New York City is for sellouts

in no particular order. However, since the Great Sex Crackdown of '01 all sex is prohibited in New York. Many people don't find that out until they get here.

Aaron, yr back?

I got to indulge
all my 'welcome back kotter'
fantasies therein

made a lot of friends
saw a lot of famous folks
"dude! it's eric b.!"

then I moved to Chi.
never looked back, even once.
now I miss them both.

Speaking of NYC, I'll be in town from the 25-31st while I'm temporarily homeless. Looks like I'll be moving in December (or May at the very latest, depending on my job situation).

That would make me a sellout for staying longer, and I'm a sellout for moving. Hells yeah!

(xpost I understand what you were getting at, though I kind of like that the champagne room is now my hometown)

Tracer, can you email me? I forget yr real addy.

Yanc3y you have email... Kyle, you will have some shortly!

Re: MC Bar... Yeah! There's a big Camilo painting of this girl that's dating my friend and all sorts of dumb crap on the walls like "Woodward Avenue" signs. The bartenders were incompetent and it generally sucked, other than for the amusement factor.

There's this place called the West Coast...

More seriously, I have always enjoyed visiting NYC. I would never EVER want to live there. All it takes are a few humid days or a few winter days to remind me why, the rest of y'all are welcome to it.

NA's initial point about the mediacentric nature of the celebration of the spot is well taken, though. World exists beyond the Hudson River shockah! I'd love to see Woody Allen figure out what the hell to do with himself in Missoula.

The West Coast sucks ass, there are like 4 good things about it.

Of course! Me, Noise Noise Noise, Mexican food and all my friends and family. Hurrah!

We are so not cool. It's like, you decide to move to New York and struggle and be poor as crap and that's supposed to suddenly make you one of them.

*bows* You must excuse me. This is more a matter of regional differences than schism (as opposed to talking about Mexican food in those states -- and the country itself -- versus anywhere else in the world, but we've been there).

Why move to NYC and not anywhere else in the world? Is there anything left that's special or unique about NYC that doesn't exist in any other large US city?

Really there's probably nothing more hipster than moving to Brooklyn these days other than doing so while wearing a trucker hat.

When Paul's Boutqiue came out I was fourteen and had it set in my mind then that I *had* to live in NYC. I did move there ten years later but was back in TX in less than two. It was something I had to do, for my own reasons. I'm glad I did but it's not a place I wanted to stay.

Part of me would still love to live in SF b/c I just think it's a fantastic city. But moving is a pain in the ass and any move away from TX would just be temporary for me so why bother?

although i would be interested in the OC. I have never seen california.

1) Laziness (I'm originally from here)
2) School
3) Innate hatred of the type of people who come on a thread about NYC and then proceed to big up Worchester and LA.

this line is bending my brain

Yeah, this is kind of my point.

There are better spots than OC out here, believe me, but I'm comfortable enough. :-)

3) Innate hatred of the type of people who come on a thread about NYC and then proceed to big up Worchester and LA.

Show me where I specifically talked about LA on this thread and I'll agree to this point. ;-)

Other reasons for NYC is a built up image of glamour and star power and grit that is long gone and no longer a reality. AKA what Tracer said, it's kind of hard to add anything to what he said. He didn't really mention the drugs.

I'll agree. Right now if I was recommending places to get out to from somewhere -- strictly in American terms -- I'd suggest Seattle or SF, actually. Those living there would probably have their own perspectives on why this would be good or bad.

I've encountered far more grit living in East Dallas than I did in NYC.

Who's moving here, Nick? Anyone I know?

And c'mon: NYC = Disneyland? Don't believe yr own hype, yo. NYC's nightlife is amazing, it's the center of the arts universe, it's filled with a ridiculous amount of beautiful people, you don't need a car and if you are aiming for an entertainment- or financial-related job, it's the place to be.

...and entertainment jobs are moving to Canada because of the "Canadian Advantage"

It's stuff like this that sticks in my craw, Yanc3y! I'm not blaming you, I've just heard it too often with further explanation or context -- I'm all for self-fulfilling prophecy and everything but is it actually true?

http://www.hollyeats.com/images/New%20York/Hallo-Menu.jpg

Where I worked up there, only two of us were native NYers. Everyone else came from somewhere else. One of those natives, my Creative Director, never travelled in the US really. Why should she, she reasoned, when she lived in NYC. She was half French, half English, hardly bathed and was the most obnoxious person ever.

I'm glad NY exists.

i hate it, Chris, or at least i've told myself that many times

Ya think? I dunno. I have wanted to be/always felt like I am a writer and all, but I figure urban mystique in your brain is where you find it, I can pitch to editors and hash out ideas on-line, you can download all the music and art and whatever you like in life these days, and I can walk out from my door and get great ramen, soul food, Cuban cuisine and fish tacos (and Iranian and Indian food etc.) within a hundred yards. So I dunno, it seems less necessary that NYC specifically should be it.

NYC undoubtedly offers more writing-related job opportunities than many places, though.

(The German Soul Food is one of the few things that has made me want to visit NYC.)

Being moved to write verse/stories/songs/scripts about it and capture the "vibe"=horribly cliche.

I'm sure you're right there, given the publishing houses and all -- since that's never really appealed to me as a career path, NYC was never going to be a beacon on that front, but for others (Nabisco, for instance?) it would be a darn good holy grail.

it's pretty much our platonic ideal of 'the city;' anywhere else is just 'a city.'

*rubs chin* Sorta yes, sorta no. Mine seems to be a combination of NYC's transit setup with Melbourne's beachfront and SoCal's food.

and therein lies the humor

That's because, what 8 million people pack themselves into 25 square miles or something every single day? (i'm pulling these numbers out of my ass but I'm sure they're not too far off). That's one of the biggest reasons I have for no longer living there.

The most desolate, decript bums I've ever encountered were in London.

We have a million diners.

(these pictures are all my answers to the question)

B-b-but if you move here you can have the midwest AND Germany AND Worcester and a million other places all in one city with an easily navigable and reasonably cheap transportation system!

I think most of the reasons one would have for living and loving where you live are personal. They can seem like nice reasons to others but unless they're *your* reasons no one else is going to get them.

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/images/belmont.jpg

..for visiting.

(also, um, some people grew up here)

(Tracer, Felicity, Mary, bnw--look familiar?)

http://forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/GREENWICH%20VILLAGE/pamela1.jpg

Then why make the case for how great it is for all the random googlers who will eventually read the thread! ;-)

..says the Phoenix native?

Sorry, Ally, didn't mean to be flippant. No one should be made to feel guilty about moving to any place if they just feel it suits them. But I think NA's indirect point is that there is nagging "NY is the only place" vibe that gets tiring after a while. (not accusing you of that)

http://www.norfolkwindmills.com/images/apple.jpg

http://www.norfolkwindmills.com/images/wbridge.jpg

http://www.norfolkwindmills.com/images/littlelighthouse.jpg

http://www.norfolkwindmills.com/images/coney3.jpg

http://www.essentialbigapple.com/graphics/66stsign.jpg

Gareth's pix are lovely :)

I'll say this, though. I certainly wish fuckin' less people would move here and leave the city for those snobby shits like myself who were actually born here, goddammit!

Just kidding......sorta.

And some elsewhere! And that's a large part of it too, what feels like 'home,' wherever it is. I had the best of both worlds, I think, in that I grew up moving around to various places -- including upstate New York, let us not forget! -- but kept coming back to San Diego as a home. I'm used to SoCal, its weather and its ways and its atmosphere, and I dearly love it still. For all the cases that can be made for NYC and all the comparative inconveniences that may occur -- the whole 'how do you live in SoCal without a car' thing, f'r instance -- there's as much captivation and potential magic here as there is there. I wouldn't make the case for it being better than NYC but I *would* make the case that it's more equal than either side would realize, and you could make similar comparisons for many other cities and NYC at that.

ha, nativism, gimme a break.

To me, the western states are one big vacuous hole of hellpit.

So yeah, to me, people move to NYC for personal reasons. Other people might be here for other reasons, but since I never ask them, I don't speculate why they might want to be here.

(massive xpost)

(I'm going back to posting pix, I want to scan in the rest of my photography tonight and upload! So now I am relying on others)

(I thought the west coast was boring before I had a whole lot of shit happen to me)

(hahaha everyone on ILX can figure out exactly where I live from my pictures on this thread, it's great)

I think I may move to SF at the end of the year Sam, so if you want to visit...

Can we admit it's all about stereotypes (and ones which pretend the rest of the country doesn't exist)?

East Coast on West: 'Shallow, obsessed with surfaces losers!'

West Coast on East: 'Pretentious, snobbish idiots!'

Truth of matter: 'There are things to like and dislike about both places, actually. D'oh.'

Rest of country: 'Fuck you and your ocean-moderated weather.'

ALSO my NYC is covered in snow at all times.

1991 to thread!

Okay, I can only talk from my experience. I've lived in the Midwest for all my life, but because my grandparents lived in NYC and my parents grew up there, it has always felt like my second home. When I was young, it was completely intimidating and overwhelming and I used to have panic attacks trying to walk down the street. When I reached high school and college, it suddenly changed and made sense.

New York is impractical. This is why I love it. There is more going on there at any given moment than anywhere in the world, and the thing is, it's all accessable.

That's because, what 8 million people pack themselves into 25 square miles or something every single day? (i'm pulling these numbers out of my ass but I'm sure they're not too far off). That's one of the biggest reasons I have for no longer living there.

This is also why I love it and can't wait to move. Somehow, when so many people have been crammed into the same space, their underlying humanity comes out. I know it's hard to believe and most won't believe it, but I've experienced it every time I visit.

So, anyway, I'm going to law school with an eye to go into media/entertainment law... that's why I'm moving.

http://www.rushmillerfoundation.org/FOA%20-%20FDNY%20L-35.jpg

After that I left NYC because it became extremely tiresome, increasingly difficult to afford (and still have money to have a life and things I want), and generally anxiety-inducing. I will be the first to admit that my inability to deal with anxiety well was the most important part of the decision and a factor in both of the other reasons I state.

That said, if one enjoys the constant buzzing of activity 24 hours a day, seven days a week, I cannot think of a place in the US that will deliver quite as well as NYC. Aaron's right... there is something magical about how insanely active the place is, but the other side of that is that it's extremely difficult for some people to relax in that city no matter how badly they want to.

I have severely ambivalent feelings toward NYC, but I definitely don't hate it. I just wouldn't want to live there again.

Yeah, I'm being a devil's advocate, but for a point. ;-)

As you say, you speak from your own experience -- speaking from mine, the humanity in a place that's more spread out than compacted is no less present and no less affected. And stepping away from where I live to even quieter areas...I've found it's there. Not in the cliched Ray Bradbury-as-misinterpreted-by-morons fever dream of some sort of rural purity of spirit, but just in casual "Hey, what's up? How are ya?" attitudes.

Humanity is where you find it, and I find it everywhere, compacted or diffused. Thank goodness for that too.

1991 to thread!

Look, I never denied I was a dated fuckhead. ( ;-) )

Moving anywhere is "selling out." Do people really care about this stuff?

Heh, I pointed this out earlier. But apparently, people still do...(although in Washington and Oregon states, there might be some valid arguments as to why there's a tradition of hating Cali immigrants.. i'm guilty as charged, your honor)

(and if you don't find some of the photos in this thread idyllic and peaceful, you're not looking hard enough)

So, like, um, all the beach pictures and woodsy pictures already posted don't count?

(xpost)

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/summer/umbrella.jpg

Best post of the thread so far.

I think Lawrence is suggesting they wouldn't count if a good chunk of the eight million are there with him searching for peace and quiet.

To be fair, I've found perfect serenity more than once in the middle of Manhattan, and not in Central Park even. But I think it's more a matter of state of mind, really. Celebrating the rush of everything is similar -- it's not always NEEDED, but it's certainly nice to have around. But at the same time, I've found similar rushes in plenty of other cities (London, SF, Seattle, Melbourne, LA itself), which again takes us back to the whole 'why this city in particular' conundrum we started with...

Good luck, Aaron! Thanks Nordic! Hope your SF living situation works out as well. My fingers are crossed for you.

Another thing I love about NY is how green it is. Unless you've been or visited you don't realize how many parks and trees there are. Detroit, by comparision, definitely is an asphalt jungle.

I assume a beach, but what beach?

http://www.dabitz.com/albums/BearMountain/aaa.jpg

http://www.richmangalleries.com/images/Bear-Mountainweb.jpg

http://www.payphone-project.com/payphones/photos/usa/212/square.jpg

http://www.stat.uiuc.edu/~masha/nyc/met1.jpg

(Did you get my email?)

It's all context, though.

"I'm moving to NYC because it seems cool (or from past experience, one knows it is cool) and I think I would enjoy it given my interests and goals." = very spiff

"I'm moving to NYC because there is nowhere else in the world that has anything like any of this anywhere else and I refuse to believe that anyone would say otherwise and anyone who does just doesn't understand." = er (and NO, I don't think anyone on this thread has said this -- but I have encountered it face to face more than once, and it just makes me scratch my head)

Ned, you do this on every single thread about any city ever. "Oh yes it's lovely but I only want to live on the west coast". Do you realize this?

I think everyone's wanting to move to NYC is fine. It just means that there will be less people in Seattle when I move there at the end of September, and that's fine with me.

wrong

If I do, it is partially hyperbolic. I've considered a move to Michigan seriously at one point, for instance, in another instance was coming around to the idea of living in the UK, and looking in the future both Australia and New Zealand were captivating enough for me to want to visit again and not necessarily rule out a move. I don't necessarily think I'll be living on the west coast the rest of my life.

I'm so sorry, Ned!

Fair enough, and you'd know better than I, but in the time I was there I didn't have much luck finding the kind of places I needed to find for me.

Not only that, but the amount of $$ necessary to live there was enough to make relaxation nearly impossible for me even if I had known of a place I could go to be alone for a while.

I have more respect, approval, whatever, for any of the upthread reasons to move to NYC

Agreed there. Ain't nobody here idiots none, which is the point, really.

The pics are beautiful, but prove nothing. Anybody from any city can post pretty pictures of their home city. Sorry, but it's true.

Anyways, I didn't mean for this thread to be "people that live in NYC, defend it," but rather: Why is NYC is the default place for people to move to? I like NYC, it's great fun, but I've had just as much fun in every city I've lived in or visited. Do people just have no imagination?

I hate to say this because it sounds like I'm saying "lady, if you have to ask..." but if these photos prove nothing to you about why people would want to move here, I feel sorry for you.

Why is NYC is the default place for people to move to?

Live here for a while (and by "live here" I mean "actually take advantage of the place") and you'll understand why so many people move here.

I really think this is just a very, very subjective thing. What a place looks like wouldn't even make my top ten list for why I would or wouldn't want to live somewhere, and not much of the content (like, what they're photos of, as opposed to how nice they look) would really sway me one way or the other. People want different things from where they are; if that weren't the case, the only things that would vary would be climate and cost of living.

(xpost--like I said, there is no way to describe in words why any of us live here besides the explanations already given, so we're using pretty pictures to help illustrate. None of us can speak for the specific people being asked about being as they aren't the ones replying to you)

I mean I'd hate to think you're implying that people who choose to live here have no imagination.

Well, to be fair, NA, you did kinda spring this thread during the day when proud New Yawrkers are at work and can't go home to prepare Powerpoint slides and portfolios. :)

Yeah, I always felt like the real sellouts are the people who move to Chicago instead of New York because it's "easier to make it." If that's the case, why not stay in Ohio, Missouri, Michigan, the Rockies, etc.?

http://www.cap.bnl.gov/nufact03/campus_lo2-020924c.jpg

Maybe they're more informed than you think?

http://www.jericbarnes.com/shp/columbia/images/large_columbia_statue.JPG

How do they necessarily lack imagination? NYC is well documented as great by a number of sources. So are some other cities, but arguably none as much as New York. So what imagination are they lacking? The imagination that will convince them that some other city is great when they've never heard anything great about it? Is it lack of imagination that causes people to go with a "sure win" instead of something more risky?

I'm moving to Seattle after living in New York and Nashville, but I don't think I'm any more imaginative now than when I wanted to move to NYC. Seattle was suggested to me by a few people who know me well as a place they thought I'd like, and I had started seriously considering moving there. I finally had a chance to visit it, and I did like it a lot, so I'm moving. But I don't think imagination had much to do with it at all.

xpost for shit

I hear NYC has a huge demand for Ringo Starr impersonators.

Fuck having a job in NYC, I'm not going to have one in approximately 4 months and it'll be wonderful.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Phil, yeah, I like that. Can I bring a guest on this move? Can I wear silver space shoes?

I think I need a cooling off period. I'm not reading this thread again until 3:45. That's 37 minutes from now.

i need to find someone to move with me. i donut want to go all alone :(

I want to talk about living under the sea.

Well for one thing, NYC is located at a convenient midpoint between London and Los Angeles (my second- and third-favorite cities).

Anyway, this thread got rather touchy. Who knew?

In fact, I can totally understand it if one might be tired of defending one's home locale. Lord knows how many times I've had to explain to incredibly ignorant people that Texas is a wonderful state, that we are modern, that we have all the comforts of living in any other state in the U.S., that we aren't the way we're depicted on TV and in the movies, etc. One of the few moments when I was moved to cry in deepest anger was when I was watching the episode of "Coach" supposedly set in my city (San Antonio, for those not paying attention *wink*), that was filled with all of these horrid and humiliating stereotypes of what the city was supposed to be like instead of anything even remotely resembling what the city really is like. I do realize that yes, this is a sitcom, and yes, they are bound to do this, but imagine being younger and not living in this city. Imagine being influenced by what you watch on TV in regards to what your opinions and thoughts of a particular place is, and having nothing but horrible old and decayed stereotypes that essentially add up to "oh, avoid this backwards place" thoughts. It really hurts. It really hurts me every time I see something on TV or in a movie that shows Texas in a negative light, because we have had so few opportunities in the past to have it shown in a positive light OR EVEN IN JUST A REGULAR, TRUTHFUL LIGHT. To me, it's just as if there was a movie that was released and the central female figure was this huge, cartoonish, firey Latina maid who sang mariachi songs and said "Madre de Dios" every half minute, and who had that ridiculous frilly off-the-shoulders blouse and wore horrendously bright red lipstick, and this creature was presented as a Real, True Latina.

*ahem* Many sorries. I digress. Just had some issues to work out.

Anyway, if you're a huge fan of NYC, good for you. If you're a huge fan of another location, good for you. Just try to keep your mind open to the fact that there are other locations out there with their own fans and their own good points, and that there are people EVERYWHERE who wouldn't give up their OWN locations for all the money in the world. This goes for both sides here.

Don't mind me. Am just going through a really touchy period. Thanks.

!!

How come you know so much about my city? Did you used to live here? I'm such a dumbass. I didn't realize.

DUDE, I've been trying to hint to you and NA that I know a lot of Richmond folks via my very best friend here in Seattle who used to live in Richmond. I've met and now know the notorious Mich**l Otl*y who seems to be the Richmond kingpin. :) I met a lot of these folks when I visited Richmond last year, and took a walk through Carytown. (Also met Marty and Adam via having done sound for Young Pioneers a few times on KUCI and various other shows). Plan 9 is also, like, the best record store on the east coast.

But yeah, that's cool.

you know what I mean

Was born and raised in the madness, so I'll always love it. But what will happen to Jersey or Staten Island when NYC can't hold the 20 million determined to move there?

Been there, tasted that.

Ever seen The Fifth Element?

TURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRN around...

http://www.kajagoogoo.com/Images/albums/limahl/limahl_7_neverending_german_a.jpg

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2002/01/18/LIMAHL.JPG

DB, tis called an urban legend. Too many diasters should have happened to NYC by now. Much like the "big one" that's supposed to sink California.

this is all bollocks?

It's where you dream of moving when you're outside the cultural norm of your area (especially as a teenager). Nightlife, record stores, shopping, interesting people, adventure, etc. Basically a "get the fuck up and out" ideal.

And the reality of both is far less exciting than the fantasy.

Ur, well Olympia is more like the "Albany" of Washington state, for obvious reasons.

"My life would be cooler if I lived there!"

Dallas now has the highest per-capita crime rate in the nation for cities of 1mln+, and Dallas County is the twelfth most-polluted county in the nation.

Like I said, grit. .

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/chinatown3.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/car.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/bridges.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/adam.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/chinatown2.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/boat.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/adisteph.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/albums.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/highbuilding.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/desk.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/benchdude.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/cabbie.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/delancey.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/chinatown1.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/joeneil.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/lighthouse.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/tattooprocess.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/monkey.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/subway.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/pigeon.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/rockapulco1.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/waterfall.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/steph.jpg

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/nyc/momdad.jpg

Ally is the next Ryan McGinley.

I know which one is the sad picture...I used to go up there like at least once a week to just stare at everything. Actually, two pix were taken from there: the view of the bridges and the one straight down on the city.

;)

Yes. I have no idea what. Further study is required.

it's pretty much our platonic ideal of 'the city;' anywhere else is just 'a city.'

Ding ding ding! (though see also London)

I'll say this, though. I certainly wish fuckin' less people would move here and leave the city for those snobby shits like myself who were actually born here, goddammit!

Nothing good ever came of an enterprise of entirely NY-born humans.

Ned:
To be fair, I've found perfect serenity more than once in the middle of Manhattan, and not in Central Park even.

http://www.demotelco.com/fb/photo/resources/217114166216105612301474000001/ned.jpg?tw=450&th=450

OK let's move to Alabama immediately.

Sellout.

--

People move to NYC because they imagine that it has a constant stream of the new and interesting. This is true, because the people that come to see it, bring it.

Obviously, the chips on the shoulders of NYCers born and bred are nothing compared to those of people who moved there.

Sinatra got it slightly wrong: Once you make yourself there, you can take yourself anywhere. For people that are still cookie dough, it's the hottest oven. Obviously this is mass delusion, but so is the United States of America.

(I had to rewrite this, as the first time I was using 'here' instead of 'there').

Also, milo is OTM here: It's where you dream of moving when you're outside the cultural norm of your area (especially as a teenager). Nightlife, record stores, shopping, interesting people, adventure, etc. Basically a "get the fuck up and out" ideal.

And the reality of both is far less exciting than the fantasy.

(I'm a little sleepy, so this will be vague - I did miss NA's intention on this thread a bit, but I think he's missing the answer to his question that's implicated in NYC'ers answers to what they imagine the question to be. certainly there are people who move here for a fantasy, and find it or not, and there will be disillusionment for those who don't. but in fact, the reality for many people is better than the fantasy, and perhaps there are people who move here who have realistic, instead of fantastic, notions of what the city is like. therefore for many, whether native or non, NYC isn't overrated because they never rated it on to anything but its own terms. the "fantasy" in fact is perhaps largely invented by people *outside* of New York. people who live here may have trouble explaining it to non-NYCers because they don't have the same reference points. like, explain to me why Richmond is great (though I gather that's not necessarily the sentiment) - I'm not necessarily going to understand very well (though I'm willing to believe it). the backlash against NYC may just have to do with the number and volume of its flacks. then again, NA may be right about why people move here and we're ignoring his question, though it may be self-explanatory. or does the question have less to do with NYC than why *other* cities don't have the same allure? how many people really choose between cities to live in? and are they choosing between the cities themselves or the larger regions that they are found in (i.e. Coast v. Center, East v. West, South v. Middle v. North)?)

The phrasing of that raises my hackles, though I see your larger point. Might it be more accurate to say that other places have their own allure than simply investing NYC with something untouchable and unique?

I really hate discussing locale with you, though. No offense or anything but like I said you just seem to come in to these threads to play devil's advocate against whatever is being agreed to about the goodness of an area.

However, I do think NYC has something unique (as a matter of reality, not fantasy) that is particularly alluring to people who wish to live in a large city and that perhaps can't be found or is not imagined to be found anywhere else (except maybe London, Hong Kong, etc.). It might not be alluring to people who don't wish to live in a large city, or to people who wish to live in a large metropolitan area without a dense, residential, monumental core and active sidewalk culture.

DID YOU KNOW that the horse-drawn hansom cabs have rate signs like in taxicabs: " $34.00 for the first 1/2 hour or part thereof, $11.00 for each additional 1/4 hour"? I wonder how these rates stack up against those from Henry James' or Wharton's day.

If suburban mall culture = teen pop, do tourists gravitate towards Times Square because it's the least guitarbandlike place in NYC?

NA this totally depends on what you mean by 'large'. I've felt a similar level of excitement and potential in LA and SF as I did in NY (when visiting; I've never lived in any of these). Both of these cities also have their own strong moving-to mythologies. The only other US cities that can compare to NY in size are Chicago and maybe sorta Boston. If by large you mean Pittsburgh, Seattle or Denver, then yes, NY has a much greater selection of the unique and special. If you're a person who's interested in urbanity, and all the diversity and cultural stuff that comes with it, you don't really want to move to Seattle or Portland, despite the fact that they're officially cities (trust me).

New York has no gondolas

but it does!

http://www.rioc.com/tram.gif

xp: chester - what do you mean by large? surely not geography. the LA metro area has more people than does the NY, I think, and also greater density which is bizarre. maybe they count the bodies of water in NY? however, I'm NYC-born and bred and adore Seattle, though admittedly not for its 'urbanity'.

I can tell you. I just received a book in the mail from my gradmaother, who was cleaning out a bunch of books and found "The Real New York," a personal guide on shops and ting, written by a lady reporter in 1933. By 1933 there were only 6 hansom cabs left in the city and they congregated exactly where they congregate now, across from the Plaza Hotel at the corner of 59th and 5th Ave. The price was $3 (length of ride unspecified), which this reporter says had been the going rate for at least 30 years, despite the fact the stable fees had increased five-fold. This book is so great, she says you can go to any basement-floor apartment on 47th St west of sixth ave, ring the buzzer, and when the tiny window bangs open and a pair of beady eyes present themselves you say casually that you were "there last night with Johnny Walker." She says this code works everywhere, even downtown. I'm gonna have to try that sometime.

Philadelphia is much, much bigger than Boston. So is Phoenix.

See how mythologies work?

That book sounds great, Tracer!

If you can't deal/think it's overrated/like your city so much better, just don't come. We won't miss you and frankly rents are too high already. 'nuff said.

again

(xpost)

Also, in terms of multiculturalism, Toronto's got everyone beat. 56 different ethnic groups speaking 80 different languages--the most diverse city in the world. (I used to work for Ontario tourism)

(NOTE: The preceeding might be a lie.)

Taking Sides: West Nile v. SARS

I reserve the right to spend a lot of time worrying about NA's friends

BURN!!!

Know what blows my mind? Well, Emily and I are moving to Charlottesville, Virginia in September -- C-Ville is a small city (with a town-ish feel but lots to do) at the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains, an hour from Richmond, three hours from the beach. It's gorgeous there, lots to do, great food, fairly progressive (especially for Virginia!), etc. Now, take Nick's question about picking NYC over any other major US city, and just think of how many minor cities like C-Ville there are out there, cool towns that hardly anyone outside of the state knows about but which are a lot of fun... the mind boggles.

as some of you know, I moved back here for a job. in a month and a half or so, when a couple of large job-related projects are finished, I will be a much easier person to be around. but I don't *miss* NYC as intensely as I figured I would--and yet I have no doubt that I want to go back, that I WILL go back, someday, who knows when. but one of the city's chief charms is that if you've been there and you enjoy it (not everyone does, of course) you're pretty much a dual citizen of it and wherever you go afterward.

I find you very interesting to take photos of, you're a good subject. The subway picture is more washed out on the scan than in the original, for some reason--I can't get the levels right at all because of the reflection of the flash off my face. What convinced me to dye my hair black, all the photos from that night are the same, I look SO white and it just contrasts badly and washes out everything. The pic came out real nice though, you and Tracer look just great in it and I remember when we took it, you said, "I think that'll be the best picture of the night" and it was but I never scanned it because it just seemed...personal? I dunno. Which made it fit here.

Just to explain beyond the obvious reasons why I'd take photos of you, ie you're my dawg.

New York feels like a city dreamed into existence by a group of seriously coked-up people: "Right, right, there'll be a bar every three steps, and half of the people will look like models on their days off and act like drug-level flirty extroverts, and I guess we need a park so it should be just fucking huge, right, and and and. . ." I already know I don't have the energy (or the accessories) for this city, but whatever.

Other cities are great. Chicago's great, Boston's nice in its own skeezy way, I really like Atlanta now, San Francisco is the most beautiful thing ever (dreamed up by people on some combination of opium, ecstasy, and high-quality weed), and with the exception of maybe Arizona (sorry for your trials, Ally), the southwest is my favorite area of the country, and I can easily imagine myself wanting to live in Albuquerque or northern Colorado or even back in Pueblo, CO again. At some point.

But look, the NYC as "center of the arts" thing isn't just snobbery. Obviously you can make art anywhere; obviously. But the actual people and industries that transform the act of making art into a feasible industry are, for better or worse, all packed around this one city. If you want to work in trade publishing, you're moving there, period. If you want to write, you'll at least sort of benefit from getting out there and connecting yourself with other writers, editors, and agents. If you want to work in theatre, visual art, film. . . . (And you know: I'm sure it is snobbery on a lot of people's parts to point this out -- as if any artist worth anything will obviously be in NYC -- but a lot of the time it's just the realistic desire for people to slip in close to the industries they're trying to enter. You can be a great band in Indiana, but if you want to play a bunch of shows and hook up with a good-sized label, moving to Chicago isn't such a bad plan. Same goes for writers and actors and New York.)

New York is still brain-melting, though. I'm sure the coke-heads woke up the next morning and were filled with a gut-level fear of this massive chattering thing they'd created.

I really don't think so-- NY and vicinity has about 2x metro LA's population, from what I remember. Same applies to the cities themselves.

As for the Toronto booster: I think Jackson Heights alone beats your numbers for ethnic and linguistic diversity. I do really like Toronto, outside of its Protestant middle class, but alien-ness of New York is one of its most insistent and compelling features. And it applies to immigrants from inside the US: I know of subcultures of (for example) Detroiters, and there's a sizable building in Greenpoint filled with people from Memphis.

To expand: more English than England

Nick, obviously, NYC is not for everyone, but your remarks seem to betray a willful ignorance of the draw of the metropolis for many people. There is a definite NYC-bound pattern and history of writers (Fitzgerald, Capote, Thomas Wolfe, etc) and artists (Warhol et al) that feeds and perpetuates the mythology as the city as an escape from one's limited background.

In the above cases, NYC is provided in contrast to St. Louis, Alabama, North Carolina, Pittsburgh. The city holds a special draw for people from the South and the Midwest and is (was?) seen as a sight of licentiousness and freedom; historically it is one of the few places in America where gay men could feel comfortable.

Now, with the unearthing of subculture via TV and especially the internet, and the farming out of hip lifestyles to every corner of the US, the city is perhaps less necessary than ever for those wishing to lead an "alternative" life. Good thing, since the prices here preclude any sort of bohemian culture to greet any would-be cityspotters.

At the same time, the city itself is undergoing a suburbanization, and is awash in Starbucks etc. Sixth Avenue has become Avenue of the Stip Malls, with Bed Bath and Beyond and their like setting up camp. In addition, thanks to Giuliani and (and now Bloomberg?) civil liberties here are likely now at an all time low.

Stil, for many (and I can especially see why in the case of VA this would be the case, as it is my home town as well) the city still represents great opportunity and contrast. I came here because when I visited I really liked the energy on the street--yes, I thought it was like nowhere else in America, and I've since realized it is like no where else in the world (that I've been to).

I woundn't be too hard on your friends if they are acting smug about their planned moves--they will be struggling soon enough. It is definitely a challenge to live here.

(Disclaimer: I'm sure that many cities besides NY share characteristics with what I wrote above, but Nick asked about NYC, not anywhere else.)

Bah, I just wrote a long response to Mary and then intentionally erased it. I guess I'm just not in the mood today. But thanks for the contributions.

The Cruise to thread*
the greatest film about NYC evah !!!!

For those of you who live in the United States or are familiar with its culture, imagine a place that starts with a political and social system that's identical to today's United States, but has a few significant differences.

In this place, most people speak more than one language. Almost no one owns a car, even the millionaires. Many people don't even knowsomeone who owns a car. There's no Wal-Mart, no Target, no Home Depot.

People regularly and willingly use mass transit to get around for the few things they can't approach on foot. Almost every neighborhood has the basic amenities in walking distance, like a hardware store or dry cleaner or drug store, and they're almost all mom-and-pop operations, not multinational chains.

The people in this place, in addition to being well-educated on average, are extremely friendly, showing a repeated willingness to talk to and greet strangers, and an eagerness to educate tourists or visitors on the customs and rituals of their home. Their cultures are an extremely varied mix of cultures, backgrounds and identities, pervaded with an astonishing level of tolerance and respect.

There's also a deep ethic of civic-mindedness. Average citizens are not just aware of, but actively engaged in efforts such as city planning and zoning laws and the design and preservation of public spaces. Architecture is valued and protected by well-organized, well-financed groups, often consisting of canny partnerships between public, private, and corporate concerns. New urbanism is an understood goal, not just a theoretical ideal.

And this society exists within an unparalleled environment of artistic and entrepreneurial innovation. Constant reinvention paired with startling new creations. Music, dance, theater, film, sculpture, writing, and any other manner of expression all functioning at levels unsurpasssed anywhere else in the world at almost any other point in history.

So this place? It's where I live, Manhattan. New York City. That's why I write about the city with such reverence, and why it exists as a living, breathing character in my life and in the lives of every New Yorker. It seemed like something I needed to remind people about, if they're interested in reading what I have to say.

I was recently asked what my site was about, and what I had originally intended for it to be about, and I replied that the first name for my site was "New York New Media New Funk" and that I was hoping to get back to that mandate. I've mostly moved the New Funk over to my Pop Lifesite on TypePad, so the focus for now is to try to articulate why, exactly, I love my city so much.

There's a tendency for any positive dialogue about New York to be seen as unseemly, the vain preening of a city already too obsessed with itself. This is mostly the opinion of people whose impression of New York City is stuck somewhere between 15 and 25 years ago, when subway cars were still covered in graffiti, and when city parks were dangerous instead of idyllic. I'm fine with people's outdated notions of New York, though; It keeps them from overcrowding the city with their tourism.

And it goes without mention that there are problems here, serious ones. Most of them we see as charming idiosyncrasies, the same way we see the failings of a curmudgeonly uncle. It's loud here, much of the time. There are, of course, Targets and Home Depots in the outer boroughs. Sometimes the power goes out. People resent the Yankees. Bill O'Reilly broadcasts from here.

But it's important to remember that New York isn't just peerless among modern cities, it is inarguably among the greatest cities that has ever been. The renovation of our public parks in the past 10 years alone seems poised to leave this city, even in the shadow of our still-aching wounds, on the brink of a renaissance to rival the Beaux Arts splendor that beautified the city 100 years ago.

I tend to have a status update on the top of this site, as a tagline. Right now, it says "New York Invented Xmas" but it's just as likely to say that New York Invented Hip Hop, and the beauty of being here is that I get a vivid reminder that both of those statements are true.

So thanks for indulging me in keeping New York as part of my site's title, even though I've never done an adequate job of explaining exactly why it gets such a significant role. If you've never been here, if you've never lived here, you might not ever understand. But maybe now you'll at least have a hint of why it matters so much to me.

There's a Home Depot in Brooklyn.

Tonight was another breakdown where I bum myself and the girlfriend out by contemplating publicly about having to move away.

x-post.

yeah, serves me right for not reading thoroughly enough.

http://www.screensavershot.com/sports/tyson.jpg

Mr. Tyson takes umbrage with your statement

their plants selection is pretty awesome as well (though i bought a venus flytrap there once for like $3 and it was the saddest venus flytrap ever, i had to force-feed it bugs)

"Ally (mlescau...), August 7th, 2003"

Apparently Ally can't read. I clearly state on my site (ON THE FRONT PAGE EVEN!!):

"One final detail. I work hard to put these images online for everyone to enjoy. Please respect my rights. Any photo contained in this website is (registered) copyright 1997/1998/1999/2000/2001/2002/2003 (and beyond!) Mr Steve, aka Stevem. You are welcome to view them here or save them for your own personal, non-commercial use. Feel free to refer your friends to the site if you'd like, but please *DO NOT* distribute, publish, transmit, retransmit, link to, or in any way duplicate these photos. "

I pay money every month to keep my colocated website up. I work hard taking the photos, editing them and putting them online. It's a time consuming process, but a passion of mine. When you make a direct link to one of my images, in direct violation of my stated restrictions, you are STEALING from me! You are using my bandwidth to serve your purposes and not paying me for it. Not only that, but you are depriving me of the credit I deserve for capturing the image in the first place. One of the things that make it worthwhile for me to put my efforts into my web site is the feedback that I get from visitors. Not much chance of feedback when I'm not getting a photo credit, now is there? I'm sure that many of the photographers whose work is being STOLEN on this site would share my feelings of being ticked off about this.

So whenever someone is stealing my images and at the same time stealing my bandwidth, I happily send them out a gigantic image, which deprives them of what they are trying to steal, as well as making sure their page downloads very slowwwwwww.

...which, uh, robs you of even more bandwidth.

You sure told her off. Uh-huh.

aka chook fucker

It's the principle of the matter. I clearly say I don't want to serve my images for other web sites or users. Ally has created a post that is attempting to steal from me.... I know you clever people on this thread are capable of wrapping your well developed minds around the concept of theft -- especially since so much of it is going on around here...

If someone removes the illegal and unauthorized link to my site, I'll happily go away. if the next time I happen to browse my web logs I see evidence of continued theft, I'll throw together a little perl script to collect a bunch of image tags from your various message threads and send email to the owners of those domains to be sure they are aware of the theft of bandwidth and possible copyright violations. The fact that many copyrighted images, including mine, have embedded comments indicating a copyright should make it easy to find some stolen images on your site...

I don't have a legal team, and I'm sure folks reading this don't have a legal team. I know Disney has a legal team. Have you ever seen how rabid Disney is about protecting their copyrights and trademarks? Got any pictures of Mickey Mouse around here? I'm sure you friendly message board types don't have assets worth going after, but what about those companies that make *this* message board possible?

Of course I would send a copy of any evidence of illegal activity on this board to the folks at keypoint (http://www.keypoint.com.au/) who so kindly provide your little message board a home. And let's not forget those nice people at Labyrinth Connections that host your DNS. They should be made aware of any potential legal liabilities arising from their apparent charitable hosting of this site. I'd somehow feel guilty if I didn't also look into who the upstream providers are for your netblock...

Yes, I'm a prick. Yes, I'm pissed off. and YES, what you guys are doing is WRONG. Make all the jokes you want, but remove the link to shooter.net

I don't have any illusions about how effective my actions may be, but I know that I wouldn't want some prick pointing out to everyone and anyone (especially those people nice enough to host my site) how I was breaking the law... I'd just take the fucking link down and be done with the matter...

Cheers,

Stevem

^ read dumbass

Funny that I mentioned Disney. A simple glance at the image tags on this page reveals:

a_tyson_i.jpg

it's from: http://espn-i.starwave.com

espn is a Disney company....

I'd suggest that you read:

http://disney.go.com/corporate/legal/terms.html

If you are smart, you'll simply shut up and remove the offending link from your site. You guys are in the wrong. Period.

Disney hasn't bothered with you because you haven't hit their radar. Yet. Your providers haven't been bothered by your rampant casual THEIVERY because it hasn't appeared on their radar. Yet. While you may or may not get shot down, I can make sure you show up on several radar screens like a freaking 747...

Jon Williams totally OTFM.

Details here: http://www.simplebits.com/archives/2004/02/04/common_sense_and_image_lifting.html

omg geeta, thats so cute.

Instead of flipping me shit, one of the knowledgeable users of this board could have indicated how I could request a moderator to remove the offending link. Somone could have said, "Oh, we're doing something illegal that pisses you off? I'm sorry, we'll stop." I know, that's asking entirely too much... But come on guys, there is so much petty thievery going on around here that it seems like this site must be run by the government... If someone complains the smart thing to do is point them to a moderator, or even better, make a request for moderation of the offending link, apologize politely and be done with it.

But since you guys have chosen to not do the "smart thing", you've *really* pissed me off, and I will be satisfied with nothing less than removal of the offending material.

Hopefully someone will have the good sense to rectify this situation. Trust me, it'll be a lot more difficult to deal with the fallout from a few well placed emails from a pissed off prick than it would to do the "right thing".

Cheers,

Stevem

Also, if there is any whiff of abuse or slander on the part of someone puroprting to be considering legal action, it doesn't look very good for the complainant. It could, in fact, be seen as extortion based on certain precedents.

-- Allyzay (notthatyanceydoesntdeservei...), February 18th, 2004 1:49 AM. (later)

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY IT NEEDS TO STAY UP!

You (and the others) just don't get it. That's what pisses me off. You say, 'Linking to images on remote servers is one of the ways that the web "works." it's built into the spec. it's NOT illegal and it's NOT "thievery," no matter how much you would like it to be.'

When there is a specific notice, specific language forbidding linking to images on my site, and cleary requiring my permission before using any of my images, it IS wrong to do so, and it is a copyright violation. Copyright violations are "intellectual property theft". I'm not just blowing smoke, it's true.

'if you tell us who the photographer is we'll credit him or her'

Please pluck a clue off the tree. simply giving a photo credit doesn't relieve you of responsibility to ask PERMISSION before using someone elses property. My images, yes I'm the photographer, are my property. You couldn't take my car and then defend yourself against car theft charges by saying, "well, I put a sign on the car door saying it belonged to Stevem" Taking without permission is theft.

'but if you want the image gone from this thread, please just edit your .htaccess file! damn!!'

No. Simply ask permission before using someone elses work. It's really not that hard. If Ally would have dropped me an email and asked to use the image, my standard response is, sure, go ahead. But that didn't happen. It's not my responsibility to prevent you from breaking the law. It is your responsiblity to obey the law.

Since you guys have finally removed the offending link, I"ll be leaving you all alone to your own little game. However, I hope that this ugly episode will at least make you think about asking for permission before helping yourself to the work and bandwidth of others.. And gawd, if someone complains about copyright/bandwidth issues, be nice. remedy the situation and apologize...

Oh, one last thing, when you do a google image search, pay attention to the line that says, "This image may be subject to copyright."

Cheers!

Stevem

http://community.webshots.com/html/violation.htm

Yup, it's that simple, post the link. Now I could have cut and pasted the content from that page right here in this little text window, but that would have been a no-no.

By the way, any admins paying attention to this thread. It would demonstate a modicum of due dilligence if you were to have a readily available link to your policy regarding complaints of copyright violation. A somewhat murky "moderation request" will likely not provide you with anywhere near the protection (and ease of use for victims) that the above reference link would provide to you... Just a thought, and a demonstration of how to be a good Netizen...

Ciao!

Stevem

No. Simply ask permission before using someone elses work. It's really not that hard. If Ally would have dropped me an email and asked to use the image, my standard response is, sure, go ahead. But that didn't happen. It's not my responsibility to prevent you from breaking the law. It is your responsiblity to obey the law.

This is like, say, owning a nice home with lots of nice things in a sketchy neighborhood, but refusing to lock the doors because you think people should know better than to steal things because, after all, stealing is obviously wrong. Once you've been relieved of your car, VCR and jewelery, sure, the theft is the robber's fault, no question. But you'll still look pretty silly -- perverse, even -- for not locking your damned doors.

http://bs20002.tripod.com/006.jpg

You still haven't apologized for stealing stevem's name.

PORTENTS PEOPLE! PORTENTS! ICH BIN EIN DOPPELGANGER

http://www.jagweb.com/jaguarmodelclub/TVjags/Quadrophenia-1.jpg

http://unit.bjork.com/77island/77island/images/alarmcall61big.jpg

hahaha... the evil Stevem walked into the ILX bees nest!

The other problem is that it's easier to configure your site so that people can't link images from it than it is to yell at people who link images from your site.

http://news.com.com/2100-1025-1023629.html

We're not really profiting from posting Mr. Evil Stevem's pictures though, so I think we're more likely to fall under fair use.

No worries, Allyl. Somethingawful.com, UNLIKE THE ABOVE STEVEM, knows the way of the .htaccess issue, and has a very clever way of dealing with it.

They just replace external image links to a link to a huge pic of a swollen cumming cock-head. Thee best way to teach a lesson, and come out look K-COOL (if not K-CRUEL)

Just ask Chris V.

"And take your sucky Jr. High photogirl pictures with you you skinny white Ho."

Isn't the problem here that he pays for bandwidth, so if we use his bandwidth then it's costing him money? Or do I misunderstand?

Yeah, but I use his bandwidth by looking at the picture in its original setting too. Much more of it, in fact.

http://www.wasteoftechnology.com/motw/williamatherton/peck.jpg

http://www.kuci.org/~brianm/ile/peck.jpg

ilx in a nutshell

Actually he stated numerous times that he didn't give a shit about that so honestly I'm not 100% sure what his issue is besides people seeing his picture without him getting a counter hit on his website. I'd understand more if it was the bandwidth thing, though not really why he was dealing with it in such a fashion (the same shit happens to me all the time and I just don't even give a fuck to be honest, like as been pointed out it's really easy to fix if I cared about it).

On the one hand the "other" stevem says he complained when the found out somone was leeching (his word not mine, but mighty appropriate) from their site. And the reason that the he was upset? Because he wasn't getting CREDIT for his work. And you guys say you don't understand what my issue is. I want credit for my work! DAMNIT! I want control of how my artistic output is used. It's my right to have both of those! But then the other stevem goes on to say that rather than leeching now he copies the images and serves them off his web server, and that he *might* (though likely not) stop using the image if the owner comlained. So he's willing to ask someone to stop using his work or give him credit, buy may not afford somone else that same courtesy? Internally inconsistent.

Regarding the bandwidth issue. Just because your message board didn't tax my bandwidth means it is okay to "leech" some of it? By this (failed) logic the next time you go to the ATM and take out a hundred bucks from your overflowing bank account, you won't mind if I reach into your wallet and extract a 20 dollar bill?

It is precisely this attitude of entitlement and open flouting of legal and ethical behavior that I find so offensive. The hypocritical element is just frosting on your cake of moral turpitude. Have you people never heard of the Golden Rule? Did your mommy fail to teach you that it's wrong to take something from somone (even if they have plenty) without their permission? Did your daddy somehow forget to teach you that stealing is wrong? Someone absolutely forgot to impart empathy or responsibility upon you... But judging by your moral development, you're only 10 years old, so there's still hope.

It's the WORLD WIDE WEB. If you don't want people linking to your images, this is a bad place to keep them.

To paraphrase Chuck D, it's like dropping a whole bunch of M&Ms and freaking out when people pick them up.

When Julia Child and The People's Court combine efforts.

As it is, I now *strongly* wonder if he tries this same sort of tactic every time for every potential link he's gotten.

http://www.deansabatino.com/images/portfolio/portfolio_richard.gif

But no, you guys can't take a hint. You've collectively downloaded that big ass file more than 1200 times since August. at a toal bandwidth utilization of about 3.3GB. My site generally pushes about 4 or 5gb+ a day... That's why it's colocated. Regardles of your bandwidth consumption (which would have been significantly lower if you had got the little 640x480 image you were requesting), you are not entitled and have not been granted permission to use my images or bandwidth... Yes, it really is the principle of the matter.

Then when I started looking around and saw how casually and OFTEN you guys steal images, I couldn't believe my eyes! And then there was this "fuck you" attitude of "it's our right to take from you whatever we want" that just amazed me!

So check this shit out... I know you all think I'm whacked outta my gourd... Even if I am whacked outta my gourd, What I'm saying about copyright and usage is real. So here's the real deal:

if you are interested in understanding copyright laws/issues:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

pay special attention to the section on inlining in this link:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/linkright.html

It really is a good idea for your guys to responsibly address this issue. Add a link to the front page of the site that says "click here to protest the use of your content" or some such thing. And then nicely remove any protested content. Instead of inlining images, post links to html pages so the owner, creator, person doing the work, gets credit. Ask permission if you want to use an image. Probably 98% of the time, the owner will say, fine. I've only turned down one request for using one of my images, and that guy was a stock broker! Grow up be responsible, put money in a savings account, use condoms when bumping uglies, Don't run with scissors in your hand, don't play leapfrog with unicorns. stop and smell the kine buds... Live love and prosper...

Just don't steal my fucking shit! ;\

fitter, better, happier....etc

and to quote A Fistful of Yen, "Visit a dairy, and learn how milk is made!"

Your objections/position/suggestions have been noted.

This is also regardless of it happening on thousands of other web forums, its wrong there also i would say. Though this does raise the following issue. if the boardowner is to be held responsible for this, does that mean that i, if i so wish, could i post a million of steves pictures to a board i didnt like, in order to get them into trouble? (i dont wish to do this, but it interests me how much responsibility the siteowners must take (of course yahoo ran into a similar problem with their groups thing)

also, i think the majority of the pictures here (not on this thread, which i havent seen until now, but on the board in general) are actually taken from members own sites (there are a lot of people on this board, a tiny minority of which are on this thread).

http://www.shooter.net/folsom%20street%20fair%202003/source/17.html

i've found alt-stevem's lecturing on copyright and ownership dull, familiar, predicatble and patronising as i suspect we all have. as if we were not aware of the 'rules' when posting images on here (stealing/sharing copyright material)...does he not realise many people just don't care about that even though they're aware of the law. okay so the issue is settled now and the complaint was only made on a matter of (petty imo) principle but i hope i at least clarified my position, however wrong you may deem it to be - though i reserve my right to change my mind obv. - maybe this should've been a new thread already.

He said it.

Regarding your perspective on using/modifying/etc other people work. I see no problem with that. But by your own definition, when you guys link to my images in such a way that my site is never visible to the end user, you are clearly using my work whether small or large effort, and giving me absolutely no credit for it. Trust me, I do a bit of perl coding. cpan.org is my friend. I don't believe in creating any script from scratch. But when I use a module or script that someone else has written, I take the time to drop them an email and say thank you... No, I am not an angel. I've reached a point in my life where it's easier and less worries to pay for my sattelite channels rather than get a decoder. I pay for shareware that I use, and when I needed office for my mac, I convinced my boss to buy it for me. As I've gotten older, pushing 40 now, I have become much more aware that people who create things are not adequately rewarded. I have a bunch of mp3's believe it or not, if there is something I download hat I like and will listen to more than once or twice, I usually buy the CD... Although I'll likely buy it used on Amazon, so really the artists and the record company don't get shit.

I think the biggest thing that I disagree with you on is your attitude when confronted about using someone elses stuff. If you get caught. be responsive. if the owner wants you to stop, then stop. If you feel it at all, apologize...

and finally, is it really so burdensome to ask for permission before using something, or posting a link instead of an inline pull? Is it that hard to be sure that the person whose work you are using gets credit for the work?

I'm assuming the original link from this board was for a photo of SF. if Ally had emailed and said that you guys were having a dick comparison sessions between several large cities, and did I have any images to offer, I would have been happy to come up with a half a dozen really nice shots of SF. I would have felt good about it. Ally would have had photos... It all would have been cool. But that's not how it worked...

fwiw... If you follow politics.. The Republicans released a photo about a week ago of John Kerry sitting a couple of rows behind Jane Fonda (aka to vets as Hanoi Jane) at an anti war rally in the 70s. The effort was to link him to her radicalism. Only problem was that they never even met at that rally, and it was two years before Jane Fonda went to Viet Nam. The photo was taken 30 years ago. That photographer, because he has partnered with Corbis is making money on that image today. Corbis will chase down anyone who attempts to use that photo without the correct permissions.Because of copyright laws, and his ability to enforce or have them enforced, the photographer is making money on an image that he probably never made much money on before now.

Lot of dick swinging in this thread.

I think Mike's and my assumption upthread a bit just got proved.

Astounded a the amount of copyright violation happening/condoned on this thread, pissed off because of the 'tude here and the casual way you steal from me and others, and entertained while confounding you all... It's been a full fun filled day.

One point that I wanted to make is this: You (the generic you) may think that you can flaunt copyright law and use a persons images/content any way you want with impunity. On one level you are right, you are probably a punk kid with no assets worth chasing down. However the community in which you operate, meaning the provider that hosts thisserver, and other businesses are vulnerable, and a company like cnn or Disney will pursue them if someone makes enough noise. Wouldn't you feel real stupid if your provider pulled the plug on this board for violating their acceptable use policy after a nasty letter from Disney's copyright enforcement office? It's not beyond the realm of possibilities. It may not be quite the right page, but this link should give you an idea of the kind of legaleze your are up against... http://www.keypoint.com.au/agreement.html

You (the generic you and the community inclusive you) are vulnerable and accountable for your actions online. Period.

Now you're just going out of your way to be an obnoxious sockfucker.

and entertained while confounding you all...

You do realise how ridiculous and pompous this sounds, right?

You spend your off-hours playing RPG games, don't you?

For the record, almost the entirety of my posts and I'm pretty sure most of JBR's posts (being as we have the most amount of pic posts on this thread) are our own fucking photos off our own fucking webpages, you obnoxious cockfarmer. Jesus Christ, get over yourself. Your fucking image was deleted and, quite frankly, no one in the entire world would've been nasty to you if you hadn't come in and acted like an jackoff ramming a bee stick up his ass from the get go. You couldn't even see the words "Moderation Request" on the bottom of the page and you rush in and lose your mind on the reading skills of people who, quite honestly, didn't go to your page to begin with. Whoops, sorry.

On the upside, I was afraid you were a NYer. But you aren't! So no blight on us. I was afraid you were taking a careful stance to prove Nick right about us.

It is precisely this attitude of entitlement and open flouting of legal and ethical behavior that I find so offensive. The hypocritical element is just frosting on your cake of moral turpitude.

Mr. Steve on the law, part 2:

stop and smell the kine buds

I do photography too, and I put it online. I agree, credit should be respected, but why would I complain if my pics appeared elsewhere - its good exposure. "But no one knows theyre mine!" you might say.

Well, thats why I'd be smart and put a clear copyright watermark with my name etc ON EVERY PHOTO ON MY SITE. There, your getting credit problem is solved, and if you dont mind about bandwidth, what other issue is there?

Sure being asked is nice but were it me, I'd be pleased to see my pics with my name on them all over the web personally.

http://bitchcakes.topcities.com/garethfap/phoneconfusion.jpg

Ally and Tom could sue me for stealing their infinitely amusing fake e-mail thing

Misstatements of law by lay-persons v. Failure to teach legal principles to citizens generally FITE

I don't care if 90% of the image tags point to images owned by you guys. It's very apparent to me that many of the images posted in this thread are being stolen. I have no interest in filing lawsuits against you penniless little worms, but every time you go and shoot off your mouth about what a sock fucker I am and all that sanctimonoius crap you're spewing, I'm tempted to send out an email to each of the victims of your theft - including the big guys that might just be looking for a good test case to establish some case law. Isn't your ISP the biggest one in Autstralia?? Hmmmm.... Wanna see if all the people you are stealing from think what you are doing is cool? I don't think so. Also, since I've so clearly spelled out the unlawful activity (yeah, debate it in front of a civil judge if you want, I consider it unlawful and there is case history to back me up), when the complaints hit your provider etc etc, it'll be clear that you guys were notified, warned, and had ample opportunity to remedy the widespread copyright violations that are all over this thread -- and yet you took no action...

But never fear, I'm sure your provider is willing to fight the good fight for you guys, go to bat against the legal department at ESPN/Disney/CNN etc to establish that what you guys are doing is just fine and dandy... Sure, that's exactly what your provider is gonna do... If I were you guys, I'd be looking forward to it. I'm sure it'll be exciting...

You guys are fools. I've been having fun pounding home my point that what you guys are doing is wrong, even if it's commonplace. The quality of the arguments from your side have been good -- for a bunch of fourth grade special education students. I have grown weary of you all and this topic.

And yes, since this whole thing started out with you stealing from me, I have tried to be an asshole to you all. Of course this whole thing has been ridiulous and pompous. Thanks for playing along... Fuck you very much.

Note, this is not a threat, this is not extortion. If you guys continue to link to images on my site, I wll search for and find every instance of image theft, deep linking and any other copyright violations and notify the victims (I'm sure they'll be pleased to know you've been punking them) as well as all of your providers, they have acceptable use policies. I'm sure they'll enjoy seeing the postings where you say, "fuck it, I know it's wrong but I'm doing it anyway, what are you gonnna do about it sock fucker??". That is not a threat, that is a promise. Leave me and my site alone, and I'll leave you alone. Fuck with me with me and you better hope you don't so much as spit on the sidewalk next to the building where your server is located... Because I'll be there to call attention to it.

I'm outta here...

Have a nice life kids...

stevem

stevem isn't an asshole. he only has hair.

When was the first ILM post? Sometime in 2000?

x-post. : /

And if Labyrinth is "Australias largest ISP" I'll eat my hat. My several friends who work there will find that terribly hilarious actually.

I mean, good lord, Trayce OTM, as someone trying to get attention for your photography, do it in a positive fashion. I'd be pleased too, and am pleased when this happens to me. If the issue is bandwidth, which happened when I was at the newspaper, a polite email was generally all it took to stop anything from going on. I sure as hell wouldn't have gone on a website ranting maniacally about how I'm going to take down all and sundry supposed illiterates garnering myself and the publication I worked for a bunch of ill-will and ridicule.

It's just horrible fucking marketing and as a fan of popular shite, I can't condone that.

can we just delete alt.stevem's pics and links to and just lock the thread now?

*acting cool like I don't already know*

The Copyrighted images are not being hosted on this server. No Copyright violations are occurring. You have no recourse here.

There there, you just need some wawa and your nookie and your blankie.

Hot Times: The carping about summer in New York City has already begun so it's about time to begin the contrarian’s response—I love summer in the city.

Opera in the park, with bits of cheese and chilled Sancerre in plastic cups. Lingering lunches in shaded sidewalk bistros. Rooftop parties overserving beer out of garbage cans filled with ice and sand. Sunrise whiskeys with bartenders in the Rockaways. Girls in short skirts with beads of sweat on the small of their backs. Falling asleep on the lawn alongside the Hudson River. Aperitifs at A60. Midday movies to escape the humidity. Seared tuna salad and buffalo mozzarella and three pinot grigio lunches. The song of the summer. Pretending the subway doesn’t exist. Dancing at the Bulgarian bar until your clothes stick to your everything. Bloomsday breakfast Guinness. Poolside rooftop mojitos. Kids playing whiffle ball in the park. Rounds of lights and darks at McSorely’s. Backyard barbeques. Churchyard sangrias. Pints of lager outside the Ear. Steamy shagging. Belmont Stakes. Publishing girls drinking at noon on Fridays. Emerging from a perspiration and beer soaked dive bar into the crisp pre-dawn air. Summerstage beertent. Making out in taxis, aroused from the sudden application of air-conditioning. Shakespeare in the Park. Champagne breaknight breakfasts in Inwood Park. Salted Tecantes in a Chinatown Mexican restaurant. Smoking cigarettes in the Goodworld alley garden. Flirting with the daughters of firemen in Breezy point. Long days spent in dark bars. Chilled gazpacho. Watermelons soaked with vodka. Interns with improbably fashionable clothes and the spending habits of people who are spending other people’s money. Old flames. New infernos. Tar beach sunbathing. Avoiding parades with all day bruches that turn into all night bacchanals. Chasing the ghost of Dylan Thomas at the Whitehorse tavern. Fireworks from an Avenue B rooftop. Wilting while watching the Yankees. Midnight oysters at Milk & Honey.

Gear up, lads and lasses. We’re going in.

BOO!

just about everything else is fine by me, tho.

http://southsidecallbox.com/images/newyork/tp.jpg

So, "Iowa: A place to grow (marijuana)"

BTW, D4rni3lle sold out and left Iowa, anyway.

Hello again. Sorry to email again so soon, but it seems the new phone number has already made it's way onto the internet.
When I opened Milk and Honey in January of 2000 it was not reservation only, and had no lock on the door. It was open to anyone who knew the address, and attracted a community of people with one thing in common: knowing how to drink and remain polite, to each other and the residents of Eldridge Street.

The barrage of constant write ups forced us to start running reservations, in order to prevent crowds outside from bothering our landlord (who lives directly upstairs.) Changing the number each time it was published worked for several years to keep the chain of word of mouth relatively strong.

Now, however, with the advent of blogging, there is no chance for that to work. Since the number change of a few weeks ago, my staff actually report an increase in first time customers, who have evidently never heard that it was a quiet bar, merely that it was a trendy one. The landlord has given us his first noise complaints in almost 9 years of business, all regarding the conversation of smokers outside or people exiting loudly.

Over the years our "first call, first serve" policy, while being fair on the face of it, I now realize was quite unfair to our regulars. The people were awake at 9 AM to send in the earliest text message and people who quietly exit the bar at 2 AM seem seldom to be the same people. In an effort to get back the small, like-minded community that we had in the beginning (and regain the quiet that we need to get our year-by-year lease renewed,) I am taking steps to convert Milk and Honey into a private social club.

This process will take over a year, involving the granting of a Social Club Charter by New York State.

In the meantime, we will adopt a half measure that allows us to remain within the law. If membership in such a program interests you, read on. If not, for the next year or so, reservations will still be available on [REDACTED].

M&H Regular Program

Four of our six tables will be allocated to our regulars, who may make an advance reservation, call twenty minutes prior, or just stop by without calling. Regulars will be given a key to the front door. If there are no seats available, you may lock up the next table, and go to White Star or another nearby bar and we will call you when the table is ready. There will be no standing room, and no more advance wait list.