How can you tell if someone is just creepy or actually a pedophile?

(there was also a kid that went to my high school that was a complete dork. maybe I can't speak, since I was too. anyways, long story short, he was 16 and having sex with his 12 year old neighbor, and photographing it. kid brought the film to Wal-Mart. yeah, we wasn't bright. upon returning to high school, he was forever nicknamed "Kiddy Porn". I've since seen him on both myspace and whenever I check the CT List of Sexual Predators for people I went to high school with and the occasional attractive MILF type that slept with a 14 year old (which I check once every few months).

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, shit, I'm posting here, right?

>'we wasn't bright'<

I've been up since 5 this morning. I'm allowed a typo here and there.

xpost

Men can't even get jobs at daycares now, its so bad.

He came very close to being fired, his rep being destroyed etc etc but the girls then owned up they hated him so thought it'd be "funny" to accuse him of something shitty. Til they saw how serious such accusations can be.

I think I remember hearing that someone I graduated from high school with was busted for either kiddie porn or child molestation. He was creepy like that. So, maybe my radar for that kind of thing is good. Dunno.

Unlike Scott, I wouldn't have trouble leaving our kids at a daycare center that hired men.

I'll share some stuff anyway.

As a kid growing up in Massachusetts I have more memories from advancing pedos than young schoolgirls (up until 13 anyway). These are the two I believe were most likely pedophiles or something of the sort.

1. The flaming neighbor with orange hair who was constantly looking for young boys to walk his poodle when he was away being an airline steward and visiting his boyfriend in Amsterdam (I wish I were making this up). He would exclusively ask the neighborhood boys if they wanted a job walking his dog. I remember he approached me for the job when I was alone but my mom saw us and immediately wanted to know what was going on. He didn't talk to me again. My friend actually did it for him (all of us had been approached) and he recalled naked men all over his bedroom walls. I didn't ask him if anything happened though. I'm not as clear about him actually doing anything as I am of number two...

2. This one man had no family or kids of his own and was known almost exclusively as someone who hung out at schools and youth sports programs around the town, introducing himself to the young boys. I had never seen him talk to an adult before and he was always making friends with the young schoolboys. I remember when I met him he was ambiguous about who he was and what he was doing talking to me. I asked my friend about this man years after grade school and after a mutual smirking about him he said he still hangs out at the school today. It was his unhealthy obsession with the young boys coupled with the fact he often approached them like he knew them (when he obviously didn't) and also didn't bother to really remember names that is what makes it so odd. He would also put on a sort of naivè persona on in front of everybody but a couple of times I remember him making some snide remarks that suggested a bitterness and wit he had never shown before. I asked my father about him on the phone recently and he said the town gossips called him the "town pedo" and warned him a long time ago.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/4264/logo3ag.jpg

I find that weird. I know a dude who works at a day care center, and I really wouldn't have thought many people would have that attitude. Even if I didn't already know him, I would assume he just happened to be good with kids and in need of a job.

Yeah, really. "So your friends on the internet said to keep me away from the kids? Kinda creepy..."

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photos/daybyday-1988.jpg

Donald Trump=creep
typical Steve Buscemi persona=creepy

it's more irrational than weird. But i'm kind of irrational about my kids. i just trust women more when it comes to kids. i agree that there is a hysteria about child-abuse, but there is a reason why women are allowed to be left alone with children in certain child-care situations and men aren't. i feel bad for male kindergarten teachers who are afraid to hug or touch their students, i do, and it can obviously be taken too far. but i still wouldn't like the idea of some guy i don't know changing my child's diaper all day long. sorry. i don't even know the women who changed his diaper all day long that well, but i never worried about it. i would worry too much.call me crazy and alarmist and insensitive if you want. maybe if they were older i wouldn't care as much. my mother worked at a Y for years and one of her helpers was a really cool guy. they looked after older kids though. if i knew that it was someone like him i wouldn't have a problem. but how would i know that? and he was really really gay, so that's not my problem. extra-gay even.

I am even leery of putting too much of myself here on the ILX board. It’s difficult to get the creep factor without human interaction; so much as I luv y’all, I prefer to remain cautious instead of sorry. This should go double for anyone who has kids and is getting the creeps from someone associating with them – no matter who. Reminder that molestations happen even within families sadly. Good idea to keep someone to supervise everyone as you said using “for everyone’s protection”. Well done.

Kisses, Be safe!
Ms. Paranoia.

wait, there is a creep lobby now! it is true, creepy people have rights too.

yes! i am. and as such, i am a teensy weensy overprotective. So sue me!

I find its the same way with Witches.

Van conversions.

http://www.vannin.com/gallery2/images/99nats%20Darkstar.jpg

Custom-shaped windows and airbrushed murals are also key, esp. if they depict Native American warriors or eagles.

I'm so sorry...

The vast, vast, vast majority of child sex abuse takes place within the immediate family, yet people waste so much time trying to decide what a paedophile "look like" in case they see one on the street.

My brother, who suffers from mild autism, has an odd beard, is very overweight, doesn't like making eye-contact and is very, very single is not a paedophile. Yet that didn't stop some local fuckers deciding that because he was hanging around in a park during working hours (he was drawing flowers and was unemployed at the time) he must be a child molester, and started a whispering campaign against him that ultimately led to his windows being smashed and basically forced him to move house.

This is what happens when people "trust their parental instincts". This is what happens when people decide that someone's a pervert based on how they look. Perfectly nice, regular innocent people end up getting hurt. So just don't even bother.

Sorry for going off on one, but this issue is kinda close to my heart.

Couldn't agree more, this thread is quite sickening in it's displace of judge*mentalism*.

erm.. if he's away as an airline steward and being gay, how would he be paedophiling the young boys????

I apologize to anyone who is sickened by this thread. The question came from a real concern of mine, but I was being flippant with the comments about soft hands and computers and trips to Thailand.

Sunshine, what happened to your brother is so wrong. Sorry to be insensitive and set of a nerve.

I have heard the rumors about this guy but have not spread them or repeated them to anyone (except of course posting about him on the Internet, but I'm assuming no one here will know who I'm talking about). I want to believe that he's just a nice guy. My suspicions of him are not in any way based on his quirky appearance. There are just so many people who would otherwise be involved with this project we're working on who have said "that guy's involved? oh, no I can't be around him".

I think I got a very valuable answer to my predicament upthread -- proposing a policy so teens and children aren't left alone with anyone besides perhaps a parent -- so hopefully we can avoid not only a potential pedo problem, but false accusations, as well.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000K3CL.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

This is like, when my friend Shawn walked into a conversation we were having in college about whether or not Ricky Martin was gay, he cocked his head quizzically and said, "Well, I don't know. Does he fuck men?"

any parent?

I know Scott's owned up that his deal with child-care facilities is a li'l irrational, so I ain't browbeating you man, but...I dunno, you impugn a lot of loving, caring, selfless professionals with whom it has been my privilege to have worked.

http://www.lifetime.com/images/Headers/Home3.jpg

I have no problem with male childcare workers.

Scott is the primary caregiver of our children. He says when he takes the kids to playgroup at the community center, the other moms give him the cold shoulder. They're chatty with me. Whether it's real or imagined, he senses distrust from other people of him as a male taking care of children.

When I'm on my lunch break or doing errands by myself, people who would otherwise claim to be pc or not sexist act shocked to see me without my children ("who's watching the kids?") because I'm the mom. Sometimes people even say "Is Scott babysitting for you?"

that was not what i was trying to do. my hypothetical was a very specific hypothetical. I wasn't talking about health-care workers, doctors, teachers, etc. my point was simply: i, irrationally, would have a problem with a man changing my toddler's diapers all day. It is very intimate work. The women at Rufus's day-care have toddlers and babies in their laps all day long. Frankly, I don't even know if they would allow a man to change diapers and have kids in their lap at most places with the rules being what they are. sometimes i go to day-care to get him and i see women that i've never even seen before working there. I don't even know who they are. This is a town-run place by the way. this doesn't bother me. If i went in and saw a man there that I had never seen working with my child? I would be very uncomfortable with it. I feel bad about that, but it's the truth.

Okay, here's a nice sad story. I was gonna save it for later, but you have all been so good: My dad retired and wanted to do something part-time to fill his hours and he got a job with child protective services in his state. his job was to look in on kids whose parents were neglectful/drug-addicted, shuttle foster-kids from here to there, the full gamut of sadness involving kids and the state.it was tough stuff! he loved it. the kids loved him. he really felt like he was doing good work and he really wanted to help. They fired him. He wasn't following the rules closely enough. he went into a kid's room to help the kid find his homework and he was without a chaperone for a couple of minutes. a young girl jumped on him and he immediately didn't throw her to the ground or whatever it is they tell you to do if a child comes in contact with you. these few things were relayed back to his boss and they cut him loose. my dad said they were visibly relieved to get rid of him, because he was the only man in the office and now they didn't have to worry about any of that stuff. because a woman does not have these kinds of problems. none of the rules that he broke would have been blinked at if a woman had been involved. and the whole thing broke his heart. he loves kids. and he didn't let it stop him. he does part-time work for catholic charities looking after a small boy with severe autism. so, um, i understand what people go through. people who just want to help.

In fairness though, Martin, female perpetrators are quite rare. All my time in psych I only ever met one. I'm largely on your side - what's needed is a huge societal re-thinking of gender, as far as I'm concerned - and if we put the gender ideas at play in this thread right next door in the House of Race, the thread would explode with vitriol, even though it's not really that different to say "I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that neighborhood, I'm just not gonna let my kid visit anybody who lives there - call me overzealous if you must" etc

And again Scott I'm not crackin' on you or anything - your single-father role is unique and I'd almost argue that it's a biological imperative that you be protective to a fault, and overcautiousness, while good fodder for threads, isn't really gonna hurt anybody as far as I'm concerned. It's just a good springboard for discussing irrational prejudices. When I first started working with adolescents, in 1989, any kid who listened to thrash was considered a lost cause by pretty much anybody in authority. And now look: one of 'em's a concerned parent! :)

Still, I think that some creedence should be given to instinct. If this guy raises the hair on the back of so many necks, shouldn't I consider why? I have not heard the pedo accusation from many people, mostly people say "that guy creeps me out". I don't know if the pedo rumor is widespread and, like I said, have not spread it any further.

It comes down to one of those issues of erring on one side to protect someone from false accusations or on the other side to protect kids. The policy that caused scott's dad to lose his job is probably a good one and I think even he understood its merit despite becoming the victim in the situation.

Fuck instinct in the ear. Seriously.

So much of what people attribute to "instinct" is socialised prejudice that trusting your default reaction on ANYTHING without going through some internal due diligence process is a complete mug's game.

Alan, isn't this like the description of Ultimate Comic Book Fan?

Actually, I don't believe there is a 'child-molester instinct' that is special to parents at all. What is it in being a parent that would give my brother this (he has two daughters), but not me?

What Drs. Wynne-Edwards and Storey found were significant changes in the men's levels of the following hormones: prolactin, a female hormone involved in milk production and possibly maternal and paternal behavior; estradiol, a principal form of the female hormone estrogen; cortisol, a hormone related to stress responsiveness; and testosterone, a male hormone associated with aggression.

At the same time, of course, it's quite reasonable to say "hormones are one thing, fucking ESP is another."

(he rides a reclining bike BTW)

Okay, TOTAL PEDOPHILE.

Don't you have to be investigated, police records etc, before being allowed to work with kids in the US?

The situation I'm talking about is a creative project that doesn't involve paid employment.

crosspost

Another thing is: my mother taught me to trust my instincts when playing outside. If someone behaved in a creepy manner around me, I felt comfortable getting away from them and telling her. Then they would maybe try to remove me from the situation without staging a witch hunt about it.

Moreover, child molestation shouldn't be segregated from other forms of child abuse, I believe. I was never sexually molested by an adult, but I can think of lots of other things that adults did to me that disturbed me. For example, one time a nun dug her claws into my neck to the point that it hurt. It was so stealthy ('cos if she'd smacked me or something people would see) and passive-aggressive, and I found that much more intimidating than if she'd just slapped my behind. Sexual molestation is a violation just like any other form of child abuse. There are all sorts of ways of violating, demeaning and controlling children - sexual abuse is only one way. I imagine its far worse, too, when you can't escape the perpetrator, when they're living in or near your house and making you feel like it's all your fault.

I just think pedophilia hysteria is so phony, because the parents who get the most hysterical about it usually treat their children like property (we've all seen parents like this) and not like thinking human beings.

One more thing: many obsessives take great pains to avoid looking like an obsessive...in fact, you can often spot them by how hard they work to avoid dealing directly with the thing they're obsessing upon, i.e., they seek ways to get close to the object of their obsession without leaving an obvious trail. I'm sure you're all aware of the high school tactic of 'ignoring' someone just to hurt them....

I would not hire someone to be involved with children if there were rumours of their molesting children, obviously. I'm reluctant to trust rumours, and would regret the 'no smoke without fire' thinking, but you simply can't hand the person children to take care of in those circumstances. I would also implement the very sensible early advice of not leaving one adult and one child alone together, if that is feasible (it would seem difficult in many circumstances), whether this person is involved or not.

maria's changing it to "a policy so teens and children aren't left alone with anyone besides perhaps a parent" seems a little funny, unless she means the child's own parent

Anyway...the library thing. Perverts will be attracted to places where they're 'not supposed to be'. I think the most common perversion is exposure - those people tend not to be physically threatening, they're acting out for some reason.

I almost shouted at someone yesterday because he asked me how to spell "dean's". He explained he had made the dean's list at the university he had attended before and he needed to know how it was spelled because he was filling out some financial aid forms. These kids are going to turn me into some shouty, crazy old lady.

And ousted.

Now I'm really going back to work.

"KIDDY FIDDLER!"

Good luck getting a kid to admit that they're stuck in a situation that is sexually (or otherwise) abusive.

I don't have the answers, but it just seems that all this talk of stranger 'pedophiles' is a distraction from the real perps who commit the majority of child abuse - parents and relatives. And that's more damaging since kids have to live with and adapt to those circumstances.

Some rational responses:

* Remembering that you never know who children need protection from, and coming up with systems that, as much as possible, don't put children in compromising positions. This might include making sure no adult is ever alone with a child (or children, although if the adult is alone with a roomful of children it seems unlikely that anything bad could happen).

* Remembering that rumors can spread very easily and can be very damaging (both in terms of an alleged pedophile's reputation and in terms of how well the adults can work together on the project) and coming up with systems that, as much as possible, prevent rumors from being spread. This might include again making sure no adult is ever left alone with a child (so the child can't invent a rumor) but it also means holding people accountable for the things they say (if an adult doesn't want to work with another adult then the adult needs to provide a solid and concrete reason why they feel this way, or else they need to lump it and focus on the work at hand).

* Doing a background check on all the people involved (including those who are not "creepy") to see if any are in fact convicted pedophiles (although this is probably not as effective as the first step in protecting children, unless you assume that most people who are a threat to children have already been caught at least once).

Systems to protect the children from predators and systems to protect the adults from rumors are both good. They should have been part of the planning before anyone was marked out as being "creepy", of course, since your better pedophiles will not come across as creepy. Although if you want to argue that children need protection from creepiness rather than pedophiles then this part of the argument will end up a little different.

Bad and irrational responses would include:

* Thinking that the "creepy" person is the only one children need protection from (again, unless you're protecting them from "creepiness" rather than the thing that creepiness is supposed to imply, or unless you prove a direct correllation between creepiness and danger).

* Trying to evaluate how the "creepy" person would behave in a hypothetical situation based only on circumstantial evidence, and acting on that evalutaion.

* Fetishizing the rumored pedophilia of the "creepy" person, to the point where you cannot think of the person without thinking of their (rumored) pedophilia, and to the point where it interferes with the larger project at hand, and you become a drain on the project.

This last point, however, is exceptionally difficult for people to get past, however, which is why you don't want unfounded rumors to start in the first place. It's great to be reminded that you need to protect the children you're working with; it's terrible to be reminded of this because of that guy who we are going to be working with on the project, and who has, as far as you know, done nothing wrong.

I guess babysitting is out of the picture, then.

Also, some people are just too damn weird about their kids - like if you're in the supermarket and a kid says or does something funny, and you laugh and say something to them....and the parent looks at you as if to say, "get the hell away from my kid."

I don't think instilling paranoia in kids or sheltering them is a good idea, either, but then again, some people thought my parents were too permissive and 'liberal'.

you know, some of us happen to have family members and friends who were abused by people who weren't family members of neighbors, so, um, i don't know, it happens. okay?

i agree about people being too freaky about their kids in public. men never ever say anything about the baby when i'm out and about. many men don't care about babies of course, but there is fear there too. that people will think they are weirdos. of course, women are all over the baby like a cheap suit.

nobosy has said anything like this on this thread. just so you know.

I don't understand

He was typing and feeding a baby at the same time.

A WITCH!

Oh, and one more thing: I am a COMPLETE and utter FREAK. And if it weren't for Maria, you can bet your bottom dollar I would have been the weird old dude living alone in an attic somewhere and shunned by all. I was fully prepared for this to be my future. Things didn't turn out that way, though. which is fine. I'm digging it. It's hard work, the kid thing. I never thought I'd be able to do it.

I am also not looking for weirdos in bushes. Most people are fine. I realize that. And as for me feeling uncomfortable with the idea of a dude watching my kid all day, well, maria said she wasn't uncomfortable with it. And if it ever came up we would do what all rational adults do. We would sit down, talk about it, and then we would do what she wanted to do.

Circle Of Dead Children – Zero Comfort Margin (Willowtip – 2005)

Hollywood would like you to believe that creepy kids – whether alive or undead – either recite stupid-ass nursery rhymes all day long, or else spend their time looking up at people and intoning, in a totally unscary whisper, cryptic stuff like: “There are dead people in my diaper…mostly.” This kind of thing always freaks Nicole Kidman out. But how on earth is this creepier than any *actual* grabby, nonsense-spewing, fluid-leaking, bacteria factory of a child? And given the choice, who wouldn’t rather have one of those creepy dead movie kids with their perfect posture and diction at home than the real-life feces machine they’ve already got? Which brings us to Circle Of Dead Children and their new 20 minute mcd. CODC are like the mysterious eye goo dripping down a soggy infant’s face. You aren’t sure if it’s an infection or if it serves a purpose. The same could be said for the band. They are a grindcore band’s grindcore band. Afficionados of the form will find much to delight in. Naysayers will laugh at the funny vocals and the speed with which the music is played. Their loss. This time the experts are right. There is an exhilarating frisson that one gets from their 50 second blasts. These slabs of sound seem to encapsulate eons of time and travel light years thru space. If they ever decided to become a black metal band, they would blow every tom, dick, and knut off the stage. Those short, sharp fusillades of splatterbeatnarcoterror fury extended any further could provide a listener with transcendental levels of cosmic consciousness that would unfold within them unto infinity. But there is something to be said for the economy of a “no wasted motion” ethos and the wisdom to know that imparting your truth a little at a time, so as not to frighten the unenlightened, and to cloak said truth in the garb of the shocking and the ridiculous, may be the smartest move. This is the purest essence of metal and these songs are all about the stuff of life from which we all have sprung. There are also probably some songs about corpse-fucking too, I didn’t read the lyrics.

Oh boy. First of all, the creepy/pedo link is (unfortunately) a false one (unfortunately, because wouldn't it be great if we could just, you know, tell). Pedophiles come from all walks of life and exhibit the whole range of personality traits. You can no more discern a pedophile from a "gut feeling" than you can intuitively recognise someone who leaves the top off the toothpaste every morning. Yeah, there's the "creepiness" thing, but the best we can say is that pedophilia might possibly be one aspect of said creepiness once in a while, although never necessarily so. In other words, it's a next to useless gauge.

The answer? Other than for infants, obv: education. The advice above about establishing rules and boundaries for the adults is essential, but as kids get older, it's important to teach them how to recognise a threat. And I don't mean "Stranger Danger", which distracts and deflects their attention from the very people most likely to abuse them (family, friends, neighbours).

One side issue. Someone upthread (Banana Nutrament, I think) mentions that female sexual perpetrators against kids are rare. I'm not sure of the current figures, but I do suspect that this scenario is massively underreported, just like the sexual abuse of males is (almost certainly) generally underreported. When you think of the access women have to young children, you have to think we've barely acknowledged the tip of a very disturbing iceberg. Anyway, I wouldn't dismiss it as a vanishingly rare occurrence, is all (I don't think that was being said, but it could be interpreted that way from BN's comments, I think).

That is a different scenario, of course. It's a one-on-one situation, so rejecting people you find "creepy" out of hand isn't going to be as much of a problem, although it isn't necessarily going to make your child safer. Other than surveillance cameras or eunuchs, both of which are perhaps unreasonable, I can't think off the top of my head of any way to make that situation safer (other than, of course, educating the child and having open lines of communication and setting them up to have independent judgment and a strong toolkit for getting out of unpleasant situations, although this doesn't work for very young children).

You are right, stevie. I am smarter and much more perceptive than most psychologists. I would have been a great one. It ain't brain surgery. (god, why do i want this thread to keep going. forget i said any of that.)

I think he meant "family members or neighbors"

He was typing and feeding a baby at the same time.

― Maria :D (Maria D.), Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:04 PM (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

A WITCH!

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:15 PM (8 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink