A month ago, my girlfriend informed me that she didn't want to be "penetrated" any more

what so she's throwing in blumpkins for the bargain?

oh GOD andrew you're filthy.

(xpost)

I think it would make a difference, yes. I suppose I do feel resentful, I think it's a touch self-indulgent to severely restrict your sex life with your boyfriend for at least a month while you "talk through" some issue with a therapist. Makes me wonder what the therapist is telling her. I don't know. Maybe it's the frustration talking.

On the other hand, "nothin' but blowjobs" hardly seems like a proposition that warrants much pity.

No Mr. Mime, you didn't tell him to tell her how he's feeling. You told him to "tell her to grow up." There's no feeling there, just a hostile attack.

One thing I'd avoid doing, seriously, is putting a time limit on it. If the experiment is specifically only for a month, then no worries, but if that's her estimate, don't turn up with champagne, oysters and a studded cock ring at midnight on the 31st and expect her to be ready for you, or you'll just end up resenting her and making her feel like shit.

you're an asshole. In fact many people on this thread are acting as such. I went through the same thing with a boyfriend a few years ago. Up until then sex was very unplesant for me and I basically went along with it for his sake. I was raped as a child.

My therapist at the time suggested I take a hiatus. It lasted about six weeks. While that didn't solve all of my problems right away it was very good for me to realize that I could, and had the right, to do that. That right there was a big step for me to get over the past.

NP, perhaps you should go to a therapy session or two w/your girlfriend so you can understand her problems and she can understand how it's affecting you. Talking with her about it in a non-judgemental way is a hell of a lot better idea than asking these yahoos.

Seriously cannot get this image of Barry out of my head now. Ugggh.

also ignore Markelby, showing up with champage, oysters, balloons, streamers, a mariachi band and a studded cock rin on the 31st is a must

There's something about the way people have been approaching some of the threads on ILE over the last few days that's left a bit of a nasty taste in my mouth. There's something very bad fratboy American comedy about the whole thing at the moment.

Umm, basically Mark OTM - respectfully is the way to go about this.

Why does she need to justify it? It's her damn body and if she doesn't want to have intercourse she doesn't have to. That doesn't make her a bitch or anything. She's still trying to look after his needs in other ways. And if he can't accept her reasons or doesn't want to wait for her to sort herself then nothing's stopping him from leaving and finding some other penetration-friendly girl.

Like I said, NP needs to talk with her about this, not us.

many x-posts

no, chances are you wouldn't. It might have been fine from his end but if the gf felt this was neccesary OBVIOUSLY not all was fine from her end.

I've had bad therapy experiences too but that doesn't mean the whole idea of therapy is a wash.

Get yr head out of ass, Andrew.

It is a big issue though. I was young when I went out with her and fairly inexperienced, and the idea that i should spend my whole early 20's in celibacy working through someone else's problems (some of which she said she couldn't speak to me about, which is another terrible shutting out: you can't even help with the problem that is affecting both of you) was unappealing. Fundamentally though i believe the whole relationship suffered.

i would say, wait it out for a few months, see if you can deal with it. it could get better, it could remain the same. A few months without sex won't kill you, and you'll feel more secure over what you did in the long run...

She at least has a professional relationship with a therapist. You are asking largely anonymous people on the internet. Whose advice is likely to be more useful? Above all else, try to be understanding. Whatever else, you don't want to look back at this and realize you were an asshole.

what if her issues are bogus?

however NP your mistrust of therapists...naturally there's bad apples in every basket but I think the ratio is often exaggerated in popular culture - it's fair to say that generally speaking therapy is a good thing

You never know how another person would act/feel in a situation NP.

i think you have to approach it with the idea that they are for real, and not bogus. i think if you are thinking the issues are bogus, you are already getting off on the wrong foot. also, how exactly do you define bogus? the issues might seem bogus to some, but not to others, if they are real to her, then they are real and to be respected (and if they are bogus even to her, well then you are into other issues, i would say)

And yeah, as crispy bacon said above, it's a question of whether this is actually going to reach a point of resolution or whether it's something that's just going to go on and on. Of course I can handle a few months of no penetrative sex, if I think that at the end something's going to be resolved.

NP, if your gf is having therapy about this and is taking such drastic actions, the odds are she DOES want to be able to enjoy a full and happy sex life with you in the future. So don't lose sight of the fact that she's doing it for the two of you as an item almost as much as she's doing it for herself.

People will put themselves through 30+-year-long marriages, sacrifice their children's emotional well-being, ad infinitum just to gain a little interpersonal power. depressing yet but more common than not - esp. if the issue IS abuse, then regaining a smidgen of the power that the abuser took away by force is utterly key to feeling in control of one's life

This is why therapy is a good idea. they are there to be objective. Perhaps the two of you could see a therpaist different than her own.

JBR, I really don't understand how you think this could be bogus. Regardless of what the reason is, his GF wanting to make a drastic change in their sex life *is* an issue so therefore cannot be bogus. Obv. something's amiss.

Sam, reread the part where I said "i don't know this girl and i can't say anything for sure -- i'm only acknowledging the possibility that something else could be up."

How can you support her if she isn't able to explain a decision which has an impact on you - she just demands that you fall in line? That is using her power unfairly. And it might seem to you like you are being punished and victimised so she can regain any sense of power she may have lost. I think some talking might be helpful; I don't see hwo you can get through it if you aren't talking. Sex is deep communication, not a trade off ( 'I'll still blow you; just don't ask me why we don't fuck anymore')

jay-sus...

welcome to ilx

VDP I am not saying you are foolish or wise. Or a troll. I don't know you, so it ain't personal. Which is the point n'est ce pas?

(sorry for the derail. i'll shut up now.)

It concerns me most that she seems not to have told you what the issues are. I'm not saying that she should, but maybe it implies some lack of trust, or a lack of confidence in your being understanding and supportive - and maybe that lack is real, given that you come here to moan about her not fucking you rather than in concern for her problems. Sorry to give you a hard time, as I do know it's difficult to live with these things, but I do think you should think a little less of the fucking you are missing out on and a bit more about what problems she seems to be experiencing.

did no one read this? it doesn't sound like he's getting blowjobs and even if he is they're probably pretty low on enthusiasm.

non-penetrator i think things are probably pretty grim. w/out going into details i went thru something similar once about a decade ago and it was basically the death knell of the relationship.

thing is, between 'no penetration' and not talking to you about what's going on it sounds a lot like she doesn't want to be INTIMATE with you, full stop. to 'let you in' in any sense.

and if that's the case it doesn't really matter what you do, and how long you want to wait around depends on how you feel about her and how much time you're willing to risk and how confident you feel that she'll come around. but honestly i think that 90% of the time when someone works through major psych issues while in a relationship, it's the NEXT person who reaps the benefits......because the person they're with ends up getting beat up too much and leaves.

BUT, you've gotta talk to her. that's the most ominous sign tho, in some ways she doesn't sound like she really wants to talk to you about it. everyone's yelling at you to talk to her, but that won't be helpful if she's always evasive + hostile + passive-aggressive. 'you have the right to ask her to to engage with you in dealing with the fall out of her decision.' = completely OTM.

by the way, sure 'it's her damn body' but it's his body too! 'no sex' is a totally legit reason for leaving a relationship, certainly 'bad sex' is too and like i said i'm guessing that the sex she is giving him is half-hearted at best. i think some of the people here who are playing the 'you insensitive clod' card would SHOCKAH have a totally different reaction if NP were a woman with a bf working thru issues.

who are playing the 'you insensitive clod' card would SHOCKAH have a totally different reaction if NP were a woman with a bf working thru issues

that is such complete bullshit.

i think some of the people here who are playing the 'you insensitive clod' card

it's still complete bullshit.

It's not like she's resisting for no reason, sounds to me like she has good reasons to want a little non-penetration time.

(crosspost)

au contraire. for instance i don't think there's a chance in HELL that martin skidmore would write 'given that you come here to moan about [HIM] not fucking you rather than in concern for her problems' to a woman.

You can at least deal with just jerking it yourself, can't you? Anyway, she might be a little more anxious to be penetrated again if you backed off on ALL sexual activity with her.

...or should that go on the other thread?

Someone I dated very recently (male) wouldn't let me go down on him. He also had been sexually abused as a child. I was very disappointed as this is one of my most favorite things to do and I was sad I couldn't share it with him. But that was fine, I respected his wishes, didn't want to leave him for it. There are other things to do.

I'd hate to think that, if I was having emotional/sexual issues with someoen I thought loved me, he'd go "hey you're being selfish! What about ME?" at me insteaf of being concerned and caring.

Geez.

If you, non-p, think you have a future with this woman, you should both go to counseling together, at least a bit. Like, if you're married, that is, or plan to be married.

I understand what ask for Sam is saying, but I don't think her experience is necessarily applicable. What's especially not fair, is your girl friend's not telling you what she's really thinking. Is this a "breather" until she works through some things for a month or six, or is it a breather for years? Or, more importantly, is it a breather until she finds someone she likes better? She has to be willing to communicate and to compromise and to put herself in your position.

Her having been abused, while potentially tragic, is not a justification for playing control games with you. If that's what she's doing.

I was in a relationship like this for a number of years. We were married. We're not anymore. I was abused isn't a get out of jail free card.

also there seems to be some air of sexual entitlement in some of these posts. as in 'she's your girlfriend, she owes you.'

what a lousy way to look at sex, for both parties.

Not a control game? Maybe you've never experienced it.

Skottie, it might surprise you but my anger at my past does not fuel my present sexuality. In fact I'd wager I have some of the most uninhabited sex of anybody here. Except Martin. (pls note the humor in this statement.)

as for the boyfriend I was with during the hiatus: we went to couples therapy for awhile, we eventually married and although we did divorce later we were together for a total of nine years.

(p.s. i knew what you meant)

but seriously, of course relationships are fueled by honesty and understanding. I don't think anything I've said suggests otherwise. But sex is also an important component. To turn that off may be a need for space temporarily, or it may be a signal that the guy isn't wanted anymore on that level. Do you look forward to a lifetime of no sex together?

look why are we even discussing this? we don't know the details.
i am offended by the assholishness of the responses that say "the gf owes him sex" ooo she's just a piece of meant eh?

or "she's using abuse as an excuse" which is reprehensible to accuse someone of, especially after the orig poster says it was explained to him what was going on.

or "this is a control game" i mean can you blame a person who is already in a shitty situation any harder and for what ? BECAUSE YR SELFISH LITTLE PRICK HAS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE PERSON YOU ARE FUCKING IS INDEED A PERSON AND THERE IS MORE TO A RELATIONSHIP OR HER LIFE THAN YOUR DICK???!!!

just like the gf can refuse to have sex for whatever reason, the bf is free to leave.

There were a lot of assumptions and accusations about
-the gf's intent
-the role of a gf as a sex slave basically
-apparent belief that caring and understanding have to right to get in the way of a dick that needs vaginal pleasing.

that were really offensive.

there now appears to be concensus about counseling, but it doesn't mean that there wasn't disagreement.

(xxpost)

Skottie yr starting to sound like a crank.
xpost

Exactly.

I think EVERYONE here is perhaps putting their own "template" onto the issue (self included), hence a whole lotta yellin.

Ah, ILX.

I don't give people much advice for this reason. See the infamous LDR (or even the recent coffee house barista) thread for examples why.

I'm still reeling from this. Get me my smelling salts...

That you are suggesting that his gf may be a manipulative cooze (when none of the evidence indicates this at all) makes you the shithead plastering your shitty marriage template all over this guy's life.

Sorry.

Probably the most (and possibly the only) really OTM thing that has been stated on this thread. In more ways than Dan probably intended it.

I can see why everyone has latched onto this truism, but it isn't exactly fair. Maybe the non-penetrator just wanted to get a sense of how other people feel about his situation before talking it over with his g/f? Maybe he was confused and needed to find out if his feelings were shared by others before telling her. That's not so bad, is it?

x-post, plus, Jim OTM.

Thanks for that Orbit! I'm really amazed people can get so worked up and abusive about a situation they know little about, concerning two people they have never met... more fool me for venting on a messageboard I suppose! Still, all the comments however off the mark have certainly got me thinking so thanks for the input.

Tried to talk last night, the mood wasn't right, we watched a movie instead.

"I just can't figure it out. She's not said no sexual activity at all, just not penetrative sex. I think she's been quite hospitible considering she's trying to work through some serious issues."

In some ways, I think I'd find it psychologically easier if she said she wanted no sex at all for a while or she didn't want to see me for a while. It'd be clearer. There'd be less of the headfucking going on. I've even thought about suggesting that. But if the withdrawal from sex came from ME rather than her, I know she'd be extremely hurt, no matter how I worded it or for what reason. She has genuine problems linked to some bad sexual episodes in the past, and I respect that. But I think she (or her therapist) is trying to solve one problem by creating another one somewhere else. Anyway, no matter what I say, someone's going to think I'm an asshole, fuck it. As things stand, I can't see how we're ever going to get back to having penetrative sex in a comfortable way and it depresses me. I don't know.

So we're complete morons? Advice can be get anywhere - though of course it doesn't mean it's good advice. I think it's a starting point. It's a difficult issue to address. I can't see myself (or anyone else) talking about this with a friend/relative/family member. Like I said; it's a starting point. Of course the best solution is talking with your girlfriend and/or therapist.

There will be some good advice, there will be some immature crap, there will be a lot of people shouting so loudly about their particular issues that they are unable to see the POV of the asker.

In my experience, people who ask for advice are either trying to take the temperature of other people's experience to gague where they stand, or else they have already figured out their own answer, and they just want someone to confirm it. It's not "fair" that people get either frat-boy stupid, or on the other hand, totally judgmental, in response, but that is what happens on ILX.

It's not necessarily *bad* to ask for advice. You just have to accept that it may or may not be useful, and will say more about the person offering the advice than about their own situation.

(To NP: Sorry, I don't have any useful advice to give you on the situation, or at least, none that I think you would find useful, as I share your disdain for therapy in general.)

i'm dumping this thread

surely sex is part of complex webbbb of things that make up a relationship. the notable thing here is rather making sex not part of the relationship, thereby changing the whole tenor.

A lot of people are jumping to the conclusion that this guy is mad just cause he "isn't getting any". When what strikes me again and again about his complaints is the fact that his girlfriend and an outside person have made a UNILATERAL DECISION about a very important aspect of the relationship.

This, to me, is a danger sign. Decisions involving both partners need to be discussed by both partners. Whether it's penetrative sex or who washes the dishes or who pays the phone bill.

Orbit, I have tried to talk things through. If it only if it were as easy as that.

Strangely enough, my sexual life is very important to me, and I make no apologies for that. On the other hand, what is most getting to me about this situation is the headfuckness of it all.

Tried to talk last night, the mood wasn't right, we watched a movie instead.

There's never a "right time" to discuss relationship issues. It's easier to get frustrated, or let it build up until it reaches a boiling point and have an argument. Communication needs to happen, and it isn't happening.

I can't help resenting the abrupt way went about things with respect to me. My resentment may or may not be misplaced, but it's an emotional response so it's hard to reason my way out of it.

Right, I have to work, I will check back at the end of the day, thanks for all your responses.

musical bear is well otm upthread - you're getting regular blowjobs and you're complaining?!???!??!?!?!

I am from Glasgow!

Do you know what kind of therapist your girlfriend is speaking to? Maybe you could have a chat with this person on your own if your GF is too wound up to go with you.

Among my friends about 10 years ago there was a serious Dworkinist/rad fem non-pen vibe going around; lots of people talked quite openly about a non-penetrative sexual relationship with their opposite-sex SO.

I am not a person who endorses 'therapy' as such but it is good to talk.

(Dworkin is wrong mind)

RT, once had weird sub-Reynolds chat with one K. Hersh about the mechanics of womb-man and biologically determined reasons the XX chromo set keeps things 'inside'. Her ideas, not mine.

This is really not the kind of digressin I wanted on this thread, but whatever.

There is a decision which needs to be taken by the *two* people in the relationship. Not by one person and their therapist,

Kate, I have to disagree with you here. Sex is a personal thing that is shared with someone else by choice. It is her decision and hers alone whether not she chooses to share her body with him. Like I've said over and over on this thread, he is equally free to leave if her decisions do not meet his needs. (and I'm using "he" and "she" in general terms here, not specifically about NP and his gf)

As for non-penetrator, I think he has a point that even if his gf needs to spend time not having non-penetrative sex, the best way would have been for them to discuss it first, and not the gf to present him with a fait accompli. Give her the time she needs, but also make it clear to her that she could have been a little bit more considerate about the way she laid down the law.

(xpost)

I think he has a point that even if his gf needs to spend time not having non-penetrative sex, the best way would have been for them to discuss it first, and not the gf to present him with a fait accompli. Give her the time she needs, but also make it clear to her that she could have been a little bit more considerate about the way she laid down the law.

Every person has the right to control over their body, but issues which *affect* both parties in a relationship need to be discussed and consented to by both parties. If one person needs to reassert control over their life and their body, that's fine. But they have no right to do it at the expense of denying their partner control.

That's replacing one set of problems with another, which is what NP is ultimately complaining about.

control over what? her? it doesn't seem like he's lost any control over himself and his actions here. In a relationship the people are still individuals.

I think bringing 'control" and 'power' into this discussion is folly.

Thank you, Kate.

how so? also, why are you speaking in brackets.

If you're so big on 'empathy' maybe you ought to think harder about why people reacted to NP as strongly as they did.

I mean, you're making a plea for mutual understanding, but then you clearly come down harder on one side.

As far as feeling 'rejected' - if this person has trauma issues, it's not about 'rejection'.

well, think of it this way: we don't have any "right" to privacy, in a legal sense. There's nothing in the Constitution. but privacy is a need. Similarly, there are no documented, agreed upon, or enforceable legal rights when it comes to sex. I'm a little out of my depth here talking about the law, but my point is sex = old, rights = not that old. so why do we talk about it the way we do?

there are fundamental rights every human being (or creature for that matter) is entitled to.

people are making arguments about what our rights are: "she has the right to x," "noone has the right to do x." in a contested situation, compounded with our lack of knowledge of what's really happening in this specific case, it's the first thing we reach for? huh this all seems pretty obvious to me now, forget it

xpost: but they don't issue from "the creator," they are things which have been fought for and, essentially, what we have allowed each other. nothing is intrinsic.

Actually, they kind of were.

so nobody outside of democracies has any fundamental human rights?

am i nuts or something?

I see those things as fundamental human desires but not fundamental human rights because there isn't any such thing as a fundamental human right. Rights are the by-product of society; outside the context of society, no one can reasonably expect to have the right to anything.

(sorry, i'm getting a little lost here, i've had nothing but caffeine yet today)

this is so fucking OTM it hurts. so is this:

his girlfriend and an outside person have made a UNILATERAL DECISION about a very important aspect of the relationship. This, to me, is a danger sign.

this thread makes me violently angry. it's like, do people just not understand that someone can be both an abuse victim and behave in a totally one-sided, power-game way? like skottie said "I was abused isn't a get out of jail free card."

there are loads of people here who don't give a FUCK about NP's feelings, who think that if he feels anything but cup-runneth-over compassion that he's an asshole. well, fuck you: he has every right to feel resentful, angry, pissed off, and whatever else. that doesn't mean they're necessarily USEFUL feelings, but to tell him that he's supposed to think of nothing but his girlfriend's welfare is typical "men should be grateful if they get ANY sex" bullshit.

i wish some posters would just come out and admit "i think that in sex, women should have all the control and dictate all the terms, since if men have any control that's just a milder form of rape." since it seems to be their agenda anywhere.

It's threads like these that make me wish I was a lesbian.

yeah, REAL surprise there alex in sf......tell me, do you think women are better than men? because that's the vibe that every post i've ever read of yours exudes.

also: DO YOU LOVE THIS WOMAN? you still haven't answered that.

Please show us where anyone said the things you claim they said.

Moreover, I haven't seen any evidence that NP feels the way you says he has the 'right' to feel. But you have the right to feel 'violently angry' just as many of us have the 'right' to run like hell away from someone who feels that way.

If you're so big on 'empathy' maybe you ought to think harder about why people reacted to NP as strongly as they did.

I mean, you're making a plea for mutual understanding, but then you clearly come down harder on one side.

i mean, you're dead wrong: he didn't come down harder on one side, it simply isn't there in his post. he said flat out "I wish everyone would have a wee bit more empathy for people (genders) other than their own." your own prejudices are right there in living color as far as i can tell.

And no, your observations are not objective.

You're one of those resentful anti-feminists who goes looking for 'prejudice' where it isn't.

i wish some posters would just come out and admit "i think that in sex, women should have all the control and dictate all the terms, since if men have any control that's just a milder form of rape." since it seems to be their agenda anywhere.

Historian, stick a potato in yr mouth and get skull-fucked.

but the fact that alex in sf, orbit, et al. won't even consider that there might be power games or something else dysfunctional going on says to me that they're identifying only with her and have no real interest in NP's well-being, other than to blame him for the Awful, Original Sin of wanting sex even when his gf doesn't and being frustrated by that, and by the fact that the rules have changed without him being a part of the discussion.

xpost samantha: yay, violence! the best way to handle an opinion you don't agree with. but wait, you're a woman, i thought only men were violent?

well like with many other things you've said today, you are wrong. I'm one violent motherfucker. Especially when I get tired of listening to dumbasses.

MB, I don't know really. I just like the way it sounds. :)

this is where you err, in that nobody told him how he ought to feel - people offered their opinions on how he might behave, and you didn't like it because of some pre-existing ideas you have about sexual politics

IT'S NOT ABOUT "HIS WANG" IT'S ABOUT THE FACT THAT MOST GUYS FEEL MOST LOVED WHEN A WOMAN IS WILLINGLY HAVING SEX WITH THEM!!!!

maybe it wouldn't be that way if things were different, but they're not, and for most guys, if you withhold sex, it feels like you're withholding love

and half-hearted mutual masturbation, and thinking to yourself "gee i must be ever so supportive", doesn't change that feeling

it fucking HURTS, don't you people get it? it's not "i want to come" it's "why does it feel like she doesn't love me anymore?"

(yes i have baggage, so what. hey, at least i admit it!)

xpost: "I would kill my first born son for some mutual masturbation right about now. you can't have sex for at least one month? boo-hoo." sure sounds like a version of "dude you should be grateful for what you have" to me

and that's wrong because?

(Which, when you get past the arguing, is almost everyone, ha)

would you EVER say "dude you should be grateful for what you have" to a woman? would orbit? would alex in sf?

this notion that men specifically should be "grateful" for sex is a fucking insidious one, and it's from that that 95% of the sex wars come

if NP's girlfriend said "look i can't do penetration right now and if you want to find a fuckbuddy, i understand" it would be totally different

(i think it'd destroy their relationship, but at least it'd make a pretense of acting like his needs are important too, whether or not he got abused when he was a kid)

once again dan perry proves himself probably the smartest and most trustworthy ilxor. (no, i'm not kidding.)

Seconded. Definitely top of the heap.

I'll second that Yikes!

I absolutely would. what the hell difference does gender make? Being grateful for the good things one does have in life is a wonderful trait that prevents you from being an asshole.

You should look it into Historian.

As far as feeling 'rejected' - if this person has trauma issues, it's not about 'rejection'.

Your assumption that by thinking harder I will naturally agree with you is presumptuous.

Why am I on one 'side'? Who picked sides when I was out and to which team was I assigned? I don't think this is a zero-sum game with only one happy outcome. NP feels hurt and confused and he reached out and I, for one, as easy as it might be, do not see the sport in swatting him down. If you feel he's being insensitive, working on a double standard, and behaving like a cad, say so. Please don't attack me when, in good faith, I'm only trying to convey my admittedly un-convincing and lame thinking on the matter.

OTM, Sam.

but this thread basically recapitulates the gender divide. i mean, unless i live on a completely different planet than you do, my impression is that sex is the #1 point of contention between men and women, and that in the real world, women are the ones who have most of the control over when, where, and how consensual sex happens.

this inspires a considerable amount of resentment among many men. (it doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong, it just happens.) and resentment is pretty much the opposite of gratitude. you can watch, in teenage boys who can't get laid for whatever reason (no money/not attractive/not athletic), how over the years, if they don't find someone who loves them and who's willing to be sexually intimate with them without power games, hope turns to disappointment, then to resentment and bitterness.

also, going way back, the approach that teeny and her husband used is probably the best one, and the one i'd recommend if (a) np's girlfriend is acting in good faith and (b) they love each other but (c) she'll need time to work through stuff.

I, for one, as easy as it might be, do not see the sport in swatting him down

the sport is that a bunch of people get to feel sanctimonious and self-satisfied, which is basically ilx in a nutshell.

Without knowing her, I am not prepared to say much about whether it's self-indulgent, though why her giving up some form of sex would be self-inudlgent is hard for me to understand. Still NP and not you nor me is her mate. I'm prepared, if only to be polite, to think he may know more about the situation than us, if only just. I do understand that people get upset. And please believe me, I try, consciously try, to understand why. I just don't always agree. Notice that in our excitement, men & women are both mad that the others don't get 'it'.

And I personally find it difficult to 'argue' with someone who has an obvious resentment toward women, what with all the power they have.

(aka: "oh, kennedy buying an election, that was OK because he's one of us working-class salt of the earth catholics. but when george w. bush does it, that's the root of all evil!")

(note, i prefer kennedy to nixon and strongly prefer gore/kerry to bush, but i abhor people who pick tribalism over truthfulness)

xpost: haha so should the ilx men have a hard time arguing with certain ilx members [i'm leaving their names out because i don't want to call them out, not as a rhetorical trick] who have an open and admitted resentment towards men? or is it only ok to hate men, but not women?

If I wanted to stoop to his level, I'd caricature his views as 'anyone who doesn't agree with me is a man-hater'. Oh, wait....

i actually don't have a problem with this: i'm more than willing to be called on my bullshit if other people get called on theirs. maybe if that happens, something resembling the truth will come out of all this, instead of "aww, man, leave her if she won't put out" vs. "your emotions don't matter, be grateful for what you have, and any intuition that her relationship with her therapist MIGHT be less than completely healthy is obviously bullshit since you just want to get laid"

xpost: musical bear it's possible! but i'm also kinda overstating my point of view on purpose because the other side is so strident

but if we said 'wow, sucks to be her, sorry you're going through that, but hey, it could be for the good of the relationship to let her work through her problems', then we're still insensitive fucks for not considering his wang?

no, that'd be ok, IF we also said 'and it's ok if you feel resentful, and it IS possible that there might be some power stuff going on (but you might want to give her the benefit of the doubt), and if you decide to leave that doesn't make you an awful person, though a month feels like too short a time yet to bail and we don't know enough about the situation to say. but also it's not your responsibility to be the knight in shining armor of someone who makes unilateral decisions like this and won't talk to you about what's going on, both of which are really bad signs. and in all honesty, a lot of the time when things like this happen, things get to be too much of a mess for the relationship to ever recover, so it makes sense that you're feeling antsy. but wait a bit yet.'

xpost: when people say 'this makes me wish i was a lesbian' (loudon wainwright iii to thread), if you claim that the unspoken second half of that sentence isn't 'because i feel like men are total pieces of shit and i hate them', you're full of crap.

I'm prepared, if only to be polite, to think he may know more about the situation than us, if only just.

perhaps for you. that hasn't influenced my thinking in the slightest. I think your own problems with gender issues is coloring your readings of other people here.

fwiw, i never swatted down NP. some other posters here, yes, but not the original poster.

xpost: when people say 'this makes me wish i was a lesbian' (loudon wainwright iii to thread), if you claim that the unspoken second half of that sentence isn't 'because i feel like men are total pieces of shit and i hate them', you're full of crap.

historian you should really stop assuming what other people think. It's not cricket, mate.

Historian, dude, what's with all the anger, man? You're certainly not going to peruade anyone when you come across all intense and scary. People are full of it sometimes. You, me the others=people. Sometimes we're full of it. That's why we have humor and champagne, man.

How come you liked my urbane humor better than my retarded joke about being self-satisfied?

NOT WORK SAFE

i feel that way, sure, but what gets me livid is when people seem far more sensitive to the humanity of female posters than of male posters. without getting into details (yet!) i honestly think people here (and in most western cultures) tend to care more about the well-being of women than of men. and it makes me feel like shit whenever i encounter evidence of it.

i didn't see the 'self-indulgent' thing when i first posted, that's probably np's nadir (though i bet it sounds worse than he meant it to). also i forgot about crispy bacon's post, which is pretty sane.

dan i think i don't agree. and even so when people say 'i wish i was a lesbian' i think the effect on a lot of guys will be that they hear 'fuck you, and fuck you for being male. i wish i never had to deal with you.' how do women feel about 'i wish i were gay/a gay man, because i can't stand women and their [fill in the blank]'? probably sounds a little misogynist to most ears.

boy all the posters talking about how awful this thread is are REALLY useful. making the world a better place, one snarky useless shaming comment at a time.

sorry it's a source of annoyance to me that when threads get contentious everybody gets all doomsayin'

x-post - historian, have you studied, like, history? your "people care more about women!" thing is just woefully WRONG

BUT THAT'S THE POINT, ie "You are a worthless, horrifying example of the human male and I wish that I was attracted to something that didn't share genitalia with you."

???

Without saying anything else at all about anything, I agree with this.

Oh dear god I didn't realize you lived here. Please do leave. I like my state.

btw, I under a different identity here. I change my name name every few months for variety but my email and login name are always the same.

-- VengaDan Perry

I don't agree with historian about the meaning of "I wish I were a lesbian," but I'm not sure that Dan's take on it is correct either, considering that many if not all of the men saying it are already attracted to women...

I think it's actually saying "I wish I were a lesbian so I could continue to be attracted to women but didn't have to be associated with you by being male myself." And that certainly doesn't imply that women (or men) are superior. It's similar to a general "I'm embarrassed to be from the same ______ as that knucklehead." In this case the blank is filled in with "gender."

HAHA!

clearly today's extra xanax is affecting me. I meant "I never post", dugh.

As if that's a surprise? As we women are (usually) the ones being penetrated, we should have the ability to say whether or not we want to be. However, unless Webster's Dictionary has completely changed meaning, both partners have to agree before the sex starts, so it isn't like men have no say whatsoever. As others have said, who knows whether she may be dealing with something NP might have no clue about? Besides, NP appears more sensitive if he shows that he is willing to wait a while for her to be ready.

Yeah, I know. It's just I had to represent for the hetero males who sometimes wish they were lesbians.

Is my girlfriend gonna be horrified to learn this. Wait no she isn't, I think she suspected it all along. ;)

Well in that case I stand by comments even more.

Additionally, we must get to the bottom of the confusion about Alex in SF.

At least, she has a man with style, and a neverending supply of gel.

Also one who leaves copies of Inches around the house, too.

And since we all came from a woman
Got our name from a woman and our game from a woman
I wonder why we take from our women
Why we rape our women, do we hate our women?
I think it's time to kill for our women
Time to heal our women, be real to our women

Time to put the toilet seat down for our women

And Alex, sure it's her body, but it's both of their relationship, you know? I don't think there was ever any question whether NP was going to physically force himself on her, but he does have the ability to leave if he wants to, and I think that would be an okay thing for him to do.

True. I'm not decrying his right to walk away, but it certainly sounds like her problem is a sizable one, and if he sincerely cares about her, he should at least bear with her and see if they can work something out. Which is more important? Her well-being or sexual gratification?

Anyway, DanI - yes it *is* stereotypically manipulative. It's a stereotype that women have to put up with and are unfairly accused of, it's scary to see so many people assuming that NPs girlfriend is.

I can empathise with both but am probably projecting my own past into their present. So, as I know so little about their situation, waves of human sympathy and wishes for a loving future and an open communication platform are all I can offer. Again, good luck.

And if the love to go through this isn't there, then being honest and saying so is no bad thing either. Walking away having said that you respect what she's trying to heal, but you're not destined to be the one the one who's going to be there whilst she deals with the issue - is fairer than saying you'll be there, realising you can't hack it and bolting.

Long post. X post a bit. Sorry. BK

bK and Alex very right as well.

because there is no such thing as repressed sexual issues. Like this stuff was just hiding out in her brain and decided to surface now?

You've GOT to be fucking kidding me. . .

I think this is why so many people have screwy relationships, because they just dont get this.

I havent read half this thread BTW, because it's a mess.

(I am going to quote the whole of "the occasional flicker" by Dexys Midnight Runners i think. I've put in three quotes in the last 2 days...)

XPosssssst

And no I'm not kidding about the repression thing. I could maybe understand if she had been affected since whatever mysterious event occured, but penetration fear developing out of nowhere? Sounds like amateur hour. It seems far more likely that something else is going on.
Frankly most therapists suck, and I think in many cases (like this) they work by throwing a person's life into arbitrary emotional turmoil so that when it eventually subsides they can claim therapeutic success.

watch those stereotypes buddy. Ninety percent of the time they're completely full of shit.

, but penetration fear developing out of nowhere? Sounds like amateur hour.

Indulge me for a moment:

Despite acknowledging something painful and thinking you're over it the human mind is quite a bugbear. It could be a certain light in the room, a smell, something said during sex, anything that could trigger a memory best forgotten.

Survivors of abuse often manage to survive by doing their best to forget the details of the horrible things that happened to them.

It's completely feasible that someone might have always felt off and wrong about sex but it took them quite awhile to wake up to the reason why.

Guess what? I only like having sex about once a month. I dont know why this is. It isnt fear, I love sex with my b/f. I just dont feel like it very often. Am I trying to manipulate him? Hell no. Do I feel a bit bad it isnt more often? HELL YES!

Does my b/f understand and love me nontheless? OF COURSE HE BLOODY DOES.

xpost Robbie: certainly that would be a good thing yeah! And I am envious of any couple who have it.

I still win in the coveted "recipient of ad hominem attack" category.
.
.
.
Which was particularly painful given
1) I thought my comments were reasonable and measured even if debatable
2) My marriage was shitty
3) It was a real experience--we don't even know if the original post is real or not
4) All I was saying is get counseling. Decide what your commitment to this person is. If she's going to come through this in a few weeks or months, of course you can hold out until she's ready. If it's years, you may not find that worth it. I'm now waiting for sam and kerry's post "so what if she doesn't want sex for five years. He should just deal with it. It's her body."
5) Abuse is terrible, if for no other reason than it doesn't hurt just the original victim, but many others as well. But an abused person can also, and often is, an abuser.

This is an interesting thread.

perhaps....

hadn't thought of it that way....

xpostx2

(I mean reasonably coinciding libidos, trayce)

No, you aren't, Trayce. You're just a gal that knows what she wants....and when she doesn't want to indulge. The fact you've got such a wise and accepting bf is a cred to both of you.

(If you're a freak, then the posse is much bigger than you realise.)

this is when jon will post something "humorous" in all caps.

Skottie you must've not read ANY of my posts then since I said repeatedly someone has the right to leave a relationship that's not meeting their needs. I never said NP had to stay with his girlfriend.

damn there are a lot of assholes around here. . .

Sounds like you've already made your mind up mate. You're not obliged to stick around, selfish as it might seem. If you're not up to going the distance then best to get out of it. Funnily enough I've been in pretty similar situations twice. First time I couldn't hack it (at the time i had not worked through some abuse-related problems of my own), and second time I could, and we're still together (2 years now).

The hysteria from Sam, Kerry and Historian has been priceless btw.

Dan your "there's no such thing as repression"/"therapists are bullshit" thing - could you cite the studies that yielded this information? I hope it's not personal/anecdotal, since everybody knows that it's impossible, not to say foolish, to form broad, sweeping conclusions based entirely on personal/anecdotal evidence.

i mean what you expect, what you feel entitled to, what is and isn't a deal-breaker, what you can give in on and why -- the negotiation of these things is pretty much the entirety of a "relationship" as such!

grow some balls and don't hide behind an 'anon' posting, dipshit.

I love my girlfriend. For those who asked for a bit of background, here it is. We started going out 9 months ago. We got on fabulously, we shared a lot of interests, we liked each other's friends, we both liked and loved each other, we had a sex life that I found fulfilling (and I hope she did too, now I'm not so sure), basically things clicked. Then about 6 months ago she started getting really depressed - the trigger was her losing her job. I hope I was supportive through all this - I think I was but I would say that, wouldn't I. Eventually she decided to see a therapist. I think that lifted her depression somewhat and she seemed better. At some point, she told me she thought her underlying problems were to do with some bad sexual experiences when she was very young, sex with a much older guy that was technically consensual but coercive. But she hasn't really gone into details about it and I haven't pressed her. Anyway, I thought things were getting better, and I hope I was being understanding. Then a month ago, she came home from her therapist's appointment and without any kind of build-up just out of the blue said she didn't want to have penetrative sex with me any more, that it was to do with the sexual problems she was working through. I suspect her therapist told her that this would be a good idea, but I haven't directly asked her, partly because I know she'd react badly to my saying that (that it wasn't her idea), partly because of a tacit agreement that what goes on between her and her therapist is her business.

Since then, we've had sex, but not very often. It's been mutual masturbation, maybe she's had oral sex with me once or twice as well. I think I understand her need to work through her sexual problems. I also feel hurt and rejected. For all you people who have said: "at least you're still getting some kind of sex, you should be grateful", all I can say is that I still feel hurt and rejected, it's stronger than me. Sometimes I feel a bit of a pawn in her psychological game of trying to get over some abuse that had nothing to do with me. This may be a very selfish feeling, but I have it nonetheless.

Thanks again for all your replies.

btw, what you're frightened of - the destructive version of talking - is more likely if you think of talking with her about this problem as you simply 'confronting her with your feelings'.

While I do think that she has the right to do whatever she wants with her body, and you are not entitled to use it as you see fit, I do think her coming home without warning and declaring a new state of affairs in your mutual sex life without discussing it with you first is totally unfair.

It's one thing for her to be depressed over losing her job. it's another for her to decide that the reason she's been depressed lately is because of some underlying sexual issues because she regrets having sex with an older guy ten years ago, or whatever her situation here is. If her relationship with this guy was consensual, then that is the end of it. She needs to deal with the fact she made a mistake and move on, not blow the whole thing into a massive sexual dysfunction and punish you in the process.

Somehow I get the feeling that if she came home and said, "We have to talk, I made a lot of mistakes in the past and I need to work through them, my therapist suggested laying off penetrative sex for awhile, would that be okay with you?" this would be a completely different thread.

This kind of issue is based on trust and it seems she doesn't trust you because of what someone else did. I would think the next step would be, as she is working through these issues, that she would gradually -- as part of the process -- work penetrative sex back into your sex life.

Unless of course this is all an elaborate way of saying she doesn't like it and doesn't want to do it anymore.

Anyway, it sounds like she has a whole magazine rack full of issues and if you decided not to hang around while she worked through them, that doesn't make you a bad person. (Especially since there's no guarantee that once she works through them all that she'll even want you around then.)

And how that might tie in with not wanting to be fucked physically.

A thought. And I can't possibly know. Anyway, NP, have you thought of writing her a letter, about how you love her and how you fell in love and how you feel now? Just your feelings, not ' I hate it when you do this' accusations , more ' I feel xyz {his emotions} about xyz [ whatever situation}' .

If it's hard to talk it might be easier that way. (Even if it is a case of letting her know how you feel before you walk away.) It might start the communication and dialogue more compfotably than a 'we...need...to...talk...urrgh...' heavy conversational-broacher

I'll shut up now.

I agree. Sam had the guts to share her experiences and gets called 'hysterical' for it. anon is a coward and an insensitive creep to boot.

It's very symbolic, innit. She's probably on the defensive in general, so I wouldn't be surprised by this at all.

Then I guess this means that 99.9 percent of ILX are ball-less dipshits, aren't they?

thank you too NP for sharing more information.

You're feelings and are understanable and with the more info you gave us it does seem like you are trying to find a good solution to this, moreso than many posts here have given you credit for.

Obviously people here have turned the discussion into something larger since we don't know the two of you and really have no place speaking directly to you and advising you.

the only other opinion I would offer is that maybe you should try not to think of yourself as a pawn. Especially when you try to get the discussion going. Feeling that way might make you be ready to act defensivley instead of objectively (as is possible in this situation.)

Whatever happens, good luck. Relationships are tough no matter what's going on.

Not that an idiot like Dan I needs much refuting, but I'll say that the woman I was with definitely experienced repressed sexual trauma coming back many years later. She had been abused by her stepfather in her youth, virtually childhood really, for some time. She had repressed this for a very long time - nearly twenty years. She had never understood why some sexual and similar intimacies made her recoil and react very negatively, until the memories started coming back. It was horrible enough at second hand, and I can barely imagine what she was going through - but I could see the effects on her. I have exactly zero doubt about her honesty in this. It took time before she sorted out her thoughts and memories, and she didn't always find it easy to tell me about it (though she did eventually) and she saw a therapist regularly for a couple of years, which did seem to help her. I was deeply in love with her, and although I could point out that I suffered some sexual deprivation because of this, that was a small price to pay for what she was going through, and I did my best to be supportive and patient - I don't know how good that best was.

I'm not going to project all of that onto the relationship that this thread is about, as clearly everyone is different; but given that I have no reason to think this woman is lying about having problems, and given that I see no sign of her using any of this in some kind of power game, I am inclined to think that she probably really does have some problems and is trying to work through them with her therapist. I've met several therapists over the years, and didn't think any were bad people, but I'm damn sure some were terrible therapists, and some were good ones. I hope hers is a good one, but I have no way of guessing, and I'm not going to assume the person is a charlatan or trying to make things worse.

Finally, I may have been a bit harsh on NP earlier. I would wish that you could think a little more about her, but I do understand why you are upset. I hope you do manage to talk to her and that it is productive for both of you.

I interpret "repression" as being aware of something traumatic that happened, but never properly/completely coping with it.

Well that's what I thought too, but that's clearly what Martin was talking about.

Hi.

As my post refererred to my girlfriend and ex-girlfriend, I decided not to use my real name. I've not even made THIS alias an uncrackable code, but as I know some ILXors in real life, I felt that I would feel more comfortable speaking about the issues of myself and other people close to me, if my ILX name (which, incidentally, IS my real name) was not made too obvious.

I'll bite my tongue with the rest of my thoughts, believe me.

As a side note, I discussed this thread with my girlfriend today (she was drugged and gang-raped at 14) and she thinks NP's girlfriend is being ridiculous.

Personally, I believe that everyone's experience of pain is relative, and just because one incident may SEEM to be much worse than another, that doesn't mean it is for the people involved.

Now stop being such an asshole before I get pissed off.

Thanks.

your choice to include personal attacks in your posting is what caused my response, asshole.

Wowza, she's a burgeoning fountain of sympathy, ain't she?

Alex - don't badmouth my girlfriend, k? I'm not going to make huge generalisations here, but the people I know who have had REALLY bad times tend to be fairly level-headed, and the people I know who have had *comparitively* less hard experiences tend to make the biggest deal out of it. It's just my own experience. And no it isn't particularly sensitive of my girlf, but try and see it from her perspective.

So I should be sensitive to the insensitivity of your girlfriend?

Everyone reacts to traumatic experiences differently. How can you expect people to see things from your girlfriend's perspective when you're not willing to do that for NP's girlfriend?

I do enjoy throwing around "asshole" these days though so don't take it personally.

Me, earlier: "Personally, I believe that everyone's experience of pain is relative, and just because one incident may SEEM to be much worse than another, that doesn't mean it is for the people involved. "

Goodnight Vienna.

Apologies again, Sam, I WAS referring to the back-n-forth and it was not a personal attack (well I suppose using your name made it kinda personal, but I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know what I mean).

"Since then, only oral sex and handjobs."