What's the deal with Americans and nudity? [WORK-SAFE AGANE HURRAH]

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This is something I've always wondered about... While I was at the Internet Movie Database, I stumbled upon a conversation where people were shocked because in some film a daughter and her mom see each other naked! Is it really true that many Americans have never seen their parents/siblings/firends naked? Also, regarding visual arts, nudity seems to be much more "normal" back here in Old Continent, i.e. it doesn't automatically refer to sexuality. I'm not trying to diss American culture, I'm just wondering if I'm correct on this subject, and if so, why?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:51 (twenty-one years ago)

In America, you have the right to bear arms to shoot any family member who dares appear before you naked. You are not allowed to fuck the corpse, though.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Seeing your mom naked if your a guy----eeeewwwwwww.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)

it's ok to show that as long as they're dead mutiliated bodies. Violence makes nudity ok in america.

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)

your=you're see, the thought makes you spell funny

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Seeing your mom naked if you are a guy and your mom is Halle Berry----OOOOOH ME LIKEY LIKEY LIKEY wait you're my mom eeewwwwwww.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I like to think of Europe as filled with a bunch of drama majors who really don't mind being casually naked.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

dis away, we're beyond fucked on this issue.

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Teeny otm.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Seeing your mom naked if your a guy----eeeewwwwwww.

That's exactly my point: why is it eeewww? I know I'm talking at a very stereotypical level, but that doesn't change the fact there seems to be a general difference, and I was wondering why is it so?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Because we're Americans, for crying out loud!

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

In a perfect world, all nudity would lead to sex.

Also, said sex would create ice cream sundaes for post-coital noshing. There would also be cheerleaders during the act.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)

I mean, what are the roots of such an attitude? Does it have to do with Christianity? Puritanism? Does anyone know?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

(The serious answer is "What do you expect from a nation founded by Puritans?")

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

(haha xpost)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

There would also be cheerleaders during the act.

Who are you, Charlie Sheen?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I note you don't have a problem with the ice cream sundaes...

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 15:59 (twenty-one years ago)

sex would create ice cream sundaes for post-coital noshing. There would also be cheerleaders during the act.

You wanna come up for some coffee, Dan?

― Miggie (Miggie), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll have to check with the wife.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:00 (twenty-one years ago)

can't explain it. Too primal. I know it's different in Europe, I see entire families naked together in the Tiergarten in Berlin or at the beach. Of course, in Germany, beach=dirt next to a puddle where a fat naked man is trying to windsurf on 3 inches of water.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

In a perfect world, all nudity would lead to sex.

Dude! sons & mums? eurgh!

― Pinkpanther (Pinkpanther), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Can you actually trace it back to Puritanism? Is it because Christianity has a stronger influence in the US than in Europe today? Are there any pro-nudity Christians?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:01 (twenty-one years ago)

dude, i have a problem with the "post-" part. Cannot ice cream sundaes be enjoyed in the midst of the act? what about becoming part of it?

in fact, what act WOULDN'T be improved with the addition of chocolate sauce, cherries, and sprinkled nutz?

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll have to check with the wife.

You tease.

― Miggie (Miggie), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Those damn Christians, they stole English mythology, and made Americans funny about nudity!

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

also, we originally had a superreligous culture, based in a religion known for its ascetic tenets.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I want someone to give me a good reason why sex wouldn't be instantly better if the end result was dessert rather than a baby (beyond obv the eventual extinction of the human race).

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

no, the puritans were actually pretty randy and open within religious rules (like no adultery, etc); it was the Victorians who fucked this all up.

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

In the programme about history of Men's magazines a couple of weeks ago Felix Dennis said that one of the reasons Maxim is so successful in the USA is that it won't offend advertisers. So despite it being chockful of eye candy, you'll never see an uncovered nipple, nevermind a pubic hair.

The middle ground i.e Penthouse/Playboy has withered as tastes have become polarised. Quite what that says about America I'm not too sure, though donut bitch (and Momus) will have something to add.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Also that's your private zone, and you shouldn't let anyone else see it.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Call me a modest American, but I don't ever want to see my dad's cock. It has nothing to do with religion or morality or whatever. It has everything to do with the fact that it's my DAD for chrissakes.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

cf new film "Calendar Girls." Apparently English boys don't want to see their mums naked either. It forces them to smoke dope in places where the police will catch them.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

beyond obv the eventual extinction of the human race

How is this not a good reason?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title_pages/2335.html

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

teeny and Nicolars and donut bitch otm. You can't show boobies on network TV, no matter what time of day or night. But you can have bodies getting ripped apart by machine-gun fire and twitching and burbling on the ground until they're dead, whenever you want!! And it's not some government thing or the FCC or whatever, like a lot people think. It's all down to the advertisers. I thought sex sells?? I guess that's a side issue though - Tuomas's real question is more "why does nudity automatically = sex" in America. I don't fucking know. In France there were lots of adolescent girls and boys naked on the beach. You would never see that in America. Somebody would call the police, people would be uncomfortable. Thinking about this stuff makes me hate everything. :( And I don't buy the Puritan argument, this country's always been more diverse than that. :(

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

and you shouldn't let anyone else see it.

unless they pay you, of course, or you're really, really drunk.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Sex and nudity sell better when they're contraband.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

But the idea that nudity is no big deal in Europe is a bit disingenuous. There's a lot of nudity in advertising. If people weren't titilated by it, advertisers wouldn't use it.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

TITilated!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

But why do you feel this way? Such an attitude doesn't come from nowhere. I've seen my mom and dad naked several times, and I've never thought "it's my DAD" or "it's my MUM for chrissakes". So it has probably everything to do with religion and morality. It's a very Christian thought that nudity equals with sexuality. Even you calling your dad's penis a cock reveals something.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

A rooster fetish?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but you're only adding fuel to Tuomas's query there. you don't have to LIKE it! just that it is true... Americans (and probably people of many other countries) are very squeamish about the idea of seeing other family members naked.

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm just saying that sublimated sexual desire is the grease that lubricates the throbbing engine of our nation's large and tumescent economy.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

(barring any personal reasons and not just religious reasons one may not be enthralled with his or her parents, of course)

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think it's particularly uncommon in America for children to see the parent of the same sex naked and vice versa.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

In America, everyone hopes that nudity will lead to sex.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

But the idea that nudity is no big deal in Europe is a bit disingenuous. There's a lot of nudity in advertising. If people weren't titilated by it, advertisers wouldn't use it.

As I said, the division is not that simple, I'm making generalisations here, but some sort of difference clearly exists. I'd say that in Europe nudity isn't necessarily titillating or dirty, but it can be that too.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:12 (twenty-one years ago)

read my link people! also in modern america we have no interest in representations of the human body that don't make you want to buy something.

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:12 (twenty-one years ago)

It was a good link, Teeny.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Besides, by definition, a parent is old and fat and who wants to see that?

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think it's particularly uncommon in America for children to see the parent of the same sex naked and vice versa.

What about the other parent? Or friends?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

The US gives Israel five billion dollars a year in aid.

Hollywood box office takings totalled 8 billion dollars in 2002.

Adult videos took 20 billion dollars in 2003.

Americans like Israel and Hollywood, but they like nudity more.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

in the upheaval of the civil war there were certainly "pro-nudity" xtians, just as there were "free-love" xtians etc etc (brethren of the free spirit etc, ranters, early quakers maybe, antinomians generally)

the english puritans who seized power (ie not the above, who carried on being persecuted) were certainly anti PUBLIC nudity - and theatre and license and carnival generally, partly i suspect bcz (in the uk) - these were catholic-sanctioned social mechanisms for letting off steam, seemingly anti-authority but actually ultimately buttressing rather than challenging it (you approve of the boss who allows you holidays etc)

anti-private nudity though? this seems impractical and unlikely except for the fairly well-off (being clothed in bed; having separate beds etc etc)

the puritans who founded america were pretty much social radicals (in both directions) (ie radically anti-worldly/church authority and pro God'sd authority) even by the standards of commonwealth puritans: and MUCH less pragmatic about carnality than the catholic church had become

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:14 (twenty-one years ago)

America needs more saunas!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:14 (twenty-one years ago)

not "saunas"!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I think possibly that in America, there is a really wide range of people, and you want to respect their sensibilities. Nudity was/is no big deal in my house, but if I was having a friend sleep over, I would neither make her feel bad for undressing in front of me or undressing in the bathroom. Everybody defaults to the least risky behaviour, which equals not stripping down.

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

thus also few nude beaches in USA.

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

but here's what i don't get, teeny --> representations of the (fictional) maimed and killed = "the buying mood"??

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd say it's a fairly rare American family where adolescent and older children see both parents naked on other than an accidental basis. Friends? Do you mean friends of the opposite sex? If guys go work out at the gym together, they will probably see each other naked in the locker room. No idea about women's lockerroom, but I think in general, women are more private, according to my ex. You totally don't see your friends of the opposite sex naked, because then you'd immediately be forced to have sex with them. regardless of sexual orientation. It's in the Constitution.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

GOD BLESS THE CONSTITUTION

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

concubinage general

i THINK i know what this means, but i like this phrase anyway, and strive to use it as often as i can today.

i'll use it to order lunch, too.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

i wonder if it isn't more a "civilised versus barbarian" thing in the US, where the frontier between native american clothing custom and invader custom meant a very sharp and sudden cultural divide? (of course all kinds of sex-pol and religion wd be present in that also)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

You don't get my point Momus, I know nudity sells in America as well, but why is it dirty?

Adam is right, the Finnish sauna culture is probably one reason I have no problems whatsoever with nudity, and I don't think seeing friends of opposite sex naked has anything to do with sex.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:19 (twenty-one years ago)

That is, Finns may be even more liberal with issues of nudity, because we've all seen each other naked at least in the sauna ("sauna" is a Finnish word, actually).

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

More liberal than other Europeans, I meant.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I think we understand your question, Tuomas, and it's a good one. What you're experiencing here is a basic loss for words. We don't know why, but we think nudity is always about sex (speaking of the population in general).

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe think is the wrong word. Implicitly feel.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Certainly attitudes toward nudity and where it's appropriate vary widely across Europe.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Helsinki sauna FAP. No shirt, no shoes, no problem.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

What's the deal with threads that start with "What's the deal with..."? I always hear them in Jerry Seinfeld's voice.

― NA (Nick A.), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:24 (twenty-one years ago)

For a friend's hen night we were going to Paris and her sister suggested a trip to a hammam (it was women only). The utter horror from some of the girls really shocked me, the idea of being seen naked by other women totally freaked them out and we ended up not going. boo.

― Emma, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:24 (twenty-one years ago)

but here's what i don't get, teeny --> representations of the (fictional) maimed and killed = "the buying mood"??

good point; I'd say that gore/scary stuff gets the adrenalin going, makes you more suceptible to advertising messages?

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Skottie, did I mention that saunas in here are often unisex, especially amongst friends? With Ameicans, I suppose that would lead to a gangbang...

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe the more tension people have, the more that people want to relieve that tension, and as our options shrink for "pursuing pleasure and happiness" in America we default to the method that's thrown in our face each day: go buy stuff. nudity on TV wouldn't cause us to go buy stuff to relieve our tension, it would cause us to stay in and have a wank. that's time that could be spent at the mall!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

You can't show boobies on network TV, no matter what time of day or night.

Yes, you can! I have seen naked breasts on ER recently.

― tokyo rosemary (rosemary), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

susceptible! bah!

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

and much more eloquently put, tracer.

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Tuomas, what's the deal with you not finding furtive glimpses of nakedness to be explosively erotic?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I've noticed, Tuomas, that in America--even in same sex situations, like the sauna or steam room at a gym or health club--a lot of guys, probably most guys, keep towels tightly wrapped around themselves in the sauna, even though there are only other men present. There are a lot of body hang ups in the States, it's true. At my gym in Berlin, you're not allowed to have a towel in the steam room, and it's coed.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Tuomas, what's the deal with you not finding furtive glimpses of nakedness to be explosively erotic?

It's all in the context. For example, seeing a friend naked isn't be erotic, even if I think she's attractive. A nude scene in an non-erotic film doesn't do the trick, whereas in an erotic film a similar scene might be very titillating.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Then there's the homophobic aspect of it. "Is that guy checking me out? That guy is checking me out."

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Adam makes a good point: saunas in the US tend to be "saunas" (nudge nudge wink wink grope grope) as if there were no other reason to be naked and sweaty. Curiously enough, going to saunas over here has made me less weird about equating nudity with sex, but I still have that innate horror of seeing one of my parents naked that my wife thinks is ridiculous.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:35 (twenty-one years ago)

puritan settlement establishment in us = immediately in contact w.BIG danger of "going native" (ie not wearing clothes) = need to OVERDETERMINE value of clothedness beyond actual practical (previously normal) position

similar response in victorian england arises from sudden close contact with all kinds of routine nakedness among imperial conquered peoples?

AN ENGLISHMAN'S HOME IS HIS CASTLE = for some families it is perfectly unexceptionable to see one another w/nothing on, for others freaky beyond measure (non-communal privacy and seclusion is already pursued by victorians as a middleclass cultural norm in britain above and beyond in france, say - cf hyppolite tain's "note's on england", 1860s - but that's NON-naked seclusion and may be a response to earlier cheek-by-jowl urbanisation etc)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

A nude scene in an non-erotic film doesn't do the trick
Thou dost protest too much. Nude scenes in "non-erotic" films are generally meant to be erotic.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

What distinguishes when you see a friend naked and it's erotic and when you see a friend naked and it's not (assuming it's the same friend)?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

ICE CREAM!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

for some families it is perfectly unexceptionable to see one another w/nothing on, for others freaky beyond measure

I'm reminded of William Blake and his wife vs. that one Ripping Yarns Michael Palin did where the wife knits full body coverings for her husband.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

protocol in turkish baths in london seems to be have a towel or bathing trunks or nothing at all, whatever d00d

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

blake and wife came from radical antinomian backgrounds (muggletonians possibly)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Colin, every health club and gym built in the last 20 years has a sauna or a steamroom. Those aren't "saunas". But, I agree, if you're driving down the highway and see an ad for a sauna, it's totally a "sauna." The semiotics here is getting tortured.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Thou dost protest too much. Nude scenes in "non-erotic" films are generally meant to be erotic.

In America, yes.

What distinguishes when you see a friend naked and it's erotic and when you see a friend naked and it's not (assuming it's the same friend)?

I don't think seeing a friend is generally erotic, unless I happen to be attracted to that friend, which I rarely am.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, there's your problem! Your friends are all Finnish and hott! Go out and start appreciating them.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Sauna?
"Sauna"?
Sauna "Sauna"?
"Sauna" Sauna?
Finnish sauna?

I'm totally confused here. Skool me.

― Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:40 (twenty-one years ago)

What is the point of a sauna, btw? It's just to make you sweat, right? Is it really that good for you?

― Sean (Sean), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Tuomas, nude scenes in french cinema are all about eroticism. Ditto Italian cinema.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe I've watched too many episodes of Law & Order SVU, I don't know. Tuomas is more enlightened than I am on the sex and nudity front. And I'm okay with that.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Girolamo. The difference between "sauna" and sauna is the presence of quotation marks. Well, that should just about do it.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

A sauna is where you go to sit in steam and sweat out toxins.

A "sauna" is where you go to look at other people naked and hopefully find at least one person willing to help you create an orgasm.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:43 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.gofinland.org/web/us/publish.nsf/(PublishedSheets2)/EE9502B0A793A97287256B6000590257?openDocument&sheetList=ArtofLiving

I hope that link turns out. I (being an weird American, I guess), find it kinda funny that they have a whole section in the official tourist website about ("?)saunas("?).

― Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Finnish sauna means just going there and sweating, usually with your family or your friends (public saunas are somewhat rare nowadays). Lot's of Finnish apartments and houses have their own saunas, as well as most of the summer cottages. In the US, "sauna" apparently has dirtier connotations; in Finland it has absolutely nothing to do with sex.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Sheesh, like half of my sexual fantasies are based around the idea of seeing my female friends naked. And I mean, then I guess it progresses from there, but sometimes that's enough!

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:44 (twenty-one years ago)

'Many thousands of times, I have seen you naked, physically and psychically, without a mask, without a party card, without your 'popularity'. Naked like a new-born, naked like a field marshal in his underpants. You have complained and cried before me, have talked about your longings, and have disclosed your love and your grief. I know you and I understand you. I am going to tell you how you are, Little man, for I honestly believe in your great future. There is no doubt, it belongs to you. So, first of all, have a look at yourself. See yourself as you really are.

'You could have long since become the master of your existence, if only your thinking were in the direction of truth. You are cowardly in your thinking, Little Man, because real thinking is accompanied by bodily feelings, and you are afraid of your body.'

Wilhelm Reich, Listen Little Man

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

sauna has "dirty" (oh, no, more quotes!!!!!) connotations mainly when it's a stand-alone business. Then it's usually a front for prostitution, or a gay sex club. Gay sex clubs per se would be illegal in most municipalities, by the way. There isn't anything necessarily dirty about saunas attached to health clubs. Because then it's just sitting around naked and sweating like a bunch of randy-ass Finns!

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

In the US, if you're anything less than perfect, you should cover that shit up. Your parents should cover up because they're fat, old and gross, and no one should be forced to see fat, old, gross people naked.

I remember hiking in the desert, and people could always spot the German tourists, because you'd see less than perfect bodies squeezed into Speedos and walking around that way as if it were nothing. That would be unacceptable in the US.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm having trouble reconciling myself between wanting to be really nonchalant about casual nudity vs. wanting to see female friends naked because I would find it erotic.

― Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm just curious to know if any other American women would feel the slightest bit uncomfortable hanging out buck nekkid with a bunch of nekkid guys.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

haha reich wd totally have ripped that up and written something less silly if he'd
a. been to an english public school
b. watched or participated in a scene in a present-day gay sauna

naked != maskless or unable to form and manipulate power structures

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I did naked public bathing in an onsen in the hills outside Kyoto this summer and found it very civilised. The Japanese woman I was with asked if there was a mixed room where we could bathe together, but there wasn't. I'm quite happy with that remaining taboo, because I don't want to get too blase about nudity. Like Sunday, I'd like to keep it 'special'.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

and nudist colonies are a nightmare of bullying and manipulative moralism!!

(well i've never been but i have a friend who grew being taken on holiday to a big one in france every year w.her whole fambly till she wz 17) (sehe is v.sardonic INDEED abt the degree of "liberation from repression" attained within them)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

i like nudity. i like hanging out nude in the summer time with the windows open, then a nice cool breeze blows across the wedding tackle and all is right in the world.

― Chris V. (Chris V), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

because I don't want to get too blase about nudity

Why exactly?

― Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

America, Europe... BAH! You should all come to Canada. We're naked all the time and we're cool with it. Even in winter. Everything else you've been led to believe is a lie.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

(don't forget the entirely-shaved front bottom scene in "Sex and the City")

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Girolamo: Why don't I want to get blase about nudity? Well, I love green tea ice cream, but would I love it if I had it for breakfast, lunch and dinner?

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

The greek islands I've been to seem to have much less nude bathing now than they used to a number of years ago. Seems to have gotten more conservative.

If you're willing to fork out $350+ a night to stay at the Ventana Inn in Big Sur, California, you can bathe nude in mixed japanese hot baths or at one of the pools, looking at the great Pacific and the mountains at the same time. http://www.ventanainn.com/leisure.htm

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I have seen naked breasts on ER recently.

But I'm sure that didn't happen without a lot of backing and forthing between the show's producers and the network's Standards and Practices department, bickering over whether or not to allow it. And it was probably a sweeps month ploy, used because so many Americans are antsy about nudity, for various reasons.

I rented a tape of Father Ted recently and was startled by a brief but matter-of-fact shot of bare breasts and words like "shite." I know that the BBC is a little looser on such things, compared to U.S. networks.

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah as much as I'd like to be casual about it, if actually confronted with a mixed-gender finnish sauna, I don't know if I could handle it. It would probably be easier with strangers than friends!

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Jeanne, having exposed "penis" = 100000000000x more vulnerable and scary for man than the equivalent nudity for a woman, at least from my experience; i think 9999999 times out of 10000000 she would be firmly in the driver's seat in the situation you describe

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

(note: i have never actually been a woman)

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

teeny OTM. With strangers, no big deal. With friends......errrrhhh (of opp. sex).

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Compare: Stereotype of Finns as stoic and not given to displays of emotion & Stereotype of Finns as comfortable with casual nudity and not given to displays of hardons.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, tracer, I give. What's the difference between "penis" and penis?

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Uh, Tom of Finland to thread?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I believe that's Tom of "Finland"

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm just curious to know if any other American women would feel the slightest bit uncomfortable hanging out buck nekkid with a bunch of nekkid guys.

I'd be very uncomfortable because 1) I associate full-on nudity in the presence of others with sex or medical exams; and 2) I've bought into the concept that because my body isn't model-perfect it is therefore hideous.

(note: i have never actually been a woman)

Tiresias to thread!

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:05 (twenty-one years ago)

No, I'm pretty sure Tom was actually from Finland.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

He was indeed Finnish born and raised and etc.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah: http://www.tomoffinlandfoundation.org/foundation/touko.html

It's more like "Tom" of Finland, since his real name was Touko.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, those of you who haven't checked out http://www.tomoffinlandfoundation.org are missing out on a gem of a website.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I make everyone I know strip when I first meet them. That way no awkwardness later.

FAP, anyone?

― luna (luna.c), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:09 (twenty-one years ago)

is this what all finnish sauna's are like? [converted to link by poster's request]

― jed (jed_e_3), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:09 (twenty-one years ago)

"saunas" rather

― jed (jed_e_3), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

luna what if you meet in a bar??

by my above comment i mean that, fucked-up as the circumstance may be, female nudity holds a kind of power over men. and the reverse, male nudity, ALSO holds a kind of power over men, because it cuts their power-of-looking-at out from underneath them, like the Wizard of Oz behind his curtain - "oh, all that noise and smoke for THAT little shrively thing?" somehow i don't imagine the group of buck-nekkid guys being all porno-style randy and confident

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, I knew someone was going to post a pic to this thread sooner or later.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Apparently you're wrong, Tracer, judging by the pic above.
.
.
.
.
Actually, I think you're right.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll just get mine, shall I? (rummages)

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:13 (twenty-one years ago)

(Coat, I mean.)

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Note: Tuomas has fled the thread in disgust

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:15 (twenty-one years ago)

That etching of your last FAP is pretty good, Luna, but I don't think I'll be coming to your next one

*feels rather small all of a sudden*

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

They all look so happy somehow. Of course I guess you would be if you had a ....

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

haha ultimate x-post

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I rather be naked with my male friends than with strangers. I know that my friends aren't mentally ill and have no history of sexual assault and wouldn't dare take any liberties.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll just get mine, shall I? (rummages)
-- Momus (nic...), November 4th, 2003.

*rummages in pocket, pretends to look for "photo"*

― Mo-Mo Fan, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:18 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry - someone replace that tom of finland pic with a link or remove it?

― jed (jed_e_3), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:21 (twenty-one years ago)

i love how that guy's bucket has a ramp... for his cock??

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh come come, Jed, Tom of Finland is pure Taschen coffee table stuff, don't be such a prude.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus, not everyone works on your level. More to the point, not everyone's bosses work on your level.

(mine would probably approve, and she's my mum)

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

heh. i just had a pang of guilt after the warning was put up!

― jed (jed_e_3), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:27 (twenty-one years ago)

luna what if you meet in a bar??

I'll bring a handful of dollar bills and some tassles if it would make you more comfortable.

Also, I may yell "wooo, take it off cowboy" if I have a beer or three first.

― luna (luna.c), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i blame my erection.

holy xpost

― kephm, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:30 (twenty-one years ago)

why do the finns even wear clothes at all then? why bother?

― kephm, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:32 (twenty-one years ago)

On Finnish people and sauna nudity: when I was in Finland a few months ago, I went to a couple of parties where there were active saunas, but it was always the girls' turn and then the boys' turn. One of our hosts, after she'd had a few drinks, told me that when there weren't Americans present, everyone usually saunaed together at parties, and that "Finns like to pretend that it's totally non-sexual." Then she started giggling.

I will say, having done a bunch of Spencer Tunick's many-person nude mixed-gender photo shoots, that the atmosphere really isn't sexual, but it is pretty hilarious--there's a mass everyone-amusedly-checking-everyone-else-out vibe, but not in a creepy/unnerving way.

― Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Why do I suddenly want to be a tailor in Finland?

― luna (luna.c), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Good lord, those dudes in the pencil (?) artwork above!
These guys must have to put leashes on their schwantzen(es) and walk them like dogs.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Going into a sauna during a party??? I don't get it.

― Sean (Sean), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

moderator please delete humany

― dave mead, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's a point for you, Tuomas -- what's the big deal with not wanting to see someone else nude, huh? I don't ever want to see someone nude unless they happen to be a small child of mine (whom I'm cleaning up or helping get dressed) or someone I'm about to have intimate relations with. The mere idea of seeing my mother nude is a very disturbing and unpleasant one and I'm glad she isn't the type to just strip off and ta-da, show off. I wouldn't even want to show someone I thought was The One my nude self because I think my body looks disgusting and I want to work on it for at least a year before I even go out in public with a bathing suit on.

I want to keep myself covered up and want to see others covered up. I wear shirts and blouses that have as high a neckline as possible without making them into turtlenecks or shirts that choke the neck. The last time the top parts of my arms have seen daylight in public was when George Bush Sr. was president. This is how I choose to operate. Don't give me any shit about it, understood?

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

In America, you have the right to bear arms to shoot any family member who dares appear before you naked. You are not allowed to fuck the corpse, though.

You've not seen a week on Jerry Springer, apparently.

Going into a sauna during a party??? I don't get it.

Sean, the sauna is the party. At least, there isn't any messy cleanup, afterward....

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:01 (twenty-one years ago)

woah! - i doubt he would give you shit about it really. Hes just askin "whats the deal?" - the thread is about a specific cultural difference between countries.

― jed (jed_e_3), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

x post

― jed (jed_e_3), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:03 (twenty-one years ago)

woah! - i doubt he would give you shit about it really. Hes just askin "whats the deal?" - the thread is about a specific cultural difference between countries.

Okay, apologies. It's just that I'm feeling a bit touchy today and it seemed as though this thread was being totally disparaging to those of us who have more conservative mindsets in this aspect of life. Lord knows how unsurprising this will be, but I generally live a very conservative sort of life overall. But I don't attribute it to being American -- it's because of how I was raised, and I know my parents were/are never gung-ho "I'm proud to be American" types.

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, Dee, on the one hand, Tuomas wans't giving you any shit about it.

But:

I wouldn't even want to show someone I thought was The One my nude self because I think my body looks disgusting

No it's not. I mean, unless there some gaping sores problem I'm not aware of, your nude self looks like what a nude body looks like. (Not that I've seen it, of course, but I've seen pictures of you and I have seen women of your general build naked before.) It probably doesn't look all that different than most people's nude bodies. What's so disgusting about it? Or, more to the point, why are you so turned off by what normal people look like nude?

I mean, if you want to argue that it isn't a "hot bod" then that's one thing (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who would appreciate your body more than some anorexic bony covergirl's) but I can't see how you'd argue that it's "disgusting".

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Or, to put it another way: How would your life be different if you didn't think your body, as it is now, was disgusting? (And do you really think it's a conservative/liberal issue?)

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Dee, this view that you've a "disgusting" body has to change, as you aren't being fair to yourself. Truly, I can't name one friend that is entirely happy with their bodies. (Even the models you believe should be ecstatic because they can make a living from theirs, aren't.) However, I know we can all say whatever we want.

(My tiny two cents)

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Other advantage to finding oneself naked among a whole lot of other naked people for a relatively short period of time: you realize "oh, yes, there are actually a WHOLE LOT of body types out there, and they're basically all okay, and most are better than okay."

Lisa & I have twice done a photo project where we've taken regular & Polaroid photos of people (about 300 people total so far), all of them wearing a fish mask to cover their face & nothing else; then we write one specific, honest compliment about each person's body on their Polaroid, and give it to them... we did it at a big party a couple of months ago, and it was a MAJOR hit.

― Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

This is OTM. My guess is that Americans wouldn't have nearly as many body hang-ups, nor would they idealize certain body types, if they were simply exposed (haha) to more "normal" bodies.

Douglas, that photo project sounds like fun.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:28 (twenty-one years ago)

You are far too kind, Chris. No, there are no gaping sores or anything, but my body is lumpy. It's something I'm starting to try to rectify, so it's not as though I'm just complaining about it without actually doing anything about it, but for now I briefly glimpse at my reflection in the bathroom mirror before stepping into or out of the shower and shudder. I just feel that exhibiting one's body wholly would have to be the domain of someone who is fit and trim, or at the very least someone who is smooth and not at all lumpy.

And I'm equating these words and feelings with the statement that my body is disgusting and why I won't display it to anyone. I like my fellow human beings and don't wish to have negative experiences foisted upon them. :)

I suppose the whole conservative/liberal schism happens when I limit the range of people whom I'd show my total outer self to (to people whom I'd be involved in long-term relationships with) and when I think about what I'd wear should I move out of the plus-size department and into the regular sizes (a lot of jeans and t-shirts outfits and conservative dresses).

Nichole, you are also being far too kind here. If indeed this is part of the thing that is bigger than I am, I would need to talk this over with someone professional in order for me to find a way out of this way of thinking.

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Douglas, this sounds like a possibly lovely idea and all, but honestly, haven't you ever been stuck in a situation where you encounter someone and you can honestly not name a single positive attribute about their body? I definitely know you can name at least one positive attribute about any random person's personality or inner self, but the outer self? Heh, I'll just have to say that you obviously haven't encountered me. ;)

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I was also going to add to my last post: The problem with porn is not images of sex and nudity in and of themselves, but idealized images of sex and nudity that psychologically impact the way we see ourselves/others.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I would say that everyone has at least one positive attribute.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:35 (twenty-one years ago)

xp
But you know, I guess the same could be said for body images in most mainstream media.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:36 (twenty-one years ago)

No, there are no gaping sores or anything, but my body is lumpy.

But bodies are lumpy. That's what they do. I mean, it's OK to want to reduce the lumpiness, but it'll never be totally gone, and it's ok!

Also, check this out: http://homepage.mac.com/gapodaca/digital/digital.html

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Jaymc OTM. Nicolars too. (xp)

― JuliaA (j_bdules), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:40 (twenty-one years ago)

if they were simply exposed (haha) to more "normal" bodies.
Uh, we're getting way to polarized here. Americans have never seen anyone naked vs. Finns don't wear clothes. Hooooooolllllllddddd on. Americans know what people look like naked. Europeans aren't naked that much more often than Americans are. Europeans don't treat the issue at all uniformly. In many ways, Europeans enjoy/labor under a much more repressed set of social norms than americans do. "das tut man nicht." (one doesn't do that) is the first phrase in German a newcomer needs to learn.

Anyway, Tuomas seems to have fled the thread.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

And another thing...my body ain't lumpy!

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, we've done the project with several hundred people so far, have encountered MANY MANY body types (small/large/lumpy/taut/wrinkly/smooth/whatever), and have never had a problem coming up with at least one genuine compliment. Despite the number of people (mostly women, sadly, but some men too), who say things along the lines of "betcha aren't going to be able to come up with one for me..."

And the general reaction we get when people see the pictures is "wow, you're right, they actually are all beautiful if you give them permission to be!"

(n.b. if there are regulars here who would like to see the URL where we've got a bunch of them, email me privately--I just don't want it posted/circulated in public.)

― Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:43 (twenty-one years ago)

No idea about women's lockerroom, but I think in general, women are more private, according to my ex.

Don't know about that. I've never seen any of my male friends naked, but every girl I've ever known has seen every female friend of hers naked.

But why do you feel this way? Such an attitude doesn't come from nowhere.

We don't know why, but we think nudity is always about sex (speaking of the population in general).

Because in America that's the only time people ARE nude, in everyday life and in TV/movies. The two are so closely associated because there is no other situation where two people are nude around one another than during sex.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Eh, I agree that most Americans haven't seen enough naked people and are too convinced that people should look like models, and that they should feel bad that they don't look like (computer-, drug-, and anorexia-enhanced) models.

And another thing...my body ain't lumpy!

Oh, give it time.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow, Casuistry, those images are disturbing. I mean, like those people were hideous before the airbrushing/photoshop. They should stay inside. Yech, have some self respect! What?....whadaya mean I don't get....?

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course I am balding fast and have steamer trunks under my eyes...

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Americans see each other naked. It's just when we're drunk out of our minds so we can't see straight anyway and playing strip poker.

Good link, Chris.

― JuliaA (j_bdules), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Sex and nudity sell better when they're contraband.
-- Casuistry (chri...), November 4th, 2003 4:08 PM.

Casuistry seems to be OTM a lot on this thread. Which, btw, I fail to see how it is work un-safe.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks, Nick.

Did someone linkify the Tom of Finland picture? That's the only non-worksafe thing (so far, eep).

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:50 (twenty-one years ago)

hey, the filthy dirty scummy and yet surprisingly lifelike drawing is gone! Shazam!

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 18:53 (twenty-one years ago)

The most disturbing of the set Casuistry posted was the guy whose tummy/chest were slimmed down -- he looked perfectly fine before! If I saw that "before" picture on its own I would never come to the conclusion that he needed to be slimmed down.

― Annouschka (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah - but you're a chubbychaser!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, i'm chubby too

― Annouschka (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:03 (twenty-one years ago)

i am both 'phat' (like nate newton) and 'fat' (like leon lett). I am not however 'nude' (like troy aikman).

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Love the body you've got vs. 66% of americans are overweight. Could also have something to do with it. Europeans, unfortunatley, are joining the trend and getting heavier.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:07 (twenty-one years ago)

the term "chubbychaser" really needs to be removed from the english language, stat.

― Annouschka (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:07 (twenty-one years ago)

anyhows, the seinfeld on this provided more 'insight' (like emmitt smith) and 'laffs' (like alvin harper) than this thread, although the linkification of the tom of finland pic speaks VOLUMES more than anything else.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:08 (twenty-one years ago)

66% of americans are overweight

yeah, and a lot of people have terrible eyesight too... where's the national crisis over that?

i'll shut up now.

― Annouschka (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I was going to suggest an alternative used by a 'friend' of mine, but it is offensive in the extreme. "Chubbychaser" is positively charming in comparison.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:08 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, I love specs porn!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuck you and your glasses and contacts! My poor eyesight is just who I be! *finger snaps*

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:10 (twenty-one years ago)

reason for being anti-nudity = reason for being anti-shorts on grown men in public? (ie. THE BLINDING GLARE)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Skinny dipping is the best thing ever.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)

also: men = disgusting looking (with certain exceptions - jude law, spencer chow, etc.)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)

And anyway, we're not really talking about not feeling comfortable with the way you look, we're talking about thinking that it's wrong to be nude with people you're not fucking. That's a very different, although possibly related topic.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Bullshit, Blount.

Also, glasses = sexxy. No, make that sexxxy.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:13 (twenty-one years ago)

skinny dipping = k-classic! (unless with michael stipe)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:13 (twenty-one years ago)

glasses = kkkkkkkkkk-sexxxy!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe some people would like to be fucking everyone?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I said certain exceptions!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe some people would like to be fucking everyone?

< /apu>

― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:15 (twenty-one years ago)

glasses also no good skinny dipping or in the sauna, but it's still fun in spite of the blindness

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:15 (twenty-one years ago)

glasses horrible in the sauna! (it burns)(also bad in the sauna: sitting on a nail)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't imagine anything that would be fun to do with Michael Stipe.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

It would be fun to throw things at him.

― Nicolars (Nicole), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Douglas, I read "compliment" as "complaint" and I was thinking, "Douglas is a jerk and his friends are masochists." Heh heh, whoopsie.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Sitting on nail in sauna: CLASSIC thing to happen to someone else. Watch the jumping bean hopping around with a burned ass or worse!

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:18 (twenty-one years ago)

glasses also no good skinny dipping or in the sauna, but it's still fun in spite of the blindness

Fun, with burning eyes and nowhere to hang your glasses?

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

(good in the sauna: sitting on a naif)

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

plastic framed and lensed don't burn but the do mist up.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:20 (twenty-one years ago)

real reason american men wear towels in the sauna: to prevent dread testes to hot nail contact! (what the deal with europeons and testes to hot nail contact?)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

B-but I am a jerk and my friends are masochists!...

― Douglas (Douglas), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

long article in the Washington Post about this very topic:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30524-2003Oct28.html

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I read that this morning. At the end, the reporter chickens out and can't get naked in front of other people. What a dud.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I do wonder, actually, why Americans so compulsively wrap the towels in lockerrooms when it's only other guys around. Not all, but a lot do.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

It may be a more recent phenom that the Victorian age, in fact may be a product of post-50s affluence in the States. It became expected that every child had his/her own bedroom and an unprecedented degree of personal privacy, as houses grew larger, on average, after WWII.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Um, it's because of us gay types.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, I don't want to take all the credit...

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

really?

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

real reason american men wear towels in the sauna: to prevent dread testes to hot nail contact! (what the deal with europeons and testes to hot nail contact?)

Countersunk screws.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Why not, CP? I say to take whatever kudos you can while you can get away with it....

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

You're gay??? [quickly covers self]

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Me as an American totally does the covering up when changing in front of other people thing, but It's not out of fear of being seen nude it's out of thinking that others may not want to see me nude.

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Interesting lack of Brits here: I'm not sure that we aren't closer to the Americans in this than to the Finns. I've been naked in front of men in changing rooms loads of times without it ever troubling me, and in front of several friends (male and female) for various reasons, all of which could have been avoided with no real trouble. Similarly, I've seen several friends naked in non-sexual circumstances and not had sexual thoughts about them.

And Dee, I've seen photos of you. I wish you didn't have such a low self-image - it really is not warranted at all.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

What I'm saying is I'm a result of the culture; the culture is not a result from me. I think many Americans are this way too.

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Me as an American totally does the covering up when changing in front of other people thing, but It's not out of fear of being seen nude it's out of thinking that others may not want to see me nude.

Yeah totally. I just don't want to make the situation awkward. It gets tricky when I don't want to see someone ELSE naked because I don't want to feel awkward for them feeling awkward about me seeing them naked.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

It's probably that Americans try to avoid awkwardness much more then other cultures.

― A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah but why don't you want to see them naked?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought I explained that clearly.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Basically, we're all scared of looking like pervs, whether it be by being nude (exhibitionism) or by looking at others who are nude (voyeurism)

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't be some hung up on nudity. We're not!

http://www.cenedella.com/images/album4.gif

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah but why don't you want to see them naked? They're, like, NAKED! Dude, check it out. When will you get another chance to see them naked? If they feel awkward afterwards you can send them an e-card or something and they'll feel better.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Life is way better when you just assume everyone is a total pervdog.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Since, I mean, they are.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

If you're in a lockerroom changing with a bunch of other guys and getting weird about being seen naked, that's weird.

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

last 3 posts otm

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:55 (twenty-one years ago)

What happens when you're wrong, though, CP? Do you apologise or just slink out?

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

When I'm wrong about what?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, these guys are the reason men keep their towels pulled so tightly around their loins in the sauna:

http://www.cenedella.com/images/album7.gif

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 21:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Y'all want me to get naked with y'all all up in that sauna? For real? You betta forget about that, sucka!

http://www.cenedella.com/images/album5.gif

― Skottie, Tuesday, 4 November 2003 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

hahaha the last two are great.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

is everyone else's gym crowded with naked or nearly naked old men? cuz mine is

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 21:12 (twenty-one years ago)

and it's WONDERFUL!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 21:12 (twenty-one years ago)

"Gym Friskiness With Blount?" That DVD just screams classic

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 22:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I deliberately got naked just to post to this thread.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I accidentally got naked

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 22:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Whatever you do, do not attempt to press return with your scrotum. Ouch.

In all seriousness, surely the Brit/Yank parallel can be drawn from the fact that this thread has hundreds of replies already whereas my Naturism - classic or dud? thread got about thirty, and they were almost entirely Brits posting in an 'ooer matron' manner.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 22:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Some of that also had to do with the time of day it was posted.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:30 (twenty-one years ago)

(I suspect.)

― Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:31 (twenty-one years ago)

And that some of us are a bit slow and didn't realize that Naturism is the same as Nudism.

― JuliaA (j_bdules), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:33 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, I thought it was some raw foodist mumbojumbo

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:35 (twenty-one years ago)

It isn't. Nudism is just being nude. Naturism is being nude and doing things. Like the laundry. Or playing tennis. *shivers*

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:36 (twenty-one years ago)

tennis clothes are so nice - why would you play that nude!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Plus, it hurts to run whilst unrestrained.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:37 (twenty-one years ago)

also, cooking in the buff ain't necessarily the best idea, either.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Especially frying stuff.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Plus I'm always paranoid of being naked in changing rooms and stuff in case the guy next to me has a much bigger dick, frankly.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't have that problem

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:47 (twenty-one years ago)

why, you don't like changing rooms?

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:48 (twenty-one years ago)

No, he's generally got a rock on.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:49 (twenty-one years ago)

That's great that you've accepted your smallness.

(massive xpost)

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I have no problems with nudity where it's expected; changing rooms, saunas, the great outdoors etc.

I would one to offend anyone with my flabby naked form but I'd question their offense.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I have attached a frozen lasagna to my pubes with masking tapes - other fellers get a gander and think 'Gawd what a massive schlong'

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Is it still in the packaging? How does it stay frozen? Does it not shrink you? Is there not the danger of italian dogs eating your genitals? We need answers.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:54 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, it's still in the 'packaging'

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I caught custosvirus

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:55 (twenty-one years ago)

It's only mild; you didn't go schiz with the HTML.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:56 (twenty-one years ago)

It disturbs me that I'm going to bed with images of Blount's bollocks being chowed down by italian labradors.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:57 (twenty-one years ago)

IS that catching? And may I slap NJ across the knuckles for that image? Thank you....

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 4 November 2003 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

It looks something....like this...
http://www.brake.co.uk/brprods/30876_lasagne.jpg

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Sean Carruthers to thread, obv., for his excessive Photoshop skillz.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Poor Tuomas started this thread in such an earnest spirit of scientific inquiry into cultural differences. And now it's turned into lasagne. On the other hand, he did post the following to the "Fashions you miss" thread, giving a clue as to why Finns actually prefer seeing each other nude to seeing each other clothed...

I miss the early nineties Euro-hip hop fashion, you know, über-wide trousers and big sweatshirts with weird pictures or patterns in 'em. And the assortment of colours! Orange, light green, light blue, even pink! It's the only time in my life I've looked cool wearing a pair of orange jeans the size of a tent.
Compared to that, the US hip hop fashion always looked bland to me.

-- Tuomas (tuomas.alh...), June 27th, 2003.

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

cock, balls

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Good point, well made.

X-post - Blount go outside and come back in when you've learnt how to behave.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:17 (twenty-one years ago)

cock, balls

Hey, that was my standard convenience-store-bought dinner when I was a sophomore in college!

― Girolamo Savonarola, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm referring to the picture (hopefully obviously).

― Girolamo Savonarola, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:31 (twenty-one years ago)

That is is some serious convenience that store offered.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"Coffee, tea, or ME!?!"

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"You could get a larger Slurpee for just a few cents more..."

― Casuistry (Chris P), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 00:36 (twenty-one years ago)

"want a Big Gulp?"

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

is everyone else's gym crowded with naked or nearly naked old men? cuz mine is

There's a Mike Nelson essay you really need to read.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 02:04 (twenty-one years ago)

mike nesmith?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 02:08 (twenty-one years ago)

No, I would not force that on anyone.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 02:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Where are all of these gym locker rooms where everyone's naked? In the one that I go to, everyone changes before they get there.

― Christine 'Green Leafy Dragon' Indigo (cindigo), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 02:47 (twenty-one years ago)

ew! what about after they work out?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 02:49 (twenty-one years ago)

get in yr, drive home and shower

― A Girl Named Sam (thatgirl), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 02:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha "sauna"!- I can't believe ppls picked up on that so much.

Don't make me tell my Budapest public baths story.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 07:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Go on, then, give us a story!

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 07:08 (twenty-one years ago)

No, I'm too shy about my naked body.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 07:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Well you don't have to include photos in your story. Crude drawings will suffice.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 07:11 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.clegg.fsnet.co.uk/images/during/latest/1139.jpeg

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 07:11 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.hungarotips.com/hungary/spas/gell2.gif

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 07:13 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.kunsthalle-emden.de/akt/img/schiele.jpg

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 07:14 (twenty-one years ago)

An alien in human skin tried to have you removed with heavy machinery from a public bath because you wouldn't move your hands away from your crotch?

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 07:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, sure, that happens a lot in Hungary.

There he is that hairy hound from Budapest. Never have I ever seen a ruder pest.

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 07:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Adam, you're such a tease!

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 08:06 (twenty-one years ago)

What More Can I Say? What More Can I Do?

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 08:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Change Clothes and Go!

― rob geary (rgeary), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 08:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, I didn't leave this thread because I was scared, but because my school building was closed, and I don't have a computer at home.

This was one of the best things said on this thread. I think because of all those unisex saunas Finns don't feel so ashamed of their bodies. Seeing people regularly reveals that nobody has a perfect body, and then again, everybody has beautiful body. Also, it helps to have a non-complicated attitude towards nudity, one where you don't automatically associate it with sex; but you can have erotic nudity as well, it's all in the context.

I'm not saying everybody should regularly get butt-naked against their will, but it'd probably help to lessen the negative feelings some people here feel towards their bodies. I was pretty sad to read Dee's comment about her body being disgusting; it isn't, Dee, since no body is. That's just the effect the current Western beauty standards have on people, and I think seeing "regular" naked bodies might just be a good counter-medicine against that effect, even if it isn't the whole solution. Ultimately, however, we need to get rid of such standards, because their quite damaging both mentally and physically.

One of our hosts, after she'd had a few drinks, told me that when there weren't Americans present, everyone usually saunaed together at parties, and that "Finns like to pretend that it's totally non-sexual." Then she started giggling.

Of course you can say that nothing's non-sexual, but I can assure you sauna isn't any more sexual than any other ordinary situation where you spend time with the members of the opposite sex (or the same sex, if you're gay). For starters, as I've understood it's quite hard even to get hard-on in sauna (the Finnish sauna is quite hot, from 70 to 90 degrees Celsius); that Tom of Finland picture isn't in any way realistic. Also, because saunaing is such a commonplace thing in Finland, and people do it from childhood to old age, it surely hasn't any more sexual aura for Finns than any other commonday activity. I'm sure a foreigner unaccustomed to unisex saunas could find the experience erotic, but were he to stay longer in Finland, the effect would soon wear off.

Going into a sauna during a party??? I don't get it.

You'll have to understand that sauna is a big, big part of Finnish life; many apartments and most single-family houses have their own sauna, and people go there on weekly bases, with family or with friends. So if you're having a party in a place where there's sauna, it's quite common for someone to warm it up and for people to go there at some point during the evening. It's also quite common to have "sauna evenings" where people gather up especially for the reason of saunaing, socializing with friends and drinking some beer (there is even a Finnish phrase "sauna beer", which refers to the beer you drink after you come out of the sauna).

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 09:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Come on, that wasn't just a Finnish thing. Even East 17 wore those tent-size trousers back then...

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 10:06 (twenty-one years ago)

MC Hammer.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 10:07 (twenty-one years ago)

HI DERE

― Amazing Randy, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 10:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you have something more to say?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 10:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Tuomas, thank god your back!

Ummmmm., obv. teasing about the tent trousers....kind of..... :-)

I still don't buy this notion of seeing other people naked makes you feel better about yourself. It implies that people don't know what other people actually look like naked, when of course, they know all too well. Every body and everybody is beautiful. No they're not. Some people need to get up off the couch and ride a bike or take a walk and stop eating so much frozen lasagne. It's possible to look better and if you try, you'll oddly feel better about yourself. [okay, okay, okay, up to a point....]

Current western beauty standards...there have always been "current" western beauty standards, people have always been self conscious if they looked different, say dark complected in the middle ages when fair skin ruled, too thin, too fat, whatever. Humans have standards, that's what makes us humans. Right now, it's thin, but you can't blame the media for everything. People know what looks good.

Your question is still interesting, but it has much more to do with Americans (and I think english too) equating nudity with sex on a basic level. Even in europe at nude or mixed beaches, it's usually the older people who are totally nude. Young people tend not to be nude as much.

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 11:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll bet that if the amazing randy were in a sauna, he'd be nude. And amazing.

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 11:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Skottie, I disagree - when I'm in the gym changing room I see such a variety of naked bodies, thin, fat, in-between... and none of them are 'perfect', because of course none of them have been airbrushed to within an inch of their lives. Thin girls have cellulite or spotty backs or whatever. Fat girls have great skin or nicer boobs or whatever. The point is that the beauty standards are such bullshit because even the gym bunny slim girls aren't 'perfect'. So seeing all those other women does make me feel better about my own body.

― Emma, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 12:02 (twenty-one years ago)

of course, in england everyone walks around in the buff all the time...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, I think that's what I was saying too, actually, even if it seems like the opposite. I mean, one does see naked people in the course of ordinary activities. Some look good, some don't, no one looks perfect, it's all good. But Tuomas's original question still stands, why don't Americans (and I suspect Brits too) like to hang out together naked, mixed genders, families? And I'm saying it's not because we don't know what other people look like naked; we do. It's deeper than that.

But I will still say, that although every body has its flaws, it's not ridiculous slaving to the media culture to try to look as "good" as you can, within reason. Obviously, if you're in the gym changing room seeing these other naked people, Emma, you feel that way too. There are also a lot of health advantages, etc. Europeans still aren't as fat as Americans. Americans are simply enormous, statistically, many morbidly obese. Learning to love your extra 75-100 lbs. or more isn't a good solution.

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I am certainly not 'slaving to the media culture to look as good as I can' in the gym, I am doing something that makes my body feel better and healthier and stops me from getting ill all the time. But I agree that people shouldn't be complacent / accepting about obesity.

― Emma, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I phrased that wrong. Going to the gym regularly should not be equated with slaving to the media culture. Which is what you said. I think. :-)

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks for the responses, guys. I'm still not feeling it inside, but maybe someday in the future I will find that little bit inside that will help me arrive at that destination.

people have always been self conscious if they looked different, say dark complected in the middle ages when fair skin ruled, too thin, too fat, whatever

This is starting to remind me of that Curiosity Killed The Cat song, "Misfit", you know -- "Too fat, too thin, you lose or you win/This may come as some surprise/Too tall, too short, too loose or too taut/There'll be a bind for every kind". Great, catchy pop song. Just not feeling it at the moment.

*laughs* I won't get into the issues I've been dealing with over my skin color in this thread, btw. I think that's another thread altogether. :)

― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 13:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I never see naked people other than the fakey ones in magazines! I suppose this is because I don't go to the gym (or sauna).

― teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 13:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Or watch 70s porn

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

you never invite me over anymore oops.

― teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 14:04 (twenty-one years ago)

it's a standing invite

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 14:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I wasn't saying that severe obesity is okay, but nowadays people who aren't obese think that they need to lose weight to be desirable/good-looking, and they feel enormous guilt because of this, and they think they're bodies are disgusting because they don't look like the media figures. And yes, there have always been standards, but I nowadays the standards are far more pervasive thanks to the ubiquous nature of Western media. I bet the village folks in the middle age knew little about such standards, and besides, it was okay to be chubby then even amongst the upper class. So things have gone worse, no doubt.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 14:15 (twenty-one years ago)

"nowadays"

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, ever since the 20th century, maybe even 19th. But it's gotten worse since the media has become more powerful, and it affects more people more deeply. Beauty standards used to a upper-class concern, but nowadays they affect everyone, and the Western standards are being transported to the Third World as well.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)

That's why we're shipping all our old Stairmasters to the third world! It's a win/win!

― Skottie, Wednesday, 5 November 2003 16:14 (twenty-one years ago)

if americans had no hangups about nudity, the girls gone wild empire, and all its money, would not exist. think about what that would mean for a) the economy b) the tourist business of new orleans at mardi gras/florida at spring break/south padre island at the same time c) women who get so angry on the jerry springer show that they HAVE TO TAKE OFF THEIR CLOTHES

― maura (maura), Wednesday, 5 November 2003 23:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i hate locker rooms- they always smell something like elephant trashand suffocation.. i can not stand the sight of other nude bodies really. beauty is grotesque. and vice versa .whoop dee do.i am a polite guy, i wear shorts to the beach and i hold elevator doors open for my fellow man.. and i like this. btw: WHO wants sand in the aSs??not i., . mainly, i hate all the fucking mirrors in a gym. why do they need so many? anyways i am a private guy. my showers are for me and my soapies not me and my homies. fuck going to the gym. so i do sit ups in my bedroom and listne to npr. i also do it outside, climb trees, ambush squirrels, run after the ducks, whatever. i can not stand the many mirrors in one place at the gym thing. it drives me out of my mind. that is for the privacy of a trance out/eye on the pyrmaid kind of afternoon. not for the gym. anyways-your saunas sound nice -i wish i had one for my smelly feet. i just got home and have soaked my left foot on my way in . see you-time to shower....alone.hehheh oh and i tried all this liberation anarchy vrap to try to get myself out of my american head and it didnt really do me no good. i mean i use less water these days...but som eboundries are set up and won tbe broken...for some of us....always remember:fro some of us.....anyways we are what we are, people cant ever really escape where the blood spurtaz out of can they? .....blame the last 100 years of the american system for the warmachines , shitty skools. so we dont get nude in the bathhouse, i dunno -about 10 other things that top that at the moment. also: nothing wrong with a good towel wrapped around the ass after a steaming shower.peace

― kephm, Thursday, 6 November 2003 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Without all the mirrors in the gym, it would be much harder for people to surreptitiously stalk that girl/guy they're been following for weeks now. Uh..oh, yes...anyway...

― Skottie, Thursday, 6 November 2003 05:31 (twenty-one years ago)

There was another point I forgot to make yesterday...

Everbody and everybody is beautiful. No they're not. Some people need to get up off the couch and ride a bike or take a walk and stop eating so much frozen lasagne. It's possible to look better and if you try, you'll oddly feel better about yourself. [okay, okay, okay, up to a point....]

As much I agree with you about (severe) obesity being unhealthy, I disagree with beauty and healthiness/slimness being the same thing. You can say to an obese person that he should lose some weight to avoid cardiovascular diseases, osteoarthritis etc., but it is a different thing to say that he should lose weight because he's not beautiful. Health and aesthetics are not the same. Of course you could argue that the guilt of not corresponding to the beauty standards will cause the person to lose weight, but because today's standards are so absurdly strict, I don't think it's the best way to deal wíth obesity. Mild obesity is not even a particularly big health risk (in fact according to some studies it may even benefit health, especially with women), but we've been lead to believe it's not beautiful, which is wrong. I'd rather live in a world where it's okay to be chubby than in a world where everyone wants to be slim because it's "beautiful".

(I sometimes feel like a hypocrite saying these things, when I myself am a 65-kilo weakling, but at least I'm not slim because of a concious choice, or because I'd feel uncomfortable if I were heavier. It's just hard for me to gain weight.)

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 6 November 2003 08:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Tuomas, I think you're really lovely.

― luna (luna.c), Thursday, 6 November 2003 09:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks. Although I thought I was just stating the obvious.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 6 November 2003 09:58 (twenty-one years ago)

two years pass...

Ah, the days of innocence!

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 10:17 (nineteen years ago)

you're not real.

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

???

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 14:11 (nineteen years ago)

nudity is real. americans aren't. Tuomas is a mix. Wayne is everything.

that said, it's true that in France, for instance, we have nudity here, there and everywhere... and somehow, we're not blasés !

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:23 (nineteen years ago)

I do maintain that Tuomas left ILX a few months ago and that "lixnixn" is a parody-Tuomas.
-- jaymc (jmcunnin...) (webmail), January 31st, 2006 1:15 PM. (jaymc) (later) (link)

xpost

we should start a newsgroup...
alt.fan.thewayne

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

besides which, has anyone ever seen an american nude? ick, no thanks!

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

I don't really get this "parody-Tuomas" thing. As this thread should prove, I could get even more obnoxius in the past.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

i don't really find your attitude obnoxious here, Tuomas (and concerning the "parody-Tuomas" thing, from what i understood, seems you've been surprised by something on the "SNOGH" thread which you'd already have known or something...i think you were surprised "hooters" existed while you'd already talked about it before... anyway, you should be flattered, there's a "paul is dead" thing about this !)

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:14 (nineteen years ago)

we should start a newsgroup...
alt.fan.thewayne

and we should add a photoshoped Wayne into every thread... a godlike presence...

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:16 (nineteen years ago)

To be fair, I think Ally is misremembering -- I looked it up and couldn't find Tuomas inquiring about Hooters prior to last week.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:18 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, you're not obnoxious at all. i'm really fascinated actually. i think one of the best things you'd ever posted was some statement about how you lived in a commune with a bunch of liberated women, but then a couple posts later something like "but that's what we here in finland just call a shared apartment". that was awesome.

xpost: either that or kenC's mspaint wayne. in a sense, wayne IS every ilxor.

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:18 (nineteen years ago)

either that or kenC's mspaint wayne. in a sense, wayne IS every ilxor.

it's our molten calf !

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't know that Hooters was a restaurant (and an airline, pparently) until that thread. I'd seen the name mentioned on some other ILE thread in the past, but I didn't know what it referred to (I guess I though it was a strip joint or something).

As for my obnoxiousness on this thread, I mean that back in the day I tended to emphasize a bit too much both my and my country's presumed liberality in contrast to, say, the US. The difference noticeable are interesting, but I don't want to give the picture that everything's so much better in here.

i think one of the best things you'd ever posted was some statement about how you lived in a commune with a bunch of liberated women, but then a couple posts later something like "but that's what we here in finland just call a shared apartment". that was awesome.

Hmm, what's so awesome about that? If I remember correctly several other ILXors live or have lived in a shared flat with members of the other gender.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

"The difference is"

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

someone's reaction at the time was "OH so that explains all of the pictures" and then when you said that it wasnt a commune in the hippie sense of the word, there was an ironythere which was awesome :D

again, im not sure what obnoxiousness you're reffering to.

― AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 17:34 (nineteen years ago)

one year passes...

you're not real.

-- AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 14:07 (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 18:52 (seventeen years ago)

I though that joke had gone passe ages ago.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 07:51 (seventeen years ago)

/firends naked

I keep reading this as fire ends, like an ass on fire.

― stevienixed, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 08:54 (seventeen years ago)

three years pass...

This is still the thing that is most strange to me about American family life. I've lived here for 9 years, do all the ritual holidays, enjoy the food, mostly, can live, laugh, and drive like am American. Then you get to the fact that many Americans have never, when living at home, seen their adult family members naked. WTF? Family vacations in swimsuits are fine, but you wear clothes into the bathroom and a towel out every time? There's an *ew* (as if you're judging it's aesthetic or sexual appeal) if you see a family member's penis or boob? Are you really judging its aesthetic or sexual appeal? Cos if so, oddest.

― paulhw, Sunday, 19 December 2010 04:17 (fourteen years ago)

oddesty blaise

― buzza, Sunday, 19 December 2010 05:04 (fourteen years ago)

I've seen all my siblings naked (shared baths when we were kids, etc.)

― mauricio kagel exercise (corey), Sunday, 19 December 2010 05:26 (fourteen years ago)

Why do you want to see your relatives naked?

― congratulations (n/a), Sunday, 19 December 2010 05:41 (fourteen years ago)

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100707030600AAjqcly

― buzza, Sunday, 19 December 2010 19:37 (fourteen years ago)

nine months pass...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/san-francisco-nudity-restrictions-provoke-the-nakedly-ambitious.html?_r=1

Some of the nudists at the rally seemed to already be adhering to the sought-after decorum by sitting on newspapers. In fact, The San Francisco Bay Guardian, one of the city’s weeklies, explicitly advertised its usefulness for just that purpose, printing a special clip-out page in last week’s issue. The page pointed out that newsprint was a 100 percent recyclable seat guard, and in bold type it said: “If you go bare, put ’er there.”

― some lady (La Lechera), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 02:46 (thirteen years ago)

I don't want it burned into my memory. But it's not a big deal if it happens accidentally. Siblings of the opposite sex, though - that's weird and gross.

― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Don Nots (Mount Cleaners), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 04:49 (thirteen years ago)

Do you ever think about what if your workplace got robbed, and the bad guys made all the employees take off all their clothes for some plot reason?

― Zachary Taylor, Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:06 (thirteen years ago)

europeans shocked and bewildered abt americans 'attitudes toward nudity and/or sex' is one of the phenomena reliably highest in poorly disguised self regard

― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:13 (thirteen years ago)

one might ask 'why are europeans so weird abt americans being so weird abt nudity'

― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:14 (thirteen years ago)

what is the deal with airplane food

― yung huma (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:14 (thirteen years ago)

Unfortunately the nudity on display here is usually performed by the people you'd least want to see nude. Also, mostly tourists/suburbanites.

― citation needed (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:14 (thirteen years ago)

Re: robbers making people take their clothes off. Thankfully that sounds like some crazy shit from the seventies. Those sick fucks would have to have their eyeballs ripped out. That's all I have to say. I don't take losing well.

― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Don Nots (Mount Cleaners), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:15 (thirteen years ago)

its like ive had a number of germans for whatever reason over the years lecture me abt americans being sexually repressed and im all yeah well every country has their version of that i guess *rolls eyes*

― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:16 (thirteen years ago)

like for instance in Europe they have violent Islamophobia

― ilx user 'silby' (silby), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:24 (thirteen years ago)

Younger Americans are not conservative enough - skirts too high, pants too low! Kids go to school with their butt cheeks and underwear hanging out! In front of the elderly!

― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Don Nots (Mount Cleaners), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:29 (thirteen years ago)

mount wieners

― ☂ (max)

― buzza, Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:34 (thirteen years ago)

It would be my guess that the taboo against seeing family members naked in the USA (and Canada?) is probably connected withe the incest taboo - not that the two acts have any real similarity or remotely similar consequences - but that sexuality, and nakedness beyond the age of (roughly) toddlers are inextricably bound together in the US psyche.

― Aimless, Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:42 (thirteen years ago)

is there not an incest taboo in europe?

― yung huma (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:48 (thirteen years ago)

i mean i know in central europe like 45% of fathers keep their daughters locked up as sex slaves for 33 years but

― yung huma (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:49 (thirteen years ago)

Taboos manifest themselves differently in different societies. The prudishness of Americans has always far exceeded the general norms in Europe.

― Aimless, Tuesday, 27 September 2011 05:50 (thirteen years ago)

Never discount the impact of bullying, kids can be so mean and they condition each other to disrespect your parents. You know, yer mama is fat and ugly and all of that.

― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Don Nots (Mount Cleaners), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 06:05 (thirteen years ago)

what is the deal with airplane food

― yung huma (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 07:14 (2 hours ago) Bookmark

lol

A+ thread from top to bottom (see what I did dere)

― Young Swell (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 07:41 (thirteen years ago)

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