HIS DARK MATERIALS

I get this vision of Dan leading around a herd of kids a la the Pied Piper.

I have the omnibus of this sucker sitting around. Like too much else in my apartment, one day I'll actually read it.

i shold def try and read it before the movie, i suppose (its also being made into a theatre production).

Only sort of. The Potter books are episodic, for one thing, and although there's an overarching plot throughout the series, the books are more concerned with "so, in year two, this stuff happened, and also that other plot got advanced a half-inch or so." There are differences in tone and theme (for lack of a less grammar-schooly term) and whatnot, too, but I think that's the difference you'd notice first.

Also ... post again when you finish the trilogy? Cause the third book is very different, and I know a lot of people were put off by that.

Not yet. Check back in a couple of years and I most likely will.

My brother and I have spent hours arguing over these books, but my kids won't even want to read them before age 12, at which point my daughter will be all over them.

Whether it is or not, Steven King did just that in his review of the new Potter book. He claims that Order of the Phoenix is better than any of the books in the books in this series.

What King probably is reacting strongly to, though, is that Pullman pisses off an inordinate number of writers by giving interviews in which he comes across like he thinks he's the only writer to ever work in a genre and write stories which are about more than dragons and robots and robot dragons -- that it hadn't occurred to anyone else to address some kind of, you know, theme, and possibly employ some characterization and so forth. I like his books, but he's definitely part of this "everyone sucks except me, and possibly several people who are now dead" recent generation of writers.

... not, like I said, that I'm projecting or anything :)

And Stephen King is not innocent hisself. Maybe skeered though.

I think in this case -- I'd have to read what he actually said -- King was just blinded. I like both Harry Potter and Pullman, but I can't see how anyone could argue that Order of the Phoenix is better than the Pullman books. It's got that whole "it's about damn time it came out"/"hunger is the best spice" thing going for it, granted.

Hey now, back up -- I wasn't saying THAT. As noted above, I haven't even read his books yet (though I know something of the general story and approve).

My own feeling is that they are much better than Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, which is their only contemporary competitor. Will kids (and adults as well) still be wild about Harry 100 years from now, or 200? My best guess is that he will indeed stand time's test and wind up on a shelf where only the best are kept; I think Harry will take his place with Alice, Huck, Frodo, and Dorothy, and this is one series not just for the decade, but for the ages.

I would reprint the whole review but I don't want the copyright police after me.

PUT DOWN THE COMPUTER, NICOLE.

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/pic200_web/drp000/p043/p04307mc5wb.jpg

(Is it Pas or Pax? God, I'm hopeless.)

I suspect the substance of the themes and the brilliant bravura superscience will be lost in a movie adaptation, which will surely aim at the HP audience. I think these are genuinely great books on all kinds of levels, far better than Tolkien in pretty much every way. They are probably my favourite children's books ever, even ahead of Alan Garner. Well made, a lot of it will look really fabulous, especially duelling polar bears in armour. I hope they don't cop out on the seriousness, or the religious and scientific content.

However, I wouldn't compare them to the H.P. tales - I think that _HDM_ is meant for a more mature audience, and the stories are infinitely more complex. While the H.P. story line is becoming increasingly complex and addresses more issues, the stories still make me think of fifth- and sixth-grade student readers, whereas I think of seventh- and eight-grades as being the starting points for _HDM_ (which is the same range for The Lord of the Rings in my mind, though The Hobbit works with younger little ones.

Why eight?

HDM is very pompous, portentous, but full of excellent tales which do try and push the envelope (ick) for children's fiction. He's really made an effort, and while it all gets a bit up its own arse, it's pretty damn good reading.

I assume you're able to get in there already, surely.

Is anyone going to buy/read Lyra's Oxford?

("for the Dads")

I thought the third was disappointing, but I don't know how it couldn't have been. Pullman was throwing his never ever-wider with every book (staring out in our world at the beginning of Knife was a great shock, and the dust = dark matter stuff was good too). But the third kept having to add more and more concepts, and then characters to explain concepts, to close all the doors it had opened (ha ha). Oh here's xx swooping in to explain what needs to happen next. Felt a little rickedy. Lots of compelling locales/events (land of the dead esp) but the overall shape was a little diffuse.

death of decrepit unhealthy pope-like god: not even a little narrator announcement 'and thus, they killed god' it's not even mentioned later, by anyone, 'uhh, d'you know what you did back there?'

Mary Malone's story of her childhood love and then leaving her faith was terrific, but otherwise I felt some of the NO GOD GEDDIT stuff near the end was a little too telegraphed, a little to SUCK ON THAT, CS LEWIS.

Does anyone know this other thread or is it all in my head?

Narnia nd Fairy Tales
Alan Garner: C or D?
Susan Cooper: C or D?
Northern Lights
His Dark Materials

possibly not

(withdrawn god = kabbalah!)

15 (the twelve was just a rough estimate)

My thoughts on finishing amber spyglass by the way is that it is a perfectly english ending, and therefore crap. Down with catholicism up with anglicanism (same structure without as many rigid sexual hangups) and meanwhile growing up means getting over adventure and becoming a boring scholar.

That reminds me of the thread I keep thinking I imagined, where mark s came up with an intriguing new concept of history and time.

http://www.spikemagazine.com/0602amberspyglass.htm

Great. Philip Pullman appears to have turned into Terry Pratchett without the sense of humour.

Church of Englanders protesting about the oppression by religion = just fucking pathetic, to be honest.

Why? Religions have oppressed and manipulated people all over the planet. Isn't that enough to be indignant about?

The armoured polar bears reminded me of myself when I've been drinking.

Most boring statement ever. "The imagination behind the setting and the plot-turns and the characterization didn't really mean much, but WHOO IT WASN'T NICE TO RELIGION!"

Yesterday, industry insiders leaked news that Tom Stoppard's script for "The Golden Compass" had been "junked," and director Chris Weitz ["About a Boy"] was tipped to take over on the writing. Industry sources described him as a "huge dork-level fan of the books [who] wants to do them justice." He's won praise for his understanding and direction of the boy character in "About a Boy." The ability to write convincingly about teenagers would be an advantage in "The Golden Compass."

Yes, the director of a Nick Hornby novel adaptation is all revved up for His Dark Materials. Oh dear.

Stoppard seems to have bad luck with screenplays, didn't he write Baron Munchausen and have all of his stuff rewritten? Maybe he's not a good screenwriter.

(they would all work very well as very good 150-minutes-ish movies but as average or possibly just QUITE good 150 minutes movies they might be really bad.

(um xpost.)

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, BE ON GUARD FOR ANY SLASH/FIC WRITERS!

(I have a friend who's become fascinated by the slash community rather than by slash itself.)

Kinda like the Tripods when I was a kid. I remember loving that when I was younger, as I remember they televised the first two books of the trilogy, left with a massive cliffhanger and never produced the final series.

Also, artists of this kind are also extremely aware of their own failings. More often than not, if they don't think they're writing their best, then they'll often quit rather than produce something they're not happy with. He can certainly afford to quit.

Thirdly, it's possible that he was attached principally as a draw to financiers and partners.

This would be a great idea - in the vein of 'The Box Of Delights'. The stage play was very good btw - skipped out the wheelies/Mary Malone, which I thought really diluted the pace of the books towards the end. And the witches rocked - esp. Ruta Skadi.

I never read the books or saw the TV series -- but! For some bemusing reason, the official Boy Scout magazine Boys' Life serialized all three books in comic book form, one page per montly issue. Lasted something like four years!

"George touched Anne's **** with her ****, **** and slowly **** up her ****."

Am I the only person on this thread who actually likes Mary Malone, by the way?

Who else has seen these, then?

I suppose the movies will be disappointing if they get made, but I hope they do get made just for the controversy. What I dread is that all the anti-church God-killing stuff will somehow get excised and we'll get a movie about a girl who goes to the North Pole and saves her friend Roger with the help of some bears and a guy in a balloon. But maybe Pullman wouldn't allow that.

His Dark Materials = The Matrix Trilogy + Bears

xpost

also it pissed me off the way the crowd giggled self-consciously *every* *fucking* *time* the gallivespians appeared. shut up!

I was disappointed that Lyra tails off from being the headstrong protagonist to a figure often in need of protection at the hands of her man in the second and third.

I'm surprised he never even tried to underline the message about 'killing God' - it wasn't that the two of them killed God, really - they set him free. 'God' himself was a prisoner of the theocrats, kept alive to ensure their tyranny - that's by far the most subtle metaphor of the trilogy, but he never even points back to it.

Where it shines is the love he shows interaction between characters - the noble gyptians (were they Roma or Irishmen?) protecting Lyra, the witch-councils, all the sections with Mary and the wheeled creatures. When Pullman moved away from his Big Themes and advancing the plot, the writing was truly exhilirating and joyous in a way that I've never encountered in fantasy.

..One would assume.

(this is all going from slightly shaky memories of the book, though, so I could be wrong)

doesn't he mention some connection to the dutch too?

I don't remember this at all - but, Holland can also refer to a large part of the South Lincolnshire fenland.

I'm sure there was something approaching an oil refinary mentioned somewhere. I might be imagining it though.

Before drainage, the Lincolnshire Fens and the Yorkshire marshes were all connected anyway. There was a more-or-less continuous belt of fen from the Wash through to the Trent valley, and it was an important trading route, with Boston, the largest port in the country outside London, at one end.

(the Yorkshire fens - usually called Moors even though they're nothing like moorland as you imagine it - are a large, flat, bog formed where the Trent, Ouse, Aire and Don meet to form the Humber)

LA Times puff piece on things but there's some useful bits among the slop.

that article ends kind of abruptly!

SEQUEL

my daemon is a fox.

Okay, so. As muttered above, I've had the damn thing sitting around for a bit and had promised myself I would obv. read it all before the movie came out. I'd mentioned the books to a friend of mine, she went and got her own copy from the library and started to read it and I was all, "Okay, it's a sign."

So I read the first one today. Lived up to all the promise. And to celebrate I then saw the trailer, which I'd carefully avoided until now. This'll be good. (But isn't Mrs. Coulter supposed to be a brunette?)

More thoughts on all the books when I've read them all...

Read in a single day? Even with all those long words like 'magisterium'? I think you'll like the second one (The Subtle Knife) even more. It really does build the momentum.

...as for the brunette issue, Pullman stated he originally wrote the part with Nicole Kidman in mind, and she is, lest we forget, a gingah. I think in the film her golden blonde hair will set her apart from the witches, i.e. Eva Green and her dark ilk.

Read in a single day? Even with all those long words like 'magisterium'?

It's a quick read! And I don't mean that as an insult, rather as a sign of appreciation -- he takes you into the world created very easily and the various characters and plot points are quick to grasp, if the deeper theology requires reflection. Also, the setting reminded me a hell of a lot of Randall Garrett's Lord D'Arcy stories, of which I'm v. fond, so it was easy to accept an alternate England/Earth setting mixing the supernatural and the technical.

i mainlined the first two over last weekend. they remind me more of l'engle than lewis, carroll, or rowling – and the writing is much lovelier, to boot.

i'm a lion named sophia

L'Engle! That's a *sharp* comparison -- as soon as I read that it all clicked on that front.

Randall Garrett's Lord D'Arcy stories

totally forgot about those, i loved them.

i'm surprised most of the initial rush of hype isn't even mentioning the anti-theist angle. i guess they're saving that up for the big arts-section think pieces this fall.

in the meantime, i'll be preparing my rebuttal.

Unsurprisingly, given the fact it's US-financed, the 'anti-theist' angle has been toned down in the film in favour of a more generic 'anti-authoritarian' slant. Even Pullman's backtracking a bit, saying that the 'Magisterium' might denote an umbrella organisation of all kinds of wickedness, not just the Catholic Church, as so brazenly alluded to in the books.

i'm surprised most of the initial rush of hype isn't even mentioning the anti-theist angle

"So I dunno, Bob, you think we should play that up given how most of America claims to believe in God?"

"Nah, Mark, better to let it lie for now."

Repeat as needed.

I would have thought that the anti-Catholic aspect would have gone down a storm in the States, as the born-again section of Christian right often seems to give the impression that they think that all Catholics are Statnists...

Perhaps, but those who have read the final book know that God does in fact feature in a massive way, and, Statnists or no Statnists, believers in any monotheistic religion would take umbridge with the events. Quick, read the other two!!!

umbrage at the events. I think Umbridge is a place in the Midlands.

I think there's another really obvious umbrage-attractor in the final book beyond the God stuff, but since there's a lot of ppl who haven't read them I will hold my tongue.

Isn't Umbridge where The Archers live?

I think there's another really obvious umbrage-attractor in the final book beyond the God stuff, but since there's a lot of ppl who haven't read them I will hold my tongue.

Philip Pullman and the Gay Agendar!

No no not even the gay agenda!

I think there's another really obvious umbrage-attractor in the final book beyond the God stuff, but since there's a lot of ppl who haven't read them I will hold my tongue.

Ah yes, I think I know what you're talking about, right near the very end, correct? Wouldn't play too well in the midwest, so I imagine they'll tone it down considerably.

I'm beginning to think I shouldn't check on in this thread again until I've read them all, so to prevent tongue destruction. (A quarter of the way through The Subtle Knife at present.)

"So I dunno, Bob, you think we should play that up given how most of America claims to believe in God?"

i don't mean the movie people playing it up ("this christmas, god's on the wrong side!"), i mean it mostly not being mentioned in das media. it's a nice juicy angle. i expect it'll come up to some extent later, the same way the narnia god-angle did. and then john gibson or some other fox-news guy can try to start a boycott.

"this christmas, god's on the wrong side!"

Oh man, someone fake trailer this.

"IN A WORLD...

WITH A WITCH...

AND A BEAR...

THERE'S ALSO A GIRL.

THIS CHRISTMAS, GOD'S ON THE WRONG SIDE!"

(With Bruce Willis as Lord Asriel.)

Real movie trailer, almost as pompous as you'd imagine. And what's with Oxford looking like Tatooine? And why do children in these movies always have to be really posh? I always pictured her as a bit of a latchkey urchin (even though he uncle is obviously a lord).

And what's with Oxford looking like Tatooine?

I was thinking Coruscant (and surely most of the city shots are of London). Said trailer was linked up above a bit -- I like it, actually! But maybe I would. Yeah, some things seem a bit jarring but the set pieces are all there from what I can tell.

Twenty pages away from finishing The Subtle Knife.

And done, so Amber Spyglass to go. Yeah, this whole shebang is pretty amazing. I'm honestly kinda surprised it became so huge (obv. not Rowling levels but still), but glad it did.

I think I'm going to read The Golden Compass again, only this time with Alex (he's almost 9!). I made him watch the trailer with me this afternoon and he lit up like a little Christmas tree.

And then you cut away his daemon. Meanie.

As for my own -- Kyana the snow leopard, in that I am allegedly softly-spoken, clever, a leader, proud and solitary. Hmm.

Meantime, I don't think anyone's mentioned yet on here how we have Daniel Craig and Eva Green following up Casino Royale together almost a year later, kinda (though obv. more appropriate if she was in the Kidman role).

the trailer looks almost too otm design-wise, but that's not really a complaint. and i have no real problems with the cast (withholding judgment on lyra -- she'll have to convince me in the movie). the tone and pacing will be the key. if i was a betting man i wouldn't bet too heavily on chris weitz, but who knows?

Done. Damn. Not the ending I would have guessed, but the right one it was.

Oh and I did like this from way upthread:

That said, Lee Scoresby = Sam Elliott

-- g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Thursday, August 7, 2003 9:18 AM (3 years ago) Bookmark Link

The power of prediction! (Then again I think Sam Elliott is required to play crusty old Texans by law now.)

More after mental digestion and pondering but you know what the mulefa/wheelie creature world reminded me most of? The first book in Doris Lessing's Canopus in Argos series, Shikasta. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an intentional reference going on.

i read an interview that was done years ago where pullman said he imagined scoresby as sam jackson!

And then you cut away his daemon. Meanie.

My god, Ned, what kind of mother do you think I am?!

Actually, nevermind - don't answer that.

I started reading the first book to Alex tonight. So excited! I suppose this "reading aloud" ritual is going to stop sometime soon, but for now it's still so fun for both of us.

Also I am excited to re-read!

Make sure you do all the voices.

Anyway, noted that what is apparently the big fansite for the whole shebang has some word on the full Cannes footage. A couple of added characters but it'll probably have the advantage of fleshing out the Magesterium's role a bit in the first film. That said, I do like how the books continually amp up and out -- what seemed pretty wide-ranging in the first book ends up darned parochial at the end.

Whoa, this thing is coming up pretty quick, I realized.

Official site features the new trailer. Mostly extensions of what we've seen before but there is a specific change -- Ian McKellen is doing the voice of Iorek (as can readily be heard).

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10242007/gossip/pagesix/nicoles_next_another_turkey_.htm

:-(

dont really trust page six's film criticism.

especially rumours that are as vague and unsourced as possible.

I am almost done with the first book and, to be honest, I don't think it's that great. I don't like Pullman's tendency to switch tenses in the midst of a sentence, and suddenly include in Lyra's inner monologue a universally-addressed "you" as in "Lyra blah blah blah, but you wouldn't ever want to do that..." blah blah blah. It's alright, don't get me wrong. But it is only occasionally INVOLVING (like when she & the kiddies are attempting to escape the kiddie prison.) Also, I think the treatment of the alethiometer could have been more expansive. Pullman seems to have given up on in depth explanations towards the end and instead just gives quick answers. Kind of irritating.

it doesn't get better

yeah, i don't have much interest in reading more.

not to mention the shit with the bear king is TOTALLY unbelievable.
unless i am overestimating the intelligence of a bear.

Punks, both of you.

have you read A Game of Thrones yet, Ned?

x-post -- Although since Remy is probably still in tears over The Dark is Rising's abomination in screen form I forgive him.

I'm rethinking my decision to wait out the conclusion of long series before reading them, given Jordan's inadvertant screwing up of his plans.

what does that have to do with this? have you read it yet?

read game of thrones before the eye of the world. Jordan's series rapidly devolves after the fourth or fifth book. xppp

Didn't I mention this elsewhere, s1ocki? For a long while now I've preferred to wait until series are complete before reading them (there are tons more self-contained things I can and do enjoy reading -- and writing! -- in the meantime).

so, is anne rice still writing those vampire novels? how can you BEAR to wait on those?

;-)

Hahah, THAT'S a train I'm glad I never got fully on (read the first three shortly after the third came out and then got bored -- LIKE ANY SANE PERSON WOULD BE).

imma back ian up 100% on game of thrones, they are a brilliant read.

anyone else try the prince of nothing series?

i actually just started reading this the other day. really enjoyable so far.

....btw, is there a thread on Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell? THAT book fucking rocks.

<I>Prince of Nothing</I>, I admit, really catches my eye. I might just go ahead and take the plunge on that one, plus Steven Erikson's stuff.

Steven Erikson is AWESOME.

Meantime, this Idolator post is prefaced with a bit including my new favorite phrase: "the increasingly fragmented attention economy." That really applies in my case! For instance, I'm gearing up on a long-mooted project with my NaNoWriMo work next month, one I expect to take up a lot of time beyond November. Being able to dip into a single book or standalone ones in a larger framework (like Iain Banks's Culture novels) feels handier for me right now; also, at a certain point I realized, "Wait, the more time I spend getting lost in huge series all over the place, the less time I have to do the writing I want to do!" It's all trade-off in the end, we make the choices we feel best about.

Didn't I mention this elsewhere, s1ocki? For a long while now I've preferred to wait until series are complete before reading them (there are tons more self-contained things I can and do enjoy reading -- and writing! -- in the meantime).

-- Ned Raggett, Wednesday, October 24, 2007 6:03 PM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

but this series is finished! so that's what i wondered.

Oh right, I see the confusion. No, I finally read this trilogy a few months back, my comments are upthread somewhere.

I'm intrigued as to how a His Dark Materials movie sequence will go down in the USA, considering what happens at the end of the trilogy.
-- caitlin (caitlin), Monday, July 7, 2003 3:44 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Link

this is the only reason I'm curious to see the film -- the plot really spins into areas that most of the moral majority will find unacceptable, it's completely unfilmable -- it's beyond the point where they can water it down, it's going to require a lobotomy

don't tempt me into reading the rest of the trilogy.
bad milton, bad caitlin.

it doesn't change in tone, though it does get darker and morally ambiguous. I'd only read it if you have time.

btw, is there a thread on Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell? THAT book fucking rocks

OTMFM. Never read anything quite like it.

Re: ending of His Dark Materials, I don't think it gets morally ambiguous in the end, i think he cops out and goes for a more standard ending. In fact, the entire last book was a major disappointment.

Am I the only person with family and acquaintances religious enough to be sending me forwards warning me of the dangers of seeing this movie - or letting my kids see it? Seriously, I got two today in my email.

(Also, why do people who know me think I identify as a Christian? I don't get it.)

Oooh... what are teh dangerses?

Sara -- send 'em this in turn and tell 'em to fuck off. (Politely.)

Aw, Ned. You know I always say that politely.

Here's the link to the Snopes.com page which contains the email and details of TEH DANGERS:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp

Of course, the ironic part is that this is probably the best word of mouth advertising that the movie could get; a good number of people will see it to see what all the fuss is about.

the churchy backlash was inevitable. i'm surprised they haven't made a bigger deal out of the books before, they've been popular enough in the u.s. i guess the forces of light were too busy fighting harry potter.

I would like the film version to be 2.5 hrs of bears in armor, with Marlon Perkins voiceover.

Sara, send them Pullman's v long interview with the Archbishop of Canterbury and/or tell them to shut the hell up.

The second of two interviews, not sure if the first one is also online.

Sorry, the first occasion wasn't a conversation, it was the Archbishop's address on the subject of religious education.

Just to clarify, Laurel's excellent link was to the last page of the conversation. Here is the start of it. Any hysteria over this book/film should be dispelled by reading this conversation.

So we went to see the film last night, and...

Emma and I really enjoyed it. It wasn't amazing, and nowhere near as good as the books, but considering I think the books are amongst the best I've ever read, to match them is a big ask.

I thought the girl who played Lyra was terrific. Nicole Kidman was very good. They kept all the key elements of the book, both plot and characters. The aesthetic was TERRIFIC, from the 30s style dinner parties to Scoresby's ship to the panserbjorn's armour, I thought it all worked. The electric carriage was particularly cool.

I wish... I guess I wish it had been a little braver and a little more adult; I wish they'd made it twenty minutes longer, given more context to the world, to the Gyptians, had the bit on the fens, not quite telegraphed things as much. The first 30 minutes of the film were SO FAST. I wish they'd upped the scariness / gore a touch too, made it a 12 or a 15A.

But overall, thoroughly enjoyed it, and would go to watch it again on a 2for1 Wednesday, definitely.

I like the previous work of that polar bear in the Coke TV ads.

i have to go see this today for work. lol.

i'm pretty much with scik. it's hard tho if you know the books already.

I am seeing it specifically because of this comment in the NY Times review:

"Despite the pit stops and lovely clutter, some of it visibly influenced by David Lynch’s “Dune,”

that's a WARNING

not to people like me and spencer!

And HI DERE (who is seeing this in 3 hrs, 25 min)!

Bombing at the box office, apparently:

http://www.slashfilm.com/2007/12/08/box-office-golden-compass-disaster-juno-a-record-breaker/

I never ever wanted to see this until I just read that Dune quote.

But I think its not being 3 fucking hours long is kinda commendable.

I think Scik's review absolutely nailed it. Good. But could have been so much more...

The books are amazing.

I'd almost say the best order would be to see the movie, then read all 3 books, then see the sequels (assuming they get made).

The folks I went with who weren't familiar with the book liked it more than I did. I still liked it, though.

Nicole Kidman was great. omg the scene where she slaps her daemon.

Nice euphemism.

is anyone here as annoyed by the ending as every reviewer seems to be (they cut off the end of the book; apparently filmed it but took it out, i assume it'll be on the dvd or used for the opening of the next movie, or put on itunes as a premovie trailer before subtle knife, or some newfangled trick)

I wish whoever posted that snopes thing would have said that there is a MASSIVE SPOILER in the first sentence. Pity as I had another browser open to order the first two books off amazon.

Oh, man, Nicole Kidman's face, watching her try to arch an eyebrow. Cut back on the botox lady.

Cutting out the end was pretty bad, but I thought they stayed truer to the spirit of the book than most reviews led me to believe. Best parts, like the book, were Lyra's relationships with the Gyptians, Scoresby and Iorek.

Now that I know what these books are about I want to read them. I knew it was "some kind of cult following thing," and that's about all I knew. I will probably skip the movie since I don't care for the look of the animal souls that I've seen in clips from it.

Anti-religious children's books. Yesssssss my precious.

xpost- sorry about the spoiler; I'm sure I posted that link (and I know I only skimmed the snopes article). Be assured, though, there is way WAY more interesting material in the books than that; it's almost anticlimactic. (I *think* I know what spoiler you're referring to; it's in the first paragraph, though, not the first sentence, so not entirely sure...?)

My first chance to see this movie is going to be Dec. 16. I really want to go. The mixed reviews people have been giving it make me want to see it even more.

I really enjoyed the movie. Going to read the books now.

can't believe this thread is missing
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/3/e/6/3e621738b7fe09ccb101532a9336f033.jpg

The movie's ultra-mega-feh.

But imagine the pitch to the studios:

"It's Paradise Lost but with bears?"

"In space?"

"No...just bears."

The books are the greatest books written in the history of book writing. At least that's how I felt reading em.

i didn't like the movie, but want there to be more, because i liked the idea of the movie. overseas b.o. more boffo than domestic could help, but probably not.

the movie really bummed me out.

not because it was horrible, but because i felt like they really were in distance of making something really great, something that lived up to the books...the set designs and visual style was perfect, excactly how i imagined.

the girl cast as lyra was brilliant, didn't seem like one of those creepy child actors at all...kidman, james bond, james bond girl as the witch, john faa, farder coram, all great casting...having mckellen be the voice for iorek was a little distracting, but not as bad as i thought...don't really get why they had christopher lee come onscreen for like 3 minutes, i guess they thought more LORT mojo the better.

buuuuut....of course, it wasn't great, only OK, and it's a shame.

biggest thing for me was the movie could have used AT LEAST another hour. it felt terribly frenetic just speeding between plot points. i really like in the book the part where she becomes a part of the gyptian community and the long journey north...that lasted about 10 minutes. you don't really get a feeling for any of the characters.

also they chickened out on so much stuff, not necessarily the church stuff which i expected, but when they find the boy in the shack why did they change the fact that he was clutching a dead, decomposing fish? That made it so vile to me, really got home how terrible it would be to lose your daemon....so many little things like that.

but yes the religion was played down, but i could live with that. what i can't live with is the ending...for shame. ugh. the big thing for me at the end of that book is you realize that azreal is just as ruthless and bad as everyone else, or apparently so at that moment, that it's not just a simple matter of black and white, good guys vs. bad guys....i just reread the book and it's amazing how unlikeable he is throughout the whole thing...but i think his betrayal of lyra at the end is important for the whole series, and to have them just sail off into the sunset defeats the book.

so yep overall, i don't mean to be a trainspotter, i was more than okay with many of the things that jackson changed/left out in LOTR...because i felt that it was a filmmaker whose motivation was to make the best possible LOTR film he could...this felt like a filmmmaker who had the studio and the marketing dept in his ear saying "oh well you know we can't have it be too long" ...."We can't get into a religious controversy"..."We can't have daniel craig seem like a bad guy"...

shame, too, because weitz really did a number of things well, i'd be curious to read an interview w/him and i wonder how much he clased with the studio...i know that mckellen was forced on him, that was not his choice....

I just saw this and I thought it really sucked. :( A real shame, since I thought the cast were fantastic, and the design and look was pretty much perfect. There just didn't seem to be any real resolution - everything was simply skimmed over way too quickly.

I think this would have worked much better as a mini-series rather than a movie because so many things weren't properly established, like the importance of the daemon and why it was so bad to separate a child from theirs. I saw this with my sister who has never read the books and she was either bored or completely confused by the various characters, many of whom appeared for less than 10 minutes tops. But it did make her want to read the books - only because it was clear this was a good story being told at breakneck speed.

When my wife and daughter came out of the theater and said "...well...it was good..." I was pretty shocked and knew it had to be bad. If it had lived up to any of their expectations, they would have been squeeing like crazy.

Director's cut needed

All you folks who LOVE the books (like me) might want to read the best (adult) sci/fantasy series of all time The Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe. Yes, it's better than Tolkien or Pullman or Herbert. Thank me later.

Holy shit... I think I read that...

Wolfe's pretty damn great, no question.

i liked those gene wolfe books a lot. they were pretty weird. i never read past the first 4, i think there were more.

this movie had its heart in the right place but still managed to be almost completely terrible.

SPOILAZ!

milo upthread OTM -- the plottier adventure parts of the story were by far the most intoxicating parts of the trilogy (everything about <i>Golden Compass</i>, when Will and Lyra recover the alethiometer in <i>Subtle Knife</i> -- awesomes!), and while I have to admire the ballsiness of the its anti-church bias, it stacks the deck too neatly against religion -- curious, since the bad guy(s) in the work that inspired HDM is extremely morally equivocal. If I had to identify a shark-jumping point, it was two-thirds of the way through <i>Subtle Knife</i>, when the story just became Will & Lyra walking forever, and Will losing blood.

And OTM x 1000000 about Lyra gradually transforming into a weepy & clutchy broad after <i>TGS</i>, very dispiriting since she started out as such a compelling spitfire in vol. 1. Also very ;_; that from vol. 2 on, she barely got to lie, and when she did, she was immediately punished for it.

Totally didn't realize that the decrepit angel getting eated by ghasts was the Authority until I read this very thread! I ar dum!

I'm on my second read through of these, this time aloud to my son. He's entranced by them; I'd wondered if he was too young (he's 8, but he's kind of a mature 8), but we'd already finished all the Harry Potters and needed to move on to something else. Haven't let him watch the disappointing film yet, maybe I won't.

BBC TV adaptation!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2015/his-dark-materials

Exciting.

nice, I hope there's an opportunity to see these in the US

I re-read these over the summer, they were still great despite bogging down a bit in book 3

Could be good, the beeb have been doing well with literary adaptations of late.

On a similar note, is their version of Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell worth a watch?

thank good, the film was a botched opportunity.

Anyone check out The Book Of Dust: La Belle Sauvage yet?

i finished last night and I didn't fall head over heels in love with it like I did Northern Lights, but it was engrossing, especially towards the end. Malcolm was always an interesting character to follow, even if his adventures were a bit repetitive until the flood came. Pullman really knows how to capture the thoughts, languages, and feelings of a kid, even after all these years. The image of creeping religious authoritarianism in schools really resonated with me given current events. It was cool to see younger versions of characters like Asriel and Mrs. Coulter, and seeing how their characterizations conflicted with the characters we saw in HDM. No spoilers, but I think if the old trilogy was about exploring the magic of the North and traveling to other worlds, the new one will focus on the magic that governs Oxford and Britain, along with the continuing fight for intellectual liberty in Lyra's world.

I read a couple weeks ago, was totally absorbed in it though looking back at it the pacing is super weird and Malcolm’s back-and-forth spy adventures are pretty repetitive. Not as great as Northern Lights but he’s still excellent at describing people discovering the world around them. Was caught off-guard by the more mythical elements, fairy food and so forth - they didn’t seem as well integrated as the armored bears and witches in the original trilogy; and there’s something v ugly implied near the end that seems to be weirdly not followed up on. Thought it was funny how much Pullman mentions characters needing to pee, change diapers, etc. But it’s great immersing oneself back into that world, I’ll def read the next one.

Was caught off-guard by the more mythical elements, fairy food and so forth - they didn’t seem as well integrated as the armored bears and witches in the original trilogy

It was a more "realistic" book overall than either of the first three--despite the presence of daemons, it felt more speculative than fantasy for about the first 2/3s of the book. I think part of the reason the tone was strange was just because Malcolm was the single most unflappable 11-year-old anyone has ever met. He took every single mythical interaction in stride and somehow always knew exactly what to do. That was true of Lyra in the original books, but it was always implied that she was a girl of extraordinary talents, while Malcolm seemed to be clever, but more ordinary.

Still, looking forward to the next book

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yuIE1OYnVI

Yes!

... unless they mess up the anti-religion stuff. Then I meant No!

Has anyone read The Secret Commonwealth yet? I have one chapter to go and I think it's Pullman's best yet. I really enjoyed La Belle Sauvage, but this is next level. I've found some of it very emotionally difficult to deal with.

I didn't even realize it was out until I went and explicitly looked it up. Just got it yesterday, looking forward to it.

Just read it. Really liked most of the travel narrative and think he's overall done a very good job of writing Lyra as a 20-year-old with a lot of traumatic experiences in her past. I didn't buy the business about the book, though - we're told that it's affected her thinking and personality but I don't see any actual evidence of it.

I thought of the book(s) as - not quite maguffins, but almost the opposite of maguffins? Like Lyra had changed for a multitude of reasons - not least separation from Pan and the trauma thereof - plus just general ageing and social changes, and the book(s) were almost scapegoats, things that Pan had picked up on and fixated about as being the causes, whereas reading them and identifying with them was more of a symptom of the general direction she was heading in. Like they described her condition rather than causing it.

I think the book Pan hates is akin to Jordan Peterson’s type of reductive, sneering faux-intellectualist blather. Lyra’s acceptance of it is especially galling to her daemon because she, uniquely, has proof of the depth of the Secret Commonwealth due to her childhood experience. Also, I’m a little squicked by Malcolm’s infatuation with her.

Whoa, I had no idea that Pullman extended the HDM stories! Do I need to read the other ones before I get started on the new trilogy?

Probably yes.

I’d read in chronological order? Belle Sauvage, OT, Secret Commonwealth, next one?

I think I’d choose publication order. A lot is revealed about how lyra’s world works in the original trilogy that isn’t explained in La Belle Sauvage.

yeah I think reading La Belle Sauvage first would be confusing.

Might do for a reread of the OT then, it's been a while.

Working my way through commonwealth and it’s really engaging so far. Only on chapter 8 or so, but it’s hitting me hard already.

The human/daemon relationship is endlessly fascinating, honestly, I could read an encyclopedia about it if Pullman we’re willing to write it lol

So, who watched episode one?

Thoughts?

Halfway through. It's pretty good, feels like it's just not for me though.

I don't really get the plot, or why I would care about any of the characters. The anti-religious stuff is very obvious, though.

Seems reasonably true to the book but I haven't read it in 10 years or something.
Trying to work out what falls within this series.
Seeing the summary on some tv listing as 2 children travel through multiple dimensions or some similar paraphrase. & I thought they didn't before the 2nd book.

Want to read the new books.

Like the look of the series anyway. Though somewhat jarred by the vehicle used to transport baby Lyra at the start seemed to be a 50s or 60s looking helicopter after which they jump forward 12 years to airships. I thought they basically had 30s level technology on the starting world if that from what I remembered from the books.

"I don't really get the plot, or why I would care about any of the characters." I take it you haven't read the books then?

No one is particularly likable aside from Lyra.

I got irrationally annoyed whenever I couldn’t see a character’s daemon. I mean sure it could’ve been hiding in a pocket or something, but idk, Pullman always goes out of his way to let us know what form a character’s daemon takes—it’s a literal window into their souls

After one episode there's either not much plot, or else fucking loads - someone is stealing children; this guy has discovered 'dust'; dust lets you see alternate dimensions; girl is somehow implicated and starts on a journey.

Not seeing everyone's daemon perturbed me slightly too, but only slightly. There's a lot in the latest book about people who don't have daemons, and how you can just tell they don't have one even if it's not visibly apparent, the inference from which I took was that a lot of people's are small animals that sit in pockets a lot of the time, so I wasn't too fussed.

Pullman's been involved as executive producer hasn't he, and has certainly given full blessing to this version, so the helicopter (gyropter!) intrigued me rather than seeming anachronistic. I don't think it's as simple as them having pretty much 1930s technology - they've obviously just got different levels of tech in all sorts of different directions. Some of it magic!

I thought it was pretty good. Lyra a lot posher than I imagined her, but I guess she did grow up in an Oxford college! The actress' performance is a little odd, but maybe she'll grow on me. Rest of the cast and design and pacing seemed decent.

My partner who's never read the books loved it, so that's a good sign.

Trying to work out what falls within this series.

Pretty sure it'll just be book 1, particularly as casting for Will hasn't been announced.

No one is particularly likable aside from Lyra.

Not sure this is true? Been a decade since I read them, but Will and Lee Scoresby spring to mind.

I was thinking the actress was teh same girl as Eleven from Stranger tHings when i first saw her face in publicity material.
Is that just a type for this year or something.
Seemed like years ago you would have a lot of somewhat lookalike actresses turning up in films at the same time following the appearance of an actress that was deemed somewhat iconic or hip for that year who they semi resembled. Like Faye Dunaway being followed by clones or whatever.

The girl is Wolverine.

hugh jackman is such a chameleon

a lot of people's are small animals that sit in pockets a lot of the time, so I wasn't too fussed.

yes i thought of this too. but there should be more dogs, dammit!

I liked it. I'm glad it steered clear of all-out exposition but I did have to stop and explain a couple of things to my kids (13 & 11). It generally looked great with a couple of bits of old school Saturday evening telly thrown in, but that's fine.

I tried watching the film before and I don't think I got much farther than Lyra leaving with Mrs. Coulter, or if I did I don't remember. This is already much better IMO.

the only thing the film has over the series so far is that Nicole Kidman was pretty much a quintessential Coulter.

Yeah thought she was more of a siren or whatever.
This one might be ok but I think I have her in the back of my mind.

I quite like Ruth Wilson and her weird mouth even if I do keep expecting her to stab someone in the neck any moment.

Yeah I meran she could be great if I didn't already have an image of the previous actress. May be something I can overcome and will be something that people who didn't see the film won't have to deal with.

Did they start the film thinking they were going to do other parts of the trilogy then not do well at the box office or something?

Also the actor playing Roger has a small part in The Aeronauts. Liked that film a bit not sure how many people would.

Yes, the theatrical release performed poorly. There were issues with budget during production. It also faced a TON of (stateside) criticism on grounds of anti-religious sentiment.

The film is a mess, but it's casting was pretty perfect across the board. The actors they've found for the TV show don't appear to be such obvious fits for their parts, but I'd like to see what they do with it.

ruth wilson is a pretty impressive coulter so far, but mcavoy seems slightly miscast. he's a fine actor, but not an imposing physical presence, and he can't quite achieve the type of haughty, cold, egomania that daniel craig radiates even when he's trying not to.

This is doing loads right. Some properly tense moments, particularly the golden monkey slapping down Pan. I like how uhurried they've allowed it to be, though I could do without the thread of the magestirium bloke going into our world (not in the book iirc?). Still not entirely convinced by Dafne Keen, her accent is a bit distractingly odd. All other performances are excellent.

It's all a bit flat and characterless for me, the set and costume design is too shiny and ersatz, and McAvoy is boring. Reminds me a bit of the Good Omens show - it only really works as a victory lap for megafans.

As mentioned upthread, my partner is really into it and she's never read the books so that's not 100 percent true.

The design is maybe not as stunning or interesting as it could have been, but it does the job fine imo.

mcavoy seems slightly miscast. he's a fine actor, but not an imposing physical presence, and he can't quite achieve the type of haughty, cold, egomania that daniel craig radiates even when he's trying not to.

That was my feeling as well. He comes off as a bit too cuddly, even when he's threatening to break Lyra's arm. That he's wearing a sweater for his big Dust presentation doesn't help.

My main concern so far is that Lyra doesn't seem to have the picaresque trickster quality that she has in the books. Sure, she tears around the rooftops doing parkour like any other literary tomboy, but I haven't seen her telling any wild stories or starting wars with the gyptians or doing anything characteristically Lyra yet. And the bit where she almost refused to take the alethiometer because she didn't want to keep secrets was wildly out of character. I'm sure they're planning a character arc where she grows into the Lyra we know, but I hope it happens soon.

IT's been a while since i read the trilogy but I was trying to remember if there was a suggestion in one of the 2nd 2 books that there had been some interdimensional sliding going on other thna the main protagonists. I know its not introduced until the end of the first book at least and probably not before the beginning of the 2nd. BUt did wonder if this guy who's already doing it might tie in to some point later in the trilogy that might as well be introduced at this point.

Pretty sure that character just shows up later in the books.

I was just thinking there might have been some suggestion taht they had some history of slipping between dimensions so might have been doing it at this point.
& reason that it wasn't encountered in the book is that pullman hadn't thought of him while writing first book but when he expanded for later volumes he introduced him and a past history of him. BUt has been a while since I read the trilogy.

Pretty sure he's already been mentioned in the show.

if we're talking about lord boreal, yes he's a castmember and already showed up in episode 1

Was actually thinking of Grumman, but yes, Boreal too.

Nobody slides between universes this early in the actual books, Not sure if people were sliding outside the periphery of the books at the time shown in the first book. Or if anybody might have been shown from later actions to be doing so but outside of the books depiction.
JUst pretty sure taht there were other people sliding than the 2 protagonists.
First book mainly concentrates on actions around Lyra following her kidnapped friend and a couple of underhanded adults to the nOrth which is the springboard into the later pair of books activity. BUt can't remember if other sliders were doing so for first time following the protagonist pair or if they might have been seen to having been doing so for a while before which would mean this chronology with lord boreal wasn't necessarily out of step with what happened in the books, just hadn't been looked at in the remit of the first book at least.

Lord Boreal appears briefly in the first book, but we don't learn that he's spent a long time in our world until the second book.

I was a big fan of the books but couldn’t make it through half an hour of the new series. Once the kids started singing some weak-ass song we shut it off.

Right Moodles that was what I was wondering. So it does make some sense to show him sliding at this point since his activity may be needed to set things up for later.
& they've changed the structure from a trilogy of books with one or 2 main protagonists to a series in a different medium where sub plots and more peripheral characters are equally important.

I haven't seen the TV show yet, but it seems like showing that early on kind of abandons the big reveal of Will's world later, which I thought was one of the cooler twists in the books.

Yeah quite probably. But may have a reason since different medium. Have to make some sacrifices etc. I hope they know what they're doing. Has been quite good so far.

I haven't seen the TV show yet, but it seems like showing that early on kind of abandons the big reveal of Will's world later, which I thought was one of the cooler twists in the books.

This is my feeling too (MINOR SPOILERS), the switch without warning to the mundanity of our own world at the beginning of book 2 was jarring in a good way.

Wonder if the translation into a different medium was part of consideration. So experience of the punter would be different.
This does have different structure because of elements like that and cannot be following quite the same arc as the books. Not sure what other elements have been reordered as yet.
But do think things like that change quite frequently in that changing of media. Ones encounter with a book is different to one's encounter with a screened image and difference between variations of the latter can be significant I think.

We’re watching this, have no familiarity with the books, enjoying it so far.

I have no recollection of this “weak ass song” from episode one. Episode two was pretty good. I hear ratings dropped off horribly on the BBC

Drag, haven't heard how far they've currently got the go ahead to go. Is this going to be another partial adaptation.
I don't know what could re-interest a general public if they're already losing interest.
Have liked this so far so would like to see it finished at least to a coherent end point even if it doesn't get all the way through the trilogy.

Also don't know how far ahead they are, the point that has been filmed to. Is this going to be something that has complete series already filmed before first episode was shown?
& if foreign markets might lap it up more than the domestic one?

Although it lost viewers it was still the most watched show on tv in the UK at that time slot

A mate works next to Bad Wolf studios in Cardiff and he says they've knocked up lots of Italian looking buildings out of chipboard so assuming that's for Cittàgazze from the second book (which i guess could make an earlier appearance now?)

Second season has already been commissioned (but assume that could change if ratings do completely fall off a cliff)

The third book is my least favourite, but also the one I'm most interested in seeing an adaptation of

We’re watching this, have no familiarity with the books, enjoying it so far.

Read the books instead! They're great, easy to read, better than the tv show

Going to be charitable and believe that the jumpy messy pacing of episode 3 is an homage to the messy movie.

just read the books this week

that guy really hates christianity huh

Once the kids started singing some weak-ass song we shut it off.

LOL when that bit happened I was immediately reminded of Byron and his hippy Telepath crew from Babylon 5.

so my son hates this adaptation because he finds the writing really terrible. I half agree; some of the dialogue is way overly expository and unrealistic. c'mon bbc. Other than that I'm enjoying it.

also this Coulter has finally won me over and made me stop wishing it was Nicole Kidman again. She was pretty scary and fierce in this last episode.

I'm simultaneously glad they're taking their time over telling the story and fed up with all the 'people in rooms' aspect of the exposition. Tonight was probably the best episode because something actually seemed to be happening. They've done a good job with Iorek.

fed up with all the 'people in rooms' aspect of the exposition.

Yep a lot of the non-Lyra stuff seems like filler. I'm starting to wish they'd done a 6 rather than 8 part adaptation and left those secenes out.

Peak levels of “where the fuck is that person’s daemon” in this episode

In their jacket pocket.

i get that they need to save money for armored bears, but when you have a scene about how only witches can separate from their daemons, maybe include the non-witches' daemons in the scene somewhere?

otherwise, this was probably the best episode yet, and the one where it felt like dafne keen really figured out what lyra is all about.

Still think she's a but too restrained and well spoken.

When are we going to find out how the bearded guy got the nickname Farter?

Good episode last night, maybe the one I've enjoyed most yet. or felt most emotionally affected by - found the scenes with ghost Billy really powerful. Plus Will Parry! Properly introduced, with dialogue and everything. But no knife yet.

i like ruth wilson as mrs coulter: she's very good at inhabiting the border between drop-dead charming kick-ass and bad damaged/insane (she is amazing at all this in luther when she first appears, even if they had no idea where to take her in later series, so the casting is almost lazy -- but it's fun also, so hurrah)

i agree that lyra really needed more dido twite (or little my) in her from the outset -- more chaotic glee -- but i like dafne keen's reading all the same: a key point of the character is that she's right at the borderland between child and adult, and she inhabits this very well.

the look of this show is tremendous: sets and costumes, lots of thought put in there -- but the real weakness (and i think it's also the reason lyra doesn't read very clearly very quickly) is that they don't put much work into the dynamics and feel social groups, once the costumes are sorted. the gyptains, the magisterium, the incision scientists, the witches, and so on: as groups they're all a bit flat. each group needs more of a charged stereotype to work with and against -- the way they talk, move, they way they fit together, their energy as an ensemble. the gyptians are probably the least interesting: i can understand why the direction's held back from stereotyping, it's not as if this been a help for travellers and roma socially lo these tens of centuries, but drama isn't improved by tiptoeing, and i don't believe there's no way out from under this conundrum

Ep 7 kind of bleh

Listening to the audiobook of La Belle Sauvage, and its really fucking well done.

I should check it out. I'm not a big audiobook fan, but they did an amazing job with the Dark Materials series. All the voice actors were perfect, and contrasted nicely with Pullman's mellow narration.

I liked episode 7. My mate was playing the crazy dude in the prison with Lyra. He done good. I think they've done a great job with the bears.

I'm not sure they've handled the mixing of worlds very well. Episode 7 and we're none the wiser as to how the worlds are aligned, which seems negligent.

Episode 8 smashed it. Really looking forward to s2 now.

will’s earth has been terribly pointlessly strung out. i thought it be dramatically acceptable but now i’m convinced they should have followed the books.

Yes, I agree. Or they at least should have waited until, say, the penultimate episode to introduce that storyline.

I don't know that there's a good solution to the Will problem, because wherever you put his storyline, it's always going to be terribly boring. I thought it was smart to get all the introductory stuff over early and have him and Lyra walking into the Cittagazze world at the same time, but I agree it got distracting to be constantly cutting back to Will's world where absolutely nothing of interest is happening.

Thought the real weak point of this series was Serafina Pekkala. Every scene she was in was astonishingly terrible. I started cringing in embarrassment every time she teleported in.

no i think they made the wrong decision. in the second book PP gets him to cittagazze v quickly. it takes ten episodes in the tv series.

Yeah but this way the next season doesn't have to start with this boring storyline about a kid who's not Lyra. And it probably lessens resentment toward Will if we know him from the beginning. Agree they spent too much time on it though.

Could easily be a single episode at the start of season 2. I'm kind of bummed they did it like this, his introduction in book 2 is one of my favorite parts of the series.

agreed on serafina btw. and also on mark’s point about communities. the gyptians are dull af.

Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2019 season is nominated in the 2019 ILX TV poll:

ILX's Best Television of 2019 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends January 31

If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (4 minimum, 25 maximum, organized by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail by end of day today. It'll take five minutes; get to it!

I'm about four fifths of the way through La Belle Sauvage and it's FINALLY getting kind of interesting. What an annoyingly structured novel - this interminable, often dull build up, then after the big event eventually happens everything feels rushed and underwritten. Might be a Rowling-esque case of a writer getting too big for an editor to reign in.

I have heard that the second one is better.

The second one is a lot more adventuresome and less stately, if that’s your preference, but I enjoyed both. I sort of agree about the lack of editing, but they’re both a breeze to read, and better written (clearly) than Rowling, so I found their maximalism luxurious rather than tiring, even though Secret Commonwealth gets a little generic in places.

That said, I don’t think he’s written a better book in the series than the very first one, Northern Lights. But the last two were both (for me) more fun than Subtle Knife and Amber Spyglass (which might be the worst book in the series imo)

And Secret Commonwealth’s buildup is even longer iirc!

but they’re both a breeze to read

See I found the first two thirds of Belle Sauvage a bit of a slog!

I agree Northern Lights remains his peak. So richly atmospheric, and just a great story.

In that case I’m definitely interested in hearing what you think of Secret Commonwealth! It does share (consciously, I think) the “on a journey” aspect of Northern Lights. There’s more old-fashioned suspense than the books inbetween.

(but you might find it a colossal bore, too)

I don’t think he’s written a better book in the series than the very first one, Northern Lights. But the last two were both (for me) more fun than Subtle Knife and Amber Spyglass (which might be the worst book in the series imo)

I agree with this. So far the new series hasn't reached the heights of The Golden Compass/Northern Lights for me, but I do find it much more consistent.

The plot structure of La Belle Sauvage made me wonder if maybe Pullman had been watching Night of the Hunter.

Oh yes, good shout!

I imagine I'll be reading the Secret Commonwealth eventually.

Secret Commonwealth is my favorite of *all* his books.

i'm liking the pre/se-quel trilogy a lot, especially how it's exploring lyra's world. he did such a great job building the world in northern lights, and while i'm glad pullman decided to set off into the multiverse, i'm glad that the new trilogy is taking the time to marinate in the society and the mystery of the world.

really loved the *spoiler* papal assassination scene *spoiler* in the secret commonwealth, the way it wove in the sly, character-based humor to undercut the horrific action.

I don’t remember much about it, to be honest - there’s a surgery sequence that’s pretty existing and twisty iirc

One not-very-serious flaw - there’s a lot of stuff about how unusual it is for daemons and humans to split - then it seems like everyone’s doing it

that feels less like an inconsistency in the storytelling than the scales dropping from lyra's eyes–another "taboo" that her authoritarian theocratic society wants to pretend doesn't exist.

A taboo and a minority group - the kind that's treated as invisible but becomes a lot more visible if you happen to be part of it.

right, and that's a metaphor that pullman makes clear when lyra meets the refugee girl who lost her daemon.

Ah that makes sense

I just finished season 1 of the HBO adaptation. The first bunch of episodes were a bit dispiriting, with so many corny moments. I understand wanting to show various side plots instead of focusing in Lyra, but I would've preferred sticking with the book's structure. Lin-Manual Miranda was a particularly bad call. I was also not excited about starting the Will plot in S1, but it ended up making sense overall. The show was really redeemed in the last few episodes, which went much darker, and the finale ended on a pleasingly ambiguous note.

im cautiously optimistic for season 2, despite a trailer that seemed to be deliberately obfuscatory

love ruth wilson so much

(s2e1 dropped)

She does sadistic almost *too* well.

finally got round to s2e2

Not feeling this season yet. Both kids’ acting was pretty poor throughout.

Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2020 season is nominated in the 2020 ILX TV poll:

ILX's Best Television of 2020 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends After January 29, 2021

If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (3 minimum, 25 maximum, ranked by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail. It'll take five minutes; get to it!

finished season 2 the other day! i thought it was a big improvement on season 1 (especially in the daemon department, aka the most important department) while still feeling like it's missing something essential and ineffable that the books had. it seems like they're neutering the "killing god" aspect of the books, which might make season 3 very weird, and they've totally messed up scoresby and the witches. but they've got the will/lyra relationship down, and ruth wilson is transfixing even as she's completely different from my conception of the character from the books lol

Lin-Manual Miranda is terrible in this!

horrifically miscast, it’s true

Season 3 is 2 episodes in - one of the Belgian reviewers called this whole series "probably the best fantasy series ever"

I will probably watch the last season, but I found season 2 to be a bit dull

waiting with bated breath for the final book of dust book lol, but i will def check out this season. i have absolutely no idea how they're gonna manage to adapt this final book, but i am intrigued to see how they fail

it's years since i read these and i remember book three as hurried -- this version has a measured pace to it that is maybe righting that?

just got a massive goosebumps moment so that's a 👍🏽

sadly it involved lin-manuel miranda 👎🏽

Didn’t watch the first season past a couple episodes as it seemed to be sticking to the original book so closely, and because I wasn’t enjoying McAvoy and the Lyra actress

Super curious to see this season though - thought the third book was disappointing but I’m interested to see how they do the final battle and God and the wheely creatures and whatnot

I enjoyed in the 3rd book how the literal actual death of god was like a passing thing buried in the middle of a paragraph and you might have missed it.

It was the same in the show I now realise. There was this very brief scene with a large crystal cube that has a person/angel curled up in it that they disintegrated. I didnt understand what it was but I do now.

the wheely creatures look a bit too like if snorky from the banana splits turned up in avatar -- and the rush through the plot-points is beginning to arrive: mary's discovery of the amber lens seemed both too easy and under-explained

its various settings are still great and i feel that dafne keen has grown into the role and the character now that lyra (like keen) is a little older

ruth wilson remains MVP

iorek byrnison giving mcavoy a richly deserved hard time lol

claws shd have been out tho

the battle in heaven was p well realised IMO, tho it also makes you realise how dr who-ish the steampunky dimension of this story can get -- like the story will be resolved when who (or whoever) gets to press a red button on the head villain's dash which reads "my evil universe-transforming plan into explodey ruins"

(does the book use the term "mutiverse"? it's not wrong exactly but i was wincing every time azrael said it)

one ep to go

Of what I remember, Asriel & Mrs Coulter's motives get increasingly confusing in the last book, like they're two characters from an old Gossip Girl episode whose motivations change on a dime, just because plot

in that case -- as my memory of the book is v spotty (i suspect bcz flaws in book but also a long time since i read it) -- the TV show handles this with rather more clarity even when their motivation is intensely conflicted (towards lyra, towards one another). with her especially -- more thx to ruth wilson than philip pullman maybe? -- we have learned always to read everything she does thru a "things not as they seem" filter. metatron is amusingly rude abt her to her face ("you are a cess-pit of moral filth") but she is NOT AT ALL BOTHERED and her face just says "i know you are but what am i"

Really enjoyed the whole series of this. The Amber Spyglass was prob my least favourite of the books and I did wonder how some things could possibly work on screen, but they pulled it off. Both young leads loads better in the last season. Not a spoiler, but the visuals for the physical battle in heaven and plunging fall were absolutely stunning.

anyone start reading the last book of dust book? i'm gonna crack it open today

i totally forgot that it came out. need to go pick it up this weekend.

I am nearly at the end and really enjoying it. OK Pullman is hammering the metaphysical points home with jackhammer but it’s cracking story and he’s really nailing the dramatic moments.

And Michael Sheen is a cracking narrator for the audiobook.

yea i'm about a quarter of the way through and enjoying so far. tho i am bored by malcolm so far, hopefully he gets better

finishing up the rose field, it feels like pullman saved a lot for this last book, and while it's very interesting from moment to moment, i am nearly done and the conclusion doesn't feel as grand as the amber spyglass, which for all its faults, definitely felt like the epic final chapter to a world-changing saga. this story is both bigger and smaller, with very good spycraft moments and metaphysical stuff, but way too much "will i or won't i?" dithering on lyra's part. he also killed off a beloved character from the his dark materials trilogy off-screen in a way i felt was very callous.

still, excited to finish this weekend. i still love spending time in pullman's worl

I thought this roughly followed the pattern of the first series

Book 1 - Rattling adventure yarn, almost a standalone, solid cliffhanger

Book 2 - Broadens the story out, while keeping focus on the main characters, who never quite behave as we expect them to expecting, thrillingly

Book 3 - A big old mess