"any time i'm feeling good about myself or things, along comes a reminder of my physical presence."

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mitch said that to me earlier.

and then, in an unrelated conversation, i said this to maura:

Dubplatestyle: i think we define too much of our lives around whether or not we are, and who we are or could be or are not, fucking. which is what all this worrying-about-appearance stuff whittles down to in the end, after the age of 14 anyway.

is this true? is it necessarily a bad thing, even if it is? does divorcing yourself from worrying about sex and your physical attractiveness to other humans allow you into some higher insight, like a monk or ray milland in "the man with the x-ray eyes"?

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

We're designed to touch each other, hence all those nerve-endings in our skin and such. People who abstain and appear to be somehow 'enlightened' are just fucking high from not having enough tactile skin stimulation. Everyone deserves physical contact.

I am very much alone, lately, in that respect. So it's very high up in my thoughts.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

A Greek monk who abstained from sex until he had apparently drained himself of all carnal urges remarked that it was like being "unchained from a madman". Take from that what you will.

― adaml (adaml), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Being concerned with your physical form /= being concerned with sex or lack thereof necessarily.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I like mad people. tehy're interesting and fun at parties.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

i think this thread has already been divided by the types of responses it will get.

also, nerve endings serve other distinct purposes. like letting you know fire is bad for you.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

well I think there's certainly degrees in the amount of worrying. Some small amount is probably okay, but being obsessed with your appearances and your perceived "unattractiveness" is not a good thing. It doesn't take being a monk to realize that.

― hstencil, Monday, 27 October 2003 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

That's liek saying all water is for is putting out fires though.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:46 (twenty-two years ago)

"other purposes" do not equal "all purposes"

a cool breeze on your skin or the feeling of warm water is not a sexual pleasure, by and large

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

>Being concerned with your physical form /= being concerned with sex or lack thereof necessarily

Nickalicious otm. I am fairly confident of my own sex appeal, but it can be a bit of a downer to be walking along all happy on a sunny day and then have a huge gang of children fall down laughing at you. (I am very very tall and this happens. Fucking Baltimore. Nobody got no class.)

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think that I
will ever unchain myself
from that madman lust

I have tried and tried
and tried and tried and tried and
tried and tried. No dice.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

That said, I'm not really worried about making myself shorter (xpost with myself).

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

what Tom said.
Some people think I look like Buddy Holly, or Elvis Costello. But I actually don't. Other than the fact that I have glasses and and a face and short hair.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not suggesting that all physical pleasure is sexual, or all sexual pleasure physical, for that matter. Just that some sexual frustration is actually just physical frustration. Maybe.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

and sometimes, when I think I want to have sex, I really just want to be accepted.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

true, Horace.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

or hugged

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

or pancakes.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Aye. Or beer.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

does divorcing yourself from worrying about sex and your physical attractiveness to other humans allow you into some higher insight, like a monk or ray milland in "the man with the x-ray eyes"?

I don't know about "higher insight" exactly, but I can understand how not devoting so much mental time/energy to these ends could open your thought-processes & awareness in previously-ignored areas of life. It's the same with anything one would worry/obsess over in that regard, though.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, but we ALL worry/obsess over it. whereas we don't for stamp collecting or beet root candy.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

and sometimes, when I think I want to have sex, I really just want to be accepted.

At least you know the difference, Horace. Sometimes figuring that out can be hard.

I've never really worried about my physical presence/appearance, even when I found out it was pleasing to others. As long as I earned others' respect, THAT was important.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I want some beer.

― NA (Nick A.), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

People have less sex than we imagine/fear/resent.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I meant things more along the lines of "what am I doing with my life?" or "wow I'm gonna DIE one day ugh" or other things that all humans worry/obsess about, as opposed to 'stamp collecting or beet root candy'.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:01 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, but we ALL worry/obsess over it.

yeah but not all to the same degree.

― hstencil, Monday, 27 October 2003 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I worry that being single doesn't bother me enough.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

256. sometimes i remember that i have something i want to talk about and i post it to ilx anyway

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

now that we've established that not everyone thinks about sex equally and enjoying nerve ending sensations doesn't necessarily give you a boner, can we attack some of the other ramifications of the above?

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It depends if it drives from fantasy and absent-minded thought into unhealthy fixation and self-punishment, which is a difficult moment to define (especially for yourself).

How many people do you see every day who you'd like to sleep with?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh... I thought this was a weather thread. I just want to be a brain in a jar so I can comfortably live wherever's interesting. I guess I'd miss the old gonads though...

― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus one staple of like all societies ever that I don't like is this notion SHOVED into our minds that sexuality & attractiveness are entirely a physical thing, as though self-confidence & personal-comfortability-with-oneself-as-a-sexual being aren't - in the immortal words of the GI Joe PSAs - "half the battle".

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

How often when you've had sex have you consciously thought, during or after, "yeah, that justifies all the time I spend thinking about it"?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Honestly.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

oh i really hate sex, by and large. that was one of the key points that drove the first post.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

What do you hate about it?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:16 (twenty-two years ago)

And do you enjoy masturbating? (Serious question.)

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

attractiveness are entirely a physical thing, as though self-confidence & personal-comfortability-with-oneself-as-a-sexual being aren't - in the immortal words of the GI Joe PSAs - "half the battle".

Sure it is. You accept that now, but only because you are more mature to understand the value of self-worth. What young male thinks that far with his first brain, instead of his second?

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmmm, yeah I wish I was more bothered about being single. Personally, I'd say when I'm feeling positive and good about myself, it's not other people that bring me down, but the constant battle with myself and finding ways to avoid taking a step outside my comfort zone. That need to plan things to the Nth degree and be in total control of all situations. Oh dear.

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i will be much happier when i'm an old man and a darling nurse can lavish physical attention on me while i don't have to worry about the ramifications thereof.

x-post. i dislike the act. because i am a neurotic middle-class white male and it's been drummed into me that it's supposed to be something its not (whatever that something happens to be, for you.) which it never, ever is. the "good sex" i have is rare, mostly because i feel like it comes out of some realization of that something-it's-not. which is obviously fucked up, but is the conundrum i have learned to live with.

and yes, obviously, i do. but really that can come as no surprise.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: worrying about having/not having sex vs. worrying about the ramifications of sex (she/he's underage = go to jail, diseases, not knowing if it's your child or the [other] psycopath's, etc.)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

dude, ethan already did the monk thread. And as others have said, even if you were a eunuch you could still worry about your looks. Not being able to have sex is more a symptom as is being "ugly," the real problem is low self-esteem.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i want to esteem myself higher without the aid of books or effort

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i do love when people take the sentences with the little "?"s at the end as statements.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I want to not watch the video for Snoop and Pharrell doing "Beautiful" again.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

i notice how a. the ladies have not really touched this thread yet, and b. no one has yet to put forth a case for being as obsessed with sex/physical appearance as is normally thought to be "healthy" (or "unhealthy" but valorised by this here modern world and it's neurotic fuck-up artistes.)

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

(big xpost)

i think there are limits to how enlightened anyone can be on this, a la our greek monk unchained...i don't even think that's a good option, celibacy seems like a permanent stalemate instead of a solution.

the 'evidence' supporting the evolutionary blah blah of beauty is pretty compelling (basically that It Matters, Cruelly), but beyond that i don't think science or conscience supports our current Maxim-ized culture, where sex is ever more present and public but the idea of participating in it for living people is more and more remote.

as far as 'what could i be thinking about if i wasn't thinking about (my) sex(ual self)' i really have no idea; my brain is pretty well entrenched in this area... tho to pick on monks some more i don't think history or current events give much credit to their approach.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

(afraid of disrupting male-bonding/sympathizing/empathizing type stuff)

― teeny (teeny), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

'what could i be thinking about if i wasn't thinking about (my) sex(ual self)'

Killing people. Generally. Crashing cars, exploding bombs, that kind of shit. And music. And football. Scoring goals. New shoes. All of which come back to facilitating me having more sex.

Which reminds me. Betjeman, on a hillside, in his wheelchair, being interviewed just before he died;

Interviewer; Sir John, do you regret anything?

Betjeman; Yes. I wish I'd had more sex.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

b. no one has yet to put forth a case for being as obsessed with sex/physical appearance as is normally thought to be "healthy" (or "unhealthy" but valorised by this here modern world and it's neurotic fuck-up artistes.)

well okay, I'm not sure what's "healthy" per se but I know for sure that the amount that you (meaning you, jess, not a general you) obsess over your supposedly horrid looks is super-unhealthy. How do I know? Well I've been there too, I can empathize. But after meeting you, I mean, jeez, you're not a bad looking dude at all! The idea that you'll "never have sex again" (woe is you!) is laughable. You remind me a lot of my friend Drew that way, who was so obsessed with how ugly he thought he was that it took him a long time to realize that girls really really liked him.

― hstencil, Monday, 27 October 2003 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Fuck it, I know I'm good-looking and still no-one fancies me.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe cos I'm an asshole.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

...but non-institutional celibacy is pretty cool, come to think. a kind of final resistance, NO I WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN THIS. Morrissey, or everyone's favorite hey-now-let's-not-get-carried-away-with-this-feminism-thing whipping post Andrea Dworkin.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought my sex drive
was normal--and healthy too!
then I got married

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm having trouble answering this question in a way that you would find satisfactory probably because I don't find obsession-with-sex(-or-lack-thereof) to be entirely synonymous with obsession-with-physical-attractiveness.

As far as the question posed in the original post, I'll say this: obsessive or worrysome (sp?) thought-patterns can be very detrimental to the psych, regardless of the thing on which one is obsessing/worrying. Freeing oneself from such thought-processes is of course going to open one up to new reality-tunnels. This applies just as much to obsession-with-physical-attractiveness or obsession-with-sex(-or-lack-thereof-again) as it does obsession-with-death.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Always feeling that you either deserve much much better or much much worse, classic or dud?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 21:50 (twenty-two years ago)

i wanted to keep my personals out of this, but i fear my track record has tripped me up.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:01 (twenty-two years ago)

jess: someday you'll resign yourself to the fact that threads take on a life of their own, and people are going to talk about whatver hell aspect of the subject presented they choose. Also as hstencil touched on, your freakish descriptions of yourself made meeting you very disappointing. I was expecting the Elephant Man.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

how did i know this was a jess thread before i even clicked on it!!

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.reggaecd.com/photobio/elephantman.jpg

― jess *wink* (nickalicious), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I was expecting the Elephant Man.

d00d how cool would it be if the elephant man showed up to our faps!!

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

geeta totally, 100%, without a doubt OTM.

― Allyzay, Monday, 27 October 2003 22:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i will step on all you chi-chi men the next time i see you

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I would have been all over this thread 6 months ago and now I can't even remember what I would have said.

― TOMBOT, Monday, 27 October 2003 22:19 (twenty-two years ago)

If I didn't think about sex, I would think about music and food even more.

(this may or may not be true)

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think I understand the question. If there is a question.

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread is odd to me as though I do worry about being single and never having had a serious relationship, I don't tend to worry about my looks much. I suppose in some sense I worry, ie I spend alot of time and money on clothes and usually try to ensure I look well before leaving the house, but I do this because it seems the right thing to do anyway.

I firmly believe as soon as being single becomes a really big issue in my head it'll become more difficult to remedy it. At the moment I try to invest my energy and my faith in say music and writing and clubbing and my other hobbies. You find your happiness or transcendence elsewhere if you have to I guess.

At the same time I would only really worry if I stopped meeting girls I thought were cool for a very long time, like a few years. Even if those meetings haven't worked out perfectly, it's still comforting to know it happens often enough.

I kind of wonder am I bottling things sometimes, but I don't think so really, I just am a firm believer in forcing oneself to be confident about stuff.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

achieving enlightenment is what i aim for.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Enlightenment through sex.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:36 (twenty-two years ago)

no thanks!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread gives me a headache. I'm not sure who the "we" in jess's post refers to. It certainly doesn't speak to me.

― Mary (Mary), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

"we" = angst-ridden middle-class white men with big ego's and bigger neuroses.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Which is why I've replied so much.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

nick achieve enlightenment by yrself and get rid of those neuroses you angst-ridden middle-class white person.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)

james brown says:

get on the scene
like a sex machine

― gygax! (gygax!), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

julio, did you just tell me to have a wank?!

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Ronan voices familiar sounding sentiments. Superficial as it may sound, if you like the look of the shoes you're wearing you can have a great day.

I don't worry about not meeting people I find attractive very often and it's an absolute delight when on a rare occasion I do. Sex and dates are commodities to the single person, so it's something to whet my interest that's important. If that person doesn't come along then I can still go on dates, have casual flings and be fascinated by my friends.

― Lara (Lara), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I see about 40 people a day who I'd like to have sex with, and about one person a year I'd like to have a relationship with.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't tell if I'd like to have a relationship with someone by looking at them (unless they're wearing *fantastic* shoes).

― Lara (Lara), Monday, 27 October 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread post-Houellebecqian.

― Mary (Mary), Monday, 27 October 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I have on *fantastic* shoes.

But no, I can't tell by looking. I don't mean looking as such. Meeting, interacting with, whatever. But it's not often.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Your hands smell funny.

― Lara (Lara), Monday, 27 October 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Not fuckign lately they don't.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Monday, 27 October 2003 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Look in the mirror, turn the face up
Every try to live without the photographs and money
Don’t have to live behind the makeup
Cause all we want is what's itchin' inside of you

Cause we saw you sitting in the rain
With the tears running down, running down your face
It makes em shiver when they see you like this
But just open your eyes and watch it fade away

Cause we saw you sitting in the rain
With the tears running down, running down your face
Can,t you see it's a masquerade?
So get yourself together

Plug it in, plug it in baby
Where you been, where you been baby?
Plug it in, plug it in baby
Where you been, where you been baby?

We wouldn't say that its so serious
We know you think your in a tragic condition
You know we're a little bit more than curious
When all we want is whats kickin' inside of you

Cause we saw you sitting in the rain
With the tears running down, running down your face
It makes us shiver when we see you like this
But just open your eyes and watch it fade away

Cause we saw you sitting in the rain
With the tears running down, running down your face
Can,t you see it's a masquerade?
So get yourself together

Plug it in, plug it in baby
Where you been, where you been baby?
Plug it in, plug it in baby
Where you been, where you been baby?

― Your pals, Basement Jaxx! (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 27 October 2003 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Miccio madness! OTM, though....

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Monday, 27 October 2003 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I tend to worry more about how my looks affect potential friendships, or that they effect how people judge of me. But I think that's because I've already resigned myself to celibacy, really.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Monday, 27 October 2003 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

haha the plug it in lyrics are the only good thing about this thread!!

― geeta (geeta), Monday, 27 October 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Surely If I Ever Recover would have been more in tune.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 27 October 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

i never worried about the way i looked til i started to lose hair. now i am obsessed. what's worse is that it doesn't matter either way (balding guys still get laid, and i have no sex drive anyway)

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

whenever I think about getting down re: gradual baldness.

http://home.earthlink.net/~stayclean/quine4.jpg

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

i think of picard

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 00:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I learned the truth at seventeen
That love was meant for beauty queens
And high school girls with clear skinned smiles
Who married young and then retired.
The valentines I never knew
The Friday night charades of youth
Were spent on one more beautiful
At seventeen I learned the truth.
And those of us with ravaged faces
Lacking in the social graces
Desperately remained at home
Inventing lovers on the phone
Who called to say come dance with me
and murmured vague obscenities
It isn't all it seems
At seventeen.
A brown eyed girl in hand me downs
Whose name I never could pronounce
said, Pity please the ones who serve
They only get what they deserve.
The rich relationed hometown queen
Married into what she needs
A guarantee of company
And haven for the elderly.
Remember those who win the game
Lose the love they sought to gain
Indebentures of quality
And dubious integrity.
Their small town eyes will gape at you
in dull surprise when payment due
Exceeds accounts received
At seventeen.
To those of us who know the pain
Of valentines that never came,
And those whose names were never called
When choosing sides for basketball.
It was long ago and far away
The world was younger than today
And dreams were all they gave for free
To ugly duckling girls like me.
We all play the game and when we dare
To cheat ourselves at solitaire
Inventing lovers on the phone
Repenting other lives unknown
That call and say, come dance with me
and murmur vague obscenities
At ugly girls like me
At seventeen.

― janis ian (j.lu), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 00:38 (twenty-two years ago)

no i don't care, i mean hey, i got Penny
there comes a time in every girl's life when she's truely gotta ask
herself (you've gotta decide) is she ready, to be going steady? don't faint
dead away but i honestly believe that one month should be enough.
well, first of all, let's say you've dated johnny a few times
and one day johnny asked you to be his steady.
if you decide to...

left:

no i don't care, i mean hey, i got Penny
there comes a time in every girls life when she's gotta ask herself
sometimes sometimes you just ask yourself, steady or not
i mean, do you wanna be johnny's steady
don't faint dead away
but i honestly believe that one month should be just about enough
well, first of all, let's say you've
dated a boy named johnny a few times
and one day johnny asked you to be his steady...

three important rules for breaking up
don't put off breaking up when you know you want to
prolonging the situation only makes it worse
tell him honestly, simply, kindly but firmly
don't make a big production
don't make up an ellaborate story
this will help you avoid a tear jerking scene
if you want to date other people, say so
be prepared for the boy to feel hurt and rejected
even if you only gone together for a short time
and haven't been too serious
there's still a feeling of rejection when someone says she prefers
the company of others to your exclusive company
but if you're honest and direct and avoid making
a flaridy emotional speech
when you break the news
the boy will respect you for your frankness
and honestly, he'll appreciate the kind of straight-forward manner
in which you told him your decision
unless he's a real jerk or crybaby, you'll remain friends

i'm head of the class, i'm popular
i'm a quarterback, i'm popular
my mom says i'm a catch, i'm popular
i'm never last picked, i'm a cheerleading chick

being attractive is the most important thing there is
if you wanna catch the biggest fish in your pond,
you have to be as attractive as possible
make sure to keep your hair spotlessly clean
wash it atleast every two weeks,
once every two weeks
and if you see johnny football hero in the hall
tell him he played a great game
tell him you liked his article in the newspaper

i'm the party star, i'm popular
i got my own car, i'm popular
i'll never get caught, i'm popular
i'm the teacher's pet, i make football bets

i propose we support a one-month-limit on going steady
i think it will keep people more able to deal with weird situations
and get to know more people
i think if you're ready to go out with johnny
now's the time to tell him about your one-month limit
he won't mind, he'll appreciate your fresh look on dating
and once you dated someone else, you can date him again
i'm sure he'll like it, everyone will appreciate it
you're so novel, what a good idea
you can keep your time to yourself, you don't need a date insurance
you can go out with whoever you want to
every boy, every boy in the whole world could be yours
if you just listen to my plan, the teenage guide to popularity!

i'm head of the class, i'm popular
i'm a quarterback, i'm popular
my mom says i'm a catch, i'm popular
i'm never last picked
i'm a cheerleading chick
i'm the party star, i'm popular
i got my own car i'm popular
i'll never get caught, i'm popular
i'm the teacher's pet, i make football bets

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 00:53 (twenty-two years ago)

haha countdown until someone on this thread starts bringing out the smiths lyrics: 10..9..8..7...

dear god no

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 00:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm a bit muddle-headed right now so i'm not sure if i'm going to actually address the point at hand, but here goes. if i'm not worrying about my hair getting frizzy, my pants making me look fat, and my eyeliner running, then i'm going to be worrying about something equally petty. i'd probably be thinking about overdue library books or what movie to see or if i'm going to get fired. divorcing myself from the issue of whether or not i'm fuckable just allows me to indulge in other neuroses.
hmm. i have a feeling i have grossly missed the point, somehow.

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 00:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Why don't you stop
And look me over?
Am I the same girl
You used to know?
Why don't you stop
And think it over?
Am I the same girl
Whom you hurt so?

I'm the one you want
And I'm the one you need
I'm the one you love
The one you used to meet
Around the corner everyday
We would meet and slip away
But we were much too young
To love each other this way

Am I the same girl?
Yes I am, yes I am
Am I the same girl?
Yes I am, yes I am

Why don't you stop
And look me over?
Am I the same girl
You used to know?
Why don't you stop
And think it over?
Am I the same girl
Whom you hurt so?

I'm the one you hurt
And I'm the one you need
I'm the one who cried
The one you used to need
But you are pretending you don't care
But the fire, ahh, is still there
But we are no longer too young
To love each other this way

Am I the same girl?
Yes I am, yes I am
Am I the same girl?
Yes I am, yes I am
Oh, yes I am

Am I the same girl?
(Yes I am, yes I am)
Am I the same girl?, yeah
(Yes I am, yes I am)
Oh, yes I am
Am I the same girl?
(Yes I am, yes I am)
Oh, baby, yes I am

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 01:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Dis-moi que je suis belle
Et que je serai belle éternellement!
Que rien ne flétrira les roses de mes lèvres,
Que rien ne ternira l'or pur de mes cheveux!
Dis-le moi! Dis-le moi!
Ah! Tais-toi, voix impitoyable,
Voix que me dis: Thaïs, tu vieilliras!
Un jour, ainsi, Thaïs ne serait plus Thaïs!
Non! Non! je n'y puis croire,
Toi Vénus,
Réponds-moi de ma beauté!
Vénus réponds-moi de son éternité!
Vénus, invisible et présente!
Vénus, enchantement de l'ombre!
Vénus! Réponds-moi!

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 01:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Case in point that neuroses transcend language

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 01:15 (twenty-two years ago)

And I should certainly know about neuroses.
:^{

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 01:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Aw, J.Lu, We all do. Only depends on whether you talk about it....

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 01:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i find you all rather contemptable. not so oddly this has increased my desire to fuck some of you.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 02:49 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread is very confusing. It attempts to get our sympathy with the title "any time i'm feeling good about myself or things, along comes a reminder of my physical presence."

then implicates us in a skwered thinking rhetoric i think we define too much of our lives around whether or not we are, and who we are or could be or are not, fucking. which is what all this worrying-about-appearance stuff whittles down to in the end, after the age of 14 anyway.

If the "we" was changed to "I," I might feel more comfortable.

The use of "fucking" suggests that "we" judge our self-worth by whether or not we are engaging in a physical act, moreover in who we could or could not be engaging in a sexual act with. I could be generous and think that by fucking the writer meant something like being in a relationship, but his wording seems to preclude such generosity.

is this true?

Definitely not for me.

is it necessarily a bad thing, even if it is?

I think so. by valorizing sexual relationships you are overlooking the actual people who you might have a chance to have a sexual relationship with.

Just being an Adonis in a room full of woman is not going to get you laid, unless you are Joey Delesandro.

I don't understand how you could know who you could have sex with out of a certain group of people. These things are obviously subjective, and dependent on a lot of variables, othan than one person's look.

Even if you thought you could have sex with every woman you know, I don't see where the valor is in that, or how that is going to help you.

Many woman like to be involved with people they feel some kind of rapport with. You can develop such a rapport by being interested in someone, asking them questions about themselves, and seeing if you have any basis for getting closer to them.

You can't fake this though -- you have to be interested in something other than yourself (and possibly your record collection) to attract other people to you.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 02:54 (twenty-two years ago)

That last line is withering, sheeeeeeeiiiiiit.

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, if that's directed it at me, then seriously, fuck right off.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

it's probably directed at the entire of ILM

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i am biting my tongue right now is all i'm saying

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:26 (twenty-two years ago)

(this could be the first and only time this happnes on ilx)

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't mean my talk show "Woo woo woo!" post to start a fight! Look at thsi instead:

http://home.pacbell.net/bettychu/2003allbreedbisris/skylar_-_4_(2).jpg

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:27 (twenty-two years ago)

there's a rabbit stuck up that sheep's butt!!

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:29 (twenty-two years ago)

It's an X (?)

x-post: never mind, I'm glad I can't see it

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:30 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway, i dont care about sex anymore because my mom invited her new boyfriend over and i think i just heard them doing it urgh arrgh

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

It is a rabbit, Mary. No sheeps are involved, I promise.

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I once heard my dad
get it on with his wife. my
ears would NOT come OFF

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:44 (twenty-two years ago)

hey now "Plug It In" has TWO uses on this thread

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:48 (twenty-two years ago)

three if we count ear plugs

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 03:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Aww, I see it now; it looks just like my tippet, except white.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I would like to wear that rabbit on my head.

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Funnily enough, they have something like it at Flying A.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:30 (twenty-two years ago)

is this the kind of thing i should be "learning to talk and think about"?

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I recommend sleeping with anyone and everyone who will let you. Transcend whatever you find attractive or not. Explore humanity.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:35 (twenty-two years ago)

otm, possibly

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, Jess. You should put a rabbit on your head and discuss it with people. This will make you transcend humanity as a whole and become one with the Buddha. But only after you attach yourself to Aaron W's ass, ask Yancey.

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

is this is the accidental fisting i've been hearing so much about?

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Supposedly, I told bnw on Saturday that I wanted to smear peanut butter on those rabbits.

Oh, and Mary OTM.

― Carey (Carey), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Or, alternatively, I recommend reading Samuel Delany's nonfiction writings on sex. Times Square Red, Times Square Blue is probably the best place to start, but any of his autobiographical stuff will work as well.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

PEANUT BUTTER ON RABBITS ON MY HEAD WOW!!!!

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:42 (twenty-two years ago)

is this the kind of thing i should be "learning to talk and think about"?

if you mean tippets, yes. I would consider sleeping with any boy who could discuss, let alone buy me, tippets.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:52 (twenty-two years ago)

That last line is withering, sheeeeeeeiiiiiit.

for serious

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 04:57 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread post-Houellebecqian.

OTM Mary as Jess is now reading "The Elementary Particles" book because I told him it was good so blame me ;-)

I am still trying to figure out what I can add to this thread but it is difficult. I think part of the problem is that it is hard to figure out, in a larger sense, where to draw the line, in discussing actions, between different motivations. Jess seems to be saying that a lot of our actions, at least when they are related to the physical self, and perhaps, by extension, clothing, are ultimately sexual in nature. If we assume, even just for the purposes of this thread, that Jess is right in his assesment of motivations, then the question becomes, can this be escaped? Also, would there be any difference in the morality of learning about Tippets before and after reading Mary's last post (assuming of course that the learner is a hetero guy, a lesbian, or bisexual)? ;-)

I might be way off, but if I am then hopefully we can get closer to what is on. I think a lot of posts here might be missing the point which is more because of jess' diction and the anarchic nature of message boards, and not because of a lack of intellectual or cognitive abilities on the part of any poster.

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 06:15 (twenty-two years ago)

this is making my head HURT.
i was feeling sort of bad about myself, but then i remembered that i have spring rolls in the freezer. yessss!

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 06:27 (twenty-two years ago)

also, i was feeling sort of bad about myself but then i had like ten vodka cocktails. double yessss!

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 06:30 (twenty-two years ago)

the only thing i think i might disagree with to any extent is the level to which it is to do with 'who we are fucking', i think it is more 'who we could be fucking', ie, i think when it comes to self-esteem issues its not so much action but perception. or, even validation. if others feel you are hot, it is easier for you to think you are hot yourself, the actual following up of that isnt so important (the positives you may or may not get out of following it up are another thing entirely i think)

i think what im getting at is, the sex thing isnt a cause of good self-image but it can be a possible consequence. ive seen someone i know with low self-esteem suddenly flower and gets lots of sex, but it hasnt really done much for their self-image. so im not really sure i agree with the premise of the thread (although it is only nick southall who i totally disagree with here)

i think the thing with thinking "im with this hot chick/geezer therefore i am hot" is the wrong way around too, because you are putting yourself in the inferior/submissive category. you need to be the hot one (ok ok really it needs to be equal, but to begin with at least it can help to be kind of the hot one i think)

side question: does 'sensitivity' only 'work' if it is a pose?

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 07:11 (twenty-two years ago)

also, going back to the original title, i can totally agree with that, i just think its far more than in a sexual sense, you get a new haircut and you think its good and you are on your way somewhere and a load of kids on the bus start pointing and laughing, thats self-confidence totally shot:(

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 07:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Kids are kids though, they're just trying to grow up in a modern world!

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 08:40 (twenty-two years ago)

some posting-people always drip with pretension. oh and if i'm the origin of the "accidental fisting" contribution, my apologies

― Vic (Vic), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 08:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Honestly, kids. A year ago, it would have been me starting this post.

Sex is not everything. It is the ONLY THING. What are we? Our physical appearance, our clumbsy flesh balloon bodies are just robots to get our genetic material into the next generation. Even if your brain has shut off and said "Oh no, I never want to breed, children, yuck, oh no!" well, no one sent the message to your DNA, and they still want out!

So is it normal to think about sex all the time? Of course it is! It's the moment that you let your consciousness with all its pesky neurosis and complications and everything start driving your life, then you're in for trouble.

I mean, honestly. The need for attention? A diversion. Attention is only really a means of aquiring status - and what's status for? Access to DNA-swapping partners.

Do I feel better about myself because I have a partner? Maybe. In fact very probably. I've lost or abandonned many of the things I used to derive status from, and I feel fine. But I feel much better now I've read Dawkins and I feel justified in thinking about nothing except sex.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 08:55 (twenty-two years ago)

we're you thinking abt sex when you were reading that dawkins rubbish.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 09:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Erm, well, actually, no, I was thinking about avoiding sex, because HSA kept grabbing me by the foot and trying to drag me into the bedroom while I kept going "Hang on, sweetie, just let me get to the end of the chapter..."

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 09:22 (twenty-two years ago)

We're basically designed to rut, eat and sleep. Sad but true.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 09:51 (twenty-two years ago)

HSA's grandfather apparently came up with this philosophy whereby the secret to a happy life was lots of good sex, good cooking, and writing poetry. I disagree with the poetry bit, but the rest of it was OTM.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 09:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Julie Burchill must be very happy.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone in the world is exactly like kate, so she should know

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually they are.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I am very glad that the rest of the world is NOTHING like me. The fools!

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Aaron brings up a good point. Of course it wouldn't be moral for poster A to learn about tippets just so he could get poster B in the sack, but it might help A succeed in his goal.

What I was trying to get at through my long and pretentious post is that looks aren't so important (especially for woman) and that poster A should work on developing his social skills, which in my opinion are more important in helping him reach his goal, which I think is misguided anyway.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

where is the goal??

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i am beginning to think that ile is suddenly full of non-native anglophones

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(either that or they're so hellbent on proving their own "point" that they manage to completely misread the original post. [yeah, yeah i know...shocker.])

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

put the knives on.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

(also replacing "male" tediouness with "female" tediousness in conversation...well, the end result is still tediousness.)

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

My interpretation is that the goal is to [be attractive enough] to have the option of fucking every woman in a room.

I did try earlier to pierce out your incredibly confusing original post; if you would like to explain your ideas further, this might be a good time.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

...

what are tippets?

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

tippets = marmite spread with nutella and bovril on biscuits

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

i haven't read through this thread but the thread title resonates with me a great deal. although there are many times when i'll see my reflection and be rather pleased, there are other times when my mood will go sour almost immediately after catching a small glimpse of my mildly misshapen (at least, to my reckoning at the moment) self in a mirror on a subway station or whatever. my posture will start to fall and i'll even start sweating sometimes.

though i'm getting happier and happier about my appearance these days, these moments are becoming fewer and farther between.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

where is this room full of attractive people and why isn't it in my house?

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

room full of attractive people = a room with no mirrors

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i really couldn't give a flying fuck anymore, mary. whether your ignorance is willful or honest confusion, i find you annoying as hell. (how's that for social skills?) many people have answered the questions posed in the opening of the thread - confusingly phrased or not - wherein i posted a passing thought i had on a generalization i have noticed among my peer group and then posed three questions relating to it, attempting to gauge public opinion about whether or not that observation was correct or misguided. and, as is ilx's norm, some people have responded and taken note of my responses thus far and replied - again - accordingly, some people have cracked jokes, and some people have gone off on weird tangents. if you want to continue to misread and cast asperions, knock yourself out. but not on my dime.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)

what dime? am i going to get an invoice for ilx use?

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

In answer to the original question (he says, completely ignoring the imminent throwdown), I have never felt this way, so I don't know quite how to answer the questions posed. I've often complained about not being in shape, but I've never been deeply insecure about my looks; if anything, I'm much more sensitive to people thinking I'm stupid than thinking I'm ugly, because I've gotten enough feedback over the years to know that most people don't think I'm ugly but I have been brought up with the belief that people will take any excuse they can find to dismiss my intellect solely because of my skin color.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I suddenly have the sinking feeling that I have been turning my fearsome intellect almost exclusively towards potty humor over the past ten years in a subconscious attempt to fend off imagined hordes of ravening women.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

ts: thinking you're hizzot and stupid vs thinking you're brainy and ooglee

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

actually don't take sides on that, both suck

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

What if you have a crushing neurosis about people THINKING you are stupid even though you aren't, but you actively shun the tradtional signifiers of intelligence?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

jesus christ jess, don't lash out at mary like that

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

And how does that tie into your sex drive (because I agree that your sex drive IS a large determining factor in your behavior)?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I've gotten enough feedback over the years to know that most people don't think I'm ugly but I have been brought up with the belief that people will take any excuse they can find to dismiss my intellect solely because of my skin color.

But have you had actual experience of that happening, Dan? And sharp potty humor shows you aren't stupid, clearly.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:41 (twenty-two years ago)

i find this phenomenon to be rather divorced from sex, but then again in my life most everything is rather divorced from sex.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

What if you have a crushing neurosis about people THINKING you are stupid even though you aren't, but you actively shun the tradtional signifiers of intelligence?

It matters that YOU believe you aren't stupid, though. If that's so, what others think won't matter so much.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

That's not strictly true, though.

In general, I don't give a damn what people think of me as long as they leave me alone or, when dealing with me, treat me politely. HOWEVER, I have a not-so-secret need to be thought of as the smartest person in the room at any given time. There is no compromise on this. I recognize that I have a brain, etc, but not only is it very important to me that everyone I encounter for more than five minutes understands that I have a brain, it is very important that they are IMPRESSED with my brain.

I mean, I've got some lingering "I wish I had a six-pack" issues but more than anyone else I want people to scream "GENIUS!" when they look at me and fall down in a swoon.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

What does THAT say about my sex drive, heh?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

That you're really me.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:49 (twenty-two years ago)

i'd like enough just to impress people as not being hopelessly neurotic, let alone being beautiful or a genius.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(I mean, clearly I have achieved some comfort level with my physical presence; I am not the iron man I would love to be but no amount of working out would give me my eyes, which have garnered me more compliments than any other part of my body. So all of the issues Jess is portraying onto his peer group's physical appearance, I am putting onto my personality, which I then sabotage by refusing to interact with anything seriously and FURTHER sabotage by rejecting all of the traditional things that people view as intelligence, ie the day you catch me posting like Nitsuh or Marcello is the day my current personality has completely shut down and someone should be sending a shrink to my house to help me deal with the breakdown.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

(HAHAHAHA This is possibly the lamest "cry for help" ever! Sorry Jess.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i wish you would post "seriously" more dan, it's often really charming and impressive when you do.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

also it gives us an excuse to send prank-shrinks round

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, please save the prank shrinks from the dole.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

crunk prank shrinks

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

it's often really charming and impressive when you do

Quite right. :-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 28 October 2003 23:59 (twenty-two years ago)

bah xpost

...i'd plunk down for one

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

So all of the issues Jess is portraying onto his peer group's physical appearance, I am putting onto my personality, which I then sabotage by refusing to interact with anything seriously and FURTHER sabotage by rejecting all of the traditional things that people view as intelligence, ie the day you catch me posting like Nitsuh or Marcello is the day my current personality has completely shut down and someone should be sending a shrink to my house to help me deal with the breakdown

Open the door when she arrives, cause the shrink I've dispatched should be there, any second.

So, you wrap your neuroses up in a funny package? Who doesn't do that? Despite the occasional BS, your wisdom shows anyway, Dan. (But then, I've had enough practice to tell the difference.)

And yes, it's apparent you could be a studmuffin, despite your three pack and your 'tache.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

It's okay Geeta, I find Jess as annoying as hell as well. Maybe I'm just taking out my annoyance with him on this thread, which isn't fair, but I can't remember any posts or threads Jess makes that don't involve himself, or what we can do for him, or what advice we could give him. However, I also can't remember him ever offering to help anyone else on one of their threads. Plus, when he sees people enjoying themselves, and not paying attention to him, he lashes out them. Even so, I feel like I'm one of the few people who tried to respond to this thread in an honest manner, and I have just ended up offending. I honestly don't see how the responses he has gleaned here any different from the noise that he complains about on other threads.

― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

also Nitsuh and Marcello is a peculiar juxtaposition. is dan implying that he would appear bipolar?

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I am implying that Nitsuh and Marcello post in what I would say is an "intelligent" manner, although maybe "eridute" is a better word. It has nothing to do with personality and everything to do with presentaion/general style (ie, point + supporting evidence + references to wealth of knowledge gleaned from first-hand experience/book learnin'/listening/what have you).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:06 (twenty-two years ago)

You mean "erudite", don't you, Dan? Still, I get your point.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

to clarify what i posted upthread, divorcing myself from worries about whether or not i look good enough for people to want to fuck me/divorcing myself from the sexual realm in general doesn't lead me to any greater understanding. i just worry about other shit. but... to address the first part of the question, yes i've noticed that most of my peers spend an inordinate amount of time fretting over their appearances. and yes, this boils down to an intense need to either find someone to sleep with or hang onto the person they currently have. and yes, sometimes i catch a glimpse of myself in a window or something in an off moment and think, "oh, shit. i may as well give up."

― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

eridute is the best word

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i was thinking that n. is generally a bit detached and lightly ironic and patient and marcello, while intelligent, is also quite impassioned and bitterly ironic and a bit aggressive....

i also happen to think (hope i don't embarrass him) that so far as rhetoric goes n. is a bit of a genius.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)

n. meaning nabisco

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)

(But N, is a genius too.)

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:16 (twenty-two years ago)

"Just being an Adonis in a room full of woman is not going to get you laid" is the most on-point thing said on this thread, in a bunch of on-point things.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Speaking from experience, of course.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 01:38 (twenty-two years ago)

obviously untrue

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 01:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Tracer couldn't handle the demand for his rice pudding.

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 01:41 (twenty-two years ago)

(dear god, that was a terrible post. i need a serious nutz slap for that)

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 01:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I would oblige DB, but I'm too much of a lady.

Volunteer nutz-slappers, queue here.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 01:47 (twenty-two years ago)

ew. there were two stages in my life. before reading the phrase nutz slap and after.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 01:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess, I'm sorry I'm one of the people who did not take your thread seriously, but it was not meant as an insult to you. I decided long, long ago that posting truly personal things on ILX was asking for a helluva lot of trouble. This is a question I cannot answer here because the last time I posted something truly bone deep on here, a fucking regular threw it in my face in a goddamned AIM chatroom like I was some kind of animal in a zoo, like I have no feelings cos I am now a "persona" on a goddamned internet chat board. I will not answer questions like this and yeah I will sometimes go in and be an ass on the thread because they always end like this, if not in just wallowing self-pity bullshit. You want a persona, ILX? Here's a fucking party girl good time slut persona, bastards.

I suggest, jess, that you do the same thing. This isn't going to get you anywhere. Like it or not you have developed a "persona" on ILX and people are going to respond accordingly. So why get offended by this? It's your persona.

I'm a hypocrite because I get offended by it too but OTOH I do not come on and look for serious advice about my deep personal issues with my self-worth.

― Allyzay, Wednesday, 29 October 2003 01:52 (twenty-two years ago)

And yes, reading the original thread question, you are not asking advice questions but you've specifically related it to yourself/your personal conversations=that is how it is going to be taken. You've been here as long as I have! WTF dude.

― allyzay, Wednesday, 29 October 2003 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

http://side7.gundam.com/the_gundam_box/reviews/zeta03.jpg
Here's a fucking reactionary metal robot killer persona for you, too

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 29 October 2003 01:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha this is what I say to that:

http://www.rockafucker.com/images/NYC2/DSCN1606.JPG

― Allyzay, Wednesday, 29 October 2003 02:05 (twenty-two years ago)

to return to the original question, and treat it as a cartoon for purposes of explication (though apologies for any redirection), is it any sillier for men (or women) to seek trophy-ness in their partners because of certain particular neuroses than it is for women (or men) to seek partners who are larger, say, or more confident, than them, because of other particular neuroses? and are these neuroses societal?

i think jess is frustrated with Mary because to some extent they're trying to address the same point - that (or whether) these neuroses get in the way of forming real relationships.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 02:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm reading back over what I wrote earlier and trying to see if there is any relevance at all to Jess's original question. There doesn't seem to be. This embarrasses me mightily.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

dude. if everybody apologized for responding to tangents here...

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 03:44 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah my entire collected posts of the past 24 hours embarrasses me royally but so it goes.... at least i didn't post my address or anything like that.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 08:01 (twenty-two years ago)

When you're lonely and miserable and feeling alienated, it's easy to become bitter and lash out at those who are not feeling the way you are, or offering advice you feel is unhelpful.

What I was trying to say yesterday with my perhaps off-topic diversion is that human beings are social animals. It is the most natural thing in the world to crave sex, companionship, etc. The only thing *worse* than feeling lonely and alienated is feeling *guilty* for wanting or craving sex or companionship or physical contact. That way lies neurosis and a downward spiral of self hatred. Because it's impossible to not think about sex, or at least aquiring the companionship of other humans, and those who try - monks with X-ray vision or whatever - become even more fucked up and repressed.

Stop feeling guilty about being lonely; start doing things that connect you to other people.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 09:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Kate once again OTM. As was Dan Perry earlier (and Dan, you were on-topic, insofar as the 'topic' is how we see ourselves and how that affects our relationships with others).

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)

And Dan yr posts were great, but I often don't care too much about ontopicness

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

side question: does 'sensitivity' only 'work' if it is a pose?

absolutely. fake sensitivity should only adorn a true inner masculine ethic. it is so depressing to realize that what you thought was the pose of sensitivity is actual sensitivity.

― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread hurts my boner.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

chris v OTM

― Priscilla Beaulieu Magnatech (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

my real answer is quite simple...you don't need to be buff to be attractive. Mostly its the personality.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

if i wasn't sick already, i'm sure i'd be vomiting right now

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, the implications are too horrible!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

like andrew, i don't much care about on topicness either (as long as a good discussion results), but this thread is some sort of micro-epic of misreading. or maybe projection on the part of some of the paritcipants.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:25 (twenty-two years ago)

(note to self: "vile ~~people~~evils are vile evils.")

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know if "Dan has a pity party and you're all invited!" necessarily makes for a good discussion.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

it makes for a better discussion than miss mary's dating tips for young girls and boys!!

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I still don't understand how we've not been answering these questions...maybe a breakitbreakitbreakitdown is in order:

"i think we define too much of our lives around whether or not we are, and who we are or could be or are not, fucking. which is what all this worrying-about-appearance stuff whittles down to in the end, after the age of 14 anyway."

is this true?

This presupposes a collective "we", and thus I have to say "no". For you/someone else personally, the answer might be "yes".

is it necessarily a bad thing, even if it is?

Inasmuch as defining the quality of one's life by only one criteria, yes this is definitely a bad thing.

does divorcing yourself from worrying about sex and your physical attractiveness to other humans allow you into some higher insight, like a monk or ray milland in "the man with the x-ray eyes"?

Inasmuch as divorcing oneself from any unhealthy obsession can help shed insight on one's own life, yes.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

but since i ain't never had no occasion to be speakin to the ones with the bits that go up inside'a them rather'n hang down low, i could surely use summathat to strike me up some conversation next time i'm down by the pig shack. i reckon i can pretend to be a sweet boy long enough to surpress the stranglin urge. that's why paw has me workin int he fields rather than the slaughterhouse witha the rest of the menfolk. i'm just too' 'gressive he says.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I did want to start a thread on smart people who don't like the traditional earmarks of intelligence and all of the attendant hypocrisies/contradictions therein but I couldn't figure out how to effectively phrase the kick-off question.

(Also, I think the link of personality to sex drive/sexual attraction isn't something that should be ignored in this discussion as the way someone behaves does affect how attractive they are to others.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

nick, you were one of the people who actually managed to respond to the questions-as-asked in the first place, rather than go off on some tangent or attempt to play armchair psychoanalyst with me!! you're alright, man.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Right on!

(Sometimes I can't tell if I'm going off on some tangent or not - I blame all the psychedelics.)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

so i'll punch you in the arm playfully, ala fred durst or some fraternity gentlemen. i only hug when young ladies are present. and then, only on occasion.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think that disassociating yourself from sex allows you any insight whatsoever. All of the energy that was going into your sex drive and coloring your perspective from that angle is now going into some other aspect of your personality/physiology/neuroses and coloring your perspective from that angle. There's no such thing as a clear, unfettered perspective.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

(Witness, for example, my mini-meltdown above about how people view my intelligence.)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

no, i agree. i just don't much see the value in trading one set of games for another, which seems to be what many people on this thread are suggesting. the end result is still a falsehood.

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

From what I understand of Buddhism/Taoism/etc., "enlightenment" is really not far from "being a slacker" anyway.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's still a falsehood. The conclusions you draw are probably extremely valid for the space your are currently inhabiting. I think the big problem most (if not all) people have is the whole consistency vs hypocrisy question; everyone's looking for a universal answer that makes their entire lives make sense without fully appreciating that the nature of external influences upon you matched with your innate interal chemical processes mean that you aren't the same person you were five minutes ago, let alone five years ago, and therefore looking for an overarching answer/solution to these types of questions is doomed to failure.

You can dispassionately look at relationships and dismiss them all as unfair power struggles right up until the day you meet someone who slots into your life, filling in all of the blanks you didn't know you had, at which point who cares about unfair power struggles?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

x-post earlier:

Dan if it helps you
I'll step up and underrate
your intelligence!

"Perry can't be smart,
nature handicapped his ass:
Cure fan? MUST be dumb"

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Normally I would say "There's no such thing as a dumb Cure fan!" but I've been to too many concerts.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

btw: since i never bothered to explain this earlier, the opening quote struck me as applicable because blah blah if someone was truly happy inside without drawing their self-worth from the appreciation of others they would be comfortable with themselves and how they looked blah blah aint no love round here, it's just one big cycle here blah blah

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

if you convince yourself that you are intrinsically unlovable and that anyone who says otherwise is either lying to be kind or to be cruel or because they are conventional simpletons are trapped inside some kind of pitiful clichescape, then naturally you are going start behaving in hostile ways towards people who i. probably would like you if you weren't acting the way you were towards them, or ii. actually do like you

then people react against you, and you can cite the iron rules of physical-sexual attraction as having been against you from the start - "why should i bother being interested in people, i'm ugly what's the point etc etc"

obsessing that it's yr physical presence which is playing the main role in everything = deciding not to bother doing anything about the stuff which is ACTUALLY playing the main role viz yr behaviour towards people

the thing that gives you "higher" insight into other people and what they want and who they are is being interested in them and asking and finding out, or at least observing: if you let your worries abt yr fuckability stop you bothering being interested in other people then yes, i think this greatly hampers yr insight

everyone behaves like a dick sometimes: this is not their "true essence", it's behaving like a dick sometimes

i think thinking abt yr worth to others is no bad thing, but a. don't assume it just boils down to fuckability cz it totally doesn't, b. you're probably overlooking all kinds of stuff abt yourself that comes easy to you and you therefore take for granted, the stuff THEY value which you DON'T (and they're probably RIGHT and you're probably WRONG)

it's silly to pretend that ppl aren't sexual, but it's just as silly to convince yrself that the sexual lens is the only undeluded lens - don't trust undeludedness!!

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

best advice ever!

― jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

As usual, Sinker is dead on.

think thinking abt yr worth to others is no bad thing, but a. don't assume it just boils down to fuckability cz it totally doesn't, b. you're probably overlooking all kinds of stuff abt yourself that comes easy to you and you therefore take for granted, the stuff THEY value which you DON'T (and they're probably RIGHT and you're probably WRONG)

Right vs. wrong is such a subjective term, you could spend centuries in arguments discussing it. Thankfully, fuckability doesn't truly matter in the larger scheme of things. It should matter more about what you can contribute to the world, in the relatively short amount of time you've got.

Jess, I too have become guilty of disappearing on tangents. Sorry, sir.

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, as if jess has never disappeared on a tangent himself

― geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Tangents rule. Much better than coworkers.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

ts: sines vs cosines

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

ts: zen Vs. cozen.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 29 October 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

i think we define too much of our lives around whether or not we are, and who we are or could be or are not, fucking.

"Are" does not equal "could be." The POTENTIAL fucking thing is way more central to the your-life-revolves-around-it ego thing than whatever KINETIC fucking is actually going on. Way more. Way way way way more. And ta-da, potential fucking is all in your mind! Have a fucking ball! I know I do.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 30 October 2003 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, this thread has just shown me how we're all walking brains with major neuroses and personal issues we should all be working on. OMG.

Jess, I don't give one crap if you hate me or not, because I'm going to be doing some spilling on a thread of yours and I won't be held back, plus it's something that is partially in response to another thread so yay for irritations galore.

I spent the first eighteen years of my life not letting people get to know the inner me. I was all about surface and pretty pictures and small talk. All this left me was a nervous breakdown and friendships built on shaky ground. Now I realize that people are going to pick on me no matter what I do. I'd rather have a few deep friendships and a sense that those few people know who I am inside.

As for the original topic -- yes, I can and do relate completely to looking in the mirror and hating what one sees. I've never been happy with my phsyical appearance. In fact, whenever I experience those moments in which I feel good about myself, it's because I'm secure about my inner self. I still will look at my reflection in the mirror and think how horrendous I look. And no, it doesn't have anything to do with wanting "more sex" in my life -- though "any sex" would automatically = "more sex" in my case -- because I have pretty much given up on experiencing that part of life. No, I think it's rather a case of someone of the opposite gender taking a look at me and *gasp* actually being interested. And all the advice and "wise words to ponder" aren't going to do jack unless I seek professional advice in re: this issue, because this is all part of something that is so much bigger than you or me.

And maybe that's what you need.

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Thursday, 30 October 2003 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

dunno how true it is but i usually feel pretty good about how i look, bodywise, or at least comfortable. my hair can get messy which i fret about and generally about looking like total hell after a bad night's sleep, which i really do.

but what i always worry about is that i'm too intellectualetc. to just cut loose and have a good time. or rather, that i do have a good time in intense discussions about x,y,z but that it makes it hard for others who i would like to relate to to relate back to me. like the idea of small-talk is completely alien to me, tho i do a great job at it when i feel i'm doing it for a purpose. but to just... do it... as a nice thing to do... i always feel horrible and tawdry and manipulative. okay. not really. but sometimes. its like if i don't get a certain engagement out of a conversation i drift off.

sometimes i feel jerky because of that too, the drifting off thing.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 30 October 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

The POTENTIAL fucking thing is way more central to the your-life-revolves-around-it ego thing than whatever KINETIC fucking is actually going on. Way more. Way way way way more. And ta-da, potential fucking is all in your mind! Have a fucking ball! I know I do.

For the purpose of the argument I am going to take Tracer's post here at face value -- apologies if it is more tongue in cheek. Maybe there is fundamental male-female divide here -- forgive the generalization. I think many woman have the feeling that they could "fuck" just about anyone -- so it's not something that they would necessarily fantasize over. Gareth (I mean Charlton) alludes that having someone finding you attractive makes you feel better about yourself. While this is true, it can also get in the way. There could be someone who you just want to be friends with, but they are ruining things by doing silly things to show you that they find you -- I don't known -- "fuckable"?

― Mary (Mary), Thursday, 30 October 2003 04:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I no wot you meen Sterling. Sumtimes I wurry that I are too interlekctual too.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Thursday, 30 October 2003 04:47 (twenty-two years ago)

i want love not sex

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 30 October 2003 04:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean i want sex too but it is a subset of something larger in my mind.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 30 October 2003 04:57 (twenty-two years ago)

although it depends who with, but i'm not looking who i want to fuck in a room full of people, i'm looking for something more than that. ideally, ya know?

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 30 October 2003 04:58 (twenty-two years ago)

gareth puts things wonderfully way upthread (i.e. throw me in the gareth-tracer "it's all in the potential" camp), so yeah, mary, xx and xy def. come at this from different angles (i.e. "complications" in many cases = the interesting bits for men).

lauren is way too fucking hard on herself. stop that.

and lemme say that the worst situation to generate the types of thoughts jess mentions to start is within an actual relationship. a relationship that turns essentially platonic and it certainly makes you question yr own self-worth as a sexual object, an attractive person (and not just in the physical sense) and really yr whole sense of self overall. i've had this happen before (as i'm sure most everyone has), and really the only way to get yr head around it is to convince yrself that you don't care at all about sex or human contact or any of that shit, which takes some practice but is absolutely possible!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 30 October 2003 05:12 (twenty-two years ago)

possible but still not great for your head (welcome to where i am now)

― the surface noise (electricsound), Thursday, 30 October 2003 05:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Y3 OTM. (I love the way this thread is turning into a love fest.)

― Mary (Mary), Thursday, 30 October 2003 05:36 (twenty-two years ago)

the only polite thing to do when you break up with somebody is to tell them you still find them indescribeably hottt but are breaking up for other reasons.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 30 October 2003 05:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Also: I'm really surprised at how many men here are admitting to deriving a large part of their self-worth from whether some random people think they are attractive or not. I thought this was more a female province -- leading them to competition for attention. I have always considered myself lucky that I haven't been heavily socialized in this manner -- though when I was younger I found it common to some of my girl friends.

― Mary (Mary), Thursday, 30 October 2003 05:50 (twenty-two years ago)

i am emo

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 30 October 2003 06:14 (twenty-two years ago)

a relationship that turns essentially platonic and it certainly makes you question yr own self-worth

Speaking from 10 intensive years on the subject, I think you have this backwards. Or at the least, it's a self-fullfilling prophecy.

― bnw (bnw), Thursday, 30 October 2003 07:13 (twenty-two years ago)

the reverse may be possible, but i do think Yanc3y is right.

― the surface noise (electricsound), Thursday, 30 October 2003 08:59 (twenty-two years ago)

similarly i feel ok abt how i look. But problems do come along bczI'm not a great conversationalist and talking about records is the only thing I might be good at.

Its the whole thing of trying to build rapport with someone that is a problem and the more I want it to happen then the more difficult it would prob be.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:25 (twenty-two years ago)

always good to see you at the FAPS Julio

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, I know how you feel about the conversation thing Julio. I'd say I'm sorta the same.

― jel -- (jel), Thursday, 30 October 2003 09:58 (twenty-two years ago)

There could be someone who you just want to be friends with, but they are ruining things by doing silly things to show you that they find you -- I don't known -- "fuckable"?

i sometimes worry that i am the sort of person of whom mary complains, albeit in a slightly less shrill register.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 30 October 2003 11:40 (twenty-two years ago)

yknow, actually, i am feeling fine abt my looks lately. this probably means that i'm teetering on the brink of an abyss of self-loathing but that'll do for now.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Thursday, 30 October 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish my face didn't dislike shaving so much. I'm either stubbly or spotty.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 30 October 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

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