"She's out of your league".

or, to put it another way, some people have more options than others. supply and demand

I wonder if people who pull other people a few leagues above consider themselves giant-killers.

It comes back to whether similarly attractive people 'match up'. Research has shown that yes, they do tend to, but that it's not a strong enough correlation for anyone to use the 'out of my league' thing as an excuse. I know that many people on ILE refuse to accept any non-subjective ranking of beauty anyway. I was going to say 'attractiveness' instead of 'beauty', but that would be too ambiguous maybe.

The problem with the match up theory for me is that I find it hard to accept the notion of all these 'unattractive' people choosing similarly unattractive partners. Or rather, not hard to accept, but just confusing. Is it supposed to be all unconscious, or do people actually find people other than their partner far more beautiful, but just think 'ho hum, that's not for the likes of me'? If the latter, what do their partners think about this? If the former, that's sweet.

Nick: "She's out of my league."
Nick's Mum: "No she isn't, precious."
Nick's Brother: "Yes she is you fucking idiot!"
Nick: "Oh woe is me! Lament lament lament..."

The few times I've approached a girl I had assumed to be "out of my league" I've been pretty successful.

Now for a real conversation;

Emma's Gran-in-law: "Nick's not very handsome, is he? Emma's so pretty; she could do much better."
Emma: *gurn gurn gurn*

Beggars can't be choosers

(has any 'unattractive' person ever used this as part of his/her seduction routine?)

The idea that anyone I've gone out with considers me the most beautiful person in the world is laughable to me. If you would like me to tell you how I feel about that, I will. It seems linked but separate from the 'league' thing to me.

I think it's all part of the same thing. I never said the date (let's forget the word 'date' - drunken snog, whatever) was based on purely physical attraction. Just that there might be a hurdle there. One might well think "Hmm, I like him, he makes me laugh and I enjoy being with him but he's just too ugly/scrawny/short/hairy to fancy".

My broad feeling was that if someone had chosen to spend that much time around me then they must be seeing something in me that made them happy in one way or another, that as a package it was far enough on the right side of OK to be worth it.

You know, if you're around someone you love you can generally tell when they're happy: them being happy can be justification in itself.

NB. you are a soppy git.

"I find other people far more beautiful than him" != "I can't fancy him"

You were soppy too once, before the internet hardman thing happened.

I know! Did I say it was? I was just saying that people might well find it hard to fancy someone who didn't match up to a certain level of looks/body shape whatever. I feel like I'm painting myself into some 'shallowest man in Britain' contest here, but I really don't think I'm being that controversial.

Incidentally, it definitely applies to areas other than physical attractiveness. I feel people are out of my league all the time, because of the jobs they have. I know that's crappy, but I do. Post boys definitely aren't supposed to go out with directors. I'm not a post boy, but you know what I mean. That bothers me. Our post boy's great btw, but I don't fancy him. Actually he's more of a post man, but you couldn't call him a postman.

Some day I will explain the 'internet hard man' thing to you in private, Tim.

There should be a "Paint the Shallowest Man in Britain" contest in which young aesthetes paint lovely pictures of N. sitting in a corner.

Yes there are two distinct points:

#1 the bar one
#2 what's it's like to find other people better looking (more attractive?) than one's partner

Geoff - I'm glad I'm not the only one.

My love don't cost a thing.

this is all good stuff - with a stranger I reckon you make a snap judgement in about .00001 of a second about whether they're in yr league. It's based on what they look like, since that's all you have to go on, and a snap judgement of what you think someone who looks like that will be like , what job they'll do and what they'll be interested in etc. This will always be wrong but you do it anyway. I *like* doing it. my wife is out of my league anyway

Also, when you are going out with someone temporarily in a different league is this known as a cup-run? And is there more prestige in the national League or in international competition?

Anyway. Actually, I am totally out of his league, rereading this. He's sooooo right.

Going back on topic, I reckon out of your league means that the persons criteria for selecting a partner rule you out totally, of course this is often a snap decision you make based on only a brief knowledge of them and I agree that it could precipitate its own validity if you're particularly determined to be negative.

Sometimes though "out of your league" just means you're not even on the same wavelength as the person and a mutual attraction seems totally unlikely, despite you wishing there was one. This is the centre of the debate here perhaps, some people can see someone and simply from how they look concoct a mental ideal of how that person might be. Others don't do this.

How many people here have been in more relationships where physical attraction briefly made up for lack of intellectual attraction than vice versa? *sheepishly raises hand*

'Out of your league' is a good game to play with friends, I find. A bit of callous shallow while you walk around town. And I think it really only works (gets played?) with strangers. Well, actually of course it 'works' with people you know but I'm not sure league placings should be voice unless in acknowledged jokey spirit.

(What if you don't know what you're looking for? Beyond surface into depth, that is. Trial and error asking 'attractive' people out is frightening and exciting and a way to make a life. Mind you, after doing it, you may not be able to buy the deep blue Converse trainers from Sauchiehall St's Schuh anymore. This is perhaps an alternative thread which I don't feel could bear the weight of being started: 'asking 'strangers' ie people you are attracted to but know nothing about out: C or D or Possible?'.)

I feel like the pinefox again.

For me, what the guy looks like matters less than if our personalities complement each other: if he could match me in a discussion/argument and we can make each other understand different points of view, that's important. Humor is always a major plus, as well as an interesting attitude.

I no longer know where this thread is going but I fear it has already arrived without me. < /the pinefox>

We can all be shallow though, this is true. I wasn't implying that I somehow had better ideals than Ro. I suppose if someone appeals to me on shallow levels my mind/libido will build up other parts of their attractiveness to the correct levels. For example if someone has lots of tattoos and is a musician my mind will find a way to make nearly anything else about them forgivable.

I think it is healthy to see oneself as a 'big club' languishing the Nationwide Division One. Maybe even a Tottenham. Not Real Madrid though, that would be ridiculous.

As I have said elsewhere, it is a good idea to work from the assumption that everyone finds you attractive.

Here's the league I'm in!

Walking into somewhere with the assumption everyone fancies you is ass because it doesn't really make you try very hard to be a better person, I don't think.

Indeed it doesn't, but if you don't see there is a problem, you can't fix it. I certainly know better than to believe everyone fancies me, though it is a pleasant surprise if I find out I'm wrong and that someone does. To my mind, being a better person = eminently fanciable.

(FWIW I'm not just talking about your posts when I said that and it was a serious question--how do people come to these conclusions, some people you see and they're awesome and they think themselves shit and other people are just not that special at all but come off like they think they are 10 out of 10, how did either side convince themselves of their theories)

Hrrrm. I don't know if this conversation should continue along these lines because it will be a start of circle jerk compliments.

"How can she be that great if she's dating me?" Awful. Some people never get over this.

N., do you have any links to these studies? I saw one on tv that the highest rated "attractive" people were the ones who were the most averaged out among a pile of photos, which seems weird to me.

What do you mean by 'the most averaged out'? Do you mean the thing about faces that are the most symmetrical and with the most 'average' nose size, lips shape etc being the most attractive? Yeah, that's another body of research. I agree it's kind of weird but I can see how it could be so.

(not an image link)

Does this possibly reveal the limitation of these studies anyway: I mean each individual ranks these people, right. So the more individual a face is, the more likely it is to polarize a viewer, like someone might rank them a 10, another a 1. A bland face might get a 6 from everyone, but that average 6 would make them the "winner" over the ones that might've gotten better scores but there was a far bigger variety of opinion on them.

People all like different things shockah, why don't I just become an anthropologist already with my shocking sitdownforit knowledge.

(sits in happy contemplation of a gallery of smiles)

I won't lie and say that any sort of compliment paid me doesn't please me -- of course it does. I'm pleasantly surprised anytime anyone pays me a compliment about my physical appearance, because I have so rarely gotten that before in the past and certainly have never gotten that IRL. But my inner thoughts are always going to be there, and this is something I am not going to change unless I work actively at it for many years.

Just wanted to set the record straight.

Eh nevermind, I haven't eaten since Sunday and need to go get food pronto cos I am baaaaabbbling.

I like quirks. The averaged faces in that study freaked me out.

Yeah I feel better now that I got in food. Anyway, yeah the face thing was freaky.

It's kind of unrealistic expectation. You can expect one person to be able to magically get rid of your personal issues wrt self-esteem.

what I want is some kind of renegade beauty math that will explain the power of gap teeth, big noses, fucked up hair, etc etc

You don't necessarily have to disregard your faults or feel that if you use makeup or a girdle you're trying to fool yourself or others. You just accept and move on. None of it really matters all that much.

It's a hard thing to reconcile in some ways...if you're single and trying to hook up obv you must be unhappy single, right? Well, not necessarily. It's a different kind of happy. If you're out at the bar giving a few fine things the eye, you know that if you don't start something that night you can go back to your place and cuddle with a kitty or a pillow and have some fun with a vibrator. I am obviously talking especially to you ladies here. If I was president I'd make sure there was public funding for sex toys. I don't even use mine that much but just knowing they're there and I know how to use them makes a world of difference.

In the past, I've thought that if I guy seemed way too hottt, he must have some evil flaw I don't know about yet, like major egocentrism or an increased tendency to tell big lies. So I wouldn't usually try for them. But, OTOH, when you think about it -I guess I just took those I found out of my league and mentally placed them in a league below myself so as to not feel bad for not having them to myself.

Ok, carry on.

High self-esteem people + the notion of "league" = chances of coupling dramatically decrease

Oh, I guess you don't mean "know" in the same way that Luna does. Never mind.

Anyone else sing the lyrics to "She's Like The Wind" by Patrick Swayze when they read the title to this thread?

(luna you were otm with yr response to Nick, this proves we are the same person yet again)

I don't understand that kind of comment at all, Sam. "Yeah, you rock, fuck off!"

I often find myself in situations where I'm talking to an interesting guy and he's really making me laugh/listen and I'm hoping against hope that he isn't going to try it on with me as he is physically unattractive to me. I would not be able to sustain a relationship if I thought I could do substantially better on the looks front. I’d think that I was selling myself short. Having said that, I have found all my boyfriends tremendously attractive even though others might not have.

It may sound callous to say this but I have lots of old friends who I love so I can afford to be choosy about the new people I meet. This does not mean that I won't be nice to people but I may not engage as much as I would if they were more attractive (physically, lifestyle-wise, education etc.). I choose new friends on the basis of whether I would be proud to introduce them to my existing friends (and other factors, obviously).

I do think some people are out of my league (top end) and that others are out of my league (low end) but all that demonstrates is that I think their "league" is either more attractive or less attractive TO ME than mine. I have to segment (to use the first analogy) and looks is just one of the bases on which I make my choices. I like having handsome friends.

Thinking someone was more attractive than I am would not stop me from asking them out though!

(And as a postscript, all the ILXers I have met have been absolute honeyz.)

Its neither to me: I'd say its a kind of eternal content-ness with life. pretty dull.

To my heart
she carries
the key

vs.

Though I may not
be the man some
girls think of
as handsome

To her heart
I'll carry
the key

with Andie of course:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/8762/pg/two/four.jpg

notice the tipped shades.

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/8762/pg/two/four

He's trying to hide the evidence that his last girlfriend was too good for him, natch.

Also, and although this is phrased like some attempt at remixing Groucho it's really how I feel: I find X interesting and likeable and attractive = X is out of my league, by definition. Fortunately I have nonetheless ended up dating a whole bunch of people way out of my league, and indeed stayed with one for 23 years. This was a woman who was recognised as a leading expert in a very worthwhile area (domestic violence), consulted by government ministers and called as an expert witness, and when I was at uni and took some photos of her in when someone asked me about my wife, I was asked if she was a model - and she did have such offers, including even about a month before we split, when she was 40. That's way out of my league, but it lasted 23 years.

"Out of my league" connotes class to me more than anything else. Some of those Hughes movies are all about class and how that gets in the way of love, ("Pretty in Pink" especially, IIRC). It's less that YOU think the other person is too cool, too pretty, etc. but that they'll see you as just not refined enough (=money/car/smooth moves), regardless of how hunky you are.

Easy enough, as Jude Law actually has talent.

Goddamnit I'm xposting with serious posts wtf. "League" in those movies has all to do with class as half the time the only reason they aren't hooking up with their truuuuue love is because someone (dad, friends) is all like "Oh that person is from the BAD side of the tracks, fuck them in the ass" (not exactly like that). Meanwhile they're stealing from old people!!! WTF!

Ally, a slight modification would make that the best porno pitch EVAH (ie, drop the "not").

Shut up, Ned!

I bet Lloyd Dobler grows up to be a bitter alcoholic. That's why Say Anything saddens me.

All romantics meet the same fate.

Sad, those quiet Cusack philistines....;>

:(

This is far and away the best Pokemon attack.

Which Spader stole from Andrew McCarthy! You can see it happening in the joint-rolling scene in PiP. Later in some really really bad movie, where the 'hero' has to convince 10 people ahead of him to drop themselves from some college's wait list, McCarthy can be spied doing a fascinating Spader impression. (At least I think it's later.) I was sleepy enough (think insomnia aid) for a minute I thought it was Spader.

But by this math Law is just the new McCarthy, and I dunno 'bout that; problem may be connected to Spader having been more the new-improved McCarthy than a simple thief ...

This is far and away the best Pokemon attack.

In the Team Rocket deck, I'm thinking.

I am too afraid of McCarthy to accurately measure his acting abilities or lack thereof.

RE: "She's out of your league"

No offense, but this seems like a very 'high school' sentiment. People like each other for many reasons, not all of them physical. Some very beautiful people, for example, are bad in bed and boring to boot. But different people like different things, and have different requirements about what turns them on. For some people, a couple must be approximately the same on the social stereotype of beauty to get along. If that's what floats your particular boat, then look for someone as stereotypically pretty or ugly as you, and you'll get along fine.

I personally don't think that anyone is outside of anyone's "league" and I don't think that "leagues" exist. There are only unique individuals who find something special in one another. I prefer finding something special in someone, and always have.

Yes, obviously, but upthread it has been correctly pointed out that without that initial physical attraction, you don't get to find out whether they're the greatest lover in the world or not.

I beg to differ. Sometimes you fall in love with people you wouldn't look at twice, after you get to know them.

No, you're onto something, definitely. I certainly grow more attracted to people once I know them, and that it certainly the deciding factor in whether I... I was about to say, as to whether I sleep with them, but the lord will strike me with lightning if I lie like that. But it decides whether I stick around for a while.

And *don't* think that you just said that, Orbit, I was just bringing it up. I'm probably just too shallow, I think cuteness (and coffee drinking) is essential.

well, there are boundaries and they exist bcz of social class and so on.

It is immature but this sort of thing prob exists.

I can see where people might think this is immature or sad, but personally I don't agree.

btw, I can't believe this thread has gone on this long without invoking the concept of the ALPHA MALE.

Alpha male needs a thread of its own.

Alpha male is a different thing yes. See also Queen Bee.

so nick have you found it yet?

i think this is all to do with power more than anything, either actual or perceived (though power in such things is all about perception anyhow). same thing with options really

i like Ns point about status/money though, but i dont really know if thats a "out of my league" thing as a "not on my wavelength" thing, even though that would be quite presumptive about conflating personality with job/status (something that the west does far too much of anyway)

HS = 'popular (athletic) crowd'
Uni = 'honor students and rich kids' (this may be a lie)
USAF = 'civilians and officers' (this may also be a lie)

but as I said more often than not these sorts of issues go right over my head. I'm much more likely to judge someone based on their personal achievements as I see them and not on any kind of ascribed status.

I fully agree with this and looks are the initial thing that will draw me to a person. The features draw you in, the personality makes you set up base camp and start farming.

Wow, that sounds like a horrifying euphemism and it wasn't meant to. Oops.

I like women with anime-huge eyes. I like men who've broken their noses. If I see someone who is all plasticene I want to punch them in the nose to fix that for them. I just honestly think they look gross.

I wholly admit that I'm closer to bland than I am to interesting.

You are so indie.

there's an element of projection, of assuming what the other person might assume of you based on how you read their status, and how you think they would read yours.

I have a 12" scar heh heh

A league also could be a measurement of depth in the ocean and we could be talking about which squid you think you can date

(I'm not denying Orbit's more general point.)

At any rate, you completely glossed over the important part of post, which was the "reaching consensus" part. Nothing I said actually contradicts what you said.

Anyway, I can't remember hearing it since high school, but at the time it was much more money/academic-future-oriented than appearance. "She's out of your league" usually meant "she's going to Princeton next year, and you're working at Arby's," i.e. she'd only date the likes of you if you were a starter on the basketball team.

I don't reckon Jeter and Piazza would date anyway to be honest.

I never use this expression, btw, and I can't remember any of my friends ever using it either.

Dammit, I WANT LLOYD.

hopefully this has all changed, now.

There was this one, but... I essentially gave him a pen. One that didn't write and exploded in his pocket and left that embarrassing ink stain.

I didn't mean to, of course, and I said I was sorry and offered to pay the drycleaning bill and get a new pen, but I don't think it helped.

what about Alf?

!!!

Sure, Miles was pretty frightening in the 80's, but surely he was pretty during, say, the 50's?

So yes, there are people who are decidedly out of my league. I have few illusions about this.

thanks for reminding me.

Dear the men Mark is talking about: shut up.

There's an interesting chapter in that provocative psychological thriller Moneyball where somebody (?) mentions how everybody has a weakness but people tend to forgive those of good-looking people more readily.

Man, this was a half-ass post, I will re-read the section later and try to flesh this out.

I suppose there is some of that: 'She's so great, she would never want to know me'.

Or maybe you just spend so long pondering on whether that person would like you and could cope with yr flaws that you miss the chance. (Maybe that's why ppl drink alcohol ;))

Remember reading of a study that asked people to rate themselves on a scale of 1-10, then rate a sample of other people's pictures. They then went through the pictures later and asked them to say who they got the hots for, and it was mainly those people who had the same rating as them.

People on this board are often saying that I have "weird" taste in men, or saying that the men I fancy are "ugly" when I think I just fancy interesting looking people. Maybe there's nothing wrong with my taste, but just that I'm ugly, and looking for people on the same attractiveness scale as me.

i have quasi-insightful comments to make if someone else will jump on the thread train

Though I could have sworn that we had a long thread on a similar subject, because I'm sure I've debated it before.

But then again, you spend too much time looking at profiles on dating sites, and you start to think about leagues again.

*When I have told this story before people have interpreted it to mean that she was insulting me. This isn't so. She was merely wondering how one person can find husband material where another person can't even find boyfriend trimmings.

but basically my experience is this. i started off my romantic career as it were with exceedingly low expectations, and over its course things keep happening to gradually raise them. finding myself able to get away with kissing (or even dating) girls i wd normally consider quite out of my league (this ws actually a point of contention in my last relationship as for the first few months i considered her FAR too beautiful for me though i slowly grew to realize we were actually quite well-matched)

so i think the concept of 'league' mt have something to do with the concept of 'streaks' in that as long as you're consistently able to pull those who you consider very attractive, even 'out of your league' your league keeps getting better and better. and perhaps once you reach a breaking point where you're no longer able to do that, or whatever, the 'league' drops. or something.

this isn't worded very well as i've been up for almost 24 hours now bt my point is that external events, not just internal perceptions of your own attractiveness, influence what you perceive your 'league' to be. of course the whole system is bullshit anyway isn't it

I have actually been thinking lately that this a pretty poisonous, negative idea when you combine it with attractiveness types - sometimes I have simultaneously thought someone pretty hot and thought myself out of their league bcz of typed-hotness vs objective "league" hotness disparity, or thought someone who fancied me was out of my league for the reason. If that makes sense. Or the other hand my best female friend and I maintain a flirty but totally safe relationship precisely because we *are* in the same league, but both the total inverse of the other one's type...

The question is: would the guy have a nice personality if he was ugly.

I don't know; I've just lost my mojo or something. My ego is so shredded I just can't fathom the idea of being in *anyone*'s league. So I don't even try. Or else my tries are so half-assed that I wouldn't even respond to them, and that way I can say it was because I didn't really try.

So I'm going to try not to sink into self depreciation here.

WRT the dating site, it's funny, but if the photo of the bloke is too conventionally goodlooking, I won't even click on the link. (Unless there's something really funny and/or pithy in the short description.)

But then I get messages from guys saying "thank you for not being a scuba diving lawyer" and I'm like "huh? what does that mean?" Does it mean that they actually think I'm original, or do they think that I'm closer to their league?

kate: your first line, completely otm. and as for the rest, i mean, i've been there and while i don't wish i ws there again i'm sure you'll make it through. sometimes this kind of thing happens when you least expect it (see my post on the 'second chance' thread). buck up!!! (and maybe change that plan of not touring. everybody has the hots for musician types, IT'S SCIENCE)

I wouldn't be interested in dating a scuba-diving lawyer myself. (Perhaps why I'm so bewildered by this invite for drinks by this bloke I work with.) I'd be more likely to date an unemployed artist or musician (though, actually, honestly, after my last serious relationship, I'm rethinking that) or someone who was more aspirational about creative things, rather than lifestyle things.

x-post

I hate when people think I'm begging for sympathy or compliments or something. I don't actually like being contradicted when I say that I am ugly, because it's more about *feeling* ugly than looking ugly. And being browbeaten by people telling me "you're not ugly" makes me feel like a liar, and like my opinion isn't even valid. Which only makes my self confidence plummet again. :-(

Yeah, but maybe for once in my life, I'd like to get laid/be in a relationship because the other person likes me for *me* - not because I fulfil some fantasy about the "hot chick on the stage" thing?

There was more I wrote but I deleted it because I just started sounding like I was whinging like Julia Roberts in Notting Hell.

The former! By the standards of the site your profile is insanely original. That you've even bothered trying to write about yourself in an interesting and honest way is in itself unusual. 95% of women on there have near identical profiles, mentioning wine, travel and reading the sunday papers, that are filled out with a lot of aspirational lifestyle supplement crap.

x-post HA HA HA!!! I wish.

Although creative people have long been associated with active sex lives, the researchers believe their study is the first to back it up with research.

They found that professional artists and poets had between 4 and 10 sexual partners, while less creative people had an average of three.

“We found it in both the men and women which was quite a surprise to us,” said Nettle, who reported the finding in the journal “The Proceedings of the Royal Society (B).”

It doesn't matter how much your friends try to validate you (or, for that matter, whether they're right or not) you always have this self-image that isn't about to be changed by what anyone says. In my case this is because I don't feel I measure up to what I think women want from a man - physically, mentally or societally. And am always fairly surpised when I meet someone deviant enough to find me attractive.

(Oh, a surname.)

you know kate, there's something to be said for starting a relationship based on purely stupid qualities like that and slowly realizing that you actually have a lot in common with the person. i don't know. i've never been in a relationship that didn't start at first as pure physical attraction, but then again for whatever reason i find it hard / i don't really want to start a relationship with someone who i know well enough to like them for them; it's like at that point you've crossed the point of friendship-no return

Are you lot seriously telling me you've never considered someone 'out of your league'?!

Or, more importantly, and be honest here - been insulted by some ugly little toad trying to chat you up? I mean, I know that sounds horrible and I sound like a love myself but sometimes, a horrible drunken little toad comes and slobbers all over you and you kinda think....try someone more like you, you might have more luck....or is that just me and my huge ego?

Yeah, I know that's horrible and competative and to be honest, it doesn't happen very often, but when I have the sin of pride, that's more the way it goes.

Because then it spirals me down into the comparison game, and the "OK, maybe even my poor self esteem is exaggerated and I'm actually even more shit than I ever guessed."

God, that's one of the most loathesome things I've ever written on ILX. But it's human emotion, "is she really going out with him" etc.

Basically, you had to pick a random stranger in the crowd (who you thought was in approximately the same league as you) and ask your friends if they preferred "her face or mine?"

I was rubbish at this game, apparently, because either I totally overegged the pudding, selecting really gorgeous girls so I would purposely lose - or if I was honest, and picked women I genuinely thought were approximately the same level of attractiveness as myself, I'd be laughed at.

(I know, it's a horrible game, but what else are you going to do when you're shitfaced and bored at Death Disco?)

((Of course, the irony being, as I got up to go, the most gorgeous guy in the club - who they'd all been making eyes at - actually came over to me and gave me a huge bearhug and asked me for my phone number, because it turned out he'd supported my band several years before.))

Most sane men should avoid Scuba Diving Pony Trekking Holidy in Zanzibar Career Career Career Lawyers like the plague. I mean, I would have nothing to say to such a person.

and then you'll be very VERY BORING

Oh, I've absolutly thought people out of my league above me, often ones I really fancy. Eventually I pluck up the courage to ask them out, we might meet up a couple of times, but I eventually find out I've got nothing in common with them whatsoever and I stop fancying them pretty sharpish. People who ARE in my league who I fancy generally turn out to be taken.

To be honest I really haven't thought myself better looking than other people - even people who I know aren't particular hott, I still think of myself at best on their level. I find it very bad to think ill of people though, so that doesn't really count.

And as for the jealosy of hott people going out with hotter people, I use the classic Geeks Defense of "Well, at least I'm smarter than you." Destructive I'm sure, but so long as you isolate the feeling and don't let it spread, it seems to work for me.

Normal service has now resumed.

!!! haha

Pizza Shop League Slow Pitch Softball
American Legion Semi-Pro
Eastern League
Single A
AA
AAA
Majors

Its a pretty good tiered system, and it works well in a crowd ("oh man, that slow pitch is annoying") since no one has or likely will ever adopt it.

Can I just stress that no matter how ugly and/or repulsive I find a person I would NEVER be that horrible to them. I don't think I've ever shot anyone down in flames - it's just so mean (chance would be a fine thing anyway!) Doesn't stop me thinking maybe they should try their line on someone a bit more like them though!

Interestingly it's not a LOOKS thing so much as a PRESENTATION one...time & effort & money & style all put to work to turn out a very sharp figure. How intimidating!

Normal service has now resumed.

ahahahaha STONE MONKEY SO FUCKING OTM

No, Smee, what you are trying to say is "at least you think the same way as me, rather than differently to me like some other people do".

Or are you saying that not only do you consider yourself out of people's league in terms of attractiveness, you also consider yourself out of people's league in terms of ability to discern the truth in a person's description of themself and their opinion? Just because people don't fit in with what you think doesn't mean they're making it up.

I mean "Or, more importantly, and be honest here - been insulted by some ugly little toad trying to chat you up? I mean, I know that sounds horrible and I sound like a love myself but sometimes, a horrible drunken little toad comes and slobbers all over you and you kinda think....try someone more like you, you might have more luck....or is that just me and my huge ego?

Thank God my husband had a more discerning attitude to first impressions, eh? (not that I was slobbering all over him, just slobbering drunkenly in general)

: )

Whatever anyone tries to say - physical attractiveness is ALWAYS an issue - your husband must have been attracted to you, or he wouldn't have given you a second chance, obviously he did.

Yes yes, personailty, wit, intelligence, creativity are all more vital things to discern - but in order for you to find out if a person has these, you have to be interested enough to interact with them in the first place...

You can pretend till the cows come home you don't judge people by how they look but it's human nature, you can overlook the intial judgement or not, in a pub/club it tends to be the latter.

I'm not saying there isn't any physical attraction, of course not. What I don't subscribe to is the idea that people aren't good enough (or are too good) for any particular individual, especially just because they have won some social lottery by being born with more or less attractive physical features. Sorry if my simplistic idea of people being, you know, people is too ILX for you (whatever that means).

My head hurts. Put the means of production in the hands of us uglies! Revolution now! Etc.

why? because i can name 90% of the world's national flags and that really turns on da babes yo ;-)

The awful thing is that I don't actually know for sure...She just stopped returning my phone calls and texts and hasn't spoken to me for the past couple of weeks...The last thing she said to me was that she was very busy (she's a doctor and has just changed shift patterns) and would call me when she was less busy to catch up. So I'm actually just assuming I've been dumped (although its a fairly safe bet, I should think)

Which is a shame; because apart from her being quite ridiculously good-looking, clever and funny I think we were actually quite well suited.

I'm sorry to laugh at your pain, but this is one of the unintentionally funniest thing I've read on ILX is some time.

::sobs::

x-post :-)

underdiscussed - the idea of status, that dating someone 'above' you can represent an increase in your social status. frankly this is entirely true: if you're dating an 'it' girl or guy, people think you must have something and they treat you differently, full stop.

(at least as long as the disparity isn't ridiculously huge. remember how nasty everyone got about lyle lovett and julia roberts?)

n. wrote -

do people actually find people other than their partner far more beautiful, but just think 'ho hum, that's not for the likes of me'?

i think many people are with someone who isn't really looks-wise what they'd hoped for. i don't think its that ppl by-and-large want someone 'perfect', but there's a basic physical minimum each of us hopes for, a face/physique we can be happy with.....or proud of. (which leads back to status.) but we don't always end up with partners who meet that minimum.

lara wrote:

I often find myself in situations where I'm talking to an interesting guy and he's really making me laugh/listen and I'm hoping against hope that he isn't going to try it on with me as he is physically unattractive to me. I would not be able to sustain a relationship if I thought I could do substantially better on the looks front. I’d think that I was selling myself short.

'if I thought I could do better'. this is very interesting because i believe ppl really do think this way - 'what's the best i can expect to do, with what i've got?' - and also that the extent of that thinking has alot to do with how good-looking they are.

in other words: if you have the kind of life-experiences that come from being generally thought of as attractive, you think (as gareth said) of yourself as having choices, options. you're more picky. but if your experience has been that ppl being attracted to you is the exception rather than the rule then you think 'maybe this interesting guy is my best bet, he's not my type physically but i should see what happens.' you're more inclined to give ppl a chance, since you don't think legit opportunities come along very much.

i struggle w/ this a lot in my own life, because i don't really know what's realistic for me to expect. a girl doesn't need to be perfect by a long shot for me to feel totally attracted to them but there are definitely girls who i innately feel attracted to, vs girls who are an acquired taste. and of the acquired-taste group there are girls where it's an easy process, and soon i find them totally beautiful, vs girls on the borderline where i feel like i have to push (or force) myself to fancy them, and the moments where i see them as beautiful, if any, are fleeting and don't last.

could be the girls i'm innately immediately attracted to are already out of my league, since lots of guys feel that way about them and the girls know it. could be i don't have the looks, status, whatever to be competitive enough to get an 'it' girl, so that if i were talking to lara or someone like her she'd think 'nice enough, interesting, but i could do better'.

and that's ok, right, because i tend to find that the acquired-taste girls are a better fit for me anyway - frankly are usually smarter and kinder and more fun, not to mention more open to 'acquiring a taste' for me. thing is though that most, almost all, of my relationships have been with girls where i wasn't really attracted but tried to make it work because i thought i couldn't do better physically and that i should feel lucky that anyone wanted me at all. and if i rejected someone who liked me because i wasn't attracted to them then i was no better than the girls who had done the same to me, who never gave me a chance when it would've meant so much. or my so-called mates who told me that anyone i fancied or thought was pretty, basically, was 'out of my league'.

that's the thing i guess, for every relationship that starts out with a crush across a classroom, or a crowded pub, there's one that starts out with two people thinking, 'well, s/he's ok, i guess, and i haven't had much luck in a while, maybe s/he'll grow on me..." and if they're lucky they discover they're kindred spirits and suddenly what was funny-looking becomes endearing and what was off-putting becomes charming and yay they're in love. but i think just as often people just kind of drift into an extended pleasant but dis-satisfied companionship until they forget how to be alone (or get knocked up) and end up married, wondering 'is this all there is?' until they sublimate, reinvent, have an affair or die.

weird thing to say - but i wish i knew how well i could do, like smee wished her toad-suitor would get a clue about what his true league was. i wish i knew how much i realistically should expect to give up from the physical attraction column to get the best poss. mental-emotional column (which is more important anyway).

ps stone monkey's story is really sad.

I'm doomed, DOOOOOOOOMED...

I don't mind sort of distracting the thread (ooh shiny object) to say that the ones I always think are out of MY league are very put-together boys with their Wallpaper*-esque suits & combed hair -- DETAILS people. This is sort of foolish since, while I'm not Wallpaper*-esque, certainly, but to the extent that I have my shit together at all I AM a details person

what a curious statement from Laurel!

I don't understand this statement at all.

but i know a lot of ppl who are in one or the other situation, or who passed through it. i think it's easier to be ok with it if you've had a phase in your life where you hooked up with lots of hot people (or at least that seems to be the case w/ my friends). i also think that it happens a lot more often outside the major cities - nyc and london are full of beautiful people with high standards, rural montana isn't so much.

i don't think ppl admit to it generally tho, especially if they love their partner - who wants to make them feel like a 'second-league draft choice' like mary said? but ppl in general are a lot more ambivalent than they let on. so i'm not expecting a chorus of agreement here.

btw i once ended up totally infatuated with a girl at uni who for a long time i thought was embarrasingly gloomy and dumpy, so things can change.

Yeah, I think Ally's standing up well for the definition of "minimum" here. If you're dating someone, then they've kind of met your minimum standards of "attractive enough to date" -- in practice, whether you admit it or not. (I know it doesn't always work this way, but in typical circumstances that's sort of the deal.)

So yeah, better ways of putting it revolve around "doing better" and "living up to internal expectations (or even fantasies/wishes) of what a mate should be like."

among other versuses

Which it to say, okay -- if you're dating someone, then they live up to your bare-minimum standards for dating, for the moment. You're complicating that by saying there's other stuff involved (poor self-image, fear of being alone) that might lead someone to go below standards. But there's always other stuff involved -- the "other stuff" is crucial to forming the standards in the first place. That's what this whole thread is about, isn't it? How stuff like your own self-image (poor or not) affects your standards for what you expect.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,,1808717,00.html

Oh and Jennifer Aniston to thread.

A lot of the guys Ive been with, Ive had some people say they find weird looking, but I have weird tastes! I like crooked teeth and big noses and strange hair and eccentric clothing.

Conventionally hot guys, while enticing for a bit, have without fail always been the ones so disinterested I may as well have been invisible, or completely condescending, or having NOTHING in common with me, or intimidating the shit out of me by thinking I'm the one who is weird/behaves inappropriately etc. And who needs that? I regard them as being below my league then, even though theyre hot lookin.

Give me my cute wonky-teethed skinny tall boyfriend any day - at least with him I know I can talk about Futurama all day long, play video games, sing retarded TV theme tunes and laugh like a spaz til snot comes out my nose and he'll still love me to bits.

For one thing, he's actually quite good looking anyway, isn't he?

Also, that article is ridiculously patronising and sexist:

You can't blame Blunt - he is simply being a pop star. There wouldn't be a music industry if uglier-than-average guys didn't desperately want to get laid by better-looking-than-average women. Blunt is also being a man. It is hardwired in the male psyche to trade up whenever possible - the 'Am I out of my league?' chip mysteriously going astray when opportunity beckons.

strangely stumpy looking in what appeared to be prep school issue swimming trunks, skin the colour and texture of raw chipolata, smug little face sizzling in the sun. (personal abuse or what?)

Pls to also remember that Barbara Ellen's cynicism about ugly music industry men who 'marry well' might come from personal experience. In many cases you are dealing with a neurotic creative/performing person who needs attention and never got it at the right time from certain types of girls, so he'll be damned if that time is not now once he makes even the tiniest success for himself.

I'm going to think of Stone Monkey's story everytime I hear the phrase 'normal service has now resumed'. That was really poignant.

This is kind of otm I think.

This thread actually reminds me of one of my friends. He's in a relationship now for about a year and a half, but I remember discussing some girl or other with him once and he said "yeah but a girl like that, how could you go out with her? she's too good looking".

It's so weird though, it makes me wonder does he go out with his current gf cos he feels he has power over her or something, not that she isn't pretty but it's like does he find a level where he is in control and stick to it.

I don't think I could go out with someone unless I found them really attractive, it would just seem like settling. There have definitely been times before my current gf where I'd been single for a while and thought "it'd be nice if X was more attractive cos I would then want to go out with them". I think though that I couldn't actually bring myself to go out with someone unless I had that crippling insane "I really fancy this person" thing going on and physical attraction is a definite part of that.

People are a package, I don't think you can separate how they look from how they are. When you really like/love someone you don't think "I love her personality! Plus as a bonus she's hot!", it all kind of is part of the same person.

The secret is finding somebody who you think is hotter than they think they are, and that thinks you're hotter than you think you are.

i also think this is quite otm.
a friend of mine subscribes to the theory of "equal cuteness" - wherein people know how cute they are and choose partners that correspond to that. but it doesn't take into account "cognitive dissonance" or riches or other issues. but, i mean, it seems to be what goes on anyway.

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a pretty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you

this has never happened to me, but it would be pretty ideal, i think!

Come on! You can't have everything!

uh?

though tbh none of those things are that important even in people i like. maybe 'natural curiosity', though i have none of that myself.

http://www.omelete.com.br/imagens/cinema/news/posters/super_exp.jpg

Very good point. I'm sure I've met guys who I thought had say, a really cute face, but found myself thinking "but god, why's he dressed so stupidly/badly/style-whorishly/etc" (as shallow as that might sound). Or in reverse, someone dressed in, I dunno, some cute indie way that'd catch my eye immediately but they turn out to be not my cup of tea in other ways.

I like my way more, because then you're constantly grateful to have what you've got, which generally makes for a loving relationship with lots of affection.

There are ppl i think are attractive and there are ppl i'm attracted to. Often there is no crossover between the two.

Luckily the ppl I'm attracted to are not out of my league on the socially attractive scale :-)

I don't!

I like AJ!

I don't agree with this, either. I think AJ would make an awesome girlfriend. So what if she's full of shit? I'm sure she'd be great fun to hang out with and awesome in the sack.

I myself am an acquired-tastelessness kind of girl.

don't mind sort of distracting the thread (ooh shiny object) to say that the ones I always think are out of MY league are very put-together boys with their Wallpaper*-esque suits & combed hair -- DETAILS people. This is sort of foolish since, while I'm not Wallpaper*-esque, certainly, but to the extent that I have my shit together at all I AM a details person -- I have accessories galore and match shoes to handbags and all that kind of thing -- but I think I feel untidier than I actually appear. So I'm overawed by very neat & minimally stylish people and feel a kinship with the sort of creatively untidy.

Interestingly it's not a LOOKS thing so much as a PRESENTATION one...time & effort & money & style all put to work to turn out a very sharp figure. How intimidating!

-- Laurel (sininspac...), November 30th, 2005. (Laurel)

Otherwise, we can settle on a Details vs Wallpaper* fite type of thread.

Nonetheless every girl i've been out with has been waaaaaaaay out of my league (and the candid nature of several of my friends' has confirmed that) but they've still gone out with me. after i've spoken to them a bit i have more confidence because, simply, i have more confidence in my personality than in my looks and I also have enough respect for girls not being as shallow as guys that they can be won over by my conversation. seems to have worked so far. not every time. but enough.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/League_of_their_own_ver2.jpg/200px-League_of_their_own_ver2.jpg

"From what I have seen of the lady she seems indeed to be on a very different level to your Majesty"

And yet Spitzer went ahead anyway.

Dating Women Out Of My League

You probably decided what league you were in during high school. If you got a hot girl (by sheer chance, mostly), then you decided you were in the "hot chick" league, and that is what you went for, what you expected, and what you got from then on.

If you didn't get a hot girl in high school (and most of us didn't), then you decided that you were a minor-league player when it came to women. From then on you went for less-attractive women, you expected less-attractive women, and you got less-attractive women.

If you are going to get major-league girls, you need to understand this: the decision you made in high school about what league of woman you were in is totally out of date now. Take a look at your life. Are you the same guy you were when you were a pimply-faced teenager? Of course not. So why should you be stuck with the same league of women that you were then? It's time to move up.

Here's what to do:

1. upgrade your looks Most guys who date women who they aren't attracted to decided on their "look" at about the same time they decided they could never have a major-league babe. They set their style in stone, and haven't upgraded their "look" since then. Consequently, their haircuts and clothes are hopelessly out-of-date. And that matters to women. Hot women simply will not bed down with a guy whose looks are way out of date. You've gotta upgrade.

This doesn't have to be hard, or even that expensive. Get a new hairstyle, and get your hair cut by a real pro. Go into clothing stores and tell the clerks that you are looking for a new look. Take their advice, and get some new outfits. Buy a good cologne (ie, an expensive one, like "Cool Water" or "Armani"), and wear it.

Above all else, don't be afraid to try something new in how you look. It may feel uncomfortable at first, but it'll get you on the hot women's radar screen for the first time. More importantly, you'll feel different. You'll feel more confident, and that will help get you get the girls you desire.

2. Upgrade your behavior Of course, new clothes and a new haircut aren't enough to get a hot babe in the sack. You must change your behavior, too.

A hot woman is attracted to a guy who is able to have fun, and who seems to enjoy his life. She is turned off by a guy who seems like he is looking for a woman to make his life worth living.

Consequently, you've got to have a life that turns you on if you are going to get the girl that turns you on. Do things that are fun, and that involve other people. If you go to bars, learn pool, darts, and other bar games so you can play those games with girls. Play volleyball. Get involved in your life in activities that are fun and that put you around other people. When a major league babe sees you enjoying your life and having fun, she'll become interested. You'll be the kind of guy she is interested in. Then you can make your move.

3. Upgrade your standards An important part of going for the women you want is refusing to go for the women you don't want. This means that, from now on, you only bang girls you are attracted to. End of story. If you want to move to the major leagues, you've got to stop playing in the minors.

This doesn't mean you only date supermodels, but it does mean you only date women who turn you on. If you've felt stuck with dating women who were overweight, or unattractive, stop doing it.

darts. huh.

so now we need a picture of this "new man"

This doesn't have to be hard, or even that expensive. Get a new hairstyle, and get your hair cut by a real pro. Go into clothing stores and tell the clerks that you are looking for a new look. Take their advice, and get some new outfits. Buy a good cologne (ie, an expensive one, like "Cool Water" or "Armani"), and wear it.

who wants to bet he has a soul patch?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDLUX9Prg3E

looooooooooooooooooooooooooool those guys

― uptoeleven (uptoeleven), 08 February 2007 03:18 (2 years ago)

just about nailed it with the entire post for me.

darts. huh

It works - trust me!

http://www.apple.com/trailers/dreamworks/shesoutofmyleague/

Consequently, you've got to have a life that turns you on if you are going to get the girl that turns you on. Do things that are fun, and that involve other people. If you go to bars, learn pool, darts, and other bar games so you can play those games with girls. Play volleyball. Get involved in your life in activities that are fun and that put you around other people. When a major league babe sees you enjoying your life and having fun, she'll become interested. You'll be the kind of guy she is interested in.

This is basically: cultivate a life that makes you happy and is full of things you like/are interested in. Which is way up there on the "functional adult" scale, and pretty much guarantees that either you'll eventually meet someone as a result, or at least you'll be happy and SMRT.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/dreamworks/shesoutofmyleague/

― velko, Tuesday, February 16, 2010 9:55 AM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark

anticipating the FUCK out of this movie's release

...because after a few weeks presumably there will be no need to continue broadcasting commercials for it