OH FOR FUCKS SAKE: Ontario bans Pit Bulls

Here's a pit bull: http://www.gecoland.it/immagini/tpicukc.jpg

here's the target dog:
http://www.cursor.org/stories/images/dog_2.jpg

It's a terrible shame, this, because among the people who look after them and socialise them responsibly, staffies are often known as Nanny Dogs because they love children so much. Yes, they are scary when they're on the attack, and they have incredibly powerful jaws, so where another dog might give you a painful bite, a staffie will take your arm off. And yes, they are strong and can be hard to physically restrain once they get going. But it takes just as much to get them going as it takes to get a friendly old labrador going.

Bloody people.

And the Target dog is indeed an English Bull Terrier.

(Come on, some of you guys must have seen Black Cat, White Cat, surely?)

I hate all dogs, to be honest. Walking around with a dog and saying "oh but the chances of it RIPPING YOUR FLESH OPEN AND EATING YOUR HEART are so minimal" is just the same as me walking round with a gun and saying "oh but the chances of me BLOWING YOUR FACE OFF is so minimal, really, yes".

We don't really have those dogs much in Ireland. Are they an American breed? A couple of sites seem to refer to them as American Pit Bulls. Interestingly, when I googled for info on pit bulls, one of the first sites I came across said that originally all of the strong terrier types (staffies, English, etc.) were referred to as "pit bulls" because they were all used for pit fighting in much the same way. Maybe my confusion comes from olden times.

I used to live on the same road as a gobshite builder who kept large sums of money in his house. To protect his money he had:

A German Shepherd: A sweet dog who used to play with us in the road. Our favourite game was getting him to jump over us. He also used to play with our King Charles spaniel. Some asshole left down rat poison in a public park and he ate it and died.

A Dobermann: He tried to keep the dog from getting too socialised and used to do stupid things like only feeding it six days a week (in case he had to go to hospital or something, so the dog wouldn't panic?????), but when he had its tail docked and its ears cut (technically not legal here anymore, but still...) one of its ears kind of flopped down and he was ashamed of it. It let burglars into and out of the house one night. End of dog.

A Rottweiler: called Henry. A big slobbery mess who farted a lot and was also insufficiently vicious. After Henry failed to impress a set of burglars one night, the guy got rid of him and gave up on dogs altogether.

It just shows how hard you have to try to make sociable animals antisocial.

Now can someone do something about that dog across the street that barks ALL FUCKING DAY!!!!

That's true. Dogs that are vicious are usually vicious because of mistreatment on the part of the owner.

i've spent a lot of time around dogs and worked in an animal shelter, and what vicious dogs have in common is not a breed but ownership and/or mistreatment by people.

There is an entire magazine devoted to the bully breeds.

WTF!

yeah, but definitely not always. My mother, while riding her horse out on some open space, got attacked by an off-leash pit bull. The dog jumped up and attached itself via its teeth to the horse's front - it was literally being swung around by its teeth by the horse. At some point, both the dog and my mom got thrown off. Evidently, the owner had never seen any behavior like that from the pit bull ever, and she had never mistreated it. I think the dog's name was Sugar or something ridiculous like that.

I don't want to slam a breed in general, but it seems to me more pit bulls go ridiculously crazy/vicious than other types of dogs.

xpost - that's such a good point.. ppl with kids are advised not to get jr's because they're prone to aggressiveness towards children, and the same goes for other animals in the house.

Ah now, come on. You knew you weren't going to get away with that. Lions aren't domestic animals.

Bull terriers do make such lovely summer pub dogs. I met one when drinking outside the Gravediggers in Glasnevin one year, and the dog just kept lying against my leg. Its owner, who was sitting beside me, tried to get it to stop, but after a while I said "look, I like these dogs. It's okay." He was really pleased. He said that she does it all the time, but most people freak out and move away.

I just wish there were more laws that held the owners responsible when their dogs attack people. Didn't someone get tried a few years ago for assault with a deadly weapon when their dogs attacked somebody? I have a vague memory of it...

I'm so conflicted!

As for there being no safer alternative to cars, that is just as equally subjective as the idea that there is an "alternative" to a specific breed of dog. I've never had a drivers' licence in my life. I think there are plenty of viable alternatives to cars. Others who value their car would disagree with me.

While I can't argue the logic isn't flawed, I hate dogs so I shouldn't complain too much.

The problem here is not the breed though. There are certain breeds of dogs that because of their intended function they have more aggression factor than, say, a cocker spaniel. But keep in mind that the intended function of a domestic animal is also to coexist with human beings and as such this is not a trait that inherently leads to viciousness. The problem here is that everyone in the world knows which breeds are the ones "meant" for fighting or police work or whatever, so people who are going to be bad owners who want a "badass" dog are inherently more attracted to those breeds (see the story above about the dude with the German Shepherd, Rottweiler, and Pit Bull). If abilities and actions of the minority owners of these breeds were not at fault here and the breed itself was at fault here then, with the approximately 80 trillion PBs, Rotties, GSs, etc in the world that there would be a whole helluva lot more of fatal dog attacks going around?

Some statistics, most recent I could find--note that my quip about worrying about Pit Bulls is so 1989 is not inaccurate: Rottweilers outpace them in the lethality stakes from that point onwards. Also, shockingly, a Cocker Spaniel HAS apparently killed someone.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

Good friends of mine adopted a pit bull who literally found them, she walked up to friend Kathy on the street. Said pit bull is a total friendly sweetheart who loves kids.

xpost - I've been wondering where Luna is, myself.

Can a ban on primate reproduction be far behind? WHAT HAVE YOU WROUGHT Ontari-ari-ari-OOOOOOO?

I have nothing against the reasonable interest of the state to regulate the breeding, selling, or possession of animals, or even mandatory training or insurance for owners of a certain breed, but a blanket ban seems demagogic to me. I have heard the shrill voices of those who wish to ban pit bulls and, when they don't sound downright racist, equating pit bull ownership with gangs or ganglike behavior, they sound as if they have never seen the lovely, friendly dogs that I know. The Irish couple who own a pub 'round the corner from me have a beautiful bitch named Mary who has endured for years the iniquity of being in a household of small children who have wrestled with her, pulled her ears, and all the small cruelties one expects of small children, and though she will look at you with those heart-rending, canine eyes that say, "What have I ever done to deserve this? Can you not restrain the little brats?", she has never so much as even nipped them. Unless these dogs are trained to be violent or not properly socialized, they need not be violent. One could say the same for people really, couldn't one? Should we ban people since they are responsible for the vast majority of homicides?

Thermo, OTM

The Humane society downtown are already bonkers enough, don't give them more ideas.

So, for example, my parents own the hugest German Shepherd I have ever seen. The dog's head must weigh 20 lbs on its own. If you saw the animal playing with my dad, you'd be terrified of it, the growling, the relentlessness; I've seen the dog tear apart a soccer ball in under a minute flat. It is actually from Germany, Schutzhund trained and was a police force dog. All anyone in the family has to do, however, if the dog is getting too wound up, is to say "NEIN" at it and it looks at you and completely stops. Then you say "PLOTZ" and it sits quietly until you invite it over again.

In short, banning a breed isn't what I think people should do because good owners will now not have the breed and bad owners will still go ahead and get it cos what the hell do they care? Pets should require licencing--if the potential owner cannot prove it can handle the animal the person should not be allowed to have the animal. I don't understand why it makes more sense to ban an entire breed, the vast majority of which are fine, well handled and trained animals well loved by their owners, than it does to require people to go through training with their dogs.

xpost yeah I see nothing wrong with requiring muzzles and leashes in public.

(FWIW the reason why my parents have the German police dog is because the police chief in the German town decided the dog was "too silly" for German police and gave it back to the breeder because the officers were playing with the dog too much, which is like the funniest thing)

http://www.columbia.edu/~alk2102/images/silly.jpg

(there is a third one, not pictured, in the house as well)

Searched the web for "rottweiler attack". 
Results 1 - 10 of about 319

Searched the web for "Doberman attack". 
Results 1 - 10 of about 492

Searched the web for "german shepherd attack". 
Results 1 - 10 of about 141

Searched the web for "pitbull attack". 
Results 1 - 10 of about 478

Searched the web for "poodle attack". 
Results 1 - 10 of about 31

Your search - "chow-chow attack" - did not match any documents.

Searched the web for "pit-bull attack". 
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,900

xpost

Don't know shibas but the chows and akitas I've known were more stand-offish.

My sister is studying to be a vet tech and works in a vet's office, and the only dogs she is wary of working on are chows and akitas because they have been a bit more unpredictable in terms of temperment. I think the bull breeds/rottweilers/sheperds etc. get an unfair bad rap in this department.

one of the boys in our complex thought our bull terrier was a camel, i swear to god. nyers.

http://www.detnews.com/pix/2000/05/09/d04dogs.gif

"Despite these limitations and concerns, the data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities."

DBRF stands for dog-bite related fatalities. So if people want to maintain that it's just the owners and not the breed, they can - but the facts don't support their case.

Pit Bulls :: Ontario : Droopy Draws :: Virginia

Pitbulls, rottweilers, akitas, etc... may have a greater capacity to be fatal to humans but that capacity is not likely to be realized without human training and encouragement. People who want intimidating dogs are unlikely, sure, to buy a golden lab or a teacup poodle, but I don't see that that makes the pitbull et al really breed specific problems. Take away their dogs and they'll find something else to intimidate you with, and though they may not show up in the DBRF categories, those fatalities may still take place by other means.

or what Michael basically said.

xpost

There may be some dogs *within* a breed who are bred for aggression, but that doesn't mean the entire breed is aggressive by nature.

Some other things to keep in mind: dogs that attack people are often misreported as 'pit bulls' when they are no such thing. Another thing to keep in mind is that many, many APBTs have bits of other breeds in them - you can see this when you look at pictures of them (some are smaller and skinnier, some more muscular ; ears are shaped differently, etc.)

I figured I'd said everything I had to say about pits - yeah, I do have two of them, and they really are sweet and loving dogs. This may be because I made damn sure when I got them to train them carefully and properly, and because of this, I doubt I'll ever have a problem. They play well with people and other dogs.

I understand why people don't care for them and/or are afraid of them, but I'd venture to guess that a percentage of those people have had little or no personal experience with the dogs themselves. Not all, of course, but a percentage. I'm aware of all the pros and cons, and I made my decision accordingly. I love my dogs, they have become a fantastic addition to my home and family. I have never personally experienced a mean pit, but they do exist, and I know there are people who think I am a bad parent because I allow my son to play with my dogs. So be it.

My son fears for his life: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/lunacee/zeroboo.jpg

His father's face being eaten off: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/lunacee/zerokisses.jpg

Two clearly insane animals: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/lunacee/sleepy.jpg

He was rescued from the clutches of someone who runs dogfights, and they were 'training' him using small animals like cats, so no wonder he doesn't like them.

Do you have food in there? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/lunacee/zoe.jpg

Dogs hate camera flashes: ihttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/lunacee/ze

Those are all I have here.

That's me. And I know this banning is a simplistic "solution" to a more complex issue. I'm just wondering how many pet owners would welcome more government licensing and regulations to help ensure that pet owners act responsibly, not only to the public, but the pets as well. Seriously, this dog barking across the street often sounds like its crying. A call to the authorities is not taking seriously and talking to the neighbours leads to us being told to mind our own business. And a dog bite is way more serious.

Sure, lets make pet owners more responsible.

Personally, I'd have no problem with it whatsoever. You have a pet, you're responsible for it and it's actions - same as if you have a kid.

http://homepage.mac.com/dymaxia/.Pictures/Mack2.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/dymaxia/.Pictures/MackKerry.jpg

*is brutally killed*

haha! My Dad trained our first dog to Schutzhund III.

Putting sweaters on dogs is what should be outlawed. Hrumph.

Yeah, my sister put that on him, because he has so little fur, and he was getting cold. It made him break out in a rash, though, so he doesn't wear it anymore.

What sort of franchise would be based on this?

http://www.ajmalbeig.addr.com/images/dog-n-cat.jpg

http://library6.municode.com/gateway.dll/CO/colorado/341?f=templates&fn=default.htm&npusername=10257&nppassword=MCC&npac_credentialspresent=true&vid=default

The above comparison to different types of cars is not really the same because in our society the owners and drivers of cars are much more regulated, observed and punished than pet owners.

Here's an adorable Shiba pup:

http://www.furrycritter.com/resources/dogs/images/Shiba-Inu.jpg

And the adult version:

http://www.dogbiz.com/dogs-grp6/shiba-inu/images/shiba-280x235-tig-128.gif

They're an amazing breed, I have one and a half Shibas, but they are "different" and ought not to be encouraged in their domineering ways from an early age.)

Can I just point out again that one of the very obvious differences between pit bulls and large cats are that pit bulls are dogs, domesticated by people for thousands of years? While large cats are not domesticated at all?

Anyway, I think people should just hijack this thread to talk about their dogs.

I remember some sleazy Milanese playboy, several days after a foggy, cold New Years Day boozily bringing his tiger cub into a bar where it seriously unnerved the dogs the little old men and ladies were wont to take with them for a small walk (for the dog) and a coffee or drink (for the human). The admittedly adorable cub had no skill or knowledge in keeping back its claws and so desperately wanted to play with whomever but was so clumsily overpowering that it soon became an unfortunate outcast. I took pity on it despite (or perhaps because) of its unworthy owner but couldn't cuddle or play with it since, as a 40 lbs kitten, it was a dangerous (scratchy, bitey) ingenu.

My parents have had both a rottweiler and a doberman/german shepherd mix. Very friendly, adorable dogs.

Oh please. At the least, that's a pretty slanted, hyperbolic statement. I mean, my tabby cat, his ancestors were bred for generations to be vicious killing machines. Pit bulls were never bred to attack humans.

That sly smile, those determined eyes, that unwaning pleasure to please... the mere quality and characteristics of the APBT have evoked more human emotional, rational, and irrational response than any other breed that exists today. By no means are these dogs people-haters or people-eaters. Their natural aggressive tendencies are toward other dogs and animals, not people. However if they are properly socialized they will not even be aggressive with them. These are truly quality companions for quality owners only! The American Pit Bull Terrier is a good-natured, amusing, extremely loyal and affectionate family pet, which is good with children and adults. Almost always obedient, it is always eager to please its master. It is an extremely courageous and intelligent guard dog that is very full of vitality. Highly protective of his owners and the owner's property, it will fight an enemy to the death. It is usually very friendly, but has an uncanny ability to know when it needs to protect and when everything is okay. The American Pit Bull Terrier can be willful and needs a firm hand. They are generally okay with other pets if they are raised with them from puppy hood. For the most part they are very friendly, but not recommended for most people. Excellent with children in the family, they have a high pain tolerance and will happily put up with rough child play. As with any breed, they should not be left alone with unfamiliar children. Originally used as fighting dogs, the powerful American Pit Bull may go for the throat of strange dogs. A minimum of training will produce a tranquil, obedient dog. Socialize very thoroughly when young to combat aggressive tendencies and be sure to keep the dog under control when other dogs are present. It has given outstanding results as a guardian of property, but is at the same time esteemed as a companion dog. When properly trained and socialized, this is a very good dog and a great family companion. Unfortunately, some choose to promote the fighting instinct in the breed, giving it a bad name.

http://img138.exs.cx/img138/3558/shiba9jj.jpg

Of course, this is just one anecdotal story, but this experienced dog breeder has sworn ever since that there's something inherent to the American Pit Bull Terrier which predisposes it to sudden, devastating violence.

Even despite this, my instincts tell me that banning a sinlge breed doesn't really address the problem here. I mean, where will it end?

See, for instance:

ihttp://www.arba.org/images/Presa%20Canario.JPG

I have been scared of Rottweilers and Pit Bulls because of when my childhood friend was attacked by the Rottweiler from across the street, when my college roomate brought her Rottweiler to visit and it lunged and barked at me, and when some twat brought his Pit Bull on the bus and it lunged and barked at me.

I made the point on the other thread that lots of breeds are known to have some wierd flaws. English Cocker Spaniels can have some sort of RAGE syndrome and responsible breeders are trying to keep this from being inherited by not letting the affected dogs or their near relations breed. Because of the popularity of Pit Bulls with irresponsible dog owners, the dogs w/ bad traits are not being kept from breeding, and are probably encouraged to breed.

Last year I was working at a place where the director every so often would bring in Suki, her Shiba Inu. The only thing Suki ever endangered was your lunch, if you were forgetful enough to leave it within her reach.

addressing the problem in a more complicated manner doesn't seem too likely with a/ the current climate of government cuts and b/ the constituents who place a high priority on this issue being a small minority

that's horrible. but did the breeder make any connection between his dog killing an unfamiliar animal that intruded on its property and the fact that he was training it as a guard/attack dog?

http://sg.yimg.com/xp/ap/20050721/1047141282.jpgDenver Pit Bull Owners in a Panic Over Ban

Thursday July 21, 3:37 AM
Denver Pit Bull Owners in a Panic Over Ban

A few weeks ago, two police cars and two animal control vehicles pulled up at the home of Stef'ny Steffan looking for her beloved 4-year-old pit bull, Xena. Seven officers hauled the animal off to the city shelter, putting her on death row.

Xena became an outlaw after Denver won a court fight and reinstated one of the toughest pit-bull bans in the nation. Since May, more than 380 dogs have been impounded and at least 260 destroyed _ an average of more than three a day.

Dog owners are in a panic. Some are using an underground railroad of sorts, sending their pets to live elsewhere or hiding them from authorities. City officials would not estimate how many people might be violating the ordinance.

Some owners, like Steffan, have won a reprieve for their pets with help from a rescue group. The group got Xena released by signing an affidavit stating that the animal would never return to Denver. The group took the dog to Mariah's Promise in Divide, an animal sanctuary that has accepted more than three dozen pit bulls from Denver....

Woman bites dog, needs rabies shot.

just a reminder: i still hate these dogs.