World Cup Germany — thread 4-4-2

England
France
Germany
Italy

No South Americans - hooray!

Uh, yeah...

The Crown on Brewer St has a few screens - also Callaghan's just around the corner on Glasshouse St.

but then we'd be able to rub it in more annoyingly!

(*non-ironic teh)

I'm now predicting a 0-0 draw, with the shoot-out going to about 14-14 before anyone misses.

I've booked an important meeting for 5 and everyone else is leaving early for the 2nd half. IDIOT MATT DC!

Owen Hargreaves mutating accent is intriguing - I'm sure he sounded much more Canadian a couple of years ago.

'I think Lukas (Podolski) is the sexiest man on the pitch. I would really like to meet him' - Paris Hilton

Stars are blind

actually this is great. but i still seem to want Argentina to win.

...ballack knackered also...

a po po?

i lolled at this too.

Bravo, Germany.

the England team are staying in the nearby city of Essen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essen
Population: 584,295

I never knew Essen was such a large city, it has such a low media profile compared to nearby Dortmund.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dortmund
Population: 587,830

xpost
Germany have won friends in this World Cup, but I'm still choked that Argentina went out. To think we won't see the link-up between Messi and Tevez any more, or Riquelme's vision, Saviola's creative movement, Mascherano's quiet dominance, etc. I've gotten to the point where I loathe penalty shootouts so much I'd almost prefer a coin toss. (I said "almost").

Oh, that's pretty good news for England that the temp goes down with the roof closed. I must have been thinking Greenhouse Effect or something!

I have yet to see Germany play a single game.

Gah! YOU STOLE MY FINAL EIGHT MINUTES!

I thought Argentina's performance against Serbia & Montenegro was one of the best I've ever seen, but I've found myself inexplicably cheering on Germany in their last three games, so I'm happy with the result. Argetina weren't beautiful today. The first half was easily as boring as the Ukraine-Switzerland travesty.

hmm..there were some ok moves, and some good defending by both teams. It ws a pretty good first half and better than swiss-ukr really (as has been discussed there has been too much whinging abt that).

I've always thought Lampard looks like a fat Giggs.

Only if we can impose it retrospectively on Trapattoni (gah, even typing his name makes me retch).

Mike, did you enjoy Gary's "don't you love it when the Italians take an early lead?" I did :)

p.s. Zambrotta, Grosso, Cannavaro, Gattuso - these are what footballers should be. Am I the only one who thinks Cannavaro both looks like and plays like Chris Perry?

Toni reminds me of van Nistelrooy.

Now, when are we going to have a successful Canadian men's team?

FORZA ITALIA!

But yeah, Lovelace bizarrely OTM.

(contrast with Van Basten who I adored as a player, but just can't warm to as a manager at all)

Klinsmann had a reputation as a diver, didn't he?

But yeah, gbx, Italy's win, as good as it was, didn't quite lift me from the depression that grabbed a hold of me after Argentina went out. It's going to take a heroic, brilliant England performance to re-start my World Cup here.

unfortunately he then left Spurs and made himself look quite the cockfarmer again. i've been fairly indifferent ever since.

but it's funny that after all the fuss about Klinsmann living in the States he's managed to get the team to gel well AND play well as if he'd been based in Germany all along.

Then I thought about it, and it dawned on me that Argentina were out.

Still, Odonkor is some player, huh?

Gutted about Argentina. It's a good job Peckerman resigned straight away because he would've been ABSOLUTELY CASTIGATED in the Argentinian press as a result of that debacle. Riquelme is probably the best player I've seen in this tournament, and if Messi had been English he'd be the first name on the teamsheet and no one would've given a shit about Rooney's metatarsal. Highlights the sheer gulf in quality between Argentina and England.

I think any of the teams remaining can beat Brazil.

gulf not so big when it comes to taking penalties tho eh Matt? that first Argentina miss was such a howler.

Unless you're the USA, of course.

The bad man = Uli Stileke in 1982.

I was convinced Ballack was going to blow it - he was knackered, and the story was written. Not to be though.

Argentina were let down by Pekerman - Tevez was astonishingly hardworking and deserved better.

Italy = Argentina-flair

Pub we were in very pro-Germany. Strange, but refreshing. maybe they just really hate the Argentinians.

The altercation at the end seems to have had multiple triggers and culprits, but Bierhoff (!) seems to have stuck his oar in somewhere.

-- ¡Vamos a matar, Dadaismus! (dadaismu...), June 30th, 2006.

YOU ARE A JACKASS!

1. BECKHAM (of course)
2. Zidane (last ever kick in professional football. He's bound to win or lose the World Cup with it)
3. Ronaldo (obviously)
4. Rooney (Andy Johnson would've taken a better penalty. Damn your quick-healing metatarsal)
5. Cristiano Ronaldo (the tears will drown Gelsenkirchen)
6. Totti (I was going to say Toni, but this is an added kick in the teeth in that everyone seems to hate him in the first place)
7. Lampard (first-choice penalty taker, into row Z)
8. Klose (following hattrick against Italy, narrowly misses out on Ronaldo's record)
9. Ronaldinho (ridiculous attempted chip over Buffon goes wide)
10. Theo Walcott (third touch of the ball despite being on for 20mins in the semis after Crouch injured and Rooney sent off. Hits the right corner flag. Entire camera crew from Arsene Wenger's World Cup Wind-Ups appear. Sven shakes his fist, shouting "you said he was ready!" Wenger replies "Ha! You got merked!")

man, the more i think about it, the more bummed i am about argentina.
it only seems to have gotten worse over the evening too ;_; ... i don't know if going out tonight is going to help or not. and i know that at a party tomorrow there's an england fan who's going to lay into me about argentina being out. and that's going to hurt. so i'm going to punch him. esp if england win. maybe i will also say: eff you i'm cheering for brazil.

I'm one of those rare England fans who loves Argentina, so as well as punching the Limey, make sure you call the Falklands the Malvinas and get your retaliation in first!

Me, I'm heading for Library Square (Vancouver) in the morning to watch England-Portugal, and then Commercial Drive for Brazil-France. Should be a good day, even if England don't win, which I've been resigned to since they began the group stage. Hell, it's Canada Day, and the sun is out, and the World Cup is going from simmer to boil!

(And I'm inexplicably using way too many exclamation points lately.)

Although England did stick three past them in Switzerland last autumn, no?

Brazil have had a free ride to the QFs, hopefully it'll be all over for them tonight. GO FRANCE!

Eng, apart from Rooney showing some fight, Owen H's good work and Gerrard's odd goal, haven't been capable of anything.

And Ashley Cole's rapidly improving play. And Joe Cole's excellent goal. And Beckham's set pieces. And Lennon's cameos. I'd be the last to say England were playing well, but this could turn into "what have the Romans ever done for us...?"

England had never before appeared in a World Cup semifinal, and, almost by sudden instinct, the wise men and soothsayers of football stopped predicting and started holding their breath. One columnist reported fancifully that a strange, flickering blue light hung over the whole country, a kind of television halo, and certainly those who had grumbled the loudest about having to sacrifice some of their favorite television serials for the lavish coverage of the World Cup had by now stopped caring whether or not the serials ever came back. I had watched a fair proportion of the games on television, and not only was the treatment technically beyond reproach but the strange tampering with the sequence of time that television is so easily able to indulge in had become almost part of our expectation. We had grown used not simply to seeing a goal scored but to seeing it over again almost immediately, then possibly a third time, in slow motion, to say nothing of being able to watch it later the same evening, and even the following day. The B.B.C. and Independent Television sportscasters had grown into family friends, as familiar as mailmen. And yet nothing quite equalled the experience of the games themselves, even though the goals were over in a flash, and did not immediately and mysteriously repeat themselves.

As I travelled out to Wembley on the Underground for the semifinal, faces seemed grimmer than usual. The touts on the way to the ground were hoarse by this time, the variety of ribboned rosettes had dwindled, and I found myself waving aside programs and surveys, for I now knew all the names by heart and had grown as adept as any of the announcers at identifying the Portuguese. The scandal of the Argentine match was still very much in the air, however, and we wanted above all some kind of restitution—some omen that might make the inconceivable possible. So far, England had leaned heavily on its almost impenetrable defense, and on Gordon Banks, its brilliant goalkeeper, but defense, we knew, would never win against a team as mercurial as the Portuguese, and especially against an opportunist of Eusebio’s calibre. Wembley under the lights seemed as miraculous a setting as we could wish for, and when the teams walked out, the national chant (a staccato sequence of claps followed by a cry of “Eng-land!,” which had first been borrowed from the Brazilians as a battle cry during the World Cup in Chile) had never been so urgent, never so hopeful. If England were to win against a team as dedicated and pure as the Portuguese, the combination of morale and “home advantage” Would obviously make it the favorite for the Cup.

The game itself proved to be the turning point of the whole competition. After the ugly incidents, the squabbles, and even the tedium of simply getting the games played out, the game with Portugal seemed a kind of unveiling, a revelation of all that was best in football, a game that must have converted even chess addicts, and that certainly won over clusters of people who had previously done little more than unwillingly suspend their disbelief. From the beginning, both teams seemed to have sworn solemn vows to demonstrate that the kind of fouling that had marred the quarterfinals had absolutely nothing to do with football at its best. The referee, in fact, scarcely had to use his whistle at all, and the spectacle of players helping their opponents up after a fall or patting one another’s backs in appreciation after a particularly brilliant piece of play sent the crowd into a roar. When Charlton scored for England after thirty minutes, the enthusiastic embraces of his teammates were punctuated with Portuguese handshakes, and the shouts that came from the crowd were of appreciation rather than partisanship. More than that, what we saw was a transformed England team, playing not the canny, covering, defensive game of its earlier, economical wins but a swift and deadly attacking game, a game it might have learned overnight from the Portuguese; a fluent, fast, and diagrammatic football, with long, clean passes that seemed always to find their man, the kind of game that would turn the closest of goal-line saves into a sudden spurt of attack down one of the wings; a game that scarcely any of us felt we could look away from long enough to make even the briefest of jottings in our notebooks. My Portuguese neighbor might have been a dedicated English supporter, so vociferously appreciative was he of the spectacle, while we, in our turn, took only delight in the graceful subtleties of Eusebio and José Torres. Bobby Charlton scored again for England with only ten minutes left—a rocketing shot that took him well clear of the ground, and did much the same for the crowd. Even then, Portugal seemed to be only beginning. England handled the ball in the penalty area, and from the consequent penalty kick Eusebio scored superbly for Portugal, sending the goalkeeper diving one way, with a wriggle of his body, and the ball the other. It was Eusebio’s eighth goal of the championship, and it set him up without question for the trophy awarded to the leading scorer. The end was trauma—England ahead two goals to one, and Antonio Simöes poised with the ball, fated, we felt, to score, until little Stiles materialized from nowhere and stole the ball and, we felt, the game. The final whistle had never seemed more of a relief, more of a sibilantly emphatic piece of punctuation. All twenty-two players were as eager to thank their opponents as to embrace one another, to trade shirts, to bask in the ovation of the moment. Eusebio wept as he left the field, and it was only as we were trailing out of the stadium, still dazed by football, that it began to dawn on us that England was in the final.

The following day, the press forgot itself in lyrical ecstasies. The front pages all showed us Eusebio either in tears or embracing Bobby Charlton. The economic crisis had retreated to page 3, and nobody seemed to have the time to see Mr. Wilson off to Washington, or even to notice that he had gone, so intent were we on the breathless possibilities ahead. Alf Ramsey pronounced the result England’s greatest victory since he had become manager, and Tass, the Russian news agency, in an uncharacteristic burst of poetic fervor, declared, “The World Cup semifinal between England and Portugal was like a spring of clear water breaking through the murky wave. It was beautiful, correct football.” The Portuguese officials were no less generous in their praise, and, however inglorious the Argentinian game seemed in retrospect, the bad taste it left had been more than obliterated.

As Tim H and I were just saying on the field telephone, this means a Ger-Eng final, which the US joins in on our side early in the second half, Arena chucking his entire squad on. With tanks and stuff.

(he says as they nearly score)

England are all bunched up in the middle of the park - AGAIN - with Rooney wandering lost in a lonely wilderness of green. I give up.

Portugal dive again!

I will say, though, that the Portuguese diving is hilarious and embarassing.

"England has never won a WC match on penalties, Portugal has never gone on to PKs at a WC match"

UNCHARTED TERRITORY

1. Is Gerrard married?

(Lampard incapable of scoring any goal in this WC)

Yes, but they didn't have Rooney or Beckham.

The cunt of a referee gave us fuck all.

england needed matty taylor today - ice cool, scored 2 vital pens to keep pompey in the premier league

4 years time matty taylor and gary o'neil will be at the world cup for england

US commentators already jumping in with "Rooney cost them the game. All credit to the other 10 players on the field, who had to live with his childish mistake."

ronaldo if he stays at man ure will get immense verbal abuse at away matches

Rooney is made of porkchop and bile.

ballstomp and beckham crying are the funny parts.

Perhaps not "should", perhaps "would not be surprised if". We were so shocked we can't quite remember.

Bye Sven! (phew, shut of him at last)

GO GERMANY!

x-post.
Yeah, Ronaldo will be hounded out fer sure.

ARGH THIS IS REALLY FUNNY BUT I CANNOT LAUGH

xposts

I don't rilly think McLaren will be entirely Sven Mk 2, Kerr, but I do think he'll be the next in a long line of managers more interested in appeasing the FA than creating a winning team.

If rooney wasnt sent off for ball stamping then y'know he still should have. It was a stupid thing to do. I don't believe it was accidental at all.
Anyway lets wait and see what the refs report has to say on that one.
If he wasnt sent off for that then his ban might be increased, so its better for him if that is the reason he was red carded.

Despite everything, England were magnificent. Rubbish all World Cup, and suddenly it takes a team with ten men, no David Beckham, no Michael Owen and no Wayne Rooney to suddenly ACTUALLY PLAY! The two most maligned members of the squad, Peter Crouch and Owen Hargreaves, were fantastic. Especially Hargreaves, covering every blade of grass like Gazza and Maradona combined. Going round two defenders, realising there's no Joe Cole to pass to, and continuing his run to play that role himself was astonishing. Aaron Lennon after just six or seven minutes looked more dangerous than an entire tournament's worth of Beckham, and Peter Crouch showed the sort of dedication upfront we'd been lacking all summer.

No Theo Walcott, at all, even as a last throw of the dice. That speaks volumes. Sven picked him as a PR stunt to distract from Rooney's injury and keep people excited. Jermaine Defoe would have been trusted to come on, and might have made a difference. Although I expected Ian Wright to take Sven to pieces FAR MORE at the end... he was, strangely reserved?

And Matt and aldo right on the euros.

I blame Sven. 4 strikers in the squad was nuts. Starting Rooney up front on his own today was nuts, keeping it like that after half time when it was obvious he wasn't getting the support he needed and couldn't get the ball because he always had two men on him and was getting frustrated was nuts.

Rooney will get off fairly lightly for his red card I think, considerably more so than Beckham in 98. All the venom will be heaped on Sven. Probaby deservedly so.

I think Wrighty was quiet because, for all his faults, HE HURT TOO.

Naomi knew it too, said it as saw as she looked at Lampard.

Um, does anybody know anywhere I can get a live webcast of France/Brazil? Here in America they are showing it on ESPN, which is a PAY CABLE channel, which I don't have. :(

amirite?

(ok, sorry, carry on)

There were LOADS of people watching the Germany-Argentina match in the student lounge here in Montana, which was a pleasant surprise. And it wasn't just the int'l students, either. The question is: do you think that, despite the States' early exit, this World Cup will see Americans actually taking an interest in football? Does the world even want America to like football? Why did the MLS ever think it was a good idea to let teams name themselves shit like Real Salt Lake City or the New York Red Bulls? Why can't teams just have a bit of class and stick with stuff like Toronto F.C.?

xp i was telling my friend the other day that that dude looked like flea!

also xpost I've noticed the increased American viewership, um, is this the first time it's been simulcast on network tv or have I just not really been paying attention?

What do you say to an 8 year old who just can't understand that this is what happens if you're an England fan?

PS - Ronaldo is a cunt. This will just hasten his exit to Real Madrid, which was already well on the cards.

xxpost.

Blame Dieter Mateschitz and Red Bull GmbH, who also renamed Austria Salzburg "Red Bull Salzburg." And now they seem to have driven out Djorkaeff, the only watchable player on the sad pile of shit that I used to love.

totally deserved.

-- Dom Passantino (juror...) (webmail), July 1st, 2006 8:03 PM.

As a neutral?

I am watching this with the Pinefox and PJM. Pinefox just said "Mojo".

IT'S LIKE A BALL ON A STRING

HOW MANY WIZARDS ARE ON THE FIELD TONIGHT

xp what's with his face?

Tyldesley appears to be receiving one himself. "Oh what a game. Oh, don't stop now"

It may look as tho Ronaldho and Ronaldo tried to eat him but apparently it was due to a car accident when a child.

So - an all European cast for the semis. Dadaismus was half-right. I don't really mind who wins it now. I like France. I like Germany. I like Italy when they go for it, but not when they're negative. Portugal... actually they can fuck right off, diving, cheating bastards.

Indeed, but Lampard was so wretched it was gobsmacking, especially after the season he's just had (20+ goals).

Who's going to be there in 4 years time? Rooney, Defoe, Ashton, Lennon, Walcott, Crouch, Lampard, Cole and Cole, Gerrard, Terry, Hargreaves, Carrick, Downing, Matty Taylor, Robinson? Who'll be out, Beckham, Campbell, Neville, Ferdinand?

And I felt pretty much done with football forever after that, or done with this level of emotional investment in England at least. Agree with Michael - would rather England had lost 4-0 and been outclassed rather than sit through 140 minutes or so of this nonsense again.

But Zidane, Ribery, Henry and co. HAVE cheered me up a bit.

PS - is it too much to ask for England to take part in a shooout to the RIGHT of the cameras again sometime, like they did when they last won one in '96 against Spain? i ask not out of irrational, superstitious paranoia but purely in the interests of statistical harmonisation, you understand.

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and am not sure how best to proceed.

: (

unimpressed by Portugal and France really should win that semi.

"I think there's every chance that Wayne Rooney could go back to the Manchester United training ground and stick one on Ronaldo because he hasn't helped him there."

xpost

?

I'm sorry for all your pain but I have to admit that I was delighted with the outcome of that match. Infact, I felt more joy at seeing England lose than I felt sadness when Sweden lost against the Germans.

Just out of curiousity, who do the English have the biggest rivalry with, the Argies or the Germans?

"terribly sorry old chap, didn't see you there!"

Portugal.

msg to FA: give Mclaren a go and then after England fail to progress beyond the group stage at Euro 2008 get on your knees and beg O'Neill to take the job.

still seems remarkable that Portugal knock out the same teams they knocked out two years ago.

France 1 Brazil 0

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSS!
YES YES YES YES YES YES!
YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS!

Bye bye Brazil, shittest team bar Saudi Arabia in the World Cup. Fuck off.

GER-FRA final, Italy and Portugal ain't anything.

And Por 2-2 Eng two years ago also coincided with a shock defeat for Venus Williams at Wimbledon (I was watching the bizarro tiebreak when Owen scored), just like today.

The England exit was wrapped inside an extraordinary two-TV day featuring Agassi's farewell and Murray's flawless dismantling of Roddick and climaxing with the magnificent French win. Hard to feel down, really.

A great day. And not much of a "shock".

Though the French win was great... Best game so far.

x-post

France, though, has pulled off a beautiful, utterly convincing (and for me unexpected) win.

What did Murray say about the English team?

Ribery:Starks::Zidane:Ewing?

I need help. I am going to be in NYC starting on Monday and need some choice spots to watch GER-ITA and FRA-POR, and then the final. Atmospheric preference is for delirium and lots of emotional investment.

ALLEZ, ALLEZ ALLEZ ALLEZ!

He was quoted as saying his favourites for the World Cup were "anyone but England", which is fair enough. He's since recanted.

Good point. Was Spain 96 the last one, or just the only one (in a proper match)? Germany 90 - left, Germany 96 - left, Argentina 98 - left, Portugal 04 - left. Add in Man Utd as well (for me, if no one else): off the top of my head Arsenal FA Cup final 05, Southampton FA Cup 92, and some Russian team in the UEFA cup in 92, and I just take it for granted that my team will lose any penalty shoot out.

has Shearer been misquoted?

Nope, that's what he said, to a large cheer from the pub I was in.

Infact, I felt more joy at seeing England lose than I felt sadness when Sweden lost against the Germans.

That's a bit twisted, seeing as you're Swedish. That's like Man City supporters who are far more interested in seeing United lose than City win. Except that there's no rivalry whatsoever between Sweden and England. So it's like a Man City supporter being more interested in seeing West Ham lose than City win.

Just out of curiousity, who do the English have the biggest rivalry with, the Argies or the Germans?

I think there's more lingering resentment towards Argentina, mostly for the injustice of the Hand of God goal, but also partly the snideness of Simeone for the Beckham sending off. Whereas with Germany it was more frustration that they kept ruining our big moments by beating us on penalties. The 5-1 thrashing we gave them in 2001 was competely cathartic for me and I don't have any special feeling towards Germany any more (same as the 4-1 against Holland got rid of their status as one of our bogey teams). After yesterday and 2004 (and even 2000 as well) I would have to put Portugal top of the list of teams I'd like England to beat.

Magnanimous-yet-pointless gesture. Twat.

"i'm going to get you sent off"

according to rooney

I still don't get the guesture of resigning an international captaincy anyway. You get *offered* the captaincy. You can't resign from something you don't have any automatic right to, can you?

(I realise club captaincy is different)

It´s true, he did use the word "mojo", as in "he's lost/found his mojo".

PF's love of "top quality punditry" is well-documented, but who knew that he actually stands up to watch it? Really close to the telly?

At one point I was outside talking to Pam when PF's voice came floating out, saying, "That's Brazil in a nutshell, that is". I don't know whether it was good or bad.

PJM Watch:

That's all the third world teams knocked out, so whoever wins now, WE ARE ALL WINNERS*.

* Except one or two stragglers who pop in occasionally.

I think England got just deserts for thinking they were so much more important than Portugal that they could go round trying to poach their coach.

Collective shrug of shoulders followed by a murmur of agreement more like.

I doubt McClaren would've had the bottle to strip Beckham of the captaincy, especially after years of working with him for England. Who's his replacement, then? Gary Neville's a bit short-term, Owen won't play for a year - my heart says Stevie my head says John Terry.

Ricardo is really incredible at penalties, isn't he? If Portugal draw every game 0-0 after extra time they're going to win the World Cup.

As it happens, IT IS WIDE OPEN! No one looks uber-convincing, except maybe the Germans. I sort of want France to win now - how is that, at the age of 63, the best player at this tournament is now... Zinedine Zidane! But this tournament really is all about the last hurrah of the experienced old pros, isn't it? Ronaldo, Figo, Zidane, even Raul have all been playing better than they have for years.

On a completely tangential note, I was in a pub and I couldn't hear the commentators/pundits too well. What was going on at half-time that had Ian Wright looking so sulky and shifting away from his fellow pundits? Is it still bitterness because Sven's foreign and didn't pick his son? I really thought he was going to actually move his chair away at one point.

That's been fairly emphatically proven to be bollocks, especially given the performance of England's minor players (Lennon, Hargreaves, Crouch) and the inability of the big names to successfully fit into any kind of system. The first thing McClaren needs to do is sort out the balance of the team and if that entails dropping Champions League Heroes then fine.

xxpost.

As for this: If McLaren dropped him as captain, there'd be a national outcry, and say that's only marginally less wide of the mark than claiming that Graham Taylor would be the most popular choice as next England manager.

(I think the smaller red-topped version of the press would make it a national outcry)

There would have been no outcry were it given to someone else (although you can conceive of the handover being done in such an unsettling way as to attract criticism, which is one of the many reasons why what Beckham's done does not make him a "twat").

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylMqeyMgsxs&search=ronaldo%20headbutt

If the Spurs youngster had started the tournament instead of a mediocre David Beckham, who knows how far we might have gone?

Roo clearly stamped on the Chelsea man

However, it ended just like 1990 and 1998 - in spot-kick defeat.

And this time the Three Lions do not even have the consolation that they played well.

So that's a spotter's guide to received wisdom for this match.

But think about the way Sweden lost. I mean, they conceded two goals in the first 12 minutes and were outplayed for the rest of the game. There really was no need to be heartbroken about that, unlike when we lost on penalties against the Dutch in Euro 2004 where we were the better team, or loosing against Senegal in overtime in the 2002 World Cup.

People have a silly dislike for many teams which their countries have no rivalry with(look at all the Brazil hate in the first World Cup thread). Being a foreigner living in England it's so easy to start disliking the English team.

I think Beckham's gesture would be empty except that I suspect Mclaren would be eager for him to remain captain so as not to 'rock the boat'. Naturally he'd be damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Beckham has had a good World Cup personally as a player and I believe he has done a decent job as captain tho perhaps he does, like Eriksson, lack real passion when it comes to helping team-mates come to terms with things like, yep, scoring penalties seeing as not even he could do that anymore. i don't know how important all that stuff really is. and i'm not sure if Gerrard would really be a major improvement as new captain but I guess I would give it to him, or Terry.

Ronaldo does wink at someone but who gives a shit when Rooney's stamp deserved a red card anyway which I think it did.

Gerrad and Lampard have world-class negative hype to bottle ratios. Big players, world class players, do the business when it really counts. Zidane springs to mind here. These players were fucking appalling. truly abysmal. Why didn't Sven take Lampard off instead of Cole? Because Frank is the second best player in the world, whilst l'il Joe is just a squad man?

The team from the best league in the world fails again! What stunning excuse can we dredge up this time to deflect attention away from their being something rotten in the state of our football?

Italy are the only team left who I thought COULD win, so I will stick with them.

I don't see anything wrong with what Shearer said. It was an observation, one which pretty much anyone around me in the pub and further afield concurred with.

Also also, who doesn´t try to wind Rooney up? You don't need to be his teammate to know he's liable to fly off the handle at any provocation.

It also appears to be his way of deling with "pressure".

Rooney was sent off only for the push, since the referee didn't react towards him at all until that moment. It should have been a yellow. I think the kick was accidental. Please can we have the day back when referees just told people to shake hands and get on with it?

England, considering their multitude of talents, were terrible. A shame. Beckham's resignation is justified and dignified.

not true. according to sven who spoke with the referee it was for the stamp.

Something is rotten in Italian football and they're in the semi-finals. Lots of good players perform badly in big games, Zidane is hardly a shining example in this having been absolutely shit in France's first 3 games.

For once isn't the manager actually a proper part of the problem? I mean, other years England lost on penalties they actually looked a half decent side prior to that. England in this World Cup were honestly the worst I can remember since Graham Taylor's era. I don't know if I'm alone in thinking this.

These players do produce fairly regularly at club level, but also in the case of Lampard and Gerrard, they've played a huge number of games.

Could another big problem for England be the length of their season?

Or are Lampard and Gerrard actually shit? I don't think so, perhaps overrated but at this point the "English players are overly hyped" argument is overly hyped.

A friend has written somewhere else:

Yeah, definitely worst England World Cup finals performance since 1982; worse than that in fact, since England actually played some decent opposition in Spain.

And Eriksson was clueless in this World Cup, but I can't help thinking that he - with his absurd salary, his perpetual indulgence of the Corporate Approved Stars, the cultural cringe from which he initially benefited (ooh look, a foreign bloke in glasses, he must be really smart!) - is merely a symptom of England football's malaise not its cause.

The Eriksson era may come to be seen as symbolising the inability of English football to think rationally, its rapacious commercial short-termism, and its shallow bombast. All those Believe bars, all that flag-waving (and more importantly flag selling), all that blanket coverage - and for that, a team barely worth getting worked up about when they lose.

The emperor never had any clothes.

beckham correct to stand down. i think he should retire from international football altogether (and i think that he will do so *during* the next qualifying campaign) - he can still do well in the spanish league, but england badly need some pace on that right hand side, and he seems to be nullified far too easily in big international games. i'm quite fond of the guy, he was a good captain for the first couple of years after his appointment, but more natural leaders have emerged, and he doesn't have the legs to dominate matches anymore. time to give gerrard the captaincy, and lennon the right-wing berth.

gerrard is a terrific player, who has underperformed for england. give him the captaincy as a challenge to raise his game. terry delivers dogged, uninspiring performances for england, and would make a dogged, uninspiring captain.

stevie is one of few england players who are actually among the best in their position in the world, imo. robinson is a mediocre goalie, who actually thought he was going to make some saves in the shoot-out? g. neville is fading a la beckham, wingers with pace can do him easily: unfortunately there's no a.lennon/swp-style ready-made replacement for the right-back position, he's still the best you have, and the likes of glen johnson haven't really stepped up. terry looks off the pace, and a lot of the last ditch heroic stuff he does is to atone for prior cock-ups. ferdinand launches too many aimless long balls that find no-one. success story joe cole had one good game out of five, lampard doesn't contribute much beyond goals, when goals are absent he's mediocre. i'd say only hargreaves and lennon enhanced their reputations. maybe ashley cole too, as the tournament progressed.

But Sven had tried to address this by moving the FA cup back and having a decent break between the competitions.

What concerns me is how much input McLaren had in the squad selection, tactics etc as it makes you question his judgment if he was complicit in the four strikers/Walcott debacle.

Please can this be the title of the debut long-player from Dot-To-Dot?

Maybe we've been wrong all along - the assumption was that it was a lack of a decent holding midfielder that had been England's problem. After watching so many of the best teams in this World Cup, what we're missing is a real playmaker, and Gerrard and Lampard aint it.

premiership clubs' record in recent champions leagues is decent enough though, isn't it? so i'm not sure that's the real issue - also let's remember that the premiership is home to some of the best players of the tournament (essien, fabregas, robben etc) - just none of them are english.

We haven't got a Riquelme figure, a Ballack or indeed someone who's job is to just play short easy passes and make things happen that way.

Lampard I'll give you but come on, I know I'm a biased Liverpool fan here but there's not a chance on earth I would question Stevie's bottle, Champions league final, who pulled us up by the bootstraps? FA cup final - who won it almost single-handedly? Stevie (and yes that was after having a stinker of a first half in both,especially the cup final)

But I would agree that he's not the playmaker some people want him to be, he's a rampager, he's a tireless runner, but he's not a schemer, not a player of wonderballs. He's pretty much old-school.

I'm not really seeing the connection between the English league being fucked and this English team though, surely using a few games of international football to judge the operation of a league is a pretty flawed approach.

ronan also otm, as said before, several players who built their rep in the premiership have enhanced theirs, just no-one from the england team. also, beckham failed to produce his club form at the tournament, same as the premiership-based guys, so why is it a premiership issue?

Says a lot for the rest of the team on the pitch that they had to bring Jamie on just to take one.

Anyway the reason I disagree so strongly with the above is that other teams can do well with no league or a league that's not even professional, they can overachieve.

There's probably a translation of "our country never complains" or "only in IRELAND/ENGLAND" for every language in the world.

Anyway.... Viva the World Cup. Who do you fancy now? Germany v Italy is tricky to call - Italy look great defensively and in typical Italian fashion are growing into the tournament, Germany have been the surprise package of the World Cup - some of their attacking play has been brilliant. I could see this one going to penalties. In fact I could see this one being a repeat of the Italia 90 semi, but with Germany cast in the role of Italy (as host nation). If that makes sense. France v Portugal: France look better, Portugal have trouble scoring, I see France winning 1-0 in a very bad-tempered game.

Anyone else feel the second phase has been kind of disappointing? So few goals and so few games where the momentum shifted from one team to the other.

So, slagging off the Premiership is an attempt to try and think about what that culture is. What I'm trying to say isn't related to the Premiership as a collection of clubs but as that culture. It's the pinnacle of a system that our players grow up in, so the fact that many of its players come from abroad is neither here nor there. It's not what it does to their games (probably little) but what it does to our players' games and more importantly, their perceptions.

They believe the hype. They play well each week in a league which is the epitome of marketed bombast, paid salaries that make them believe it and written and talked about weekly as if they were demi-gods. As a French guy put it to me in germany - you have pop stars, we have a team.

This group have been told that they are something, but they've been badly managed. And why? Who chose him? The FA under pressure to 'modernise' by Arsenal's vice-chairman. Why was he still in his post and ultimately too expensive to sack? Because of the actions of Chelsea forced the FAs hand back in 2003. They're also the reason why we don't have a national training set-up, and why we had to go and appoint a manager before the world cup.

You have the ideology of the premiership which reinforces the idea that somehow, England have some deserving role at the top table, which international results simply don't bear it out. The acme of this is the idea that this was a squad with serious aspirations. They simply didn't play like a team which believed this, or if they did, they believed it just too much. As has been commented before, we play with such a burden of hope and expectation that isn't simply hope, but bombast. The fear of losing eventually trumps the squad, until they have to play by virtue of circumstance, such as injuries and sendings off.

But all the while, the press, the commentators, the punditocracy, all feast and gorge on the myth of the premiership. It means they can praise all the players and sympathise, but can't have it both ways. Either we're world beaters, in which, they bottled it, or they're good players who buckled, so cut the bombast.

HELLO YOU'RE ENGLISH.

go thru a serious currency devaluation and MAYBE your team will be good.

(yes i know i'm american and we've no right to talk - but wait 10 years!!!!)

JUST YOU WAIT.

basketball players != soccer players (Peter Crouch aside). 6'9" dudes might be good as keeps or fullbacks, but there's little chance dwade would ever be lured into playing soccer.

football, on the other hand, definitely has overlap. can you imagine if all of our running backs were magically transformed into midfielders??

another reason the US MIGHT have a chance at some dominance (down the road): there's a lot of us, and we fucking love winning. at some point there will be at least 11 US citizens that are capable of going toe to toe with the best in the world. odds in our favor, etc.

i'm just crossing my fingers for a Minneapolis F.C.

Rooney's reported threat to split C. Ronaldo in half (which I read on the back of someone's newspaper) seems to me to be a fitting climax to the whole sorry adventure.

Semi-final plans? I suppose I could rouse my cuddly toy barmy army again.

http://blogdebola.blig.ig.com.br/imagens/rooney_ronaldo.jpg

5 out of 6 shootouts lost between 1990 and 2006 (not including a shootout lost against Belgium in a warm-up tournament in Morocco prior to World Cup '98). The Dutch have lost 4 out of 5 in that time. Has any other team been involved in more than 3 within that period? it's an appalling record that it's hard to see being balanced out more in future.

except he scored the penalty initially (and Ricardo seemed ready for that one too).

Its funny how Rooney has been given a nice free pass -- you know it ws Sven that left him isolated and frustrated, like he needs an excuse (and it surely ws a red, we know WC refs will have less tolerance).

But yeah, after all the hype, this tournament finds ppl out. Holland (like i think Kilian ws saying in the other thread) weren't as unified as ppl might've thought. Spain were, again, flat when it came down to it. Both played some good stuff tho'. Argentina are the one country who could feel the coach really did 'em wrong and Ivory Coast played like a quarter-final team (sure, they were required to play like that from the start, but whether they were to play the likes of Paraguay or Argentina you got the feeling they were more of a team).

Penalties are in one sense a 'lottery' but when a team just can't win one...The big softie Ronaldo kissed the ball before sinking Eng, while Gerrard pretty much blasted it in the middle. xxp

But surely England SHOULD be thinking in this manner, the amount of support for football in their main league is enough for this attitude to be the right one. So maybe "deserve" is not the right approach, but as one of the biggest leagues they must approach tournaments expecting to achieve. I mean what are they supposed to think "ah we're only England, it's not going to happen for us but fuck it we'll have a laugh"

As I said before, I think Sven is mostly to blame for all of the things you say about the squad.

I don't believe France's team is necessarily way better than England's would be playing to their full potential.

People blame "hype" for about a hundred different declines, whether you're talking about music, sport, films, whatever.

The fear of losing eventually trumps the squad, until they have to play by virtue of circumstance, such as injuries and sendings off.

This I agree with to a point, but again this was far worse under Sven (in this tournament) than under any other manager in my opinion. English club sides have shown they can play without fear in Europe in the last few years.

x-post in fairness to Carragher he had scored two for Liverpool in shoot outs in the past!

I wonder whether in Spain there are people going 'ha ha, told you England would crumble'.

Look at Murray at Wimbledon even. He didn't roar with satisfaction on beating Roddick, he seemed more shocked and bewildered than anybody else there, making me think it was more a case of Roddick losing it than Murray winning it. This may be being a bit harsh on Murray tho who clearly played good tennis and deserved to win.

Apparently Wayne Rooney has called Cristiano Ronaldo a "pretty boy", as part of his war dance. I wonder what Ronaldo's beautiful pop star sister has to say about all this.

I don't think they will be saying that in Spain, no. But they will probably be quite pleased, what with Gibraltar and all that.

PS: Murray where in Spain?

Beckham, Ferdinand, both Coles, Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney - these guys are celebrities first, footballers second. I really, really don't care if we win or lose, provided we play with skill, intelligence and like MEN. These fucking pansies had no appetite for a match against a very poor Portugal side, and didn't have the intelligence to do anything about it when it was going wrong. And what's going on with all the WAGs - get them out of the way and conecentrate on the football.

Beckham - hopefully the end now. Sod the free kicks, just bring in Lennon as first choice. He can beat a defender, gets in the box and has guts.

Rooney - you brainless TWAT! I can't bring myself to say any more.

Joe Cole - cut out the stepovers and stop falling on your arse.

Oh I can't be bothered...

Nothing will change - the cult of empty celebrity is with us to stay. And the game is fucked by the money. It's not really the players at fault - throw £100K a week at any moron and he'll eventually think he's worth it. Market forces blah, blah...
For big, big money, should come big, big responsibility and expectation. Anyone can miss a penalty - but I want to see players who can hit a hard shot on target. We should demand that. I want to see players who don't cheat, who don't gob off to the officials, who respect opponents, who play hard but fair, who can play the game with intelligent and tactical nous, who train relentlessly to improve their game, who don't expect that playing for England is their right, who put something back into the game. PLAYERS WHO CARE. MEN WHO CARE.

But it's essential that we only pick players who are on form (Lampard didn't deserve to start after his first two games, Beckham also), that we have a clear formation, with alternatives depending on match situation, and WE ONLY PICK PLAYERS WHO HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO PLAY AT THIS LEVEL. And can take the responsibility.

I'd give captaincy to Terry (not as a CFC supporter), but because I think he would appreciate what it means and what it entails. Gerrard is still important, but he is such a scowling, sour-faced misery that I can't bear the thought of him representing and leading us. I wnat to see players like Ledley King, Hargreaves, Crouch, Lennon, Reo-Coker maybe, become important. I want us to cast the net wider and not settle for yet another casual performance from Ferdinand, yet another 30 mins of promise but f-all else from J.Cole, more ineptitude in front of goal from Lampard. Perform or get out. Everyone's entitled to a bad game, but not 3 in a row.

To football's officals - cut the cheating out now, cut the abuse of officials out. DO IT NOW. It can be done within weeks, everyone knows how.

For all of Sven's faults (or the players and their abilities to 'simply' dig deep and carve out the ugliest victory in a penalty shoot-out) they've managed to qualify for the last 3 tournaments, and managed to reach the last 8. You'd think, like Spain, there is something more there (10 other teams have that, too) and maybe some fine-tuning is required to advance further in what is, after all, a cup competition.

Whether Mclaren is the one capable of doing the fine-tuning that involves taking a tough decision and dropping someone when required is another matter. xp

Let's hope the glorious coming era of McClaren-Neville can put it into practice.

Ballack is probably getting about 3 tropical islands a week to join Chelsea and he's been one of the best in the tournament so far.

Under Sven, as hapless as they have often looked and weird as many of his decisions have been, England have been at their most consistent, qualifying for every tournament and reach the quarter-finals each time. How, from any historical perspective, can this be considered a huge disappointment, especially when compared with the 1970s or early 90s? England have reached their natural level: on what grounds should the English genuinely expect to do better than the Germans or the Italians?

Instead of practising penalties, perhaps all England players need intense psycho-therapy from hereon.

I disagree on Ferdinand - thought he had a good World Cup, he always seemed to be in the right place, fucked up considerably less than Terry. He's improved markedly since being dropped in favour of Sol Campbell. Coincidence?

you all act like you wish England were a team with no successful players who battle to qualify and then rejoice at reaching the second phase after scoring one goal.

you act like this because the truth, that England have a very good team, and are almost always in with a chance of winning a major tournament with the players they have, is much harder to take than exaggerating your problems to the point where you think you never could have won it anyway.

C. Ronaldo doesn't have the opportunity to win over english fans again (bar man united supporting ones)

there are man u supporting england fans? when did this happen???

(sorry Jamie ;))

The real shocker was Portugal also sat back and let England do this, Portugal looked reluctant to do anything different and wanted to play the same way England did. It was a glorified Ukraine v Switzeland basically.

It's more simple than that. Too many players were in poor form going into the competition, weren't completely fit, or were played out of position. Plus English players still aren't very good at passing the ball, something that's been a problem for around 50 years. running and tackling still valued above passing and movement (hence the hargreaves love - at least he put in effort, even though he seems technically limited). Lampard isn't a bad or lazy player, he's just playing crap right now. It happens.

And the other problem is that the English media is ludicriously optimistic, which makes everybody think that reaching the last eight is some kind of disaster when it's really all a decent bunch of players lacking in fitness, form and, importantly, any world class Zidane-style players can really hope for.

Lots of interviews about how much it means to them and what an honour it is and what great spirit there is in the camp but no inkling that they have actually worked hard on figuring out how to beat the opposition. A plan, a strategy, some science.

xxxpost

xxpost

I agree with Pete too though I'd suggest that the ludicrous optimism only comes as a result of being a country that has won a World Cup or has a big professional league. The only countries without ludicrous optimisim are the ones who delight at qualification etc, there isn't really a middleground is there?

OTMFM. SVEN MUST GO!

i presume you meant Ukraine here.

How many recent elegant English passers can you think of? Hoddle. Le Tissier.

From the super soaraway scum:

'Ronaldo was in hiding'

What, hiding being 'with his teammates at the Portuguese hotel where they've been for 4 weeks'.

Oh, and we have this. We're a fucking scummy bunch of cunts in England really. The self same paper of record had a guy on %live having a go at 'the cheating continentals'. Rooney is 'wholesome'. I mean, the only good thing about going out of the tournament is that these cunts don't get to take this xenophobic embarrassment any further.

Words can't express how much I despise the whole fucking lot of them. Let's kick the Sun out of football...

xpost - far from being the bestest league in the world, most other countries find it strangely compelling for it's rubbishness. It's like the 'It's a Knockout' of world football, with Andy Gray going on about how the midfield have lumped it, and instead of the laughter at the Blegians falling in the water, it's the seeming inability of anyone to actually control and pass.

I mean, as if Rooney wouldn't have been the first player to pile in if one of the Portuguese players had trod on his teammate's bollocks.

Here, I think the people are ludicrously optimistic and the media play up to this, not the other way round. My dad is ludicrously optimistic, and he doesn't get it out of the papers. He is just mental.

Konal mentioned psychiatric treatment above. Spain had it, and buckled anyway. I do think, however, that Rooney's problems are probably fairly easy to treat, but no one will do it, because "that's Wayne" ansd we don't want him to lose his "edge".

What we're seeing now, with the attempts to intimidate C Ronaldo, is partly the reason I can't support the national team with any kind of conviction - just the sheer nastiness surrounding it. V. depressing for me.

Is it really ludicrous tho? A strong league/foundation, strong players, coach with proven credentials...you'd expect a national team to do well with those components checked off - wouldn't you?

Italian camera crew, eh?

England are quite a good team, but not the best. They got to the quarter finals, went out on penalties, could have got a bit further with a bit of luck. Didn't play very well. A fair result really.

The idea that the popularity of top-flight English football outside England is a result of the rest of the world loving the Keystone Cops style low-quality slapstick is patently absurd.

And Zidane and Riquelme are (probably) the two best passers of the ball in the world at the moment. Each country gets a really good one of those once in a while, if they are lucky, no-one gets them all the time.

The flipside of which is a refusal to see the writing on the wall regarding Rooney's behavioural problems.

Apart from that, maybe it is not ludicrous.

I think you could have said that when he took over, but it soon became apparent what a witless fool he was. Only NOBODY NOTICED COS OF THAT BLEEDIN WIN OVER GERMANY.

That was actually the worst day for English football for a long time, as it effective gave him a free pass, however badly he screwed everything up.

Sigh.

There were even people defending him up to a couple of moths ago on that Sven c'd thread.

Sigh.

What a chump.

My typing = Sven's tactics

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It's when you look at the details of what happened, of why we lost matches that you see Eriksson's faults.

And this time round, it wasn't even that much of an achievement. The most ridiculously easy qualifying group. The easiest or perhaps second-easiest 1st round group, the easiest 2nd round match(ukraine or switzerland would have tried to bore us to death rather than just rolling over like Ecuador), and then, on paper, one of the easier quarter final opponents withouth their best player and another key player.

Set against that is the bad luck of the Owen injury, but we knew that neither he nor Rooney would be fully fit, so we should have prepared to play without them anyway. Then their return or performances as sub would have been a bonus.

Instead, Sven went for one of his zen idiocy moments and just told himself they would be fit and in form. The power of positive thinking, eh?

i don't blame him for England players fucking up penalties for the fifth time out of six attempts. and no matter how bad some of Eriksson's decisions turned out to be, these aren't really why England aren't in the semis.

he was a 'foreigner' who himself must feel somewhat baffled and frustrated at the culture he had to come and work within - this loser mentality coupled with severe expectation/past results imbalance (unlike in England, Germany, Brazil and Italy can expect to do well largely because they have a history of doing well) and absurd media intensity + xenophobia.

*i hope he does well!

It'll be interesting. His record in club football is fantastic. I was very excited about getting him as coach. It was playing Emile Heskey as a left winger (for how many games?) that turned me against him (and did for Heskey's career, really).

I really don't know how he had that success as a club manager. I know he's a player-focused manager, rather than a coach or tactician, so maybe he just buys the best, has a good eye for a player and , to an extent, lets them get on with it. From his time as an international coach, it's difficult to see any positive qualities at all.

Do you think he'll get a top job, then? His stock must be lower than when he took over, mutn't it?

"He wished me the best of luck in the World Cup. He told me we had a great team and that if we continued to play like this, we would go far.

How many qualifying matches did England lose under him again? 1 out of something like 30 (inc. beating teams that had reached the final 4 at World Cup '02 - even tho they weren't particularly great, hmm)
Tournament games lost: 4 out of 14, but two of those on penalties.

his international record on paper consequently remains good (deceptive as it may be wrt how they won games) and he got further in this tournament than Hiddink, Advocaat and other coaches on a similar par. i'm just fucked off with people concentrating their ire on him rather than certain players for choices they made way beyond the limits managerial influence.

BINGO!

Now, does the Premiership contribute to this? Hell yes. It feeds the expectation of the result, and blows up the reputation of the players, creating a gap between reality and the hype. That's the gap which causes our so-called world stars to get found out. It's amazing what Stevie Gerrard can do with Didi Hamann or Xabi Alonso behind him week in week out.

As for France, it might not have a league of footballing brilliance, but it does have a centre of footballing excellence, which might be why they produce many excellent footballs, rather than people with good engines and a smart shot. Why don't we have such a centre? Answers on a postcard to Sir Dave Richard, Chairman of the Premier League, Member of the FA Board and the Appointment panel for the new England manager.

Tim - A friend met the vice-president of the Italian FA recently, and after the interview, they got chatting about English football and Italian football. The Italian VP started laughing, and said, between hysterical sobs 'you love a tackle!' and shook his head many times and wiped his eyes in merriment.

So, our past glories get in the way of attainting present success, believing us to somehow have a natural right to success, despite precious evidence that we have any realistic chance. Now I know what it's like to be a Spurs fan.

xpost - Eriksson was a league manager - he makes the conservative bets that, like Mourinho does, he knows will eventually pay off. Percentage football wins out over a season. Not so cup competitions, which are a different skill entirely. That's why Scolari is good at them, it's why Hiddinck is good at them, that's why they are good national coaches in tournament football. We go back to another thread where I made the point about not knowing what we want from our coach (especially not knowing that his name should have been Guus Hiddinck) and instead appointing on the wrong job spec.

okay, let's try that in text speak. any advance on: Xian. URGR8. LUV WYN.

In fact, I'd be prepared to bet that one Italian FA VP isn't even in the group which enjoys watching Premiership football on a regular basis.

France's "Centre of Excellence" so reliable at turning out players of such a standard that more than one of their squad had to be persuaded out of international retirement for this tournament, yes?

I'm not saying everything's perfect, just that your Corporal Fraser routine devalues your argument.

It is nice how footballers are always texting each other.

YRa Cnt##

FCK OF WANE YRa BIG CNT

they've won the adidas contract from a sweatshop in thailand???? ;)

there was a table in the obs yesterday that showed sven as the most "successful" england manager in terms of points per game in competitive matches, but clearly this is only one way of looking at things (also greater number of crap teams in europe = (theoretically of course) more easy points in qualifying...

i am reading FOUL: THE BOOK FIFA TRIED TO BAN by andrew jennings, which is a bit repetitive (we GET IT, jack warner is a tw@!!!) but also rather depressing...

To be fair that's also what I said, I just put the emphasis on the bit in brackets.

And also, it's not like I just turned against him. I've been drunkenly ranting sack the swede in pubs for four years or so.

Was this avodied somehow in Serie A? are there other cultural elements there that block it out?

rewind to all the flak Saachi was getting during WC'94...more than i've ever seen someone (except maybe Sven) get since. but somehow Baggio saved him then and they got to the final and were perhaps even unlucky not to win it.

and for all the Hiddink hype - he did get pwned back in '96. maybe that's what it took for him to learn?

ok include Trappatoni there.

What's that got to do with the Premiership again?

I still can't believe people think England shouldn't expect to do well. As I've said several times already, you either have this hype about your team because you are a big country, or you have no hype because you are Ireland/Switzerland/Wales etc, any of you who've read Keane's book will remember him complaining about the lack of expectation surrounding Ireland going into the last World Cup and how it failed to motivate the players.

You can't have a middleground here, if you are remotely good enough to have expectations of winning the World Cup, and surely a former champion with a popular league is in this bracket, then some parties will overhype your chances.

As I said, do you really think Brazil are tempered and relaxed in their coverage of the team? Or Italy, the same country where the parliament got involved after bad refereeing last time around? And a player was booted out of Perugia?

Also what about France, they were absolutely awful for how long before winning in 1998?

Surely England have every right to feel they can win the World Cup, as I keep saying, how can they approach the tournament in any other way, what is the appropriate level of humility here and what country has displayed this?

You must take each tournament as it comes, not think "we got to the quarter finals last time, so no need to expect better this time around, that would be arrogant and send the wrong message to the players".

Honestly I know it must hurt to lose on penalties but stop feeling so bloody sorry for yourselves and your multi million pound league.

You can easily see the reasons why we didn't play well, and they're mostly specific management decisions.

Starting with the obvious:

1) When two of your strikers are doubtful, only taking two others, niether of whom you have any real faith in, while taking a midfield player (Jenas) who was never going to kick a ball, is MADNESS.

Shall we carry on.

On the one hand, perhaps it really is a case of Eriksson needing more experience on international level. But worth remembering again Scolari picked the same number of strikers as Sven, and has coped with it.

On the other surely NO amount of experience will prevent England losing on penalties again and again, if they are unable to avoid them (obv. that's the ideal but most teams have to play them now and then).

Touched on above but do England actually hold the record for being involved in penalty shootouts more than anyone else?

Having said that, I'd like to point out that with only ten men on the pitch, forced to abandon their cerebral and cynical strategy and just play, England looked alright. For all the talk of Lampard and Gerrard not stepping up, they both had shots on goal, and ten English men looked no worse than 11 Portuguese.

After long supporting him, I'm no longer sure about Robinson. For all his nerviness in open play, I think Calamity James might have made a save or two and kept England alive in the PKs. After long being willing to see what Hargreaves could do and distrusting the xenophobic English dislike of him, I feel vindicated. He was quite good on Saturday.

The most fun I've had this whole world cup came after the disappointment of England vs. Portugal, when Henry, who is surely one of the best players not to have done well at this level, finally got a grasping, willful goal. It wasn't French brilliance, it was pluck, and the way it suddenly reminded the Brazilians that they were facing the only team to have beaten them since '98 was incredible. Instead of their usual self-confidence, you could see their desperation as every attempt to score failed finally congealing into resignation. What better way for Zidane to spend his valedictory tournament than having such fun with the champions? It turned my whole day around.

W, T and, in a very real sense, F????

Interesting point.

Tim - But where would the Premiership be without the products of France's Centre of Excellence?

I'm not Corporal Frasering, but anyone who thinks that the Premiership is good foundation for an assault on the is on patriot drugs. The main problem is our national football culture, and the Premiership is the acme of it, rather than something that's part of the solution.

On a lighter note

xpost - when your boss makes shitty recruitment decisions time after time, you have to start looking at them, not the people they recruit. That's what I'm trying to do here.

France went into a dip after 1986, and went through a soul-searching exercise that led to the Clairfontaine centre of Excellence. Their success was based on a proper strategic reassessment after an honest period of reflection upon failure which went beyond 'if only we could beat Germany in World Cup semi finals, oh well'. No-one wants to have that reassessment, and part of that is that English footballc an't dare admit its faults publicly. People have to die before it gets anywhere near the appropriate level of sound reflection. It's a constant and recurrent trait of the country, which obviously will be manifest in football, and until it changes, nothing will change.

You bring up the Ahn Jung at Perugia; the guy who did that is currently in the Virgin Islands on the run for fraud, and Ahn wasn't sacked, but rather more mundanely, his contract ran out. Byron Moreno, the ref, was so villified that he, er, appearred on a game show having a gigle about it. See Christiano Ronaldo appearing on celebrity Who wants to be a millionaire anytime soon? As far as I'm aware, no-one had set up an 'Ihateronaldo' website within 2 days, nor the leading circulation newspaper printing a face imposed on a dartboard. If we were more Brazilian or Italian, we'd be chucking rotten tomatoes at Frank Lampard, which might be no bad thing.

Also - a country which seems to have balanced a rightful confidence without corrosive arrogance; I think you can guess where you can find them, can't you?

The Spurs reference was to do with the PF and MDC. It was a JOKE.

The Doc Rocks!

Bingo. But is this because The Massive Overfinanced Overhyped Premiership makes them seem better than they are, or because both Gerrard and Lampard are under club managers who know EXACTLY how to play to their strengths? The entire Liverpool team is built around getting the best out of Steven Gerrard. Ditto Chelsea and Lampard. That hasn't been the case with England - they've been slotted into the team awkwardly in terms of how they play with each other, and how they play with Beckham and Rooney (who the team HAS been built around).

Arsenal's equivalent of Gerrard/Lamps is of course Thierry Henry, who has never looked completely at ease with a France system that is built around Zidane. Consequently he's got a vastly inferior record for his country than he does for his club.

The one team that DID recognise this were Argentina with Riquelme, and look what happened when he was taken out of the equation. Don't forget England got as far in the competition as Brazil and Argentina (whose players and managers are probably being castigated right now), and further than Holland and Spain.

fightin' talk.

drew blank against Scots, beaten 4-1 by England, scraped thru to quarters to lose on pens against France

but the experience clearly made him what he is now!

i think this is cobblers and Gerrard is better than both of those players. altho if you'd used Lampard as the example...

Let's not forget Germany are only so united because they've played well, before the tournament you had a whole cabal of people slating Klinsmann mainly because he'd revoked their media privileges. Surely not the best foundation for success.

Also as has already been said, Italy are in the semi-finals and their league is now being dissected for massive corruption. Surely match fixing undermines a league more than anything going on in the Premiership?

I'm just not sure the problem is that England aren't producing good players, the bigger problem in this World Cup is that they played very poorly. Saying otherwise and criticising the players who perform well at club level lets Sven off the hook, IMO.

Portugal have a system that they stick to, but that they can play with different personnel in the different positions. We seemed to suddenly try all sorts of different systems, driven by the enforced changes in personnel.

It's fine building your system around your best players (Didn't portugal start playing 'the wheel' a few years ago because they had three fantastic attacking midfielders - Figo, Rui Costa and erm, the other bloke) and you should have flexibility between and in matches, but we just seemed to blunder from one idea to the next and ended up with a system that didn't play to anyone's strengths, least of all Rooney's.

i'd be jubilant that they'd reached the semis but i'd be disappointed they did it in the way they did. Eriksson would still be getting stick no doubt (but not from me).

No, if we were Italian we'd be saying "Ah, what can you do? The ref was bribed again, there's no way Rooney should have been sent off, but we'll get no joy out of UEFA because their all in on it too. The whole world's against us and they're all laughing because we're out." And then Cristiano Ronaldo would be sacked and deported.

Maybe you could bring back Howard Wilkinson or George Graham and create a programme called "A GOOD STINT OF HARD WORK".

As for Germany, hell, I'll take any foundation if it gets me into the semi-finals with all my players available and looking like they're playing as a agood team. I've been waiting for 10 years now. And revoking media priveliges is a great idea. Maybe an England manager should do it. Hands up who thinks Steve McClaren is the man to do this? Culture, once again.

Can you be sure we won't make the same mistake with respect to the Sven replacement? Oh, we did. Will we do it again? I can't say I'm optimistic we've learnt.

I think Becks is still a world-class passer of the ball, but lacks whatever zip he had that made him good on the right.

Lets play him and Hargreaves, who I tink everyone can say proved himself on Saturday in the centre then (without Owen) Cole, Lampard Gerrard as a switching attacking three and Rooney up front. Hargreaves or the defence win it and give it to Becks. There's plenty of movement up front and he can show off the range of his passing better from the centre of the park (like Pirlo for Italy). The attacking midfielders are closer to Rooney. When Owen comes back, drop one of the three (on current form, Lampard) and move Rooney back there. Want more pace? Play Lennon or (one day) Walcott instead of Cole.

Anyway, back to work ...

I think focussing on Rooney's dismissal or the penalties is missing the point.

We were never going to win that game in normal time even with Rooney because of the crazy way we were set up.

We played much better with him off the pitch. An unfit Rooney in that role and a newly-useless Beckham on the right meant that it was like playing with nine men anyway.

It's only because Portugal turned up to play our reputation as a big team instead of the shambles that had played the previous three games that they didn't press us harder.

sorry

Joseph S. Blatter, shore up a corrupt, incompetant mate, surely not?

Yeah but you made the point that the English league/culture is what's causing the problems for England, and I'm saying that Germany have achieved well from a platform of seeming disarray and a system whereby the media mounts a campaign against the manager prior to the tournament.

My point is that the World Cup does not necessarily reflect the health of a countries football league/culture. It's a cup competition at the end of the day.

Funnily enough, all our pens were on target - two of theirs weren't. Perhaps there should be a points system, like archery?

neither were Portugal, in that case. too much made of formation problems - the players said they could handle it. are they all automations, as Gary Neville feared they would become?

More on culture:

Was 'forced' to endure the game in a random pub on Saturday. went for the Duke of St. Albans in Tufnell Park area. pub full of men, women and children i.e. families inc. one wanker with a klaxon. so far so fair enough tho. anyway from the start there's cheering of England players and booing of Portugese inc. referring to Scolari as a 'wanker'. adults hurling abuse at 'the enemy' in front of kids. it was quite sickening really and at half-time we left and ended up in the much quieter, cooler Bull & Gate in time for the rest of the struggle. not much better there tho. during the shootout a Scouser at the bar was cheering the Portugese penalties causing a burly shaven-headed goon in England shirt to start abusing the Scouser!

perhaps these people DESERVE to see 'their' team go out the way they do. bit unfair on the rest of us mind you.

(sorry to sound like a snob here but really these people and their mentality - including blaring 'EE AINT DONE NUFFINK' re Rooney's stamp and cursing the Argie ref at every opportunity even when replays showed he got the decision right - are fucking horrendous and i wish they'd piss off. flags on cars remain absolutely fine btw i saw TEN flags on a car outside my work last week :)

apology accepted!

or like soccer.am's thing - no keepers, holes in a bit of cardboard taped over the goal, who scores the most in a minute wins.

portuganese keeper obviously been taking lessons from Derren Brown btw.

I have just seen that Boyle's reference to me is not very nice. He seems to be implying that I expect Tottenham to win things. This is false, as anyone who has talked to me about football will know.

I am quite glad, on balance, that England are out of the World Cup. I prefer the sting of national critique to the balloon of bullshit adulation. I wish I could put that point better. To put it another way: better to dispel delusions than to feed them. No - I am still not putting it very well.

Like Boyle, I don't like the disgusting tabloid scapegoating (of Ronaldo in this case) - but this is not new, it's an old routine - almost to the point where I'm not sure anyone believes it. Then again I have been listening to 5Live phone-ins for once, and people on that do seem to believe it. I don't believe it - I don't think Ronaldo had anything to do with Rooney getting dismissed, and anyway, as he was playing vs England, it's not surprising if he was glad when an English player was dismissed.

It is difficult to know what to say, constructively, about England. I admire the efforts of the Doc, Steady Mike and others, but I don't feel very able to add to them. Perhaps that is because this time around, I don't, for a change, feel much investment in the team. I would tend to echo what PJM said upthread about being put off the whole thing, by whatever it was he said put him off. You should hear his critique of the England team. It is good.

Figo apparently said: 'these games turn on little things'. That might be a very good point. Perhaps he should be a manager. Perhaps with some little things different, England would be semi-finalists. But I am not sure I would be very happy about that.

I am excited about France and thus trembling with doubts about their chances.

no. i have been lurking but know so little about the football have not posted; but i felt up to contesting the man k-punk, which i had read earlier today.

So with this. The powers have been either not been able to see the failings, or have not been able to correct them. Either way, that's a problem.

Ronan - a media campaign is very different in Germany to England. They've got Bild. We've got the Sun, the Mirror, the Star, the Express and the Mail, and then various radio and tv stations which feed off this agenda. The nearest they got to having a pop was to suggest that Klinsmann smiled too much by calling him 'grinsi klinsi'.

xpost - K-punk is incredibly OTM

In any case I partly agree with you that the actions of Klinsmann lay down a good marker for England, and yes that England need a coach who will be brave enough to drop players and face the media head on in this regard, as Klinsmann has done in Germany. Also doubt McLaren will do this.

I just don't think England are unique in having these problems, nor do I agree it's the fault of the Premiership, I mean you guys are producing the players, it seems.

Great piece by K-punk, but surely what he says is at odds with the people saying expectation is too high in England?

-- Michael Jones (tourajsig...), July 3rd, 2006.

A HARD shot on target. HARD. WITH. POWER.

I think all the 'oh we did as well as well as we could have expected' talk is missing the point.

I did not expect us to do better than the quarters, but it's the WAY that we threw it away that matters. Shouldn't we expect more?

France vs Portugal will be fascinating. Antipathy to Portugal makes me want to see France win, and a sentimentality to see Zidane in another final the same.

A HARD shot on target. HARD. WITH. POWER.

Ah well, now you're using caps and lots of punctuation, I can see your point(s).

KICK. IT. YOU. PANSY.

Any player of a vague degree of competence should be able to put a ball in a place that no keeper on earth could save. It's a skill. We can't do it. For shame.

I've gone from wanting France to bundle out in the group stages to wanting them to win the thing. I don't mind if Germany win it but I sense a crushing inevitability about Italy right now.

Italians to thread.

The players to do what? We're not producing players with enough talent to edge out a crap Portugal, to play to their potential when it REALLY matters, to take a decent penalty, to think on the hoof, to keep their discipline....

x-post you need to decide if you actually think the entire team is shit and it's their fault or if you think they played below par and the manager is to blame, stop having it both ways.

Italians to thread.

This just makes me think of Roberto Baggio :(

As for the semis, well you might say that both Portugal and France have led a charmed life thus far, but in very different ways. The cynic in me feels that somehow, Portugal will burst the French bubble, but how I'm not sure (maybe cos they can't be any more ineffective than they were against England?).

A few months ago Italy beat Germany 4-1 so perhaps the time for a reversal is now. Italy have not had the challenge that Germany have met so far (in Argentina) and this might be their undoing. Everything seems to point to Germany despite Italy's impressive professionalism and composure so far but I tipped them as one to win it beforehand and just can't recant.

i think his steez is all aboout 'optimism of the will' at the moment or some shit, so it's kind of 'if you believe, then your skills improve'. whereas dave is saying there is altogether too much belief and not enough hard work? k-punk would call this empiricist.

As suggested by someone upthread, keep this one alive for the England whinges...

...this is not a criticism by the way, i think i'm just a bit odd today, i could smell jam rolypoly as i walked down the street before...

Any player of a vague degree of competence should be able to put a ball in a place that no keeper on earth could save. It's a skill. We can't do it. For shame.

I'm surprised you're simplifying this in this way! Shevchenko has missed penalties which makes Serie A rubbish? I'm sure Raul has missed penalties too. And these are centre forwards.

Notice that England did not have a centre-forward taking a penalty. Absurd. They only had one on the pitch. Also absurd. I'd like to see Lampard, Gerrard and Crouch continuing to take penalties for their clubs though. How else to try and overcome the hoodoo?

K-Punk might call it empiricist, but I would tell him to take his poncy clever-clever bollocks out of my game. As El Tel would readily confirm, K-Punk is not a football man.

Ronan - most of the team are shit, as shown on Saturday. Sven is probably shit too. I already said that the players should take more of the blame.

I never get 'below par' - you do what you do in the situation you're in and are judged accordingly. Were England 'below par' on Sat? I don't think so - they've played 5 and were crap in all 5, so I'd say they were as expected.

haha OK I don't want to get into an argument with a ghost k-p (or (worse) make you stand in for him NRQ!

The suggestion that the Egland team are unskilled is the one to which I'm objecting. It's simply not true that the England players we watched performing badly at the weekend are poor performers carried along by their blatantly superior furrin teammates. It's true we don't have anyone who can do what Zidane does, but nor does anyone else.

I suppose at root I'm trying to say: all this raging against the machine and thrashing about is part of the same problem as the insane optimism. I don't expect more because experience has led me not to expect more. All of the England team are pretty good, some are really rather brilliant. They haven't played well as a team, this time.

I hope for more, sometimes.

xpost

I think Rooney can/will come close, but obv. not this time.

don't agree that sven couldn't have done anything about it either. witness klinsmann giving his players extra training drills to raise their level, partly because he doesn't rate the slowness and the style of play of the bundesliga. you don't need root and branch reform if you have a coach who has a fucking clue, look at australia - a naive rabble twelve months ago at the confed cup and yet we took italy to the last seconds. with an english second division player in the side.

otm

Tee hee!

And we've had rubbish team selection and tactics for five bloody years.

It was inevitable we'd get knocked out of Euro 2004 the instant we scored first, 'cos you knew the tedious hold what you have crap that was going to follow.

And Portugal should have been clear favourites before the game this time round, given the rubbish that we had served up in the four preceding games.

I think people are being quite unfair to them as well. They had around 60-40 possession, 60-40 territory, more shots on and off target, better passing accuracy. Figo and Ronaldo were putting together the best football on offer and Maniche looked threatening from distance. Until Rooney went off we were second best by some distance. We deserved to get beat.

I don't understand why everyone's hating on Italy either. In Totti and Pirlo, they have two of the great creative players left in the tournament.

Portugal prob thought england would lie down and die, pretty much, leaving them free to pick up a goal before the end.

But a pretty good victory record in that time too. Stop blowing it out of proportion.

Loser mentality! I don't believe in inevitability although my faith was shaken when Carragher and co. missed of course. England played well in the Euro 2004 match, and with Lampard's late equaliser they did something I didn't expect. But if they could stay 1-0 up for 82 minutes, I don't see why they couldn't have stayed 1-0 up for 83 minutes...or 86 minutes...or 89 minutes...or 93 minutes...you get the idea. I think this inevitability idea is bullshit that needs to be quashed if people are to escape the loser mentality.

I think people are being quite unfair to them as well. They had around 60-40 possession, 60-40 territory, more shots on and off target, better passing accuracy. Figo and Ronaldo were putting together the best football on offer and Maniche looked threatening from distance. Until Rooney went off we were second best by some distance. We deserved to get beat.

Until Rooney got sent off I saw on screen the display said 50/50 in terms of possession. There was nothing between the teams at that point. I don't remember Portugal having more shots on or off target in that time. And 50/50 it stayed until the end from what I saw. Even England's passing wasn't that bad this time - possibly even better than two years ago.

We didn't deserve to get beat at all. It's a ridiculous thing to suggest. There is no 'deserve'.

Ghana
Brasil
Italy
Holland
France

Germany

That was sweet. That's the most I've ever celebrated a goal that turned out to mean nothing in the end.

I agree. That was great. We showed real character in that extra time period as we did on Sat. But not enough in the 90 minutes.

It's not that I have a loser mentality, Steve. I have just had no faith in the way Eriksson sets up the teams, so have expected to lose the big matches when the chips are down.

I also spent most of the last five years losing this argument with people who pointed to his record in competitive matches - and feeling like I was going mad when people were so optimistic in 2004.

Well, lots of things are *possible*.

Greece winning the flipping thing was possible! But why expect miracles when you can play to your strengths, play your best players in positions they are happy with, play positive attacking football ...

Have any sort of cogent strategy ...

um, Ghana were not that great. Italy and Brazil beat them convincingly. If Ecuador couldn't trouble England much why would Ghana?

how close can you play a team and still lose 3-0? maybe that only happens with Brazil.

it just seems really pointless to talk about which teams MIGHT'VE beaten England, and vice versa now.

Ditto. I was in a pub in Harwich and shit was fucking bananas.

xpost

So he was really to put it UP him?

To be honest, I'm not convinced those are Rooney's own words ;)

Yup, it is quite difficult to imagine that coming out of WR's mouth.

What I really mean is, though, that Ghana created lots of space for themselves by passing the ball very accurately between them, doing that great kind of chessy hopscotch zigzag thing down the field that France can do so well when they're "on." I never saw England put long sequences together like that. Maybe it's just a different style of play.

England are quite a good team, but not the best. They got to the quarter finals, went out on penalties, could have got a bit further with a bit of luck. Didn't play very well. A fair result really.

I agree with Hopkins. All the "look how England have failed against Germany, how crap the Premiership/Eriksson is and what lessons must we learn?" stuff on this thread looks a bit daft in retrospect. Germany got err...precisely one game further than us. A bit of luck could easily have won the game against Portugal. As it was, we got as far as Argentina and Brazil did. We got further than Spain and Holland.

Mind you, at the start of the tournament Gabriele Marcotti said on the Guardian podcast that the problem with England is that we are too modest about our ambitions, considering reaching the semi-finals an achievement in itself, whereas in Italy, ending up anything less than champions equals failure. You pays your money and you takes your cod psychological choice.

I stopped to talk to a solitary policeman who was shaking his head on a street corner. “Never seen the likes of it in me life, sir,” he said in wonderment. “The end of the war, they say, but I were no more than a nipper then. Course, Christmas, New Year, well, you expect it then. But if you’d have said to me three weeks ago when the Cup began that we’d he watching a night like this here, I’d have said you was plain barmy, begging your pardon, sir.”

Marvellous.

He later bemoans the fact that the crowd at Wembley had too many people who would be comfortable at twickenham and Wimbledon, rather than the knowledgeable football crowds of Middlebrough and Liverpool; he felt the openness and warmth of those places was lost on the day, as the influx of those types brought a more aggressively pro-England attitude and less generous to the opposition that for him had been the joys of the competition.