The Curse of the "Nice Girl" Syndrome

I think there is but not in so many words. (I am not being flip.)

Even now most of the compliments I get are "youre cute!". I mean I take that as a compliment, I dont want to confuse all those lovely people who really mean well, but ... knowing I'm not some knockout stunner who will ever garner an "oh my GOD, she is SO GORGEOUS" comment, while not a bad thing, gets to me time and again.

Think of it this way tho Dee. If you constantly got attention for being hot and sexy, would you be paranoid people only liked you for that? :) I'd rather be known and liked for being good and caring and a cool friend than anything else, when it boils down to it :)

I think this is very very true. Wish I could do better at same! But you don't want to know what I'm like when I get in a bit of a spiral-down mood on that point.

xpost Milo OTM, which is why I said I didnt mean to suggest I thought "cute" was an insult or anything, cos it aint :)

Having said that... the responses I'm getting here are eye-opening, particularly coming from over here. Ok, so being a "nice girl" would definitely work when it comes to a list of certain positive things in life. It just seems that at this moment in my life, it isn't providing me with the positives I feel like I'd need. I suppose in the future this will come in rather handy, but I'm a bit impatient by nature and so the time period in which this will probably be extremely beneficial is too far off in the distance for me at this time.

I'm especially grateful for this comment:

Please believe me, Dee, when I say that the opposite is no better than you feel your situation is.

The cliche of "the grass is always greener on the other side" IS truly that, a cliche, but it's a valid one, especially in this sort of situation. I would welcome an explanation of this, but if you feel as though you can't explain further either publicly or privately, that's perfectly ok. Just the reminder of the whole "grass is always greener" thing is very much welcomed.

Trust me, some of us guys get attracted exactly to the "nice girls", and are put off by girls who are generally considered as "gorgeous" or "sexy". Also, would you really like someone to fancy you only because you're gorgeous and sexy?

Someone with "Nice Girl" Syndrome can never really gain respect as an expert in some field, but rather can only seem to gain respect after many decades of being a "nice girl" and only if they've done something particularly special, e.g. Mother Teresa. A "Nice Girl" Syndrome sufferer doesn't lead a particularly exciting life, because the circles they end up running in don't lead to a particularly exciting life.

This is a trickier question. It sounds like you don't think "nice girl" is a role that's exactly meant for you. I can relate to this, I used to be known as a "nice guy", and I still am, mostly. There's nothing wrong with that, since I think I basically am a nice bloke, but I felt there's more to me than the "niceness". So I began to change my habits, if only in minor ways. I started to say, occasionally, what I really thought on different subjects, not just agree with other folks. I know this isn't easy, because it takes self-confidence, and my lack of self-confidence is one of the reasons I became a "nice guy" in the first place. But you don't have to change in a day, you can begin with small things and gradually build the confidence to act differently. It helps if you come into a new situation, a new job for example, because people who don't know don't have preconceptions about your persona, so you can take a different role with them. And you shouldn't worry that your "true self" gets lost in this role-play, since roles are all we have, there's nothing beneath them. Some roles are just more fitting for some people than others.

Now I don't know if any of this is relevant to you, it's just my take on the subject.

don't tease

There was a guy in college who I was really into, we kinda mucked around a lot at parties and went home together a couple of times, but it never really got off the ground. I wasn't devastated, but I was a bit upset and more than slightly confused. Ran into him about seven years later in NYC, and he confessed "you were hot as hell, I really fancied you, but you were a psycho! I was scared you were going to kill me or something!"

It sounds like dumb old wives' tale advice, but honestly, the best thing you can do is just forget about the "Nice girl"/Bad Girl virgin/whore dichotomy and be yourself. Do you want someone to love you for their projection of what archetype you fit into, or do you want someone to love you for who you actual are, contradictions included? It might take a little longer to attain the latter, but it's worth it. "Every pot will find its cover" etc. etc.

< /lame smug married advice >

I guess everyone has to have a schtick, but it seems yours is making you unhappy. Do you think your ILX persona and your life on the boards has had a negative effect in this way?

Trust me, some of us guys get attracted exactly to the "nice girls", and are put off by girls who are generally considered as "gorgeous" or "sexy". Also, would you really like someone to fancy you only because you're gorgeous and sexy?

OTM. It doesn't make the feeling mutual in my experience, but hey...

I can kind of relate Dee because I used to be nice. Now I'm Bea Arthur, so I think you should stick with being nice.

Beat me to it.

I wouldn't think of it as a syndrome, Dee, cause that has such strong and vivid connotations that it becomes easy to consider yourself the victim of some irrevocable situation in which all you can do is suffer valiantly -- which just isn't the case with much of anything, much less this. It also implies that the only change is in the form of a cure, which is something external and given to you by someone else, something which hasn't got much to do with you at all and that you couldn't take credit for; if you were "cured," then, you could deflect any compliments to that effect by deferring to the curer.

Cause I think one of the things you need to see is that you do deflect compliments, pretty much all of them, pretty much out of hand, either by denying their honesty or by interpreting them so that they aren't properly complimentary. You don't do so out of a lack of respect for the complimenter or for other people who could be described by the complimentary terms you're offered, and I'm not sure you realize the overwhelming consistency with which you do it, at least online. But you do it, and it comes across as insecurity, naturally: and ultimately, insecurity is a much bigger turn-off than niceness could ever be.

(And more importantly, maybe: the people attracted to insecurity aren't good people. I don't just mean romantic attraction; ditto for "turn-off.")

It's also a mode in which no matter what you do with that niceness -- trade it in for the bright shiny Bitch On Wheels you've been admiring in the store window, tweak it into Seemingly Caustic But Ultimately Harmless Wit -- whatever you end up with is going to remain "a huge curse and detriment." And insecurity is certainly a much bigger obstacle than niceness is when it comes to "being taken seriously as an expert," too -- someone who projects a low estimation of themselves is going to bundle it with a low estimation of their abilities as well.

Self-Deprecation: Classic Or Dud

The truth isn't any of these, perhaps somewhere in the middle of all of them, but people will view you through their own lenses. I don't think you can boil personality down to one archetype. yes, you have your own true personality, but other people will also impose their values on to what they see as you.

?? why?

I am aware that this makes me an asshole.

This nice guy/girl = insecure thing that Southall seems to be on about is rot. But not the asshole thing.

Stay gold, Dee. You might want to lose the shame though. Be Dee and stop apologizing for it or getting mad because people don't understand how wonderful Dee is. People are dorks; don't listen to them.

the trick is to be really easy.

To get back to Dee's initial post:

And, let's face it, "nice girls" aren't particularly popular with members of the opposite sex because they don't have anything particularly awe-inspiring about them that would make the boys stop and take notice.

Simply being nice doesn't make you bland, like the kind of sweet but boring wallflower you're referring to. From what I can tell, you're interested, and curious about, so many things that there's simply no way you should put yourself in that category. Most people don't really awe their partners or would-be partners but let their personality pique other people's interest. So, sure, simply being "adorable" is probably not what's gonna get you a lot of attention, but, just judging from your posts, you've got a hell of a lot more characteristics, that you shouldn't be shy/afraid to let out.

I had to laugh at Barima's post way above there about him trying to be a bastard, but failing due to the compulsive smiling. I can relate to this a great deal.

Also Anna mentioned that it's all relative, true I could agree this for some people, but for myself the only people who could not describe me as a 'nice guy' would be people who had met me while in a rare instance of bastardism (usually drunk).

Also, slightly off topic, I have no idea how I come across on email etc, I am a lot better at socialising IRL than on forums so I reckon to some people online I appear to be a bit ignorant but I'm not (honest).

Being labeled as 'sweet' and 'nice' does get a little grating after awhile (I know this from personal experience) but they're a damned sight better than being labeled 'bitchy' or 'awful'. Matt said it first, but I'm gonna repeat it, because he's so right that it almost hurts - Stay gold, Dee. Lose the shame. Be Dee and stop apologizing for it or getting mad because people don't understand how wonderful Dee is. People are dorks; don't listen to them.

You are a wonderful, amazing, fantastic and beautiful person in your own right. What anyone else things doesn't matter worth a damn. Just because you may not have what you want in your life right this minute doesn't mean you never will have it - everything takes its own time happening and waiting on it, god, can be so fucking frustrating, but it will happen.

Believe in yourself, sugar; I believe in you.

I'm labeled as "nice" a lot, but I suppose it kind of fits. My sister calls me a bitch, and she's known me my whole life, but I don't think facetious comments count.

I think a lot of people have already said what I might have responded to this thread. And very well at that. So I'll just add that I know a lot of nice people who get plenty of dates/are happily married, and who are quite successful career-wise.

I'd probably fall into the nice guy category, but the thing is I'm just awkward and contrary more than actually nice.

My wife gets called "sweet" a lot, because, well, she is. One time, a few months ago, she told me that she gets frustrated by it--that it seems like a boring way to be perceived, "why can't I be 'intriguing,'" etc. I told her that anybody who's ever tasted a piece of good fruit knows that there's nothing boring about sweetness.

Most importantly, this type of thinking tends to be self-defeating and often misguided. I think this might be why the conversation came around to self deprecation and complacent behavior. You don't know that people think that way about you, you only know that you think that way about yourself. And people tend to pick up on that more
than anything else.

For years in high school/early college, I kind of thought of myself as the "nice guy", beloved by my friends' girlfriends and all that. I had some success with the ladies, but I took my failures too seriously and it certainly cost me a lot of lost opportunities. But after a couple of positive relationships, and widening my social circle generally (mainly making a lot more platonic female friends), I gained self-confidence enough to think that people could consider me both nice and pretty hot too.

I still remember about five years back, one of my co-workers asked me for advice in getting some guy's attention and called me a "master flirter". I thought she was joking but I soon found out that her assessment was pretty much the consensus! I thought I was just being sweet and funny and charming... you know, myself. Actually, it came out that a lot of the women that I worked with saw me as a potential boyfriend and considered me something of a tease. I was amazed! I still tease too, but I take more chances now (I actually dated the "master flirter" woman for a couple of months) and I really haven't changed my "nice" personality much at all.

So what will probably happen is that you'll knock some guy's socks off (it's probably happened to a few readers of this board, seriously) and he'll start to tell you that you are nice and sweet AND beautiful and sexy. Hopefully then you'll start to think about yourself that way. I wouldn't worry about it too much, you're definitely a righteous woman in a lot of respects! I was a late bloomer too...in a lot of ways it's an advantage, believe me.

Exactly how many people of either gender know exactly what that is for themselves, I have to ask.

I don't mind when somebody calls me "the nice guy" (haha ok in real life not on here obv.) anymore cuz I'm not secretly hiding some other side.

However, if someone really amazing comes along, I'll take that hobo-knifing advice cause I would do anything for love...

hey I didn't say I loved gear, just that I would sleep with him.

oh man please tell me Meat Loaf was singing about being afraid to knife a hobo

I ONLY like nice girls, as I am a nice guy myself, but they have to look deadly 'n' femme-fatalesque a la Scarlett J. Rowr, mama! Well, not really, but they need to exude some sort of sexiness. Hmmm, I guess that IS what they call confidence!

I guess everyone has to have a schtick, but it seems yours is making you unhappy. Do you think your ILX persona and your life on the boards has had a negative effect in this way?

this is so OTM it hurts

I find insecurity to be a selfish and destructive trait in many situations and relations, because of these eroding qualities.

so is this (tho pointing out that insecurity often = passive aggression probably wont score you many pts with the ladies)

"nice" people are often very very immature and passive-aggressive.....filled with unresolved hate, unable to handle conflict in a constructive way, full of childish fantasies of being rescued, etc etc etc etc etc......and if they act insecure its all the more likely thats the case

that said i think dee is actually a nice person for reals (even if her politics are kinda questionable if not flat-out dogmatic = not really worthy of her bcz she's a smart person)

Dee, I've never met you, just seen your posts and a few pics. You know that you strike me as an attractive young woman, and you're certainly intelligent and interesting and likeable (it's only when you're on political matters that I ever start to lean away from that view somewhat!). I find it hard to believe that you'd find it particularly hard to interest men. I wonder if your insecurity means that you aren't quite connecting? I bring this up because I used to be like that. Back in 1978 when I was 18 I was desperately insecure (maternal conditioning being the main cause, but that's beside the point) and assumed no one would be interested in me in any sexual or romantic sense. One sexy young woman tried hard to get me, and I didn't notice. In retrospect she was pretty blatant about it, but I interpreted everything she did as being about something else (that post upthread that suggested you do somethng similar with compliments, reinterpreting them, reminds me of this), friendliness mostly. I wished someone so hot would want me, but didn't imagine at all that she did.

Then another sexy woman also went after me, also fairly blatantly - and I didn't notice. This second woman had the useful effect of making the first think she was going to lose any chance, and she just came out and said that she really wanted to go out with me and asked if I was interested, seeming as if she thought I really wasn't. I was astonished and delighted. (It was some months later that I learnt of the other woman's interest.)(And for the record, the first woman and I were together for the next 23 years.)

I apparently came over as detached and uninterested, not insecure and keen, which is what I was. I wonder if the same might happen with you? I am speculating on these lines because I can't at all see that you are not an attractive young woman with lots of very good qualities, so if you aren't appealing to men, as far as you can tell anyway, there must be some explanation. Do you think you might be seen as unapproachable or uninterested or something?

OTM. To go back to jody's post way upthread, if 'nice' is the word that immediately springs to one's mind when describing a person then that person probably does not posess (in the describer's mind, at least) other more 'flashy' traits. IOW, it's not that Sexy Girl isn't nice, but her sexiness overshadows it.

If you see yourself as nice to the exclusion of more specific traits, and see that as a bad thing, then I think Nice Girl Syndrome is just the follow-through of that particular backhand.

But has Dee been back to thread since Wednesday morning?

Thank you for all the responses and remarks, both the "hey girl, you're awesome" kind and the eye-opening, mind-expanding kind. I have been given so much to think about here and it's fantastic being able to hear different viewpoints and from people who have different thought processes than what I have. I'm especially grateful for private communications that have been beneficial and heartwarming at the same time.

I also want to address this one particular comment at the moment, FYI:

Dee, on ILX at least you totally revel in your purity! I really can't see that you can complain when people don't see you as wild or sexual or dangerous when you spend the whole time reminding people how "nice" you are! Wry comments in threads about how you never touch alcohol or cock kinda perpetuate your own chosen myth.

I wish to state that when I do the things you're calling me out for doing, I am not "revelling in" my "purity". I'm just stating truths, being open about my life at present, etc. At first the comments were to set myself apart from the rest of the crowd, but then it became an easy opportunity to poke fun at myself. Besides, being "nice" doesn't mean you abstain completely from sex or alcohol. The friend I was talking to is currently involved in a fully consummated relationship and will on occasion ingest alcoholic substances and her own complaints actually inspired this thread as she and I were finding commonalities in practically everything I brought up in the original post to this thread.

I guess everyone has to have a schtick, but it seems yours is making you unhappy. Do you think your ILX persona and your life on the boards has had a negative effect in this way?

I don't really consider what I present to this forum to be a "schtick" -- maybe it's predictably, um, predictable, but certainly not a part of some role that was or is being acted out. Also, the unhappiness I was projecting in the originating post had more of a basis in my offline world than anything online, which I didn't really think out at the time of the original post to this thread but thanks to your post I was able to finally recognize.

Since then, things you've written in your blog, and a thing or two here, lead me to believe that you're not as attached to every present aspect of your life as you at first appeared. Do you think that's a reasonable thing to say, and (if so) is it a change in you, or just a change in the way you present yourself?

It probably goes without saying that a belief in absolute permanence of all aspects of your self can feed into the "won't take compliments" thing that Tep mentioned above.

(I have had four hours sleep the last two nights - if any of this is insulting or incoherent, my apologies)

(not that confidence is easy, by any means)

(not pejorative--i'm drunk too and it's only 8pm here!)

xpost

And just so Mr/Ms Anonymous knows, I agree with much of what they said. I have pointed out the "nice guy" as an excuse for passivity connection on ilx before, and grapple with it myself quite often.

Woo! MBV Tolkien anti-sideburns FAP.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you're a dick.
-- RJG (r_gillander...), March 4th, 2004.

Wow!!!

(Anniversary revival.)

nice nice girl thread