london town

Worst = South of Oxford Street, West of Marble Arch, the whole horrible Crouch End-Hampstead-Highgate fiasco

Not really London at all, but horrible anyway = south of the river

Favourite: Southgate, aforementioned C.End, still have great affection for Wood Green, Notting Hill Gate/Portobello, Hyde Park and St James' Park, and, um, 'NoHo' (sorry)

Least Favourite: Clapham, definitely. Sutton is officially part of London now and that place is a fucking PIT.

It is sickeningly full of three wheeler buggies and smug boho couples. But is not like Highgate and Hampstead and resents being lumped in the same category.

Best areas of London: Top Shop Oxford Circus; Brixton; the pub Worst area of London: Willesden is quite horrible.

If in general, get back to work slacker!

It's a good thing I never watch any television.

And fabulous people of my acquaintance even live in Peckham, Penge and [!ack!] Fulham.

I didn't say it was "like" the Evil "H" twin-zone. It isn't. However it is next to them, and that will do.

Peckham is worst cos it is so deprived and the sort of place where 10 year old kids bleed to death in broad daylight.

Highgate is worst cos it is so lacking in diversity and is a twee middle-class, young family-ridden so-called village. (I am of course very very middle class but I don't have a young family and if I did I would not spend my time hanging round to Pizza Express in a pashmina)

I quite like Angel(the place not the TV programme).

Never had a problem with sarfoftheriver either - I lived in New Cross for three happy years when I was at Goldsmiths, and I like Lewisham, Catford, Brockley, Deptford (fun city!) and Greenwich as well. It's the south-east suburbs which are truly horrendous - Eltham, Bexleyheath, Chislehurst, Mottingham, Sidcup, Welling etc. etc.

Worst bit: HOXTON. Nuff said. You could basically peel all of Old Street off the map and the city would be a better place. Except, well, we'd have to find another rehearsal studio, and you know, what are Sunday afternoons without finding that Stereolab have taken all the comfy couches in the lounge?

Ugh. Don't tell me bad things about the burro of Wandsworth, I mean, honestly... I've just moved to Tooting and all. Sigh. Take me back to NW6!!!

That's my 'patch' too, except my epicentre is Manor House/Harringay. I also have commitments in Hackney. And the Victoria Line carries me daily in and out of Vauxhall. I think you can grow to love anywhere.

View from top of building I live in (of all of London in every direction Xcept Camden- Hampstead cuz of some tall trees hurrah!!) = better...

I haven't lived in London since I was a baby (which was also, until Dorset South went Labour last week, the only time I'd lived in a non- Tory constituency), but I spend enough time there to answer this thread. The part of London where I've had the best time is the south- east axis mentioned by Stevie, which seems incredibly *human* and good-natured and sympathetic (but still uniquely urban if anyone understands this ... probably not). I like Soho, and what I've seen of Hoxton, and even some of the outer suburbs like Kew and Richmond Park. Like David I think I could love just about anywhere.

My least favourite part of London is probably the morass of tourist- aimed stalls and the like in Leicester Square (though this is probably only because I do a lot of research in Westminster library and habitually walk across the square from the tube station to get there).

Worst = Romford, Camden (except if you're 15).

Also, wouldn't the Thames be running through the lowest bit?

Is this what you mean? (I feel like the Pinefox...)

Yes, but Springfield Park and Walthamstow Marsh are even nicer.

Anywhere that has more restaurants than proper shops, is truly a place to behold. Of course Crouch End is the best place in London.

The New River as well down Green Lanes is nice. Indeed Green Lanes and - Harringey is a lovely neck of the woods. Especially if you like kebabs.

On the subject of the Thames-side, it's great that so many more sections are being opened up to the pedestrian, but an unfortunate by- product of this is a sense of sanitisaton and blandness - endless coffee bars and mooching tourists (eg around the Oxo Building or Hays Galleria). One of the few stretches that currently (but not for long) remains unfrequented and pleasantly decaying is that between Vauxhall Bridge and Battersea Power Station. The waste processing plant at Cringle Street (where rubbish is loaded onto large barges) is wonderful.

Of course another unfavourite part of London (but more for the connotations of greed and each-man-for-himself than the actual architecture, which is less objectionable than it might be) is the Docklands. I remember travelling on the Light Railway in 1991, in the depths of recession, and never have I been through such a "three years ago but it may as well be a lifetime" experience. I'll shut up now ...

There are some long-term renovations going on which mean that scaffolding and tarpaulins and such like block out the view across the Thames for large sections. It's not a permanent change just interminable repairs.

However, aren't they planning a *long-term* redevelopment with a wider / covered footpath or something?

Just found my copy of the 1974 Puffin Annual which has Jill Paton Walsh standing on Hungerford Bridge: her favourite place in London, as it turns out. In the same book, there's a picture of the godlike Peter Dickinson walking down Hammersmith Bridge, which apparently appeared in the original book of "The Devil's Children". I've never been there, and I'm not even sure whether the old bridge is still open, but that fact alone makes me want to.

I think they are expanding the bridge on the other side of the railway tracks but I could be wrong...

I don't think I've *ever* crossed Hammersmith Bridge. Albert Bridge is quaint with its "marching troops must break step when crossing the bridge" notice.

In "The Devil's Children", by all accounts, Nicky Gore is looking down from the bridge wondering whether she could escape to France immediately before she encounters the Sikhs who have escaped the new superstition of technology. In the TV series of The Changes the equivalent moment is Nicky looking out over a completely deserted part of, IIRC, the centre of Bristol ...

And on that note... may I ask people what they think are the best books which use the City of London itself as a character? One of my friends has been at me forever to read "Neverwhere" for precisely that reason. Can anyone else think of others?

Hammersmith Bridge was moved, and now spans the Farringdon Thames-diversion river-feed, linking the Hatton Garden tourist village to the Old Street bijou Poundsbury -style New Homes for Notting Hill asylum-camp displacees scheme. Don't you WATCH the news? (Inf. courtesy Radio Free Haggerston)

Avoid Neverwhere like the plague - it is piss poor Lenny Henry sponsored Book of the Film type nonsense. I am always wary when books are described as having "Places as characters". Characters go to places, they do stuff in places. That is what places are for. Sure the Laundromat might be the kind of place where you tend to do washing (Ally excepted) but it does not have the character of a washerwoman.

Albeit coming from someone who only ever writes stuff set in London and cannot for the life of me ever genuinely represent it.

I will leave you to decide what effect I have had on my credibility with my admission that I still occasionally watch CFF films (aesthetic defence = everything Mark said over on ILM about what Britain *looked like* then).

I used to watch CFF films a lot on both the BBC and ITV in the late 80s, the last period when they were shown on terrestrial TV, and they already struck me as very much the product of a previous era. Great fun, though, and just the starting point a past popcultural freak needs.

Bill

Ages. A year? Maybe. Not sure, it might not be as long as that.

I think it closed down because they decided that actually what Camden needed wasn't a really cool bookshop but another shop selling mobile phone facias, leather jackets and sunglasses.

I'm very pro-SOTR, so thumbs-up for Crystal Palace (the decaying park, more Thai restaurants than you strictly need, the view of the city, home), Sydenham (camera shops and art-deco antiques), Greenwich (obviously), Deptford, Dulwich, Brixton, Herne Hill, Peckham Rye, Rotherhithe... Can't quite bring myself to love North Peckham, Clapham, Stockwell, Walworth, Streatham...

Highgate, Belsize Park, Hampstead? Well, it's pretty, innit? Hackney's appeal remains a mystery to me - I'm sure Mark S can put me right, but out of Liverpool Street and from the North London line, it sure do look grim.

I do not recall Green Lanes humming on Saturdays. I do recall a lot of people swearing loudly from their cars at other drivers / pedestrians / nothing in particular. It is certainly a very atmospheric place and does indeed have some fantastic greengrocers (specially Johnny English and his potato and melon shop).

The other night, we took the 133 home from Strange Fruit cause we didn't have the money for a cab. I've never been fond of South Of The River (it still seems almost like a betrayal to live here now) but it was fascinating to start in the dark, old, medieval City (even when the buildings are modern, the street plan is still medieval- rather alarming to go careening through in a giant bus in the middle of the night) venture south across the river, and chart the southward development of the City, through Elephant & Castle, Brixton, Victorian suburbs turning to Victorian villages surrounded by 20th century suburban build-up... I still don't like living South of the river, but it was an interesting experience.

It's a cliche, but it's truth. London is best seen from the top deck of a bus. You wouldn't get that experience in a place like NYC.

Harringay hums like a beehive on Saturdays. The pavements are crowded, the buses crawl and I love it.

Basically, the council is spelled 'Haringey' and the smaller area within that (Harringay proper, like Hackney within the broader Hackney borough) is spelled erm.... Harringay. Any other variants are just plain wrong (strangely, where I live in Stoke Newington there's a Harringey Electrics on Church St, spelled that way).

Now I once heard (don't ask me where) that the reason for the difference is political correctness gone mad. Apparently, Harringay Council (as was) decided the spelling was somehow offensive to the gay community and decided to change the 'a' to and 'e' (and drop one of the 'r's at the same time, for reasons that weren't explained. But local Harringay residents weren't having any of it, so they launched a 'Glad to be Harringay' rearguard action

All this sounds like a terrifically tall tale to me, but I like to repeat it until I hear the real reason. Perhaps, and this is only conjecture, Harringay Council (as was) got tired of their being a confusion between locality and borough in their day to day paperwork and made the break for that reason.

Tufnell Park is also misspelt (or alternatively spelt) as Tuffnel Park (or something equally ridiculous). I'm not surprised minicab drivers get lost so easily.

Re: Johnny English. Maybe there's some great recipe that calls for potatoes and melons? Like potato and melon soup or something.

Hmm, the HarinGAY story I seem to remember making up two years ago in a pub. I'm not saying its not true, just that lies have a certain life of their own in this city. I'm sure the Hornsey Historical Society would know. Of course standardisation of placenames is a relatively new concept as it is. (I know growing up I witnessed the bloodless battle that was Boreham Wood vs Borehamwood).

On this note, I have to ask... is there any truth to the story that Elephant & Castle is so named due to a historical mispronounciation of "L'Enfant De Castille"? I was told this story by a Canadian tourist, and have repeated it so many times and with such conviction that I've come to believe that it is true. Yet the other day, I told someone the story, and they looked at me like I had three heads.

This is about the origins of the elephant and castle

And I was really disappointed to go and see that it is really an elephant with a castle on its back. I was really hoping for a GIANT castle FULL of elephants. That would have been much cooler.

As would Spanish princesses, but hey. Sigh.

Okay, spot quiz: Areas of London named after pubs. You have Swiss Cottage, Elephant and Castle....Any more for any more?

Nunhead is reputed to be named for the (Old) Nun's Head.

Nags Head? Angel must be a pub one because there aren't any angels in the area. Angel Edmonton the same as well.

I'd also heard Kate's Enfant de Castille story, and of course immediately took to it, as valuable pedant-fodder. Fave pronunciation-drift: saveloy (via old French and then old Italian) = cerebellum, Latin for brain!! Because that's what's in 'em!! Enjoy!

Or is that second only to "starting a quaint second hand bookstore in Devon" in terms of sad indie kid fantasies about what they'll do when they quit their dayjobs?

The *really* interesting antiquarian stuff was well out of my financial range ...

There is a pub there of that name but it gets its name (I assume) from the 'worshipful society of bakers' (or similarly named guild organisation) alms-house just down the road. I can't remember whether that building features a prominent coat-of-arms or not.

Either that or Dorking. Just for the name.

best: Chiswick-Hammersmith (leafy and lush). i actually quite like Clapham (tho the Junction can be grim as hell) - the Common area is fine. Ladbroke Grove and portobello are gorge...i like Notting Hill Gate/Bayswater too - something re-assuring about them.

worst: Harlesden, Willesden and Kilburn - brrrr, Wandsworth too, plus being from the west i'm very wary of Hackney, Hoxton and Peckham. Brixton has improved a lot over the years

Camden is alright...the walk from Regents Park to the Lock can be very plesant. and the road that the Odeon and Dublin Castle are on is ok...its just the main street that sucks really - mainly cos of all the scum.

Brixton is the trendiest area these days huh? i guess its just that little bit out of central to be hijacked fully by meejawhores and eurotrash. i guess you can live in Brix but work in Clerkenwell tho eh?

'leafy' chiswick and hammersmith are a longing heartbeat away from richmond/fulham/putney HELLHOLE

I assume you're just referring to the stereotypical residents of such areas, Richmond's gorgeous for the most part and you'd be mad to think otherwise

I have started thinking that way too, Michael, despite having only been out of the place six months. I don't know whether it's illusory or not. For me, it's a kind of queasy daydream.

And Neverwhere isn't nearly as bad as you lot make it out to be. That said, I'm only halfway through...

There is nothing to envy about people that live in Hoxton. The place is GRIM, with or without the trendy media wankers.

The highly underrated Crystal Palace is also GRATE, partly for the proliferation of ace Thai restaurants as mentioned upthread, but mostly because it has a park with GIGANTIC PLASTIC DINOSAURS! See...

http://www.nyder.com/dinos/graphics/megalosaur.jpg

http://search.eb.com/dinosaurs/dinosaurs/images/odinosu047p4.jpg

http://www.nyder.com/dinos/graphics/waterdinos.jpg

Beat that.

http://www.nyder.com/dinos/graphics/iguanadon2.jpg

scum areas
chelsea
hamptead
fulham
finsbury park
archway
tuffnell
notting hill
north london
west london

i never knew about the Crystal Palace dinosaurs before - superb.

weirdly, Kilburn looks kinda cool when you pass thru it on the train

my fave areas remain Greenwich, Chiswick, Hammersmith, Sheps Bush, Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove, Islington and Camden but this is more to do with their general prettiness than anything negative viewed as positive (e.g. 'i love Shoreditch cos its soooo seedy' or whatever). i would say Brixton too but i'm not round that way enough.

I have really fallen for Tooting since moving there. I am so taking Isabel to see the dinosaurs on Saturday!

The petting zoo might be open still though. It used to have a llama.

i should point out these are just yer typical suburban semi-detached type things and not council flats or what have you. its no worse than anywhere else in that Zone 5 belt really...and at least there's a nice bit of Green Belt nearby.

SW London is great. Putney is nearly perfect. Try exploring a little outside your own infested little holes.

Equally, I'm sure I'm inflating the sense of danger in some of these places as it is - I have no problem walking round Catford at 3am... it's a devil-you-know situation, I think.

Matt is OTM about the 'devil you know' nature of all this.

most (if not all) people on this board who live in the grimy areas were not born and raised there correct? we've discussed this before i think. i think London natives have their own sense of pride about the area they grew up in no matter where it is - but they know all too well the cons as well as the pros. this would extend to even as far out as where i am - the area i grew up in and still live in is a good place to raise a family - crime is low/average, pollution not bad etc. - the problem is you can't enthuse about it in any other way and those virtues are useless to me as a 20something male eager to spend more time uptown partying while he's got the chance. the advantage of Islington area is you're closer to that, but you'd better have the high income to back it up i guess.

If Morocco or Zemko grew up round here and hated it, well, I'll respect their views a lot more. Part of becoming an adult while living in SW19 involved being able to travel into town whenever I wanted, so that's just as much a part of it as the comfort of leafy suburbia.

heehee. sorry.

Anyway, I retain a fondness for Greenwich, and Walthamstow seems like the PLACE TO BE over the past year or two. Camden is awful but good at the same time. I remember Southfields as being pretty.

also london doesn't need moving 50 miles to the west any more obv.

i am very attached to it in lots of ways, and one of my best london-born friends (peckham, in fact) is planning to move from fulham to hackney to start a family (not with me)

Turnpike Lane is grotty, but it's easy to get to other places.

(I am bitter because the last time I tried to find Chris' house I got lost and ended up walking through a terrifying industrial wasteland as it was getting dark and then Ronan went back to Ireland before I saw him anyway. And WHY did I get lost? Becuase a local humourist thought it would be fun to move the road signs round. Bah. East London sucks)

And remember Crouch End is the spiritual home of ILx. (ie More than a few of us live there).

http://www.emeraldz.com/Finished/F412.gif

anyone got this? is it any good?

so yeah whatever

Are they both as bad/good as each other or does one have an edge?

(looking forward to seeing you!)

I also liked Clapton (pretty pretty, though spotted some baby carriages, tsk tsk) and Hackney (London Fields was better than expected), thought the Lea Bridge was a major disappointment, and Dalston of course, especially Columbia Road with all the nice Vietnamese restaurants.

I wasn't sure about Whitechapel, it was hard to feel the 19th century vibe, until dusk came on and we saw Hawksmoor's church looming...Whitechapel St. was pretty rough....as was Brick Lane--I thought it would be more a cartoonish version of a strip of Indian restaurants--like Rusholme...

still i wouldn't mind moving again by the end of the year, but where to??

though of course that does not mean in any way that it is not grim or scary or anything (though it isn't).

i've still never been to clapham. i wonder if i ever will.

i liked Clapham, i miss that Arling & Hobbs sign and the Frog & Forget-Me-Not pub quiz by the Common

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ginnel

Those estates aren't really scary. Well, I never had any trouble, anyway.

also seven sisters is the new crouch end (possibly)

(ie a passageway kind of thing)

(x-post - Toby spoiled my disdain)

Also: I might very well Go For An Ponce at Sky Ear.

p.s. i thought phil and lisa eastenders lived in highgate (i read it on the newspapers but of course it could have been poorly researched).

I like Newington Green too. It has a Cava bar.

I got an interesting local history book from Upper Clapton library about a community called The Island. It's demolished now, but stood in a tangle of streets near Hackney Downs. Bad planning meant only two small road entrances into the area and its isolation spawned a myth of 'don't like outsiders' attitute. It was self contained with shops, a dairy, pub etc so many residents never left the locality.

G, I'd like to read about that. Whereabouts was it in Hackney downs? where all the big flats are now?

http://www.fancyapint.com/thepubs/pub83.htm

Although the FAP web crew don't like it due to refurbishment. Rockist scum. The patio is a bit Harvester, I'll admit though.

The Anchor is a shit-hole.

The Founders Arms - that's the estate pub I was thinking of. I've never actually been inside.

xpost

The Anchor, hmm, I've had a couple of OK meetups there, but it's not really a place to spend a night - the food is ph34s0m3 - not just a bit crap, but really off-puttingly repulsive!

Good old Founders Arms - but NO CRISPS = NO POINTS.

I've only ever seen the book in Upper Clapton library (Hackney Central Library doesn't have a copy). It's written on an old typewriter and tells the history of this 'island' which was built in 1871 (originally known locally as Navvie's Island as it housed the workers building the Liverpool Street to Chingford line). It was demolished in 1971 (oddly exactly 100 years later) and there is a school covering most of the site.

Look on your A-Z's for Rendelsham Road, Landfield Road and Ottaway Street. There are your boundaries. I can find no links via Google.

pubs have to be GOOD in order to enjoy yourself? personally i find the having a drink and walking along the river bit the enjoyable part.

i mean yeah, the pubs can be better but when it's a nice day i think i'd rather be stopping by the anchor for a pint during the walk than to sit at some pub elsewhere admiring how it got a 5 pint rating on fancyapint.com

the flooded pub on the Youngs advert you see in Youngs pub toilets is in ruvly Richmond no?

On crossing Hammersmith Bridge I spied a small, weathered plaque set into the wooden handrail that runs the length of the bridge. A pilot in Her Majesty's airforce had jumped off it in 1919, at the spot marked by the plaque, to save a drowning woman who was crying for help. He saved her, but he didn't survive the jump.

A friend of mine lives in Peckham. If I were to go and be a tourist would that be a poor base of operations?

True Love of Country in England - City dwellers are moving to villages in record numbers. Rural economies benefit, but some say at too high a cost to the locals.

What is happening to the housing market in England? It's come up in the news here quite a bit, e.g., people selling their homes and buying property in Greece or other parts of continental Europe.

new faves: Crystal Palace, Greenwich, Upper Upper Holloway, Clerkenwell, Turnham Green (always) because i will seemingly always be an aspiring poshnob

new least faves: Hackney Wick-Stratford-Bow triangle (but it's pretty much just a giant industrial estate anyway), Upper St Islington on weekend nights only (fine the rest of the time), Old St/Moorgate (soulless bleh and location of work), BECKTON and everything southeast of where i am now basically

Are you sure you're okay? Are your glands swollen at all?

Is it cold at the moment? I'm thinking of coming back for a week or two in May? Everyone was better looking than I remembered on my last visit.

Neither Clapham Common nor West Ham thrilled me as I much as I hoped they would. Has CC always been buorgie, or is it a more recent thing? The houses there were very charming though. In fact, West Ham was such a disappointment that I didn't even carry on to Dagenham, as I had originally planned. Is there anything in West Ham? Shall I revive the approach to Dagenham on my next visit? I did enjoy a Sunday night out in Camden Town though--at the Elephant's Head--where I was a bit confused to find cockney accents attached to rockabilly guises. Took a few pints and pics in the Good Mixer as well--was a lot brighter than I had expected it to be.

Made my second visit to Highgate Cemetery. Marx's grave still eluded me but did find Radclyffe Hall's Well of Loneliness. Our host highly recommened Kensall Green cemetery. Has anyone visited?

I really liked Soho a lot more this time. I was always really confused by all the back streets but this time they fell into a pattern and I passed familiar markings. Why had no one told me about the Vintage Magazine store???

I fancied a trip to Dagenham Dock recently (this is where the massive wind turbines are yes?) but i'm not sure it's really worth seeing (as dramatic as the turbine fans may be).

I was a bit hard on Beckton earlier, if only because Alix and I scaled Beckton Alp a while back after walking down the lengthy Greenway path (I'm wondering if this is what Squarepusher's 'Greenways Trajectory' references, is likely as the album it's from also features 'Plaistow Flex-Out' iirc), and it's probably one of the best views in East London (very dramatic view of The City (Gherkin etc.) esp. at this time of year plus C Wharf, The Valley, London Arena, ExCel, the Trellick clones of Blackwall...you can see it all!).

Haha whenever my friend and I go to Soho the epicentre of our trip, which we always manage to find our way back to, is Rupert Street with its assorted sex shops.

the absolute worst place in London has to be Tottenham Court Road station at rush hour, or indeed most times - could any station be more poorly designed for moving massive quantities of people through it as efficiently as possible?

I like the CD glitterballs in Carnaby Street at the moment.

Bow is great, a bit skanky but never horrid. A lot safer than I'd been led to believe too.

Wapping and Shadwell are horrid.

I don't think I've ever seen Old Street in the daylight, which may be why I like it.

O, T and fucking M.

I maintain that the far South East corner of London (Thamesmead-Bexleyheath-Woolwich-Plumstead-Erith) is the worst though. Horrible, horrible, horrible. But then I have little experience of the desert than is North East London.

oh dear

the pre-war tube stations can't deal with the amount of people using them now, that's why none of it makes sense. the newer stations (Jubilee line extension etc.) are much better designed and equipped. I still have yet to use them tho so am missing out on glass barrier/door alignment fun.

worst - the places where we never have FAPs

I invite you to our home, feed you and this is how you repay me? You disappoint me.........

TCR is fucking nightmare, aye. There are plans to completely replace it, but god knows when they'll come to fruition. The new Jubilee line stations are some of my favourite things in the world. Brunel would have approved, I think.

I like the grey and sterile of the Jube extension, it feels like the future.

i never go east, or south

the next time mary is in town she should accompany me to the red brick pub on shooters hill so we can sing along to the greatest hits of oasis and abba with people old enough to be our grandparents.

You're welcome to come round for a cup of tea if you're in the area.

Like Tom Phillips, whose current show at Flowers East should be packed full of admirers, I love Peckham.

Places I do not miss: Euston station, Victoria Rd.

the guys from archway have a rather unfair advantage of being from the top of the hill

ARGH! I met North WEST London. I am a big fan of the Stow.

The bus to Peckham doesn't really take much longer from Central London than the bus to Crouch End or Highbury or various other NOTR places. One day I will meet a North London internet mentalist who actually uses the Tube.

I like Peckham Rye and the whole area around Hopkins Towers - much o the rest of it is all a bit nasty though.

hello.

I've never waited half an hour for a train home, except in the dead of night, which is when NL transport really does have the advantage, although Camden Town tube closed ridiculously early on Sunday night. Getting from SE to SW London is still an arse, mind.

i'm one of the few people who like the NL Silverlink - maybe because without it i'd be truly screwed. i like being able to go from Willesden Junction (eurgh) to Clapham Junction (not as bad) via Olympia (boho/Iranian resturant city) as well.

I used to go to a gym there.

here's the map:

http://www.klinkerclub.info/klinker_nunhead_dec_04.html

maybe I could round tim's for a nice cup of tea (maybe some cake?) before the gig.

The Kilburn view from the Met is one of the best on the tube, along with Greenford/Northolt

Since I can see what's indisputably Peckham Rye from my bedroom window, and since I often go into Peckham and rarely into East Dulwich, and since I get the train from Peckham and never from East Dulwich and since I like Peckham much more than I like East Dulwich, I tend to say Peckham. But I don't really mind.

"Fears about the Millennium Bridge's safety were initially raised -"

"Oh look, I go to school there!"

Every time I keep thinking that I should try Croydon more, I go there and just want to cry. I really ought to go and see something at the David Lean one of these days, though...

I just like the exploring, trying to find new routes. The ones I find always seem to end up with me taking half an hour to get about ten yards further down the road, but it's quite fun really.

I also have deep fear of being on trains on my own, so I just walk or bus it where I can. I like it taking longer to get into town. It's just more fun that way, plus it means I have to get up stupidly early and no-one else is around, the cold bites on my face and I can somehow guarantee that if I tune to Magic FM I will have heard 'Baker Street' before I get to the bottom of Knights' Hill. Ah, memories.

There are lots of offices in the area, but not that much residential.

but on a saturday or sunday daytime, clerkenwell will be closed, no shops, no people, windswept and forlorn

fitzrovia will still have people milling around.

the main thing is, they are not particularly residential areas (there are of course some people living there, but its not as residential as comparable areas in new york, though its difficult to kind of compare it)

xpost

how much does it cost to live in those Barbican towers?

haha, unlike me lately it seems...

evidence: the abundance of good places to get sausage sandwiches

other items of interest, and intense RADness:

the jerusalem tavern
the lovely looking hotel on cowcross street
Smiths of Smithfield Bacon Butties
Vertebrae and Kidneys on floor through Smithfields
24 hr cabbies cafe on long lane
Austrian Patisserie on similar
Chorizo and Rocket sndwiches from sMiths catering, cowcross street
the (russian)? girl who works in central cafe
the cute girl in EAT
fabric (yes its true!)
Simply Sausages
Konditor and Cook on Grays Inn Road (esp. "Boston Brownie")
Grays Inn Fields
Clerkenwell Green looks nice.
the square in St. Barts
Bus routes 17,45,46,63,4
(esp the 17)

hmmmmm why did i quit my job.......answers on a postcard

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39983-2004Dec31.html

(Reg required, so exerpted for your reading pleasure):

• Clerkenwell Pub Crawl

Clerkenwell is to London what SoHo is to New York: a historic, if gritty, neighborhood turned uber-hip after trendsetters converted cheap property into stylish abodes. As the money flowed in, pubs and restaurants sprouted, making it a great place for a traditional English pub crawl.

Start at the Jerusalem Tavern (55 Britton St.). Founded in 1720, this tiny pub still sports some of its original decor, such as blue and white Dutch tile friezes and a crooked oak bar and tables, each tucked away in its own private nook. But when it comes to drinking, traditional it is not. The Jerusalem is owned by the boutique brewery St. Peter's, which turns out a line of innovative beers, including a summer ale, a cream stout and lemon and ginger fruit beer -- all packaged in copies of 18th-century beer bottles. The crowd, as one Web review put it, is filled with "honest beer drinking folk but you do get the odd alpha-male talking loudly about his boat."

You'll get a more standard pint around the corner at the Three Kings pub (7 Clerkenwell Close). Note the sign: Only one of the kings is an English monarch; the other two are King Kong and Elvis. The pub's decor includes wacky papier-mache sculptures and a stuffed rhino, but the hordes come for the cheap, good food and lovely outdoor drinking area. On a crowded evening, you can even take your beer into the churchyard across the road.

To finish the evening, head to Dust (27 Clerkenwell Rd.), a bar that reflects the true vibe of today's Clerkenwell. Here, media hipsters sip sake-tinis and cosmos while the DJ spins funky urban grooves. Most pubs close at 11 p.m., but Dust has an extension license, which means it serves until 4 a.m.

Tube: Farringdon.

Jane Black last wrote for Travel about Bavarian Christmas markets.

ahahaha!

Konditor and Cook is great!

All this, and Roseberry Cabs too, with incongruous signed (allegedly) celebrity photos; apparently Ant and Dec and Chris Tarrant use Roseberry. It's appears to be staffed by a woman having constant rows with her girlfriend. Very entertaining.

Anyway, not on the list of pubs - The belgian boozer on Jerusalem passgae. The Betsey. The gentrified and now less good Appletree, The Pakenham. The fun never ends.

!!!

Expand on this, Gareth.

i went to Leigh-On-Sea a few weeks back and because I'm on this side of the city now and closer to the coast than I've ever been as a result (it was 50 mins or so from Upminster) that's helped me not feel so stifled by the city, tho i must say i prefer the South and West coasts of England to the East still.

this is my problem - my commute is too short for me to able to read properly, so i may as well cut it even shorter or move out to Zone 4/5.

xp

Now I feel relatively lucky that most days I only have to deal with crowded trains and not that kind of shit.

Apparently she's called Sonya, cos she getS ON YA nerves. According to a tube driver. (Or did I read that here?)

ok.

no.

i dont know, suddenly it feels cold, sort of ghostly. i walked down seven sisters road earlier this week, and i caught myself thinking i was 20 years in the future, and everyone was gone

applied for tfl last night, let me sort out the bus routes...

-- Mikey G (...) (webmail), April 20th, 2004 4:44 AM. (Mikey G) (link)

For those interested in The Island, there are a couple references to it in Arthur Morrison's 1894 novel Tales of Mean Streets.

yes yes I know ask me again in five years' time but from here, you don't know how good you have it.

if I didn't live in London (and stayed in the UK) I'd live in Oxford: close enough that I could still reap many of the LDN's benefits, and it's a gorgeous city.

(Psst Lex you are the only person I have ever known to actually refer to London as The LDN)

some great stills of the westside

http://www.londonstills.com/hammersmith.html

http://www.londonstills.com/notting.html

http://www.londonstills.com/wpost.html

i get that impression of london sometimes.

i thought, i love hackney and clapton

i think, maybe, i love london again

whitechapel
bethnal green
cambridge heath
hackney
upper clapton
lower clapton
stamford hill
manor house
finsbury park
holloway

fun at one end, fun at the other. god bless the 253/254 and all who sail in her

i've made a music video using the footage from filming that particular bus route, once.

i had become...a londoner

theres no going back now, not that i have any desire to anyway. im not a yorkshireman in london anymore, my lungs and heart are filled with the grime and dust of stamford hill and kentish town, poplar and archway, i am london. london is me.

the irony is, ive only had a 'home' here for the first year i was here, since then its been transient, tenuous, messy.

like london itself

i would move to ca, in an instant, still, should it happen

i do have things to send. chakis went first, because there was something to go on yours, which i now have (at last)

i'm going to the santa barbara for "memorial day weekend".

Dude, try Barnes, Roehampton, Wimbledon, Putney - you may miss out on edgy Eritrean delis but you'll live 40 years longer.

mark: im talking about places that make me feel home. those places may be great, but, i dont know them well. barnes doesnt make me feel ive become a londoner, finsbury park does because i know every nook and cranny.

specially not london.

I may not be really engaging with the city to the extent that Gareth or others are. Maybe it's just because I'm preferring train journeys around town, buses such a chore, no real sense of novelty in the surroundings anymore, but maybe moving to one of the areas Gareth enthuses over so much will change that. I'm looking forward to walking around on warm sunny days, talking photographs, straying off the usual tracks, and engaging with it that bit more.

Please advise.

i would move to california in a flash

Please advise.

It seemed so passing through on the 254 on Saturday.

I still don't think I could spend more than a few months in California or New York, though I would love to do just that.

Gareth, I've folllowed your train of thought with interest (re the London ennui, thinking about Yorkshire etc.). It's funny when you realise something like that at last and it all fits into place.

I also agree with your last remarks - it not being about novelty or liking somewhere particularly but of being intertwined with it.

If I do stay, I've already kinda made up my mind that I want to live in EC1, EC2, or N1. Although I'm open to other places, these are my primary choices. I'm sure you're all laughing at these spots - crazy expensive, parts overly trendy/yuppie/etc. Frankly, I don't care - I know there areas, and feel most comfortable there. Ideally, I would be near Spitalfields or Smithfields markets (I like markets, and more 'industrial' areas, for whatever reason).

Oh man, I really can't figure out what to do...

Not a bad area, mind and loads of new flats planned on the site of Middlesex Wharf at the bottom of the valley.

To me it suggests: 'suburban' style streets (1920s-30s 'semis', perhaps), with front gardens, hedges and trees lining the street. There are lots of streets like that in Upper Clapton - in the Clapton Common area and extending down to Springfield Park etc.

The Common is full of rats by the way.

The Lea and surroundings are great. 'Marshy'.

Re 'Clapton Common' vs. 'Upper Clapton' - I don't know if there's an accepted definition but to me 'Upper Clapton' is the general area lying around the main road, beyond the Lea Bridge Roundabout and extending as far as the limit of the Common itself. Beyond the Common I think of as the beginning of Stamford Hill.

Hackney Wick is VERY industrial but there are LOADS of artists hiding in the warehouses by Carpenters Road and the canal. It would be very difficult to Hoxtonize the area which is why they've taken to the place.

East Ham = check out Green Street for Pakistani cafes eg. Mobeen that do a whole tandoori chicken for 3.50, where you wind up ordering a tenner's worth of food and leaving most of it unfinished because that's how full you are and how big your eyes were compared to your stomach. It's easy to find because West Ham stadium is at one end of Green Street, and this is Main Asian Drag in the area.

Rob, Leather Lane is crawling with agent's boards right now.

Outside the Crooked Billet tonight. 7pm. Should be over in time for the football.

(are you not coming back to CA soon?)

sure it isn't Fitzrovia you were thinking of this time Rob? ;)

I'm off to Harlesden a bit later.

But if I go to Thamesmead, what should I do when I'm there?

D: are there a lot of pigeon-fanciers round there, then?

http://www.movie-locations.com/movies/c/clockwork.html

Who's the man with the master plan?

It looks like the river should be fairly accessible, but who can tell?

Ed, I think I'm going to Thamesmead.

xxxpost

The last time I was in Thamesmead I was attempting to hitchhike back to Blackheath at 3am. After wisely passing up the opportunity to ride in a car full of spliff smoke and angry-looking Eastern European dudes, I eventually made it home courtesy of a Ghanaian man called Freddie. He claimed he was going to pick up his 8-year old daughter from Hammersmith but at that hour of the night it seemed unlikely, so he was probably going to bury a body in Oxleas Wood instead.

This is no help at all, is it? Sorry.

This may be the worst idea I've ever had, I hope so.

The Woolwich ferry is quite fun.

I'm coming down tomorrow, for a day trip, for this (warning, may be NSFW). Where's the best place to park my car and get on the tube in North London?

And these people have done some funny art projects about the place:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rachel.barbaresi/mainhtml/work05.htm

I'm not really much of a perv Dada compared to most of the people who will be there, and I'm rather worried that when I get there it'll be so busy and crowded that I'll just have panic attacks. But, hey, I'm off anyway.

As far as I can tell from the TFL website, the Picc is practically the only line running a vaguely-normal service (apart from a couple of long-term station closures)

I saw Thamesmead from the other side of the river the other day when I cycled round the Royal Docks. Before that I gone on the Greenway from Old Ford to Beckton along the route of the pipe carrying the whole of north London's sewage. This is actually nicer than it sounds, apart from the fact that you could smell sewage for the last couple of miles blowing in from Barking, and that when I stopped a shady character kept hassling me saying 'what size are your wheels, bruv?'

I'm quite interested in Thamesmead [and haven't been]. When are you going, Tim?

This sounds like something I should be involved with.

The 177's nice though.

Maybe tomorrow is a bit hopeful, what with the percentage chances of skinfullery tonight being rather high. Oh *I* don't know.

Check yer text messages.

We saw a heron by the stream and another heron by a lake. Our knowledge of British wading birds was tested to breaking point.

We had a pint in the Barge Pole, which is an estate pub in the classic mould, and nice & friendly on a Sunday evening.

Late International Style fans, take note! The Late International Style action to be had is not strictly in SE28 Thamesmead at all, but rather in next-door SE2 Abbey Wood. It's marked as South Thamesmead on the A-Z and is a brutalist wonder in light-coloured concrete, big slabby flats peering indifferently down on the cleanest, clearest urban lake I'd ever seen.

We saw a building with a groovy roof, somewhere in the distance.

I'll take the parakeets, please.

Nothing beats swifts, of course, but they've been here forever. :-)

Could someone possibly enlighten me as to whether Bermondsey is worth considering as a place to live, and what it's like as an area etc? If not, what other areas are nice around there (aside from Borough and London Bridge)? Need to be close to the docklands, but also need to be near decent links to the west of London. I'd sooner live somewhere with character, even if it is a bit rougher. Also, I know toss all about London districts in general.

I like Bermondsey. Some of it is grim though.

It's a bit of a shithole, frankly. Pretty sketchy at night and not exactly brimming over with character either. Kind of amazed it hasn't gentrified more by now being so convenient for the City, London Bridge and Canary Wharf but presumably that's because no one want to live there.

You're probably better off either somewhere on the Central Line (Bow or Bethnal Green maybe) or round Whitechapel or Stepney somewhere. Depends where in West London you need to get to.

I thought about living in Bermondsey when I was looking for a flat, but I'm pretty glad I didn't pick that flat now. Apparently north of Jamaica Rd is OK, but south of it is a bit horrible.

I'm really glad that I didn't pick anywhere south of the river at all, because getting around isn't as easy. But if you want to be near the docklands have you thought about the bits near Canada Water?

i really, really like London.

is there some rule about when you should and shouldn't say 'the' before a london road name?

like, it seems you would say 'the old kent road' but not 'the euston road'.

Has it been the subject of a music hall song, if yes, then add a 'the'.

Just as long as you don't say "The Strand" you'll be alright.

Actually my grandad would always say "Old Kent Road" without the "the". But then he was from the olden times.

He also pronounced Euston with an H. So really not a good guide to anything.

King's Road is the tricky one here.

I tend to say 'The Holloway Road' and 'The Seven Sisters Road'. I don't know why.

D: West London. Who the fuck lives in West London? The streets are too wide and it freaks me out.

the euston road is fine, but never a The in front of Kings road

The Euston Kings Road is fine, but never a The in front of Kings Euston Road.

There is obviously no rule whatsoever but I think when a road has a heavy pedestrian usage, for shopping or, perhaps more importantly, promenading and being social, then a 'The' sometimes gets added. That would fit with the following:

The Kings Road
The Holloway Road
The Strand

In cases where there is *less* emphasis on that aspect, and *more* on a road simply being a route to travel along to somewhere else, then there is less likely to be a 'The' added. Hence:

Clapham Road
Brixton Road
Kingsland Road
Camden Road

In the case of Euston Road, personally I would never add a 'The' to it. To me it is just a traffic route, although I believe it may once have had a more vibrant street life, which could explain why there are 25,000 google results for "The Euston Road". Another apparently anomalous case is Bayswater Road, to which, again, I would never add a 'The' (but surprisingly there are a fair number of google references prefixed with a 'The'). I suppose it has a promenading character to some extent (certainly with the long-established painting sellers by the park railings).

One other thing to consider is the length of a road. So in the case of Charing Cross Road, even though it has a strong pedestrian character (with its bookshops and so on), there are only 12,000 google references prefixed with a 'The'. I think that might be because it is short and therefore doesn't acquire the more looming, iconic status that a longer road does.

Will be in London all next month, homeless for this period so far pretty much. Anyone who would like to say hi or give me some spare change can email me or start having a hilarious conversation with me here on this thread now!

rhadoo and raresh @ fabric week after next

I'll be in London over the second weekend of September, seeing Kan Mikami at Cafe OTO, in Dalston. I'll probably be getting the train to/from Euston or King's Cross. Any suggestions for hostels/cheap accommodation in a suitable location?

I'm wondering about the Clink Hostel: http://www.clinkhostel.com/ which looks quite interesting.

Never seen or heard of it but looks alright. Might be a bit noisy but otherwise very well located indeed for what you'll want to be doing.

My main concern is not being familiar with what might be a good location. I've only been to London a handful of times and don't know it at all.

Is it feasible to walk from the Euston/King's X area up to Cafe OTO in Dalston, up at the top of Kingsland Road, given that I'm generally the walking type?

It will take a while, but is doable, maybe 45 minutes. The number 30 bus runs that route.

Thanks. That sounds fine. A quick search didn't find any hostels near the venue, so it seems easier to stay nearer the centre by the stations.

If you want to do other things in London then King's Cross is a MUCH better place to stay than Dalston. Although why there would be any hotels or hostels in Dalston is beyond me, it's not really a place where people go and stay.

You're better off taking the bus than walking to Dalston incidentally.

Is it not a particularly pleasant walk, or through dodgy areas?

Thanks for the tips; I'll find something in the King's X area and then walk/public transport it out to the venue.

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/386051891_e1fd80dc5b_o.jpg

basically

I'm from NW Losers

It looks like a wonky hamburger.

'new'?