penis

Mike Hanle y (mike), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 03:55 (twenty-three years ago)

So the ELECTIONS then. As opposed to Timberlake perving, which is surely a sign of Satan's imminent conquest of the earth.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 05:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Ohh dear. The BBC do an overnight special, which I am watching as I work on stuff for a meeting later. American pundits and news people look more weird, avaricious and plastic the longer I spend away from America (luckily that whole Local News Fuzak thing hasn't quite crossed pond) and I swear think a smile is just about showing teeth.

Haven't seen Minnesota results but I'm *way* annoyed about Florida.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 05:58 (twenty-three years ago)

California makes even less sense. Simon and Davis running neck and neck even though Simon's campaign could have been run by ants, it was that bad? Weird!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 06:04 (twenty-three years ago)

I was just looking at Jean CArnahan and JIm Talet's websites. their views seem identical.

Mike Hanle y (mike), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 08:02 (twenty-three years ago)

did you vote, hanle y? shame about carnahan ... now the Repugnants have the Senate. and two years of unadulterated right-wingnut horseshit.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 08:10 (twenty-three years ago)

two years of unadulterated right-wingnut horseshit

It's not just two years, it's decades of damage if you look at the right wingers they'll appoint as judges. And possibly centuries of damage if you look at how the arrogant and divisive policies they will now launch will alienate not just America's traditional enemies, but people all over Europe etc. And it will certainly mean death for many innocent Iraqi citizens, and even some British soldiers who will no doubt perish, like last time, by 'friendly fire'. And after Iraq, Sudan? North Korea? Space?

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 08:20 (twenty-three years ago)

So long, United Nations! So long, Kyoto Protocol! Etc. It's fucking sickening.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 08:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, and of course, welcome back Microsoft! Can't they resurrect Enron now, just to perfect that feelgood glow they must be feeling about how they've fucked everything up and still won?

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 08:25 (twenty-three years ago)

its 2:41 in Minnesota: Pawlenty- "charismatic" Republican candidate for governor is the clear winner. as per the senate race, Coleman(Rep.) vs. Mondale (corpse, Dem.), its looking bad for Mondale, BUT Hennepin and Anoka counties- i.e. THE CITY- have yet to be counted. so its still up fer grabs.
i voted a straight green party ticket. i would have voted for Wellstone...and i was on the verge of voting for Mondale, his replacement. but at the last minute i couldn't stomach a vote for this man. 74. rabidly pro-NAFTA. not Wellstone AT ALL. so I voted for Tricomo(Green Party), an elderly sunglasses-at-night-wearing hippy small farmer. in response to a question about revitalizing the minnesota economy, he mentioned: windmills, solar cell tech, mass transit. he's for free post-secondary education, and unabashedly anti-bush/new-american-imperialism. with that in mind, i could not make a conscientious vote for Mondale- despite his status as a liberal hero in this state.
nevertheless, i dread what i feel is inevitable- a Republican sweep of the Senate and House. maybe its time for my long delayed exile in Spain.

WE ARE FUCKED. AND MOST AMERICANS LOVE IT.

P.S. we are having an election party. there is wine, and there is much yelling at the television. um, and we took a break to watch SHIPMATES- the BikInI episode. briefly, we could breathe. ahhh breasts....

p.p.s. i'm actually really afraid. and why did he have to die?

gabriel (gabe), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 08:40 (twenty-three years ago)

You know, if you could see the American state as an SUV on the world's highway, it's times like this you'd really want to pull it over and ask to see the driving licence of the American people.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 08:54 (twenty-three years ago)

"gist go ahed an' fuckin' try u damndurtee Britisher."

gabriel (gabe), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 08:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Well it's 9.04am in London and this Minnesotan is angry. I'm relieved to know that none of the Twin Cities' vote is counted yet because that's where the academics, students and liberals really live.

I voted Mondale because although he is a more centrist candidate than Wellstone, he's still not THEM and Wellstone's kids asked him to stand in for their dad. I loved Wellstone, and thought the best way to honour him was to not let the bastards win, because it'll be like 'Gee Bubba, they got out their least offensive former Veep and we still sprayed 'em with a can of whup-ass!' Yucch.

American society reminds me of British society in the '80s, when nobody you knew would ever have voted for Thatcher's Tories, her policies made everyone you knew physically ill, yet somehow there were enough votes for Tories to keep them in office.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 09:20 (twenty-three years ago)

A good result for Michigan (the last thing it needed was another republican governor), but the rest of the country sickens me. Just thinking of the harm the Senate can do in the next two years almost makes me feel like moving to Canada.

And I was not perving on JT, I merely think his single is grebt. He still looks like Screech.

Nicole (Nicole), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 11:31 (twenty-three years ago)

reading the NY Times this morning "Oh, shit."

"It was a great win for the president of the United States." - Chairman of the Republican Congressional Committee

Er, what is wrong with that statement? He seems have forgotten that Congress isn't there to cater to the President, though I'm afraid that may be the case.

mary b. (mary b.), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 11:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Yup. 7:05 am: Coleman wins Minnesota.

geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 12:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Gulp.

Look, I can remember when Reagan took everything in 1980 inc. senate seats for IR candidates in MN and...it didn't last long.

But this is weird in that for the first time the US has a REGIME instead of a government.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 13:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

I don't know if I personally know anyone who's happy with these results, although I'm sure the publicly traded company that I work for -- which put a mugging GWB on its online service's front screen for the five days leading up to the election ("What, us try and nudge the agenda?") -- is thrilled.

But still: Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

maura (maura), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 13:55 (twenty-three years ago)

What's scary is that, unlike 2000, people actually voted for the Repigs in large numbers. How many fucking cracker morons are in this country anyway? I'm afraid of these people.

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:07 (twenty-three years ago)

There's more of them than us, and always will be. Which is part of the reason I moved.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:11 (twenty-three years ago)

They just want lower taxes to have the money to go and buy a few more prole toys. Cretins.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:14 (twenty-three years ago)

I think two things are being ignored here:

1) Are the candidates the Democrats offering up all that good? And if not, why is there surprise if they're losing?

2) Why is everybody assuming that the only Republican voters out there are 'cracker morons' or idiots? Because this *just might* -- in some circles at least -- explain why there might be a sense of alienation from the left if one's target audience is being told that about themselves.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:15 (twenty-three years ago)

They just want lower taxes

Especially in Massachussetts, where 47% of residents voted to abolish the state income tax yesterday.

maura (maura), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Wide words from the Nedster.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned:

1. No, and no, I'm not surprised, and have been hollering at my weeping leftie parents all morning for being surprised.

2. I think that your supposition is true, although this says nothing about the smartness or good of those being alienated by being called dumb and evil.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:23 (twenty-three years ago)

are the democrats dead? do they have an agenda? sometimes it seems that they think they deserve votes from all the non-rich and non-white without actually earning them. they have moved so far to the center that they are overshadowed.

Instead of all expatriating, lets rally all the hardcore leftists in the country together. We will all move to one small state, and we will take it over completely, and expand from there. Its a war!

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:26 (twenty-three years ago)

The American public actually seem to want a war. I guess they want to say to the rest of the world "See, we're stronger than you, don't mess with us". I'm not entirely sure Americans are seemingly so much happier to to back their leaders into war (compared with the Europeans etc), but I think it may be to do with their never having fought a war on their own territory (within memory).

Steve.n. (sjkirk), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:36 (twenty-three years ago)

"What's scary is that, unlike 2000, people actually voted for the Repigs in large numbers. How many fucking cracker morons are in this country anyway? I'm afraid of these people."

How is this the case? The turnout for midterm elections, and this one is no different, is lower than the turnout for presidential elections. Populous states largely controlled by Democrats didn't have Senate elections, and the Senate by design distorts the popular vote even more than the Electoral College. And the key races the Democrats lost were quite close.

I don't think there were large numbers, compared to 2000, voting for Republicans. But the Democrats, typically, ran scared, and failed to offer any sort of comprehensive alternative program in a set of races that Bush managed to nationalize.

I'm a bit relieved that with Missouri, the control of the Senate didn't boil down to the antagonistic tone of the Wellstone memorial service. That would have shown the Democratic Party at its stupidest in stark isolation: a bunch of party hacks jeering at everyone else.

Benjamin, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:39 (twenty-three years ago)

GOPeople tend to associate Dems with welfare and go on and on and on ad nauseum, saying they're not paying for those loser immigrants and poor people to sit with their dirty feet up eating Doritos and watching Jerry Springer all day (That's my mum, whose office has a sofa and telly in it so she can spend her work day doing ...you guessed it).

They also wonder what you mean when you say America is on Corporate Welfare thanks to the GOPiggies.

And that nobody wants a war, but those nasty nasty people who could fly into a building and kill all those innocent people are going to know exactly how it feels when we go and do it to them.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:50 (twenty-three years ago)

"The American public actually seem to want a war."

"I'm not entirely sure Americans are seemingly so much happier to to back their leaders into war"

So which is it?

You probably need to know that the war in Iraq wasn't an election issue (except possibly in the Georgia Senate election, where a Republican somehow managed to impugn the patriotism of a TRIPLE COMBAT AMPUTEE who actually voted for the Iraq resolution), and that only about 45% of the eligible population voted anyhow.

The conditions-- a poor economy, corporate scandals, and a heavy-handed foreign policy-- were there for the Democrats to offer an alternative national program. They didn't.

As for the point about "war on their soil in recent memory," I'd agree with you that the physical distance from Europe, or really any other countries of high international stature (sorry, Mexico and Canada), tends to create an isolationist mindset in the US-- as it has for the entire history of the US as a world power. But WW2 was 57 years ago-- barely in the memory of my own parents-- and moreover, the violence of Sept. 11 probably tended to galvanize American popular opinion towards war in a way that the Cole bombing/Tanzania and Kenya bombings/anything else "over there" would never have. The almost immediate memory of "war" on American soil, counter to your point, seems to increase the likelihood of war in Iraq (note that I don't think Iraq has anything to do with Sept. 11, and that I find the desperate attempts by Bush to link them to be nauseating).

Benjamin, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:55 (twenty-three years ago)

"I don't think Iraq has anything to do with Sept. 11, and that I find the desperate attempts by Bush to link them to be nauseating"

I seem to remember that after Sept. 11, many (pundits on TV) were thinking that the events would cause America to be more aware of what was going on in the rest of the world. Implicit in that idea is that our increased awareness would allow us to make the distinctions between different countries in any given region, the type of government in those countries, and the leadership styles of those who were in power, etc. The opposite has happened. We have become more general in our accusations. I am feeling sick, too.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Aaron, yes, I also thought "if there's anything good that could come of this...," hopeful that maybe there would be a more nuanced popular view of world affairs. The problem is that no views of international relations will be amplified by the press except those of the president-- and this president has a stake in making things as crude as possible.

Benjamin, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:06 (twenty-three years ago)

I think I agree with Ben. Following this in the UK papers it's struck me that the Democrats have been lucky not to sustain worse defeats: by letting the Republicans set the agenda on security issues they've managed to let them set the agenda on everything by gifting them enormous credibility boosts.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry that was supposed to read : I'm not entirely sure why Americans are seemingly so much happier to to back their leaders into war.

I don't deny that the war on Iraq wasn't an election issue, but the fact that Bush is making gains despite his incresingly isolationist attitude to world politics, will be seen by the rest of the world as support. That's the way I saw it anyway, not knowing a huge amount about internal US politics.

And although the US was involved in WW2, it wasn't to anywhere near the extent that europe was involved.

Steve.n. (sjkirk), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:10 (twenty-three years ago)

That's a really good point, Tom, and one I hadn't considered quite in that way. I think you're exactly right.

While there are other, domestic, issues that the Congress has more direct control over, Sept. 11 and its aftereffects-- Iraq, Israel, homeland security, etc.-- is Topic One, and if the Democrats entirely defer to Bush on that, they look ineffectual as national leaders.

Benjamin, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:11 (twenty-three years ago)

This is what we're dealing with. As such, I'm not too optimistic about swaying the masses out in Bumfuck. I just don't understand these people.

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:16 (twenty-three years ago)

"And although the US was involved in WW2, it wasn't to anywhere near the extent that europe was involved."

Well, yeah, but there were, by the end of the war, 13 million Americans in uniform. At the time, the US population was 140 million. And there were over 300.000 combat deaths of US soldiers.

So while the US wasn't as involved as Europe, it had a substantial involvement in the war.

Benjamin, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Kerry you have hit the nail on the head.

What is really fucked up in America is that we have, at the same time, in the same people, is the fervent belief in god, christianity, etc., and the nihilism and selfishness that results from the death of god. what gives? instead of either loving thy neighbor or shooting him, we shoot him for the love of god.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:29 (twenty-three years ago)

If you're not going to take the time to understand them or just plain write them off, then why be surprised by their voting habits? Sorry to sound blunt about this, Kerry, but you've always struck me as someone who wanted to try and get the word out on your beliefs to everyone regardless of background and political inclination, to change some opinions for the good. This is the most defeatist I've ever heard you.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Err.. Kerry, that's what these people have been taught by their parents, churches and possibly teachers. Is it so hard to understand why they believe it?

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Benjamin, I accept that the US was substantially involved in terms of the military operation, what I'm trying to say is very little of WW2 was fought on American soil, hence the American view of war is from a miltary POV, rather than a civilian POV. Whether that makes any difference I don't know, I think it would to me.

Steve.n. (sjkirk), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, that's crazy shit. But nutcase pseudo-scientific views deriving from religion don't necessarily translate into free market economics, or triumphalist foreign policy, though the conservative policies on public education funding are likely not to get common folks to understand evolution.

No reason that the left needs to write creationists off as ignorant rubes who will necessarily support regressive taxation and oil companies.

Benjamin, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, the thing with democracy from a party pov is that you have to make the best of the electorate you've got at election time, then try and change them a bit in your favour for the next one. This is something the Republicans and New Labour seem very good at doing currently, and the Democrats and Tories rather bad.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:49 (twenty-three years ago)

i should add to my above comments that i am not automatically disdainful of people who believe in creationism. I just can't help but thinking that religous patterns of belief in unprovable myths (non-pejorative) versus, well, I don't want to say truth, or fact, but maybe reality, or even observable or perceivable occurances, is problematic for our political system. global warming occurs, and if it wasn't for america's belief in the myth of the open road, then we might have more progressive policies regarding transportation in this country.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:49 (twenty-three years ago)

Kerry is right.

44 per cent agree with the statement 'God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so' = 44 per cent are monkeys.

Can we eat them before they eat us?

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:52 (twenty-three years ago)

Possibly what Kerry is getting at is that when the west's most fundamentalist nation is being told by a popular and populist president that the country is waging a war between good v. evil, in some parts of the nation the dialogue about said war, sadly, ends there.

scott pl. (scott pl.), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:56 (twenty-three years ago)

yes, momus, we can ;-). but the far more tastier conservatives are the wealthy ones who have been eating filet mignon their whole lives!

just a few quick question for everyone...

should presidents be allowed to campaign for others? (I don't think I would want Gore or Nader to be telling me who to vote for, either.)

is political strategizing killing off democracy? (strategizing will always be part of the game, but to what extent should it play a part?)

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:59 (twenty-three years ago)

a popular and populist president

I think this is something that's very important. Running view of Bush around here and in other circles = chimp, end of discussion. But if he's no Reagan when it comes to a popular touch, he's definitely much better than his dad, and ignoring this populist approach or trying to laugh it off and/or laugh off those who respond to his stances on things means setting yerself up for one huge fall.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Kerry is right, and I like the up-frontness of her beliefs.

Creationism not touched with a fucking bargepole in my old school, they actually thought it might be more useful to have a highly regarded science department.

Aaron: it would be very difficult to limit the campaigning of the prez without violating his right to free speech. But a little dignified restraint might be a good thing.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:06 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, be called an "elitist" or worse, but what the fuck -- I still maintain that if the past two years hasn't been enough to convince American voters of how fucked Republican policies are, and how rotten Bush and his lot are, then the voters are truly truly stupid. I say that fully acknowledging that the Democratic Party ran an awful campaign, that Bush=Chimp is the rhetoric of the loser, etc. But I'm sorry, I can feel nothing but total contempt for people so stupid as to vote Republican under the circumstances that we are in today -- as bad as the campaigns of various Dems might have been, a water cooler should have been able to defeat some of the worst Republicans who won (like those turd Saxby Chambliss and Norm Coleman).

And creationism is BS, and I really have nothing to say to people who believe that "creationism" = "science." Lines do have to be drawn.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:15 (twenty-three years ago)

And everyone here better pray that Justices Ginsburg, Stevens, Souter and Breyer remain hale and hearty, or we're really fucked. The very idea of Antonin Scalia as Chief Justice makes me want to vomit.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:17 (twenty-three years ago)

suzy you are right re: the first amendment, but I can;t help but thinking that the speech of the president is going to outweight the speech of others. the framers, remember, envisioned that the legislativve body of the US would hold all the power.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:19 (twenty-three years ago)

suzy you are right re: the first amendment, but I can;t help but thinking that the speech of the president is going to outweight the speech of others. the framers, remember, envisioned that the legislativve body of the US would hold all the power (well, not all of it, but you see my point).

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:19 (twenty-three years ago)

but isn't part of the problem that the GOP has pretty effectively co-opted the language of many popular, and traditionally Democratic platforms? look at the debate over the 'privatization' of social security -- the GOP's plan, which was all about privatization until polling showed that people weren't keen on it, was spun as social security 'choice,' and those (democrats) who were originally against privatization were somehow in favor of that.

i mean, i'm not saying that the wholesale buying of these types of lies by members of the public is at all excusable, but i think that the democrats have been atrocious lately at a) providing counterspin (but then, it's a lot harder to explain why one person's use of a term is not what it seems than to just throw that term out there in the first place) and b) spotlighting problems with the GOP agenda before the GOP realizes that they need to do some public relations shoring-up of it, quick. the agenda was dictated such that this was an 'election about nothing,' and unfortunately the democrats did not do enough to dispute or work that claim—even though there was so much that this election could have conceivably been about, issues that might have raised turnout or at the very least consciousness.

maura (maura), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:22 (twenty-three years ago)

My county shot down a proposal that could've just as easily read like this:

Do you give a shit for kids and/or old people? YES NO

Andy K (Andy K), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Hurrah for Maura. :-) And I'm sorry if you think it's a problem here, Tad, but think -- all you're doing with your water cooler comment is saying to everyone (and I mean literally EVERYONE) who voted Republican that they are idiots flat out who are inexcusable and therefore beyond redemption. Don't you see how that is not helping your case in the slightest? Which approach will work better, demonstrating (like Maura suggests) where and how issues impact the lives of the voters or just saying to them when a Republican wins, "You're obviously morons and I don't give a flying fuck about you in the slightest, go to hell, I wash my hands of you." People can and do vote Republican because they feel their own interests are represented best by that party. This HAS to be acknowledged!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:37 (twenty-three years ago)

that sucks Andy.
I had better luck in my area. from the Washington Post...

"Northern Virginia voters soundly defeated a regional transportation tax yesterday that opponents said would have funded suburban sprawl and forced families to pay more to governments they already distrust."

This proposal was so idiotic. Raise taxes and build more highways! The conservatives detest the former, liberals the latter. The only ones in favor of this bill were the good old boys at VDOT (Virginia Department of Transportation).

If it makes anyone feel any better, the Democratic winner here in the 8th district of Virginia, Jim Moran, accepted no-interest loans from a corporation that had an interet in the legislation he was deciding on. Oh, and he is my former employer. But he gave me a space pen!

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:38 (twenty-three years ago)

My whole point about the creationism / fundamentalism thing was more about the dismal state of education in a lot of places where sentimentalism, fear and reductivism seem to prevail over things like civics or critical thinking.

It really isn't as if I haven't tried to understand. It's actually a little close to home, since my mom became a born-again Catholic in the Reagan era, while my father's become this total anti-government curmudgeon. And they seem to be chiefly motivated by fear and distrust - it's very difficult to reason with people when their beliefs are not based in reason. It's a lot harder to make excuses for people when you grew up in it and it's your own people who are doing it.

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:42 (twenty-three years ago)

now is the time to revive that thread about the east coast splitting off from the rest of the country.

(oh and Moran won by over 90%)

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned, Tad is not a politician. He's screaming here, he feels betrayed by voters who have let him down and who, I think all of us here agree, have acted with inexplicable lack of logic or intelligence. It's not Tad's job to be constructive and start campaigning to get the idiots to agree that, gosh, maybe the fossil record shows that the Earth is more than 10,000 years old and maybe the political record shows that the Republicans have wiped out the budget surplus, poisoned international relations, etc etc etc.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:46 (twenty-three years ago)

What I'm saying is that your Ned-like unreasonableness, on this particular day, is unreasonable.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:46 (twenty-three years ago)

What I'm saying is that your Ned-like reasonableness, on this particular day, is unreasonable.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:47 (twenty-three years ago)

People can and do vote Republican because they feel their own interests are represented best by that party.

People can and do force evolution off the school agenda because they feel their children's long term interests (ie their eternal souls) will be served by Creationism. Doesn't make them reasonable or right.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:53 (twenty-three years ago)

People can and do vote Republican because they feel their own interests are represented best by that party

absolutely. and that interest can even be a single one that might be undercounted in importance by those on the left, like faith in a christian god (look at all the GOP winners who thanked the almighty last night) or even the whole anti-choice stance. and when you get all those voters together—i mean it's no secret that the right has had a much easier time of uniting people with possibly disparate interests. i would think that part of it is the collective mobilization behind one god, but i could be wrong.

and i feel that a lot of people who did vote GOP are out of work, or hurting financially, just as a matter of mathematics. why did the democrats not collectively jump on the bush tax cut, or the economy, in their campaigning, forcing the issues to make this election about much more than nothing?

is there even a democratic leadership in this country right now? who would you say the 'leader' of the democrats is—bill clinton? al gore? tom daschle? bush's approval rating may be lower than clinton's was at the time of the 1998 midterms, but a majority of people still embrace him as president. the question, then, becomes a) engaging those who don't, and b) getting the message of why people might not out there, beyond the lefty journals and punditry web sites and message boards geared towards, well, the types of people who post on ilx and other places. this sort of message-mongering is difficult, i realize; the more i consume news products the more i realize that the construct of 'objectivity' has ultimately turned much of them into a white house megaphone (look at the controversy over the 'overcoverage' of the antiwar protests a couple of weeks back for proof of this). but it must be done, because, well, i don't want to live in this particular governmental situation beyond january 2005—a date which already seems eons away.

(slightly offtopic: did mtv show any rock the vote ads or choose or lose segments this year?)

maura (maura), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:54 (twenty-three years ago)

maybe ned is saying is that the ideal we should all hold for ourselves is to be less partisan, contemptuous, etc. whether creationism is idiocy or not, the belief will not be eradicated by making the believers feel more self-righteuous due to the fact that they have been attacked. This especially important because America is solely a nation of opinions. we don;t have debates based on reason or intellect. we are an emotional country. we BELIEVE. In rational debate, one can disagree with civility. in a conflict of opinions nobody listens to one another, but we get angry and more self-assured instead. antagonizing idiots in America only makes them more resolute in their idiocy!
on the other hand, outrage is good. lets all be angry instead of feeling resigned and saddened. lets just use the anger towards some constructive purpose that will actually help to ensure that this all doesn't happen again.

(I didn't see any rock the vote stuff. this election may turn me off pop music forever!)

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:58 (twenty-three years ago)

right, i will be the first to volunteer for the international brigade!

pulpo, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:00 (twenty-three years ago)

As for me, I'm most concerned about the people who don't vote because they don't take an interest in it or because they don't feel they can have any impact. I think some people who vote Republican are misguided or misinformed, but I also think a lot of them are motivated by interests which are antithetical to my own. Like, I used to have this boss who was an active Republican (in Nebraska). She used to persecute my black co-worker out of obvious prejudice and she'd give anti-union speeches in departmental meetings. How am I supposed to argue that Republican politics aren't in her interest when they so obviously are?

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Did she have a pension? Did she ever travel abroad? Did she breathe the air?

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Reasonableness vs. unreasonableness FITE! ;-) I realize where Tad is coming from, Momus. But to not say what I've said is for me to ignore something important that I think benefits by being discussed. The heat of the moment might not help, I agree, but still.

who, I think all of us here agree, have acted with inexplicable lack of logic or intelligence

No, I don't agree with that. I don't agree with their voting choices in the main here, but neither do I see it as simply a matter of them 'lacking' logic or intelligence. To deny them both logic and intelligence denies the possibility that they think like this:

"I believe in these general points of view, x y and z, and believe that putting them into practice is best for this country and people as a whole. These points of view are best represented by the Republican party, and their candidate stands by these general beliefs. The Democratic candidate represents points of view that are to me unwelcome, irritating, maybe even quite repugnant. The minor parties don't interest me. I may even have some particular concerns about the Republican candidate on some issues, but on balance my choice is clear: I am voting Republican."

Switch the party affiliations around and we have a perfectly reasonable way to vote Democrat, that none of us would happen to argue. Should someone say that they vote GOP, however, the result appears to be nothing but accusations of illogic and stupidity. A lot of the arguments here run along the lines of "But I know GOP voters and they ARE like that!" Are all GOP voters like that? Are all Democrats as perfectly 'sensible' as my model above?

People can and do force evolution off the school agenda because they feel their children's long term interests (ie their eternal souls) will be served by Creationism. Doesn't make them reasonable or right.

Personally I agree with you. You have missed one key point, though. THEY feel they are reasonable and right! Either that point is so obvious it doesn't need saying or it's so glaring in its absence that it needs to be brought back into the discussion, I don't know which.

An example: John Ashcroft, who I do not care for at all, is someone who believes in the inherent correctness of what he does. He is a strong believer in Christianity, a staunch Republican and more. He does not sit down every day thinking "Now I'm going to fuck people over because I'm a horrible person dedicated to nothing but the ruining of lives," we who don't like him just think he does!

whether creationism is idiocy or not, the belief will not be eradicated by making the believers feel more self-righteuous due to the fact that they have been attacked...we don't have debates based on reason or intellect. we are an emotional country.

Quite right on both counts. The latter point is one reason why my little construct about how a citizen might decide to vote up above is just that, a construct, an ideal. Dividing things down the line between 'us, the smart thinkers who know what is right' and 'the deluded fools over there' -- a division that occurs on both sides of the party lines! -- ignores a greater truth about how democracy and its republican incarnation is practiced here in the States.

As for me, I'm most concerned about the people who don't vote because they don't take an interest in it or because they don't feel they can have any impact.

Yup. This is where the outrage should really lie -- what were the percentages of people who didn't vote this time?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned: if x, y, and z are guns, God and a GMC Suburban, the position you described can very clearly be well-reasoned idiocy.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:26 (twenty-three years ago)

thank you, Momus -- you said what i'm thinking and feeling better than i can today. it's really really hard to fight back my feelings of anger and contempt for the American electorate today.

ned, i acknowledge yer points and all, but right now i am just disgusted. and it isn't as if i don't or haven't tried Maura's approach -- in real life if not online. but a big part of my frustration and exasperation today is, that that approach isn't working either. shit, in my line of work i spend a good portion of my time trying to explain the estate and gift tax regimen (which Bush and the Republicans want to gut totally) to some of my firm's clientele, how it's not a problem -- or at least not a major one -- for them, at least not with some planning. you won't believe how much nonsense some of these people carry into the office with them when they meet or talk with me -- they really believe that their small businesses are going to be wiped out, or that they won't be able to devise anything because of the E&G tax, sometimes even after you demonstrate how that's not going to happen. and the only reason these people have these ideas in their head is because of non-stop right-wing propaganda to that effect.

i agree that there's a time for a more reasoned, calm and dispassionate assessment for last night's debacle, for how the Democrats can get back on track and stop Bush and his ilk. but not today. and one thing is for sure -- Democrats have to start talking like Democrats again (and I say this as an unabashed admirer of both Clinton and Gore). it turns out that Nader was right about that much.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned: if x, y, and z are guns, God and a GMC Suburban, the position you described can very clearly be well-reasoned idiocy.

If we flip the party affiliations and x, y and z are disarmament, gay rights and higher gasoline taxes, a lot of folks leaning right would consider THAT well-reasoned idiocy. Point is, this goes both ways.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:34 (twenty-three years ago)

that, too, is part of the problem i think. the refutation of a lot of right-wing propaganda takes very careful, knowledgeable and detailed explication to people who aren't experts in that particular field. taxes are an excellent example of that -- it isn't that people are totally dumb, that they can't understand how changes in the tax laws can affect things like the US budget, or their own budgets. but it takes time, the explanations aren't necessarily intuitive or easy to immediately grasp. the law governing pensions and 401(k) plans are another example -- i.e., trying to explain how pitifully inadequate the legal remedy is for looting 401(k)s -- or the implications of Social Security privatization. and you have to do all this knowing that the Republicans are using simple rhetoric, if not outright lying. all the patient, careful explanation goes down the toilet when the response is "but it's my money!" or "taxation is theft!" or "the Bible says I didn't come from no stinking monkeys!"

Capisce?

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Democrats have to start talking like Democrats again (and I say this as an unabashed admirer of both Clinton and Gore). it turns out that Nader was right about that much.

Well, great, and let's hope they walk it like they talk it as well! Otherwise forget it.

Gray Davis won the governorship out here with 48% of the vote, Bill Simon ran an awful campaign and still pulled in 42%, while the Green candidate Pete Canejo got 5%, the largest any Green candidate has pulled for a statewide office and a three percent increase from four years ago. There's yer object lesson of the day, I think.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:37 (twenty-three years ago)

"Are all Democrats as perfectly 'sensible' as my model above?"

not at all, and that is what is most frustrating to me, and probably many others. if the democrats had won control of both the house and the senate, it would have been wonderful in terms of maybe preventing war in Iraq, and other practical concerns. but a victory by the democrats would not automatically mean that the american system was working any better that it already is. it would also not signify a general raise in IQ levels nationwide. many democrats use arguments for their beliefs that are just as hollow and self-serving as those of the worst republicans. this is really another motvations vs. actions fite. some (not accusing any ILxers) don;t give a fuck why anyone would vote democrat as long as they do.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned,

my point is actually that it goes NO ways -- that is, being able to coherently explain that a candidate represents what you believe is best for you says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about your intelligence or goodness either way.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Mission Statement

To give honor, praise and glory to the Lord our God, and His son , Jesus Christ. To promote second amendment rights under the US Constitution, as bestowed on us by our Creator, and to provide our customers with firearms at dealer cost + 10%.

(gunfinder.net)

yay america!!!

gabriel (gabe), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:54 (twenty-three years ago)

one more thing, and i'm off this topic for now i promise. just look at precisely what the people of Georgia voted for last night. the Democratic Senator Max Cleland, a guy who had almost all of his limbs blown off in Vietnam. He loses to a bag of shit named Saxby Chambliss, who's never spent a day of his sorry-ass life in military service and has the fucking nerve to call Cleland "unpatriotic" and "cowardly" because Cleland wouldn't give Bush a blank-check with the Homeland Security Act. As if that's bad enough, the voters in Georgia rewarded Chambliss for this tasteless bullshit and elected him to the Senate.

Tell me why I should have nothing but contempt for people like that. Try to, in any case. Motherfuck them.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 17:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Colin: fair point! It's a better way of putting it than I was.

What happened in Georgia sounds really damn sad, I agree. My immediate thought, though -- was that the only issue of the campaign? If it was, that says that enough Georgia voters feel threatened enough to think the Homeland Security Act was a good idea. Did Cleland make the case to the voters that it wasn't? Is Chambliss a better communicator in general? Who read the voters mood more accurately? I don't know, I wasn't there in the thick of things. Yeah, this is a cold-blooded attempt of analysis of an obnoxious result, but it can't be ignored.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 18:10 (twenty-three years ago)

well, chambliss was also the chair of the house subcommittee on terrorism and national security, which no doubt bolstered his attack on cleland (white always trumps gray, i gues).

last night on the daily show, john mccain, right before his interview ended, gave cleland what sounded to me like an apology/statement of support, which i thought was indicative of just how nasty the campaign got.

maura (maura), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 18:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Big ups to Ned for being the voice of reason on this thread. I'm as upset as anyone, but work I used to do for a couple of political orgs taught me that demonizing the opposition does absolutely no good whatsoever. The biggest problem being, of course, that the people who do it end up by underestimating the "devil" and overestimating themselves.

Momus, since you seem to be so interested in damning America (not w/o good cause), on this thread as well as others, doesn't that interest encourage you to actually learn something about the country? Or do you just want to repeat selective poll results which reinforce your skewed viewpoint? Because I've yet to see you say anything which represents even a passing familiarity with Americans or American history.

ch. (synkro), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 18:35 (twenty-three years ago)

There are many Democrats who believe in evolution. Calling them idiots is a funny way to build support for your positions.

lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 18:38 (twenty-three years ago)

oops creationism instead of evolution. i hate politics and grammar.

lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 18:39 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't think anyone is campaigning or "building support" here. It's a social board. People are just venting. Besides, when we get into political arguments in my family, we always call each other idiots and refer to each others' positions as "stupid". That's part of the fun.

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 19:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Sure, it's all fun and games until they start using their perceived mandate to pillage the Alaskan wilderness and dismantle the Superfund system that makes corporate polluters pay for contaminated-site cleanups all across the country.

But as for reason against smugness, I'm with Ned and Colin.

Mat Bo (Mat Bo), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 19:20 (twenty-three years ago)

The point I was trying to make in both paragraphs of my post is that listening to your opponents arguments and trying to understand the strongest possible reasoning behind them, is a way to strengthen your own position, or -horror- actually have your mind changed when it seems like the more reasonable option. Calling Republicans "Repigs" and accusing them of unaccountable stupidity on a "social board" is to make this effectively a NO HOMERS REPUBLICANS CLUB. Which, IMO, is precisely the inbred attitude that is killing the far left and contributing to the Dem's identity crisis.

There are at least a few conservative posters on this board; I'll be curious to see whether they'll post or whether they'll be happy just to watch a bunch of pinned liberals writhe in their hermetic glass case.

ch. (synkro), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 19:37 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree. Let em rip.

Mat Bo (Mat Bo), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 19:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, for Christ's sake. I think you're taking things far too seriously and basically asking people to not be themselves. In another place I might have agreed with you about people on the left segregating themselves - coming, as I do, NOT from an ivory tower but from a community that's been pretty much ignored by the left.

However, I get tired of that argument when I see it around here. Smug, my ass. A lot of us grew up in these repressive environments. Some of us, in fact, are such insufferable, out-of-touch ivory tower snobs that they've spent the past two months living with their Republican parents because they can't pay their medical bills. It would be nice if you didn't misattribute our motives or our backgrounds.

As such, you sound like a bunch of puritanical, moralizing scolds who make a big deal out of an emotional outburst. I'm back to lurking again.

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 20:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Don't do it!

"Some of us, in fact, are such insufferable, out-of-touch ivory tower snobs that they've spent the past two months living with their Republican parents because they can't pay their medical bills." - priceless. If a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged, than a liberal may be a conservative who's had to pay a medical bill without insurance.

James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 20:43 (twenty-three years ago)

kerry don't go—i think your points are good!

and i'm sorry about your medical bills (and i think that the if -> then statement james extrapolated from your post should be on signs everywhere). i am currently looking for insurance ... ugh.

maura (maura), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 20:48 (twenty-three years ago)

If a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged, than a liberal may be a conservative who's had
to pay a medical bill without insurance.

A very good statement indeed -- there was a letter I was reading in response to an article about doctors volunteering to cover patients without insurance that caught my eye. The letter-writer explained her unfortunate situation -- a young family, lack of appropriate coverage, how her salary essentially goes to nothing but premiums -- and how a few years back she opposed the Clinton national health insurance plan as being a cover for the 'lazy,' but now realized how wrong she was to do so. Doubtless she's one of many such voices.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 20:53 (twenty-three years ago)

I will confess to a bit of smugness. But still Kerry's point is well-taken. Even before yesterday's election, I really didn't give a flying rip if some right-winger or other is "offended" by my views, or by my calling-it-as-I-see-it. I also find it hard to believe that their conservative sensibilities are so delicate that they can't take some criticism. Lord knows they don't have any regard for the "feelings" or "sensibilities" of non-Republicans. Do you think assholes like Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity have lost a moment's worth of sleep worrying about offending liberals? Fuck 'em if they can't take some heat.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 20:57 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm feeling Momus and Tad. The way I feel right now is that the current spirit of the American people is pretty much irredeemable. It's going to take a lot more than constructive criticism of Democratic politicians to turn things around. It's going to take time, maybe a generation, and the destruction of anything/almost everything (Alaska, the poor, several "evil" nations and several others that haven't yet been identified as "evil"), before the USA is finally put in a position where it doesn't have any choice but to change it's mores. This Reich hasn't finished rising yet.

Dan I., Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Tad, how many liberals are willing to listen to Rush? How many has he convinced to take his positions even remotely seriously? Does he contribute in any way to developing a national discourse that we can be proud of rather just falling back on feeling that the American people are "irredeemable"?

I don't begrudge people their feelings; yesterday was maddening. But if there's anything we've learned from this election - and the last year and a half - isn't it that Dems and liberals in general need a focused, positive, constructive set of ideas? Call me a scold, I don't care, but I'm not going to join in calling my neighbors and friends (see, I don't live in an ivory tower either) names just because they've got their shit together.

ch. (synkro), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:10 (twenty-three years ago)

"This Reich hasn't finished rising yet. "
Joy! Seriously, I can't wait to see what the beast will look like in all of its glory! Perhaps this whole thing is like some weird avant garde movement that none of us are picking up on. We are moving into a new realm of human organization. This is the future, baby, let's party like it is 2999! ;-)

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:14 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm a little surprised myself at my own reaction to all this. I'm more of a Clintonite than a Naderite, I'm all for the Democratic Party being moderate if that's what it takes to win elections and get rid of Bush and his lot and listening to how to improve (if we can). But there are lines -- how much further right do Democrats have to go? And do we want to go in that direction, to lose our souls and embrace issues and viewpoints fundamentally repugnant to Democratic ideals just to win elections? And how much worse do things have to get? Shit, there really aren't any issues more bread-and-butter than people's pensions being looted and tumbling in value (it's the voter's pocketbooks) or Iraq (it may be that voter's son who gets killed over there). When will enough be enough for some people?

I really hate to say it, and even taking into account ineptitude by certain key Democrats, but the rot goes much deeper than this. And that some folks of good will here are taking offense at my calling humbug humbug, and bullshit bullshit, only underscores that.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I know that no-one here has explicitly stated that the Dems have to move more to the right or any such thing to appeal to those who voted GOP yesterday. But isn't it fundamentally the same thing, when you don't criticize shameless humbug (such as what Chambliss pulled against Cleland), or to criticize folks for falling for such shameless humbug? Or that some people either don't care enough about how shitty things have become to actually vote, or don't give a fuck and vote for the people who are responsible for things getting so shitty and are gunning to make things even shittier?

I'm gonna have to step away from here, I'm going on rhetorical overdrive and I don't like it much myself.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:23 (twenty-three years ago)

"Tad, how many liberals are willing to listen to Rush?"

doesn't this question belong on ILM?

gabriel (gabe), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:25 (twenty-three years ago)

"the rot goes much deeper than this""
"I'm all for the Democratic Party being moderate if that's what it takes to win elections"

the second is a symptom of the first. the republicans, at least, have conviction regarding their (misguided) ideology. it seems to me like the democratic candidates are saying what they think others want them to say. the republicans presented a unfied front, and talked about the same core issues.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Ugh, no more rightward trending for the Democrats, please! It's bad enough as it is. And FWIW, I was absolutely appalled by the treatment Cleland got—pathetic GOP mud-slinging that stuck, because people are still scared out of their wits (when was the last time we went orange, again?).

And speaking of GOP slime tactics: Let's not forget that the amount of money spent during the course of a campaign is key to the umpteenth degree. The Republican candidates in this election were very well-capitalized (did anyone else get the e-mail asking for money for the Mondale campaign last week?). Some numbers from Altercation:
"...I'm guessing that not too many pundits on those endless gabfests focused on the fact that, as reported by AP, the Republican National Committee and its congressional campaign arms had outraised their Democratic counterparts by $184 million through mid-October. This does not include, of course, the billions Bush gave them through the federal government. This is the kind of thing that makes all the difference in close races and that's just what happened last night.

"As Eric Boehlert noted in Salon yesterday, to take just one tiny example
about how aggressive the White House has been about this--and how easy the so-called liberal media has been on them--the administration billed the Office of Family Assistance $210,000 to help pay for five trips in which Bush promoted welfare reform at official events, then made fundraising stops for Republican office seekers, according to the Washington Post. In all likelihood, the White House scheduled Bush to make brief speeches about welfare reform in cities where he already had fundraisers scheduled. That way the Republican Party, which has to pay for fundraising activity, would not have to pick up all of Bush's travel costs.

"According to available records, Clinton also billed government agencies to share the cost of domestic trips that had a political agenda, but at nowhere near the rate Bush does. During his final four years in office, Clinton billed Health and Human Services $243,862 for 45 presidential events. By contrast, Bush has already billed HHS $210,000 for just five trips in six months. Siphoning off hundreds of thousands of dollars appropriated to assist needy families in order to pay for Republican fat-cat fundraisers? There's no better symbol of the Bush White House priorities."

maura (maura), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:31 (twenty-three years ago)

maura that is sickening. but it gave me an idea.
lets say, for the sake of argument, that even more stringent campaign finance laws are passed in the future. does that mean the there will be more campaigning by presidents? does that mean that actual taxpayer moeny, as opposed to voluntary donations, will be used for political ends? FUCK!

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Okay, here is a safe place for people to vent. It made me feel better to read this stuff.

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Everyone here can be right.

I've decided that politics are not the convincing-people debate that we like to think of them as -- they're not a matter of demonstrating to people that one's policies are right. Please don't read this as Republican-bashing, but if it were a matter of arguing policy, this would be a nation of Democrats: campaigns for many years now have been a matter of unsuccessfully complex policy gestures by Democrats and successfully vague rhetoric about "values" and "character" by Republicans.

What it is about is casting a wide net over people who are already inclined to agree with you and then energizing them. I think that energy, that sense of vigor and righteousness and momentum, is what brings people into the fold, not careful logic -- because in the end, most people can't make heads or tails of the Nation or the Weekly Standard, because they don't follow points of logical principle and don't care to, because in plenty of cases they're probably not even clear on what roles the positions they're voting for even play.

Third parties understand this, actually. I think Nader understood that it wasn't the specifics of his politics that brought a lot of previously-uninterested people to him: it was the pure sense of momentum he had around him. This should serve as a test case for people with any political views -- the guy had a certain type of young person flocking to him not necessarily because they understood the first thing about his politics, but because he seemed to ... well, to have something going on.

Republicans have run very well on this idea, reducing their rhetoric to certain archetypes and certain key issues people respond to, and they've seized control of the agenda itself. The problem for Democrats right now is to figure out the right way to combat that. Will it help to get technical, to try and articulate exactly what's wrong with Republican ideas? Or is it more important to ignore that and articulate some competing framework?

Funnily, I don't think the two are as incompatible as they seem: it's possible to do the former in practice and the latter in spirit. Go further left: yes. Call Republican ideas idiotic: by all means. I think the worst thing about this election is that it will likely lead to Democrats caring more about their elections, which is a terrible thing -- the best they could do right now is stop caring, to come out with the sort of fight that would please both a guy like Tad who follows the issues and a guy who doesn't follow the details but can recognize conviction when he sees it. It's not about appeasement and careful argument and trying to please, it's about momentum; it's not about professionalism, it's about looking like you're there because you want to be. A lot of Democrats right now look like they're scared people are going to notice they have no purpose, and it's exactly that fear that makes them look so purposeless.

As for us on a social level: well yeah, writing off conservatives and calling them stupid is often a bad idea. Too many people have gotten used to the idea of sitting around a Thanksgiving dinner with their Freeper uncles and racist grandmothers and keeping their mouths shut, saving the argument for when they're "home" among their own type and don't have to articulate anything other than "they're horrible." What the entire left needs right now is just a better, more confident way to say "I'm sorry, but that's idiotic and I reject it." If this is a nation of cracker morons, nothing looks worse than hiding under a rock and cursing them to yourself: it makes you look weak and scared. You're better off striding casually out to the morons and cursing them to their faces -- plenty of them will believe you!

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Aaron Sorkin totally understands this, by the way! He wrote a West Wing presidential debate that was essentially the fantasy of every even vaguely liberal person ever and probably most moderates as well: the Democratic candidate who doesn't act like the kid at the dinner table who's afraid of pissing off his conservative grandfather, but instead comes out smart and fiery and strikes a tone that says "no, fuck you, that's stupid; I'm right and I know it."

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, obviously the election sucked, not locally for me fortuantely, but it isn't a surprise. The whole war on terrorism bullshit just did not make a good atmosphere for the Democratic agenda. Add to that a President who spent far more time campaigining this year than governing. And finally, the $180 million edge the republicans had is significant. I mean, money is the real factor. People can only do so much in this system. Everyone knows that there are more people who will benefit from Democratic policies than Republican but it doesn't translate in the polls because the economy is relatively good even now and people don't care that much. So money is a huge factor. If everyone who doesn't like the results would go and give the DNC $25 or $50 or $100 it would help a lot. But anyway. I think the only solace we can take is that maybe, hopefully, losing this year will lead to a win in 04. I mean if the economy continues to sputter, and the Rs now have the power to make things worse, domestic issue will overshadow foreign policy by then. I hope. I really think in spite of his popularity right now, Bush will be vulnerable in 04 if the Ds can field a strong candidate. Really, tho, there are so many problems with the US system, we really need a new constitution. Plus we need to eat all those monkeys.

g (graysonlane), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:57 (twenty-three years ago)

but see nabisco, unfortunately someone who thinks about issues has a hard time being an idealogue and knowing they are right. IT would be nice to find a candidate like Clinton who at least could connect with people on many levels.

g (graysonlane), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:59 (twenty-three years ago)

I think that may have been the Democrats' problem in this election: so many of them were afraid of criticizing Bush that there wasn't anything to really distinguish them from the Republican candidates. In the eyes of the public, anyway.

Nicole (Nicole), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 23:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Also, held the California Governorship and picked up a couple key ones. Some that were lost aren't that important. Local politics always has a much more direct effect on people (at least, people in the US) than federal, under our misguided state's rights system. but anyway, does anyone know how things trended in in lower local elections like state legislatures and such? The minimal success in the Governor picture was the only thing good about last night. Oh yeah, i should also mention that the Republicans did some real screw jobs on the democrats with congressional re-districting, probably accounted for a couple seats in the house.

g (graysonlane), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 23:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh yeah, i should also mention that the Republicans did some real screw jobs on the democrats with congressional re-districting, probably accounted for a couple seats in the house.

Especially in Michigan, everything was re-districted to the Republicans' advantage.

Nicole (Nicole), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 23:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Eh, gerrymandering is as old as the hills and both parties are equally guilty. It would have been more of a surprise if they hadn't fiddled with the redistricting.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 23:15 (twenty-three years ago)

True, G, but surely part of electoral politics is being able to come out and express well-formed views with some conviction.

Also, I think the party divide becomes less and less significant as you come down to more and more local races: at some point the positions become about competence and trustworthiness more than ideology. (In Illinois, for instance, the problem with state and city government has always been not ideology but corruption and cronyism from both parties -- when it comes to a position like Secretary of State or State Treasurer I'd take a Republican I trusted over a suspect Democrat any day.)

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 23:15 (twenty-three years ago)

this must be a different country i live in, what was the difference living under clinton or under reagan/bush and under bush now? there was/is none, american life is not as shaped by politics as the hysteria here would indicate. the madness at this place is funny i really hope those that threaten to leave the country do then maybe traffic will improve.
when the democrats had control of all branches of govt in 1992 was it a regime? little was done then other than raise taxes, and little will be done now, without 60 votes in the senate the republicans won't easily move their agenda.
i am just pleased that strickland lost, what a loser, on and on about how wayne allard wants to kill social security but never once offering a plan of his own to fix it, or actually never offering a plan for anything other than the generic idea of investing in education and job training. genius.

keith (keithmcl), Thursday, 7 November 2002 02:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Reasonably good take on things from Alternet here. Basically argues what's been said a lot already, namely that the Democrats shot themselves in the foot several times. A key line:

Agree with them or not, at least Republicans had a message. Republicans were saying, "When you vote for me you are voting for this, this and this." Democrats were saying only, "Vote for me."

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 7 November 2002 02:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Momus, since you seem to be so interested in damning America (not w/o good cause), on this thread as well as others, doesn't that interest encourage you to actually learn something about the country?

I'm learning every day, comrade.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 7 November 2002 02:58 (twenty-three years ago)

click on the "daily show rocks video" towards the bottom of the page because it is funny.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Thursday, 7 November 2002 04:21 (twenty-three years ago)

I'll stop lurking for a mo to invite all those disappointed by the election results to move to the Democratic Republic of Illinois. You may be asked to give rich daley a blow job on the way in, but don't worry there's a city job in it for you if he has a good time.

philip, Thursday, 7 November 2002 07:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Unfortunately you'll be stuck some really lousy sports teams.

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 7 November 2002 07:45 (twenty-three years ago)

A postscript: I am this close to canceling my New York Times subscription. An election where turnout was less than 40%, where many of the crucial elections were decided by a handful of percentage points, does not seem like any sort of mandate to me. Unless mandates are now given out by the 25% (tops) of the country who are GOP sympathizers unlazy enough to get off their collective ass?

maura (maura), Thursday, 7 November 2002 16:13 (twenty-three years ago)

If it's mandate as in 'mandate by those who actually care one way or another,' then I guess so. Less than 40%? Sad.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 7 November 2002 16:28 (twenty-three years ago)


Tad's still the one for me.

the pinefox, Thursday, 7 November 2002 16:54 (twenty-three years ago)

keith is right though, can't get to hysterical about anything. The beauty and curse of the two party system is gridlock. Also, momus, as far a judicial appointments go, fortunately most people aren't completely liberal or conservative so you can't always predict how a judge will rule on certain issues on the future. I agree with maura that the word mandate is often used irresponsibly and thus is losing it's meaning. Finally, Winona's conviction bumped the election from headlines so that just goes to show.,..

g (graysonlane), Thursday, 7 November 2002 17:29 (twenty-three years ago)

... how much she gets around.


just kidding.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Thursday, 7 November 2002 17:31 (twenty-three years ago)

"Mandate--my ass!" Gil Scott Heron. (It's better when he delivers it, obviously.)

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 7 November 2002 18:13 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.meninhats.com/comics/20021108.gif

Steve.n. (sjkirk), Friday, 8 November 2002 12:53 (twenty-three years ago)

One explanation, something I heard or read in the past week:

America is a nation conceived in fear. One of the finest founding tenets of the USA is written on the Statue of Liberty, it says, 'bring me your tired, poor and huddled masses'.

The large part of these had something to fear, from the pilgrim fathers and east european jews fleeing fear of persecution, to those fleeing the fear of financial hardship and serfdom. This current of fear runs right through to the present day, as the cartoon above so eloquently puts it.

The upshot of this is that when the US got to global big school, sometime between the genocide of 600,000 Philippinos in the Spanish American war in 1901 and FDR's semi-orchestrated attack on pearl harbour in 1941, The USA became a global Bully. Not that there haven't been others.

G W and his cabal, who incidentally are descended, in the main, from the less fearful; the second sons of Anglo-Saxon Gentlemen off to the new world to seek their fortunes, have played to these fears for their own ends (GW Bush's ends TM Carlyle group, Exxon et al.)

Ed (dali), Friday, 8 November 2002 14:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I heard a theory about all of this... don;t know if it is true... tell me what you think...

someone said that part of the reason that democrats are losing their popularity is that immigrants are more conservative than they used to be. many now want to assimilate, make money, and vote republican. they may believe in the mythology of america more than many americans (who have lived in this country for a longer period of time), and are therefore captivated by the rhetoric of the republican party.

this is obviously a huge generalization...

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 8 November 2002 14:56 (twenty-three years ago)

A huge generalization but I think a very VERY accurate one. As you say, the mythology of America, the 'American dream' if you like, is entrenched worldwide. 'Gold Mountain,' as was said in China in the 19th century, is still a vision -- the mix of achieving personal freedom (as defined via other societies) and economic success is intoxicating, and who can blame them?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 November 2002 15:32 (twenty-three years ago)

To add to the above, I think the Republican platform is more oriented towards the individual, and a personal sense of economic success. This must appeal to the petty-bourg., or smaill business owners, who, at least in my experience, are, in many, if not most cases, recent immigrants.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 8 November 2002 15:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Also look at the most recent legal, and therefore voting, migrants. Cubans, Vietnamese, Koreans all fleeing communist regimes so likely to be wary of the left.

Ed (dali), Friday, 8 November 2002 15:41 (twenty-three years ago)

Hey now, don't ignore Mexico -- the PRI was an established and clearly corrupt left party for many years (doesn't mean I like Fox all that much, I should note), and recently their laws have been changed that makes voting in America easier for immigrants. California's GOP so far have been shooting themselves in the foot for the most part over it but that's changing (note how Simon apparently pulled in half the Latino vote in general, a major change from 1998's race). Meanwhile, Texas and Bush was already clear enough (and hey, he speaks better Spanish than I do).

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 November 2002 15:46 (twenty-three years ago)

El Presidente no tiene una alma. No me importa que el puede hablar en espanol.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 8 November 2002 15:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Ay de mi.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 8 November 2002 15:54 (twenty-three years ago)

"FDR's semi-orchestrated attack on pearl harbour in 1941"

for chissakes don't start this stuff. Though I will agree with your general point.

g (graysonlane), Friday, 8 November 2002 16:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry, I'm in a fairly anti US government mood at the moment, resolution 1441 has just been passed unanimously, not even syria abstained and I feel like muckraking. There's better muck to rake though.

Ed (dali), Friday, 8 November 2002 16:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry, I'm in a fairly anti US government mood at the moment, resolution 1441 has just been passed unanimously, not even syria abstained and I feel like muckraking. There's better muck to rake though. FDR was generally a good man and had to bring the US into the second world war somehow, the japanese were going to attack sooner or later, if not hawaii then at other US pacific interests. Pearl Harbour was more of cock up than an orchestration but FDR was probably not blameless.

Ed (dali), Friday, 8 November 2002 16:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Anyway, here is a good analysis of the Pearl Harbor thing that I happen to agree with:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpearlharbor.html

too lazy to make a link so cut and paste...

g (graysonlane), Friday, 8 November 2002 17:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Florida 'misplaces' 13,000 ballots in Broward County

Broward County is heavily Democratic. Jeb Bush still would have won but it's interesting that he pressured the elections supervisor to step down and not actually supervise anything on election day.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 8 November 2002 19:05 (twenty-three years ago)

it is really amazing that shit like this continues to happen. one would think that working machines, trained staff, and consistent hours would be taken care of by now. a smooth voting process is the fundamental concern of a working democracy.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Friday, 8 November 2002 19:11 (twenty-three years ago)

three years pass...
So, will this be the thread for the 2006 midterms, then?

don weiner (don weiner), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 17:53 (nineteen years ago)

Sure, why not. Here's where you can monitor whether the Republicans will lose their Senate seat in Rhode Island (starting at 9pm EST tonight):

http://www.electionri.com/Results/TopTicket.htm

If Laffey wins the Republican primary, the common thought is that their goose is cooked.

My current pet theory is that the prevalence of redistricting / gerrymandering has resulted in people using primaries as a new forum to throw the bums out - Connecticut having gone through a similar episode on the Democratic side.

Edward III (edward iii), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 18:23 (nineteen years ago)

Honestly, I don't care where the discussion ends up, but in response to don's post, I started a new thread: 2006 American Midterm Elections

Fluffy Bear is a man. Do not shoot him. (Fluffy Bear Hearts Rainbows), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 18:26 (nineteen years ago)


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