In America, even the gays and the hipsters are crap!

Priceless.

German weissbier has no hop flavour at all.

Followed a couple of lines later by:

It's all tied up with convenience, with comfort, with puritan body horror or proactive Nietzschean body alteration (work out hard at the gym, your body is just a machine!)...

Ah, if only all people could be as slim as Momus without ever having visited a gym!

It's exaggerated, but it gets at a reality. At least in urban areas, kitchens are very heavily staffed by Mexicans. There's nothing to prevent Mexicans from learning how to prepare a cuisine that's unfamiliar to them, but it doesn't always work that way. I guess the comments could be read as racist, but I'm not sure that's entirely fair. Overtly, anyway, he makes an economic point.

I've been to some food trucks staffed by, say, Pakistanis who are selling cheese steaks and such, but don't really know what how they are meant to turn out. Of course, I'm not sure what Momus would think of chees steaks. I'm backing to not eating them most of the time, thanks to the extra weight I've put on in recent years.

Jesus fucking Christ.

NOT ALL LATIN PEOPLE ARE MEXICAN. Every kitchen I've worked in has been staffed by, yes, predominantly Central American dudes but as many of them came from Ecuador or El Salvador or Guatemala as they did from Mexico. Maybe I'm being pedantic, but whatever. Does anyone ever substitute "French" for "German" or "Spanish?" Of course not.

1) NYC = America
2) American pluralism = Manhattan AND Williamsburg, straight folks AND gay folks
3) Williamsburg = gay people, hipsters, that's it
4) Momus has a very good innate sense of where to go to find the best in a major metropolitan area, or at least a very good tourbook
5) all Latin American or South American people are Mexicans
6) Mr. Softee = the highest expression of American food culture
7) lower middle class and poor people deserve to be made fun of for their failure to devote themselves to a leisure class arts and crafts aesthetic
8) gay people are like THIS
9) Japanese hipsters are saintlike, even when allied with ugly Americans

(xpost)

What I'd loosely call "non-assimilationist" (or hip) gays avoid such marches (parades is what they are), at least after the first few years of coming out. I spent 4 hours at the Film Forum and got out in time to see the sweep-up.

10) America is bereft of family farms. No major urban area in America has even one farm market. Few if any chefs are devotees of the market or its ideology/aesthetic. There is no American cult of the local, the fresh, or the simple in cooking/eating. There have never been 'organic' or 'slow' food fads in America. America falls behind the rest of the World in all these respects.

Lauren otm

no gritty hummus here.

Mexico is in North America.

Yes. The ability to successfully resist the urge to write sermons, screeds, and essays must be encouraged.

(xpost: haha only we already know that IT DOESN'T WORK ON HIM)

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!

lalalalalalalalalallalala

...I still think the point is valid, tho. I run into this all the time. I've heard all kinds of people of all stripe casually use "Mexican" for "someone from south of the border."

ow ow ow ow hahahahahahaha ow ow ow ow

rofl

xxpost

Au contraire. Actually living in Japan, or even bothering to learn the language, would spoil the fantasy.

A priori. I hate much of the US too but since I live here now and since I think every decent person should make some effort to find the good in people/cultures, I don't spend all of my time reinforcing my prejudices but in trying to enjoy myself and those around me.

Yes, the very country who's major contribution to world cuisine is ramen. Careful there, mjfan, 'cause ramen's origins are actually Chinese and Japanese food ain't nothing to be sniffed at.

Seriously. Don't most people think "sushi" before ramen, anyway? God I love sushi.

(ie if artist go into their art thinking "of course this won't make a difference" then it certainly won't)

Granted. Anyone engaging in the creative process has to have that outlook to some degree. HOWEVER, there's a difference between saying "This piece will make people think about issue X from an angle they might not have considered, hopefully widening their perspective" or "Piece X is about this and this; hopefully it will make an emotional connection with the audience" and saying "I have this preconceived notion about a heterogenous group of people/things and when they don't actually live up to that preconceived notion, it is their fault, not mine".

IE, there's a difference between attempting to transform the world via your art and attempting to transform the world by stereotyping everything you come across in the most self-serving, absurdist manner possible.

(xpost: I have never knowingly listened to Momus' music.)

Dan: "Momus, I don't even know you."

He would like you to think that, anyway. The "neo-con" part comes up partially because they've completely co-opted that line of rhetoric in America but mostly because, in his essays and his postings on ILX, Momus has come across to me as one of the most reactionary, conservative individuals I've personally interacted with.

YES. Guess who else drips with that attitude? (Hint: His name is Momus.)

But upthread I said we should leave it alone. So now that I've gotten my licks in, let's leave the poor guy alone.

(xpost: I am now imagining a Momus-driven AT-AT destroying Old Country Buffet.)

Momus, 100% OTM here, alas.

Nabisco OTM.

But in Momusland, ice cream from the street vendors is more authentically ice cream than ice cream from a store.

But seriously, we should let it go.

xpost to dan perry

I suck so much.

Japanese chicks are hot. When travelling, I will find fault with everything I see in direct proportion to the number of japanese chicks in proximity. Each hot Japanese chick in visual range offsets one bad thing about the place I am on a simple point structure. If there are no hot japanese chicks in visual range then the place sucks. The more japanese chicks the better. Thus, an area swarming with japanese chicks is the best place on earth.

Of course, that kind of thing is a long-running habit with America, where plenty of British men and Europeans stop in and see their chance to pull a Tocqueville and magically capture the whole crux of the country in a couple broad strokes. If you live here, it's kind of annoying. Those of you in the UK will be happy to know that Americans don't come back from your space talking about how they've seen into the soul of Britain, that they had some chips and saw a girl in tights and figured out your entire country.

Except, nabisco, so many do. It's a universal instinct of the dim.

http://wizardishungry.com/hash/2005/6/7/950402a1673e7424ba8f802f8818d8d0.jpg
http://wizardishungry.com/hash/2005/6/7/af1bb423b7c146f6620a26915733ee88.jpg
http://wizardishungry.com/hash/2005/6/7/e31171ea2fa18c0e979cb4ba06c7e2d8.jpg
http://wizardishungry.com/hash/2005/6/7/f5e11396b38514dfc7b3d6eefc15527d.jpg
http://wizardishungry.com/hash/2005/6/7/a590b37b2c8ed87ee052a34c4a79a4f7.jpg
http://wizardishungry.com/hash/2005/6/7/c6f04ef39a2668002a126d40d2d5c8ba.jpg
http://wizardishungry.com/hash/2005/6/7/91215533a4509d2d04c053668a9c57f2.jpg
http://wizardishungry.com/hash/2005/6/7/ea404abab0fe628a80a4e5826486814d.jpg

i picked up(read: burned a copy from my radio station) of Folktronica after seeing him pop up in the Cynthia Plaster Caster docu that screened at CMJ in 2002(along with DJ Qbert's "Wave Twisters"!). How else would I know about Finnegan, the Folk Hero of HTML?

also, i enjoyed how half the album sounds like a great continuing of the soundtrack to Sierra On-line's early 90's magnum opus "Freddy Pharkus: Frontier Pharmacist".

http://daniel.sierraplanet.com/graphics/character01.gif

American cities simply aren't as closely planned as many old world cities. Their heritage is not one of tyrannical local or national government and they haven't been bombed like London, Berlin, Tokyo but had a process of urban renewal that reflects the changing values of real estate and the relative health of the economy. I love Paris but I have to admit that it's largely the result of Haussmann, the Bourbons (or at least their ministers) and a civic esthetic which is very, very conformist and demanding.

http://www.economist.com/theworldin/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3372495&d=2005

The US ranks second in GDP per capita (behind only Luxembourg) but it ranks 13th in their measure of quality of life (however still ahead of Japan & Germany - presumably the countries Momus is comparing against).

I call bullshit.

The problem with the Momus piece is that he plays things as though he came to the States with no pre-conceived ideas at all to discover things for himself, when in fact the opposite appears to be true and he seems to have gone out of his way to PROVE those ideas right.

How is that bullshit? You would kind of expect a country to be more homogenous than a continent.

Oh, come on. Europe is about 30 countries and as many languages and ethnic groups and cuisines and architectural styles and what have you. Of course it's more culturally diverse than America.

We have Momus to do that, too. Except the girl in tights robbed him for his chips, violently.

Well, to play devil's advocate, with the exception of America (generally) having a common language, the rest of that is true about America too.

I mean, have you guys ever left suburban airport hubs?

SMOG
A River Ain't Too Much to Love
(Drag City)

"The Well"
"Rock Bottom Riser"

Smog's Bill Callaghan is someone I'm vaguely aware of, and vaguely wary of. He's a lone troubadour who sings depressive songs and is beloved by the sort of Frenchmen who go and see depressing anglo-saxon singer-songwriters perform on boats moored on the Seine, then proclaim them the second coming. That and Nick Cave fans. I guess I just dislike the sort of desurgent sincerity, the formal conservatism, of such figures. That's mostly prejudice, though, because I haven't really listened to Bill's oeuvre. I already really dislike the album title, "A River Ain't Too Much to Love". I should tell you at this point that I hate Neil Young and all who swear by him. But what do Bill's new songs sound like? Well, "The Well" is a sort of rollin' rockabilly number about "blues" and "ah felt so bad" and "wouldn't ya know". It's not as morbid as I was expecting, but it just feels deeply conservative to me. I resent the "assumed universals". Then again, if this were played on a synth it might not be far from Bruce Haack. No, what am I talking about, Bruce was funny and instructive! "Rock Bottom Riser" continues with talk of "pledgin' ma love to you" and "ma foolish heart". Like Nick Cave, he's clearly a literary fellow who reads Raymond Carver short stories, but I just don't respond to heartlands humanism like this. Go teach creative writing class in North Carolina or something, why dontcha?

I love how he rewrites the lyrics quotes colloquially to give him a Southern accent even though he doesn't sing with a Southern accent!!! What a cock!

older nations (japan or britain say) (haha germany is younger of course): can rely on a basic firm bedrock against which to allow a fair amount of superficial capering difference?

disclaimer: this may be bullshit

You know, NORMAL AMERICANS (including NORMAL NEW YORKERS) go to A SPECIALTY CHEESE shop (or Zabar's or whatever) if they want "the truly smelly and tasty cheeses eaten in France and Germany." Apply similar conclusions as required for beer, wine, fish, "middle-eastern specialties," vegetables, ice cream.

When comes to bodies, I'd take my bf and his pillowy ass over Momus' scrawny same, puritan body-horror made flesh.

i love the part when he criticizes american supermarkets for not having enough stinky cheese
Momus, 100% OTM here, alas.

I take it neither of you have been here or here. or even here.

also, I'm not sure it's impossible to bloggerifically distill the essence of a place in a short time, as long as you are limiting your distillation to the place itself. i'm not necessarily a fan of the pinefox's writing style, but he appeared to make quite an effort to investigate, look at and think about New York. momus lacks such curiousity. it would be too risky.

momus appears to be in a well-trodden tradition of his own -- a briton coming to the USA and misunderstanding as much as he understands (think dickens, bowie, and gang of four [in "cheeseburger" mode]).

Of course, I'm not sure what Momus would think of chees steaks.

dastoor once said that he wanted to hear momus's opinion of pot noodles!

some of the best mexican food i've eaten was made by chinese cooks. what's up w/ this food rockism?

In any case I fear good cultural observation really need to do more than just approve or disapprove of how a place meets or doesn't-meet the observer's particular tastes and values, and I think this fact is pretty much the only thing stopping Momus from shooting for some actual success as a critic. There's this desire to just evaluate everything against his own Fascinating Eccentric Values, which unfortunately elevates HIM to the central position in everything --the supposed object of the criticism, or any hope of understanding it, gets overshadowed by calling attention to the critic himself. He doesn't want you to think about the stuff he's talking about -- he wants you to think about him!

Gabbnebb, I wasn't bemoaning the lack of good cheese in NYC, but in american supermarkets generally.

well, the places I linked are American supermarkets, though admittedly one is rather gourmet. I think most major urban/suburban supermarkets probably have at least decent, if not incredibly diverse, cheeses. what do we suffer in comparison to?

So why are we feeding into that with this thread?

Oh come on. Any distinction between the two is an illusory one.

(xpost: !)

Momus don't like it living here in this town
He says the traps have been sprung long before he was born
He says hope bites the dust behind all the closed doors
And pus and grime ooze from its scab crusted sores
There's screaming and crying in the high rise blocks
It's a rat trap Momus but you're already caught
But you can make it if you want to or you need it bad enough
You're young and good looking and you're acting kind of tough
Anyway it's Saturday night, time to see what's going down.
Put on the bright suit Momus, head for the right side of town
It's only 8 o'clock but you're already bored
You don't know what it is but there's got to be more
You'd better find a way out, hey kick down that door
It's a rat trap and you've been caught

In this town Momus says everybody tries to tell you what to do
In this town Momus says everybody says you gotta follow rules
You walk up to the traffic lights,
Switch from your left to right
You push in that button, and that button comes alight
It tells you
Walk don't walk, Walk don't walk
Talk don't talk, Talk don't talk
Walk don't walk, Walk don't walk
Talk don't talk, Talk don't talk
Hey Momus take a walk, take a walk, take a walk
Momus take a walk, take a walk, take a walk
Momus take a walk, take a walk, take a walk, hey Momus take a walk with me

Little Akiko's trying to watch top of the pops
But mum and dad are fighting don't they ever stop,
She takes off her coat and walks down to the street
It's cold on that road, but it's got that home beat
Deep down in her pockets she finds 50p
Now is that any way for a young girl to be
I'm gonna get out of school work in some factory
Work all the hours God gave me get myself a little easy money
Now, now, now na na

Her mind's made up, she walks down the road
Her hands in her pockets, coat buttoned 'gainst the cold
She finally finds Momus down at the Japanese cafe
And when he's drunk it's hard to understand what Momus says
But then he mumbles in his coffee and suddenly roars
It's a rat trap Akiko and we've been caught
Rat trap, you've been caught in a rat trap
You've been caught in a rat trap
You've been caught in a rat trap

The difference betwen Momus going to New York and my recent trip to Holland was that my theory was excessively positive ("omg all this transport is totally integrated and amazing! A whole slew of factors concerning the Dutch national mentality that i have no idea about but have just made up in my head contribute to this well planned city!"), whereas Momus's was excessively negative - ("new york/america is smelly boorish and aesthetically unpleasing, and completely un-Euro*").

The other difference is that Momus wrote an essay about it and published it. I think thats wha tis really getting yr goat. Who would be as bold to claim that they dont formulate batshit theories and hold slightly absurd conceptions about other peoples, cultures and nations? But they tend to keep them in their head, or at least only air them in pub conversations. Momus has written his out and printed it in his blog**, and presented as the Facts. So MY batshit theory is that the problem here is really that Momus is a convincing writer, able to sound authoritative even when talking bollocks.

* Dont forget that Momus hates London (ie Britain) too! we've already had this slagging!

** Hey guys, this is still just a blog entry. Its like you all crowding round ripping a 14yr old SOAD fan apart for writing something "OMG Rap music is so gay!!!"

actually, i would propose that he visit branson, missouri. but SC will do, too!

Helen: "That's like doing a Neil Tennant in reverse innit?"

Knowing the exact ways to work (certain kinds of) people into a (certain kind of) righteous tizzy, it's not an art. I think it's more a skill, like juggling or shooting a gun or being to choose a really good wine: a hyperrefinement of tics and impulses a maestro ceases to have any real conscious control over. If it's an art, he's either incredibly stupidly disingenious about it or just plain stupid.

(And with that, I'll just say that his ideas about gay people are stuck somewhere in 1990...1984...1977...1965...hard to say. I'm sure he can dredge up gayfolk who're perfectly happy with his ideal of lavenderface, just as you can find guys who think rock music took a wrong turn some point after punk or the Beatles or whatever.)

Also! This whole thread has reminded me of a Robert Benchley piece on this issue -- about English writers' 1920s habit of breezing through New York and seeing the corrupted soul of America. The first few days would be spent socializing with pretty much the same cosmopolitan class they socialized with in London; during the next few, someone would take them to see the park and "the Negro exhibit" in Harlem; a week later they'd be home, firing off essays about the disturbing nature of the modern American. I think for Benchley the reality of New York lay with a bunch of people from Cleveland and Chicago and Indianapolis, who'd come to work in New York offices and did just that, and then trucked home and ate early and went straight to sleep, never once running into famous English writers and critics.

Momus would be able to do lots of critics' jobs with more attention-grabbing panache, and his prose and thought can often be good enough that nobody would notice the difference -- but no, no, no he couldn't. The subjects would be lost. Ask Momus to contribute monthly to a critical journal and it'd quickly become obvious that he was writing nothing more than The Momus Show: send him to write about art and you'll get more Momus than art; send him to write about religion and you'll get more Momus than religion; send him to review books and you'll get more Momus than books. For a blog that attracts his fans and admirers, that works just fine. In any real critical context, I think it'd immediately become clear that he wasn't actually doing much to address his own subjects.

eg er....i dunno, isnt hunter s thompson something to do with that?

i sure have read a lot of writing on the internet (maybe on pitchfork er.....) that is like: "Wiley: Treddin on Thin Ice. The otehr day I went into Rhythm Division and bought some Wonder tunes then I chatted to Davinche etc etc etc"

END OF AN ERA

You can cut a slice out of America, Britain or Japan at any point and you'll basically get the same textures.

This is utter bollocks. If you take "slices" of the Northeast, Southeast, Midwest, Southwest, Northwest, mountain states and California, you'll find some commonalities, sure (They all have McDonald's!). But you'd find a zillion differences too -- some that would be readily apparent, others that might take a week or a year to sink in. The longer I lived in Tennessee, e.g., the more aware I became of how different it was from the Northeast where I grew up. So anyway, it's a silly idea.

Beyond that, while there's some truth in his (obvious) indictments of supermarket blandness and so forth, the trend is actually in the other direction. American supermarket shelves -- even in your smaller cities and suburbs -- have been getting more and more diverse. You still have to go to boutiquey places to get your really good cheese, hummus, whatever, but even boutiquey stuff is making it into some supermarkets. The American mainstream is getting more international and less bland. Although maybe you have to have lived here for 20 or 30 years to know that.

awesome

great, and so true. i am amazed yet not surprised how americans got so defensive. ive been around most states in the u.s. - im not from the us but i live here right now- and ive eaten in all kinds of contexts (i eat organic all the time, if youd attack me about that) and i still will say that imomus is absolutely right. i had about the same conversation about two years ago, with an emphasis on blandness, food etc (we didnt even mention the clothing style because its a little too redundant) with two german friends. and if you want some variety: korean friends said korean food here doesn't taste like that in korea, but rather like american food (and this even is referring to a korean restaurant owned and operated by koreans), japanese say the same, etc etc. besides that, no american friend of mine could understand when i criticized the blandness of lifesytle, UNTIL they went overseas and actually experinced the lifestyle at another place not in their same old american ways (yeah man i went to the hard rock cafe in paris) but in the way that the locals would...
i am sorry but this is a country where everything is learned from tv. the first time i came here, noone would wear black nor had cell phones, etc. and all girls started wearing black, designer purses, talking nonstop on the phone.... i dont watch tv (i havent owned one in 7 years) but it doesnt take too much imagination to know that its all coming from the sex and the city..
and all the (clothing) stores are now hiring gay men. it is, i have no doubt, due to that queer eye bla bla show. (i am amazed btw that no one single gay man ever feels bothered by the ultimate reinforcement of the stereotyping that is created by that stupid show).

anyway. my conclusion with that discussion id had was that one reason amercicans are so obese is that there is no real sense of satisfaction with the food. eat all you want, there is no overwhelming feeling except if your stomach is about to blast. nothing, though, re: taste.

anwyay i gotta go now but i just wanted to express that there are many people who would agree with imomus.

have a nice day-

What the hell??

!!!

1995: 33.8
1996: 44.0
1997: 55.3
1998: 69.2
Sex and the City debuts
1999: 86.0
2000: 109.5
2001: 128.4
2002: 140.8

I think you'll find that Charlotte does wear some black. There's your culprit, America.

so was chop suey.

(warning: i have acted insane abt this phenom b4)

Washington, DC is probably the most closely planned city in the United States; therefore it is the most attractive U.S. city. Oh wait.

xpost

Wrong.

http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Pizza/PizzaHistory.htm

Talking fashion trash when the people backing you up come from a country widely stereotyped as putting pink floral-print shirts together with orange pants and lime-green and beige backpacks: C/D?

(post-fire london is PLANNED!!? who knew?)

Not only that, but he's looking for things in the most misguided places. Like his buying sushi at a supermarket and then complaining that it's not very flavorful. Or buying ice cream from a Mr. Softee truck and then complaining that it's kind of bland. Or looking for peace & quiet in the middle of NYC. It's almost like what he's really writing is a plea for a good tour guide.

If he hasn't been here all along. I wonder who the mysterious anonymous poster who started this thread might be...

A socks and sandals wearing German!

On the lavenderface issue, the thing is, Nick is massively queer-identified and I think his issue is a horror of 'straights' whoever it is they fuck. I can't blame him, nor do I blame him for wanting to see the queer end of the gay march (if he were 15 he'd be looking for the other Cure fans at the mall, Dan Perry) because that's where his affinities lie. Your affinities slightly different? Fine. He's never exactly aspired to a particular set of acquisitive/conformist values he sees in many Americans - didn't need to because his talent got recognised early - and criticises the wagon-circling Puritanism which manifests itself as one national thought bubble going 'the neighbours can never know'.

Also don't think you'll see him for dust on this thread today because he's sitting in an art gallery in Chelsea with a cloth hood on, telling stories while a Japanese artist sings. There. Are you angry yet?

Also http://www.washingtonianmagazine.com/dining/pizza.html

My second surprise was that DOC Neapolitan pizza is not the rule in Naples. L’Antica Pizzeria da Michele on Via Cesare Sersale, which still has its original tables and chairs from the 1880s, serves Marinaras and Margheritas—the only variation permitted is double mozzarella. Most places serve these, but almost every pizzeria also has its house specialties.

>i am sorry but this is a country where everything is learned from tv.<

While hyperbolic, I think this is truer than it's ever been.

>i am amazed btw that no one single gay man ever feels bothered by the ultimate reinforcement of the stereotyping that is created by that stupid show<

I'm amazed he didn't ask us!

Also suzy, what is that parenthetical aside that namechecks me supposed to mean? Because right now I'm reading it as "Shame on you, Dan Perry, for not thinking Nick is great because he's JUST LIKE YOU, SEE?" and that doesn't make any sense because he's rather obviously not like me at all.

I am trying to understand what was said but on first glance it appears to be incoherent, defensive protectionism of a friend. Which sure, I get that, but why exactly should I care if Momus would look for the Cure fans in a mall crowd? Am I suddenly 14 again?

xpost

to put it nicely

http://www.trainedfleas.com/fleaimages/poster.gif

nabisco never not OTM.

Gear quite OTM too.

The problem with America is that too many moderately educated middle class people have low-demand jobs that allow them to post to web boards, without actually having the leisure to do so without being rushed or careless about it.

Also, whatever nabisco said is probably otm.

*Look, I'm doing it again!)

Well, yes. I think that's the underlying thesis of this entire thread. How daring of you to point it out.

And that's one patrol we could stand to have Mr. Human J. Darn!elle back on!

i don't think he IS a japanophile really, or that he "identifies gay" in any grounded way: they're just getting the benefit of the Projection Of All That Is Lovely at the moment - he's a bit too nervous of exploring/ackowledging/accepting the ugly or boring or lame side of either to really be called a lover

I thought it was the thin end of the gay march he wanted to see?

xpost walter, tsk, it's like teh portly rotund bellies that are the result of too much time in the gym! Does he contradict himself? Well, then, he contradicts himself! He is an arse, he contains multitudes.

1) 5 kinds of hard italian cheese
2) crumbled dutch blue cheese, with possibly a few whole hunks of either gorgonzola or roquefort
3) shrink-wrapped varieties of meunster
4) shrink-wrapped varieties of havarti
5) port wine cheddar rolled in nuts
6) mozarella
7) President-brand camembert
8) gouda
9) brie
10) "organic" cheddar
11) feta

this would be grounds for outrage in pretty much any european supermarket. really, many corner shops in london have more/better cheese than this. so can we put this "the US does SO have good cheese" argument to rest? no doubt there are cheeses to rival the great cheese-wheels of constantinople in the US, but if you can't get to them without travelling or paying lots of money ...

the thing is, are European supermarkets otherwise analogues of American ones? are they distinguishable only in their cheese selection? or are European supermarkets better analogized to American gourmet shops? how frequently does each occur?

i mean it's rather reinforcing Momus's arg. to say "well just go to Nobu if you want great sushi!"

Nobu is what everyone knows. but there's great sushi all over Manhattan. in just my neighborhood, there's Sushi of Gari, Sushi Hatsu, Geisha, Ikeno Hana, Sushi Seki, Sen-Nin, Kai, Tsuki, Tanuki, Poke, and Choux Factory.

To repeat myself, you don't go to a gay pride parade "to see the queer end" any more than you go the supermarket for proper stinky cheese. "The real queers aren't going to the parades," to misquote mark s quoting Malcolm Mclaren, and that's been the case since...I dunno. A WHILE.

criticises the wagon-circling Puritanism which manifests itself as one national thought bubble going 'the neighbours can never know'

Except when it's as blatant a bit of sex-and-identity-based exhibitionism as showing off your body. Eww! (BTW -- how much you wanna make a bet some of the bellies Nick saw were Crix Bellies?)

Nobu isn't even known for sushi! They do it well enough, but the real talent is in the kitchen, not at the sushibars.

sidenote to gabbneb: Sushi of Gari took a big step down from my last visit, but Seki (ex-Sushi of Gari) took a big step up (except when the chef tried something creative but failed). Extra points to Seki for keeping high-quality at late hours. That said, I like Yasuda better than these though (for NYC).

French supermarkets often look slightly gourmetesque to Americans despite an increasingly larger amount of processed crap. They invariably have better cheese selections (hardly shocking) and they don't have chicken per se but roosters, hens, Bresse chickens, etc... Many Californian supermarkets have better Asian/Mexican sections but, again this is hardly surprising, and French ones have good North African sections and increasingly, Chinese, Japanese, and Thai spices/ingredients, though, interestingly sometimes somewhat frenchified. The average French supermarket has much better (to my taste) butter but most people buy much worse milk (that vile boxed stuff), probably on account of boiling much of it for their morning coffee. Their veg. is better than, say, Safeway or Albertson's (if that means anything to you) but not quite as varied as it is here and theirs tends to be more in season, though there are some Southern Hemisphere imports in winter. In my experience, the average French shopper isn't a much better cook than most Americans but they do tend to pay more for better quality than many Americans would (even when they have modest incomes), tend to insist on 'real' food as opposed to diet versions, and don't eat as much as we do. The French actually invented super and hypermarkets in the 50's and as anyone who has been to Carrefour and its ilk can testify, they have the same lovely 'texture' as a angry baboon's ass, but they're cheap and you can do a lot of shopping in one place, unlike the urban streets where everything is very specialized (butcher, bakery, deli, corner store).

Tracer Hand OTM. In the Washington, DC area a lot of the traditional sorts of these places died out during the last generation or so. The recent immigration waves (Vietnamese, Ethiopian, Thai, and Salvadorian in the Washington area) have brought with them a new breed of ethnic markets, but it takes a certain amount of experience to distinguish these stores'/cuisines' counterpart of ramen from their "authenic," quality stuff.

(BTW, isn't it kind of strange for Momus to be talking about authenticity, in any context?)

From my boyfriends mid-west family, a saying:
"Don't go to the hardware store for milk."

Isn't this the same guy who started a label called "American Patchwork" and gets all creamy over Matthew Barney? Whatever dude. You are not Andy Warhol and the surface is not all there is. As far as food goes, he should overcome himself and sit down to dinner with an old farm family in the midwest. If he's never had homemade strawberry pie, savory pot-roast or even fresh corn on the cob from local farms, he knows nothing of 'American food'. (Mr.Softee?? Are you kidding me?) He's never worked a 12 hour day in an auto factory = he knows nothing of American culture/life/values. Let them wear sweatpants and have their TV shows! They bust their asses and they have enough shit to deal with! America will never be good enough for some people, so please just stay the hell away if you don't like it, you aren't helping . Make room for people who want to make it better!

It's just an acquired and refined taste. It's not cool. It's delicious, if you're into it.

yeah, i was wondering that myself.

M. White i have always wondered about how asian countries seem to have no use for cheese whatsoever! it is totally weird??!

?

By this standard, I know nothing of American culture/life/values and, outside of the summer between high school and college, I've lived here all my life.

Can you blame him? This is a relentlessly OTM thrashing of everything that he is. He may as well go fall on a sword after this thread.

And yeah, neo-conservative is a perfectly apt description of his cultural values.

that's just as ridiculous a position as that which people are criticizing momus for having (and the jury is out on that question).

(XPOST w/ dan)

http://www.frencheese.co.uk/glossary/images/cheese/mimolette-ms.jpg

Asians, being civilized people are not attracted to food products made from the stinking, rotted lactation of mammmals. Go figure.

n/a, probably none though they do have good snausages and whatnot = charcuterie.

take it completely out of the context of imomus and this thread if it helps - this is a beautifully expressed thought. it's not an uncommon sentiment i suppose, but it gave me pause.

It's suprising that a largely lactose-intolerant population isn't keen to dairy products? Huh.

Low priority or nonstop laff riot?

(XPOST w/ dan)

Maybe a little strong, but ridiculous? Whatever. My point is that
stinky cheese and decent sushi is not high on the list of concerns for people who barely have time to (or energy) to make themselves dinner and take care of kids, etc etc.

I think you're thinking of something way more hoity-toity than I am. I'll grant you that a good fish market is probably only concievable somewhere near an ocean (though I got Google hits for "fish market" looking up such landlocked places as Iowa City and ha-ha Knoxville) but you are NOT going to tell me they don't have butchers or cheese shops out in the boonies. Especially where there are dairy farms in reasonable proximity!

"crix belly" = enlarged, slightly misshapen fat deposits that congregate around the waist caused by the use of Crixivan (also affects the neck and upper back), which was the protease inhibitor of choice a few years back. IIRC, a few years ago Larry Kramer was photographed near-nude, showing off his body in advanced stages of Crix-use.

This is so laughably wrong. There are local dairies all over the Midwest which may not carry a gigantic assortment of imported cheeses but do pump out oodles of domestic cheeses.

i mean this has been going on about two years that he's been like this, but he seems to keep reaching deeper into his own asshole. nick's point about the smog review--that he mischaracterizes bill's singing style to suit his own prejudices-- is basically in microcosm what he does with most everything. it's exhausting and i wish i never came into contact with momus, now.

There is something strangely poetic about this.

one of things that momus has ALWAYS done, hell it's one of the things that's made momus momus, is review albums as though they were (like momus's essays) missives in some sort of ideological battle BEFORE they were, y'know, music. so if the music doesn't exactly fit the category he's slotted it into (and it rarely does, because music is by nature kind of a difficult thing to make "signify" in some obvious and simple way), he just locks on to some conscious mischaracterization of the music. or doesn't talk about the music at all but rather the whole "aura" around the music (which is usually based on a casual glance, like the ice cream in new york thing.)

arrrrrrgh.

cheap shot: unless, of course, you are momus.

i hope this quote is real, because it's beautiful.

xpost

Is Cheese Smuggling the Answer?

And as hard as it can be to find decent Mexican food in New York, it's much harder in Florence.

i guess i was participating in a little momuslike overstatement there.

so in fact i don't know what the cheese-availability situation is in the whole of england or even a reasonable cross-section of same.

its a blog entry.......everyone here seems to be treating this text as though its a post on ILX?! I know its been said above, but you seem to be ignoring this fact! Are you saying that opther bloggers never post things with so authoritively? Hes got a comments box for petes sake! that gives as much possibility for discourse as on NYLPM!

Honestly, you might disagree with what he said, but to try and denigrate him for appearing self assured and aloof, well thats what blog entries do! its un-edited, un-controlled publishing!

Mexico is in North America.

So is Central America.

im afraid to me a lot of ILX comes off as hectoring and flippant, so i dont see momus' version to be anymore odious.....

Not at all! Like every country in Africa to thread. And Turkey...

How does this relate to what i said?

point is, america is hardly the most diverse country in the world.

if there's an urban ethnicity not present in large numbers in the US, i don't know what it would be (though i imagine there are many rural ethnicities not present)

"bring me yr huddled masses" was a motto with a consequence: european colonisation didn't produce migrations and settlings on the same scale

Fish markets I will grant you. But if there's an Ottomanelli-type butcher in the Washington area, I'd like to know about it.

Right, that's why Seattle, San Francisco, and NYC all have great farmers markets. As does Boston, a few days a week, although it's not on the same scale.

Portland also has one on Saturdays, I'm not sure what other days of the week its held.

his "reviews" of america used to be more observational, less dismissive. he even had nice things to say about connecticut if i recall!

-- maria tessa sciarrino (mari...) (webmail), June 29th, 2005 1:22 AM. (theoreticalgirl) (later) (link)

THAT IS FOR FUCKING SURE.

which is more than i can say for myself, i must admit.

-Not at all! Like every country in Africa to thread. And Turkey...

Why bring up Turkey? They've got Turks and Kurds and a lot of really tiny minorities (with the Turks being overwhelmingly dominant), I don't see the multiculture.

In Knoxville, Dan, I can tell you, I never once visited a "cheese shop" or "butcher" or "fish market" or even "bakery" in my eighteen years growing up there, and never heard my parents mention going to places like this. They may have, for a special occasion, maybe, that I didn't know about. A "bakery" was a factory that smelled good. Which is what I meant by "not possible." i.e. people don't go there, they are not cornerstones of life.

Are you seriously telling me that in midsized american towns, the only places that sell food are supermarkets? Australia's not a teeming hotbed of sophistication outside of Melb and Sydney at ALL, yet any small town or city will have a bakery, a butcher and probably a deli, as well as the general store or supermarket. Sure, fish shops and cheese shops and stuff are probably more specialist, as would be the need for a market. But little towns always have a bakers and a butcher shop!

There are also convenience stores and gas stations, most of them carrying a full range of crispy corn- and potato-based products in a wide array of seasonings, from Mesquite Bar-B-Q to Cool Ranch.

But yeah, the baker/butcher thing, not so much.

Anyway.

There have been a couple of bakery/cafe chains in the last 10 years (Atlanta Bread Company, Panera, some others I can't think of) that sort of sell the idea of going to a bakery. Trying to do for bakeries what Starbucks did for coffee shops. Which means their actual baked goods are terrible, of course. There's also a small trend toward more actual locally-owned bakeries, which is nice, but at most that's going to be a boutiquey thing like microbrewed beer.

Momus, you are becoming the Taki of the blogosphere.

Again..."tonier"? I mean, my first-hand experience w/ butcher/baker/cheese shops/fish stores comes from Nassau and Suffolk counties on Long Island, hardly not just even the "nicer" parts like, oh, Garden City or whatever. There's nothing remotely "tony" about them or their clientele (OK, maybe not so much cheese shops) or location, and I'm not even talking about the Italian specialty stores where you get your sausage or black & white cookies.

Since 75% of Americans live in an urban area (w/ about 45% in the top twenty-five metro areas, in which Nassau-Suffolk is considered part of the greater NYC one) I think saying "it's a city thing, ergo, an odd bird" is maybe not warrented.

no deli or butcher, either - yup, trayce, most small american towns do not have these things

Wow. I grew up in - and still live in - a village of maybe 5,000 people. It's always had a bakery, and had a butcher until about a year ago; plus a greengrocer and two small supermarkets. And this isn't in the *remote* countryside; there's a Greeley-sized town about five miles away.

i don't get the connection
I dunno, seemed like he had critiqued things like, um, American consumerism and racism more cleverly, deeply and compassionately, and with more artisty round about fifty years ago.

Meanwhile, my town (18,000) has its own cooperative dairy with its own store and a really great local bakery and a decent local market in addition to the state chain supermarket.

I think the moral of the story is thus: MINNESOTA RULES.

Fuck that! I'm American and I probably weigh less than Momus! And I'm approximately 6'3"!

My city's got about a quarter-million people living in the vicinity and I think there are about two or three butchers here (one of those might be more seafood-related) and about ten or fifteen independently-owned bakeries. That's possibly a lot for a medium-sized American city.

Well, I'm all cock -- the rest is an optical illusion. ; )

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1073437473850_2004/01/09/10n_sjparker.jpg

Excuse me?????

-- Tracer Hand (tracerhan...), June 28th, 2005.

Murry's - bleeker st! BOO-YA!

how do I make the italics?

WINGS DELI.

WINGS DELI.

Just saying, like.

Yeah, I know. it's just that I got really amped for saying Murry's Cheese - BOOYAA!

Cus, you know.

ITS A FUCKING PIRATE YO!!!!!

I think what's getting under my skin is this barely-spoken assumption I'm seeing that in America, urban life is this big exception to "the way people really live," not quite trodding into strawman-Republican shaking-down-Sodom-and-Gommorah territory but still...

This is interesting 'cause I would say that much of French culture assumes that the 'real' France is the countryside with its terroirs, its connection to the soil and the fruits thereof. What's odd in America is that while cities have been castigated as immoral, insufficiently 'American', snooty, and dangerous, and successfully enough for long enough now that I would surmise that many of the 'Red State' majority might look upon them as tolerable camps for freaks and queers, and only good for the occasional visit, the winner is not rural 'culture' which is increasingly moribund, but suburban culture, which, on account of its relative novelty is more bland and uniform across the nation than are the cities or country. I have lived in some rather nice suburbia and I would still take the city or bumfark nowhere over their soul-crushing boredom. Walking down the Embarcadero yesterday evening, we were talking about the resurgence of cities in America, how when I was a child in the 70's everybody (white) wanted to flee to the 'burbs to get away from bussing and undesirable ethnic groups and crumbling tax revenues/infrastructure but how now, parking lots are disappearing so people can build giant condos. There was something recently in our inestimable local paper about some suburban couple, who having shipped the kiddies off to college, decided they no longer needed to live in suburbia and moved into a downtown condo so they could have some fun in their dotage.

There is something extremely human and liberating about living in a neighborhood zoned and developped so that you can make most of your purchases on foot, get off your ass, stroll, and befriend your neighbors and local store owners, that I simply do not feel as I scream at braindamaged morons blocking two lanes and preventing people from leaving or parking in the parking lot at Costco.

HELLO IS MOMUS THERE?

Well, you know those fast-paced, on-the-go rural types.

I don't know of this Ottomanelli in which you speak but isn't there a big butcher shop like off Pennsylvania? Eastern Market area? I was instructed to go there, not that I have, because fuck going all the way over there.

Anyway my experience is having free access to all sorts of delis, butchers, bakers blah blah blah (BTW NYCers if you go to Fairway on the correct days I swear to god they're dealing in illegal Euro cheeses, and I can get people to back me up on this), but that's cos I'm city trash.

Bleeker st has better food than france. Fuck Momus.

JAPAN IS SO MUCH FUN

I'm not sure I agree with this or your characterisations in general about France. Sure, a cultural emphasis on food is far more general in France, and it is also less class-based. But it's still class-based, particularly in the large cities. Poor people still eat a huge amount of crappy processed foods. Just go into one of the many dozens of Mr Ed discount supermarkets dotted around Paris.

But poverty is much less visible in a place like Paris than it is in London or New York. That's because so much of it is shipped out to distant ghetto satellites. Hot spots like Mantes-La-Jolie are actually at least an hour away on the train. That gives one the impression if you're in Paris that it is all much more homogeneously middle-class, with middle-class culinary values etc, than it really is.

yeah, and I also like when people forget that more than half the area of the continental US is below the 40th parallel (i.e. South of Barcelona), and that a huge swath in the middle and West of the country is characterized by extremely low density and little in the way of farming conditions. there is less terroir culture in the U.S., because there is less terroir. and France would not be France if it had an Outback (er).

i know the town i grew up in - greeley, CO - pop. 70,000 or so - had no bakery, unless you count the discount Hostess store where you can get 50% off twinkies a bakery

well, it apparently has several now

BTW NYCers if you go to Fairway on the correct days I swear to god they're dealing in illegal Euro cheeses

Fairway probably has the best selection of Spanish cheese in the U.S. I want to know how j.lu. knows Ottomanelli.

Indeed. I'm cooking magret de canard tonight. Picked up at my local (Parisian) supermarket I might add!

Jonathan, do you serve it on arugula/rocket?

Through their offerings in Amazon.com's gourmet food section. (I know of no one else who craves meat the way I do, and I also crave variety. Fortunately, I also am too frugal to order their wild boar roasts, or pheasants, or other delicacies that wouldn't be found in a typical American grocery store.)

There will also be corn served.

I'm adventurous but not that adventurous, unless it's like trotters.

Momus wins.

I think it really depends on what part of the country you're in re: butchers, delis, etc. I have no problem finding any of these things but I could probably see them being scarce in other places, esp. ones where the super wal-marts dominate.

Then, I visited San Francisco, San Diego, LA, Las Vegas, Seattle, Houston, Dallas, Philadelphia, D.C., etc. Just the difference within one state is noticeable. Visit different parts of NY or CT sometime. Momus is a douchebag.

just baked and wildflour dont count, they were bagel shops!

i think it's rather annoying that momus comes on here to make a funny ("how can a funny not be a funny?" "when it's not funny"). but i guess it's better than him "debating" in his momuslike "shift the grounds of debate with every other post" manner.

Lots of small to mid-size towns now have Mexican grocery stores and other such places. Which pretty much justifies illegal immigration all by itself.

The main street shops in my suburb has 2 franchise bakeries (theyre little shopfronts with small onsite bakery things out back, I assumed this was totally common?!), at least 2 or 3 other bakeries (a Russian one which is nice), 2 bagel shops and a jewish cookie shop, probably half a dozen butcher/deli/fishmonger places (some kosher, some not), and a health food store. This is AS WELL as the 2 supermarkets in the street,

You could walk the length of where these shops all are in maybe 10 minutes tops.

Tons of suburbs have similar.

I'm now very pleased I live where I do. I also presume, as an aside, momus has never been to australia? Heh.

tracer there is a sushi joint (albeit owned/staffed by koreans, quel horreur) on your block.

Gradually as people taste them there will be a wider demand for more subtle cheeses and the market will comply. Yawn.

You can indeed. I will imagine you all sitting around hstencil's feet, taking lessons in the true meaning of generosity.

You can indeed. I will imagine you all sitting around hstencil's feet, taking lessons in the true meaning of generosity.

He has given me plenty of killer tapas, dude!!

I agree with several of the observations about the homogeneity of American food, even when it is "ethnic" food, but you've got to know where to go to get decent food. That's what makes it fun, the search!

As to the disappointment with the gay community--it really is a mistake to expect gay people to be hipsters, or even interesting. They are just as likely to be just as boring as hetereosexual people. It sounds like Momus hasn't found the right crowd to run with, and is frustrated. I can understand that. I hope you find them, M, they are out there.

mo mus mo probs