What's the deal with Americans and nudity? [WORK-SAFE AGANE HURRAH]

That's exactly my point: why is it eeewww? I know I'm talking at a very stereotypical level, but that doesn't change the fact there seems to be a general difference, and I was wondering why is it so?

Also, said sex would create ice cream sundaes for post-coital noshing. There would also be cheerleaders during the act.

I mean, what are the roots of such an attitude? Does it have to do with Christianity? Puritanism? Does anyone know?

Who are you, Charlie Sheen?

You wanna come up for some coffee, Dan?

Dude! sons & mums? eurgh!

in fact, what act WOULDN'T be improved with the addition of chocolate sauce, cherries, and sprinkled nutz?

You tease.

The middle ground i.e Penthouse/Playboy has withered as tastes have become polarised. Quite what that says about America I'm not too sure, though donut bitch (and Momus) will have something to add.

How is this not a good reason?

unless they pay you, of course, or you're really, really drunk.

But why do you feel this way? Such an attitude doesn't come from nowhere. I've seen my mom and dad naked several times, and I've never thought "it's my DAD" or "it's my MUM for chrissakes". So it has probably everything to do with religion and morality. It's a very Christian thought that nudity equals with sexuality. Even you calling your dad's penis a cock reveals something.

Yeah, but you're only adding fuel to Tuomas's query there. you don't have to LIKE it! just that it is true... Americans (and probably people of many other countries) are very squeamish about the idea of seeing other family members naked.

As I said, the division is not that simple, I'm making generalisations here, but some sort of difference clearly exists. I'd say that in Europe nudity isn't necessarily titillating or dirty, but it can be that too.

What about the other parent? Or friends?

Hollywood box office takings totalled 8 billion dollars in 2002.

Adult videos took 20 billion dollars in 2003.

Americans like Israel and Hollywood, but they like nudity more.

the english puritans who seized power (ie not the above, who carried on being persecuted) were certainly anti PUBLIC nudity - and theatre and license and carnival generally, partly i suspect bcz (in the uk) - these were catholic-sanctioned social mechanisms for letting off steam, seemingly anti-authority but actually ultimately buttressing rather than challenging it (you approve of the boss who allows you holidays etc)

anti-private nudity though? this seems impractical and unlikely except for the fairly well-off (being clothed in bed; having separate beds etc etc)

the puritans who founded america were pretty much social radicals (in both directions) (ie radically anti-worldly/church authority and pro God'sd authority) even by the standards of commonwealth puritans: and MUCH less pragmatic about carnality than the catholic church had become

i THINK i know what this means, but i like this phrase anyway, and strive to use it as often as i can today.

i'll use it to order lunch, too.

Adam is right, the Finnish sauna culture is probably one reason I have no problems whatsoever with nudity, and I don't think seeing friends of opposite sex naked has anything to do with sex.

good point; I'd say that gore/scary stuff gets the adrenalin going, makes you more suceptible to advertising messages?

Yes, you can! I have seen naked breasts on ER recently.

It's all in the context. For example, seeing a friend naked isn't be erotic, even if I think she's attractive. A nude scene in an non-erotic film doesn't do the trick, whereas in an erotic film a similar scene might be very titillating.

similar response in victorian england arises from sudden close contact with all kinds of routine nakedness among imperial conquered peoples?

AN ENGLISHMAN'S HOME IS HIS CASTLE = for some families it is perfectly unexceptionable to see one another w/nothing on, for others freaky beyond measure (non-communal privacy and seclusion is already pursued by victorians as a middleclass cultural norm in britain above and beyond in france, say - cf hyppolite tain's "note's on england", 1860s - but that's NON-naked seclusion and may be a response to earlier cheek-by-jowl urbanisation etc)

I'm reminded of William Blake and his wife vs. that one Ripping Yarns Michael Palin did where the wife knits full body coverings for her husband.

In America, yes.

What distinguishes when you see a friend naked and it's erotic and when you see a friend naked and it's not (assuming it's the same friend)?

I don't think seeing a friend is generally erotic, unless I happen to be attracted to that friend, which I rarely am.

I'm totally confused here. Skool me.

A "sauna" is where you go to look at other people naked and hopefully find at least one person willing to help you create an orgasm.

I hope that link turns out. I (being an weird American, I guess), find it kinda funny that they have a whole section in the official tourist website about ("?)saunas("?).

'You could have long since become the master of your existence, if only your thinking were in the direction of truth. You are cowardly in your thinking, Little Man, because real thinking is accompanied by bodily feelings, and you are afraid of your body.'

Wilhelm Reich, Listen Little Man

I remember hiking in the desert, and people could always spot the German tourists, because you'd see less than perfect bodies squeezed into Speedos and walking around that way as if it were nothing. That would be unacceptable in the US.

naked != maskless or unable to form and manipulate power structures

(well i've never been but i have a friend who grew being taken on holiday to a big one in france every year w.her whole fambly till she wz 17) (sehe is v.sardonic INDEED abt the degree of "liberation from repression" attained within them)

Why exactly?

If you're willing to fork out $350+ a night to stay at the Ventana Inn in Big Sur, California, you can bathe nude in mixed japanese hot baths or at one of the pools, looking at the great Pacific and the mountains at the same time. http://www.ventanainn.com/leisure.htm

But I'm sure that didn't happen without a lot of backing and forthing between the show's producers and the network's Standards and Practices department, bickering over whether or not to allow it. And it was probably a sweeps month ploy, used because so many Americans are antsy about nudity, for various reasons.

I rented a tape of Father Ted recently and was startled by a brief but matter-of-fact shot of bare breasts and words like "shite." I know that the BBC is a little looser on such things, compared to U.S. networks.

I'd be very uncomfortable because 1) I associate full-on nudity in the presence of others with sex or medical exams; and 2) I've bought into the concept that because my body isn't model-perfect it is therefore hideous.

(note: i have never actually been a woman)

Tiresias to thread!

It's more like "Tom" of Finland, since his real name was Touko.

FAP, anyone?

by my above comment i mean that, fucked-up as the circumstance may be, female nudity holds a kind of power over men. and the reverse, male nudity, ALSO holds a kind of power over men, because it cuts their power-of-looking-at out from underneath them, like the Wizard of Oz behind his curtain - "oh, all that noise and smoke for THAT little shrively thing?" somehow i don't imagine the group of buck-nekkid guys being all porno-style randy and confident

*feels rather small all of a sudden*

*rummages in pocket, pretends to look for "photo"*

(mine would probably approve, and she's my mum)

I'll bring a handful of dollar bills and some tassles if it would make you more comfortable.

Also, I may yell "wooo, take it off cowboy" if I have a beer or three first.

holy xpost

I will say, having done a bunch of Spencer Tunick's many-person nude mixed-gender photo shoots, that the atmosphere really isn't sexual, but it is pretty hilarious--there's a mass everyone-amusedly-checking-everyone-else-out vibe, but not in a creepy/unnerving way.

I want to keep myself covered up and want to see others covered up. I wear shirts and blouses that have as high a neckline as possible without making them into turtlenecks or shirts that choke the neck. The last time the top parts of my arms have seen daylight in public was when George Bush Sr. was president. This is how I choose to operate. Don't give me any shit about it, understood?

You've not seen a week on Jerry Springer, apparently.

Going into a sauna during a party??? I don't get it.

Sean, the sauna is the party. At least, there isn't any messy cleanup, afterward....

Okay, apologies. It's just that I'm feeling a bit touchy today and it seemed as though this thread was being totally disparaging to those of us who have more conservative mindsets in this aspect of life. Lord knows how unsurprising this will be, but I generally live a very conservative sort of life overall. But I don't attribute it to being American -- it's because of how I was raised, and I know my parents were/are never gung-ho "I'm proud to be American" types.

But:

I wouldn't even want to show someone I thought was The One my nude self because I think my body looks disgusting

No it's not. I mean, unless there some gaping sores problem I'm not aware of, your nude self looks like what a nude body looks like. (Not that I've seen it, of course, but I've seen pictures of you and I have seen women of your general build naked before.) It probably doesn't look all that different than most people's nude bodies. What's so disgusting about it? Or, more to the point, why are you so turned off by what normal people look like nude?

I mean, if you want to argue that it isn't a "hot bod" then that's one thing (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who would appreciate your body more than some anorexic bony covergirl's) but I can't see how you'd argue that it's "disgusting".

(My tiny two cents)

Lisa & I have twice done a photo project where we've taken regular & Polaroid photos of people (about 300 people total so far), all of them wearing a fish mask to cover their face & nothing else; then we write one specific, honest compliment about each person's body on their Polaroid, and give it to them... we did it at a big party a couple of months ago, and it was a MAJOR hit.

This is OTM. My guess is that Americans wouldn't have nearly as many body hang-ups, nor would they idealize certain body types, if they were simply exposed (haha) to more "normal" bodies.

Douglas, that photo project sounds like fun.

And I'm equating these words and feelings with the statement that my body is disgusting and why I won't display it to anyone. I like my fellow human beings and don't wish to have negative experiences foisted upon them. :)

I suppose the whole conservative/liberal schism happens when I limit the range of people whom I'd show my total outer self to (to people whom I'd be involved in long-term relationships with) and when I think about what I'd wear should I move out of the plus-size department and into the regular sizes (a lot of jeans and t-shirts outfits and conservative dresses).

Nichole, you are also being far too kind here. If indeed this is part of the thing that is bigger than I am, I would need to talk this over with someone professional in order for me to find a way out of this way of thinking.

I would say that everyone has at least one positive attribute.

But bodies are lumpy. That's what they do. I mean, it's OK to want to reduce the lumpiness, but it'll never be totally gone, and it's ok!

Also, check this out: http://homepage.mac.com/gapodaca/digital/digital.html

Anyway, Tuomas seems to have fled the thread.

And the general reaction we get when people see the pictures is "wow, you're right, they actually are all beautiful if you give them permission to be!"

(n.b. if there are regulars here who would like to see the URL where we've got a bunch of them, email me privately--I just don't want it posted/circulated in public.)

Don't know about that. I've never seen any of my male friends naked, but every girl I've ever known has seen every female friend of hers naked.

Call me a modest American, but I don't ever want to see my dad's cock. It has nothing to do with religion or morality or whatever. It has everything to do with the fact that it's my DAD for chrissakes.

But why do you feel this way? Such an attitude doesn't come from nowhere.

We don't know why, but we think nudity is always about sex (speaking of the population in general).

Because in America that's the only time people ARE nude, in everyday life and in TV/movies. The two are so closely associated because there is no other situation where two people are nude around one another than during sex.

And another thing...my body ain't lumpy!

Oh, give it time.

Good link, Chris.

Casuistry seems to be OTM a lot on this thread. Which, btw, I fail to see how it is work un-safe.

Did someone linkify the Tom of Finland picture? That's the only non-worksafe thing (so far, eep).

yeah, and a lot of people have terrible eyesight too... where's the national crisis over that?

i'll shut up now.

Also, glasses = sexxy. No, make that sexxxy.

< /apu>

Douglas, I read "compliment" as "complaint" and I was thinking, "Douglas is a jerk and his friends are masochists." Heh heh, whoopsie.

Fun, with burning eyes and nowhere to hang your glasses?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30524-2003Oct28.html

Countersunk screws.

And Dee, I've seen photos of you. I wish you didn't have such a low self-image - it really is not warranted at all.

Yeah totally. I just don't want to make the situation awkward. It gets tricky when I don't want to see someone ELSE naked because I don't want to feel awkward for them feeling awkward about me seeing them naked.

http://www.cenedella.com/images/album4.gif

http://www.cenedella.com/images/album7.gif

http://www.cenedella.com/images/album5.gif

In all seriousness, surely the Brit/Yank parallel can be drawn from the fact that this thread has hundreds of replies already whereas my Naturism - classic or dud? thread got about thirty, and they were almost entirely Brits posting in an 'ooer matron' manner.

(massive xpost)

I would one to offend anyone with my flabby naked form but I'd question their offense.

I miss the early nineties Euro-hip hop fashion, you know, über-wide trousers and big sweatshirts with weird pictures or patterns in 'em. And the assortment of colours! Orange, light green, light blue, even pink! It's the only time in my life I've looked cool wearing a pair of orange jeans the size of a tent.
Compared to that, the US hip hop fashion always looked bland to me.

-- Tuomas (tuomas.alh...), June 27th, 2003.

X-post - Blount go outside and come back in when you've learnt how to behave.

Hey, that was my standard convenience-store-bought dinner when I was a sophomore in college!

There's a Mike Nelson essay you really need to read.

Don't make me tell my Budapest public baths story.

There he is that hairy hound from Budapest. Never have I ever seen a ruder pest.

Other advantage to finding oneself naked among a whole lot of other naked people for a relatively short period of time: you realize "oh, yes, there are actually a WHOLE LOT of body types out there, and they're basically all okay, and most are better than okay."

This was one of the best things said on this thread. I think because of all those unisex saunas Finns don't feel so ashamed of their bodies. Seeing people regularly reveals that nobody has a perfect body, and then again, everybody has beautiful body. Also, it helps to have a non-complicated attitude towards nudity, one where you don't automatically associate it with sex; but you can have erotic nudity as well, it's all in the context.

I'm not saying everybody should regularly get butt-naked against their will, but it'd probably help to lessen the negative feelings some people here feel towards their bodies. I was pretty sad to read Dee's comment about her body being disgusting; it isn't, Dee, since no body is. That's just the effect the current Western beauty standards have on people, and I think seeing "regular" naked bodies might just be a good counter-medicine against that effect, even if it isn't the whole solution. Ultimately, however, we need to get rid of such standards, because their quite damaging both mentally and physically.

One of our hosts, after she'd had a few drinks, told me that when there weren't Americans present, everyone usually saunaed together at parties, and that "Finns like to pretend that it's totally non-sexual." Then she started giggling.

Of course you can say that nothing's non-sexual, but I can assure you sauna isn't any more sexual than any other ordinary situation where you spend time with the members of the opposite sex (or the same sex, if you're gay). For starters, as I've understood it's quite hard even to get hard-on in sauna (the Finnish sauna is quite hot, from 70 to 90 degrees Celsius); that Tom of Finland picture isn't in any way realistic. Also, because saunaing is such a commonplace thing in Finland, and people do it from childhood to old age, it surely hasn't any more sexual aura for Finns than any other commonday activity. I'm sure a foreigner unaccustomed to unisex saunas could find the experience erotic, but were he to stay longer in Finland, the effect would soon wear off.

Going into a sauna during a party??? I don't get it.

You'll have to understand that sauna is a big, big part of Finnish life; many apartments and most single-family houses have their own sauna, and people go there on weekly bases, with family or with friends. So if you're having a party in a place where there's sauna, it's quite common for someone to warm it up and for people to go there at some point during the evening. It's also quite common to have "sauna evenings" where people gather up especially for the reason of saunaing, socializing with friends and drinking some beer (there is even a Finnish phrase "sauna beer", which refers to the beer you drink after you come out of the sauna).

I miss the early nineties Euro-hip hop fashion, you know, über-wide trousers and big sweatshirts with weird pictures or patterns in 'em. And the assortment of colours! Orange, light green, light blue, even pink! It's the only time in my life I've looked cool wearing a pair of orange jeans the size of a tent.
Compared to that, the US hip hop fashion always looked bland to me.

Come on, that wasn't just a Finnish thing. Even East 17 wore those tent-size trousers back then...

Ummmmm., obv. teasing about the tent trousers....kind of..... :-)

I still don't buy this notion of seeing other people naked makes you feel better about yourself. It implies that people don't know what other people actually look like naked, when of course, they know all too well. Every body and everybody is beautiful. No they're not. Some people need to get up off the couch and ride a bike or take a walk and stop eating so much frozen lasagne. It's possible to look better and if you try, you'll oddly feel better about yourself. [okay, okay, okay, up to a point....]

Current western beauty standards...there have always been "current" western beauty standards, people have always been self conscious if they looked different, say dark complected in the middle ages when fair skin ruled, too thin, too fat, whatever. Humans have standards, that's what makes us humans. Right now, it's thin, but you can't blame the media for everything. People know what looks good.

Your question is still interesting, but it has much more to do with Americans (and I think english too) equating nudity with sex on a basic level. Even in europe at nude or mixed beaches, it's usually the older people who are totally nude. Young people tend not to be nude as much.

But I will still say, that although every body has its flaws, it's not ridiculous slaving to the media culture to try to look as "good" as you can, within reason. Obviously, if you're in the gym changing room seeing these other naked people, Emma, you feel that way too. There are also a lot of health advantages, etc. Europeans still aren't as fat as Americans. Americans are simply enormous, statistically, many morbidly obese. Learning to love your extra 75-100 lbs. or more isn't a good solution.

people have always been self conscious if they looked different, say dark complected in the middle ages when fair skin ruled, too thin, too fat, whatever

This is starting to remind me of that Curiosity Killed The Cat song, "Misfit", you know -- "Too fat, too thin, you lose or you win/This may come as some surprise/Too tall, too short, too loose or too taut/There'll be a bind for every kind". Great, catchy pop song. Just not feeling it at the moment.

*laughs* I won't get into the issues I've been dealing with over my skin color in this thread, btw. I think that's another thread altogether. :)

Everbody and everybody is beautiful. No they're not. Some people need to get up off the couch and ride a bike or take a walk and stop eating so much frozen lasagne. It's possible to look better and if you try, you'll oddly feel better about yourself. [okay, okay, okay, up to a point....]

As much I agree with you about (severe) obesity being unhealthy, I disagree with beauty and healthiness/slimness being the same thing. You can say to an obese person that he should lose some weight to avoid cardiovascular diseases, osteoarthritis etc., but it is a different thing to say that he should lose weight because he's not beautiful. Health and aesthetics are not the same. Of course you could argue that the guilt of not corresponding to the beauty standards will cause the person to lose weight, but because today's standards are so absurdly strict, I don't think it's the best way to deal wíth obesity. Mild obesity is not even a particularly big health risk (in fact according to some studies it may even benefit health, especially with women), but we've been lead to believe it's not beautiful, which is wrong. I'd rather live in a world where it's okay to be chubby than in a world where everyone wants to be slim because it's "beautiful".

(I sometimes feel like a hypocrite saying these things, when I myself am a 65-kilo weakling, but at least I'm not slim because of a concious choice, or because I'd feel uncomfortable if I were heavier. It's just hard for me to gain weight.)

that said, it's true that in France, for instance, we have nudity here, there and everywhere... and somehow, we're not blasés !

xpost

we should start a newsgroup...
alt.fan.thewayne

and we should add a photoshoped Wayne into every thread... a godlike presence...

xpost: either that or kenC's mspaint wayne. in a sense, wayne IS every ilxor.

it's our molten calf !

As for my obnoxiousness on this thread, I mean that back in the day I tended to emphasize a bit too much both my and my country's presumed liberality in contrast to, say, the US. The difference noticeable are interesting, but I don't want to give the picture that everything's so much better in here.

i think one of the best things you'd ever posted was some statement about how you lived in a commune with a bunch of liberated women, but then a couple posts later something like "but that's what we here in finland just call a shared apartment". that was awesome.

Hmm, what's so awesome about that? If I remember correctly several other ILXors live or have lived in a shared flat with members of the other gender.

again, im not sure what obnoxiousness you're reffering to.

you're not real.

-- AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 14:07 (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

I though that joke had gone passe ages ago.

/firends naked

I keep reading this as fire ends, like an ass on fire.

This is still the thing that is most strange to me about American family life. I've lived here for 9 years, do all the ritual holidays, enjoy the food, mostly, can live, laugh, and drive like am American. Then you get to the fact that many Americans have never, when living at home, seen their adult family members naked. WTF? Family vacations in swimsuits are fine, but you wear clothes into the bathroom and a towel out every time? There's an *ew* (as if you're judging it's aesthetic or sexual appeal) if you see a family member's penis or boob? Are you really judging its aesthetic or sexual appeal? Cos if so, oddest.

oddesty blaise

I've seen all my siblings naked (shared baths when we were kids, etc.)

Why do you want to see your relatives naked?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100707030600AAjqcly

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/san-francisco-nudity-restrictions-provoke-the-nakedly-ambitious.html?_r=1

Some of the nudists at the rally seemed to already be adhering to the sought-after decorum by sitting on newspapers. In fact, The San Francisco Bay Guardian, one of the city’s weeklies, explicitly advertised its usefulness for just that purpose, printing a special clip-out page in last week’s issue. The page pointed out that newsprint was a 100 percent recyclable seat guard, and in bold type it said: “If you go bare, put ’er there.”

I don't want it burned into my memory. But it's not a big deal if it happens accidentally. Siblings of the opposite sex, though - that's weird and gross.

Do you ever think about what if your workplace got robbed, and the bad guys made all the employees take off all their clothes for some plot reason?

europeans shocked and bewildered abt americans 'attitudes toward nudity and/or sex' is one of the phenomena reliably highest in poorly disguised self regard

one might ask 'why are europeans so weird abt americans being so weird abt nudity'

what is the deal with airplane food

Unfortunately the nudity on display here is usually performed by the people you'd least want to see nude. Also, mostly tourists/suburbanites.

Re: robbers making people take their clothes off. Thankfully that sounds like some crazy shit from the seventies. Those sick fucks would have to have their eyeballs ripped out. That's all I have to say. I don't take losing well.

its like ive had a number of germans for whatever reason over the years lecture me abt americans being sexually repressed and im all yeah well every country has their version of that i guess *rolls eyes*

like for instance in Europe they have violent Islamophobia

Younger Americans are not conservative enough - skirts too high, pants too low! Kids go to school with their butt cheeks and underwear hanging out! In front of the elderly!

mount wieners

― ☂ (max)

It would be my guess that the taboo against seeing family members naked in the USA (and Canada?) is probably connected withe the incest taboo - not that the two acts have any real similarity or remotely similar consequences - but that sexuality, and nakedness beyond the age of (roughly) toddlers are inextricably bound together in the US psyche.

is there not an incest taboo in europe?

i mean i know in central europe like 45% of fathers keep their daughters locked up as sex slaves for 33 years but

Taboos manifest themselves differently in different societies. The prudishness of Americans has always far exceeded the general norms in Europe.

Never discount the impact of bullying, kids can be so mean and they condition each other to disrespect your parents. You know, yer mama is fat and ugly and all of that.

what is the deal with airplane food

― yung huma (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 27 September 2011 07:14 (2 hours ago) Bookmark

lol

A+ thread from top to bottom (see what I did dere)