"Hey, Got a second for (insert name of cause/charity here)?": The Solicitation Gauntlet

Also, I find there can be far more annoying people/things on the streets of NYC to worry about than some dork in a yellow shirt with a clipboard that I can just walk around, usually.

xpost

yeah, how annoying is it to have to ignore someone?

Well, unless you actively don't notice them or fail to hear them when they speak out to you, you're making a conscious decision to ignore them (i.e. saying nothing, not even meeting their eyes). That in itself is an action.

if I'm getting hassled on the street, which is pretty rare, I'm sad to say it's usually been by someone homeless asking for money.

it puts you on the defensive. i just don't think it's right. i can ignore them easily enough but i find the practice a bit ethically suspect. and it's not like these are ambulance chasers -- this is a charity!

If I cared about the rainforest, I'd come to them. As for poor people... well they have an excuse. Although, there is NOTHING to make me feel less sorry for a Big Issue seller like the ones who act all insulted when I say "no thanks" rather than "sorry, haven't got any change". I mean... you ARE selling a PRODUCT here aren't you? This is a capitalist system? You're not BEGGING are you? No. Moron.

I do. But I'd rather use the attention I have to make sure I get where I'm going and I don't get mugged.

http://www.snapfastener.com/images/AG6309.jpg

On the odd occasion that I've still been accosted, I smile and say "Sorry, got to meet the others - we're raising money for (insert name of needier cause/charity here)".

I didn't know there were degrees of attention in that sense. When I go out, I avoid shady characters of all types (even ones with clipboards), dogshit on the pavement, etc., etc.

Zealot5 : Excuse me, we'd like you to have this flower ( Kramer
punches the man )
Zealot6 : Excuse me sir, would you . . . ( Kramer pushes him out
of the way )
Zealot7 : Donations for the Reverend Moon? ( Kramer punches him )
Zealot8 : Jews for Jesus? ( Crack ! ) Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
Zealot9 : Read about Jehovah's witness? ( Kramer kicks him )
Zealt10 : How about Buddhism? ( Whack! )
Zealt11 : Help Jerry's kids? ( punch! )
Zealt12 : Scientology?
Zealt13 : Avoid nuclear power? ( Bap ! Bop ! )

yeah, but Stence....are any of us suggesting otherwise? We're not talking about serious social ills, we're talking about a fucking nuisance. There's kinda a lot of real estate between those two scenarios.

then again, i have always had BIG issues with total strangers invading my personal space. though it's nice to know that i'm NOT the only one.

Typing is barely expending energy, Stence. When I'm GENUINELY upset or trying to impart something that is important to me, you'll be able to figure it out.

Seriously, to do so would be stooping to their level. To acknowledge them to that extent pays them too much of a compliment.

It is really remarkably easy to just say "No thank you" and walk on -- anyone with basic human interaction skills can do that. Canvassers are not going to mug you!

Getting new members through canvassing (going door-to-door or getting people on the street) is by and large the only way these progressive groups get new members, get money, and survive, so if you're against these groups canvassing, then you're against these groups existing and getting anything done. Canvassing is a difficult, poor-paying, sometimes scary, and incredibly important job.

i do wonder if this is an NYC thing -- people from other big cities (like chicago or LA), what do they have to say?

I can't imagine the guy kept his job very long.

Chris, it happened under an hour ago.

I dunno! Ask them if it concerns you so much!

yeah, leaflet dudes are far more ubiquitous.

That doesn't always work, by the way. They still try to get you to take it. Doesn't anything annoy you, Stence?

Or you could take hstencil's advice.

Or if you have to be insincere and sneaky to not come off like a jerk because that concerns you, say "I already talked to one of your peers, I signed the petition [or did the thing they were hoping you'd do]." and they just leave you alone.

(Me in hippie shocker disclaimer: In half the cases, I actually end up stopping and signing the petitions, because they do indeed support causes I support.)

I think people coming to your door where you live doing this type of stuff is 10 x worse.

Cops killing kids should OUTRAGE you, Stence, not merely annoy you. There's a difference.

The annoying thing is that Joe says he has sometimes stopped and tried to give them money (he can be a soft touch like that) but they refuse to take cash - they want you to sign up for a direct debit. I don't do direct debit for *anyone*.

My problem is that I want a guarantee of not being harassed in a public space. We have laws (in theory) for junk fax and telemarketing calls and I see no difference between junk telemarketing calls and being approached on the street by someone you have no desire to talk to. Of course, it's their constitutional right - I wish they would exercise their right politely. For example, there's a voter registration group that's been set up in front of the coffee bar across the street that's been polite, doesn't accost people and yet is highly visible so you can see what it is. Sadly they're one of the few exceptions - most of them are belligerent.

Not surprisingly the most annoying groups in LA are the movie focus group solicitors. "no, I don't want to see your piece of Hollywood shit half-finished movie! go away!"

"Yelling at people from cars C/D" to thread.

Tad, do you get freaked out when giving your credit card info to a cashier? "Here's my credit card info CHARGE ALL YOU WANT!"

The laws against junk fax and telephone calls have more to do, I thought, with the fact that they can cost you money (on fax toner and cell minutes) against your will.

So what. There's children there now.

but you live near Washington Square, which is another huge area of public activity. You want to not be bothered, move to a different neighborhood!

Are you suggesting that Washington Square and Time's Square are simillar. You're not a native New Yorker, are you.

(THAT is universal to all american cities, like duh.)

but i'm not a native new-yawker. boo.

I don't mind, busy streets, Stence, I mind needless invasions of personal space. There's a difference between being impeded by human cattle and being targeted by someone.

This is mainly an issue between the Vegas Tourist Council and the local strip club owners, no? I think blaming the guys handing out the fliers is a bit unfair.

I hope you snapped at them. Hahaha.

hey, I can totally see the appeal of Brooklyn in that capacity. But then, you have to get on the subway more often than I do, probably. And that can be a whole world of new annoyances.

I'll ask my uncle and aunt (who recently moved to Henderson) if they see a different picture, next time i talk to them.

Locals in Vegas don't really go to the strip that often.

That's ridiculous.

I'm completely numb to a lot of the things that would send the average non-citydweller up the wall, but the needless invasion of another's personal space isn't something I give any ground on. Moreover, just because an occurrence happens to be commonplace, that doesn't make it right.

The part about "unexpected enounters" was directed at him.

Alex, the beauty of it is, though, when you have your own estate in the 'burbs, you don't have to worry about people invading your personal space. Especially if it's in a gated community.

And, OK, for different people there are different reasons for living in NYC -- for a lot of people it's the easiest place to get into the country, for example -- but the ability to have so many unexpected encouters is what makes New York what it is, and is what has attracted people to it for many years. And it's one of the main reasons why people leave, or why people (such as yourself!) bitch about it. So.

Perhaps, Stence, the idyllic picture you paint isn't quite an option for all people. Moreover, as I've repeated a thousand times in this thread, these instances are merelly annoyances, not serious problems that would plague me to the point of thinking of living elsewhere.

But why presume that everyone else does too?

I don't because usually it's creepy guys wolf whistling at me or trying to pick me up.

Translation: "blaming the victim"

I stand by what I said here. And I think people are well within their rights to feel violated by an aggressive stranger -- it doesn't mean they need "help," and it doesn't mean they're antisocial either.

And that's what really offends me about it.

I say DEATH is the obvious answer! DIE DIE DIE!

;-)

Person 1: "Hi, do you have a moment for Greenpeace?"
Person 2: "ACK! I AM NOW A VICTIM!"

Oh, you're just being a dick, now. Incidentally, the organization in question that prompted this thread ARE called "Children International" (as I just politely tossed a "no, thank you" at them just now) so maybe they're not the altruistic gaggle of selfless palladins you're thinking of.

have you been reading this thread AT ALL?

Jody: Yes, I have, and that's exactly how you've been describing it.

Some people, for whatever reason, have issues with others violating certain boundaries and it really upsets them when they're in a certain headspace, walking by themselves, and some aggressive kid with a clipboard steps in their path.

anyway, JBR said this better than i did.

In much the same way I'm tired of having to wade through clipboard-weilding, white dreadlocked hackeysackers.

Let the world rot, you will have your walkman to hug you.

Once again, you fail to glean that this has nothing to do with the causes and everything to do with the tactics.

oh christ.

why don't you take some of your bleeding-heart liberalism and apply it to actual human feelings?

Eisbär totally OTM there.

but hey, to each their own and each of us are wired differently.

-- hstencil (hstenci...), January 28th, 2004.

Hstencil have you ever been annoyed by something that is less than a societal crisis? Does this take away from your ability to be concerned with larger issues?

(Thouhgh I have been known to cry "What's that?" and point, then run away whilst they're looking).

Have aggressive pit bulls of course.

xpost bwwahahahahahahahaha

I mean, I'm not saying you should be overjoyed by being asked if you have a minute for the St. John's Elementary Basketball Team or whoever is standing outside Tower this week, but "invasive"? A "violation"? This thread completely blew my mind.

Like I said, try not leaving your* house anymore.

* general you, not you specifically Tad, etc

I was going to post an eloquant refutation to this idea, but tom's pics of the crowded buses and subways speaks far more than i could even try.

But then Eisbar said:

of course, the folks in tokyo, seoul, hong kong, and beijing ALL LOVE overcrowding. yes, i bet those tokyo subway riders just LOVE getting shoved into the cars by those guys with the white gloves.

Then logic would dictate that if you do not like overcrowding, you should not live somewhere where it is crowded. The difference is, the ones bitching in this thread have more of a choice in that matter.

??????

Sorry guys, I'm kinda with Ally and Tom on this one.

What can I say? I'm a "quirkyalone."

The choice is yours (revisited)

Tad's protestors/solicitors comment brings up a weird distinction for me: how do you all feel about a large group of protestors fucking up downtown traffic flow or ability to get into places you're trying to enter?

right, and once again your point of view is the only one that matters. to anyone, anywhere.

Tad's protestors/solicitors comment brings up a weird distinction for me: how do you all feel about a large group of protestors fucking up downtown traffic flow or ability to get into places you're trying to enter?

i don't like it.

Now, don't get me wrong. This is not about the charities/causes/organizations in question, it's about the TACTIC.

e.g., i was very much opposed to the war in iraq, but i also didn't like having my morning commute extended b/c some folks clogging the streets in midtown (AFTER the decision had been made and NOTHING COULD BE DONE ABOUT IT).

Just because one lives in a more crowded environment, that doesn't mean a basic respect for one's fellow human being gets thrown out the window, for pete's sake! I can't fucking STAND everyone's "hey, it's NYC, love it or leave it" atttitude here. It's ridiculous.

Are those the kids that aggressively hawk bags of peanut M&M's? That shit's not right either. I'm not saying they should be lined-up, mowed down and dumped in a mass grave, but haven't you EVER thought to yourself "gee, I really wish these folks would leave me alone when all I'm trying to do is walk down the street!"? And Yes, "INVASIVE" is the perfect word for it. And I don't care if that street is in downtown Manhattan or downtown Pataskala, Ohio. It's a VIOLATION of personal space (not because the street happens to be crowded, but because they are UNSOLICITEDLY entering your space and sometimes impeding your path. You can make all the little pit-bull or Killing Joke jibes you like, it's still a valid point, and I'm not the only one here who thinks so.

The only ones that bug the shit out of me are the Cancer Research canvassers, because they are the flip side of the pharmaceuticals industry, which isn't exactly interested in a proper cure. Also what Ed said about the canvassing companies' cut of the donations gathered. Also I'm hardly going to give my bank details to random casual workers in the street. Fucksake.

the assholes will always side with other assholes.

as someone that both works for a charity and volunteers for a different charity to help with fundraising, i'm pretty disgusted by the people asking for subscriptions/direct debits. they are almost never volunteers, but more often students and out of work actors. they are encouraged to use the 'boy meets girl' technique where they approach the opposite sex and start chatting as if they are flirting, to make the sale. they are paid in commission.

the charities that i work with have decided not to do this, because it just makes people mad, and we didn't think it was worth it.

sometimes they can be hard to avoid. usually i pretend to be texting if i see a clump of them. otherwise i smile blandly as i walk past. if they heckle even a little bit ('hey, so you don't care about cancer?') i'll usually ask them how much they get paid an hour, what percentage their agency takes off the top of each donation, and how much volunteering they do a week. i also note that bucket drives/charity panhandling is one of the most regressive forms of collecting money, rich people almost never give money this way, it tends to be poorer people including students. this usally shuts them up. once it's gone beyond that and i had to get really mean. if that happened again i'd call his boss and have the person fired. and call the charity that they are supposedly working for and complain that this person was mean in the name of save the children/greenpeace/etc.

rant over. except to say that it's good to give to charities. just in other ways. :)

(xpost)

as i was making my 2 minutes journey home, i ended up being harassed for FIVE MINUTES as this jehovah witness guy trying to shove me a leaflet - "HELLO! I'M, LIKE, CARRYING 3 CRATES OF COCA COLA HERE! HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO TAKE YOUR FUCKING LEAFLET??????".

Bloody hell.

1. Pretend I had a vision in which God just appeared and said FUCK OFF.
2. Tell them I'm an atheist and believe that after you die, you're just DEAD.
3. "Sorry, Beelzebub my master doesn't allow me to talk to God-botherers."
4. Just stop and stare like a serial killer until they go the fuck away. Don't say a word or respond in any way while doing this one.

Tad, I have designated religious canvassers as my official whipping boyz, which saves the rest of the world from me spazzing out and being rude at it. Are there really a ton more Messianic Jews than there used to be? There was a cheap-lease church by my mom's house which had a congregation of them in the late '70s

the J4Js really irk me, b/c i think that they're anti-semitic and openly disrespectful of judaism as well as being really pushy (which distinguishes them from the jehovah's witnesses, who don't seem to go out of their way to diss any other specific religious group). jewish friends also tell me that the J4Js get a lot of their money from the southern baptists and pentacostalists.

-- suzy (theartskooldisk...), January 29th, 2004. (later)

Yeah I used say 'no' as well, but nowdays its more 'sorry' and no eye contact. Someone from a charity did manage to get hold of my attention for a few minutes but I had to give my credit details and I felt very uncomfortable so I said 'sorry' and walked.

as far as ppl handing out stuff I don't extend my hand.

I've never had problems with any of them and never really thought of all of this as a big deal until this thread.

I agree with you Alex, going by my own definition of "basic respect for one's fellow human being" of which I don't think street corner charity solicitors qualify, but to each his/her own. But obviously others aren't as clued in to your definition. And you know why? *drum roll* You live with more people around you, so thanks to good ol' math and statitistics, you're MORE LIKELY to have to deal with that.

But you know, just be thankful you don't live in a small baptist town, where the people there, being in a much smaller city, would obviously annoy you more far, surmising your opinions on deeply religious people.

I say you got it good, given that you live in a place with 8 million people, but only have to deal with a handful of those disrespectful charity people wanting you to help their cause on the streets.

Or more to the point, me dost think you protest about pretty much anything too much.

Do I want culture? or do I want nobody in my personal space? Hmmmm....

Otherwise, I'll stick to paraphrasing teeny's comment on the "I won't go there" thread ("Some people just like to bitch and moan")

Of course living in a more crowded environment means I'm more likely to have such run-ins, but once again....DOES THAT MAKE IT RIGHT OR ANY LESS ANNOYING?

... if you guys are especially sensitive to 'invasion of privacy' issues in general, again, why do you live in a place where the average amount of personal space is the lowest?

I don't think having an objection to being pestered on the street constitues being "especially sensitive" (much less a sociopath, as Cauistry Chris was suggesting). I'd also like to point out that this particular method of canvassing (the Solicitation Gauntlet: setting up two representatives on EACH SIDE of the street, making it virtually impossible to escape their attack be you coming or going) is a relatively new phenomenon (as in the last two or three years). Yes, in a city such a NYC, personal space is limited, but that's sheerly because of the number of people who are here and going about their own respective days. The people I'm decrying here, meanwhile , are going OUT OF THEIR WAY to get INTO YOUR WAY! There's the difference.

If I gave them the time and attention they wanted, the upshot would probably be the loss of a couple dollars from my wallet (no big deal) and several year's worth of junkmail in my mailbox (urgh).

http://www.bimmini.com/studios/mace.jpg

Oh oh oh...and the kids who wander the subways seemingly at all hours, selling candy for "computers for their schools?"

To say nothing of the occasional Larouchian on 14th Street.

Well, I was thinking more of the spray variety, but that'll do.

these aren't the Black Israelites, are they?

Oh oh oh...and the kids who wander the subways seemingly at all hours, selling candy for "computers for their schools?"

someone told me that this is run by the gangs -- dunno if it's true. and these kids can be less than polite, too (though ultimately harmless), come to think of it.

Here we go again... I don't mind riding crowded subways because it's everyone in the same boat, trying to get somewhere, and in my lifetime I've only run across one or two that deliberately tried to get all up in my face. I guess I'm not counting gooser-perverts (who are insane) and I don't enjoy the solicitations of beggars or buskers all that much (it's their loudness more than anything), but even if I'm held a captive audience for five minutes at least I'm on a train and I know I'm still getting where I need to go.

Otherwise? I don't really go to Times Square that often, I usually stay away from parades and such, and my neighborhood of residence (which is where I encounter the Greenpeacers) is mostly pretty quiet. So I think I've been handling the space issue well.

Actually, wait, of course I'm counting them. But I don't come across them that often, so whatever.

For a start, don't be such a humorless bastard. Secondly, I'm annoyed by this phenomenon, not ENRAGED by it. Thirdly, I've met a few people from here on ILX, and I'll let them vouch for whether I'm timid or not.

Those are the self-proclaimed Black Arabs, I believe, and for the most part they are the wrong people to fuck with, as I doubt they'd think twice about being abusive (physically and verbally) to anyone they perceive as a "white devil" and the like.

http://images.villagevoice.com/bestof/2003/content-politics.jpg

what does humor have to do with me calling you on your "rage"? this thread has been rather serious in tone.

you havent responded to my post on how you formulate your rage threads either. dont get your feet caught up while you backpedal ok?

maybe you just need to get laid more than anything.

I figured you were reacting to my inclusion of the picture of the mace, which was a joke (or at least I'd expect you'd have assumed as much). I don't actively condone attacking people with maces, despite what you might think. Or nail guns, for that matter. It's just hyperbole.

you havent responded to my post on how you formulate your rage threads either. dont get your feet caught up while you backpedal ok?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that I'm not actually irritated by this stuff? Why would I waste time starting threads about them otherwise? And it's not RAGE. If I'm truly ENRAGED about something, I probably wouldn't choose ILX to vent it. Maybe I'm just guilty of assuming people don't take everything they read on these stupid threads SO DEADLY SERIOUSLY, as you seem to be doing.

maybe you just need to get laid more than anything.

Great. Drag this down into the gutter, why don'tcha. Run out of other ideas? For a start, I'm married and thus probably get laid more than you (and have a child on the way as a result). Why do you assume that anyone with a grievance is simply sexually frustrated? Is your world that narrow?

i am confused, are these "annoyance"threads of yours supposed to be funny?

xpost
why am i dragging it down to the gutter? i know you are married (as am i) and i know your wife is pregnant. so i thought id mention it.

life is way too short for me to get worked up about things i can not control. and with that in mind i am done with this thread.

I do tell these people off. It'd be nice if I didn't HAVE to, though. That's my point.

why am i dragging it down to the gutter? i know you are married (as am i) and i know your wife is pregnant. so i thought id mention it.

To what end? To make yourself look like an asshole? Mission accomplished.

life is way too short for me to get worked up about things i can not control.

Who's getting worked up? Do you just life roll right over you without saying anything? Haven't you ever wanted to ask why things are the way they are or at least compare notes with others to see what they have to say on the subject? Isn't that the point of these boards?

and with that in mind i am done with this thread.

What a cop-out.

My fault for the confusion. I guess I should have used the word "personal time" as opposed to personal space.

And granted, my only experience in Manhattan was on Easter weekend, so everything seemed pretty chill and mellow that time, but maybe on a normal day, the amount of charity solicitors is 10 x that than here in Seattle (where it is more common than in other cities), in which case, I could see it being too much.

But getting back to Alex's argument about the tactic..

Well, if so many people continue to use the tactic, it must be helping them, right? They do have a right to do this on the streets, right? And they're easily avoidable and take no more than seconds of your time at most to dismiss, right? (this is getting back to what hstencil said about 300 messages ago). So I still don't see what the big deal is. You have a problem with charity solicitors that are using a tried and true tactic. Oh well! Sucks, doesn't it.

If anybody, you should probably be hatin' on my hippie muthafuckin' self, Alex, more than the people who solicit, because when I'm not stressed for time as much, I often do stop and listen to what these people have to say, and will -- in half the cases where the causes seem legit -- give a buck, or sign a piece of paper. Therefore, I'm supporting this activity. And I don't feel forced or pressured to do it, because there are many ways I can tell them "no" without coming off as an asshole, and still be perfectly honest. So, the tactic exists because it works.

So once again, sorry that the tactic bothers you. Life sucks.

The smell of burnt fishsticks makes me feel absolutely fucking nauseous, but I can't tell my next door neighbor to stop burning her motherfucking Mrs. Paul's every night, because she has a right to do that (as long as she doesn't burn the complex down too).

They're not supposed to be anything. Morever, I wouldn't categorically categorize them as "annoyance threads". This particular thread happens to be about something that annoys me. The Pit Bull thread was just a thread borne out of curiosity. The Shania-Wears-Ramones-T-shirts thread was just an exclamation of disapproval. If they turn out to be funny, that's great. The point, I always assumed, was to put forth an idea, and see where it goes. If it leads to something funny or poignant or insightful or contentious than so be it.

OMFG man, are you kidding?

What a cop-out.

if these threads aren't supposed to be anything, what am i copping out of?

Once again, it might help them, but where is the consideration for those it bothers?

They do have a right to do this on the streets, right?

Not sure, actually.

And they're easily avoidable and take no more than seconds of your time at most to dismiss, right?

Not so. Like I said before, they flank BOTH sides of the street. There really is no way to avoid having to interract with them (and that includes actively ignoring them).

You have a problem with charity solicitors that are using a tried and true tactic. Oh well! Sucks, doesn't it.

Yes it does. Hence this thread.

If anybody, you should probably be hatin' on my hippie muthafuckin' self, Alex, more than the people who solicit, because when I'm not stressed for time as much, I often do stop and listen to what these people have to say, and will -- in half the cases where the causes seem legit -- give a buck, or sign a piece of paper. Therefore, I'm supporting this activity.

Bully for you. Once again, though, it's not the cause, it's the tactic. I'm all for helping out a legit cause, but I'm less inclined to if they choose to be this aggressive.

And I don't feel forced or pressured to do it, because there are many ways I can tell them "no" without coming off as an asshole, and still be perfectly honest. So, the tactic exists because it works.

It works for some at the expense of others.

So once again, sorry that the tactic bothers you. Life sucks.

No, life doesn't suck. Well, maybe your life sucks, but mine doesn't.

The smell of burnt fishsticks makes me feel absolutely fucking nauseous, but I can't tell my next door neighbor to stop burning her motherfucking Mrs. Paul's every night, because she has a right to do that (as long as she doesn't burn the complex down too).

You do have the right, however, to go inform her that it's hampering your quality of life.

and while i'm not at ALL snobby about what one does w/ one's JD, and would always stick up fer trial lawyers, i think that kephm has some rather peculiar ideas in thinking that "tax lawyers" are somehow inferior to "trial lawyers" and "don't have what it takes to be trial lawyers," and that this is the "conventional wisdom" in the legal community. or that there's a necessary distinction between "tax lawyers" and "trial lawyers" in the first place (i.e., didja know that the IRS has a SHITLOAD of "tax lawyers" who do nothing but "trial lawyer" work?)

dumbass.

I thought you were leaving!

You can't hear any vocal inflection in my voice, nor can you see any contortions of my face. Thus, how do you know if I'm actually getting worked up?

if these threads aren't supposed to be anything, what am i copping out of?

It's a cop-out when you walk out of a debate just because you like the last word. And by saying the thread aren't supposed to be anything implies that they are purely an open forum, and not designed, necessarily to take any specific tone.

xpost

(And I did admit to NOT liking people who do this door-to-door, whereas some people even don't mind that, so that tactic, which does bother me, is also tried and true and works as well. So, in a way, I empathize. I just can't see how a) I can really make it go away, and b)exert the effort and suffer the resulting anxiety to make it worth the effort to try and make it go away.)

I'm not asking nor expecting you to make it go away (although I'd be highly impressed if you were able to). The whole point of this thread was to ask if (a) anyone else was bothered by this and (b) find out more about it (c) possibly commiserate with those that do feel bothered by it and finally (d) maybe learn from others who support the tactic. It seems to me that all these goals have been met.

kephm --- I'm sorry too. Didn't mean to make this a fight thread either. Lemme buy ya a beer sometime.

I KID, I KID!

(i dunno about the rest of you, i'll have to sleep on that one.)

http://www.dragonslairii.com/arcade/Videotopia/images/Gauntlet.jpg

K@mal Ahm3d, political editor
Sunday March 7, 2004
The Observer

One of the world's leading charities is to abandon 'chugging', the controversial method of accosting people in the street and asking for money, because the public finds it so irritating.

The chairman of Greenpeace, Martyn Day, said that what the industry calls 'face to face' campaigning was now having a negative effect on the group's profile and fundraising efforts. Chugging - short for 'charity mugging' - got an increasingly bad name after initial successes led to a flood of charities using young people to ask passerbys to donate by direct debit.

In large cities, the public was being asked up to four or five times a day to give money, according to critics.

It was also revealed that private companies were making substantial profits by providing the chuggers. They charge commission on anyone they sign up to donate to a charity.

'Certainly it has had its heyday and without question it is on its way out,' Day told The Observer. 'As with all of these ideas there is a period when the public accepts it but then you start moving into problems of consumer resistance.

'As a person who lives and works in London I find it very irritating as do other people. And if I'm finding it irritating then I am sure that our supporters or potential supporters find it irritating as well. It is time to move on, this is something that has passed its sell-by date.'

The move by Greenpeace is particularly significant as the organisation is believed to have been the first to introduce chugging to Britain in 1996. The idea originated from Austria, where small charities had remarkable returns by signing up people for direct debits on the street rather than simply rattling collecting tins.

Greenpeace said that it would still use some face-to-face methods but in strictly controlled environments. Chuggers would still be used in small towns where the technique is less well known.

The charity also called for the Government to bring in regulations to control the trade and stop illegal operators raising money.

Some chugging groups have been attacked for being intimidating and for using manipulative techniques to raise money.

Charities are beginning to distance themselves from chugging after new research released last month revealed that more discreet methods, such as personalised mailshots and door-to-door collection, were much more successful.

Last year it is estimated that 690,000 people were persuaded to agree to what is called a 'committed giving' contract, donating a small amount each month. This is a much more efficient way for charities to raise money

See? Enough with the intimidation! Bloodletting doesn't convince we citizens to give to the needy.

Wahey!

the guy also had like 8 other petitions he tried to get you to sign once he roped you in. wonder if those dudes make a good living now that we have a popular governer nobody wants to recall whilst shopping at target.

The whole weirdness of his approach meant that instead of reacting, as it was happening, we continued to walk straight by without even glancing at him, altering stride, or showing any expression on our faces. As we were just about past he had finished his do do da da pointing thing and said, "hello?... can i? ..."

We walked to the end of the street and realized how severely we had blanked him and then we started laughing.

it's "do you have 2 minutes to save a child's life?"

how fucking manipulative is that?

They're baaaaaack. Just got hassled by a couple of Greenpeace goons on Broadway.

haha, did they ever really go away?!?

I've worked in places where they prowl every day in packs, but oddly where I am in Soho you never see them.

I wouldn't mind if "hey, Got a second for [insert charity here]?" is what the ones I encountered said, but they're more inclined to hop straight into the meat of what they're saying. My issue with it isn't really being irritated, more that I don't like being unpleasant to people, even when they plainly won't care, so halting their spiel mid-sentence with a "no, sorry" is not something I want to be doing.

once i got mobbed by a group that wanted me to donate blood right there on the spot. I wiggled my way out with some difficulty.

once i got mobbed by a group that wanted me to donate blood right there on the spot. I wiggled my way out with some difficulty.

creepy!

What I don't like is when anybody, whether they're standing behind a table selling scratch cards, or standing in front of you with a clipboard, puts you in the position of saying "no" to cancer research or panda babies or some other cause you actually do care about, but just don't want to deal with right there and then.

I feel bad for chuggers, because they're usually just teenagers working a summer job for peanuts. I still ignore them, though.

I feel bad for chuggers, because they're usually just teenagers working a summer job for peanuts. I still ignore them, though.

Hey, I was a jobless teenager once too -- until I discovered the low-paying and self-esteem-destroying joys of dish-washing. While I was invariably a raging pain the ass to my co-workers, I managed not to annoy most of the general public. Any teenage charity mugger who gets lip from an agitated pedestrian fuckin' deserves it.

I just say something like "I already gave" - and that would work for blood donation vampires also! I really don't find it that much of a hassle.

I have been flyering people for a week now and it is destroying my soul. (Not chugging but close enough)

I've considered going "Yeah" and taking a second to tell them all the things they could be doing for the environment that are more effective than harassing people on the street for Greenpeace, but someone's gotta waste college kids' time over the summer, so.

it's so easy to ignore someone, to pretend they don't even exist..

these douchebags are the real problem:

http://www.altrue.net/altruesite/files/uho/MVC-011S.JPG

these folks were out in full force last fall when I was working in Philadelphia for a couple of months. At first I was annoyed, but then I got to where I was basically laughing (not contemptuously or anything; rather "hey bro, it's still 'no' and my word, you're tenacious") at the same couple of dudes I saw EVERY DAY, and they would just shrug and laugh back.

one was quite the little lothario, making a bee-line for every young-ish, slightly attractive female who happened his way.

(the greenpeace folks, not the UHO. the homeless I encountered were definitely independent operators)

This girl and I were leaving lunch, walking down the sidewalk in Portland, and we see this chick up ahead who's waving at us and all smiles and cutesy cutesy, and we get within hollerin' distance and she starts going "hiiii guys! how's yer daaay goin, hmmmm?" and I notice she's holding a clipboard. We get up close and she moves the clipboard and we see she's wearing a Greenpeace shirt, and she goes, "so do you guys want to help save the trees today?" and I said "Hahaha, no thanks. Oregon has plenty of trees" and her cute-smiling-happy-hippie face pulls a handbrake u-turn and in the most caustic possible tone she says, "Ya know, there's a whole WORLD out there, maaaan!"

I don't understand why a person who gets riled about this sort of thing ever bothers to leave his home at all.

Be not like the Publicans and pray loudly in the streets! Widow's two mites and all that shit! Get outta my temple, people what would turn me into a vainglorious Pharisee!

THINK ABOUT IT.

Srsly these people are not bothering you in your homes, they're approaching you in public space. How else do you expect them to make appeals?

This never happens anywhere I've lived except at Xmas with the Salvo ringers, unobtrusive folks.

Srsly these people are not bothering you in your homes, they're approaching you in public space. How else do you expect them to make appeals?

They can "make appeals" like -- gosh, I don't know -- EVERY OTHER CHARITY ON THIS EARTH, instead of accosting innocent folks on the street.

And just becaus they're "not bothering you in your homes," are you suggesting that the second one steps outside of their home they're somehow fair game? Personal space still exists within public space. Respect it.

Do you not get them coming to your door then? I refuse to give money to any charity that has people standing on your doorstep trying to make you feel guilty because you can't get away from them as easily as you can in the street.

Well, door-to-door solicitation is a trickier feat to pull off here in Manhattan, mercifully (unless you're wealthy enough to live in a brownstone or something), so that hasn't been a problem as yet. Maybe if I lived in the suburbs, that would be a bigger pet peeve. Actually, it would handily vault over the status of "pet peeve" and/or "annoyance" and land squarely in the realm of "indefensible affront" and/or "justification for senseless violence."

yeah, door-to-door solicitation is a bigger problem in the suburbs. but the solicitors are more likely to be Jehovah's Witnesses than Save the Earth types (though my parents got the latter, too).

and if they weren't clogging the sidewalks, they'd be clogging your mailbox with their junkmail. wait, they already do that!

And just becaus they're "not bothering you in your homes," are you suggesting that the second one steps outside of their home they're somehow fair game?

Yeah dude. People can ask you whatever the fuck they want in public, whether it's "Where's the nearest Subway?" or "Can I talk to you for a minute about the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge?" or "Can you spare a dollar to help me buy some heroin?" as long as they're not doing it in a harassing manner. And you can say no. Grow up.

First off, don't call me "dude." Secondly, people asking me "whatever the fuck they want" in public is not the issue. It's the tactic of placing themselves squarely in my trajectory that I'm objecting to.

And asking someone for directions and asking them for "a moment of their time" and invariably a signature are two entirely different sets of circumstances.

YOU grow up!

alex you should collect names in the street against this.

People can ask you whatever the fuck they want in public

no they can't, suburbanite. if you're not from here, and don't understand the rules, i'm happy to be helpful, but the unspoken code that allows 8 million people to dance peacefully on the head of a pin is stay out of each others' face.

I've never lived in a suburb in my life, for the record.

But if you want to believe your bullshit upper-middle-class ideas are some kind of *urban code*, feel free.

You street tough you.

asking for money on the street should just be outlawed. especially when it's kids to their parents for furbies.

you live in JC or Hoboken, right? those look like suburbs from here.

the on-the-street solicitation is different from the subway one, too, because it's addressed to an individual rather than the subway car at large, and imposes the obligation to respond.

lol, ''upper-middle-class ideas"

Jersey City is a city: 240,000 people. Where do you live again? Upper West Side? Gritty.

i mean, sorry to be a dick, but this one justifies alex-style hyperbole

i'm well aware that JC is not a rural area. but it ain't manhattan - my zip code is more than 5 times as many people per square mile as JC. i don't know what you think 'grit' has to do with it.

When accosted by Greenpeaceniks, just say the magic phrase "ALREADY DONATED" and watch them gently part like still waters before the bow of a rowboat.

Really, this is not something to blow a gasket over.

Anyway, even in my backwater I get solicited on the street, not to mention when I'm in Manhattan. The only street solicitation that really annoys me is a regular on the PATH train who pretends to be asking for money for a shelter and does the same sad sack routine every time. Deception bothers me.

(er, not a "street" solicitation)

http://i.somethingawful.com/u/bobservo/simcity/b.jpg

the analogy is nyc sidewalks = streets of yr non-ny town. we're walking to work or school or doing errands not taking a fucking stroll. so it's like if you were driving somewhere and another car forced you off the side of the road and proceeded to solicit a charitable donation.

the whole thing reeks of moonie/krishna cultdom anyway. "excuse me sir don't you want to Save The Children? (TM)" in response I gesture to the child walking at my side indicating I've got my hands full, thanks for asking!

whether this is an improvement on being acosted by 3-card monte dealers and guys trying to sell beat weed I'll leave up to you...

I don't know which insinuation is more fatuous: that New York is the only place where people walk to work, or that sidewalk solicitation would actually be a viable fund-raising method in a place where the sidewalks weren't constantly teeming with people.

Just admit to yourself that you're annoyed because you're a calloused New Yorker and your time is too valuable and you actively avoid eye-contact with passers-by. Stop inventing justifications based on special laws that apply only to your city.

jesus elmo have you always been this humorless? give me a break already. part of the whatever prawblum I have w/these folks stems from the fact that I make eye contact w/everybody I pass by pretty much and even stop to talk sometimes. I'm not trying to justify anything I basically don't care one way or the other about being solicited my only objection is that these "charities" smell like a scam.

fuck it Im goin back on ilx-vacation.

if they're still out on the streets soliciting, it must work. What about the people who give money to these jagoffs? They're the real wimps. Being rude is the correct choice.

I mean, real-like telemarketing is too much.

Eh, my criticism isn't on you in particular -- sorry if it came off that way -- but I just don't buy into that insular mythos of New York. And I can understand that being constantly around so many people all the time -- and so many people with their hands out for money for questionable causes -- can really desensitize you.

It's one of the reasons I didn't stay in NYC after I finished school, honestly.

xpost

hey HEY sorry I blew a gasket there...what I said could apply to any city or town square or campus quad whatever...these soliciters in nyc the last few years are really are really aggressive tho in this cheery blank-stared way that reminds me of the old school cult recruiters.

the idea of me being this purposeful yuppie w/PLACES TO GO PEOPLE TO MEET AND MONEY TO MAKE would be a joke if you knew me. but these kids aren't even worth arguing with. anyway, again, sorry bout that guess us ny'ers are touchy (esp the ones from the midwest).

Save the Children is not only a legit charity but a highly respected and extremely efficient one:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/4438.htm

Nonetheless, one possible response is "I don't give on the street as a rule. I'll take some literature and think it over."

One other thing -- if there was some extremely pressing political issue that affected you personally, wouldn't you want to maintain the right to canvass about it in the street? Like suppose GWB had taken several of your loved ones prisoners as *enemy combatants*, or the city was trying to eminent domain your home and a bunch of others in the neighborhood for an illegitimate project. Is a few extra seconds of quiet in your day really more important to you than the right to political action?

I just scream NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO as loud as I can.

Or I just say that I hate children.

haha, no worries. :D xpost

anyway, I'm not as annoyed by weird or cultish causes as I am about product-pushing street teams and people who ask me if I like comedy.

hahaha I always pull a harsh face and say "NO I HATE COMEDY"

hurting the street solicitors in question aren't from Save The Children but rather something called Children International (sic) however they always say save the children no doubt in an effort to confuse.

street solicitors in general can fuck right off, be they for charities or guerilla marketing or whatever. Don't get me wrong I am all for charities and supporting legitimate causes and institutions, etc. but the whole "lets send out a herd of perky college kids on summer break" hiring tactic is just irritating.

In SF most of the time in the summer its CalPIRG - but yeah been seeing this Children International kids around lately.

ah ok, I've seen Save the Children canvassing too so thought that was what you meant. Children International, however, doesn't sound too bad either:

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm/bay/search.summary/orgid/3479.htm

I just had more sympathy for chuggers when I thought they were actual volunteers for the charity. I'd stop and be polite then. Then I found out they were getting paid for it, so now I think fuck 'em.

the way CalPIRG works they specifically target college students who need a summer job and hire them to do this kind of canvassing for three months. I remember people trying to get me to do it when I was in college and my reaction was christ no, that job sounds terrible.

"I don't give on the street as a rule. I'll take some literature and think it over."

This actually sounds like a pretty good let-em-down-easy tactic. These guys - Cal-Pirg in particular - were on many San Diego street corners when I lived there, and I always told them "Sorry, I donate online." Sometimes I wasn't even lying.

I hate being interrupted when I'm out, because I usually have my mind on other things. I've definitely fucked up the great grocery list in my head thanks to charity solicitors.

I get home all like "where'd the cheese go?"

I did NJPIRG for a few weeks in college, and they had me door to door for Sierra Club. It IS a terrible job for sure. Some of the kids stopping you on the street are probably ten times more uncomfortable than you are.

Oh shit! So there's more than one Pirg? Far out.

yeah, there's a RIPIRG too

the way CalPIRG works they specifically target college students who need a summer job and hire them to do this kind of canvassing for three months. I remember people trying to get me to do it when I was in college and my reaction was christ no, that job sounds terrible.

That job IS terrible -- I did it for a couple months. I was slammed in the face of and generally threatened an awful lot. My coworkers had great drugs for sale, though, so there was that.

My brother did this for NYPIRG. He was arrested twice. Horrible job, but he's a persuasive talker, so he made a lot of money. Door to door people are a LOT worse than the people in the street. I have a power walk and ignoring skills of steel. A shake of the head is sufficient. You just have to look like you will actually run them down if they don't give way.

http://www.biblesociety.org/wr_332/332_p10.jpg

real life ilxconnexions #6476

just got approached by a solo Children Intl rep on Bway, I collapsed in giggles, she looked at me like I was nutz, my son was like "wtf dad?"

Jersey City is denser than Providence

I once interviewed for NYPIRG, and halfway through they wanted to make me some sort of manager dude; about the same time I figured out what a waste the whole thing was and just left

i just flap my hands on my ears, shake my head, and go "uhnn uhnn.". i saw my friend's deaf boyfriend do this one time and it works really well.

PIRG is evil.

CHARITY

THIS VIRTUE IS TEARING US APART

AGAIN

i worked for NJPIRG for a month in college. it's actually one of the reasons why i turned sour on ralph nader even before Election 2000 (to wit: you aren't paid per hour, you're paid by how many signatures you got during your shift -- if you got 0, you didn't get paid.) also, canvassing after the very bad 1996 Blizzard didn't help things any.

the PIRGers themselves were pretty cool. and, with a few notable exceptions (like one dude who threatened to turn loose his dogs on me!), the folks we solicited at home were at least polite.

Does anyone ever actually get zero signatures?

We got base pay plus bonuses for high donation levels. I think there was a minimum for your base pay, below which point you got a reduced base pay. But I don't think that's so evil - it's an incentive-based system like one you'd find in many jobs. I think it's unreasonable to expect charities to be so pure - the fact is they'd never have a well-trained, reliable group of canvassers if they relied on volunteers or if they didn't use some kind of system to ensure that the people actually do their job.

Does anyone ever actually get zero signatures?

nazis

NAP: Nazis Against Puppies

http://m.assetbar.com/achewood/autaux?b=M%5ea11f09b8576e606bcb5038dfdb92fb821&u=http%3A%2F%2Fachewood.com%2Fcomic.php%3Fdate%3D09212007

Hahahaha I knew that would end up on ILE when I saw it this morning.

Indian dude named "Benny" just now: Sir, are you familiar with spray adhesives? Spray fixatives?
Me: uh, yeah, where are you going with this?
Benny: And are you familiar with compressed air for cleaning your keyboard?
Me: What is it you're trying to sell me, Benny?
Benny: Well, sir, I would like the opportunity to introduce my product to your industr--
Me: no, no, no, no, no thanks, no --
Benny: William, if you say "no," how am I going to eat?
Me: I have no idea!
(click)

(He hung up before I did.)

In London charities have started getting attractive girls (and probably guys) with no obvious charity mugger trapping to come up and start talking to people in the street as if they were just chatting them up, before working the subject round to the charity they work for and how much money they want off you. Caught me a bit off guard the first time it happened to me, and made me quite angry. When I started to walk away in a huff, the girl had the nerve to act all indignant with me, and shouted after me that I was being rude to her. Fuck em.

Wow, I thought Jenny would have revived this.

Florida PIRG: worst job ever

i actually got a letter about how since i worked for them i can join a class action lawsuit related to labor abuses. but i don't want anything to do with them, even if it will bring me money.

lolololololololololololololol RH

I should have kept the guy on the line longer. If he's combined canned air and spray fixative, what's to keep me from accidentally gluing all my keys down?

Wow, I thought Jenny would have revived this.

Me too.

to get back into the spirit of the original post, I hate those freakazoids, too. See, when you say "no" to the first guy and continue walking, another approaches you ... I say, "I already said no to the first guy" and keep walking ... and, -another- one approaches you.

What's annoying is that they could be stationed from 2nd street all the way up to 14th street, and every street you go up you get confronted -twice-, once at the beginning and again at the end.

bring back the gulf war syndrome vets pls

Sir, are you familiar with spray adhesives? Spray fixatives? And are you familiar with compressed air for cleaning your keyboard?

This is kind of the ideal start to a conversation! (Assuming that, unlike Benny, it was not sales and that, unlike my whole neighborhood, they weren't talking about their favorite inhalants.)

It was a hugely long, trying day. The wife and myself were struggling home with our two little kids (ages 5 and 3), just trying to get home and start the dinner/bathtime/bedtime process. Once again, on the VERY SAME STRIP OF REAL ESTATE on University Place, two clipboard-wielding guys from Save the Children get right up in our face (oblivious to the fact that we clearly have our hands full with two irritable little kids). The guys is already fully into his shpiel when I simply say "I can't." "YES YOU CAN," he counters, still walking in my path. "I SAID I CAN'T," I retort, now finally passing him. "You can but YOU WON'T!" he shouts back to us.

Once again, is antagonism really the best way to solicit charity?

In London charities have started getting attractive girls (and probably guys) with no obvious charity mugger trapping to come up and start talking to people in the street

Yeah, they're doing this out here as well. Weird. "You look like a man who knows what he's doing" was the opening line. I was looking around to see who she talking to.

Later I saw her and her gang (all attractive twenty something hipster types) all gathered together having a mini pep rally in the middle of the street. Punching the air and whooping, like some kind of religious thing. All very odd.

"Sorry, I'm pro poverty/child abuse/homelessness/whatever-bullshit-cause-they're-foisting-upon-you"

"You look like a man who knows what he's doing" was the opening line.

I'd have the perfect comeback for that -- "sorry, I don't have a fucking clue" -- because it would be true.

I have another perfect comeback for that - FUCK YOU.

Not that I'd actually say it of course.

Schadenfreude, possibly minus the schaden

These fuckers are but one of the reasons why headphones are a must-have accessory for city living. "What? Sorry, I can't hear you over all this Roger Miller. Sorry."

SuperLOL @ 'I always wear a luminous tabard and carry a clipboard'

At the request of the Humane Society of P______ County, the community service committee will be collecting coats and other winter outerwear for HSPC employees. They need coats, sweaters, hats, scarves and gloves in all sizes. We'll also be collecting children's outerwear, as many of the HSPC employees have families.

Wait, what? We're supposed to bring our old coats not for the general poor and needy, but for the people who work at the Humane Society? I get that it gets cold out there in the winter when they're taking the dogs out, but for their families too?

I'm supposed to make a charitable donation to people who donate their time for charity? Yo dawg, we heard you like charities… Wouldn't giving our winterwear to Coats For Kids or even Goodwill be a better route to helping those who need some extra help?

What am i missing.

Are they volunteer employees? Or maybe they get dirty working with the animals? Maybe they don't want to bring dog and cat hair home?

On the subject, I was approached by Human Rights Campaign, but they were nice and actually told me about legislation, I mean they had something of substance to say and seemed to genuinely care about their cause. Depends on if the people are "going through the motions". I said I am an enthusiastic supporter of HRC and have given to them in the past, but can't commit right now. They were nice. I wished them luck and moved on. I mean, if you talk to enough people about your cause it should bring in some dollars, dollars needed to change discriminatory laws and so forth.

I was alarmed at how much money the anti-gay groups get!!

redirecting from footy thread heading way off course

i had a massive argument with anti-fur people outside a vintage shop before. i tore the guy to shreds, he was left with nothing. they were basically abusing anyone shopping there because it sold second-hand fur.

what did you say to them

i just established that he did tons of unethical shopping and that just because he cared more about animals it didn't mean that didn't matter. i also found the fact it was a second-hand shop a bit weird, like isn't it better to reuse the fur after the animal has already been harmed? surely that stops the demand for more? he didn't really seem to have a satisfactory answer for this but i assume there must be some counter-argument.

it's not even that i disagreed with him, just that i think self-righteously abusing people and intimidating them is bullshit, they were pretty much verbally attacking and surrounding anyone who so much as walked in or out of the shop.

it's not even that i disagreed with him, just that i think self-righteously abusing people and intimidating them is bullshit,

offline, it is, sure

yeah if you're gonna do that have the courtesy not to do it to someone's face.

otm

always feel a little guilty when i hate a cause i'd be vaguely sympathetic towards just cos of its supporters

There's def a specific argument around vintage/second-hand -- wtf was he doing there with no answer to that

they were outside brown thomas last christmas and the accent rendered their chant of 'fur trade? death trade!' (question mark my own) into the rather more revolutionary slogan FOR TRADE DEBT TRADE and i kinda had them figured as another bunch altogether

There's def a specific argument around vintage/second-hand -- wtf was he doing there with no answer to that

what is it? promotes the wearing of fur generally?

similar argument about not legalizing second hand ivory trade iirc

but as far as i know minks aren't endangered

don't talk to me about minks

side questions: is it necessary to run a successful voluntary like a successful business? and does a business-like approach to campaigning create the impression that the cause you're advocating is only a means of earning a living for its advocates?

i.e. "the [so-and-so] rights industry"?

is it necessary to run a successful voluntary like a successful business?

i don't know- never worked for a voluntary. working public sector, and using that as an analogy, then it's not only often unnecessary but it can be damned well toxic and counterproductive to conform to 'businesslike' notions and ideals (yr focus on deliverables, efficiency, streamlining etc) in an undertaking with a different focus than profit (or, that possibly not always being a fair limitation, an enterprise where the end result is not a product)

and does a business-like approach to campaigning create the impression that the cause you're advocating is only a means of earning a living for its advocates?

yeah, it can do i think. and, the contrasting view, that running it unlike a business or in an unprofessional manner opens you to criticisms of inefficiency or that you're doing it as a hobby or w/e.

should people be paid for working for a charity? should it be a full-time job? when somebody can bring in money, attention, what have you, worth more than they cost to employ or engage, is that the only consideration? all that.

yeah when people tell me "i don't like such-and-such a charity cos of all these big salaries they pay their executives" i'm broadly sympathetic but at the same time it's not just about collecting buckets of money and chucking them at yr brave supportees. there's probably a vast middle ground between business-like ruthlessness and being a complete shambles and i feel like by adopting business mentalities a lot of groups have saddled themselves with terrible management but this is sweeping again isn't it.

the bottom line is i'm the kind of person who says "shit is complicated" but lots of people like it to be nice and simple maybe

i can't figure out, most days. if it's good to have the right reason for not giving to charity or not.

should people be paid for working for a charity? should it be a full-time job?

in my ignorance, these seems to me to be kinda important questions, but idk why.

i think they are, but like i said on the other thread a lot of charities never seem to think about why they're doing what they're doing, they just rush around doing their unreflective thing

it's actually boggling the amount of people in london who work for charities. it must be quite a big part of the economy. almost always girls too ime.

it can be damned well toxic and counterproductive to conform to 'businesslike' notions and ideals (yr focus on deliverables, efficiency, streamlining etc) in an undertaking with a different focus than profit (or, that possibly not always being a fair limitation, an enterprise where the end result is not a product)

I've only ever worked in public sector and I would say to focus on efficiency, streamlining and deliverables is not only reasonable but the only way to go. doesn't matter if the end result is not a product. public and third sector bodies have aims and objectives which are proxies for products. and they are given money by the state/donors and those ppl increasingly expect to see that their money is being spent wisely.

spending wisely always equates to efficiency, streamlining and deliverables? the public shd be micromanaging their tax contributions and charitable donations?

also there may be some forms of "product" which are not interchangeable with "commodities". also are you assuming businesses do and/or should adopt the most efficient means of maximizing profit? also what's the equivalent of profit - not output - in non-profit making enterprises?

i'll grant you all of that, i guess, with the proviso that in housing (my area) the entire gamut exists because it would not work as a business and this changes a lot of the dynamic.

it comes down to the definition of the targets and aims.

the people who want to tell me, most of the time, how they would like to see their money spent ever more wisely tend towards the 'there is no need for public housing', for instance. granted, again, that this is no reason to throw planning and efficiency to the winds, but they're great things in small doses ime.

don't think we're allowing for how competition operates outside of the private sector either

has anyone noticed increased instances of people doing sponsored activities and sending messages out into the ether that reference a death as a reason they're doing whatever the thing is?

i mean... it just seems kind of rude to me. if you mailed some friends who knew you and knew about the death - but i mean on massive office all-in emails, or on social media.

can't help but feel there's something unsavoury about this.

Theyre milking it kind of thing?

Seems a bit harsh, but i get what you mean alright, 'my mum died, pls give'

why aren't these in GTA V

Thanks mate, i gtav already

Canvassers can fuck right off, but more importantly Grassr00ts C4mpa1gns can just die in a fire

Fortunately I have no more qualms about striding briskly past a canvasser hassling me than I do a crust punk hassling me

On a particularly grumpy day I yelled at a canvasser to get a better job, which I regret though, sorry random guy trying to meet an insane daily quota of suckers providing you with a CC# for whatever org it was that day.

"You look like a man who knows what he's doing" was the opening line.

I'd have the perfect comeback for that -- "sorry, I don't have a fucking clue" -- because it would be true.

― Beanbag the Gardener (WmC), Saturday, June 20, 2009 6:15 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

These chuggers usually give me the line "You look like a person who cares about [CAUSE BEING EXPLOITED TO RAISE FUNDS]!" To which I reply "Get your eyes checked NOW."

What I resent is when a canvasser is working the sidewalk near the bus stop where I'm standing--the wait is agonizing enough without having to listen to someone's spiel.

making animal noises works

do any of you actually give money to charity? i just had a very convincing oxfam guy at my door - i didn't sign up though because i don't like someone working their sales mojo on me on my doorstep.

is there any way to sift through all the hard sell and make a worthwhile contribution?

Sure, even one that has the execrable Grassroots Campaigns shilling for them (Planned Parenthood). I don't need all my money.

yes, i just signed up for a charity that provides free cataract operations to people who can't afford it. everyone in my family has had cataracts and i likely will too, which is how the guy sold me on it.