has ilx gotten FUCKING CREEPY lately? (was originally "has ilx become more hostile to women?")

like¿
personally i heart women - esp. our lovely ilxors.

Yes, there is a frat boy factor here that I, as a female, do my best to ignore, because there simply is no changing it. Many threads view women as sex objects, the whole lezzing up thing, as if women's purpose is for giving zombie pineapple blow jobs, lots of misogyny and generalizing about "crazy" woman and girlfriends, etc etc, people of either sex who have "bitch" in their handle etc blah blah.

just about says it all really. as compared with ile's which is still dominated by the guys but at least has a SINGLE WOMAN in the top 50.

tep, just take a look at any ilm thread about a female artist in the last six months.

I was more digusted by the patronizing attitude toward the 14 year old girl.

I'm also the first person to point out when heteroboys are being homosocial (see Barbara Kruger's 'you construct elaborate rituals to allow yourselves to touch the skin of other men'). I do think this on occasion when guys start nerding/leching out on ILM but not much here...

So please give me the respect of hearing this opinion, because the thread asked for it, and leave it there, as do I.

does David Hasselhoff not prance around in his speedo here? Do Geir and Jim DeRo get ripped on for their physical qualities?

If the question is "Is ILX more hostile to women", should the WOMEN be posting here?

this is further proof.

I think this pertains to a larger issue than just men's attitudes to women, though women do bear the brunt of it. But there's a general trend to treat EVERYONE in entertainment/pop culture as product and it's partly their own creation for so aggressively marketing themselves.

'and then they lez up' remains funny (although my girlfriend may not feel the same haha).

does anyone do this for male celebs?

Also in ILE especially we have a relatively high percentage of women who are sex-positive feminists who aren't afraid to admire and even objectify women! I really like hearing about people enjoying their sexuality, talking about what turns them on, etc. Obv if R. Kelly started posting, we'd call him on it though.

What annoys me is two or three guys getting into a one-line after one-line bitchfest, replete with heavily sarcastic 'shockah' remarks, insults, and intentional gross misreadings of previous posts. That's not a hostile environment, it's a childish and stupid one. And if people who act that way can't restrain themselves from getting in one more cheap shot at a guy they don't even know, because they just can't STAND not getting the last word, why talk to them?

and i think the idea that ilx (and ilm in particular, and i'm certainly guilty of perpetuating it in certain instances) has no frathouse/lockeroom vibe is ridiculous.

And all you ever see people do on Entertainment Tonight is go to movies. Sure, there's flashing lights and limosines, but, like, I know lotsa people who go to movies.

I don't see the threads about guys that are particularly more inspired than the ones about women. People might not note that neil young is sexy or not, but what they do say is usually along the lines of "he's cool."

Wasn't there a Sark apprciation thread and 10 or 20 for julian Casablancas?

I'd guess the reason people keep going on about the lack of The Girl at FAPs is because they're uncomfortable with the idea of being a boys' own club. Which is fair enough, but it can get a little... overbearing.

http://www.sonymusic.pl/grafika/specjaly/wywiady/d/cohen.jpg

Do please leave me out of this. My perceived chasttizing of young Caitlin has nothing to do with gender.

(Leonard IS hott! or hawt. or whatever.)

Maybe I'm part of the problem!

i bash bill o'reilly as much as i do a.c. does that make me anti-catholic?

the coulter-bashing stuff does i guess get into interesting territory as far as misogyny goes, though. one could argue that she gets as much airtime as she does (except when she's running away from debating joe conason) because of her blonde valkyrie image. but one could also argue that she tends to espouse totally bugfuck opinions that wouldn't get airtime if they were as heralded by, say, your typical montana militia member.

Hey, I was the #2 poster on ILM for like a week, so don't say I didn't try. I'd post more these days but really the board's just sucking several khaki duffelbags full of dicks. Sorry.

cozen meant we miss nabisco. and we do!

is this insiders' club tone maybe responsible for the dearth of female posters?
I found it intimidating at first. Now I pounce on random googlers like a hungry person on free snacks.

It's cryptic and wonderful. A strange hieroglyph.

Yeah, and that's far preferable to making some smarmy in-joke, I agree.

I suppose I could call myself a feminist at the end of the day, but I hate how that word has been co-opted by the Third Wave, so I'd have to preface the usage of the word by saying I'm more of a Margaret Sanger-style feminist than a Gloria Steinem-style feminist. And I don't find anything offensive whatsoever about the word "bitch". Maybe it's because there are groups of women who have reclaimed the word for their own, or maybe it's because I look up to the majority of the women at the Heartless Bitches International site, but I don't see anything wrong about the word "bitch". Maybe something akin to "stupid bitch" or "moronic bitch" would raise my ire, but I'm absolutely certain none of the males who post here would ever consider that proper in the first place.

As for where I post -- well, I love ILE because of its inherent off-topic nature. I tend to get off-topic quite a lot, and this forum suits me well because others do as well and I don't have to excuse myself for straying from any one topic. I like ILM too, but I find it a bit more intimidating because the chances are good that at least half of the artists mentioned in that forum are going to be ones I've never heard of before, and because of the large number of Big Names who post there. (Strangely enough, even though I *should* add Ned in the list of "Big Names", I really don't because he's so down-to-earth and friendly and it's so easy to forget Who He Is.)

If this is what you consider "hosility to women", though, wow, I feel like I can handle getting you lot riled up. I have not for one second felt as though I was being mistreated or like my presence wasn't welcomed because of my gender. Wow. I suppose this means, "score one for the sensitive new age males".

as for saying celebs are sexy, i don't mind. but then i embarassingly went on and on about jarvis. i hope he's not hurt over that, but somehow i don't think he cares. as for people saying it's preferable to like real people, that's obvious IRL, but i personally think it's less offensive than going on and on about someone who's, say, on the board which i think would be uncomfortable for everyone.

My best friend yesterday told me I looked like a grocer at an organic health food store.

(but yes, this place is getting dumber/LCDer/more tasteless/tactless/charmless and is right now suffering from my-favorite-posters-are-on-vacation/hiatus and lots-of-new-people-who-may-be-old-people-and-are-annoying effects. not that i'm not oh no nu-ilx oh no.)

i especially don't get the comment about political discourse. explain.

Then again I do accept I may be thinking too much, I am being quite paranoid recently.

Or so the VOICES say.

And to be honest, I love some of those endless boy vs boy debates, especially when at the end they fag up.

I can understand how that can be off putting to male/female posters.

I don't think that, like jess is saying, well 'just look at the last six months' worth of threads on female artists: i don't think it just got worse like that, there has always been a comment here or there that is 'questionable' but if it carries ppl get called up on it.

but anyway, those things add up.

I think the thread on taking other ppl to shows was a bit of an overreaction: many male posters took female company and then they gave 'problems' but one or two female posters did post (a bit late on the thread i guess) on how guys they took gave 'problems'. I think that was the numbers of male/female posters and not misogny or anything 'questionable'.

i try to hate everybody equally--there'll be no picking of favourites here.

btw I absolutely liked jess' answer to N's question bcz i'm almost certain N was joking.

Looking back on health-food-store grocers I have known, that could be HELLA compliment.

eh? (especially on the 'evening-at-the-imrprov' bit of course).

-"Bitch" does not offend me. It's a word and a pretty tame one at that.

-"Lezzing up" is funny. Again, no offense.

-I rarely visit/post on ILM b/c nothing bores the shit out of me than reading other people's writing about music. Besides writing about it myself.

Err no - I had no idea what Cozen's post meant. I thought the 'MISS' thing was something about the female title 'Miss'. Jess intimidates me quite a lot but I don't think it's because I'm a woman man.

The no women at FAPs thing is probably a case of people taking the women who do turn up (like Sarah) for granted, unfortunately. At recent FAPs I've seen Sarah, Alix, Anna, Cis, Kate, Vicky, Suzy - but certainly most of the rain-or-shine core attendance is men.

A possibility is that ILX has got generally stupider and lamer in recent months and that has led to the 'jockishness' too. One problem with online communities is that the more blustery members tend to drive away or make uncomfortable the less blustery ones, without any notion that they're doing it: I am probably guilty of this myself. I'm not sure that there's anything we can do about it without moderating the message board a lot more heavily than has been the case previously.

i'm totally for jumping on people when they're being sexist/racist/homophobic whatever. but there are ways of acting like a jock which don't necessarily involve those things, and they make the boards just as inhospitable. being a bully is a pretty good example. sycophantism is another example (this isn't entirely the subject of worship's fault but theres usually a fair amount of playing on it and encouraging it).

i don't give that much of a rats ass about men lusting after famous women. its got fuck all to do with me. what i do find ridiculous is that the biggest jock-types on this board are the ones who seem to think they aren't jock types just because they point out sexism occasionally.

the post of the naked chick upthread is another great example of hostility--ooo this can't be serious...we'll show the women of ILE how seriously we take them by.....

.. posting some porno--i mean how exactly do you THINK it makes women feel to have to look at that picture on a thread where they have been invited to talk about their experience with hostility/sexism on ILE? Gee, if we don't laugh we are humorless? I won't be bullied into saying it is funny.

how can you trivialize a trivial issue?

*opens the velvet rope*
*escorts all to the Hate Orbit thread*

you can come back when you stick to the thread topic.

Ditto.

I don't really consider that men in general on the boards are more hostile to women than other men, it does seem to be that people get a reaction due to how people see them as individuals (especially w/r to posters of long standing) and it's too busy on ILM for me to lurk there much to see any pack mentality sexism. But then again 95 per cent of the population are completely shite at expressing themselves coherently and that jumps up to a whopping 99.5 per cent of people when you move into gender and sexuality territory, where various social factors prevent people from expressing hostility/love/whatever towards/about the other sex.

I am, however, a kamikaze feminist (when feminism is no longer needed, bye-bye feminism, if you draw things out somehow you need the woman to be a victim FOREVER to validate something in you, or you are in the feminism heritage industry), I'm the girl who wants to walk up to Germaine Greer and say thanks for the memories, but let's put you out of a job by actually doing proactive things rather than taking a cushy place in the chattering classes. If I perceive sexism in a post, I will sometimes wait for someone of the same gender to criticise so it doesn't always go boys vs. girl, but I usually weigh in. There are a lot of posters here who are active feminists with principles, but also they are people that understand in-jokes AS SUCH and don't automatically feel excluded or teased when men talk about women in an objectifying way, and otherwise have better things to do than argue with spotty lads about Chan Marshall's minge (I am confident that Chan could wipe the floor with any of them, having spoken to her a few times).

If there are tumbleweeds after a woman posts, she's generally made a weighty point, or they are laughing at something Ally has said and have had to go get paper towels for the coffee spit. I give the people here some credit for dignifying my posts with some contemplation.

Also Orbit (have just read the argy-bargy which happened during post composition) it's really immature to cast aspersions on other posters. Changing the subject doesn't make your points any more valid, it just shows a certain inelegance.

For the record, Orbit is probably referring to me. However it's misleading that I "saves all his private chats with female ILXors to disk". I save chats from everyone: male, female, or otherwise.

....

the offer still stands, you know.

just saying...

*whistles away, meekly*

On the other hand, to treat them as an object shows a certain lack of understanding that, yes, those are actually people masquerading as objects, just like all those random googlers or the kids who come into "whatever" chat are also people.

suzy you didn't actually read the threads, did you?

it's like slash and burn:
flowers, weeds, the whole damned field
in pursuit of...what?

ILXhalla,
where the true and noble ones
bravely toiled, laughed, sang?

I was never there,
so I don't remember it.
and did it exist?

...

You say that as if they aren't.

For me, the former degenerates into creepiness, but the latter doesn't. I actually find it reassuring that people care about music, as much as they do, as a hobby. The former can be cruel.

so why do you think this was a failure tom? Is it bcz of the so-called 'creepyness'. I'd say its the music-geek attitude.

I still want to know why jess thought the taking other ppl to shows thread was so bad?

I think this thread could be translated as: 'I hate ILX but I don't know how to quit posting?' (bcz it still comes with one or two threads and it has ppl in it that he likes).

And, as an LSAT tutor, I picked up on Orbit's crafty little legalism -- the clearly insinuated but denotatively skirted implication that the poster saved only posts from females -- the instant I read it, but didn't say anything because I made the seemingly sensible assumption that she was just being forgivably sloppy rather than unforgivably sleazy. Unless she was talking about someone other than Chris, I stand corrected and annoyed. In any event, in regards to her question about "why is a chat any different?", the answer is stultifyingly obvious: you can cut-and-paste a chat as an afterthought, with the exact same technology you were using to conduct the chat, for virtually no cost in time or money whatsoever. To record a phone conversation requires forethought, both in hooking up specialized equipment and deciding to record the conversation before it even takes place. The latter, for reasons I refuse to demean everyone here by explaining, is much creepier. Also, and perhaps this is just my own kinky trip, but I tend to find the lilt of my girlfriend's voice slightly more sensually evocative than the serifs of her Helvetica.

I'm reasonably certain, with her predictable blinkers, that the only semiotic message Orbit will get from this entire post is "Ah hates the womenfolk." So let me make this absolutely clear: I like women. I like a vast number of individual women, both ones I personally know and ones I admire as public figures. I like them as a aggregate class at least as much as I like men, not least because if you were a demographer examining my political profile, you would most likely assume I was one. I just hate Orbit. In fact, I'm starting to get the feeling that she wants to make the word "bitch" verboten because she's on some level aware that it's the only possible way that it won't be applied to her by both genders with an utterly justified clockwork consistency. This is just sad. I mean, it's not like you see me going around trying to ban the word "dickhead."

As for the larger issues of this thread re: creepiness and gender and such and such, I stand by my previous post. It's simply an infrastructural issue, and one that's easily remedied with existing software if anyone felt like making the effort. Having people respond to your idiotic blather = positive feedback. Having people simply click on "-1: Disingenuous" and then ignore you = negative feedback. This is not rocket surgery, people.

I've read this whole thread and as a female and reasonably recent poster I'll also say I'm not in the least offended by any posts or finding things "creepy lately", though I don't read ILM. But this is merely because I find ILM elitist, intimidating and in many cases inaccessible to me, because I'm not heavily involved enough in music/the music industry to be involved in much of whats said. Male/female has SFA to do with that fact.

I *am* however pissed off by people trying to speak for other people by saying we should be offended by recent trends. Why is it always the guys who cry "oooh crumbs, its getting creepy in here!" and not the women? I find myself scratching my head and thinking "it is?" and then getting the shits when certain posters all start shouting at each other over semantics and being too fucking sensitive. It is patronising to assume we (ie female posters) have to be mollycoddled and can't see when someone (like chaki upthread to di, for eg) is joking, or that memes like "lez up" and "HOTTT" are somehow sexist. Gimme a break, we're not that stupid.

In fact I'm suprised at some of the indignance on here. I love this place because people have a sensae of humour and I fear some of you either don't now or never did p'raps.

(gah xpost, damn slow typing)

OK here's my old lag's perspective, part 1834.

Re. Newcomers - I agree with N., they stop the place stagnating. The shorthand version of this discussion (which we've had again and again) is that longer-term posters getting lazy and glib is as much of a problem as newer posters being lame (if you care enough to think I'm talking about you then I'm almost certainly not - these are general points). My point upthread was about noisy posters driving away the quiet ones.

I think ILX used to be better. Not even in the dim and distant past of 2000-2001*, but quite recently, around the time of the server move. But 'better' or 'worse' isn't what gets me down - it's that ILX now reminds me more or less of the rest of the Internet: there's not all that much difference any more between ILE and the Pitchfork board in tone, or between ILE and Metafilter. That's fine in a way - those places are thriving and fun communities I'm sure - but the reason to be part of this one rather than any other internet community, the sense of difference, seems to be eroding. I may be being oversensitive.

*If you look at the really old ILM threads, they're mostly rubbish or at least pretty flat, it's a bunch of people who like each other slapping one another on the back for having great taste. It was a very comfortable and fun environment though for working out little differences and trying arguments out.

Oh yes, and I've been rumbled as a chat creepoid! I too save AIM convos and the like from males... and, uh, females too, and those of indeterminate gender. Eh. I pretty much save just about everything except those things that only take up a few lines and are thus not really worth saving. Really, they're Internet correspondences, much like this post and every single other post here, which btw will be saved for future viewing purposes SO OMG, I'M GOING TO READ THIS WHEN I'M OLDER. (And probably be embarrassed by what I've posted, but oh well.)

btw, I totally see a world of difference between this forum community and other forum communities online. Maybe it's because you're so used to dealing with this environment that you don't see anything different, but I do, and I'm appreciative of that fact.

Which is not to say we should put up with it and/or leave if it *did* get puerile or suddenly overrun with vicious trolls - that stuff is certainly offensive and annoying. But it doesn't happen here anywhere *near* the amount it does elsewhere, and I for one am glad ILX exists. It reassures me intelligent people with lots to say are actually out there in net-land :)

http://www.oai.de/Grafiken/loriot2.gif

heh. tom I love that kind of arg of yours but you're never gonna get a completely 'clean' place. Its a public board I'm afraid and its a matter of degrees and if ILX is better than usenet then that is something surely.

I was talking to other ppl on aim last night and it seemed that I was the only/one of the few among the posters that still had some enthusiasm for the place, especially ILM (I mean, i wouldn't cry if ILE was deleted tomorrow).

And you know if i have a problem with what someone is posting they will know abt it.

ILM is huge and i think quite varied, there seems to be plenty of interesting places to wander and the genuinely ugly moments are generally just that, moments

more often than not I figure I'm part of the problem, and even when I have some kind of argument or contribution I'll just sigh and forget it, thinking that someone will probably come along and make a similar point eventually. as a more limited participant I'm more interested in ideas than ppl trying to differentiate their own particular microbrand of wit. (not a real distinction since ppl's language and their ideas aren't seperable, and there ARE people who routinely make me laugh like I've been punched) too much of the latter and I just start skimming for names I recognize and then skip to something else.

Tom is fairly OTM about it being disappointing that ILX feels more typical of the internet as a whole now than it did a year ago. I can't really offer much of an explanation for this, except to suggest people interacting offboard can affect the dynamics of the place in unpredictable ways.

I'm sorry but this isn't the case as you probably are aware if you're honest, the madonna brit thread was fucking ridiculous, people pointing out how off some of the posts were and those responsible were totally oblivious and still posting "sex with girls, classic or dud" and stuff.

And the taking people to shows thing stank of yeah my dumb girlfriend, it has got really locker room, ILX.

I mean for christ's sake I'm so slow to say that, I'm about as laddish as anyone here but I persistently find some of the shit creepy as hell and just dumb, particularly lately. Aside from the casual sexism, the board has gone rock mad, but I guess there's no moral grounds to bitch about 3 Nirvana threads from.

It's not a case of starting your own threads or whatever, there is no "get off your arse son" quick fix answer which stops other people posting dumb shit, whatever way you want to spin it. And isn't the whole point of starting a thread liken this that the person in question is hardly arsed posting anymore.

Without starting a row, Julio are you ever or have you ever been open to the possibility that ILX changes over time and the tone of the board changes?

(You're right Dave, I did say that's only a personal gripe though.)

In that thread ppl just described some situations where it got 'uncomfortable' and bcz ILM has mostly male posters it was guys who took girlfriend (as in either friend or partners sense). I guess i didn't read it like that.

I agree abt some of the comments in the chan/ madonna thread that i loked at and esp some of the other on courtney and avril as well.

But OK: so some ppl think there is casual sexism, others are not offended. So what are we going to do abt it? Heavier moderation in future, and if so, who is going to actually take on the task.

''Aside from the casual sexism, the board has gone rock mad, but I guess there's no moral grounds to bitch about 3 Nirvana threads from.''

I do avoid most of those but if i don't like it I post threads on stuff i like (usually during the weekends but not today).

ppl change their minds (and their habits) off the ball and after the fact, when they're thinking about in the lull AFTER angrily defending themselves (this applies to me as much as anyone, insofar as i have been rude or jerky or dismissive or bullying or just wrong about something or someone) (also there have been posters i initially really disliked based on a single sentence who i later came to adore, so there you go)

the idea that ilx can free itself from the world is silly: it will sometimes seem very like the world, other times it's a haven

also: ppl yr not one of sometimes seem like they're acting in a pack when they're not (the thing i dislike most about the nu-ilx meme is that it assumes that NEWBIES ACT TOGETHER the way oldbies do, cz it's plainly and obviously untrue — even when bunches of foax have arrived from other boards in one blob, that blob has always changed shape and fallen apart w.time)

there's a lot of rock on ilm bcz rock has a historically intimate relationship with being "the music it's ok for ANYONE to write about a lot AND ARGUE ABOUT": writing abt soul or the avant-garde or whatever being comparatively dull/terrible/thought-free/anti-"democratic" — this is not a value judgment abt the music in question — it just gradually wins space

the reactionary explanation = a kind of gresham's law of discourse: "bad money drives out good"

but actually i think the "argue" aspect of the "bad money" constantly allows in new stuff also, as well as more of the lame same-old

if you have a default "i love me" or "i hate me" position, then you probably actually misjudge it very badly

and also you have to look at the age of some of the posters who post 'offensive' stuff too.

I'd say the people posting iffy stuff are all older than me, for starters. I mean I have to say no matter how much I criticise ILM it's still a wicked info resource and the only place I can talk about music I like really. But that said I hate the laddish feel at the mo, there's no liberalism with personality or laugh at yourself type stuff.

I think Mark, it's your initial judgement you go on with the thread, ie what is prompting me to post here?

But still the q remains: what do you do abt it beyond pulling ppl up on it on the thread?

x-post: I hope so, but threads get buried deep in that archive.

i'm still here, why? because culture is MINE too, and i'm fucked if i'm gonna leave it to you lot.

I like Slayer.

A year ago today:
http://ilx.wh3rd.net/archive.php?board=1&date=30%2F8%2F2002

Also, I agree that kittens are cute, and am still waiting for 'oops' to explain why my original post was creepy. Please, be specific.

I would again like to note that the original title of this thread was something along the lines of 'has ilx become more unfriendly to women' or something similar, because now those first few dozen posts look like we've taken a blanket statement about ilxors in general and only focused on creepiness as women experience it, which makes us look whiny and disregarding of men.

That said, I do think the air of 'creepiness' in general is more worth debating than its supposed effect on women, since most if not all of the women here have no problem fighting creepiness and hostility if they see it.

I am not hostile, thought I do defend myself whenb attacked, which seems a very popular thing to do around here. I will not apologize for finding the level of political/feminist awareness around here very low; and I will not apologize for being offended by locker-room/frat-boy/girl stuff from either sex. The name of this thread was originally "is ILX hostile to women". I am tired of being pounced on for anwsering a thread just because you don't like what I say.

Actually, I think this kind of problem is small and unavoidable. It's an open community, very lightly moderated, and there will be creeps and misogynists showing uo from time to time. I hope we make them feel sufficiently unwelcome that they fuck off pretty soon. I can't think what else we could do (though I do think we could do with one or two more female moderators - that's just my feeling, not an official view at all).

Personally, feminism comes into play for me as a lens through which I look on the world, but not one that I expect everyone to share. I draw resolve from feminism when trying to handle important (and delicate) issues such as, say, the treatment I've gotten from some professors who definitely can't handle having critical discussions with women - or from coworkers in technology fields who certainly are more apt to assume I am less competent than they are, or that I don't know many things, simply because I'm a woman. These issues matter to me, but even so I have to think seriously on how to handle them; jumping straight to confrontational mode often does more harm than good; putting those who have power (professors, bosses, etc.) in the position of having to defend themselves in response to allegations of sexism - a serious matter indeed - might win one a degree of satisfaction, but little gains in the long run, as a damaged professional relationship hurts me many, many times more than it hurts those who are already established and tenured.

Orbit, I regret that you've had to deal with silly and obscene attacking remarks like the one you've just quoted; I hadn't known that. Earlier in this thread, to me it simply came off as a sweeping exit from the discussion that attempted to throw the blame on everyone else for being flat-out hateful toward you, which I doubt seriously anyone is. I'm surely not. :)

hmm... yeah, good point.

Well that one started with Chris Barrus, but I think I did the right thing in confronting it so the misunderstanding could be uncovered.
Then Chris yells at me for "putting him in the middle" when he was the source of the info, and has copied and saved the chat from the female that he said prompted a phone call along the same lines. Now I figure if Chris Barrus, who I know pretty damn well, is calling someone because they are freaked out about comments to their breasts, then that is an issue worth clearing up. It was cleared up, but once again, I am cast as bad, evil person to hate.

I feel like I am being set up--people take potshots at me everywhere, that others don't see, and then sit back and wait for me to get attacked for responding.

Oh! I was wondering where this huge thread suddenly sprang up from. Yeah, can we please not change the thread name like that?

Then you should have noted your ignorance on the subject. Here's a free phrase for next time: "(and possibly male ILXors, I don't know)". If you find yourself incapable of constructing it on your own the next time the situation arises, feel free to cut and paste. I won't be offended.

"Second, it has ALWAYS been considered bad netiquette to post private emails in a public forum."

True. Utterly irrelevant, but true.

"And a private chat is also private; as I said when someone is having a phone conversation which they are recording they must notify the victim that they are being recorded. A private chat is no different, and I find it offensive to not be notified that my private chats are being saved to disk."

I give up. At this point, I'm just amazed that Orbit's managed to figure out how to post to this Internet thingie at all. Incidentally, just as a side note: Orbit's also wrong about the phone conversation issue. It varies from state to state, but in most states, it's perfectly legal (as well as quite possibly perfectly ethical, which would obviously depend on the specific situation) to tape a phone conversation without the second party being aware. What's always illegal is taping a conversation between two other people without either one being aware of it. Perhaps attacking Orbit, like attacking Momus or Michael Idov, would not be such a popular activity if she, like Momus or Michael Idov, wasn't spewing such disingenuous bullshit. Or, if we're being all enlightened now, cattleshit.

Jesse: If you knew me, and you clearly don't, you would know that I am deadly fucking serious, and do not HAVE a disingenuous mode. But you don't me.

Please take your hate to the hate thread, because that's all it is, and it doesn't deserve an answer. It is a personal attack pure and simple. If you look at my posts, I don't make personal attacks, I talk about issues. Why isn't anyone calling YOU out for being plain hateful?

How do you feel about making men uncomfortable in a public forum? You really think Chris wants any of this stuff brought up on the boards? How is what you're doing here any more noble than him saving a few IMs?

I've been trying my best to stay out of this, but I'm very upset.

right, the "blind item" clause. no slander here, move along.

a. don't bring up "facts" that only you are privvy to if you don't want to be called out on them.

b. stop being so damn creepy if.

i have a feeling i'm bordering on dnftt territory here, but what the hell.

Called out on facts? I spoke in general terms, then the person outed themselves. That was HIS choice, the conversation could have continued on the general level. What about Orbit? Huh? How would you like to be constantly attacked by people who don't know what the FUCK the are talking about? It gets old.

Thanks teeny I needed that :-)

Perhaps attacking Orbit, like attacking Momus or Michael Idov, would not be such a popular activity if she, like Momus or Michael Idov, wasn't spewing such disingenuous bullshit.

Then you should have noted your ignorance on the subject. Here's a free phrase for next time:

Note to Orbit: getting offended is not a viable hobby. I mean, in five years, when you realize that it was a crappy way to spend your time, never really all that much fun, and made people slink away from you when you entered the room, what then?

All from Jesse.
My posts do not have these kinds of insults in them so why am *I* the problem? I don't make personal attacks; I don't post anonymously.

My own experience: I've had issues with other posters about matters offline/historical and I've found that in the long run, ILX helped the parties to resolve the matter *because* it is a public forum where you have to consult the editor in your head very occasionally. If my friend Poster X needs a beatdown about something offline, I'll keep our dialogue here fresh because I've found the dialogue actually creates an opportunity for resolution of other things, but privately. I give ILXors a great deal of credit in handling sensitive offline matters in a discreet and proactive manner, and have seen heartening evidence of this on several occasions.

sadly, though, bullshit
is the best fertilizer;
damn that tree's UGLY

It is not a cop out for me to do something when a trusted friend tells me women are being made uncomfortable. I will not stand by like Kitty Genovese's neighbors.

Can we please back up to the original thread? The thread asked if ILX was becoming more hostile to women. I said it was hostile, that was my opinion, no I didn't think anything could be done about it.

Then I was challeneged to give examples, I did, no names.
Then Chris outed himself. his choice.

Then everyone hates me.

Yeah, but thread drift happens all the time, and the first dozen posts don't make as much sense with the new title. But this "(was...)" solution seems OK.

Being male?

...who is no doubt spinning in her grave at being used in such a fucking ridiculous self-serving analogy. Yes, being made to feel uncomfortable is exactly like being stabbed to death. Well done, great sense of proportion, very respectful of Ms. Genovese, you've certainly got the job.

But message boards do change! ILM changed for the better, so did ILE - so it's possible for them to change for the worse! (like Usenet did) And the people who've been here ages probably ARE better able to spot those kind of changes.

I recognise totally the need to stand up to bullies but please be aware that there is a fine line between acting as the self-appointed head of the Abuse Police and becoming the bully you profess to hate. You are walking this fine line with an almighty wibble-wobble, and you must accept there is an element of risk in fighting the good fight which people who don't quite see it that way are going to call you on.

So your name actually is Orbit?

Suzy is very OTM about off-board stuff getting dragged on board. Orbit, I don't think it was fair for you to point to an off-board incident as an example of the board becoming more hostile toward women.

As for the rather confused story about some women being disturbed by something someone said about breasts, I can't disentangle it enough to assess, but since all the participants and the details are unknown, I can hardly lavish praise on anyone for it.

Orbit, rather than just moaning about the aggression shown towards you, and setting aside for a moment what parts of it might or might not have any validity, and what parts are personal abuse and so on: have you stopped to wonder why you are getting so much of it? Most of us were newcomers here at some point, loads of us have spoken out on lots of issues, lots of us have argued with older posters: why are you getting all of this? It's not because you're a woman, or a feminist or hitting such issues strongly - there are many such posters here who everyone likes. There must be an explanation, you know...

As for the whole someone making ladies feel uncomfortable things. . .I apparently was one of the women involved as I had an apology come out of the blue. It was kind of uncomfortable b/c I had not spoken about the situation to anyone who has claimed involvement here and was left wondering why people were feeling the need to vanquish imaginary boogiemen on my behalf. I'm perfectly capabale of speaking up for myself and would've if needed in this case.

I think people were just being kind and helpful, which I appreciate. But to use that whole situation as an example of ILx hostility towards women is blowing it out of proportion.

Now to something not related to first paragraph: Orbit.

A) Tom Millar has never posted anonymous attacks on you. WHY SHOULD HE? He posted with his log in name that he hated at least three separate ILXors, wtf would be the point of going anonymous. Slander him for being a dickhead and calling you a bitch, sure--but don't make shit up. You aren't exactly proving him wrong.
B) Saving chats is not weird NOR IS IT ANY OF ILX'S BUSINESS IF CHRIS BARRUS DOES IT.
C) Your big fucking mouth caused me a lot of discomfort with a friend--the "Male ILXor" who is "creeping out" female ILXors--and quite frankly, I'm not impressed. It wasn't your business nor did you have a whole story to stand on.

None of this is ANYONE'S BUSINESS. You are not directly involved in ANY OF THESE three things with the lone exception that Tom told you to fuck off! So what I'm saying is, mind your own business and keep everyone else's business off public property if you are so concerned about chats being saved.

(xpost with Sam--wow, you were dragged into this too??? I already knew about (another female's name here) being dragged in as a direct object but I didn't know you too, wow)

I think the better question is why do people think they are entitled to personally attack someone they don't agree with? Ad hominem? Why don't people like you, Orbit? Gee i guess I'm just a worthless idiot hand me a goddamn rope and I'll hang myself. The rest of you are so much better than me that you can post TubGirl and other completely offensive crap without comment.

But of course what I said about hostility towards women wasn't good enough.
"Prove it, give examples."
I did, respecting everyone's anonymity, AND that was just ONE incident, of the many I mentioned. I did NOT make an innuendo. I stated a fact, without giving names, that's not an innuendo. People wanted an example of what IMHO is a general hostility towards women. If you don't want to hear people's opinions, don't ask for them!

Trust me, if I wanted to blast Chris Barrus I could do it; but I haven't. He chose to name himself, and this is not about him. It has a context of a larger problem of "casual sexism" I mean if it is so ingrained it is "casual" isn't that a problem? Yes, I said, please hear this, and I will leave it there because I know it can't be changed. The world is sexist, both men and women are and aren't sexist, and so is ILE. It won't change. But part of the dynamic of abuse is silence, and I when you ask me about the issue I won't be forced to be silent.

and i don't post anonymously, meaning i always post under Orbit, and don't make up aliases; my email address is real.

And for the record, I did not know the idenity of the other female ILXors and actually I did ask if Sam was one of them and was told no, so Sam not only am I not speaking for you, I had no idea you were involved and I have no idea who the other two are!

And regarding just go away of you don't like it--sorry, I'm a radical feminist I can't. My fibers must challenge you politically. Sorry.

But why is the focus Chris? Can I please re-iterate that he was NOT the person creeping people out, he was the person they went to for help. Can I further point out that the misunderstanding was cleared up offline! The recording of private chats did, however creep ME out, and is ONLY one of the things that makes ME IN MY HUMBLE OPINION THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH, along with Tubgirl, casual sexism, dismissing and silencing dissenting voices that make it hostile to women.

To Ed: A large problem on ILE is people assuming they know who person X is, when in fact they are dead wrong.

And regarding just go away of you don't like it--sorry, I'm a radical feminist I can't. My fibers must challenge you politically. Sorry.

Well then don't get pissed off when you feel like people don't like you.

Saving correspondence is academic, literary and historical. It is not creepy at all.

In the heat of the moment I forgot to mention I have probably never laughed at a pompous something so hard in my life, ever. The thought also occurred to me that I find polyester equally politically challenging.

I am never clever nor intelligent. I am obvious a giant idiot who should be quiet when asked to you think ILX is hostile to women.

Recording phone calls in California is a crime. Saving private chats without notifying people is creepy to me. It's not to you. We agree to disagree.

And the thing about my fibers challenging you was meant humorously.

Having religion is like having a big dick. It's a comfort to you but nobody wants you shoving it down their throats.

(oh, i guess i'm going to go back and tell people who's chats i've saved. no creep intended.)

i accept that you do believe saving PRIVATE chats without notifying the other person is creepy.

please accept that i DO think it is creepy, and a betrayal of trust.

Wow, this is fun. Did we establish who was pissing furthest yet? Did it yet occur to anyone that no one is going to agree with anyone else or is that fact still being processed?

The subject here was half-interesting at some stage. My answer: ILE's no more hostile to anyone in particular than anywhere else, i.e. it's a *bit* hostile to just about everyone.

I lost my posting steam at some point, but I still read ILE a bit occasionally. I didn't like how the board's tone sometimes had me adopting uncharacteristic mannerisms. OTOH, to most people I might be a rabid anarchist.

The juvenile shit gets on my tits. The profoundly unamusing one-liners, the threads about wanking and hot babes and having erections at work, and god knows what. I can sit in my local dive of a pub and earwig on stuff at least that fascinating any old day. I've heard a lot of talk about 'intelligence,' but the evidence of it seems a lot sparser than the talk of it, TBH. I think sometimes I feel even older than I am on here, because we have a lot of 20-and-30-somethings trying to be 14 years old, for reasons that elude me.

I guess I must find it interesting sometimes. Or I wouldn't read it at all. Or maybe it just means the rest of the Internet is even worse...

Well, anyway, since I gave up posting, I could give a shit about being lambasted. Argue away. Noise noise noise.

(relurk)

I also want to like you, too. I want to care a lot about you and cheer you through to happy times. But you are making this SO hard for me here. I don't know what kind of history you and Chris have/had, nor do I really care to delve into it, but whatever happened should just be between you and him. We here are not at all creeped out by his saving AIM conversations, probably because we do it as well or consider AIM convos along the same lines as e-mails.

Your whole Third Wave Feminist routine of apparently looking at the tiniest little things out there and considering them to be examples of blatant and unforgivable sexism is disappointing to say the least, as well. I know there are things to work on in the realm of the relationship between the sexes, but you know what? There are also things to work on in every other kind of human interaction out there. I refuse to become a victim just because I'm a female or because I'm a member of an ethnic minority (half Mexican, half Spanish here, fyi). I refuse to create battles and struggles because life already offers up enough battles and struggles and I don't want to add to that.

To insinuate that the males here on this forum are sexist or disrespectful to women is laughable to me. If you think this way, heaven forbid if you should ever find yourself on the Free Republic site, which I will be the first to admit is largely testosterone-driven. For example, one of the things that people like to say on that forum is that Janeane Garofalo shouldn't be listened to because she's "ugly" anyway, which I thought was laughable even when I was there because (a.) I used to love her stand-up routine, (b.) I disagree with her politics, but I'm certainly not going to say it has anything at all to do with what she looks like (btw, I respect her right to have opinions and I respect her in general, because she actually went on Bill O'Reilly's program to discuss her viewpoints), and (c.) I actually think she's a very gorgeous woman.

No, this forum here is filled with some of the most insanely self-aware, post-modern males I've ever had the opportunity to "meet". Sometimes I just want to shout at them to not worry so much about offending other people, because they could not possibly do that, but in the end I don't because the fact that they ARE so worried about offending other people means they're totally and completely different to the males I'm used to dealing with offline, and thus allows me to feel like this is some sort of Magic Happy Land I can retreat to whenever I need a break from said offline world.

Ack, this is a long post. Anyway, hope this makes sense. Please don't think this is a bad forum or that any of the males here are unthinking testosterone monsters. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just relax and actually let those of us who are still trying to get to know you better, get to know you better. Ok, dearie?

Regarding saving IM conversations: there's a setting in Messenger (Tools-->Options--->Messages) that makes it so ALL conversations are AUTOMATICALLY saved to your hard drive.

did george clinton bring his own?

Here's what Kenan said before you called him a moron:

That's a myth. Like many women, her weight fluctuated. She usually hovered around a size 7 or 8. On her worst day, she was a 14.
-- Kenan Hebert

Then he responed with:

I am not a moron, you daft fucking hippy.

-- Kenan Hebert (

Ally said this:

For someone so smug about how stupid and inconsequential every ILX discussion is, you need to learn reading comprehension a bit better. I'm sorry, I'm a little goddamned testy today.

Not really an insult, just a criticism. An apt one IMO on that particular thread.

AND WILL YOU PLEASE OPEN YOU EARS THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ME

IT IS ABOUT ME RESPONDING TO THE THREAD TITLE

BEING ASKED FOR EXAMPLES

GIVING SOME

AND AGREEING TO DISAGREE WITH ALL OF YOU

(xp)

Hey man, I just, like, you know, point out hypocrisy when I see it. Silence is part of the problem. You might even call me a Radical Bullshit Pointer-Outer.

So now I will repeat.
I answered thread.
People asked for examples
I gave them
I agreed to disagree

*pitches log on fire*

however, i have noticed on some thread that there is perhaps more bad temperedness in general, and maybe less give and take, there is perhaps a combatative tone that may or may not be offputting to people, female or otherwise.

if people are being intimidated off, then i think the only people really qualified to answer are those that have disappeared, but, of course they are gone, and we can only get the opinions of those that stay and necessarily have to speak for them

http://personalpages.tds.net/~interlocutor/hooray.jpg

http://www.princesf.com/photos/george-clinton.jpg

THE END

-- oops (don'temailmebitc...), August 31st, 2003.

Holy crap. That looks like a whacked out Chris Martin.