Top 100 Films of the 1990's Poll - NOMINATIONS

Bottlerocket - (1996) - Wes Anderson

my two.

Dazed and Confused -- 93

Chungking Express -- 94

Pulp Fiction
Trainspotting

;)

Yes.

(I still hope someone else will nominate FMC.)

Safe was #1 in the Village Voice '90s poll -- I prefer Poison and even Velvet Goldmine.

Casino?!? Jeez, someone nominate the original version (Goodfellas).

THE NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS (1993)

taste of cherry (Kiarostami)
underground (Kusturica)

All I can tell you is a friend saw Casino-Goodfellas in reverse chronological order and could... not... believe... it.

hurrah for ailsa!

Twelve Monkeys (1996, I think)
Being John Malkovich (1999)

I'm sure I've missed something I really love, but those will do.

(The Searchers and Red River aren't the same director -- not that that invalidates anything)

WAIT, ARE YOU JONATHAN ROSENBAUM???

OTM!

that "Pesci outtakes" line was silly when Peter Travers used it.

Haha wtf. Kundun?!?!

The Thin Red Line
Office Space

But I encourage other people to nominate the following:

Trois couleurs: Rouge
Little Dieter Needs to Fly
Princess Mononoke
Babe: Pig in the City
Perfect Blue
Clean, Shaven
God of Cookery
Jesus' Son

The Hudsucker Proxy (1994)
Clerks (1994)

Most things I was thinking of missed by a year - 1989 was a good year for films. Weekend at Bernies for one.

So how's about:

Safe
Unforgiven

Oh, and by the way . . .

the Sharon Stone parts are boring compared to Pesci's share of the narrative

You've got that backwards, IMHO.

Groundhog Day (Ramis, 1993)

...and it's too much pressure to think of two right now, so I'm reserving my second nomination for later.

no love for Atom Egoyan?

you could save him for the unpopularly-demanded '80s poll rather than voting for Denzel for Training Day

C'mon, Andie Mac is no Irene Dunne, but she's perfectly fine in G-Day. It's a second-fiddle "girl" part, not a battle of equals like the best of Leo McCarey or Tracy-Hepburn.

Maybe someone would consider nominating Paris Is Burning, Crumb, or even an old favorite of mine, Nick Broomfield's utterly engrossing Heidi Fleiss: Hollywood Madam.

Is this cheating, btw?

Would have nominated Festen myself, and Songs From The Second Floor just missed out having been released in 2000... Got to decide on the second nomination...

*'cause All the Good Stuff I've seen has been taken. AP deserves a mention.

The Village Voice poll:

http://www.villagevoice.com/take/one/full_list.php3?category=9

HEHE

Thanks for the VV link, Dr. M -- I couldn't find it.

I will obviously be voting for both your candidates, todd swiss.

If any of those were already done and I missed it, I'll nominate Before Sunrise.

uh, if you had cared to read the thread, you might have noted that neither film has been nominated.

Now I know how Alex in NYC felt from the results of the music polls.

obviously how? taste of cherry is boring.

Don't set up straw men. Fight Club will be nominated before the nominations close. You know it, I know it.

Not really. I've spent a fair amount of time here and have seen more love for Showgirls than Fight Club, but maybe that's just who I pay attention to.

Fine, whatever. If you're all happy reiterating yet another time the greatness of Election, Fight Club, Happiness, Lebowski, Goodfellas, Twelve Monkeys, Scream, Edward Scissorhands, Clerks, Pulp Fiction, and Malkovich (and then turn around and chastize some of the more idiosyncratic choices like the guy who voted for Small Soldiers as being a Rosenbaum doppelganger) and don't find it even remotely just a case of the same old same old, then far be if from me to stop you. (I stress that I like a portion of those films, but its activities like this one that have given them critical stagnation.)

you're responding to my comment about Taste of Cherry, not you

I also immediately pegged Fast, Cheap + Small Soldiers as a Rosenbaum acolyte

I must be in a bad mood today, because I had a discussion with my TV station's entertainment reporter, a member of the Broadcast Film Critics Awards (i.e. Oscar's lapdogs), that filled me with more self-righteous contempt than anything in recent memory. I won't bore you with the details, but he seemed to think his critics' organization was more "pure" (or something, I was never sure what he was getting at) than other critics' organizations because they only used the secret ballot method (as opposed to, say, the NYFCC, who hash it out one morning in a big conference room). And he was all denying the power of the lobby efforts to get certain pictures made. What a drooling tool of the publicity machine, how totally deluded he is to his own blindness, et al.

It sort of put me off of caring about the Oscars (even prognosticatorily-slash-sportsfanesque) for the moment. If you create a new thread for end of the year awards/nominations/top10list madness, I'll post my NBR predix in it.

Couldn't decide between Krzysztof Kieslowski's three colors...can nominate (two) for me?

Obviously, I meant to write "to get certain pictures nominated." The main crux of his arguement seemed to be that whereas the NYFCC ends up narrowing its pool of eligible contenders through the verbal, interactive voting process (making it subject to "tainting" or whatever), the Oscars and BFCA system is set up so that anything can win. But to accept his argument requires one to totally ignore the overpowering buzz machine (the one he characteristically denies even exists, mostly because he's one of the cogs).

TO make matters even more laughable, I asked him what he planned to vote for and he rattled off a laundry list of Oscar contenders (Finding Neverland; Ray) and, even more ludicrously, mentioned one he hasn't seen yet (The Aviator). I mean, he literally admits that he's reserving a slot for something, something that just happens to be one of the studios' Oscar-grasping buzz items... Which proves my theory that I don't think there are significantly less viable contenders for any given year at the Oscars then there are for any critics' group. (Despite his position that all 300 films are eligible, it's clear that only a dozen or two are ever truly "in the running.")

As far as nominations go, if people nominate more than two films, I am only accepting their first two - unless they are specifying to switch something out for another, or if they double-nominated earlier. I leave it up to you guys to keep track of these as well, since rejiggering might make this a little complicated. I don't have time for a full list at the moment...maybe when I have more time in front of a computer.

It's fucking cold here, but Mike Figgis and David Watkin said I can say hi to ILX on their behalf.

!

Nine Small-to-Modest Films and One Epic One I Don't Think Would Go Anywhere But It Would Be Nice If Someone Else Chose To Nominate Them

Basquiat
Box of Moonlight
Dances With Wolves
Female Perversions
Mo' Better Blues
Passion Fish
Pret a Porter
Searching For Bobby Fischer
The War Room
When the Cat's Away

This is patently ridiculous and humorless. Don't vote for anything you like if anyone else likes it!!!

A contests to be the most obscure and 'different' would be far more boring than anything this could turn out to be.

Go (Liman, 99)
Bound
Freeway (white-trash Reese Witherspoon)
Three Kings
Crumb (which hasn't actually been nominated yet, I don't think)
Ratcatcher
10 Things I Hate About You
Can't Hardly Wait
Vincent & Theo

before sunrise
magnolia
ratcatcher
short cuts

suggestions sure to not be wacky enough for the hip record-store clerk

Oh fuck off already. I'm through with this thread.

i dont care if you say they are boring, i think that they are compelling for the same reasons you find them boring prolly.

how about we just nominate stuff and get on with it.

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
Straight Story

Dead Man
Straight Story

people upthread with their hemmin' and a hawin' grumble grumble...

hoping someone will nominate Reservoir Dogs and Kurosawa's Dreams
good call on the Hard Boiled nomination upthread

How can either of these be forgotten?

all upthread, I think, are great!

Wasn't going to nominate this one as I imagine nobody will vote for it, but I think it should definitely be there.

I imagine nobody will vote for it

you are mistaken. dogma films were this young cineasts dronerock.

Not universally.

PECKER - Waters 1998

>Haha, I love that the Village Voice poll has Schindler's List at #235.

But that Amistad (a near-great movie; I know anti-Spielbergism is the anti-Semitism of movie hipsters *wink*) is #245 and COBB (!!!) is #73 shows some critics call having head-up-ass life.

>how did annie hall ever win?

If you're talking Oscars, I think because it was 'hip', funny, just sophisticated enough, and a fucking great romantic comedy. That today's Academy mindset would inevitably have produced a Star Wars '77 win shows that even the AAs have declined in taste.

>Are you ready for Oscar prognostication time? NBR comes out tomorrow!!

You mean those folks who attend screenings in their pajamas?

Dan: Malcolm X, awesome, thanks.

yes

is already nominated.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0147192/

"Malcolm X" needed a different director. Preferably one who would've cast Laurence Fishburne.

What's Love Got To Do With It
The Matrix
The Fisher King
The Silence of the Lambs
L.A. Confidential
The Insider
Beloved
Dumb and Dumber

i can't change anything, though...

i'm still thinking about what my two picks might possibly be. god i'm so bad at lists.

You appeared to be worrying that people changing and swapping and cancelling their votes would result in a less accurate portrait of ILE, or something to that effect. Nothing more.

it's a stupid and ridiculous list. Some good people better come through soon, or I'm giving up hope on this sucka.

I'm virtually buying you a drink right now, Remy.

Magnolia came out when most ILXors were old enough to go to an R-rated movie alone, and has been widely available since it came out on VHS, DVD and cable showings. (note: I've only seen half and didn't like it)

I don't think anyone should have expected a film-school list.

How do you know what the list will look like? That something gets nominated doesn't mean it will have enough votes to matter.

I figure the ILX voter is going to be more indie/quirky than the IMDB voters, more open to foreign films, less interested in the teenage-boy-wet-dream movies (ie Fight Club) - but it isn't going to mirror the Voice poll or Rosenbaum's Top 100.

Milo - I just turned 24, and I'll be the first to admit my knowledge is somewhat scanty on early '90s films*. But if we're having a poll of all-nineties films, and we are, why shouldn't there be a representative distribution? Actually, it seems there is, as far as year goes! DVD being as relatively new as it is may be a difficulty, but I've seen the vast majority of the films on the list from video stores on VHS as I was a teenager. My problem with the list is more the politicking that goes into selection. It seems that many people have as their thought process something like "hey, what's a big obvious movie with a bit of cinematic merit I can submit to be contrarian, and (because since I know most everybody's seen it) will garner an awful lot of votes?" OR "What's a little, artistically viable and morally defensible picture that engaged me on the level of a high-school english paper?" I think very few submissions are movies people really, honestly, like AND think are nigh perfectly-constructed films.

Because, if everybody's allowed only two suggestions, they've got to pick things they think are wonderful.

*this is a qualified 'scanty.'

Quiz Show (Robert Redford)
The Long Day Closes (Terence Davies)

please please please someone nominate ghost dog!!!!!

carry on

Kinda presumptious. I can't speak for anyone else, by my two (Ruby in Paradise, Fallen Angels) are, no really, two of my favorite movies. Not, like, my absolute favorite two movies of all time, or of the '90s, but close enough so I figured I'd write them down to make sure they got on the list. I don't care if they're not two of your favorites. (Or did I miss the part where this thread was about trying to guess your favorite movies?) I can justify my picks at as much length as you want, and it might not convince you they're great movies, but it ought to at least convince you that I like them, which, I thought, was the point.

I don't know, I love arguing about these kinds of things, but I'm willing to let anyone make their case.

(xpost)

that being said, i still enjoyed it.

i want to nominate dumb & dumber after dan's (sarcastic?) suggestion but i)i haven't seen it since i was 14 ii)jeremy has put the fear into me.

i can prolly count the # of nominees i've seen w/ my fingers and i'd like to think most of them wouldn't make my top 10, maybe not my top 20. did the 90s just really suck or something?

jaymc, a is goodfellas, b is blue, c is white and d is red.

I could easily see myself voting for LW4, out of these nominees thus far... so, yeah. I guess popcornism is the film rockism.

Also, I have just remembered what Fallen Angels is, and it's amazing - I will definitely be voting for that somewhere.

And in one of those links up there The Vanishing (Belgian) is listed. I thought it was an 80s film, but if not, then WHY HAS NOBODY NOMINATED IT YET?

No offense intended, but this is exactly what makes this poll of little interest to me. I'm not as interested in what movies people love but why.

the second bit is such a typical students argument. how is "perfectly constructed" a universal virtue? lethal weapon 4 isnt about construction, its about routine. its about proceses that have been repeated so often they dont need any fraemwork anymore and work by themselves - its the buddy genres "confield" if you will, technical perfection wth a sense of randomness that only maeks it more interesting because anythign can happen at any time. i would have chosen johnny tos "the mission" for the same reasons but im afraid nobodys seen it.

Lethal Weapon 4, which undoubtedly nails its intentions and genre requirements to a T

exactly.

also, i picked jacobs ladder instead.

Well, surely that happens during the voting procedure? If you only get two nominations, but then get to vote for more than two films, why would you review the first two but not the others? Especially seeing as many people haven't nominated their favourites as their favourites were already taken.

And it's a list. Listy listy list. Not an essay. A list. Otherwise the thread would be called 'discuss your two favourite films from the 90s' or something.

Excellent point.

My noms:

The Nighmare Before Christmas (1993) - It's success was pretty unprecedented: a Halloween/Christmas hybrid themed claymation musical dark comedy. This was probably the point at which the Danny Elfman/Tim Burton team went from established to house-hold-name status. Deservedly. Any of the 363 days of the year that aren't Halloween or Christmas, it's still not rare at all to find my 5 year old singing "What's This?".

Pecker (1998) - This is the sweetest, tweeest, suburbanest movie of all time to feature teabagging. John Waters' sneakiest, probably most subversive film. Plus, Edward Furlong is a cutie patootie in it.

Fuck off.

Agreed. As I pointed out upthread, this poll won't probably draw as much attention as the ILM polls, which is why people should have three or four nominations like we had on the comics poll. Can this still be changed? Girolamo?

I'm interested in why film seems to engender these sorts of divides on ILX. Which is not to say that ILM engenders its own divides, but this is different somehow.

I don't understand why on ILM one's preference of slightly more obscure (but still not oddball) music is taken as the norm, while in cinema one's preference for the same is presumed snobbery. I am a filmmaker, a writer, a once-upon-a-time film critic, and while my frame of reference in some aspects is much larger, I am making no attempt to invalidate anybody's selection. Let me state as clearly as possible; I really don't understand why people are so sensitive about their choices. I'm not trying to piss anybody off, but I'm incredibly tired of being pigeon-holed as a cinasthete snob -- I doubt if anybody on this board could name five movies I think are great. And if they could, I'm reckoning (by this perception) I'd have the opposite problem - trying to defend movies most people think are fairly crummy.

Furthermore, Dan and n/a, I'm offended by your posts, and you're both people whose opinions I genuinely care about. What the hell guys?

ha, i was actually going to say why is it that it seems more acceptable to be popist with music than it is with film?

That's incomplete, and it's a stupid and ridiculous list. In what universe of posturing are like 40% of the films American trash pictures, and is Magnolia visible but Short Cuts isn't? Or, for that matter, almost any film made out of the English speaking culture-factory? Some good people better come through soon, or I'm giving up hope on this sucka.

-- Remy Snush (jcoomb...) (webmail), December 2nd, 2004. (later) (link)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(that was the list as far as I know it. and c'mon s1ocki! My list would never ever ever be this lame.)

-- Remy Snush (jcoomb...) (webmail), December 2nd, 2004. (later) (link)

GEE HOW COULD I EVER HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU MIGHT BE A FILM SNOB???????

OK, I'm being irreverent, but I don't see what about this thread doesn't invite such a stance. Basically, what's really sad is that there's no happy medium between ILE and ILF. There's a schism between perceived popcornism and perceived elitism that thankfully doesn't exist on ILM, for all its flaws and bickering. Somehow, the popists and rockists have found a way to cohabitate.

wrong. it fulfils nothing BUT them. a bit of setup for the villains, then chases, shootouts, explosions, banter. thats all there is, completely gratuitous, in random order, and it still works. you just have to admire that. (well maybe not you.)

http://www.vintagephotos.com/Image_63B_Black_Child_Crying.jpg

yay! crosspost.

I think s1ocki is a great example of the middle-ground mentality.

Movies are the most instructive and dispersable medium at the disposal of anybody in the world, and there's no analogy to the experience of watching a brilliant film with other people who are equally moved. To belong to a well-made collective experience (in watching a great picture with a sympathetic crowd), and to feel genuine emotion often far more vividly than in real life is the hugest pleasure I know. And that, coupled with intellectual stimulation, engagement on any sort of higher cognitive level is my favorite thing in the world, bar none.

Somewhere along the way, and it's fairly recent, it became acceptable to seperate the twin minds of a good film. Either we go to movies to be entertained, or we go to be educated. This is shit, and appreciators of both halves slight the other half. Those who prefer entertaining movies (and by this I mean to signify one-note entertaining movies -- "a light romantic comedy" or "a creepy slasher pic") cast aspersions on the intellectual set for not 'getting the fun.' And they're right! But the other side of the looking glass has intelligent, cerebral, witty movies without any cathartic or thrilling capacity. And this set slights the entertaining set for being fluffy. They're right too!

Great movies are, as Chaucer said are "tales of best sentence and most solace," the most engaging (intellectually) and moving (emotionally). When I say that my list would never be as lame as the one above, I mean that there would be never be as many one-sided films. In the long run, we're never wowed by either the gee-whiz factor of a huge explosion or the quirkily arcane conversation of two professors in love. Its their intersection, their marriage, where good movies are made.

I love good movies. More than anything else I know, and more than many people I know. In real life I'm a stoic; I don't complain much and very little really affects me. I can go weeks without feeling upset or elated. But in movies I cry all the time. An hour ago I rewatched the end of Truffaut's Small Change, and I broke into open tears at the implicit baggage of an elementary teacher's monologue about treating children kindly. When the character Patrice has his first kiss on the stairs of the mess-hall, I laughed and felt more pleasure than I had at any point in the past 48 hours. And this is what amazes me: how people can claim dull, pretentious, empty, silly, movies are really great to them. I don't buy it. I don't buy that we're moved and stimulated by crap, because I know people are smarter and more compassionate than that. When my neighbor M4tty (who's thirteen) claims Matrix Revolutions is one of his favorite movies of all time, I know he's being dishonest to himself. I took him to see it, and on the car ride home he talked about surfing. I also know that when we saw Iron Giant a years earlier he clutched the armrails of his chair tight enough to leave dents, and talked of nothing but robots for two weeks. They most major difference between the two, as far as I'm concerned, is that one carries with it the ring of human truth - something unfalsifiable, and something moving to every capacity of our person - and that one carries with it savvy marketing, gee-whiz factor, and empty visual spectacle. Movies are not light shows.

B-b-b-b-but so is bad cinema! That's a completely meaningless point!

is this poll going to be about the films we ENJOY most, as opposed to what we think are actually the BEST (or Most Worthy) films?

none of the musical polls conducted so far really portray what anyone here would consider the 100 BEST of anything i think.

*apply this to Star Wars, The Matrix and plenty other sci-fi films that rely heavily on 'the light show' factor too

Thoughts on Nomination Process

I think that had I had better foresight, I would have made nominations unchangeable. I don't think that this necessarily would have changed much, though. People invested in this will want to wait and be able to nominate films less likely to be otherwise championed, while people who just enjoy the poll and want to submit something will generally just put down their favorite (and usually popular) films. There's nothing wrong with either approach - as you can see, the later nominations will likely be considered more esoteric. More power to them. You also forget that a few people with well-placed top fives are enough to at least get some more obscure work onto the list, even if not as high as some might want.

At the moment, I am not going to open up the number of nominations or make any changes. Let's see how things are when the nominating period is over.

The Nomination List as of now
Kicking and Screaming - Big Baby Bingo
Bottle Rocket - Big Baby Bingo
Rushmore - peter smith
Dazed and Confused - Jimmy Mod
Chungking Express - Jimmy Mod
Pulp Fiction - Frankenstein on Ice
Trainspotting - Frankenstein on Ice
Boogie Nights - peter smith
King of New York - :|
Buffalo 66 - Sanjay McDougal
Safe - Formerly Lee G
Happy Together - Alex in SF
Hoop Dreams - Alex in SF
Ruby in Paradise - gypsy mothra
Fallen Angels - gypsy mothra
The Opposite of Sex - The Lex
Festen (The Celebration) - The Lex
Human Resources - Tuomas
The Iron Giant - Tuomas
Naked - Dr. Morbius
Portrait of a Lady - Dr Morbius
In the Company of Men - Michael B
The Usual Suspects - Michael B
Casino - Riot Gear!
Hana-Bi - Riot Gear!
The Nightmare Before Christmas - nickalicious
Taste of Cherry - todd swiss
Underground - todd swiss
The Distinguished Gentleman - Yanc3y
Rounders - Yanc3y
Fargo - ailsa
Run Lola Run - ailsa
Heavenly Creatures - David Merryweather
The Blair Witch Project - David Merryweather
Miller's Crossing - henry jones jr
Ravenous - henry jones jr
Twelve Monkeys - hobart paving
Being John Malkovich - hobart paving
Election - milozauckerman
Scream - milozauckerman
Fast, Cheap, and Out of Control - chris herrington
Small Soldiers - chris herrington
The Big Lebowski - Billy Dods
Toy Story - Billy Dods
The Thin Red Line - Jeff-PTTL
Office Space - Jeff-PTTL
The Hudsucker Proxy - Shmool McShmool
Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me - Kevin Gilchrist
Clueless - Kevin Gilchrist
Bio-Dome - latebloomer
Unforgiven - Formerly Lee G
The Piano - jocelyn
Titus - jocelyn
Waiting for Guffman - Sanjay McDougal
Metropolitan - Shmool McShmool
Groundhog Day - n/a
Mr. Death - n/a
Joe Versus the Volcano - Pears can just fuck right off
Exotica - zaxxon25
Terminator 2 - zaxxon25
Kids - LeCoq
Fresh - LeCoq
Delicatessen - emil.y
Slacker - It's hard to kill a horse with a flute
Happiness - It's hard to kill a horse with a flute
Heat - TOMBOT
The Fifth Element - TOMBOT
HYPE! - Doobie Keebler
The Limey - Doobie Keebler
Career Opportunities - jill schoelen is the queen...
Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead - jill schoelen is the queen...
Ed Wood - Pears can just fuck right off
Jacob's Ladder - :|
Princess Mononoke - stewart downes
Secrets and Lies - stewart downes
The Match Factory Girl - youn
The Dreamlife of Angels - youn
Live Flesh - Zimmer026
Wintersleepers - Zimmer026
Goodfellas - Allyzay Science Explosion
Europa - Haibun
Eyes Wide Shut - gabbneb
Hard Boiled - andrew s
Mars Attacks! - andrew s
JFK - jim wentworth
Boyz N the Hood - jim wentworth
Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion - Haibun
Dead Man - tremendoid
Straight Story - tremendoid
Jackie Brown - lemin
Barton Fink - lemin
Flirting - Remy Snush
The Crying Game - Remy Snush
Starship Troopers - TIM@KFC.EDU
An Angel at My Table - TIM@KFC.EDU
The Idiots - emil.y
Il Postino - Dom Passantino
South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut - Dom Passantino
Pecker - nickalicious
Malcolm X - The Ghost of Dan Perry
Naked Lunch - The Ghost of Dan Perry
My Cousin Vinny - gabbneb
The Spanish Prisoner - dave225
Arlington Road - dave 225
Quiz Show - jed_
The Long Day Closes - jed_
Dead Alive (Braindead) - Dan I
Leon (The Professional) - Dan I
The Player - Collardio Gelatinous
Beau travail - daria g
Flowers of Shanghai - daria g
Wonderland - s1ocki
Topsy Turvy - s1ocki

I have not yet checked any of these to see if they truly are in the 90's. Please let me know if anything is inaccurate to your best estimations up to this point.

Camerimage
Poland is doing well. The Figgis and I had a good time yesterday. I spent today watching Rodrigo Prieto light, and I'm about to set off to see Chris Doyle.

"Sol de Otoño / Autumn Sun" (Mignogna, 1996). A gem.

[tiptoes out]

and i dont believe for a second that lethal weapon 4 is thought of as a labor of love from the director to the audience.

i think (know) that film can be so much more than what hollywood puts out these days and it makes me mad. for every good hollywood action film, there are ten bad ones.

Was really brazen and intentionally hurtful, Dan. I'm not mad, but I'm insulted and a little bewildered at how you can extract that meaning from my post? What do I need to do to prove to you I'm not a snob? Please don't read any subtlty or secret and manipulative purpose into that microessay, it was my attempt to be honest. Also, the comment

Good cinema is a collective love-letter from the crew to their audience, and a gift of sweat, tears and blood.

B-b-b-b-but so is bad cinema! That's a completely meaningless point!

is not really true in my experience, but I understand how you can feel this way. I've worked on enough films which are nothing more than big advertising schemes. I DOUBT (but I don't know) that the makers of National Treasure, Christmas with the Kranks, or Bridget Jones 2, would view their product as a gift of 'blood, sweat and tears'... I think most of them would view it as a career move, and a job they had, nothing more. I don't like art movies myself, and I believe that many of them are as much crap as the the three I listed above.

and steve - I've got to think about it, because my opinion of the movie is really weird and conveluted.

But I've seen a number of complaints about people starting movie threads on ILE instead of on ILF and about ILF being so underpopulated, but with a lot of the comments on this thread, it's pretty obvious why no one WANTS to post to ILF

I will personally banish to this preschool.

On the other hand, think of a film like "Beau travail". It is slow-paced, not at all entertaining, and even though it has catharsis of a sort, it is minimal. Yet it is a great film.

Films have different functions. Some films manage to combine these functions, but that doesn't automatically make them better than the films that don't. I have a very different mindset when I go to see "Shrek 2" than when I see "The Beautiful Troublemaker", but I love them both equally.

(2x x-post)

i am a film snob, admittedly.

How on Earth can it be bewildering that you're coming across as a film snob???????

(xpost I liked "Garden Stae", Steve!)

I'm neurotic at this point and have to preface this with the old "i'm not attacking here," but I don't think that, if he's anything like me, Remy would necessarily agree with this statement. It's not a question of "themes" or "emotions" but rather construed intents, ulterior motives, the level at which the filmmakers accomplish their visions, stuff like that. "Themes" and "emotions" make it sound like Remy's just some sort of Academy Award voter or something.

This is all frustrating because I don't feel like a snob and am confused as to why the label would be attached to me (knowing, of course, that labels are given meaning by those who attach them, not from qualities belonging to those to whom they're attached).

Can I share (just because it's in my head) my favorite moment in Small Change?)

Baby Oscar and his mother have spent about ten minutes climbing the stairs to their apartment - distracted and visited by neighbors all the way. They live on the ninth floor, and when the mother puts down her groceries on the kitchen table, she realizes she left her wallet below. She tells the baby to behave, and runs down the stairs. Bored, Baby Oscar watches the cat climb out the window, and jump on the ledge outside. He follows the cat onto it, and the cat leaps to the next ledge. Oscar is upset, and leans farther and farther out the window. We cut to the mother downstairs, and a silent, scared crowd watching the baby on the balcony above. We are terrified, and as the cat hisses we watch Oscar drop out the window and tumble nine flights onto the ground. There is a pause, and a scream, and we fear the worst. But Oscar gets up, giggles, and walks away.

Anyway, I defy anybody to tell my the tremendous pleasure given to me by that scene is in any way snobby, difficult, or complex.

Um, because as I've mentioned, a number of ILF posters has posted to complain about the lack of people who post on ILF. If you like ILF the way it is, then I am genuinely happy for you. Once again, my statements were not intended as a "slam" on ILF, they were intended as a reflection on why so few people post to ILF.

xpost
I haven't had much of a problem with anything Remy has said, even his 'elitism' seemed good-natured and constructive.

My issue has been with Eric H's really does just read like the record-store clerk who likes to smirk at everyone's choices but his own.

There's a schism between perceived popcornism and perceived elitism that thankfully doesn't exist on ILM, for all its flaws and bickering. Somehow, the popists and rockists have found a way to cohabitate.

The problem is that this 'perceived popcornism' on your part has been strawman bullshit allowing you to act superior. The list up there isn't made up of Jerry Bruckheimer's Greatest Hits (though someone should nominate The Rock) or Titanic. Maybe 1/10 of the list are popcorn flicks by any common usage - Dead Man and Ed Wood really packed the crowds in for a couple of hours of mindless fun!

yeah but you're even more 'tolerant' than i am (tolerant as in susceptible to exhibitons of 'bad taste' WINK WINK)!!

And yeah, I guess Truffaut is a bad example... except that it's in French.

They can be really good movies! But they can't be GREAT movies, the kind I'll remember and internalize for the rest of my life, and the kind that I would think worthy enough of being a 'best film of the decade.'

and no, at this point i don't mind sounding hypocritical or making absurd irrational statements. this shit must cease.

"worthy"

Did it occur to you to NOT VOTE for this legion of movies you will never remember or internalize (setting aside the fact that you must remember and have internalized some of them well enough to loathe them and to belittle the people who like them)?

destructivism is underrated, especially in the formation of canons.

It's cool, Eric.

Surely not I.

Yes, it did occur to me. Namely because I'm a sane and rational person, an intelligent one, and because I know what this thread is, after all, about.

And you know what? Dan, I've been as good-natured and upbeat, direct and honest as I can be. I've tried to patch things up and agree with you, made a genuine effort to find commmon ground, and justify my position from a non-judgemental standpoint. I'll admitted my biases and kept my temper, and refrained from a single personal attack.

But I'm sick to death of your trying to pick a fight with me. I'm tired of you going through my posts and finding a word you can argue, ripping it from context and twisting it as a reason to paint me as a hateful person. How can you claim I'm loathing or belittling anybody? It's demoralizing and disrespectful behavior. I respect you and like you, but I'm not pleased at having to to overlook your insults, baitings or personal affronts. If you have dirty laundry with me, please air it openly instead of sniping at me in this way.

Toy Story 2
Fucking Amal/Show Me Love
Husbands and Wives
Chinese Ghost Story 2
Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai
Once Upon a Time in China
Funny Games
Kurosawa's Dreams

Hmm, I seem to be in agreement that there aren't enough subtitled films on there, and despite this and considering Remy a pal, I'm afraid I'm still on the Dan/Nick side in this one. There may be a few joke or willfully lowbrow nominations here, but I think it's just as likely that some people have chosen serious critical faves ahead of less lauded movies they like better. I think most people have simply nominated two movies they love and would like to see do really well in the voting. I like Kurosawa's Dreams much better than Lethal Weapon 4, but surely it's obvious that we live in a world where most people disagree, and I don't think we can take seriously any suggestion that this is down to anti-canonical rebellious posturing to any substantial degree.

Remy, Dan is being far more aggressive than you, and you know I like you, but your post along the lines of 'if some good people don't start nominating I'm giving up on the lot of you' did sound terribly superior and sneering.

You've been using 'popcornism' as pejorative, people should have better taste (ie 'be more like me') etc.. Only you're substituting "hipster movies" as your target of disdain where the normal hipster targets big action movies and Titanic.

You're reading heavily into anyone's motives for nominating a film - ah, people only nominate/like hipster films because it reinforces their 'superior taste.' The flaws there: there's no evidence to support the superior taste thing aside from your desire to be the better film geek, and you assume that "hipster films" can't be enjoyed in and of themselves. (This makes me question how they ever became hipster-cult films if no one liked them in the first place.)

Tell me you don't see some irony in your criticism the hipster movies as signifiers of 'superior taste'?

I think our animosity boils down to differing views of what the poll is supposed to be. I'm not expecting it to be a critical work of importance and meaning (no consensus list of e-strangers can be) much less new and innovative, but as fun. Like, haha, here are the films ILX likes for whatever reason.

After Life, Hirokazu Koreeda (1998)
Breaking the Waves, Lars von Trier (1996)

Yes I do. And I say as much.

You've been using 'popcornism' as pejorative

No I haven't been. I was the one more or less arguing for Lethal Weapon 4 over Lebowski and Scary Movie over Scream. I'm not arguing that people who prefer the latter in both cases. If anything, I'm arguing (pre-emptively) that they're undervaluing the purer worth of the formers. Accuse me of "hipster-er than thou" if you wish (and the charge is probably true), but in any case open your mind to the possibility that there are genuine reasons to regard the eventual top-ranking films of this list with acute suspicion. (This was all covered in some other thread, come to think of it... the one about Donnie Darko or something.)

I think our animosity boils down to differing views of what the poll is supposed to be.

I doubt it. I'm not expecting any more from the results than you are. Our animosity probably stems from you being willing to settle for it, and me seeing it as an opportunity for demolition.

Kicking and Screaming - Big Baby Bingo
Bottle Rocket - Big Baby Bingo
Rushmore - peter smith
Dazed and Confused - Jimmy Mod
Chungking Express - Jimmy Mod
Pulp Fiction - Frankenstein on Ice
Trainspotting - Frankenstein on Ice
Boogie Nights - peter smith
King of New York - :|
Buffalo 66 - Sanjay McDougal
Safe - Formerly Lee G
Happy Together - Alex in SF
Hoop Dreams - Alex in SF
Ruby in Paradise - gypsy mothra
Fallen Angels - gypsy mothra
The Opposite of Sex - The Lex
Festen (The Celebration) - The Lex
Human Resources - Tuomas
The Iron Giant - Tuomas
Naked - Dr. Morbius
Portrait of a Lady - Dr Morbius
In the Company of Men - Michael B
The Usual Suspects - Michael B
Casino - Riot Gear!
Hana-Bi - Riot Gear!
The Nightmare Before Christmas - nickalicious
Taste of Cherry - todd swiss
Underground - todd swiss
The Distinguished Gentleman - Yanc3y
Rounders - Yanc3y
Fargo - ailsa
Run Lola Run - ailsa
Heavenly Creatures - David Merryweather
The Blair Witch Project - David Merryweather
Miller's Crossing - henry jones jr
Ravenous - henry jones jr
Twelve Monkeys - hobart paving
Being John Malkovich - hobart paving
Election - milozauckerman
Scream - milozauckerman
Fast, Cheap, and Out of Control - chris herrington
Small Soldiers - chris herrington
The Big Lebowski - Billy Dods
Toy Story - Billy Dods
The Thin Red Line - Jeff-PTTL
Office Space - Jeff-PTTL
The Hudsucker Proxy - Shmool McShmool
Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me - Kevin Gilchrist
Clueless - Kevin Gilchrist
Bio-Dome - latebloomer
Unforgiven - Formerly Lee G
The Piano - jocelyn
Titus - jocelyn
Waiting for Guffman - Sanjay McDougal
Metropolitan - Shmool McShmool
Groundhog Day - n/a
Mr. Death - n/a
Joe Versus the Volcano - Pears can just fuck right off
Exotica - zaxxon25
Terminator 2 - zaxxon25
Kids - LeCoq
Fresh - LeCoq
Delicatessen - emil.y
Slacker - It's hard to kill a horse with a flute
Happiness - It's hard to kill a horse with a flute
Heat - TOMBOT
The Fifth Element - TOMBOT
HYPE! - Doobie Keebler
The Limey - Doobie Keebler
Career Opportunities - jill schoelen is the queen...
Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead - jill schoelen is the queen...
Ed Wood - Pears can just fuck right off
Jacob's Ladder - :|
Princess Mononoke - stewart downes
Secrets and Lies - stewart downes
The Match Factory Girl - youn
The Dreamlife of Angels - youn
Live Flesh - Zimmer026
Wintersleepers - Zimmer026
Goodfellas - Allyzay Science Explosion
Europa - Haibun
Eyes Wide Shut - gabbneb
Hard Boiled - andrew s
Mars Attacks! - andrew s
JFK - jim wentworth
Boyz N the Hood - jim wentworth
Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion - Haibun
Dead Man - tremendoid
Straight Story - tremendoid
Jackie Brown - lemin
Barton Fink - lemin
Flirting - Remy Snush
The Crying Game - Remy Snush
Starship Troopers - TIM@KFC.EDU
An Angel at My Table - TIM@KFC.EDU
The Idiots - emil.y
Il Postino - Dom Passantino
South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut - Dom Passantino
Pecker - nickalicious
Malcolm X - The Ghost of Dan Perry
Naked Lunch - The Ghost of Dan Perry
My Cousin Vinny - gabbneb
The Spanish Prisoner - dave225
Arlington Road - dave 225
Quiz Show - jed_
The Long Day Closes - jed_
Dead Alive (Braindead) - Dan I
Leon (The Professional) - Dan I
The Player - Collardio Gelatinous
Beau travail - daria g
Flowers of Shanghai - daria g
Wonderland - s1ocki
Topsy Turvy - s1ocki

But neither of those is as good as Shawshank. And I've only seen one of them.

I'm guessing you're an ILF transplant. Perhaps if you posted on some other threads, you might find that the people here might find your shit a lot more tiresome than people there do.

http://ilx.p3r.net/users.php?board=35

(Wow. I was going to post that page as a whithering disproval of my ILF status, but apparently I'm the second most frequent poster there as of late. That's truly sad.)

But neither of those is as good as Shawshank.

Yes, you've proven you know my hot buttons. Good job.

Which, I guess, makes you the record-store clerk laughing at people who buy Britney and the Strokes, when they should really be buying the Boredoms or something?

Accuse me of "hipster-er than thou" if you wish (and the charge is probably true), but in any case open your mind to the possibility that there are genuine reasons to regard the eventual top-ranking films of this list with acute suspicion.
And when we see the 'eventual top-ranking films' the time will come to judge them with acute suspicion. You're complaining before a single vote has been cast. You have no way to know what will be voted for and what will not.

Worse, as I said, you're casting aspersions on why people nominate. No one can actually like the Big Lebowski (didn't like it personally), they must be nominating that one, to, uh, reinforce their... wait, no, what the fuck is gained for someone in regard to stature or cultural signification by nominating The Big Lebowski?

I'm not expecting any more from the results than you are. Our animosity probably stems from you being willing to settle for it, and me seeing it as an opportunity for demolition.
Ergo a difference in views of what the poll is supposed to be. Your desire for 'demolition' implies that you think it's worth demolishing, that it's an actual, critical effort rather than a fun time-waster. I'll be more than happy to complain about films I dislike when they make the final list, but I'm not going to complain beforeheand and/or pretend this list establishes a new critical canon or requires demolition in any way.

I am a sucker for harrowing, unreliable narrator stories rife with hallucination and "what you see is not necessarily what's real" stories. I loved the concept of "The Naked Lunch" as the story of the hallucinations Burroughs went through as he wrote the book and I loved the concept of "Jacob's Ladder" as a "what if?"-version of a dying soldier's life passing before his eyes ("Menace II Society" almost got a nomination from me, as well). I like the nightmarish imagery and the conflation of the prosaic and the demonic. Particularly, I liked the way that "The Naked Lunch" went out of its way to present visual grotesques well outside of a slasher/scifi/horror paradigm.

After Life - Simon H.
Breaking the Waves - Simon H.
Autumn Sun - Collardio G. (cough)

(ha; xpost with Dan)

I'm not going to complain beforeheand and/or pretend this list establishes a new critical canon

Then why is it even worth investing any time in it?

wait, no, what the fuck is gained for someone in regard to stature or cultural signification by nominating The Big Lebowski?

Identification with a staid groupthink mindset characteristic of hipsters, for starters.

when they should really be buying the Boredoms

Now come on. That's just stupid. I'm not even accusing anyone of choosing movies that are boring to them. At worst, I'm accusing people of participating in this exercise dispassionately, which (though I don't give a shit about the results) I do regard as a waste of time.

At any rate, mission accomplished. This thread has become officially tiresome.

FINALLY!!! gabbneb OTM! Dan OTM!

Hahaha. That's right. Were you me in high school or was I the type you loathed? Or am I misreading and my Twin Civic status alone is tripping you into memories?

;-)

^^^^
There I'm communicating.

Election will easily make my top-10, because her pussy gets SO wet.

xpost:

Then why is it even worth investing any time in it?
No one was investing much time in it until you started calling it boring and staid and horribly complacent and filled with hipsters angling for...

Also, because the final results engender discussion (cf. ILM polls). Results.

Identification with a staid groupthink mindset characteristic of hipsters, for starters.
What evidence do we have that allows us to make this assumption about the nominator(s)? Aside from your apparent dislike for the film: nada. Zip.

I don't like it either, but I'm not going to call out people for nominating things I don't care for.

At worst, I'm accusing people of participating in this exercise dispassionately, which (though I don't give a shit about the results) I do regard as a waste of time.
You don't give a shit about the poll, but you're more than willing to spend a bunch of time whining about not just the results but nominations that may never show up? That makes loads of sense.

Kevin OTM: until given reason to believe otherwise, I assume all nominations are driven by an enjoyment and respect for the film. I don't believe in taking people to task for what they enjoy and respect - criticize the film not the fan, y'know? (Barring people into scat porn or Nazi propaganda, then it's criticize the fan too)

So, why I nominated "X":

First off, Denzil Washington's performance in this movie is astonishing, particularly in the segments where Spike Lee switches back and forth between stock footage of Malcolm X and footage of Denzel playing him; the mannerisms, inflections, even the speaking pitch are note-perfect. My parents in particular said that the depths to which Washington captured Malcolm X were astonishing (my dad briefly flirted with joining NoI based on their message of self-empowerment to the black community until he noticed the gangsterism behind the scenes, so he paid A LOT of attention to Malcolm X while he was in his 20s). Also, Spike Lee did an excellent job of presenting a mainstreamed, understandable version of Malcolm X which explained to a wide audience how he got to the point he reached, why he did and said what he did, why he broke with NoI, and why he is ultimately a positive role model for African-Americans.

Hahaha. That's right. Were you me in high school or was I the type you loathed?

Not only was I you, I still am you! I mean, in this thread alone I've managed to convince someone I like that I harbor deep-seated ill will towards him purely because I like arguing like a bulldog!

No one was investing much time in it until you started calling it boring and staid and horribly complacent and filled with hipsters angling for...

OTM. Which is why I thought it would be worth the effort to make something out of it. Forgive me for putting value in that which everyone's fine thank you keeping said quality absent. If nothing else, this will all result in some comments worth footnoting the results with.

I don't like it either, but I'm not going to call out people for nominating things I don't care for.

LOL. Oh the irony. I actually do like Lebowski. My aversion to its inclusion stems from its cachet as a drinking game and a jukebox of quips.

I'd love to continue to perform CPR on this thread but I have errands to run, dogs to feed, friends to abuse, et al...

Or, maybe we regard the concept of argument as being a totally role-playing proposition. Like me with sex.

My aversion to its inclusion stems from its cachet as a drinking game and a jukebox of quips.
But, again, we don't know that anyone nominated it for this reason. Do we?

you're either a troll or continue to fail to get it. we can even agree with what you're saying, once you deign to say it explicitly, but we're still going to call you on being an asshole about how you say it.

you seem very conflicted. do you know how you feel about the movie? did the filmmakers design their work for this purpose/audience or not? if they did, how much is the film accordingly a failure? where is the line between a 'quip' and a quotable line that also carries meaning? is a film of ideas a failure if it employs a mass-audience strategy? Reservoir Dogs/Pulp Fiction are the proto-jukeboxes AND good or great movies, afaic (though it's a recent revelation; I hated them for a long time).

>"Beau travail". It is ...not at all entertaining

Tuomas, you make good points, but I disagree on both counts (and BT is my least favorite Denis film).

As for whether Harold Lloyd & Co intended any deeper meaning, likely not, but there would be no master's theses on Jerry Lewis if full consciousness was part of the deal. (And I'm sure David Lynch intended depth in "Wild at Heart," but there ain't any.)

I watched The Big Lebowski again just yesterday. By far the best thing the Coens ever did..

Either way, GO HERE and use your three extra nominations before the end of the year!