The Bush in Britain Thread [WORK SAFE AGAIN NOW, PHEW]

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George Bush arrives in London today. Although people are generally in favour of the visit, and people aren't anti american per say, (see today's gaurdian) People are very very cynical about it. 63% think that 'America is genreally a force for good' whilst 49% are in favour of George Bush's state visit, with 39% against. It's going to cost £5,000,000, one of Bush's biggest campaign contributions so far.

A significant number of people are angry enough to make a fuss. We are a Liberal (19thC/Thatcherite) Democratic (In our own weird way) Country with Social Democratic leanings (we aren't France or Sweden) and George Bush quite Frankly sticks in the craw.

Also coming to london are the leaders of the 33 poorest nations holding a conference on the Millennium targets on poverty, now likely to be missed because fighting poverty is now tied to fighting terrorism. In Peru, for example, poverty programmes have been replaced with Coca growing reduction programmes. Poverty fuels anger and that anger gets directed back at the Rich and we are the rich. I'm not saying that Osama Bin Laden or his backers are poor, they are not, but the foot soldiers of Al'Quaeda are.

Britain has been led into an illegal war, a war founded on false pretenses. I'll agree that Iraqis are freer, no doubt, but they are also far less secure, Iraqis are dying daily because of aftermath of this war. British and American troops are dying almost daily. Of course we shouldn't withdraw from Iraq or Afghanistan (which the US has already done, in the main). We should clean up after ourselves in the world, but the mess goes back far further than the last couple of Wars.

Even if you were pro war there are good reasons to come out against Bush:

'sticking two fingers up to the Kyoto agreement and ploughing
his way through virgin Alaskan wastelands to find more of his
beloved black gold

withdrawing millions of free condoms and millions of US$ from
family planning ngos across the developing world who are
fighting to contain the spread of HIV/AIDS - unless they
promise not to mention the word abortion in any of their work

being the most prolific state executioner of all time

pretending to be the president although he was never actually
elected' (Copied from a friends email)

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/
http://expatsagainstbush.typepad.com/

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

It's going to cost £5,000,000, one of Bush's biggest campaign contributions so far.

Who is paying for it? Not us, I hope. They better present the bill for the extra policing TO BUSH, like they did to that twat in the box or I'm going to be very cross.

I wasn't going to go protest, but the more I read about it, and the more I find out about the demands that the secret service have been making, the angrier I get.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 09:24 (twenty-one years ago)

at least £5,000,000 it's coming straight out of the Met's already stretched budget, they are trying to get money from central government for it, either way, it's coming out of our taxes.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 09:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Make Bush pay for it. That's just completely outrageous.

And Blair is all "No, we have to have him here to work out the EU steel thing before we have a trade war!" and crap like that. I'm more in favour of boycotting products from Florida.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 09:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Steven Byers is busy working out the punitive tariffs right now, not just because of steel but the against the punitive tariff put in place by the US to force us to take GM products, among other things.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

bah

National Lampoon English Vacation aka Dubya Takes A Trip

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Whoops, sorry.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Best result would be 'Tiananmen Square'-type situ >>>>> US/UK war!!! C'mon Brits you know you want one!!! And no prizes for who the rest of the world would support! Then again, the UK acquitted itself pretty disgracefully over the last three centuries...hmm well at least it's a perfect opportunity for the two worst exploiters/exporters of misery in world history to destroy themselves and each other!

― dave al-q, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:18 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm with dave on this. the anti-war march on the 15 feb was incredibly dull, AND you had to put up with shitwits like galloway. may 1st demos are also full of tedious new statesman subscribers. let's take bush hostage and play it by ear.

i think ussr/germany might rival us though dave on the misery front.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:22 (twenty-one years ago)

but Britain spread it wider than anyone has.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Enrique is my new hero.

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:24 (twenty-one years ago)

yes but also they all got cricket for free ed

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Can we grab the queen while we're at it.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Oi! Hands off the Queen. Unless she pays privately to have that fuXor at her house.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:26 (twenty-one years ago)

How good were we at the misery export game, really? We never managed to sell it to the Poles, or any other ice-cubes to Greenland type scenario, did we?

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:27 (twenty-one years ago)

top five misery exporters

germany
uk
belgium
ussr
us

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Grrr. Those Belgians are bastards.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah especially their beer! CUrse them!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 11:21 (twenty-one years ago)

not sure if i was making an ironic anti-express reader anti-euro joke OR whether i was talking congo style.

or both, most likely.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 11:23 (twenty-one years ago)

who are the top 5 joy exporters?

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 11:38 (twenty-one years ago)

thailand have to be up there, along with Colombia

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

i thought you had to go TO thailand to be a sex tourist chris?

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

no necessarily Zoltan the invincible - you can mail order Thai brides now, erm, apparently

― chris (chris), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 11:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I am getting progressively angrier.

The last president to come on a state visit was Woodrow Willson, the first Internationalist US president, coming to Europe to try and ensure that the US didn't get embroiled in a conflict as dreadful as as the First World War ever again. Of course the US was blocked by congress from taking part in any of the International Structures that he created. Compare if you will Willson to Bush.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

trying to make sure that US didn't get involved in war/beginning gradual takeover of uk/french colonial system?

that dimwit johann hari can't write a par without bringing up wilson, laregely because like anyone who studied history to 15 he knows what the 14 points are. they were pie in the sky bullshit mixed in with a mehcanism that would keep the US, UK, fr, etc top nations while everyone else cd fuck off or remain as colonies. bush is worse, of course.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 13:16 (twenty-one years ago)

This attention-seeking man who happens to be called Bush has obviously chosen this moment to visit London as a spoiler for the Strange Fruit Festival at Bush Hall. I'm very annoyed that he's going to make the traffic worse, and possibly draw away some of the press coverage from our Bush event, which is the real Bush event in London this week as far as I'm concerned. I will be ignoring the little upstart, if Ed and Suzy let me.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

(kudos tho if he actually manages to make the traffic worse, rather than merely equal)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

What's worse? Strange Fruit or George Bush? I'm having a really hard time with that one. If you start promoting SF on this board, I am warning you, Momus. I've been very quiet and very good at not having outbursts, but I *will* blow my top if you start on this.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:04 (twenty-one years ago)

what the fuck is strange fruit? record label?

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, it's bad enough knowing that his presence makes my incoming plane tomorrow anything between 1% and 50% more likely to be used as a missile and slammed into the House of Commons. Fucking little twerp!

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

eva cassidy-esque posthumous acclaim for one time ilxor -- evening standard

worth it, brah.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick, you make it sound like you want us to drag you by the arms and legs to the march.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Another thing to get annoyed about

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:10 (twenty-one years ago)

He doesn't deserve the publicity. He will be gone in under a year. in fact, I've forgotten his name already. Jim? Bob? Jack?

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Just go to the March, Nick. You've already been paid, regardless. (At least I hope you have, or at least you got it in writing.)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:11 (twenty-one years ago)

why are you so sure he'll be gone? what bright spark are the pro-war dems gonna put up?

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:12 (twenty-one years ago)

He'll be gone because the American people are not complete idiots.

I've got important things to do. I'm not in Britain often. I'll be spending my valuable time getting an NHS pedicure, finding a book of Artaud's essays, seeing my family, and doing an interview with a Swedish radio station. No time left for the junta runt, his red rug and his goonsquad.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Come to St. Mary's, Paddington, Nick. It's in West London, so it's close, and I'll get you a Japanese translator, as well. ;-)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, in that case...

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

He'll be gone because the American people are not complete idiots.

well, that's all fair enough, the other stuff, and i don't think having a load of pinkoes throwing eggs on cnn will make any odds -- but i'm todally not convinced by your reasoning. two statements:

i don't think americans are complete idiots

most americans supported bush in his war, and believed that iraq was behind 9/11

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm going with this group: http://expatsagainstbush.typepad.com/

the tag line is 'proud of my country, shamed by my president', which works for me.

― colette (a2lette), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:24 (twenty-one years ago)

From the thread title, I was expecting this to be about the girls of S Club 7 and Sugababes. Sorry, sorry.

― Dancing Queen, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow!

1) Ex Pats Against Bush? Excellent!

2) DUDE! I didn't realise that the protest was going straight past my house. That makes it very convenient. I *have* to take the day off work now, as my road will be closed, so I can't go in!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I just want to hold up a placard that says JENNIFER FITZGERALD (name of bushone's mistress who was in situ in 1600 in '92 according to presidential intern pal). Ed's will say COME TO DADDY.

Collette BTW I might march with the expats too.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Well... I'm very tempted to march with the Ex-Pats (though I'm not sure if I technically count) as it's awful whenever you get accused of all sorts of awful political collusion by self righteous twats simply due to your accent. So at least there will enough people around with a similar accent that it will get the point across *why* we're there.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I just want to hold up a placard that says JENNIFER FITZGERALD

I must say it would be absolutely typical Suzy to hold up a banner that nobody else understood and that dropped an obscure name. Great communicator, you see.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

It's not obscure if it's the name of the floozy shtupping your dad, and it wipes the smile off your face when you see it go by in the news broadcast and you can't tell anyone why it has is effect. Obscure can be effective - and I'm fed up with Millie Tant slogans anyway.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Just do BUSH OFF!

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

TV viewers don't have Google.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't get my info from Google, I got it from a very observant and impeccable source who was working in the White House at the time.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, seeing as how Junior wasn't actually LIVING AT HOME at the time, perhaps he didn't know about the mistress either!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't get my info from Google, I got it from a very observant and impeccable source who was working in the White House at the time.

Well, let's hope your source is watching when they show you on CNN, he'll have a private chuckle at your private joke. Meanwhile, for the rest of the world, what a lost opportunity!

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I think they all know exactly what other family members are up to, that way no 'surprises'. Same source also says the Bush twin at Yale was going to be flunked in Spanish for not going to class until the administration of the college intervened. Miracle! She got a B!

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Hrmmm. Wish I could wear my "Impeach Bush" shirt from our tour last summer, but alas, the durn thing no longer fits (curse boyfriend and dayjob and Starbucks for weightgain). :-(

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 15:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Suzy: that's the banner, then: YALE TWIN B! (And, in small letters underneath, 'Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about, couch potato!')

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 15:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Is nobody going on the demos just slightly worried that Bush has negotiated diplomatic immunity for his entourage, so that if they shoot members of the British public by accident, they can't be sued or tried in Britain? Or that there will be more British police snipers, with loaded weapons, all over rooftops than have ever been assembled in one place at one time?

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Immunity has not been granted.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually the Met denied Bush's yobs diplomatic immunity.

Police will be all over my neighbourhood anyway with their buzzing and their helicopters and shit - even moreso than usual - cause the march goes BY MY FRONT DOOR so it doesn't matter anyway.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

But it shows what's on their minds. The Times of India reports:

'The issue of immunity is one of a series of extraordinary US demands turned down by ministers and Downing Street during preparations for the Bush visit. These included the closure of the tube network, the use of US Air Force planes and helicopters and the shipping in of battlefield weaponry to use against rioters. Security was tightened across Britain on Saturday as police and intelligence services learnt that al-Qaeda terrorists were "on the move" and could be preparing for a spectacular terrorist attack to coincide with the state visit by Bush.'

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Did you not notice the whole other thread on this topic?

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Now now, Momus is opening our eyes to the sort of story that would never be printed here. Certainly not word-for-word in the Observer.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:12 (twenty-one years ago)

sure, but in the obs you have to put up with quislings like rawnsley and aaronovitch publically fellating donald rumsfeld, so for me that was a useful link cos i've given up on the uk press.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Plus they can print what Charles did with his manservant, with illustrations from the kama sutra.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's their graphic:

naughty link!

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

you're pure class, momus.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

The Bush in Britain Thread: NO LONGER SAFE FROM SNIPERS (or snoopers at your place of work)

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

in re: newsworthiness and truthvalue, charles-did-manservant story = bush-sharpshooters-plan-to-kill-all-protesters story

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:21 (twenty-one years ago)

NO LONGER SAFE FROM SNIPERS IN MOMUS'S HEAD

in the actual real world, safe from snipers

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

see, i don't know what mark's feeling here. obviously no-one thinks they're going to kill ALL protesters.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

The more of us there are, the less chances they can actually kill us all, so the safer we all are!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey, isn't that Amadou Diallo standing next to you, Kate? Oh silly me, he's dead. No, it's just someone reaching for his wallet. No worries...

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Amadou Diallo

And, in small letters underneath, 'Google it if you don't know what I'm talking about, couch potato!'

or am i just being thik?

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

You're not a Springsteen fan, then, I take it, enrique?

41 shots. That's what he got. He was only reaching for his wallet.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:29 (twenty-one years ago)

springsteen? you gotta be fucking kidding.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't figure you for one. But possibly a Giuiliani enemy.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Look. Any persons wishing to join the "Ex Pats" division are welcome to stop by my house first for coffee. Email me offboard for details.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

any expats surely?

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Any persons. Because I'm sure that HSA and Ed, despite not being Ex Pats, will probably choose to march with their missuses, them being all whipped and stuff.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I've been badgering suzy to march with the expats so we will be at the front.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Ooh, yes to the pre marching, coffee/warmth invite BTW.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Can anyone link to the official route of the march?

Erm, not that I'll be going, being terrified of death by snipers and all that.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know that its been published yet, it was only agreed yesterday.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Apologies, it is here.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Kewl! I'm a bit scared about being at the front, as the snipers will shoot us first, but seeing as how we have, like, American rights and all, if we DID get shot, there'd be a hell of a lot more hoo-hah which would interfere with Bush's reelection photo ops!

(However, seeing as how I've only got a green card and not a US passport, I'll probably be dragged off to Guantanamo Bay for the rest of my life just for being an illegal non-citizen in a citizen's area or something...)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Uuuuh... the picture doesn't match up with the instructions: Route: Malet St - Russell Square - Southampton Row - Kingsway while the picture shows them going down Bedford Thingey and then along Holborn.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:44 (twenty-one years ago)

goddamn hippies

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:44 (twenty-one years ago)

The Southampton Row thing makes more sense, because it seems stupid to detour the march around the Victoria Building. Would be better just to go straight down!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Did anyone see the recent Panorama with footage of the UN convoy hit by an American missile? Blood all over the camera, half the convoy dead, the other half dying. 'American own goal!' says the producer, on his cellphone to Bagdhad moments after the carnage. 'The pilots were told there was an Iraqi convoy at a crossroads, but they got the wrong crossroads.'

Was there a huge price to pay? Has it damaged Bush's re-election chances? Have the pilots even been reprimanded?

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Panorama: In the line of fire

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Has it damaged Bush's re-election chances?

i wd think not. the un is an eeevil pinko obstructionist cabal ('black haek down' says so) and they were dumb enough to get in the way. it isn't the pilots' fault anyway.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

i see that "see what's in their heads!" has now mutated to "in any innocent situation the police may kill you!"

ie no longer remotely a specific indictment of bush, just a generalised worry that the police are the problem not the solution

the purpose of the deliberate leak of this story - the leak of the original overripe demand plus the leak of the refusal of the demand is twofold:
i. to scare idiots away from marching who actually think that american secret-servicemen will be taking potshots willynilly, just bcz they can
ii. to give the impression that "wiser heads have prevailed" - in other words, that the british state is not as bad as painted and actually generally quite sensible (this move is archetypal blair-type spin)

i'm afraid i find the idea that anyone planning this visit is sitting back thinking "plus it won't matter if a few lefties get shot who gives a fuck anyway" to be just fatuous: kent state = only four students 33 years ago, but it's still iconic of the FAILURE of nixon's project. THE LAST THING THE PRO-WAR PPL WANT IS DEAD PROTESTERS IN WHITEHALL - i trust that political instinct to keep my homiez safe (annoyingly enuff i can't be on it as i ~~am scared of being braned by rocks thrown by the swp~~ am trapped on an exceptionally tiresome work deadline)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

the worst the swp will do is aggressively try and sell you a paper

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

mark's right obv but one of the big PULL FACTORS is the chance of there being a ruck, and mark, you're spoiling it. if it were just anutha dull walk-about, why bother? add in chance of spectacular scenes of carnage and i'm well tempted to make the trek. leave the cool-headed analysis till later!

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:01 (twenty-one years ago)

"Was there a huge price to pay? Has it damaged Bush's re-election chances? Have the pilots even been reprimanded?"

Are these rhetorical questions, or just questions "expecting the answer no, obviously, cz only a dupe wd say yes"?

Ans to first = boilerplate fog-of-war hand-wringing
Ans to second = yes, read the papers, how much remains to be seen

The answer to the last by the way is clearly "No, they were given medals, bcz the invasion forces are now so out-of-control and politically demented that they don't care who dies on which side, and nor does anyone who supported this war"

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Relevant bit of Panorama transcript:

'Apparently an official investigation was underway. Seven months on it still is. After repeated requests the Americans eventually gave us a briefing on condition we didn't say where it came from. During it we were told that a member of the American special forces, seemingly under great stress, had requested an air-strike on the Iraqi tanks a mile away from us. He told the pilot he didn’t have time to give him a grid reference; though looking back we still can’t see why he was under such pressure. We were given details of the exchange between the plane and the man on the ground. The pilot says: "I see a road, I see an intersection, I see vehicles." The man on the ground says "Roger, that’s your target, you’re cleared to fire." But it was the wrong intersection; the vehicles were ours and those of the Kurdish and the American special forces we were with. One of them radios up shortly afterwards: “Ceasefire. Ceasefire" he says. "You’re hitting friendlies. We’ve taken casualties.” There may well have been recklessness on the part of some of those involved. But the real problem seemed to be the particular system of close air support the Americans were using. It meant they could drop a 1000 pound bomb on such inadequate information. No co-ordinates No grid references.'

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:09 (twenty-one years ago)

(By the way, depending on whether you think more or less people will read this thread if it's 'not work safe', you can make that kama sutra picture a link if you like. If the route of the march is on this thread alone, I don't want people at work unable to look at it.)

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:12 (twenty-one years ago)

we still can’t see why he was under such pressure
it's those crazy "go pills" the u.s. forces their pilots to take.
makes 'em all tweaked.

― dyson (dyson), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

re: panorama - in the line of fire
i saw john simpson being interviewed afterwards, he said that they had been told to make the roofs of their cars orange, as that was the agreed upon signal for a 'friendly' vehicle.
the only problem with this is that the pilots of the bombers have a black & white screen........

― zappi (joni), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

one of the main reasons soldiers come home from war angry w.those who sent them is that they have been made to kill people they DIDN'T consider the "real" enemy

if the pilots get officially punished, then that officially lets their superiors off the hook

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

TV viewers don't have Google.

Momus continues to be exhibit A in the "lefties are classists" prosecution

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:17 (twenty-one years ago)

john i think all he means there = google is not a feature on televisions

there is plenty of other better evidence of his right-leaning heart on this thread

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Let's keep the thread away from that quagmire.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:20 (twenty-one years ago)

ok point taken, hackles just rise when somebody does the the "eww, TV" nose-in-the-air pirouette

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Right-leaning heart

That's rich considering the Brecht thread where I was more or less playing the Internationale on a kazoo. I have to go out now, but would a moderator linkify the kama sutra pic please, I may not be able to march myself, but I don't want to stop anyone else making plans to.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:23 (twenty-one years ago)

close call there.

― enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:23 (twenty-one years ago)

the foul rag-and-bone quagmire of the right-leaning heart!

(ps i'm teasing - well sorta - b4 this derails the thread)

(i do think conspiracy theory is a rightwing plot to hobble the left)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I poop too much.

― Labia, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:25 (twenty-one years ago)

i do think conspiracy theory is a rightwing plot to hobble the left

And it works!

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

What more proof is needed of Bush's sniveling cowardice? Not that his pants-pissing Air Force 1 itinerary on Sept 11 wasn't enough demonstration.

― Benjamin (benjamin), Tuesday, 18 November 2003 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

The Daily Mirror missed its chance to assassinate Bush last night.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

i know -- what the fuck? what a waste.

― enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 09:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Could have got the queen as well.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 09:12 (twenty-one years ago)

HSA was in a high state of flat last night. Apparently he was reading that one of the American requests that The Met (or whoever) turned down was that Bush be allowed to bring a Black Hawk helicopter (like the police helicopters aren't loud enough) and a super-duper-gun that fires 17,000 rounds a SECOND. On the grounds that if there were any random shots fired from a demonstration, they could liquify 60,000 protesters in under a minute.

Christ, they didn't even fire on the mob during the Gordon Riots...

(What could the Daily Mail hvae done last night, I missed it!)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 09:14 (twenty-one years ago)

The mirror have had a courtier with forged references working at Buckingham Palace for 2 months.

Re: HSA's high state, shouldn't he have had this on sunday.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

high state of flat?

the mirroir say they had a guy working in the palace who laid out bananas for the prez 'just hours' b4 his arrival, which he could have poisoned/inserted up charles' asshole first.

― enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 09:16 (twenty-one years ago)

High state of Flap, sorry, not flat, and yes, he has been in this state of flap since Sunday evening. HSA has to work himself up to anger, he's very slow to get annoyed, but once he's annoyed it's like an unmovable mountain or something.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

He must have a huge stone flywheel of annoyance (kind of like a buddhist prayer wheel, but different).

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 09:20 (twenty-one years ago)

He lives with me, what do you think? ;-)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

kate, do you live near russell square? that's the meeting point for the expats group. luke (the guy in charge of the group) emailed me and said that it's going to be so crazy at malet st that they're meeting at the NE corner of russell square at 1. then about 1:45 they're joining the march as a big clump.

― colette (a2lette), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 11:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Yup, I live about halfway down the block of Southampton Row just South of Russell Square. I can probably see the meeting point from our building's front door!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Wednesday, 19 November 2003 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

In the street the demonstrators come and go

talking of Hardt, Negri and Foucault

― the pinefox, Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

also reading Deleuze

― the pinefox, Thursday, 20 November 2003 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Pf on top form.

― alext (alext), Thursday, 20 November 2003 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

except they're probably talking about football instead.

― alext (alext), Thursday, 20 November 2003 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

the march has been going past my window for nearly 2 hours now. wow.

― zebedee (zebedee), Thursday, 20 November 2003 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

if i'm in bethnal green (which i am) what would be the best way to get me somehwere near the march/trafalgar sq without being massively held up by, er, the march an' that?

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Thursday, 20 November 2003 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey you lot, if you don't do something dramatic, your voices will NEVER be heard over the Michael Jaxon circle jerk. Protest harder now plz!

― Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 20 November 2003 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Tube. Its a bit late to say now I guess.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 20 November 2003 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

hey, any webcam action of this, or has it all finished?

― Jeremy the Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 20 November 2003 21:14 (twenty-one years ago)

All of the traffic cams on transport for london's websote covering the route of the demo always, without fail, experience operational or technical difficulties for the duration of the march.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 20 November 2003 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

funny that.

― Jeremy the Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 20 November 2003 21:33 (twenty-one years ago)

it's the darndest thing.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 20 November 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Well attended demo though, they had to delay the start of it by nearly an hour whilst they drafted in more police to deal with the unexpectedly high numbers.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 20 November 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Good job. There was actually a five-second mention of the protests on the local evening news here. I am not being sarcastic when I say that, it is remarkable that they were even mentioned. ABC News' Nightline is running a long piece on the Iraq war and had a very fair report on today's protests in London, going so far as to interview regular people, contrast a report just post-9/11 from Britain against the current situation (pix of toppling Bush statue in Trafalgar Square) and not present the protestors as far-left crazies.

― daria g (daria g), Friday, 21 November 2003 05:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, it was nice to read the piece on the Guardian website this morning, quite different from the reporting on the C4 news last night. The news was all "well, the mood has been dampened by the attacks in Turkey which seem to vindicate Bush" say whaaat?!?!?!? The news also managed to find the ONLY SINGLE NUTTER BUSH SUPPORTER on the whole route. Who just happened to be American. Gee, thanks. Did you not notice the DOZENS of "Shamed by my president" protesters in the march? As I was leaving Traf Square a middle aged woman approached me, pointed at my sign and said "I just want to shake your hand". There was a lot better turnout than the "few thousands" represented by the television.

I got home to panicked messages from my mother, who had somehow misheard the attacks on the British Embassy in Turkey as being a bomb in Britain. (???) Out of the blue got an email from my mother (not known to flights of conspiracy) who said she wouldn't be surprised if the CIA had a hand in the Turkey bombings, trying to hype Bush in the UK. (???)

(Sorry, just had a long conversation with a colleague about this...)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 21 November 2003 09:17 (twenty-one years ago)

CIA had a hand in the Turkey bombings, trying to hype Bush in the UK. (???)

film choice this weekend: fassbinder's 'the third generation'. arms manufacturer funds terrorists so the state will buy even more from him; terrorists wage campaign against repressive state.

― enrique (Enrique), Friday, 21 November 2003 09:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Bushists et al. keep going on about how the Turkey bombings are proof that Al Quaida (can't even spell it) are alive and working and we must bomb bomb bomb and invade invade invade to stamp them out. I see bombings as proof that "War On Terrorism" IS NOT WORKING and in fact is giving them "justification" and making the bombings worse.

Statements of the obvious, part 3000...

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 21 November 2003 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

this is one for derrida, or mark s, but what does 'al-quaeda' mean? it doesn't have the same order of meaning as 'SMERSH' for example.

― enrique (Enrique), Friday, 21 November 2003 09:29 (twenty-one years ago)

"Get Rid Of Slimy girlS"

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Today he get a pub lunch oop north.

― Ed (dali), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I hope the pub manager spat in his food.

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I hope the pub manager puts what ever the Japanese put in Bush daddy's food, just a bigger dose this time.

― Ed (dali), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Bowls of pretzels?

(The peace symbol pretzel was the best banner of the march!)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Nigella gave him brocolli.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:33 (twenty-one years ago)

radio one is fascist.
all their quotes were from passers by who said things like 'war's over innit -- what they complaining about? students gertcha'.

but if the war's over, why are we still bombing, dicknose?

― enrique (Enrique), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

she gives us all brocolli

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Nigella is evil. Up Gr1gs0n!!!

(Even Suzy had to concede that Gr1gs0ns are nice yesterday.)

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I never said they weren't. One (not present yesterday) wears the world's most vile 'comedy' earrings but they are enough to drive me into telly rage when I see them. And Kate, you AGREED about the earrings.

― suzy (suzy), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:44 (twenty-one years ago)

But she's really nice! Despite the earrings!

― Citizen Kate (kate), Friday, 21 November 2003 10:47 (twenty-one years ago)

pub lunch oop north = about 300 yards from my mother's house...

things that have riled my mother beyond belief:
closing the entire route between tony's house and the pub (c. 5 MILES!)
stopping ppl parking outside their houses in the middle of the village
her physio session at the local community hospital being cancelled because of the visit
the local school having to cancel their christmas fair
SECURITY MEN GOING INTO PEOPLES' HOUSES AND SEARCHING THROUGH THEIR CUPBOARDS FOR BOMBS

because my father was a district councillor when tony was starting out, mother usually gets a xmas card from the blairs. she said last night she was going to send it back with a snotty letter this year...

also the dun cow is rubbish...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Friday, 21 November 2003 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't believe he went up today. If he'd went yesterday he could have avoided those nasty protestors in London and went to the Thursday car boot sale at the race course.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 21 November 2003 15:13 (twenty-one years ago)

"Mr Prime Minister, my friends in the United Kingdom, I would like to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to locate this copy of the second pressing of the first Toy Dolls single..."

― Tim (Tim), Friday, 21 November 2003 15:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Locatitute surely.

― Pete (Pete), Friday, 21 November 2003 15:22 (twenty-one years ago)

SECURITY MEN GOING INTO PEOPLES' HOUSES AND SEARCHING THROUGH THEIR CUPBOARDS FOR BOMBS

Nice to see that Tony has so much faith in his own constituents that he is even entertaining the notion that any of them would blow up THEIR OWN HOUSE and those of all their neighbours just to get a pop and Georgy-boy, isn't it?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 21 November 2003 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

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