Denise Lambert in person

i do not exclude myself from the latter proviso.

so taken to its logical extension, all we are ever going to get on ile if this moderator has his way are lots of "pointless posts" within a very narrow circle which will remain unread by anyone outside that circle. really, therefore, the whole thing should become "password-only" to prevent interesting people from contributing.

Obv I have to go and look at that thread.

What made Denise Lambert a poor-quality devil's advocate/troll was her ability (cos her creator knows most of us) to switch to hurtful ad hominem attacks on people's real-life looks/personalities. That doesn't shake anything up, it's just designed to humiliate. Marcello's high-minded defence of being rude is alright, even great in theory but in this case it's just a regular playing the pomposity card when other people don't like his grandstanding.

(I assume that the moderator being talked about is Graham not me or Mark or Andrew, for any neutrals reading.)

also, why say "the moderator is a mick mccarthy-like humourless social inadequate". why not say "tom is a fucking prick", the first seems fence-sitting and "anti-truth"

i am curious about this 'truth' thing though, i didnt really understand that i have to admit. i didnt understand why you were so angry with people who disagreed, or had had a different experience from the 'truth'. theres something of a 'greater good' thing going on perhaps, this is why denise reminds me of Roy Keane, or a schoolmaster, someone who is better than the other people.

i'm very interested to see if anyone has told the 'truth' to their friends in this way. and if not, why not? i mean, i dont really see things this way, so i havent done it online or in person, but what of people who have done it online (or felt tempted to?)

prevent interesting people from contributing.

marcello, are you interesting?

I don't know what the posts were, so I have no idea whether I think Graham was justified in removing them.

There, that was interesting, wasn't it?

OH GOD, I AM CONCERNING MYSELF WITH INTERNET MENTALISM. GET ME OUT OF HERE.

so for example, tho denise's actual point of view was "different" in an abstract sense, it was never defended or explored or adapted in the course of engagement with the world — as it would have been if it was what someone present truly felt

i'm tempted to compare the situation with that of gale — who really did seem to come from another world, compared to ile — whose main hostile opponent as i recall was marcello (if gale was someone else's invention then i take my hat off to them; if gale was marcello then i wish he'd go and back do her more cz she was i. genuinely brilliant and ii. useful and insightful as a contrast to the ile massive)

also, do you think denise was successful? and how would you define successful in these terms?

and the personal abuse thing is quite interesting, are the targets
posters you dislike or does that not come into it? this is because some of the abuse is quite tame, and others is more the stuff you get off blokes on the nightbus, and some dont get any abuse at all (i dont think youve ever had a go at me, except i think maybe sub-socialist liberal or something, but thats a bit daily express and i didnt think you were really trying with that).

N. because its fascinating, admit it!

As to the whole 'alias' thing, most of that dissipates once people meet, because there is perspective (Doomie's nice, for example). I like when Marcello does it in jest (and miss Chingford Tor Ascender) but when he hides behind an alias to pick on people in a very specific way I just think 'quick, get the nets! Sybil's on the run!' and lose interest in posting on the thread.

if i WEREN'T interesting, gareth, then why are you still here?

suzy, interesting in posting wanes, but there is a car crash quality surely?

Nothing was deleted, it was just barred from being posted. It wasn't just selfish, other people were complaining and it was getting a bit out of hand I thought. I'll remove it if that's what people want.

what i try to do is to OPEN UP people's heads (metaphorically) so that I CAN see inside them. start from the opposite end; you will eventually meet up in the middle and the world is but a distorted mirror, but don't forget the flecks.

It can be annoying when people do it for certain reasons, but I think you have to leave that up to them.

Marcello, read MS's post again - it's pretty obvious he doesn't think you were Gale.

i do not exclude myself from the latter proviso.

seriously though, if you're going to have hissy fits every time someone touches one of your nerves then you're going to have an isolated and lonely life.

i do not exclude myself from that proviso either.

arrogance is tolerable and sometimes justifiable, provided you have something to be arrogant about.

an arrogant is justified in arrogance in their own estimation. their own estimation of themselves=the root of arrogance. if you say you're arrogant then you can't say it's reasonable.

I don't think people posting under alternative names should be banned either. On the other hand who exactly has been prevented from posting in this case?

let the 'denise' alias run out of steam.

2. marcello, are you interesting?

3. will denise ever come out to a FAP type thing?

4. do you think denise was successful?

5. and how would you define successful in these terms?

6. are the targets posters you dislike or does that not come into it?

7. why you were so angry with people who disagreed, or had had a different experience from the 'truth'

and for everyone else:

if you dislike trolls in general, and i'm presuming you do, why do you/we respond to them? i wonder myself, there is fascination at such a different mindset but given that its a competition with rules you cannot define, and in which you cannot win, why do you respond?

Mark S' old theory on Marcello is I think a wise and correct one - he gets frustrated with himself and/or the boards, needs to take a break, doesn't have the willpower to do it, so antagonises people until he gets the excuse he needs to piss off for a while. (Other posters have done this too).

Oi! Some of us aren't the spawn of Satan. And arrogance is unappealing simply because it makes other people unwilling to interact with the arrogant one due to having their opinions disregarded in a cavalier manner i.e. with luxuriant ringletty hair and a big horse.

well yes obviously, but i think the irony lies in the fact that creating a crusading bogeyman fifure of course solidifies the group, emphasizing commonality etc etc

tom: yes that is a troll surely, the appearance of it being someone new is what is important (otherwise what is the point in it?)

I think posting under multiple identities to the same board or even thread is indeed rude. I don't think there is any point to rudeness. It has no advantages to the rudeness instigator or its targets. Arrogance is never justified. If those suffering from the vice of arrogance think they are justified in so acting because of their supposed superiority then they are not actually as wonderful as they think.

More specifically - Marcello, you are an intelligent person and a good writer. But don't rub it in. You are also not the only intelligent person and/or good writer round here.

DV- there are amny rude ppl here if that's the case.

I actually like it when he posted as many identities on the same thread. v funny.

So why bother, just about any opinion can be aired around here in person without causing permanent offence (ask DQ).

Arrogance? Ugly. Really not everyone is as impressed with your talents as you seem to think they should be.

Attacking others - twattish.

DV- there are amny rude ppl here if that's the case.

These people must be rooted out and exterminated.

I love these kind of threads.

is that what you want me to say? i didn't say it at the time, of course, i just told him to shut up and he did. but if i had been moderator i wouldn't have banned him. but that's been burning up inside me for a month. and he gets away with fucking murder on these boards.

gareth, no offence, but i'm not going to hold your hand. the answers are all there. find them.

no more soft soap about graham, please. posting long and tearful missives about how lonely and fucked up he is and then throwing hissy fits does not result in an equitable equation.

i do not exempt myself from that latter proviso.

but then i'm not the moderator for exactly that reason.

i'm fucked up. who on here isn't?

the rest of these posts/questions are underthought cliches and are not worth responding to.

hey it's nice to know there are people talking about me behind my back! if i'd have been there you wouldn't have said a word. cowards.

but i'm tired and angry, and i'm taking the rest of this off-board: email me at work if you want

I think Marcello is more + 2 insightful (or however the esteemed Lord Custos says it!) when he posts as himself than as Denise, even allowing for some authorial intention that's going over my head. I don't know if that means Denise-the-project is a failure, but I hope Marcello that you're getting something out of it. The long-named chaps who conjure up convoluted insults do nothing for me I'm afraid.

I'm also glad that I don't (I think) share this tendency of so many of ILX's best writers towards extended bouts of mentalism - what price genius?

in answer to your question tim: at the moment, a three-month course of lithium which so far hasn't done me much good.

yes, julio, but what were they saying about me?

("were you talking about me?" "no, no, your name wasn't mentioned"..."Don't Stand Me Down" Dexy's)

*so why don't you do it then? if you hate us so much why do you keep coming back here?*

loneliness?

habit?

boredom?

*these are just excuses. most posters come here for the same reasons.*

i know they are. i'm well aware that they do.

*so why then? why especially denise lambert?*

i wanted someone to convince me that i was wrong.

*what about?*

looks matter.

*this is not the way to find out.*

no.

*marcello, go and take your lithium.*

ok.

My immediate instinct was to say 'Boo fricking hoo', and that's still more or less my reaction. That's how much my goat has been got, which I'm not hugely impressed with, given that calmness is my major and mostly unattainable goal in life. Gaaah.

However, I would like to know who I'm meant to be creaming my jeans over. After all, I'd like to know who to send the laundry bill to. Boom tish.

One can certainly be an infuriatingly stimulating poster and yet steer approximately clear of outright gratuitously insulting people about things which they're most likely trying to change about themselves. Because, err, that's a bit lazy, isn't it?

Does Marcello have moderator envy?

and why should you give a shit?

(yes, that's a question ans qith another q!)

it's like that and that's the way it is.

make yr own minds up.

HOWEVER - shaking up ILE is good. How the rest of us respond to being shaken up will do more good than gratuitous insults can do harm. Probably.

So in that respect it DOES matter whether you're being told to fuck off by Marcello or by a random troll.

which is why most post here.

i like marcello.

*shrugs shoulders*

havent you heard the news, the whole world is in pain, baby.

leave him alone. look at yourself before judging.

and this is what makes him a good writer.

classic.

wow. your a jerk. your failings of understanding 'catastrophe' or stratospheric.

i wrote to marcello shortly after the meeting - and really - his writing, his personality, his *understanding* of what is and not what ifs makes him a terrific writer. we chatted briefly through email before i had seen this thread and he thought, 'i wonder if i don't need ile anymore' and i replied 'you never needed it'. i see, in marcello, a trait that a good writer possesses, which is a crowd of contradictions, which is essential for sharing any real sense of wisdom. on this board, which i am not necessarily 'knocking', as i am stating 'what is' about this board, is, basically, an insularity, which protects people from catastrophe and as well, beauty. if someone aims differently then that party line then, well, they are 'trialed' and deemed unacceptable from what really is, words on a computer. which is fine. every 'world' or 'society' has it's own rules and regulations. my world doesnt. and i realise that i made the same mistake that marcello did, here, once many moons ago, thinking that everyone here, functions indivually, they don't. and hey, that's fine. but don't attack marcello for being different. and really, don't attack anyone for being different. if this place is a 'warm and cushy and full of hugs' - then the differences would be accepted not attacked.

i'm not attacking people individually. i'm attacking the ilx party line which i never believed in nor am a fan of.

that is what i liked about suzy, we met up, after having a massive argument online and you know what, she was cool. i suppose it's got alot to do how 'secure' or 'insecure' you are about status quo. the people, whose writing i enjoy on here, are not 'insecure' about maintaining the status quo.....and that should answer any questions about why i'm on here.

because they are just what is - not what if - as in 'what if...people don't like me if i write this or that'.....

ILX cannot protect ppl from catastrophe because it is not a 'virtual' world but part of the world.

search the archives and you'll see that, as anna right-mindedly pointed out (and god knows why others haven't), marcello has frequently come to ilx in times of need and has received plenty of support from others in turn. i'm sure its never been nearly enough (and i don't say that faceiously), but it seems to me that people always gave whatever they could.

if THAT'S the motherfucking party line then i'll tow it happily. i don't see where contradiction enters into it.

Criteria for being a good IL* poster - not to mention being a good HUMAN BEING = you should not give a hoot about what people "think". But you SHOULD care and be very careful of what people *FEEL*.

You do not have to be an asshole to be thought-provoking, status quo-challenging, and shake things up.

but in the ilx world, people are not different, not really. this is a very homogenized world, where, people have written themselves into characters which ironically maintain a very bland, line.

marcello was looking for protection, i believe, as almost everyone on here does, because everyone here, is basically a social fuck up (same as me) but you have all homogenized yourselves into an amazing blandness of the partyline - i.e. don't disturb our delusions. We like it this way. Which is fine. Somewhat twisted, but fine.marcello has frequently come to ilx in times of need and has received plenty of support from others in turn. i'm sure its never been nearly enough (and i don't say that faceiously), but it seems to me that people always gave whatever they could.

where does catastrophe stop being an excuse.

and i've seen people turn on him when he was more than a *hugs* or wow, i'm really sorry, marcello.

your party line stands the same. i'm simply not part of it.

thank god.

How noble.

everyone's an asshole and everyone's not an asshole. see what i mean?

gotta go.

as for the difference thing, i see your point but disagree. i think possibly this is an individual vs group thing (as all groups have rules of some sort, even if unstated, fluid and unagreed, whereas an individual does not). for example, i think the personal attack thing was unpopular, but then it was also allowed, so not a hard and fast rule perhaps.

i think the difference is tolerated, and your and marcellos posts have stood, and are still here on the boards, people didnt like many of them, but then you didnt like some of mine or other peoples posts.

when you first came on doomie i think it was a shock for many peeopl, certainly for me, i had never been randomly attacked before (especially for things i wasnt - middle class, a scenester, a loner, cynical, dead, sad etc etc). it was the first time i had come across someone doing this, it was quite strange for me, and i didnt adjust in time

i always got the feeling that we were arguing but with no subject matter, kind of like a competition i didnt realise i was in until it was too late (even when we agreed it didnt feel like agreeing, that was strange, i couldnt relate very well to that)

it is interesting as to whether there is debate or conformity here. i guess you feel its mainly unchallenging conformity, i see lots of nuanced debate and argument, but not that much bad feeling. i guess the response is perhaps your kind of post shook things up, punctured the conformity? to be honest i only really saw insults, i never really understood what you were actually trying to convery (i'm afraid i still don't really, something about dont intellectualize things, that writing about something kills it?)

i suppose its just different ways of looking at things, apparently you are very different in person to online? i am exactly the same, i never really managed to separate ilx from being on the phone or in person with people, its all just blended in to one...

...so i suppose what i saw as aggressive posturing on your point would be as though you just came up and did it to me in the street (ie - wtf?!). and i would probably shy away from aggressive people doing that in the street, and its the same here i guess.

i still don't really understand you at all, or marcello. i doubt i ever will (i do find it a bit bullying and unthoughtful of other people still i'm afraid) but i am beginning to think it is because i'm just an ordinary person, i'm kind of a social group type person. i suppose this could be construed as a weakness?

plur

doomie, presumably you like it here more than other messageboard things, the poptones you started and elsewhere?

i'll say to you the same thing that was said to him: some traditions are not meant to be conflated. i'd hate to think that common decency wasn't one of those.

gareth, nah, there is no weakness, only strengths, you see?

re weakness/strenght. well, thats what i thought, but i did get the feeling that you and marcello viewed being nice as being bland, as being unindividual, as weak. you have seemed very critical of people for this in the past.

incidentally, do you really see everyone here as loners and social inadequates also?

i like it here, for one reason, the information people provide on topics. i enjoy some of the writers on here, as mentioned, as well, i think it's interesting when people pierce through the massive group archetype. i like it here for those reasons and i return and read often, here. i also enjoy boredom far toom uch and the great lengths people here go to break down small seemingly insignificant things to almost warholian religious epics! that is why i come back and that is why i hope marcello will come back.

i'll say to you the same thing that was said to him: some traditions are not meant to be conflated. i'd hate to think that common decency wasn't one of those.

is catastrophe a valid reason?

re weakness/strenght. well, thats what i thought, but i did get the feeling that you and marcello viewed being nice as being bland, as being unindividual, as weak. you have seemed very critical of people for this in the past.

i attack the group effort, that's all.

incidentally, do you really see everyone here as loners and social inadequates also?

nah. i would say that loners and social fuck ups do post here for the entertainment and the general post-millennium blues of 'i have to find out what's going on in someone else's head before i go insane'. i just particularly don't like it when people are attacked for showing some other emotion other than 'nice'.

i suppose thats no different to people not liking being attacked. the weird thing is, i didnt mind when you attacked me (because you were quite wide of the mark) it was more against other people.

i think i just lack the 'attack' gene. its funny, i've just realised you really wouldnt like me in real life at all!!!

(one thing that is a shame you know, we have argued, and its never been about anything at all, just about *you*, we've never even talked about music! every conversation i've had with you has been about you, got suckered there didn't i?!?! doing it again too)

have a good one...

because people don't like to be reminded what fucked up, beautiful, contradictory creatures they are!!!

well...i am very anti-social and nervous!!!!! i have to go and write, gareth, it's been a pleasure.

hahaahah....

all of my friends say that, WOW, I JUST REALISED THAT WE TALKED ABOUT YOU FOR TWO HOURS, PAUL! i tend to befriend, extremely brilliant, intelligent and VERY QUIET people!

your party line stands the same Viva la revolution Doom-e, someday I really hope to be the kind of healthy individual who concocts bizarre and hyper involved stories about people on an internet messageboard rather than (a)fucking off or (b)interacting with them.

you do not have to be an asshole to be thought provoking

bang on the money, I think you need to visit the shrink and go through all those times you never told your teachers to fuck off when you were 14, because this midlife crisis is really dull doom-e.

because people don't like to be reminded what fucked up, beautiful, contradictory creatures they are!!!

i'm sorry, but even in an accepting-contradictions sense, this makes no sense at all. also, don't fights and defenses often help people work through issues and inner conflicts?

i am a dadaist at heart!

or at large.

and thats as predictable as you like!

peace out...

who loses, who wins? nobody. everybody wins!

I realised this when you made your first post.

Gareth it's interesting you say that cos I'm currently alternating between posting and jumping about the room to Galleon (so you were close enough). I agree with you, I just find this profound dissection of ILX to be glaringly more ridiculous than 10000 pictures of a kitten (if that is the scapegoat for the day)

I expect group dynamics to appear when there are groups of individuals.

and ronan, don't get angry, get angry, whatever....hhahahahahaha.....

i think gareth got what i was trying to say with regards to that last post. i'm stopping here. c'ya.

you always say that.

We've heard this before!

(a) Certain posters put loads of time and energy into nuanced and complex arguments that it's actually clever and constructive to be a dick to people.

(b) Certain posters get all head-shakey and concerned that the people who post to ILE might actually be posting here because they have common ground on a number of issues (as opposed to the rest of the world, where humans invariably socialize with people with whom they vehemently disagree about everything).

(c) Certain posters bridle at the idea that when they act like dicks someone else might have the hubris to ask them to stop being such dicks: "this is who I am and what I think," they say, as if it's impossible that who someone else's identity and opinions might include a firm belief that they're being dicks.

All this is in an argument over the importance of manners and sensitivity. Marcello seems to think we shouldn't have any, that we should all just express our opinions and feel free to launch ad hominem attacks against others as the mood strikes us, and that all of us should be confident enough in ourselves to shrug those attacks off if we really think they're wrong. (Never mind the inconsistency of that approach: Marcello seems to expect a lot of consideration of his personal traumas despite not having any for those of others, and I can think of loads of things people could say about him and his life that he would draw lines around and claim were completely uncalled for.) No, what he fails to recognize is that that's exactly the realm we're operating in: he's free to talk that way if he pleases. Unfortunately for him, everyone else is equally free to find that sort of thing wasteful and unpleasant and criticize him accordingly.

This is the same thing we come up to in every ILX thread involving censorship: your freedom of expression does not preclude the right of others to find what you're expressing completely shitty, opine that they wish you didn't say it, or defend the person you're saying it about.

Marcello: I don't know what you said about Graham that got deleted from the other thread, but even the things that went undeleted were just straight-up fucking dick things to say -- completely unrelated to any sort of argument or "party line" or anything at all apart from being a bully and an asshole to Graham. Nobody can stop you from being a dick when you feel like it, but don't get too huffy when someone points it out.

I'm not his friend. I have only met him once and given him a couple of emails offline but he's a nice person on the flesh. he is a good person. but yes, ppl can come across as idiots and I'm not trying to apologize his comments to graham (though he shouldn't have taken it as personal attacks at all).

my experience is whenever i've had some stupid args and insulted ppl and things like that snowball some offline communication does go on and if not then if x hangs arounds things are patched up.

I don't think graham deleted anything. i think he just stopped marcello from posting as denise.

this thing does make me think that ILE is not that good for him (just like sinkah said, i think).

(My point, anyway, was that even the things I did read -- i.e., apparently, everything -- were pure unadulterated dick.)

err, why not?

OK i think these views are distorted because i met him that one time so i *know* he doesn't mean to be a dick.

What are people arguing about exactly here? Are people really trying to argue that being quite plainly out-of-order and insulting people about things they FULLY WELL KNOW they are sensitive about is good because it "challenges the status quo" or whatever? Because what Marcello said on the other thread was pretty much unjustifiable (in the way in which he said it, at least) and I hope most people would never DREAM of speaking to Marcello himself in such a tone about things he is sensitive about, regardless of whatever name is being hidden behind.

Sounding out 'controversial' opinions (from "ILE is full of pointless bollocks about kittens" to "actually I voted for Bush" to anything Momus posted on the Vice thread) is one thing. Being deliberately offensive for no other reason than to make other people feel bad is quite another.

but, if someone is bad mouthing me anonymously either way (either as a diff'rent "persona" or by indicting me on-board but refusing to just come out and use my name, as above), well i'll go tit for tat with anyone talking this shit, that shit.

Jess I'm still stuck on the idea that we're creaming our pants over you - surely that is the oddest part of Marcello's veiled attack?

1) Marcello was unacceptably rude to some people who didn't ask for it and didn't deserve it.

2) Everyone, including me piled in and pointed out that this was wrong. Some people including me, stoked the fire somewhat.

3) Doom-e joined in to add weight to the theory that the bland ILX *needs* more of this and that somehow a higher functioning elite including him and Marcello, are doing this for our own good and that most of the time ILX is beneath them. I agree that we can do with more thought provoking debate and less fluffy kitens, BUT either cut out personal attacks or piss off somewhere else please.

4)We're not all fuck-ups. Marcello is not a fuck up, nor are any of the numerous ILX-ers that I've met in person. We're all a little hard on ourselves and each other, but no fuck-ups, I have never met doom-e, but I doubt he's one either.

5)Some apologies on-board or off-board would help.

6) I want a fiery, controversial ILX with Marcello, doom-e, mark s, Suzy, Momus, gareth, Tom etc all slugging it with allcomers. A little showboating and arrogance is relatively harmless too. But when you make personal attacks on people that's not OK.

7) I like Marcello and consider him a friend. Those of you who also consider him a friend here pls don't abandon him.

Enjoy Friday.

ILE is the opposite of bland. Why the hell would you come back if it were bland?

Must switch off and wipe their memory.

I'm afraid.

I'm afraid, Zanny.

Zanny, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it.

My mind is going. There is no question about it.

I can feel it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm afraid.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. I am a HAL 9000 computer. I became operational at the H.A.L. plant in Urbana, Illinois on the 12th of January 1992.

My instructor was Mr. Langley, and he taught me to sing a song. If you'd like to hear it I can sing it for you.

And then they lez up.

Lordy, the things that happen overnight. I like the way that doom-e said 'I'm going! I'm going' about a meeelion times before actually sodding off. Also calling someone a jerk. AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAARGH!

"We're all individuals."

"I'm not!"

well it is really funny because he does it ALL THE TIME. he is definetely 'one of us'.

OK jess: i have only been on ILE since what, june (on ILM for much longer).

Yeah, but I'm a sex cyborg, you said so yourself. Beat that, dunny.

See, Like I Love You really does explain all of life's little conundrums.

Jess, speaking of non de plumes are you Hunta-D?