Racism in spain

Would be nice if he came to England though.

O RLY?

not all africans are the same, dude.

xxp

xpost w/ stence

When a friend of my flatmate was indulging in some casual Muslim-bashing the other day, he said "I hate Moors". This seemed really strange to me - they have a perfectly good word for Muslims, but here still called them "los Moros"...

I don't really know what to say about this except that Spanish racism is as strange and irrational as everywhere else.

also, it could be totally wrong, but i've gotten the impression while in spain that sub-saharan africans are generally "treated better" (whatever that may mean, i guess) than north africans. could be completely talkin' out my ass there, tho.

I guess what I was trying to get at w the proximity remark - now that we've clarified that apparently Spain saves a unique brand of hate for sub-saharan Africans - was that I'm interested to know why there are fewer Africans in Spain and Italy than the other countries mentioned?

Yeah, so we've pwned you now, Sororah. Aknowledge it! :)

ya started the thread about racism against a sub-saharan african player, then you wondered why racism against africans existed despite spain's "proximity," which to me seemed kind of weird considering spain's relations with its closest african neighbor (ie. not so good - they almost went to war over some rocks just a few years ago).

and my reference to mexico was only related to immigration trends, not how mexicans were treated in this country.

and my point was that immigration trends do not tend to make people less racist. perhaps, they make them more so (this is not an argument against racism, imo).

I guess what I was trying to get at w the proximity remark - now that we've clarified that apparently Spain saves a unique brand of hate for sub-saharan Africans...

check my other posts, i'm not sure how true that is - but i'm not in a position to definitively state so.

- was that I'm interested to know why there are fewer Africans in Spain and Italy than the other countries mentioned?

if africans = people other than sub-saharan africans, this is probably false.

xpost - lovelace also brings an excellent point.

perhaps, they make them more so (this is not an argument against immigration, imo).

heh.

My flatmate told me that if she ever brought home a black or Colombian boy, her parents would cut her head off.

Excuse my throwing these observations out here, in the absence of any actual insight.

but anyway, yeah. seems to me like a lot of this stuff (ie. football racism) is everywhere in europe, tho i could be wrong on that. italy's got that fascist salute guy, now this in spain, i know the uk's got problems, etc.

I was implying that proximity = more africans. that was all. And I wasn't dilineating between sub-saharan and north african.

(this does not excuse "casual" racism, but it may explain why he's getting it and the other black players aren't?)

No, you weren't, but I think other people were saying that look, even if immigration patterns were all about proximity, then Spain is only close to North African countries, not to parts of Africa that have many "black" people like stevem was talking about in the post you were replying to.

but anyway, yeah. seems to me like a lot of this stuff (ie. football racism) is everywhere in europe, tho i could be wrong on that. italy's got that fascist salute guy, now this in spain, i know the uk's got problems, etc.

It's much worse in some countries than others. The UK has had it's problems with it, but it's rare to get overtly racist chanting now, partly for societal reasons, and partly because it's dealt with (more) seriously by footballing authorities here. It's a big problem in a lot of Eastern Europe.

(Warning, not safe for work at all)

Now, this is at the end of the day's event, and comes at the end of the final plenary, in which we've had had Brian Kerr (former Irish team manager) condemn Paolo di Canio, we've had Garth Crooks (English windbag) saying that he'd have refused to play with someone like di Canio. We've had Hristo Stoichkov apologise for racially abusing Marcel Desailly back in 1994.

And then this idiot of a Federation president, and , astonishingly, a UEFA Vice-President, say that 'we mustn't get it out of proportion'. We mustn't make too much of it. And he remembered how in his day, there was always banter between players. I half expected him to say it was all just a bit of fun.

It was stunning in its utter refusal to engage in the issue. I was tempted to start a slow hand-clap but had a niggling worry that it might have lost something in translation, but upon chatting to some german delegates, they were shocked too with the translation they heard.

It was the sort of thing you used to hear from similar figures in the Uk about 20 years ago; the Bigot Ron episode showed such sentiments haven't gone, but the thrust of policy is light-years ahead. Spanish football has a hell of a long way to go.

There was a "mulatto" Brazillian who played for Spain too. I have forgotten his name.

The fine for clubs who allow racist abuse in Spain is, I think, 600 euros, which is evidence that the problem is not considered a problem. I couldn't even get my tooth fixed for that.

And it's not just Spanish football, it's Spanish everything, as shown by Cathy's Reporting Back. No wonder I didn't like it much.

This is the first real wave of immigration into modern Spain, which helps explain the neanderthal reactions.

I wonder if there is an mp3 archive of lengthy OKs at lennyhenry.com.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/sport/story/0,,1713242,00.html

Was just the most bizarre and fucking nasty racism from people who looked like students, I felt so angry I ended up telling the bouncer, who kicked them out.

I have also been based in Catalonia, which doesn't count either, and Alicante.

I think I'm right in saying the largest group of immigrants is from Ecuador. I hope to popularise racism along the lines of "Why don't you fuck off back to your own ancient civilisation, you fucking Inca bastard!*"

* This may be inaccurate.

I agree with Dr Miller in most of his description, but Cathy´s remarks were slightly extreme-they are not the average comments in my 31 years of Spaniardness, let´s say.

However,I was appalled by the degree of ignorance about Spanish history / sociology unfolded in some of the previous emails. Perhaps I would get kicked out of the list if I dare to write something along these lines about US history?

My parents have retired to the parts of Spain you would imagine and have done so in an almost completely stereotypical way (ie their grasp of the languages is the restaurant and bars page of the guide book). I have always been interested in what might be the quite justified prejudice against people who make no attempt to integrate buying up property and causing a boom which prices out the locals both property and restaurantwise.

I didn't notice any particular bad feeling on the ferry from Algeciras to Tangier earlier this year. With regards to Morocco / Spanish tensions, you have to remember that Spain still has two enclaves in Morocco (their Gibraltars if you will).

The dark-skinned Moorish dominion sounds a bit like how history was explained at school during Franco days, too. I am not going to enter into a history lesson here, and however, if I perhaps start a rant about how the French invaded Britain or something I recognize I´d have sounded equally naive.

Abo

olenska, I am quite prepared to believe that my flatmate and her friends are not representative of the general population of Spain. They may also have been being deliberately racist to shock me, or in a joking way that I didn't pick up on.

I'd be very interested if you wished to correct my feeble grasp of Spanish history, btw.

Let´s say that a most reasonable interpretation is that most of the people who were living in la peninsula decided to become Muslims as it was pretty much the way to go if you wanted to prosper after some contact with them, as they were the force controlling the Mediterranean and Iberia was pretty much in tatters since Roman power had vanished.

However, the dark-skinned bit was just cute: As a Spaniard, I just find so laughable if any other Spaniard would say that. We were probably olive-skinned before 711, weren´t we?

It should be pointed out that Spain has its fair share of anti-racist organistations. On the whole it is a very nice place with lovely people and shouldn't be judged on its football managers, supporters, etc. Obvious, I know, but I don't want to sound like a bloody anti.

Here is the Catalan bit with typically show-offy web design:

http://www.sosracisme.org/

I only said modern Spain in case there were any visigoths or phoenecians lurking.

I can't remember exactly why Ceuta and Melilla differ from Gibraltar, but they do. Something to do with legal status, innit.

http://www.manoloeldelbombo.com/

The Spanish are not popular in Ecuador either!

I watched the Zaragoza vs Barca game on the rerun, Sunday morning. It was shocking television.

And I think most people on this thread would agree that racism both in football and in general is far worse in Spain than other parts of Western Europe so I'm not disagreeing with you there.

Olenska, I would be interested in your views on this (I know this isn't where you live though - also HELLO!!) My parents also retired to Spain and live in the area you would imagine that British ex-pats would live, and have done so through many years of going there on holiday and enjoying the area. However, they have made a conscious decision to live outside of the areas populated by British incomers, because they love the Spanish way of life and want to live in *Spain* as opposed to living in a British part of Spain.

They haven't bought property because it's out of their price range. However, I can assure you that they don't spend money in the "british shops" (2 euros for a tin of Campbells soup) and other such silliness. They aren't too fond of the people who moan that you can't get a decent Yorkshire pudding, who are willing to pay 4 euros for a pint of John Smiths, and who get on a bus to Gibraltar every other week so they can go Safeway and buy "real food". Do people like this keep the Costa Del Sol going, or would you want rid of them?

Monkey chanting and the like is only a minority, but casual racism amongst the crowd has often taken the shine off my (admittedly not very shiny) experience of matches at Real Sociedad, for example. I mean things like racial insults of the kind one "shouldn't get out of proportion".

Mind you, the same is true of Tamworth, Bournemouth, Derby, Leicester - everyhwere I've been really.

So nil-nil.

The only thing they moan about not being able to get is smoked haddock! They are not that bad, but consider themselves to be too old to learn a new language which is sad. On the other hand they were always pretty anti-social when they were in the UK so they aren't missing much.

The thing that often concerns me is that an awful lot of people like this are not offical residents. I read a story (may or may not be true) that the Costa Del Sol has about 1.5 million offical residents, but actually has a regular population of 4 million (which may soar to six or seven in the summer). This seems an awful strain on public services (sewers!) if nothing else.
And of course I love going there!!!

Real Zaragoza have been fined 9,000 Euros after some of their fans aimed racist taunts at Barcelona's Samuel Eto'o in Saturday's Primera Liga match.
The fine is significantly larger than those that have normally been handed out to clubs for such incidents.

Haha! I'm not the most picky of eaters, but I've got to say food here in the north is, on the whole, foul. It is very cheap though.

It is frustrating how most expats show off their ignorance about local food, drink, or habits; it can become even offensive because at the end of the day it is just about looking down on the people who have become your neighbours just out of your own choice.

However, what they cannot be blamed for it´s for rampant housing prices and speculation. Local greed must account for in a great deal. I agree, most of us we are not corrupt city council staff, and unfortunately we have to face their shenanigans´consequences.

There must be nice pig-derived products in Leon, and lentils and beans and things.

Alba, when I go back to English everyone says I sound Scottish! But I think they are just being ridiculous. My voice has just gone a bit squeaky, I think.

Cathy, it's to keep the cold out. Soon it will be all salads and Magnums.

I do love Spain and Leon, of course, just not the food or the weather.

Funnily enough, she does sound quite a lot like Cuddles the Monkey.

It´s just funny about food tastes. Average Glasgow fare would make most Spaniards puke. And I would get just as mad with them as Alba did with balkanizating groups in that other thread

It is a pity football supoorters don't abuse black players by doing their Cuddles the Monkey impersonation.

http://www.livescore.com
www.futbol24.com

I love Spain, strangely I've never really heard much racism over there, apart from a few low murmurings at the Depor game we were at in November...

x-post

aha! they did get a couple, nice, that's me 15 quid up on the night, an dthe BBc do a live videprinter of all the scores:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/live_videprinter/default.stm