England's midfield etc

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After watching England struggle - thats being kind, actually - against Japan tonight, I have many questions about Euro 2004:
Do you play Scholes or Lampard? Butt or Lampard? Gerrard on the left or as a holding midfielder? Joe Cole? 4-4-2 or 4-5-1?
And is it all irrelevant in the face of Zidane, Viera, Pires, Trezeguet & Henry?

― David Nolan (David N.), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 22:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Gerrard was alright, Lampard ok considering - Becks and Scholes had a bad game - i would put Lampard in Scholes position based on form. I think Butt could do an okay job holding deep in midfield...if there REALLY is no-one else (Hargreaves? hmm?) - i like Gerrard where he was tonight and it seems he does too (J Cole or even Heskey can also cover this position - esp. with A Cole/Bridge as they seem keen to do)

England will play a lot better against France altho a heavy defeat does seem more likely now

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 22:30 (twenty-one years ago)

4-3-1-2

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I would advocate a spade formation.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 22:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I reckon that Shaun Derry [ex Pompey captain] now of Crystal Palace - will break into the England squad next season.

A tough tackler, strong, excellent passing abilty, 100 % commitment.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 22:48 (twenty-one years ago)

how old is derry, martian?

i missed the game tonight. my feeling, the last while, is that lampard must play (and i think it would work better if he played alongside butt rather than scholes). i also think he should have brought barry with the squad, to have one proper left midfielder if needs be.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 22:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Shaun Derry 26 and 1/2 googled [date of birth Dec 6 1977]

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 22:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Derry plays the holding central midfield role.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't see somebody from an "unfashionable" club breaking into the midfield, even at squad level. Its one place England are quite strong : Beckham, Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard, Butt, Hargreaves, Dyer, Cole, Neville....not to mention the likes of Carrick, Bowyer, Sinclair, Murphy, Barry, Hendrie etc who don't make the squad.

― David Nolan (David N.), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 23:01 (twenty-one years ago)

the defensive central midfield role is a specialist position though, take a few players out injured - and you get a chance, also grip/sven will see Derry perform in the premiership.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Barton at Man City will be a contender for that position too...

― David Nolan (David N.), Tuesday, 1 June 2004 23:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Scholes had a poor game - it seems obvious to me anyway that Lampard should replace him with several contenders for the holding player - Butt, Neville, hargreaves. England's midfield doesn't need to be so obsessed with position - just be able to cover when Stevie G breaks (an awesome sight) and moves up.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:27 (twenty-one years ago)

however, we are FUCKED against france. that much seems apparent...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:30 (twenty-one years ago)

The problem is that Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard when they're on form are all fantastic and all play in the basically the same position for their clubs, but Sven is bending over backwards to accommodate them all. Gerrard is too good going forward to be wasted in the holding role and I'm not sure Lampard is right for it at all.

Eriksson's big mistake with regard to the midfield was not bringing in Parker and Barry as any more than minor players much sooner. Parker can be the long-term successor to Nicky Butt, I think, and Barry solves the left-sided problem but has been persistently ignored.

On the current squad available, I'd go with Butt (who is rusty, I know) at the base of the diamond and Lampard in place of Scholes, who on the basis of last night shouldn't be in the first team at all. Gerrard was good last night until it all fell apart and fantastic for the first half hour or so, and Beckham is undroppable obviously.

I am far from convinced by Kieron Dyer.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:32 (twenty-one years ago)

(Actually, Scholes plays behind the striker for Manyoo but the role he's being asked to fulfill for England is the Lampard-Gerrard one. IR Fule)

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think there's any real chance of that midfield playing against France, btw - if it can be torn open by Japan there's no way we're going to be facing Viera, Zidane, and Pires without any conventional defensive midfielders.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Reidy's "I'd put five across the middle, me, against France" seemed like the voice of sanity last night.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:44 (twenty-one years ago)

blimey, and it's not often one gets to say that.

i got in from the pub to find that meg had not watched the match live and was therefore about to watch the highlights, so i had to sit throguh the bludy thing again...

the japanese goal consisted of 12 passes, of which 9 or 10 were one touch stuff, marvellous.

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Also its worth pointing out that England are almost guaranteed to struggle against the minnows and raise our game against the big teams. It'll be alright against France - I'm holding out for 1-1.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:48 (twenty-one years ago)

matt, we're FUCKED, i'm sorry, but there you go...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I think my favourite moment of last night was John Terry's surging run from defence when he went past that Japanese player - proper Tony Adams circa 1996 "fuck this, follow me lads!" attitude.

Except better than Tony Adams, and younger, and less ugly, and not a Gooner.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 07:55 (twenty-one years ago)

England do tend to raise to raise their game against the better teams but if France play to potential....
Scholes is a better player than Lampard but he seems to tighten up for the national team. Maybe he feels some responsibility as one of the elder statesmen?
Why is Beckham undroppable? This fact arguably lead directly to England's elimination from the last World Cup. Plus the captainship should be given to Gerrard, now.

― David Nolan (David N.), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:01 (twenty-one years ago)

john terry does have that stirring "90s arsenal back four" look about him, doesn't he? isn't it? marvellous.

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Five in the middle v France seems the way to go, yes. Drop lickle Wayne, play Scholes/Lampard just behind Owen, then Beckham on the right, Gerrard and Hargreaves/Butt in the middle and - well I don't know why they never persisted with playing Cole in front of Bridge on the left.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Rooney was abysmal last night, and Scholes and Beckham weren't much better. I've just about recovered from all the graoning I did last night as pass after pass went astray. 5 across the back may be the way forward, yes, a deep holding player, two central and two wide a bit further forward (BUT WHO ON THE LEFT???!!!) and young Michael up front.

and Sean derry dor England? he's got about as much chance as I have

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:10 (twenty-one years ago)

England WILL play much better against France, it just depends how much better France are than that...

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Rooney is one of the players who can frighten France. Against Turkey, everytime he got the ball, you could see the Turkish defence panic. When he's playing well, that is the kind of effect he can have. But Owen is more likely to nick a goal if France are on top. Better surely to play both and hope the midfield can stand up to Zidane/Viera/Pires/Wiltord.
In particular, Gerrard needs to play well. He generally seems to succumb to awe against Viera.

― David Nolan (David N.), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:17 (twenty-one years ago)

he didn't last time Liverpool played Arsenal, he was fantastic, it was Henry that made the difference that day (for a change)

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:23 (twenty-one years ago)

England drew 1-1 with japan in their penultimate match before Euro 96. Funny old world etc.

Scholes came to prominence with being an attacking midfielder - he became the guy playing behind the striker when Fergie had to play one striker as he couldn't rely on Veron to defend.

Undroppability - shades of Shearer in 2000. Matt OTM re Parker and Barry. And why does Ugo Ehiogu never get a look in (Ehiogu = Steve bruce of the laet 90s).

Cole caught out again I see; one left side solution is cole and bridge. Bridge is a better defender and Cole is better going forward.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't remember England drawing with Japan prior to Euro 96. i remember they beat them 2-1 in the Umbro CUp '95 tho, and England played a Hong Kong Golden Select XI in May 96 but that was 1-0 or something.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Ehiogu has gone one better then Bruce in actually playing for England tho (and even scoring)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Bridge is a better defender and Cole is better going forward

i would dispute this also as tho COle seems to do it more often, Bridge tends to be more effective (see a certain Champions League quarter-final second leg)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Steve and Matt OTM. Frank at the front of the diamond - he will definitely get shots in and real penetration from midfield is what we need. Beckham and Gerrard right and left and Butt in front of the centrebacks.

Scholesy had a shocker - seemed afraid/unable to shoot and gave the ball away too much. I see the attraction of 5 in midfield, but feel that Rooney just behind Owen will create something.

I feel that Joe Cole could be special if given a chance, maybe this will depend on how Rooney goes. I think Sven is reluctant though.

Dyer is a cocky, overrated, lazy shitebag and can f- off.

Forget the Bridge/A. Cole double act.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Bridge-Cole is madness, I'm starting to realise, you'd end up with both of them piling forward at once and getting caught short.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:35 (twenty-one years ago)

not if you give them proper instruction surely? they can't be complete idiots /remembers rumours of WB's intense thickness/

Dyer didn't get a chance really last night, I don't think he's as bad as the good doctor suggests.

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:37 (twenty-one years ago)

No he's prob not. I just don't like him.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I still think England will do well in Euro 2004

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 08:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I must have misread upthread but I thought I saw someone say Sean Derry for England.

Lovely equalising goal.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Indeed - its good that England have got their mediocre 1-1 scare (see also Switzerland and Sweden) out of the way before the tournament. Now we'll only be mildly outplayed by France instead of completely and utterly.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Too much reliance on long balls, fuck-all first time passing, fuck all midfield and upfront movement into space. Every time Japan passed it they passed first or second time, and then moved straight away, easy, flowing, good-looking football that was effective; if they had better players they would have fucking eaten us. Every time we got it we walked forward five steps, turned around, back eight steps and passed it sideways for Gerrard/Beckham/Lampard to lump forward. Beckham was rubbish. They have to start without him on Saturday. Play Gerrard on the right with licence to move inside when he needs too (G Neville and one centre-mid can cover). Much as I don't like him, Butt needs to play and hold the midfield. Play J Cole for fuck's sake, him, Gerrard, Lampard & Butt in midfield. Rooney to start just behind Owen (also get Rooney to leave Everton for the sake of his development, this is U&K). Defence bare-bones but alright, EXCEPT THAT NO ONE IS MENTIONING THAT BOTH TERRY AND JAMES WERE NUTMEGGED FOR THE GOAL = PLZ PLZ PLZ GET A PHYSIOTHERAPIST TO LEARN #'EM HOW TO STAND INNIT K THNX BI.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Speaking as a neutral here (ahem), England as a football nation have always struck me as being very like Germany - tho rarely as successful - they don't play very attractive football and they very often beat teams who play "better" than them

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:10 (twenty-one years ago)

There were loads of Japanese guys in the pub last night. One lovely girl too. She caught me looking at her bum and I went red.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:12 (twenty-one years ago)

When you have Gerrard and Beckham playing in your midfield you can afford to play long balls provided you have someone upfront who can pick them up and control them quickly. If anything, there weren't ENOUGH long balls being played by the end last night and too much frantic short passing going astray.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Rooney + Owen = too short for long balls, and Owen has lost a yard of pace which would have carried him past people before. Plus his left-foot is awful! That chance when he skipped past the defender and jigged the keeper; had he planted his right foot on the ground and lifted it over the keeper with his left, instead of prodding it like a fucking aimless flower with his too-stretched right, we'd have scored.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:16 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.geocities.com/carsmilesteve/masterpiece.jpg

there were quite a few japanese people in our pub too.

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

There is much in what Nick S says. I thought James looked like a tit for the goal. I guess he was unsighted, but I would have expected a top class keeper to shovel it away somehow. It wasn't a hard shot.

The long balls might work as a diagonal thingy to cut out the France midfield. I thought I saw Beckham and Gerard do this last night. I think if you do this you have to get runners from midfield to come onto the next pass. Lampard poss? Long balls does not mean HIGH balls, hence the height of Owen and Rooney is irrelevant.

We don't seem to try and play it OVER the defence any more do we? Maybe Owen has lost pace, or the injuries have made him lose confidence to really stretch himself?

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Dadaismus has a point about England playing like Germany - but then Germany never beat a respected team 5-1 away from home did they? certainly not in recent memory. England are more haphazard too, regularly taking the lead by a goal or two very quickly (see vs Portugal in Euro 2000, vs Denmark late last year or vs Italy in LE TOURNOI '97!) and looking very exciting before squandering it all (in two of those cases at least). But it does seem clear that Sven's aim was to turn England into a team that just get the win irrespective of how they play - that's certainly what happened all thru the qualifying campaign for Euro 2004, and yes it was mostly turgid and uninspiring to watch (but yeh they won).

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Beckham did actually float an astonishingly beautiful ball to someone (Gerrard i think) early on last night, but that was pretty much the only decent thing he did bar a lovely 360 dance and muddle thru a couple of Japanese players deep in the second half

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick S: Joe Cole shouldn't even be in the squad. He is the current crowned king of dangle and only ever flatters to deceive.

Sorry I missed you at the weekend btw. Your mate's samba band was good! And seeing a Brazil team at the Park was amazing. And seeing my hero Tony Kellow in the flesh again after all these years was the best bit of all.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:43 (twenty-one years ago)

perhaps you might want to blog it mate ;)

(i would, but it seems a little rude :))

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:46 (twenty-one years ago)

No I think you should, I'm biased. Although perhaps I should blog Saint Tony of Sidwell Street.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:49 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, ok then, i suppose it's either that or do some work...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry you're wrong Tim. J. Cole has the ability to get into dangerous positions in the box that we need

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:52 (twenty-one years ago)

and then do a couple of step overs and LOSE THE BALL...

(i realise this is an exaggeration, but not by much)

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:56 (twenty-one years ago)

if england had half of the japanese team's organisation and movement they would be well away. It was beautiful to watch their build up play, if only their strikers don't just fall over everytime when get near the penalty box.

rooney played a beautiful pass for owen to fluff up last night. that's about all he did though. i don't think he's all that good in a striker's position.

what's happened to good strikers in england?

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh he gets into dangerous positions, and then little or no danger results. All the stepovers in the world can't change that. Has he ever played well for England? I'm thinking he might have, once, but I'm not sure.

There's no way he should be picked ahead of Beckham, Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard, Butt, Hargreaves or even Parker.

OF all the players in all the world, Frank Lampard is the one who went up most in my estimation this season.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:56 (twenty-one years ago)

and frank lampard missed every single shot by a country mile last night. as did scholes really.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 09:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Except the one the keeper saved...

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 10:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Why is everybody so sure that England will lose against against France?

Okay Zidane, Viera, Pires, Henry, Trezeguet & co. are quite scay on a good day, but their first team also includes a "fuckin' lazy nigger" as a central defender and Fabien Barthez on goal. Surely that stands for something?

― Pingu, Wednesday, 2 June 2004 10:05 (twenty-one years ago)

haha dude, we have david james!!!!

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 10:06 (twenty-one years ago)

although maybe the strategy vs france = david beckham to try to lob barthez everytime he gets the ball at the halfway line.

provided he doesn't get tackled by barthez there.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 10:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, everything depends on how France main players play. If Henry, Zizou, Viera and Pires play at their best, you don't have a chance, no matter what formation Sven chooses. If France fucks it up, England could snatch a win, Barthez is bound to make some big mistakes.

― Pingu, Wednesday, 2 June 2004 10:12 (twenty-one years ago)

haha "bound to"

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 10:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I hope "destined to" is okay.

― Pingu, Wednesday, 2 June 2004 10:16 (twenty-one years ago)

head to the bookies now!

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 10:19 (twenty-one years ago)

The J.Cole talk is nonsense.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

J.Cole should clearly be brought on to do tricks. Hopkins is all bread and butter and no fancy jam.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:14 (twenty-one years ago)

taking sides

Joe Wicks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/eastenders/images/eastenders/characters/joe_w/char_joewicks.jpg

Joe Cole
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39406000/jpg/_39406465_cole2_203x270.jpg

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm a Joe Cole fan but he shouldn't be at Chelski, i hope he gets some action in Portugal

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:15 (twenty-one years ago)

At least the Emile Heskey era would appear to be over.

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Joe Cole, if given chance alongside quality players and given a forward-thinking enough role (i.e not played wide left or straight centre mid) could well prove to be a diamond. He and Rooney are the only two players Sven will pick for the squad who can actually run at people. Cole needs chance to prove what he can do at international level. The reason he looks shit losing the ball in the middle of the park is because he shouldn't fucking be there in the first place!

PS Tim, I shall pass on your appreciation to Billy & the samba boys (& girls)!

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Dr. C: it's not nonsense. I even looked at some stats for him. Here they are: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player?id=7976&cc=5739

35 league appearances this season (18 starts): 1 goal and 3 assists. If (as you seem to be suggesting) his usefulness is in or near the penalty box, he should be being more productive than that. He manages just over one shot on goal every other game he plays. (One shot on goal per start, if you prefer).

I know stats don't give the full story but for all his undoubted ball skills, he's nowhere near effective enough as an attacker and he's certainly not a defensive midfielder. Maybe he needs a chance to prove himself at an international level but he needs to shine at club level first.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmmm, your argument is compelling, Tim, but I'd still have the vainglorious Cole in the squad than the currently workmanlike and ineffectual Scholes.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:25 (twenty-one years ago)

TS: workmanlike and ineffectual or just ineffectual.

Thing is, Scholes is certainly lacking form at present but he's your actual real proven quality international class attacking midfielder. Maybe JC will be in two years' time but he'd need to have been a shining star this year to deserve a chance in the actual tournament. He wasn't.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:28 (twenty-one years ago)

JC as sub when needed, not to start.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I was very disappointed in last night's showing. No holding midfielders, but none of the quartet are slackers or afraid of a tackle, so we shouldn't have been overrun so easily, at times. Similarly, they are all talented players going forwards, but we didn't create much. I think our problem may have been attitude - a confident and strong start, get a goal, and maybe then think we are better than the opposition, and let them take over. This may be why we can pull it out in big games that matter (Germany, Turkey, Argentina) but flounder in smaller ones.

If this is true, it makes the captain's job very important - if Sven can't motivate the players (and I don't think that's his strength), Becks has to. He's fine for the job, and I think he'll have little trouble getting everyone up for France.

I would fear this team playing against France: Viera and Makalele (I'm picking my French team here, I don't know who will actually play) can dominate the centre, while Zidane and Pires can tear us apart. Thing is, I'm not sure that some change like Butt for Scholes or Lampard will really make much difference to that.

I hope with Rooney it's a motivation thing too - that great performance against Turkey is looking some distance away, after last night and a pretty dismal league season - so maybe he can cut it when we need everyone on top form. If this doesn't materialise, we can replace him with Butt, giving the other four midfielders more licence to attack.

I'd play Bridge instead of Cole at left back, because I think he makes fewer positional errors in defence, and I don't think his attacking play is much less effective.

As for Joe Cole, I like him but largely agree with Tim; except that I think back to that quarter against Brazil when we looked so devoid of ideas, and I would be quite pleased to have someone like him on the bench in reserve for such a desperate need. I don't think I'd ever start him, though. (A comparison of stats with prime period Le Tiss would be interesting - he was talked of as a fancy luxury player and never got a serious chance for England, but his stats showed how effective he was.)

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I used to hold a torch for Joe Cole - the ability to make space by beating your man can make the difference at international level where defences are usually top notch and cover space very weel (A. Cole excepted). However, his utter inability to know when to pass and when to shoot have made me give up arguing his corner. I thought he maybe wanted to hold onto it at West ham as he didn't trust the finishers ahead of him, but at chelsea, he's the same. Because no end product, we, the jury pronounce him guilty of extreme fannydangle.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:29 (twenty-one years ago)

If the Dutch held France (thus preventing them for a record-breaking 16 wins in a row) then I think England can (from what I've seen the Dutch have problems in midfield similar to England, and they lost to Belgium at the weekend, hrrmm)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

But as fannydanglers go, he's among the best. His right-footed cross from left of his left foot last season was breathtaking. [I know, you'll never win trophies, by...]

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:33 (twenty-one years ago)

JC as sub when needed, not to start.

Jay-Z as sub would be even better.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:41 (twenty-one years ago)

The thing is, Scholes wasn't much cop last night but he still has the best touch and control of the England players, his positioning is good, he can run in and nip the ball into the net without anyone noticing. At the moment though he's running around like a headless chicken, giving the ball away far too often etc. I'd rather have an onform Paul Scholes in my team than any of the other midfielders save Beckham and Gerrard.

WRT to France, whoever plays upfront, Heskey, Owen, Rooney, whoever, just has to give it a fucking go, which Rooney showed little evidence of doing last night. If you run at Silvestre and Desailly you'll eventually get somewhere and Barthez is far from watertight. Stopping the rest of the team from playing is the problem.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

99 Problems But A Decent Left-Winger Is #1

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

99 Problems But A Decent Left-Winger Is #1

(x-post)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

JC Chazez perhaps? or Jarvis Cocker?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

last night's game was proof that the Heskey era is not over, we needed him more last night, someone to hold up the ball at the edge of the bok, someone to get on the end of those balls Becckham was pinging in, and most importantly, someone to bully the defenders, Sol Campbell is normally rock solid, put Hesky up against him and he trembles.

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

So much OTM-ness here it's amazing.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I noticed that on a number of occasions we had fallen back into the default habit of lobbing balls up front expecting a big lad to get his head on it. It's time we changed that mentality. I took Heskey not starting to be a sign that we are moving away from that, but the other players will have to adjust to that new reality.

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)

chris' first call for heskey to be brought on was at round 26 minutes last night, fact fans...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:47 (twenty-one years ago)

nooo, HOOF IT UP TO THE BIG LAD!!! FIZZ IT IN THE MIXER!!!! etcetc

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

JG - You said that deliberately to annoy Tim, didn't you?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

it's not just the lobbing balls up though is it? Heskey's the only forward we've got who likes to get the ball to him with his back to goal, the others all like balls to run on to, against a well marshalled defence this causes problems because that final ball will usually be cut out. A player with the strength of Heskey can get the ball, and lay it off, add more creativity if you will.

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:49 (twenty-one years ago)

He'll scare them little Japanese fellas to death!

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:50 (twenty-one years ago)

HIUTTBL and FIITM are both valid and useful tactics and MUST NOT be discarded in the hunt for some pipe dream of unattainable 'beautiful football'. Though other tactics can be good too, I suppose, in their place.

Chris OTM again.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

has there ever been a player of more disputed merit than Heskey. the poro and anti heskey factions are so partisan, the disagreement is so high, its almost possible to believe there are 2 completely different players out there

who else has inspired so much disagreement?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I just wish England had someone better than Emile to do that job, someone less easily discouraged, and someone whose sack-of-spuds impression was not so convincing. Though Heskey's pretty good. I've warmed to him in the last fortnight.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Steve McManaman. X-post.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

As for 'not just lobbing balls up' that is precisely what we resort to in our worst moments, e.g. the 2nd half versus Brazil. I'm prepared to concede that Heskey is not a terrible player, but how many successful international teams in the modern era use donkey-work, hold-it-up-and-lay-it-off number nines?

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:54 (twenty-one years ago)

"Bring Heskey on!" will my my clarion cry this tournament to rival "Bring on Big Quinnie!" (Ireland, 2002) and "Bring Sheringham on!" (Manyoo, 1998-99). Correct on both occasions.

Gareth - Joe Cole, surely?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:54 (twenty-one years ago)

fowler?

xxpost

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

i've come round to Heskey since the World Cup. i find his presence strangely comforting and confidence-boosting. i thought if anyone was going to score towards the end last night it would be him (what i'm basing this on i'm not sure).

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

How many successful teams are there in the modern era?

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Giraffe - THE GERMANS!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

with cole, its always about what he could become

with heskey, its about what he is now

surely fowlers merits werent as disputed as this, the pros and antis didnt seem so, ...forceful

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:56 (twenty-one years ago)

also if we don't beat iceland by two clear goals on saturday, do japan get to go to euro 2004 instead of us?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

We are forgetting that:

1) Any defence featuring Silvestre at its heart is weak as Kaliber. Ditto Fabby.

2) The French midfield is good going forward, but lacks bite.

3) European teams really don't like it up 'em - big lad with back to goal is v useful. He'll gets freeekicks aplenty for starters.

When oh when oh when will people stop wanking over the bloody French team. They are good, but not that good. They are eminently beatable - remember your cliches - there are no easy games in international football, and this applies to France too.

Others observations - Scholes on form is a nailed on certain starter, but hasn't been on form really, and even less so for England - his england performances of late have been full of bad decision making, poor tackling and generally being very unscholes like - move lose their flow and pace when he gets involved, whereas Gerrard's interventions are exhilierating and pacey and must frighten the feck out of any team we might play. Also, beckham and neville have a superb understanding on the right - we missed that in the World Cup, and we now have Gerrard off the back of his best ever season. Why are we so down on ourselves? We've got the best fucking team I can remember us taking to a tournament for ages - the previous lots have been good squads who could maybe do something - we've now got a team that should do something, and they're all fit. C'mon!

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:01 (twenty-one years ago)

It's true that last night, though really bad for an hour, was supposed to be a learning experience, so a team playing well against England is a good thing. What we have to hope is that some learning was done.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

England should so have picked Macca when he was at Real Madrid. He went tere as a flashy winger, and they turned him into a proper footballer.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

England exerted total dominance though for the first half hour - exactly how they should be playing. How can they play like that for 90mins, thats the question...

Scholes should never, ever, EVER be allowed to tackle. He is rubbish at it. He just cannot do it. He shouldn't really be in a position to do it.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

c'mon Dave, pi$$ poor tackling has always been a feature of the Ginger Runt's game, remember that game against Sweden in 99?

and I think a midfield with Vieira in it can't be accused of lacking bite. agree on other points though

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think that's true. First two years at Madrid were the best of his career. Then his pace went and that was everything about his game gone.

The reason he got frozen out of the England team is that performance against (I think) Albania.

And leave Joe Cole alone people or I will fucking kill you with a axe.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it will be - as much as SGE's teams tend to be slightly dull at times, he does appear to learn and get stuff from his friendlies - lets not forget that he's only lost one competitive match. That's a cracking record; it might even be the best England one thus far.

So, best record as coach, best squad, all fit, some teething troubles, get em ironed out, others teams not prepared thinking england weak, bish bosh, england win, closely followed by end of history.

x-post - I think there's a style to the way Scholes and Beckham tackle (ie, they're shite at it and not only don't get the ball but also get booked often too). Scholes can't tackle, but when he fells his performance slipping, he'll run and run to get the ball and do something right, but will increase his headless chickenness and thus render us a man down.

Though to be fair, it was amazing in how many of the chances england had, you could see Scholes had found good space in the box and wasn't used...

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:08 (twenty-one years ago)

what Heskey is now = not international class. You know this.

This notion of him scaring French defenders is odd. His first touch isn't good enough to scare most premiership defenders.

The stats are not great for J. Cole, but this showboating thing is really overstated. He can get PAST defenders, for goodness sake. The last player to be able to do that for England = Gazza? I've seen Cole play several times this year and he's always looked good. He makes defenders unsure whether to back-pedal or dive-in and this often takes them out of the game. Don't forget, Ranieri didn't really give him a run - if only Sven would have confidence in him as a game breaker for the last 30 mins or even a start instead of.....Beckham, I reckon he'd do really well.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave B i'd sooner wank over France than Brazil (also beatable tho teams just seem to fail to really realise this and go for it) myself but the problem is they haven't had a big challenge since the World Cup, tho that was a freakish blip as far as i'm concerned, and not really a true reflection on their quality as a side, just as Germany's runner-up position didn't really reflect their quality as a side (they were and are deeply mediocre)...France and Brazil are still the two best international sides out there right now, yet neither are perhaps the full monty, which is a reflection of other teams inadequacies as much as their own, tho it's also kinda cool because the gap has closed so much between so many nations (i.e. Poland, USA, Japan, Cameroon, Ireland, Romania, Ukraine, Australia all kinda equally 'good')

Only three teams can win Euro 2004

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

The players are just getting used to playing again, after the end of the season.

France are v good.

Heskey is fucking shit (he's not gonna bully anybody) but we may not have anybody better.

beckham is no leader, the captaincy should be given to gerrard, but it won't be.

massive x-post

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

i think Heskey is international class if not actually a truly excellent player

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Mike: leave him alone? I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole.

Looking good + rub stats = flattering to deceive. If he's that good then he'll come through but he needs to convert the going past people into creating actual chances. I'll shut up now.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:11 (twenty-one years ago)

The liverpool mafia has a big presence on this board.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

as hinted upthread Sven has practially turned England into Germany except they're still lacking that ultimate resolve and self-belief, that's the only thing missing from England winning trophies (not actual quality, i believe we have that)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:14 (twenty-one years ago)

emile Heskey now plays for Birmingham Julio, in case you haven't been keeping up wityh your football news.

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I just wish England had someone better than Emile to do that job, someone less easily discouraged, and someone whose sack-of-spuds impression was not so convincing.

Errrrrr, kof kof Chris'utt'n, kof kof. England have ALWAYS been like Germany.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

and? doesn't mean there is no loyalty to former players.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Various points:

- Joe Cole could be the new gazza, but gazza knew when to give and when to go with it - Cole doesn't. Gazza made space and then someone had to come and close him down making new space - Gazza always played the ball at the moment of maximum opportunity. Cole's got talent in spades, but is lacking in football intelligence.

Steve - your desire to have the kantian team-in-itself (as opposed to the way we actually know it - through ludic tournaments) means that you have a blind spot - France are good but had a duff tournament. And lo, what's-a-coming? A tournament! So their good-news is a potential; their ability to not be able to transfer their paper quality to grass is known. The end result is that england win.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread needs more Julio. Keep it coming, boy.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

No, ask Leeds.

And anyway, I think I'm the only Liverpool fan on this thread.

and good good call on Chris Sutton

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:20 (twenty-one years ago)

is this mentioning of gazza the football thread equivilant of godwin's law?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

how many games have heskey played for birmingham so far?

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

oof! that hurt Ken

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Too many people on here think Joe Cole is some kind of circus freak.

I'm going to find out where you live and put a poo through your letterboxes.

Chris Sutton? Am I awake?

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm tired of England's mediocrity. Some of these players need a kick up the ... ankle?

I'm irked by the way that when a player gets injured, people worry on about that, and forget that he did nowt before he was injured.

Well done, though, Japan.

― the bluefox, Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Heard Radio 5's "football correspondent" this morning say an injury to David Beckham was "less significant" than an injury to Gary Neville - mind you after the rubbish Beckham was serving up last night he could have point. Nice tattoo David.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

kantian? ludic? blimey Mourinho's not wasting any time...

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm on a mission to show Mark Perryman what philosophy football is all about.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I approve! but France transfer their paper quality to grass repeatedly!!! unless you think beating Germany 3-0 in Germany is ENTIRELY down to Germany being crap, or that it was just a friendly. I wish France had played decent teams in their qualifying group so I could defend them better but still...

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Joe Cole came on, flicked the ball up, did a stepover and promptly gave it straight to Viera. Lampard gave him a "that's why you're always on the bench, ponce face" look.
-- Mikey G (...), March 25th, 2004.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Different Mikey G.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

your not-evil twin?

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Graham Taylor was a Turnip in 1992 - Sven is a Stoopid Swede in 2004 unless:

Replace: Scoles with Lampard, as attacking midfielder
play Beckham: Wide Right Midfield ..for crossing ability
Central Midfield Guvnor: Gerrard
Play Bridge: Wide Left Midfield

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd forgotten about Chris Sutton.

Oh! I've forgotten about him again! That's better.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Dave B otm, France aren't that amazing, crappy defence and keeper. And they did crap 2 years ago, yes you'd expect them to bounce back but England have the squad to get a draw, no doubt about that, on a good day I see no reason why they can't win.

English defence was terrible last night though.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:31 (twenty-one years ago)

actually G Neville did well as an effective 'wing back' reminiscent of '96. Beckham usually does well playing further in but not last night annoyingly.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Gerrard as central midfield guvnor = abject stupidity. Did you see him going forward yesterday? He was immense. Why sacrifice that just so he can sit in front of the defenders, tackle and distribute?

If you're going to play a proper holding midfielder then out of the current squad go for Butt, or even (cue irrepressible hilarity) Phil Neville, who should never play fullback again.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Chris Sutton canal barge dog poo joke to thread.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:33 (twenty-one years ago)

"last night"

xxxpost

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Tim Hopkins for England manager! With Dave Boyle as his assistant.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

They're the wrong nationality

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Can I be the 'spiritual guide' then?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Look I am not saying France are a truly classic team, I am just saying they are BETTER than pretty much any other team out there right now. This doesn't mean England won't beat them (they might) or they might not make it to the final (indeed they might not) - but it's perfectly understandable for them to be favourites for this tournament alongside Portugal. The only other team I can see winning it is Italy and that's only because they're a) Italy and b) vaguely good, as they were four years ago...the Dutch, Spanish, Germans, English and Czechs all seem to be too buggy. This will either have a positive effect on the tournament (unpredictability ala this last season's Champions League) or a negative effect (no team plays to their full ability/potential, we feel short-changed, Michael bloody Ballack scores a header in the 68th minute)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Italy's midfield is a bit dodgy, but they're still the only team I can't envisage England beating.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:37 (twenty-one years ago)

English defence was terrible last night though

they had pretty much NOTHING to do in the first half lest we forget

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:37 (twenty-one years ago)

shuddup steve: France are crap, they only won the thing 4 years ago, and didn't do great two years ago but so didn't most european teams in a really crazy tournament.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

funny i can see England beating Italy tho i very much doubt they will get the chance to play each other. i'd rather Group B was Group C or D tho.

France are crap = Spurs are a TINY club

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Hopkins = comedy

― the bellefox, Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Italy's midfield is a bit dodgy, but they're still the only team I can't envisage England beating.

THis could be true but I think England could lose to virtually every other team in the tournament too

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:40 (twenty-one years ago)

My midfield formation is different to Svens, less diamiond..more focus on width and getting crosses in. Both Gerrard/ Lampard can mix and match in the central midfield zone.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:40 (twenty-one years ago)

"A really crazy tournament!"

What the badger's arse are you talking about, Julio?

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Euro 2000 was a good tournament and fairly sane as i recall, no real shocks other than Turkey and Romania making the quarters.

Dadaismus remember, England are actually very very difficult to actually BEAT (as opposed to outplay but only draw with or whatever), as statistics blah blah

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I have a worrying suspicion that even I know more about football than Julio.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes stevem, I'm contradicting myself here - the old German analogy again

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:43 (twenty-one years ago)

It is a Christmassy kind of Diamond

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:43 (twenty-one years ago)

France did badly in the World Cup because their best player was injured for the first couple of games and limped through the remainder, Robert Pires didn't play at all and they hadn't played a competetive fixture in five years. Their performance in the World Cup has no bearing on how they'll play in this tournament - if anything fear of failure will spur them on.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Remind me how crazy World Cup 2002 really was. The huge upset of Brazil winning? The host nations going further than you'd expect them to away from home? Bad refereeing?

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

MDC OTM: winning Euro 200 without playing a competitive fixture just shows how their supposed 'quality' is all hype.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

2002 = Carry On Hiddink

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Euro 2000 obv. I bet there was plenty of fizzing it in the mixer in Euro 200, though perhaps not as many Big Lads.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:47 (twenty-one years ago)

they really need to get rid of that rule that says the world cup holders win the euro championships automatically.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

The fans picked up litter upon leaving, and there was a huge shriek everytime the host nations came within 40 yards of goal. It was uber crazy.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Italy won Euro 200 by virtue of being the only team in it. There was a late appeal by the Visogoths, but they couldn't play their qualifiers seeing as a nomadic people, they didn't really go in for huge works of public architecture, and indeed, playing at home was a concept they found difficult to conceptualise.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:49 (twenty-one years ago)

The fans picked up litter upon leaving, and there was a huge shriek everytime the host nations came within 40 yards of goal.

The shrieks were coming from the match officials

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:50 (twenty-one years ago)

they really need to get rid of that rule that says the world cup holders win the euro championships automatically.

this has only happened once, and they deserved to win it on account of playing better than anyone else for the majority of the tournament (yeh yeh Italy better in the final BOLLOCKS WHO CARES)

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:52 (twenty-one years ago)

One final point. The whole purpose of taking a squad to these tournaments is because you have to adapt to different circumstances. We may need a draw in the final game to go through. Better to play a holding midfielder (say Butt) than an attacking one (Lampard, Scholes etc). Switzerland may lack height in defence, therefore Heskey could cause problems. Ifs and buts, change and adapt.

Blah blah

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:52 (twenty-one years ago)

apparently when Sven was discussing the diamond formation with Tord he was heard to remark "Does my Butt look shit in this?"

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:54 (twenty-one years ago)

South korea and turkey were in the semis. I'm not saying that its bad, i loved the tournament, but France did underperform.

''they really need to get rid of that rule that says the world cup holders win the euro championships automatically''

[no knowledge] pity brazil are not entering this year [/no knowledge]

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

???

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

haha I can't wait for the euro 2004 threads.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

there should be only one, tho i've already started a thread to arrange the watching of games in suitable environs

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

china has a better chance of winning the euro 2004 than england this year etc. etc.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there a French pub in London............... oh I've done this before

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Turkey = lots of Bayer Leverkusen and Galatasaray players = much Champions League experience = no shock whatsoever in them getting as far as they did.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

(For an 'outsider', this has been a great, great read so far. Do carry on, please.
Well I may - I actually, well, do - love Holland lots, and so on
but for some reason I've never been indifferent to how England fares in international tounaments. ...Which may or may not have samthung to do with seeing misty black-&-white li'l footballers running around on tiny-tiny TV screens at the time of the 1966 World Cup, as a kid...
Um, dunno.
I hope Latvia'll score. And hope so will England ;)

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

i still think china has a great chance.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Turkey would not have got as far as they did had they played a European side, which they didn't, at all. Nor did Germany. No, Brazil got them all instead, grrrrr.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

remember how they remained undefeated throughout Euro 2000, and only missed out on the trophy due to technicalities.

xpost

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Turkey... no shock whatsoever in them getting as far as they did.

Didn't get too far this time, though :)

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:13 (twenty-one years ago)

seeing misty black-&-white li'l footballers running around on tiny-tiny TV screens at the time of the 1966 World Cup

We've been seeing it ever since ........ for 38 years

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Turkey are the Millwall of International football.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

funny how i ended up feeling sorry for Turkey in that respect. I think Turkey would fare better in the actual tournament than Latvia, who are going to have work hard to not just become the whipping boys let's face it. Good luck to them though.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

ooh ooh did you see where the team that won teh Russian cup was from? Gorno in the Chechen republic, they now enetr the UEFA cup, as do Millwall.............

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm looking forward to see Russia play in Euro 2004. I have no idea what most of the players look like due to scarcity of stickers.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I've got a bunch of Russian swapsies I think dude.

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Did I tell you I bought 12 packets and got all swapsies? My album is only 2/3 full.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:47 (twenty-one years ago)

aw bless, yes you did tell us mikey. i got loads of russians in the packets i got in exeter and am only two bulgarians and two swedes off completing those teams (plenty of other gaps, like two thirds of the england team, for a start)

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I AM WORRIED ABOUT MISSING FRANCE VS ENGLAND

WHAT SHOULD I DO?

― the bluefox, Wednesday, 2 June 2004 13:59 (twenty-one years ago)

plenty of other gaps, like two thirds of the england team, for a start

well ain't most of this thread mostly about that, eh?

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

take yr caps lock off?

why are you worried PF?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Listen to Move it by Cliff Richard. A fine rock 'n' roll song.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Bull & Mouth for France v England? would have to get there hella early perhaps

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:02 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, Euro 2004-related FAPpage in London

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:04 (twenty-one years ago)

what can possibly be so important that you could miss England v France? (I'm looking for your own wedding or funeral here dude)

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:10 (twenty-one years ago)

does your telly not have itv PF?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:16 (twenty-one years ago)

top gear on BBC2, yo.

xpost

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Doesn't it clash with the top 40? It's the old footie vs Wes dilemma.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Were any of you lot in the Bull+Mouth for the first leg of the Arsenal v Chelsea Champions League game? 'Cos I was there.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Nah, we were all piled in some durty pub in Islington across the road from Club FT. Unless Chris, Vicky and others were there.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

no, we were in the red lion

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Bull & Mouth's big chunky tables irked me tho, perhaps it is not a wise venue for Franglandfest as i might be calling it

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I call it Agincourt II

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Didn't like it as a venue, got crowded and nowhere for peeps to sit

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

to be fair, if i'd thought about it, i would've moved all the furniture before it'd started...

...also i'd guess they'd take the pool table out of commission for such a big game.

actually, thinking about it, would the b&m even be open on a sunday...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

I was at ryan's bar to watch some improv. The first quintet was boring crap so I went upstairs and pires scored.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't been there in a while - Ryan's I mean

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:51 (twenty-one years ago)

all over vieira's shirt? xpost

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

The game's on ITV though. I may return to my constituency and prepare for disappointment. I'm not sure I see much need to be in the pub for this one...

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:53 (twenty-one years ago)

alan wilkinson and roger turner on the 16th (hope that doesn't clash with any good euro games).

http://www.l-m-c.org.uk/LMCframeset2.html

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 14:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Russia v Portugal and Greece v Spain, a couple of decent games there

― chris (chris), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 15:03 (twenty-one years ago)

i shall be watching england vs france in NYC

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 15:12 (twenty-one years ago)

1. O, yes, I remember about that CL game.

2. The Bull & Mouth is good, as footy pubs go.

3. My wedding will never happen.

4. My funeral, on the other hand: etc.

5. I do have ITV, and even watch it, sometimes.

6. I have never seen Top Gear.

7. I have not listened to the top 40 in years, but I still like the idea of doing so.

8. The reason I was going to miss England - France was that I had booked an aeroplane flight that clashed with it. This worried me a lot. The reaction from you lads confirms that I was right to be worried, and to try to do something about it.

9. I just did something about it. I am flying the next day. That is £15 that England have cost me already.

10. Tim H is quite correct: this is a game to watch at home. Pubs are really for games that you can't watch at home, which is most games. Some games you can watch at football grounds, I suppose, but that's a different story.

I am looking forward to watching this game at home, with some bottles of ale, and thinking: - And I changed my flight for *this*?

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 2 June 2004 16:35 (twenty-one years ago)

i watched Germany v England ('01) at home and regretted it, because in hindsight that was not a game to watch at home. i fear that watching this game at home i would be making the same mistake, even tho it is highly unlikely England will win 5-1.

― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

England-France is on a Sunday evening, no? Perfect....

There was an article in one of the broadsheets today about England's midfield last night which stated that all 4 of the starters are unable to tackle.
Scholes - commits fouls or slides off the pitch.
Beckham - thinks he can tackle but cannot.
Gerrard - has a tendency to go over the ball recklessly.
Lampard - barely even bothers.
Nicky Butt, for all that he is not as gifted as any of these, can at least tackle. Not as well as Roy Keane - who terrifies opponents with his tackling when hes on form and fit - but better than all those four.
So can Scott Parker. and maybe Owen Hargreaves. And Phil Neville.
But Viera is a great tackler, he'll be tapping ankles all match when they play France. Makelele is not too bad either in that department.
My point : a solid team needs at least one midfielder who can tackle.

― David Nolan (David N.), Wednesday, 2 June 2004 21:41 (twenty-one years ago)

All games are on telly n'est ce-pas?

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 3 June 2004 07:36 (twenty-one years ago)

all euro 2004 games will be covered on either bbc or itv, although bbc is doing some red button interactive fanny dangle with the last games of the group stage where you can flick between the two as they take place at the same time.

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 3 June 2004 07:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I approve wholeheartedly of interactive fannydangle.

Your most memorable sport-watching experiences, talk about them here

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 3 June 2004 07:42 (twenty-one years ago)

heh, i'm relying on etv & viasat sport,and a coupla russian channels & dsf to boot. and that should do just nicely :)

(in other words, i'll interact my own goddam fannydangle, provided the remote control funkshions at least half-decently)

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Thursday, 3 June 2004 07:48 (twenty-one years ago)

SO HOT RIGHT NOW!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Saturday, 5 June 2004 16:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Ok, so Gerrard can play the holding role when it suits him. And Scholes is a little genius as far as splitting defences with passes.

But this was Iceland, not France....

And what is it with Darius Vassell? Never looks any better than not bad for Villa, but put him in an England shirt and hes Ronaldo.

Oh yeah, and we made Holland look really ordinary tonight too...

― David Nolan (David N.), Saturday, 5 June 2004 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Scholesy's pass through to Owen was a fucking gem, and reaffirmed my faith in him. But as a confidence booster prior to the France game it can't be beaten - if England can find it in them to run at France in the way they did today they'll do alright. If they defend against Thierry Henry and co the way they defended that set piece, they will be right royally shafted.

Ledley King was so huge though. Apart from when he almost popped it into his own net.

Yes, Iceland aren't France, but come on, IAN WALKER?!! You're just mocking them now, Sven.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Saturday, 5 June 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/35/

― ..., Sunday, 6 June 2004 00:15 (twenty-one years ago)

it was just nice to see England score so many goals - haven't managed six since Luxembourg and the age of Mcmanaman

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 6 June 2004 12:20 (twenty-one years ago)

and yes Scholes actually played well and set up a few of the goals despite missing that early chance - not as bad as Joe Cole's miss tho. v impressed with Lampard and G Neville once again, i think the latter is really strong going foward tho the defending remains dubious all too often. is it me or is Sol out of sorts? nice to see Bridge get on the scoresheet. may have won him a start against the French.

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 6 June 2004 12:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Holland really looked pretty poor against Ireland. Their defending was awful, Van Der Meyde looked like quite the muppet, and their attacking threat was getting nullified by Andy O'Brien, Kenny Cunningham and Alan Maybury. Graham Barrett and Andy Reid were giving them kittens, and as for Robbie Keane... when that boy is on form, then people are in serious trouble.

I think Latvia might have been watching and feeling a bit hopeful.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Sunday, 6 June 2004 12:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Latvia might have been watching and feeling a bit hopeful.

UHUH??

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Sunday, 6 June 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Ireland's pace was really giving the Dutch defence problems. Bouma in particular looked terrible.

And, despite the maroon-and-whites' many other deficiencies, Pahars and Verkapovskis have most definitely got pace. Even if Pahars can't really shoot straight.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Sunday, 6 June 2004 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Ireland seem far superior to Switzerland and Russia now, it just ain't fair i tells ya

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 6 June 2004 14:04 (twenty-one years ago)

tho i suppose the Turks would feel that way re Latvia too

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 6 June 2004 14:05 (twenty-one years ago)

See revived Irish thread for more talk of that smashing display.

When did England last hit 6? I thought Luxembourg was 0-3 and 5-0?

I thought that the last time we hit that many might have been vs San Marino.

― the junefox, Sunday, 6 June 2004 14:06 (twenty-one years ago)

no it was 6-0 against Luxembourg, 2 from Macca on the day, Owen scored in the last minute after England were 5-0 up at half time

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 6 June 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I was there!

Mostly I was there because I wanted to go to the old Wembley before they knocked it down.

― Tim (Tim), Monday, 7 June 2004 07:51 (twenty-one years ago)

McCarra watch: the excellent Kevin McCarra had this to say in his Guardian review of Saturday's game:

"Only Joe Cole failed. With each superfluous trick the midfielder is adding more dead ends to the labyrinth in which his talent is trapped. There was a slight helplessness to Eriksson's smile when the subject cropped up and since he cannot afford to concentrate on Cole it may be Jose Mourinho, at Chelsea, who determines what becomes of him."

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 08:24 (twenty years ago)

I really wanted Joe Cole to set up a goal, or perhaps score one, on Saturday, even though that would have made me look like (even more of) a clown on here. He looked so unhappy and so uncertain.

And he missed that absolute sitter, it was terrible.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 08:32 (twenty years ago)

Is Lickle Joey eventually going to come across a monstrous half-man half-bull chimera in his labyrinth, and, if so, does that mean Sam Allardyce is going to sign him?

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 08:37 (twenty years ago)

It's possible that Joe's talent itself, trapped within its labyrinth, is half bull, but I hope not.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 08:41 (twenty years ago)

Tim, have a look at me blog.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 09:51 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/euro_2004/england/3785303.stm

which is a bit more hopeful than the news was this morning, which was basically "no terry for france game"...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 09:52 (twenty years ago)

Nick I think you're being a bit harsh, but then I started feeling sorry for Cole when I saw him looking so unhappy on Saturday. Maybe he's compensating. I'll be amazed if he's not one of the players Mourinho lets go if the Chelsea sellsea is as extensive as rumoured.

One does feel that footballers have to earn their flash-signifiers though. Like, you pitch up at a 3rd division game and see someone playing with white/silver/electric blue boots and think: you'd better be pretty good to justify *them*, sunshine. Why shouldn't a clogger wear white boots if he likes them? But we know he shouldn't.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 09:57 (twenty years ago)

Aye. It was the fact that no one else was wearing sunglasses, not Beckham, not Terry, not ANYONE, anf the sheer RUDENESS of wearing headphones! And flash-signifier ones at that!

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 10:01 (twenty years ago)

'sunshine'

I like Cole OK; I hope we buy him.

I liked McCarra's lines too - powerful.

― the bluefox, Tuesday, 8 June 2004 10:12 (twenty years ago)

I don't buy 'sunshine' as an excuse; NOBODY else needed them, and I doubt Cole has cataracts. He looked like a right eejit.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 10:59 (twenty years ago)

On the other hand, they made him look less ugly.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:29 (twenty years ago)

He needs all the help he can get

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:29 (twenty years ago)

John Terry needs sunglasses too then.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:32 (twenty years ago)

"Paul Scholes is so ugly when he was born the doctor took one look at him and slapped his mother" etc

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:35 (twenty years ago)

Paul Scholes - bastard love child of Paul Durkin and Zidane

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:43 (twenty years ago)

Man U family fun day 1994 - Dion Dublin, Scholes, and Alex Stepney

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:47 (twenty years ago)

A girl I knew at school fancied Dion Dublin. WHY?!

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:48 (twenty years ago)

or Nicky Butt playing James.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:49 (twenty years ago)

Dion Dublin - hung like a donkey. Plays like one too.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:49 (twenty years ago)

Dublin is hardly ugly. and he sax plays good - that always wins the ladies over.

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:49 (twenty years ago)

Musical footballers:

Gilberto Silva - mandolin
Nolberto Solano - trumpet

Any more?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:52 (twenty years ago)

footballers who look like musical instruments

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:52 (twenty years ago)

Poor Joey. That chance came too early for him. I don't think we'll see too much of him this month. But I still believe.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 11:54 (twenty years ago)

Alex Ferguson says Dion has a monster cock.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 12:01 (twenty years ago)

'sunshine' = what Hopkins said.

― the bluefox, Tuesday, 8 June 2004 14:50 (twenty years ago)

Aha!

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 14:57 (twenty years ago)

That reminds me of an interview with John Terry in this months FHM ( I don't read it or nuffink, it was in the canteen in work and theres a Euro 2004 section at the back so I had a flick through) wherin John Terry talks - unprompted - about the colossal size of Makele's cock. In a feature where he is asked to name a team based on different characteristics - i.e. Beck's right foot, Owen's pace etc.....he mentions Makele for his cock. I instantly lost all respect for him, for some reason. Terry, not Makelele.

― David N (David N.), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 20:07 (twenty years ago)

Makelele, I mean, not Makele.....

― David N (David N.), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 21:01 (twenty years ago)

LIKE HE NEEDS THE EXTRA LETTERS WHEN HE'S GOT AN ENORMOUS COCK!!

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 21:04 (twenty years ago)

makelle

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 01:33 (twenty years ago)

haha that didn't work so well

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 01:33 (twenty years ago)

one month passes...

Blimey. Didn't see this one coming

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:00 (twenty years ago)

Bizarre. Kind of understandable though. Is he The Beta Band of international football?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:23 (twenty years ago)

I can see why he's doing it though - Scholes is 29, by the next World Cup he'll be part of an aging midfield if he's in there with Beckham as well. Quitting now, when England are about to go into a qualifying group which is frankly easy gives enough time for a new midfield unit to gel properly.

Haha, either that or the stage is set for Joe Cole after all.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:27 (twenty years ago)

Ferguson probably made him.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:28 (twenty years ago)

Made him out of what?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:29 (twenty years ago)

Ginger snaps and Hula Hoops.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:31 (twenty years ago)

and potatoes

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:40 (twenty years ago)

Actually, pork and fuzzy felt.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:40 (twenty years ago)

That wee bastard kept Scotland out of the 2000 European Championships. Well, him and Christian Dailly.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:42 (twenty years ago)

scholes position on the LEFT side of midfield should now be occupied by a proper left-sided player. gareth barry - while admittedly no better than decent - is the best man for the job. there is plenty of competition for central midfield - some of it very good indeed. a disappointing loss for england - but scholes was being (foolishly) played in a position that didn't suit him at euro 2004 (midfield looked muddled and overcrowded as a result) so some good may come out of this.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:49 (twenty years ago)

Left Side of Midfield = give Matty Taylor of Portsmouth a chance in a friendly

lightening quick
confident
takes the opposition on
a good crosser
not afraid to shoot outside the box

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:51 (twenty years ago)

rooney should play left wing.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:52 (twenty years ago)

29 is a silly age to retire at, but it's his call really.

questions:

how motivated by his disappointing engerland form may this have been, or is it solely to preserve his physical fitness for longer?

was he irked at being played on the left, and may it have played a part?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:53 (twenty years ago)

not afraid to shoot outside the box
resulting in no goals in the Premiership from 30 appearances last season??

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:54 (twenty years ago)

haha!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:55 (twenty years ago)

30 games and 12 extra as sub.

he did score a cracker against Liverpool, but hey, even Stephan Henchoz scores one every now and again

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:56 (twenty years ago)

but he scored about 20 the season before!

bless the little ginger nut, eases Sven's selection headache somewhat

whenever great footballers from other countries were questioned about who the danger men from England were it always seemed to be Scholes's name that came up first, funny.

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:58 (twenty years ago)

Solution =

― ___ (___), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:58 (twenty years ago)

last season Harry Redknapp played most games: 442 which meant that Taylor had to do far more defensive work

when pompey play 3-5-2 - Matty can get forward - he has scored some superb goals for Pompey.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:58 (twenty years ago)

in the 1st division, yes. against teams like Rotherham.

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:59 (twenty years ago)

the danger comes from his crap tackles.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:59 (twenty years ago)

rooney should play left wing.

i would've said yeh but he was so prolific at euro2004 that it seems daft to play him anywhere else now - the new first choice striker for England, ahead of Owen

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 13:59 (twenty years ago)

Rooney left wing? Is this some part of the tradition of Liverpool - get a good player, then play them out of position.

Scholes retiring should be good for one thing - see if Beckham likes it in the middle, and put Shaun Wright-Phillips on the right.

― ___ (___), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:01 (twenty years ago)

that's a good point, I want to see SWP in an England shirt, just to see if he can cut it to start with, I reckon he would. He was the best thing about City last season (I know that's not difficult though...)

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:02 (twenty years ago)

Matty was part of a Pompey Squad last season that finished above:

Blackburn
Spurs
Man City
Everton

all who have had England players in recent times.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:03 (twenty years ago)

Matty Taylor and SWP - would destroy the opposition and create chances for the strikers.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:04 (twenty years ago)

stevem otm re:rooney - why take someone out of a position they're revelling in?

rooney and owen still the main strike pairing. the mediocre cover strikers - vassel and heskey - should be replaced with better, younger cover strikers - carlton cole, stead, defoe, smith - all worth a look.

beckham should stay on the right. him and wright-phillips may fight it out for that position. there is plenty competition for the central positions. left side? any other suggestions? return to the diamond?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:04 (twenty years ago)

Taylor?! Lets just throw in Matthew Etherington and be done with it then.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:05 (twenty years ago)

but weasle diesel alan smith is shit! vassell fantastic

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:06 (twenty years ago)

left side there aren't many other options - Jonathan Greening, Seth Johnson and Alan Thompson

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:07 (twenty years ago)

If we're in the realms of stupid fantasy land I'm kind of hoping Rohan Ricketts has a good season at Spurs - he looked like he had real potential at the start of last season, nippy, left-sided, good with the ball, scored a couple of cracking goals. Shame he's about two feet tall and seven stone though. That's probably years down the line though.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:08 (twenty years ago)

martian's taylor suggestion is not *completely* ridiculous - in that i think they should try an ok *natural* left-sider, rather than trying to shoe-horn in someone who does excellently in a different position.

ken - agreed smith is not brilliant. still prob better than vassel though. defoe is *certainly* better than both.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:08 (twenty years ago)

Matt DC your news Spurs management team put in a 2 million offer for Taylor plus an overpriced donkey [Richards] that cost 8 million - Pompey rejected it.

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:09 (twenty years ago)

i bet you'd all love it if duff was english, wouldn't you? :-P

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:10 (twenty years ago)

Blackburn
Spurs
Man City
Everton

all who have had England players in recent times.

Speaking as a City fan, the only player we've had in recent times has been David James, and that is by effect of buying the England goalkeeper.

SWeeP was excellent last season. He needs to get his crossing sorted a little, but he is an incredible prospect, and his low centre of gravity helps him cause all sorts of problems.

Left midfielders I don't know of any. I know we need one at club level, and there are very few (that lad at Notts Forest is a natural left midfielder isn't he?).

In my slightly bias way, I would pick SWP above Beckham, though that is hardly surprising.

― ___ (___), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:11 (twenty years ago)

Duff may put in a Chelsea transfer request - if Chelsea go for a PSV link up with a Robben and Batman - selection

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:14 (twenty years ago)

that lad at forest? you mean andy reid? if so, you can't have him. he's irish.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:14 (twenty years ago)

the way calamity performed for England - the definition of player is stretching it

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:15 (twenty years ago)

Seth Johnson is NOT an option. He's fucked his cruciate and is recovering by getting pissed in Dawlish.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:17 (twenty years ago)

Ah, bugger. How do the Irish produce so many left footers (all pun intended)

― ___ (___), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:18 (twenty years ago)

All through Euro 2004 I felt that they should have pulled Scholes, put Wayne Bridge in at left back and moved Ashley Cole up to left midfield.

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:19 (twenty years ago)

exactly MW, that would be my preferred as well, if they canm learn to cover for each other that partnership would be great

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:21 (twenty years ago)

Can Scott Parker play on the left?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:25 (twenty years ago)

I just thought Scholes looked unpromising and Cole is so much more threatening on the attack then he seems to be going back.

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:27 (twenty years ago)

i thought cole was tres solid at the back - put the shackles on mr.ronaldo fo sho. again, why switch? no love (or even cautious respect) for gareth barry on this thread? you silly billies.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:29 (twenty years ago)

no, Barry is ok, he had a good season last time round, I reckon he should finally break into the squad this season.

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:31 (twenty years ago)

As soon as everyone gives up on this "Joe Cole is a talent who will shine on the international scene" nonsense the better. He really flatters to deceive, as his discount sale by Chelsea in January will testify.

― ___ (___), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:32 (twenty years ago)

and also he looks like the dude from eastenders.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:32 (twenty years ago)

who actually is also called Joe

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:32 (twenty years ago)

my suggestion -

heskey and alan smith as centre-backs. switch beckham to left back and bring in matt taylor on the right. owen and rooney on the right and left wings respectively. play portsmouth's steve stone in the centre of midfield, alongside shaun derry. the rest of the team picks itself - luke chadwick and seth johnston up front

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:33 (twenty years ago)

Keeper?

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:40 (twenty years ago)

Tim Henman?

― Michael White (Hereward), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 14:40 (twenty years ago)

talking of potential future England players:

Pompey signal their intention to buy Michael Carrick from West Ham !

Pompey Offer Club Record Bid For West Ham Ace Portsmouth FC - The Official Site 15:16
http://www.pompeyfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10396~547441,00.html

Pompey confirm Carrick bid
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/3532332.stm

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 15:26 (twenty years ago)

I'm not sure why we are talking about crossing as being important - I realise Owen and Rooney can score with headers, but it's hardly their greatest strength. Movement and passing is what we want to work with them.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:18 (twenty years ago)

there aren't many better crossers of the ball than G Neville and Beckham anyway

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:23 (twenty years ago)

Why no love for Alan Thomson? Only one mention up there...

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 16:42 (twenty years ago)

Something that continues to amaze me: I have never seen an interview with Paul Scholes or heard his voice

― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 17:03 (twenty years ago)

he's mute

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 17:11 (twenty years ago)

enough with the talking, anyway

london fancy a kick about again FAKA?

let your feet do the talking kids. i'm playing left wing despite being prolific

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 09:26 (twenty years ago)

The only reason I am talking about SWeeP's crossing is, from watching him the last three seasons, I know it is the weakest part of his game. Purely observational from having seen him so much.

England players always get picked on their all-round game, rather than their necessary ability to play to the team's strengths.

― ___ (___), Wednesday, 4 August 2004 09:34 (twenty years ago)

one month passes...

gerrard out for next two england matches. how will they cope? well, the matches are easy enough, so i suppose the answer is "comfortably enough". but who will play?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 14:25 (twenty years ago)

Butt if he's fit, Hargreaves...tho i suppose the onus may be on Sven to pick another debutant

― teh pow! (blueski), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 14:28 (twenty years ago)

Beckham and Lampard in central midfield with Wright-Phillips on the right?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 14:30 (twenty years ago)

I think Matt is right, or at least I hope he is.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 21 September 2004 16:54 (twenty years ago)

one month passes...

stewart downing?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 22 October 2004 10:14 (twenty years ago)

.....won't get a chance any day soon. Sven is too conservative + he will either go with the diamond or Cole/Bridge in a 4-4-2.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 22 October 2004 10:36 (twenty years ago)

three weeks pass...

so back to the actual football - what went wrong last night?

back of composure/too many aimless long balls giving away possession? no one putting decent (ball winning) tackles in?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 18 November 2004 13:22 (twenty years ago)

all 11 players and all substitutes had a terrible game. it's not often that all your players have a bad night at the same time, and it's quite something to behold when it occurs.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Thursday, 18 November 2004 13:26 (twenty years ago)

Spain played better than they have in some time, locking a not-arsed England midfield out altogether with relative ease, so credit to them really (apart from the pathetic diving/exaggerating as usual)

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Thursday, 18 November 2004 13:35 (twenty years ago)

All the players playing for Man Utd/Chelsea/Arsenal were trying to show their rivals in the worst possible light so that the subsequent press hammering would dent their confidence giving them a crucial psychological advantage in the title race.

The only England moment I saw that was any good whatsoever was Paul Robinson's penalty save. But then I did switch off in a mixture of disgust and disinterest after Matthew Upson was bought on.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 18 November 2004 13:40 (twenty years ago)

two months pass...

That was absolutely insane. That second half midfield made no sense at all!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 21:40 (twenty years ago)

I could see the point of 4-3-3 in the first half, giving Sven the freedom to play Wright-Phillips and Beckham at the same time with no natural left-sider. But why didn't he play SWP on the right and Downing on the left in a 4-4-2? That's what we'll have to do in the event of an injury crisis.

And more pertinently, what was the point of picking Johnson and then playing him on the right wing? Complete wasted opportunity.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)

I think Soccernet might have said it all "Sven Wastes New Talent".

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 21:53 (twenty years ago)

ps: 10 man Canada is actually WINNING!

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 21:54 (twenty years ago)

Absolutely: that post-substitution line-up looked like a pure 4-4-2, and surely he'd already seen that 4-3-3 wasn't cutting it.

I liked Hansen saying, in regard to the idea of learning from friendlies "I defy anyone to have learnt anything from that." And Lineker's parting shot "Not exactly a thriller at the Villa. They should have played at Birmingham City - it was absolutely sh...ocking."

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

Haven't seen it yet. How did Holland look?

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

Strange in black and white halves

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 22:20 (twenty years ago)

That's their ant-racism kit, right?

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 22:22 (twenty years ago)

Yes, I think so. A bit of orange here and there would've gone nicely with it, to remind us that were still actually The Dutch.

They played alright, with an experienced team.

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 22:28 (twenty years ago)

So a draw was a decent result?

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 22:30 (twenty years ago)

that was shite, but this made me laugh:

I reckon that Shaun Derry [ex Pompey captain] now of Crystal Palace - will break into the England squad next season.
A tough tackler, strong, excellent passing abilty, 100 % commitment.

well, he's getting the oddgame for Forest

― Porkpie (porkpie), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

xpost

Not sure there was too much 'decent' about the game. The one player I was looking forward to seeing - SWP - made three or four howling errors. The Dutch hit a post and knocked it about in their unruffled way. And that's about all I remember. For much of the first half, I was concentrating on the cricket, anyway, which was stupidly exciting, even on the radio.

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 22:37 (twenty years ago)

SWP looked like Defoe in his first couple of games, so keen to score he was just lashing out, but the way he went round that Dutch player just before one of the aforementioned howlers was fantastic.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

Yes, Matt. He was like a motorbike rounding a bend he was that close to the ground. Fabulous balance. And of course his England career will settle down.

Coming back to kits, I notice that Portugal wore the same kit as Holland last night, albeit with their own badge. Was this a Nike thing? Was it a fatuous publicity stunt, cf Benetton attaching itself to 'causes' in the 80s?

― Japanese Giraffe (Japanese Giraffe), Thursday, 10 February 2005 07:36 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/4252871.stm

Pretty much I fear. Or at least, they are pushing it hard and not purely out of the good of their hearts. I am starting to like Gary Neville. And I'm a Liverpool fan!! What's wrong with me?

― Crackity (Crackity Jones), Thursday, 10 February 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

That was a really stupid match. Sven is either some kind of warped genius (still no evidence for this after all this time) or he's completely lost his touch. The most effective, marauding, goalhanging centre forward of the year plays as a defensive right winger? wtf?? Andy Johnson must be furious.

It was laughable. England friendlies are just fucking awful. Sack the manager.

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 10 February 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

jeez what a disgusting little shit Gary Neville is. so he refuses to wear an antiracism top because it somehow "cheapens the message", but plays for man utd, kings of footballing merchandising. how many £40 shirts do they put out a season?

― zappi (joni), Thursday, 10 February 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

sorry, how many shirts MADE BY NIKE does Man Utd put out (and Neville wear every weekend in front of tens of thousands)

― zappi (joni), Thursday, 10 February 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

yeah but they don't pretend to be fighting for a cause when they sell those millions of shirt innit, they just pretend to be in some kind of opera of dreams instead.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 10 February 2005 13:07 (twenty years ago)

That's their ant-racism kit, right?

http://www.psisolutions.com/images/metal-magnifying-glass.jpg http://www.omar.ru/home/adv/kettle/kettle-3.jpg

― DJ Mencap0))), Thursday, 10 February 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

eight months pass...

So, Sven unveils his squad for the Argentina game and Jamie Carragher is dropped in favour of Jonathan Woodgate and PAUL KONCHESKY. And still no Scott Parker despite the inclusion of Alan Smith in the squad, presumably as a midfielder. I'd understand if Parker was a racist thug in the Joey Barton mould but, seriously, why?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Sunday, 6 November 2005 22:36 (nineteen years ago)

Woodgate injured tonight

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Sunday, 6 November 2005 22:43 (nineteen years ago)

Ah, I missed that. Still, HAHAHAHAHAHA FUNNIEST CAREER EVER!

Makes Carragher's omission all the more baffling through. Has Sven accepted he's fourth in the pecking order now?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Sunday, 6 November 2005 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

carragher is injured too.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Sunday, 6 November 2005 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/articles/PA_SPOA17525781131306493A?source=PA%20Feed

"Carragher has also been ruled out through injury, joining not only Woodgate, but also Ashley Cole, Gary Neville, Chris Kirkland, Owen Hargreaves and Kieron Dyer on the absentee list."

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Sunday, 6 November 2005 22:55 (nineteen years ago)

i think parker should be called up, though. he's doing an accomplished job as a defensive midfielder, and can be called upon to play a more creative role if required.

i'm guessing sven is going to try out a diamond in this game? beckham right, gerrard left, lampard at the tip and carrick/king/smith(?) at the base?

smith was excellent today, but i don't think that should gloss over the fact that he has looked lost in his new role for the most part. its strange that his midfield conversion has *boosted* his chance of an england squad place, when it hasn't really been a success, and has only really succeeded in taking him away from his proper position.

the fact that sven has picked crouch, despite his poor form, suggests that he will probably stick with him for a while. (i mean, if he's getting in the squad on this form - there isn't really much he can do to *lose* his place between now and the summer, is there?)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Sunday, 6 November 2005 23:05 (nineteen years ago)

Oh god, not Smith as the back man in a diamond. He surely can't be contemplating that.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 6 November 2005 23:14 (nineteen years ago)

probably not (at least not for the full 90 minutes) - though i'm guessing smith is included in the squad as a midfielder, and i think his assets as a midfielder would suit the defensive position the most? his performance today was all about tough tackling and breaking up attacks, rather than creativity or goalscoring.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Sunday, 6 November 2005 23:23 (nineteen years ago)

(to clarify: i'm certainly not saying smith *should* fill that role for england, i'm saying that its probably the role sven sees him in, if he's planning to go with a diamond?)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Sunday, 6 November 2005 23:25 (nineteen years ago)

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