So let's talk about the protest...

We started at Gower St around noon, and already it was wall to wall people. One of our party picked up NO WAR placards and we waved them around after first ripping off the Mirror logos.

Going was slow cause there were SO MANY PEOPLE. I'm still flabbergasted and amazed by it all. It took us an hour to get around the British Museum. An hour down Shaftsbury. We gave up in Chinatown and took a drinks and Chinese buns break for a bit then got back in the fray at Picadilly Circus. With three streams of people trying to get into Picadilly, it took us half an hour to get across the square. Crazy. They made us march through a tunnel to get into Hyde Park. After marching for four hours, it was kind of anti-climactic. Stood around for a little while half listening to speeches, then it broke up. Amazed by the number of people, amazed by the mud. Started to walk home and there was a mini-protest starting at the American Embassy. We joked about running and getting our passport/greencard and starting a protest inside, but thought better of it.

The thing that amazed me the most was the waves of cheers. They seemed to errupt spontaneously every few minutes, they were low roars that you could hear half a mile away, then they'd sweep over you like a football chant, but SO LOUD and then sweep off. I wondered if they were sweeping back from Hyde Park all along the march routes. It was truly awe-inspiring.

Hyde Park really is so big you couldn't get an idea of the scale. Until you tried to walk around and FIND people, THEN you realised how many there were. "Like herding cats" as Ed said. Couldn't find any of my mates, they were just eaten by the crowd.

Hilton said he'd be easy to find, he'd be drumming with a samba group. Do you know how many drumming circles there were? (messaged me after, asking me to go protest at the American Embassy, but I just didn't think that was a good place for me to be. A bunch of hyped-up, angry people who have been protesting for five hours, and my accent? Recipe for trouble, I stayed away, fearing anti-American yuckiness...)

(marcello sorry i did hunt abt for you at rfh but just TOO MANY PEOPLE blimey!!)

we ended up next to the CUNT COVEN banner: "if you want to spill blood borrow ours" — mainly painted in menstrual flow apparently hurrah ew ew

Is this where we get to go "nyeah nyeah, we're so central..."

Can we scrap the Congestion charge, and just make it like it was today ALL THE TIME?

If this doesn't stop war I don't know what will.

(I am so tired)

Oh, and "War is menstral envy"

And it was "Give peas a chance by the Gardeners against war"

Unlike everyone else I thought Ken Livingstone magnificent.

The art of chanting, central in the 1980s and doubtless long before, is apparently dead. But only those who seriously attempt to resurrect it (eg: not me) should be allowed to be too haughty about this unfortunate fact.

I did try a chant of 'Maggie Maggie Maggie' at one point, but it didn't get beyond that first line.

(OK, I'm lying about the baby but the rest of it is true.)

Totally agree, I saw a little old lady in the middle of the Bastille pirhouetting on the cobbles in front of her husband as if to say 'Look, I'm walking here without the threat of instant death hanging over me!'

The Paris weather was intensely beautiful, actually it reminded me of the New York weather on 9/11. The traffic-free calm and sense of solidarity and compassion also reminded me of post-911 Lower Manhattan (before the flag-waving and propaganda set in). There was a similar sense of habitual enemies being united.

Chants I heard: 'Bush, Sharon, assassins!' (Sharon alternated with Blair as Enemy Number 2. Some of the communists tried to add Chirac to the 'assassins' chant, but got only a half-hearted response from the crowd.) 'Pas de Bush-erie!' (butchery). And, of course, the french version of 'Make tea, not war!' -- 'Make cheese, not war!'

I don't know how many people were there, but it was the biggest demo I've been on in my life. My photos here:

http://www.demon.co.uk/momus/dailyphoto150203.html

speeches = above and beyond as far as i'm concerned

so does this make any difference? Can Blair keep going when it's so obvious everyone thinks he's a fool?

What gets me about all of this is the attitude displayed by Bush'n'Blair. The nature of pluralism and mainstream society nowadays is that protests are now accepted to the point that they run the risk of being meaningless (though I think the large number of people who showed up today will have an effect!). Whereas in the 60s, protests were broken up violently, which gave validity to anti-government arguments, Bush, attacked for being anti-democratic can now say "Oh I am glad these protests are going on - it shows democracy still works in the USA' and get away with it and still go to war.

I really happy that so many people went.

We had a huge banner from the steelworkers that said, "Make steel not war". Also saw a lot of duct tape improvisations.

Worldwide Iraq protests draw large crowds

US Still Wants Iraq Showdown

CNN reports the worldwide total of protesters as 'hundreds of thousands'. Which is pretty disingenuous, considering in London alone the figure was in the millions.

there was a flurry of "maggie maggie maggie out out out!" when we passed downing street

who lives at like #5 downing street etc? what if they needed to pop to tescos today or something?

The Bloomberg decision to refuse a march permit backfired terribly. The permit granted was for a stationary protest for 10,000 people, at Dag Hammarskjold Plaza, around 49th Street and 1st Avenue, somewhat close to the UN. Appeals for a march permit failed, and there was speculation that Bloomberg was bowing to pressure from above, or possibly genuflecting to try to get some money to try to balance the NYC budget.

I walked from Chelsea to the main library at 42nd and 5th. Around 11:30, the entire 5th Ave face of the library, from 40th to 42nd Streets (with the steps and the lions), was packed with people-- probably a few thousand. Cops with truncheons kept people from spilling onto 5th Ave. Many more protesters, still on the sidewalks, came up from the south. There was talk of trying to get to the UN (off limits). I couldn't find my friends, so I walked up 5th Ave around noon. The sidewalks were clogged and people poured in from the west and north.

I followed the police barricades north and east. Around Lexington, there were far too many people for the sidewalks, and the crowd spilled into the streets, blocking traffic. The cops blocked the streets (east/west), forcing protesters along the north/south avenues. NYPD abandoned barricades on some streets, and the sidewalk march took over, and totally filled them-- from Lexington and 50th, where I saw the marchers fill the roads, uptown into the 60s, along Lex, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st. York and Sutton became cul de sacs, with thousands stranded, unable to get across to the main protest without returning a mile uptown.

At some intersections, dubious crowd control methods threatened to create violent situations, as cops on horseback tried to push protesters off the streets and onto mobbed sidewalks. 53rd between 2nd and 3rd, in particular, looked like something very messy was impending.

In any case, the number was in the several hundred thousand range. At least. I saw only maybe half of the entire area-- nothing south of 53rd and east of 2nd, which included the heart of the protest-- but what I saw was larger than the lower Manhattan Yankees parade in 1996, which purportedly drew 3.5 million (clearly a lie) or the "million plus" St Patricks Day Parade, which covers a similar length of Manhattan with less width. And nearly all of these people were essentially forced into an "illegal" march thanks to Bloomberg.

It was very exciting, in any case.

Now."

Oops. Meant to complete that thought.

Lots of "the streets are ours" stuff, though. Which was very true, today at least.

Over a million in London (!!). 200,000 in Melbourne. Tens of thousands even in the smallest of cities!

The only gloom of all this, to me, is how NYC reacted (not the people - the city itself). That you had your police and mayor effectively clamping down on the protest, as if they expected it to turn into some rampage a la Seattle/Melbourne WTO protests, is a very sad thing indeed. The fact much of the world (it isnt just Europe - Aus/NZ have showed solidarity too, but of course we'll be ignored by the US) is so together on this issue, and yet it looks like Bush still won't see this as any kind of problem... makes my blood boil.

Where to from here, one wonders? Still, right now I am damn proud to be a human being. Kudos to all of you!

In their decision against allowing a march, the Bloomberg administration cited concerns about terrorism. When they arguing against the organizers' appeal, the city government elaborated: there wasn't enough money to provide for sufficient policing of a huge rally PLUS the stepped-up vigilance for "Code Orange" crap, especially if a march went by the UN.

Speculation is that Bloomberg was either seeking to curry favor by diluting the protest-- the city has a huge budget shortfall, and probably needs state/federal help, including the assistance already promised by Bush, but not delivered-- or possibly was pressured from above to keep a lid on the protest.

Seems to have failed. A proper march would have added another set of images to the global photo album, but the chaos and frustration on the east side was enough for even the cops to get frosted about the stupidity of the government, and the perception that the city had lost control of its streets might prevent this kind of garbage from happening again.

http://images.photobox.co.uk/images/link/2/4de5d87e6d4145cf9fb9_61222_2299898.jpg

http://images.photobox.co.uk/images/link/9/d4702bfd31618b4a5675_61222_2299900.jpg

Or if they don't work in a day or two (as seems to be the way):

http://www.photobox.co.uk/public/detail.html?c_album=228114

We got to Waterloo Bridge a bit before twelve. We made pretty reasonable progress to Westminster and then back to Trafalgar Square, but it took us way over an hour to get up Haymarket, and a very long time along Picadilly. By the time we got to Hyde Park at about 4:40, we just about heard Jesse Jackson finishing, but by the time we reached the stage it was all rousing repeats of "Lost children congregate by the left of the stage".

The waves of making noise were pretty wow the first few times but they got boring soon. In the tunnel by Hyde Park it was pretty special though. There were a lot of people, and I guess us finishing so late was an indication of that. The whole thing would have been so much better with no banners whatsoever, just people. The only good ones were by kids: "Theresa and Emily say no to war" and "Egg the White House".

I was really pissed off by all the Free Palestine and Socialist nonsense hangers on, it made the whole thing seem really meaningless. Also the obsession with peace also bugged me - I thought it was more about not going to war without good reasons or public backing. There were far too many easily dismissible hippy types as well, and this all seemed reflected in Tony Blair's speech on the radio, just like people were protesting for peace whatever and not against this war especially. It was far too well organised and sedate too - the NY breaking regulations seems way cooler.

I met some cool people. I spent 90% of the day too tired or desperate for the toilet to be able to concentrate on talking, but at least I know a few faces and names and stuff, and Nicki made me promise to get her attention if I see her around, which was v.cool (She's a "struggling artist"). The SU people organising it were intriguing. The girl tried to teach us freedom songs she'd heard in [cliched trustafarian place I forget] and then asked us "I've got two tapes - Tracy Chapman and Arrested Development - Both conscious artists. Which would you like?". The guy had an acoustic guitar, mouth organ, and full Bob Marley repetoire. He also tried to get us chanting "Oxford Brookes/We are it/We thing war's a peace of shit", which was more than a bit silly.

A v.v.v.interesting day out.

Whoa.. you know it's serious when Antarctica gets involved

That reminds me of one odd thing - the first organiser on the PA said that if we filled in our details on some slip pledging some future 'hour off work' protest, that they would contact us about it "when the war started", which provoked "Hang on - I thought this was a march to stop war happening" murmurings. At least one of the speakers later tried to be optimistic and claim that we could stop it, anyway.

It was kind of cold and I was only wearing a tee-shirt and light jacket so froze most of the time. (I had the A/C on in my apt yesterday so wasn't expecting it to be cold!) It was windy too and the banner my friend and I were holding nearly took me up like a sail.

Best signs seen: Good Bush (pic of women's crotch) Bad Bush (dubya) / Good Dick (man's crotch) Bad Dick (Cheney). haha.

I have to say the London turnout is completely awesome. That is absolutely amazing. I hope all of this has some good affect but I can't help but feel pessimestic.

We had filtered out into everyone else; it was like being on a 7 platform 30 minutes before a Mets game—people's regalia and mood signifying Big Things. But the streets WEST of 6th Ave were barricaded up and manned by cops, who told us the only way to get to Times Square was via 42nd St! okay, we walk down 6th, duck into the International Center for Photography and laugh at a book of Weegee pictures (if only HE'd been around to snap some pix (though yours are all in color, which is nice) (Anthony there were NO postcards of the Talbot exhibition :( )), we hang a right, and run smack into several hundred people, maybe a thousand (as Kate says it's tough to guage these things), enough people anyway to have shut down traffic in Times fucking Square! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOO! The mood was significantly difft here, I think people had just gotten sick of the run-around on the east side and were like "let's go". This was NOT on the agenda and the chanting and shouting was full-throated, ridiculously happy and crazy. There was an accordion player and a gang of people shaking cans full of rocks, doing "Hava Nagila"! The only vehicles on 42nd St were patrolcars, and the only things going down Broadway were city buses, stacked up eight deep, trying to crawl their way through the crowds.

Emma had to go, so we walked back to Bryant Park to take the F, and as we were leaving a full equestrian squad of cops arrived, which if anything only contributed to the circus-like atmosphere, only egged people on. The cops were having difficulty handling their horses, who weren't used to standing still like that in the cold. One cop's horse took off laterally down 42nd St, doing that exaggerated kind of show-horse canter you see sometimes, but listing as if drunk. Nothing its rider did could straighten it out.

On the radio they're saying that the Roman authorities are arguing with march organizers about whether the number there was 2 million or 3 million!! Apparently it's been the largest gathering of ANY KIND in Rome. HA!

The Knoxville protest drew 500 people in the pouring rain (my mother says 700 but she's eh an old hand at crowd overestimation). They stood up and down the side road that takes you from Kingston Pike to West Town Mall, which tells you a little about where the impactful nerve center of Knoxville is I guess. The shopping center!

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/15/international/europe/15PROT.html

Also, CNN seems to have slipped up on its fact checking: in what way was the NY protest downtown?!

My own observations:

*I got to 42nd St. and Lexington around 12:15--taking the 7 train in from Queens. The 7 train, around noon on a Saturday, is normally fairly empty; this one was so packed that not everyone at my station could even fit on the train.

*The sidewalks of Lexington were crammed with people, virtually all of whom had some visible indication that they were going to the rally (signs, stickers, etc.). More than a few people I'd talked to had come from Philly or Washington, D.C. [For non-New Yorkers: the rally was on 1st Ave.; Lexington is four long blocks west of that.] We asked how we could get to the rally, and the cops at the barricades said "you need to walk up to at least 51st St. before you can get east; it might be beyond that now." The cops, in general, seemed supportive & helpful; they just didn't want to have a life-threatening mob scene.

*By the time we'd gotten to 51st, they were saying 55th, which then became 59th, which then became 63rd, which then became 68th--but there were no barricades at Lex and 64th. (And by the time we were at Lex and 58th, the ralliers had taken over all but two lanes of traffic, too.) I cut over to 3rd Ave. on 64th, where the sidewalks were TOTALLY jammed, and eastward passage looked blockaded for at least a few more blocks. Everywhere there was a police barricade, there were a bunch of people saying "but how can we get to where we can see the speakers?" The answer appeared to be "you can't--there simply wouldn't be room." At that point, it was a bit after 2 PM, and I decided I'd done my bit and headed west and downtown. I mean, how many times can one hear Patti Smith sing "People Have the Power" anyway?

The general mood was really heartening: "wow, there are a lot more of us than anyone thought there'd be!"

There were a couple of people I saw with face-covering masks and huge International ANSWER signs, which creeped me out. (ANSWER does that in general.)

Unrelated to protest: I finally discovered the uptown Grand Central entrance, at 48th and Park, because I was trying to get to the 7 or S train-- what a salvation! And there were anti-war graffiti and signs the length of it as well, left by the Connecticut and Westchester anti-war massive, taking the Metro North Peace Train!

The threat that has led to this unprecedented security is not from terrorists but from the peace march," said a letter to The Guardian signed by S[____] W[______] of Suffolk. "I wasn't going to go, but I will now."

Actually this is why I ultimately decided to go to the NYC rally, despite work, cold, etc. And I guess it's not an uncommon motive.

One of the speakers estimated 6,800; the news reports said 3,000 and I think that's more accurate.

Unfortunately some of the sectarian groups were the first to get the ball rolling on a protest, and their participation kept some more establishment figures away. For instance the Chicago city council passed an anti-war resolution, but no aldermen spoke at the protest. The more mainstream anti-war groups decided not to concentrate on today, I think, expecting that the future will (sadly) bring another opportunity for a rally. I liked the idea of holding the protest in the Pakistani/Indian neighorhood (not least because I supped on Indian food afterward), but ultimately I think it would have gotten more press had it been held downtown.

There were certainly a fair share of the sectarian crazies, including a squad of people dressed up like skeletons wearing American flag hats (oy vey). Many of the signs held and slogans chanted sounded shrill and ill-informed to these wishy-washy ears. But I was very pleasantly surprised to find that most of the speakers were from the Arab/Muslim communities in Chicago. One woman, about my age it seemed, had come back from Iraq where she witnessed the effects of the ongoing sanctions--which he related to the crowd in moving detail.

Overall I was glad I attented and the crowd seemed larger than at previous Chicago antiwar rallies. I hope against hope that the UN opposition forces our government to come to its senses; but should that not happen, I hope the next Chicago march will be something on the magnitude of what we saw in New York or even better, in Madrid (2 million!!! according to Reuters).

Finally did anyone hear Robert Byrd's speech to his fellow senators? Rather scathing--he called his colleagues cowards, said they were sleeping as war preparations were being made in their name, etc. I was rather impressed (as I have been by Byrd since Bush II took office).

I wonder why that was?

Suzy: 'Go on Jesse, PITCH that tent!'

George Bush is wanker, he wears a cowboy hat
And when he saw Iraqi oil, he said 'I'm having that',
He won't say no to Enron,
He won't say to Shell,
And when his daddy tells him, he'll bomb Iraq to hell

That got lots of cheers and laffs and appluse, but we ran out of breath before we attained critical mass with this superb piece of lyricism.

Freedom of speech is a great thing and it's amazing how we take for it granted so easily.

Of course, we have freedom of speech, the right to vote for a choice of candidates, we can disagree, write letters, petitions, demonstrate and call those we don't agree with names.

Easy to forget to the people that are protesting that those in Iraq have no freedom of speech, cannot disagree, have to protest for things they don't believe in. The alternative is either a swift death which all things considered is merciful to watching your kids tortured, maybe you and the family as a guinea pigs for chemical weapons. Or watching the wife you love repeatedly raped.

Yep, let's not have a war, let's just keep the status quo and condone everything that Saddam is doing and might yet do but let's just take the weapons off him that can do us harm. It's easier on our consciences that we're not killing them by mistake I suppose. So we can keep filling up the People Carrier, the school run 4x4 or just your ickle car with cheaper petrol knowing every tankful contributes to this regime especially if you buy it from Fina, Jet or Total. Let's make it a nice, cynical argument over oil and accuse the wrong people of having a vested interest to give it a suger-coat of respectability. Let's hide the arrogance of exhibiting our rights and liberty to an entire population of a country that has none.

Sounds pretty self-interested, self-absorbed and selfish if you ask me, the kind of hypocrisy that real peace loving people find sickeningly offensive.

Still at least some of the placards were amusing, I'm sure the jokes were appreciated by your everyday Iraqi.

nyeh. Firstly the Socialist nonsense people provided the organisational backbone for the march, so it would be a bit churlish not to have them along fro the ride.

secondly, the Palesine issue is important, because if the Iraq war starts there is a good likelihood that with the world's media attention elsewhere Sharon will launch an even more hardline crackdown in the Occupied Territories, possibly even going so far as to try and expel large sections of the Palestinian population.

Don't Want To Die - the Iraqis will have plenty of free speech and democracy when US-UK cluster bombs kill them.

the protests against the vietnam war got much this kind of response also, but in fact the 1968 student protests travelled round the world, sparking similar large-scale demonstrations, until they were stopped by tanks in czechoslovakia, the exact moment the ussr lost the last vestige of its credibility anywhere... the soviet empire was big and slow, and it took another two decades for it to unravel, but better slow unravelling and the arrival of the actual possibility of street-level democracy everywhere than the unleashing of nuclear terror

i'm sure there are ppl in former iron curtain countries who still resent the western student revolts as being "self-interested, self-absorbed and selfish" — but those revolts nevertheless played a major role in the (relativiely) non-violent self-removal of the stalinist monolith

hey, Vicar: it has just struck me: if there was a march called 'DON'T ATTACK IRAQ, AND ESTABLISH A UNITED IRELAND', wouldn't you stay at home?

not that much i felt: eg the countryside alliance weren't very in evidence, nor the truckers

apparently ken did get an anti-congestion charge heckler though!!

Let alone her name. Ban this sick stunt.

if the second part of that odd slogan was receiving equal billing I might well stay at home.

Re. the "marching band," they seemed to me to be a marching band comprising sectarian crazies. A few of them were waiting with me at the bus stop and they seemed to be friends with the people who wore the sectarian buttons and carried the magazines, etc. Also in their stridency and their patent disinterest in the speakers (who were talking from the platform on Leavitt [??] while the marching band was making a ungodly noise a few blocks away, drawing some media attention away from the speakers in the process) and their decision to use the red white and blue not as a positive symbol (as one marcher did upfront) but as a negative one--this all smacked of the sectarians to me.

What I'm saying is that the march reflected a very broad band of opinion indeed, which is something the "Anti-War = Pro-Saddam" coverage (from Blair downwards) simply ignores. And I think this is what's going to be the real problem for Blair post-demo - by caricaturing marchers as a unified front of Saddam appeasers he is insulting and losing the huge swathe of centre-left opinion that can't be painted with such broad strokes. Ignoring public opinion is one thing - Blair has done it before and been right to (fuel protests) - but not even attempting to understand and reply to it is something else entirely.

Meanwhile it was a freezing, exciting, exhausting day out and Isabel and I enjoyed it. I'm glad there wasn't a 'carnival atmosphere', personally, and I'm sneakingly glad I didn't hear most of the speeches in Hyde Park, but mostly I'm glad I went.

How does this apply to my post?

Where did I say anything like this?

Is where.

Did it ever occur to you that some of these "world may rot" foax think they're in the business of saving the world (again, agree or disagree as you like) and c'mon, the People's Weekly World as sectarian? For god's sake are you living in 1955? The PWW ppl. probably worked harder to get Joe Moore elected than most of the rest of his campaign staff. (As far as I know, they're very involed in local elections).

I am not red-baiting. But it is my conviction that rhetoric peppered with Marxist-Leninist phraseology and vituperative denunciations of capitalism and the middle class--evident in many of the banners, newspapers, etc. carried to the rally -- is not to the benefit of the anti-war "side." In Europe this might play differently and that speaks well of the breadth of political debate there.

*entrenching two sides = key self-defeating "goal" of bourgeois Marxists

as for "bourgeois Marxists" this is just weird to me coz either you're trying to make a claim for yourself or someone else as an authentic "proletarian Marxist" who you like, or yr. throwing an insult at them which only makes sense in their value system not yours.

Also Are the DoJ immigrant policies "racist"?

One of the mainstream groups you allude to is also rather exclusionary and snobbish - their definition of "mainstream" being, apparently, people who hold professional positions, are well-connected, and most likely live in the suburbs. If several buses from northwest Indiana or a youth group from the south side isn't "mainstream" enough for them....Usually when people say "mainstream", they actually mean "people who look like me, dress like me, and have the same income level as me."

As for PWW - they've got some good articles in that newspaper! It has better labor coverage than the Nation or whatever magazine it is that we're supposed to read. And why are people offended by their presence but not the horrible folk music (which no one south of 35th street listens to) on the stage?

amazing breadth of photos here - http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/19/nyregion/19RALL.html

*this is a bit harsh, esp.when it wz so cold, but come on pop-kids, RAISE YR STANDARDS!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/20/nyregion/20MATT.html