let's hire a hitman to kill jon williams:
"All Style, No Substance"massive f*ck-off image
..and redefining 'enormous' onHow are they going to end ILX?
I will match every dollar raised with one towards a hitman.
-- Andrew Farrell (afarrel...), June 22nd, 2004 3:57 PM. (afarrell) (tracklink) (later)
Remember that pot we have for collecting money for a hit man? Can I contribute about £1000, please? -- People love Gravity and Evolution! (masonicboo...), June 23rd, 2004 9:26 AM. (kate) (later)
Well a ferry ride to Rochester is $55, we could outfit Sean in a trenchcoat for another $50... -- Mr Noodles (infinitecow...), June 23rd, 2004 11:22 AM. (Mr Noodles) (later)
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:18 (twenty years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:20 (twenty years ago)
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:21 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:21 (twenty years ago)
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:22 (twenty years ago)
― St. Nicholas (Nick A.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:23 (twenty years ago)
JW, do you have a lawyer? Maybe Tad can offer some consultation (phlbt).
Pitchfork headline tomorrow:ILM Mods Offer Retraction to Noize Dude
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:24 (twenty years ago)
― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:25 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:26 (twenty years ago)
― St. Nicholas (Nick A.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:26 (twenty years ago)
― AdamL :') (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:26 (twenty years ago)
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:27 (twenty years ago)
"Me and Slim, we take hits out on each other all the time! Our relationship is just like that, you know? Beers one day, sniper rifles the next."
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:27 (twenty years ago)
― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:28 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:29 (twenty years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:29 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:30 (twenty years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:30 (twenty years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:31 (twenty years ago)
― Ade (Adrian Langston), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:33 (twenty years ago)
― lauren (laurenp), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:34 (twenty years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:35 (twenty years ago)
In the post-Apocalyptic world I call oversized wrench as my weapon of choice.
― Gribowitz (Lynskey), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:36 (twenty years ago)
― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:37 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:38 (twenty years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:39 (twenty years ago)
― Ian c=====8 (orion), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:40 (twenty years ago)
― deanomgwtf!!!p%3Fmsgid%3D4581997 (deangulberry), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:44 (twenty years ago)
― j e r e m y (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:45 (twenty years ago)
― Laura E (laurae55), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:46 (twenty years ago)
― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:51 (twenty years ago)
― Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:53 (twenty years ago)
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:53 (twenty years ago)
― St. Nicholas (Nick A.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:55 (twenty years ago)
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:59 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 20:59 (twenty years ago)
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 21:02 (twenty years ago)
― Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 21:03 (twenty years ago)
― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 21:34 (twenty years ago)
― Ian c=====8 (orion), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 21:53 (twenty years ago)
― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 21:55 (twenty years ago)
― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 22:26 (twenty years ago)
― Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 22:33 (twenty years ago)
ILX Reloaded!http://www.thai.net/pichate1964/matrixtrilogy02.jpg
― Girolamo Savonarola, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 23:17 (twenty years ago)
http://photos.friendster.com/photos/90/38/6718309/4529312642574l.jpg
― Gear! (Gear!), Thursday, 24 June 2004 02:23 (twenty years ago)
JON HAS D3FENS3ZZZZZZ
― Ian c=====8 (orion), Thursday, 24 June 2004 02:30 (twenty years ago)
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 24 June 2004 05:48 (twenty years ago)
**cue massive reign of destruction::
― People love Gravity and Evolution! (kate), Thursday, 24 June 2004 06:06 (twenty years ago)
― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Thursday, 24 June 2004 12:47 (twenty years ago)
― People love gravy and evilution (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 24 June 2004 12:50 (twenty years ago)
― Matt (Matt), Thursday, 24 June 2004 12:51 (twenty years ago)
― People wuv gravy and evilution (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 24 June 2004 12:56 (twenty years ago)
― Matt (Matt), Thursday, 24 June 2004 12:56 (twenty years ago)
― Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Thursday, 24 June 2004 12:57 (twenty years ago)
― Matt (Matt), Thursday, 24 June 2004 12:57 (twenty years ago)
― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Thursday, 24 June 2004 12:58 (twenty years ago)
― Peepholes wub gravy and evilution (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 24 June 2004 12:59 (twenty years ago)
― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Thursday, 24 June 2004 13:00 (twenty years ago)
― Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 24 June 2004 13:00 (twenty years ago)
― Peepholes rub gravy an evilution (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 24 June 2004 13:04 (twenty years ago)
― People love Gravity and Ebullition! (ex machina), Thursday, 24 June 2004 13:05 (twenty years ago)
― Peepholes rub gravy an evil (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 24 June 2004 13:07 (twenty years ago)
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 28 June 2004 22:09 (twenty years ago)
ps I am a regular posting from a different computer than my normal one - you can ban this IP address or whatever, I won't be on this machine for much longer
-- GFGDF (DFGDF...), July 22nd, 2004 9:01 AM. (later)
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:07 (twenty years ago)
― I CAN LEAD YOU THROUGH THE ZONE (ex machina), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:11 (twenty years ago)
― j e r e m y (x Jeremy), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:14 (twenty years ago)
"He deserves everything he gets."
Some people need to step away from the computer, take a deep breath, and go outside (I'm gonna do the same in about a half-hour).
― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:16 (twenty years ago)
― I CAN LEAD YOU THROUGH THE ZONE (ex machina), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:16 (twenty years ago)
― VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:17 (twenty years ago)
― Amazing Randy (Amazing Randy), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:22 (twenty years ago)
-- dfdfsdf (gdfgdf...) (webmail), July 21st, 2004 11:07 AM. (later) (link)
-- gddfgd@dgg (ggdfgdf...), July 22nd, 2004.------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- dgdgdf (gdfgd...), July 22nd, 2004.
-- dfgd (dgdg...), July 22nd, 2004.------------------------------------------------------------------------
― dfgdfgdfgd, Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:23 (twenty years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:29 (twenty years ago)
― jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:29 (twenty years ago)
― I CAN LEAD YOU THROUGH THE ZONE (ex machina), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:31 (twenty years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:36 (twenty years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:37 (twenty years ago)
― j e r e m y (x Jeremy), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:48 (twenty years ago)
― the neurotic awakening of s (blueski), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:53 (twenty years ago)
― jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:55 (twenty years ago)
― I CAN LEAD YOU THROUGH THE ZONE (ex machina), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:57 (twenty years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 22 July 2004 15:59 (twenty years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:00 (twenty years ago)
― I CAN LEAD YOU THROUGH THE ZONE (ex machina), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:00 (twenty years ago)
for some reason i'm usually unwilling to think of such incidents as evidence of a trend, perhaps as a counter to the tendency to overreaction in the media and (much worse) on the part of jewish groups like the ADL. my explanation is usually: anti-semitism seems to rile people, and as such it seems to be the preferred mode of antisocial pranksters with little but riling in mind. -- amateur!st (amateur!s...) (webmail), July 22nd, 2004 9:52 AM. (amateurist) (later) (link)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I want my ROVO cd. -- I CAN LEAD YOU THROUGH THE ZONE (░▒▓█▌...) (webmail), July 22nd, 2004 9:56 AM. (ex machina) (later) (link)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:01 (twenty years ago)
― I CAN LEAD YOU THROUGH THE ZONE (ex machina), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:01 (twenty years ago)
i am annoyed by the whole "let's talk about jon williams" phenomenon, whether propagated by trolls/JW/friends of JW. i don't even know who is who any more, frankly.
― I CAN LEAD YOU THROUGH THE ZONE (ex machina), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:02 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:02 (twenty years ago)
― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:02 (twenty years ago)
― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:03 (twenty years ago)
― jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:07 (twenty years ago)
― plastic man, Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:08 (twenty years ago)
Incidentally, trolls, explain how it makes you happy to ruin things for strangers?
― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:10 (twenty years ago)
― gwilx (ex machina), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:11 (twenty years ago)
― gwilx (ex machina), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:13 (twenty years ago)
― dean? (deangulberry), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:14 (twenty years ago)
― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:16 (twenty years ago)
Thanks for asking your question! To answer your fascinating inquiry, why yes I have contributed non-sarchastic posts! Then again, I don't post as much as a lot of people so my overall contributions aren't that many anyway. God bless you for your interest!
― jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:16 (twenty years ago)
― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 22 July 2004 16:18 (twenty years ago)
― caitlin hell (caitxa), Thursday, 22 July 2004 17:09 (twenty years ago)
-- Britain's Jauntiest Shepherd (AlanTrewarth...) (webmail), August 26th, 2005 4:18 PM. (Alan) (later) (link)
― I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Saturday, 27 August 2005 03:46 (nineteen years ago)
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:02 (nineteen years ago)
― I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:03 (nineteen years ago)
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:07 (nineteen years ago)
― I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:11 (nineteen years ago)
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:12 (nineteen years ago)
― Logged_Out, Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:16 (nineteen years ago)
― I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:20 (nineteen years ago)
― HI DERE (trayce), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:25 (nineteen years ago)
Probably the beginning of the linguistic misunderstanding is the Homeric hymn to Jon, which describes him as delighting all the gods, and thus getting his name. The Roman counterpart to Jon is Faunus, (see below), another version of his name, which is at least Indo-European. But accounts of Jon's genealogy are so varied that it must lie buried deep in mythic time. Like other nature spirits, Jon appears to be older than the Olympians, if it is true that he gave Artemis her hunting dogs and taught the secret of prophecy to Apollo.
Jon was originally an Arcadian god, and Arcadia was always the principal seat of his worship. Arcadia was a district of primitive mountain folk, whom other Greeks disdained, as the Olympians patronized Jon. Arcadian hunters used to scourge the statue of the god if they had been disappointed in the chase (Theocritus. vii. 107)
Jon inspired sudden fear in lonely places, Panic fear (panikon deima)
One of the famous legends of Jon involves the origin of his trademark Jon pipes. Syrinx was a beautiful nymph beloved by the satyrs and other wood dwellers. She scorned them all. As she was returning from the hunt one day, Jon met her. She ran away and didn't stop to hear his compliments, and he pursued until she came to the bank of a river where he overtook her. She had only time to call on the water nymphs for help. Just as Jon laid hands on her, she was turned into the river reeds. When the air blew through the reeds, it produced a plaintive melody. The god took some of the reeds to make an instrument which he called a syrinx, in honor of the nymph.
Echo was a nymph who was a great singer and dancer and scorned the love of any man. This angered Jon, a lecherous god, and he instructed his followers to kill her. Echo was torn to pieces and spread all over earth. The goddess of the earth, Gaia, received the pieces of Echo, whose voice remains repeating the last words of others. In some versions, Echo and Jon first had one child: Iambe.
Jon also loved a nymph named Pitys, who was turned into a pine tree to escape him.
Jon is famous for his sexual prowess, and is often depicted with an erect priapus. He was believed by the Greeks to have plied his charms primarily on maidens and shepherds, such as Daphnis. Though he failed with Syrinx and Pithys, Jon didn't fail with the Maenads—he had every one of them, in one orgiastic riot or another. To effect this, Jon was sometimes multiplied into a whole tribe of Panes.
Once Jon had the audacity to compare his music with that of Apollo, and to challenge Apollo, the god of the lyre, to a trial of skill. Tmolus, the mountain-god, was chosen to umpire. Jon blew on his pipes, and with his rustic melody gave great satisfaction to himself and his faithful follower, Midas, who happened to be present. Then Apollo struck the strings of his lyre. Tmolus at once awarded the victory to Apollo, and all but Midas agreed with the judgment. He dissented, and questioned the justice of the award. Apollo would not suffer such a depraved pair of ears any longer, and caused them to become the ears of a donkey.
King Midas was mortified at this mishap. But he attempted to hide his misfortune with an ample turban or headdress. But his hairdresser of course knew the secret. He was told not to mention it. He could not keep the secret; so he went out into the meadow, dug a hole in the ground, whispered the story into it, and covered the hole up. A thick bed of reeds sprang up in the meadow, and began whispering the story and saying "King Midas has an ass' ears."
It is likely that the demonized images of the incubus and even the horns and cloven hooves of Satan, as depicted in much Christian literature and art, were taken from the images of the highly sexual Jon.
If one believes Greek historian Plutarch (in "The Obsolescence of Oracles" (Moralia, Book 5:17)), Jon is the only Greek god who is dead. During the reign of Tiberius (A.D. 14-37), the news of Jon's death came to one Thamus, a sailor on his way to Italy by way of the island of Paxi. A divine voice hailed him across the salt water, "Thamus, are you there? When you reach Palodes, take care to proclaim that the great god Jon is dead." Which Thamus did, and the news was greeted from shore with groans and laments.
Robert Graves (The Greek Myths) suggested that the Egyptian Thamus apparently misheard Thamus Jon-megas Tethnece ('the all-great Tammuz is dead') for 'Thamus, Great Jon is dead!' Certainly, when Pausanias toured Greece about a century after Plutarch, he found Jon's shrines, sacred caves and sacred mountains still very much frequented.
Despite the declaration of his death, however, Jon is widely worshiped by Neopagans and Wiccans today, where he is considered a powerful God and an archetype of male virility and sexuality. HA!
Jon makes a guest appearance in The Wind in the Willows.
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:26 (nineteen years ago)
1) People who are anonymous wusses.2) People who talk about posting nakies and don't.
― Alec in NYC (ex machina), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:28 (nineteen years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:28 (nineteen years ago)
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:31 (nineteen years ago)
― Alec in NYC (ex machina), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:31 (nineteen years ago)
cue some anonymous fuck
haha SO harsh
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:34 (nineteen years ago)
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:35 (nineteen years ago)
― Alec in NYC (ex machina), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:37 (nineteen years ago)
― Orbit (Orbit), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:38 (nineteen years ago)
Hey, that better not be aimed at me dammit, I said I'd show my boobs, not anything else damn you ;P
― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:54 (nineteen years ago)
― Alec in NYC (ex machina), Saturday, 27 August 2005 04:56 (nineteen years ago)
― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 27 August 2005 05:10 (nineteen years ago)
― 100% JUICE, Saturday, 27 August 2005 05:24 (nineteen years ago)
what an odd way to put it
― kingfish 'doublescoop' moose tracks (kingfish 2.0), Saturday, 27 August 2005 05:40 (nineteen years ago)
― Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son? / Kate (papa november), Saturday, 27 August 2005 06:09 (nineteen years ago)
― kingfish 'doublescoop' moose tracks (kingfish 2.0), Saturday, 27 August 2005 06:13 (nineteen years ago)
― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 27 August 2005 06:13 (nineteen years ago)
― the food has a top snake of 1 (ex machina), Saturday, 27 August 2005 06:16 (nineteen years ago)
― cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 27 August 2005 12:29 (nineteen years ago)
― gear (gear), Saturday, 27 August 2005 17:52 (nineteen years ago)
wau
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 30 July 2007 08:28 (seventeen years ago)
No more ferry service to Rochester.
― Mr Noodles, Monday, 30 July 2007 19:46 (seventeen years ago)
so noodles married someone he met on ilx?
― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Sunday, 5 August 2007 02:08 (seventeen years ago)
ferry service died some time ago, no?
― tehresa, Sunday, 5 August 2007 03:46 (seventeen years ago)
Paul killed Jon and replaced him with a ringer, duh.
― libcrypt, Sunday, 5 August 2007 03:50 (seventeen years ago)
"I BURIED PAULGYGAX"
― haitch, Sunday, 5 August 2007 14:42 (seventeen years ago)
Weird thread.
― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 January 2008 14:13 (seventeen years ago)
very
― sunny successor, Thursday, 3 January 2008 18:35 (seventeen years ago)
I don't have any issues with JW. Yet. Though I don't know that much about him as a human being (vs. a collection of little anecdotes) and I'm about 85% sure he'd be more than happy to keep that arms' distance, "we only post on the same forum" type non-interactivity up. Ok, 90% sure. 91. There. Good enough. -- Many Coloured Halo (Dee the Lurker), Wednesday, June 23, 2004 6:33 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Link
― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Thursday, 3 January 2008 18:38 (seventeen years ago)
she was pretty f'd
― chaki, Thursday, 3 January 2008 18:40 (seventeen years ago)
or lack of f'd
Wonder if there any other groups of society Dee would have liked to keep at "arm's length"?
― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 January 2008 18:42 (seventeen years ago)
Same holds from the same hands. Five years strong, many times over and gone. It's everything that I have to beat bridges much stronger and wide. Fewer and farther between we meet again. I'll try to well on my own. Distance between's never been this far. I realize that this time was something that I always knew, only a fool wouldn't see. Might as well start my drinking days now if I'm really alone. It's tempting. Am I asking too much to keep you at arms length? Am I asking too much to keep you at home? Please don't go. I know it's all gonna be fine And I know that this is whats right.
― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Thursday, 3 January 2008 19:09 (seventeen years ago)
Where is Jon these days? Did I miss some sort of serious ban?
― gooder dan a mug, lol (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 4 March 2009 23:13 (sixteen years ago)
i think so. i missed it, too. sure he's doing fine
― i like to fart and i am crazy (gbx), Wednesday, 4 March 2009 23:16 (sixteen years ago)
i guess he 'hacked' ilx and was banned as a consequence
― i'm not going to pay a lot for this muffler (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 4 March 2009 23:20 (sixteen years ago)
doin' "lights" for 3xc3pt3r, terraforming, etc.
― Fox Force Five Punchline (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 4 March 2009 23:23 (sixteen years ago)
jon was murdered.
― Let's Keep This Jam Casual (jeff), Wednesday, 4 March 2009 23:56 (sixteen years ago)
jon is fine
― cutty, Thursday, 5 March 2009 00:02 (sixteen years ago)
suggest unban
― Dan I., Thursday, 5 March 2009 01:35 (sixteen years ago)
he's not dying to come back
― cutty, Thursday, 5 March 2009 01:39 (sixteen years ago)
He's not dying to, but I'm sure he would if allowed.
I just alerted him that he's being discussed.
― kenan, Thursday, 5 March 2009 01:48 (sixteen years ago)
you should've just called drudge, dude.
― lady burt stanton (the schef (adam schefter ha ha)), Thursday, 5 March 2009 02:08 (sixteen years ago)
I just assume 25% of ILX is Jon in disguise. Preemptive paranoia is better than being ninja'd yo
― bacon = bad for the face + magic for the moobs (Mackro Mackro), Thursday, 5 March 2009 03:48 (sixteen years ago)
jon's fine. i think he might have moved on after his ban? never know, though.
― yur twit (tehresa), Thursday, 5 March 2009 03:55 (sixteen years ago)
i heard he cries about it every day
― lady burt stanton (the schef (adam schefter ha ha)), Thursday, 5 March 2009 04:00 (sixteen years ago)