Liverpool won't win the Champions League or UEFA Cup 2006/07

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750 answers is way too long a thread to start the season with, so it's time for a new thread.

Also - eat that, Nipper.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 18 August 2006 07:17 (nineteen years ago)

Will you, wont you, Will you, wont you, Will you join the dance?

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 18 August 2006 07:21 (nineteen years ago)

wtf the other thread was fine. if you have 'last 100 msgs only' thing on what's the problem?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:12 (nineteen years ago)

No, I like the other thread. Started with such a premise, I feel less bad about crowing over Liverpool's occasional slip-ups. I did stop short of posting a YouTube link to the second half of that Mainz match tho'.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:19 (nineteen years ago)

And to think I did it all for you Mike.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:21 (nineteen years ago)

mail me it (xpost)

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:21 (nineteen years ago)

this thread is disastrous

― -- (688), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:27 (nineteen years ago)

I quite like it. It has potential.

― Pete W (peterw), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:31 (nineteen years ago)

I have weakly capitulated and unlocked the other thread.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:33 (nineteen years ago)

Appeaser.

― Pete W (peterw), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:35 (nineteen years ago)

You can never say "Liverpool won't win the Premiership 2006/07" enough

― Dadaismus (a rattly old puffin who remembers ILX in the days when...) (Dada), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:36 (nineteen years ago)

T/S: Liverpool won't win the Premiership 2006/07 vs Liverpool will win the premiership 2006/07 FITE!

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:44 (nineteen years ago)

could rotate both threads?

― -- (688), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:46 (nineteen years ago)

It'll end in tears.

― Pete W (peterw), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:46 (nineteen years ago)

we could make this the 'season in Europe' thread for both Champions League and UEFA Cup matters?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:53 (nineteen years ago)

sorted.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 18 August 2006 08:53 (nineteen years ago)

could rotate both threads?

It won't work. One thread will throw a hissy fit and then get farmed off to Charlton on loan.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 18 August 2006 09:00 (nineteen years ago)

Will people still remember to berate me on this thread?

― Mary (Mary), Friday, 18 August 2006 19:40 (nineteen years ago)

Xpost: We'll take it. Can it play left-back?

― Scourage (Haberdager), Friday, 18 August 2006 19:44 (nineteen years ago)

I think it is bad and wrong to focus on Liverpool so much. They have the look of also-rans about them.

(I will be like this all season.)

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 21 August 2006 13:28 (nineteen years ago)

Fair point. We could change the club in the thread title every few weeks.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Monday, 21 August 2006 13:39 (nineteen years ago)

'Reading won't win the Champions League or UEFA Cup 2006/07'

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 21 August 2006 13:41 (nineteen years ago)

'Charlton won't win this weekend'

― Scourage (Haberdager), Monday, 21 August 2006 14:04 (nineteen years ago)

Motherwell won't win.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Monday, 21 August 2006 14:05 (nineteen years ago)

"Inverness Clachnacuddin won't win the Highland League 2006/7"

― dud'Hab'c'Deva To You (With ReGard) (Dada), Monday, 21 August 2006 14:06 (nineteen years ago)

I Can't See Cammell Laird's Nippy Number Nine Missing From There Again On Tuesday (Should A Chance Present Itself)

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Monday, 21 August 2006 14:35 (nineteen years ago)

I think the match has started. It may interfere with The Spy Who Loved Me. I forogt to watch Crocodile Dundee II again.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 18:11 (nineteen years ago)

The match has started. It's OK, according to the commentator, this isn't the Champions League Proper (presumably this is the Champions League equivalent of the bit at the start of Going for Gold where Henry Kelly gets rid of some grinning Swedish mook who doesn't know who John Wayne is)

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 18:14 (nineteen years ago)

Haifa had a goal disallowed, but I don't know what for as I wasn't really paying attention.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 18:16 (nineteen years ago)

It was about a mile offside.

What does Pleat have against Liverpool? He seems to be willing Haifa to win. I also noted he, of all the Guardian's pundits, predicted Liverpool to finish lowest. Only 4th, but still.

Not a vintage LFC performance but I suppose it will do. The Haifa keepa is the best player on the pitch so far.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

(plz to note that, despite being a girl, I have a vague concept of the notion of offside if they didn't keep changing it all the bloody time. I was actually on the phone to my mum with the sound off on the telly and I actually *really* wasn't paying attention)

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 18:39 (nineteen years ago)

Whoever was running the cameras was doing a terrible job - I wasn't having a go, Ailsa...

An unnecessarily anxious last 20 minutes, not helped by Garcia's complete inability to hold up the ball (I'm astonished Rafa didn't sub Bellamy for him at 75 mins), but a job... done, just about.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 19:31 (nineteen years ago)

Liverpool looked not great, yes. What's Haifa's standing, generally, can someone enlighten me? Are they the sort of team that Liverpool should be steam-rollering over, or are they Champs-League quality?

Hearing the list of teams they could meet being reeled off, I can confidently predict that Celtic won't win the Champions League or UEFA Cup either. *quakes in fear*

I didn't think you were having a go, Jerry, I was covering my back for future reference to this thread in years to come.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 22 August 2006 19:43 (nineteen years ago)

An unnecessarily anxious last 20 minutes, not helped by Garcia's complete inability to hold up the ball (I'm astonished Rafa didn't sub Bellamy for him at 75 mins

Absolutely right, Garcia is so frustrating. Also once Momo left we really didn't look great in central midfield. This tender start to the season by Xabi (admittedly he wasn't awful last night) and Stevie G could be a real problem, especially if Momo is now injured. Gerrard looked like a man who'd just had a stomach bug when he came on.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 08:39 (nineteen years ago)

the bit at the start of Going for Gold where Henry Kelly gets rid of some grinning Swedish mook who doesn't know who John Wayne is

Lex isn't Swedish!

― dud Hab 'C' dEva (Dada), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 08:42 (nineteen years ago)

"Inverness Clachnacuddin won't win the Highland League 2006/7"

"Fort William will win one game all season in the Highland League 2006/7"

Incidentally I'm buying at a spread of 110-115 goals conceded by the mighty Fort this season..

― Matt (Matt), Wednesday, 23 August 2006 08:48 (nineteen years ago)

Draw on right now. I have TEH FEAR.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:17 (nineteen years ago)

Bring on teh Galacticos. If we're gonnae get humped it may as well be a glamour xxx humping.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:20 (nineteen years ago)

why are Chelsea in pot 2?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:22 (nineteen years ago)

Because the Powers That Be hate them.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:25 (nineteen years ago)

AEK Athens are seeded ahead of Dynamo Kiev????

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:26 (nineteen years ago)

Milan get Lille. CUH.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:26 (nineteen years ago)

Chelsea get either Barca or Real!

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:28 (nineteen years ago)

hahahaha Barca again!

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:29 (nineteen years ago)

and Celtic v Man U? wonderful!

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:29 (nineteen years ago)

Couldn't see that coming.

― Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:32 (nineteen years ago)

Email to ailsa 5 minutes ago:

Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid! Give us Real Madrid!

(Bet we get Man U)

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:32 (nineteen years ago)

Am are teh psychic jinx.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:32 (nineteen years ago)

Marvellous. I fork out squillions of pounds each year to see top international class players come to (hammer) Celtic, and I have to watch Darren sodding Fletcher.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:33 (nineteen years ago)

Darren sodding Fletcher was the best player on the park last night, and he completely dumbfounded our defence for his well-taken goal.

(this says more about us than Fletcher, but hey-ho)

― Scourage (Haberdager), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:36 (nineteen years ago)

i really can't be bothered with barca chelsea again.

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

ouch werder bremen as well

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

Uefa clearly feel differently.

― Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

I think I heard wee Chick come when Celtic were drawn.

Chelski, Bartha, Weirder Bremen = G of D

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

arsenal off to russia for the zillionth time

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:41 (nineteen years ago)

Man Utd Benfica again!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:41 (nineteen years ago)

Galatasaray should round Group A off nicely.

― Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:42 (nineteen years ago)

Aye.

I don't fancy Celtic's lightweights going to HELL.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:43 (nineteen years ago)

I maybe shouldn't have said that :-/

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:45 (nineteen years ago)

Please not Shaktar Donetsk, please, I don't want Timoshchuk coming back to haunt us for not stumping up the money for him.

(yeah, shut up, you)

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:46 (nineteen years ago)

it's been a while since a Danish team made the final 32 isn't it?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:46 (nineteen years ago)

they've done this in the wrong order as usual anyway. reverse the order of pots for more excitement duh.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:47 (nineteen years ago)

Liverpool are gonna get Copenhagen, aren't they? Barely a long trip in there - no excuses on the Sunday following the away match, Rafa. You arse.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:49 (nineteen years ago)

What a nice cosy group for Milan there.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:51 (nineteen years ago)

milan always get a piss up.

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:53 (nineteen years ago)

Group A
BARCELONA
Chelsea
Werder Bremen
Levski Sofia

Group B
INTER MILAN
Bayern Munich
Sporting Lisbon
Spartak Moscow

Group C
LIVERPOOL
PSV Eindhoven
Bordeaux
Galatasaray

Group D
VALENCIA
Roma
Olympiakos
Shakhtar Donetsk

Group E
REAL MADRID
Lyon
Steaua Bucharest
Dynamo Kiev

Group F
MANCHESTER UNITED
Celtic
Benfica
FC Copenhagen

Group G
ARSENAL
Porto
CSKA Moscow
Hamburg

Group H
AC MILAN
Lille
AEK Athens
Anderlecht

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

Fixtures to follow in a few minutes.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:55 (nineteen years ago)

Galatasaray! Oh, that's more like it!

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:55 (nineteen years ago)

United have got the group of huggles. What a swizz, again.

― Earwig oh! (Mark C), Thursday, 24 August 2006 15:59 (nineteen years ago)

They had a 'huggles' group last year and didn't get thru so doesn't really make any odds. Barcelona are on a roll and will win this again anyway.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 24 August 2006 16:03 (nineteen years ago)

Neil Lennon doesn't do hugglez!

He doesn't exactly do running either, but still.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 24 August 2006 16:05 (nineteen years ago)

wahey well if it isnt rigobert song at galatasaray

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 24 August 2006 16:10 (nineteen years ago)

and smicer at bourdeux

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 24 August 2006 16:10 (nineteen years ago)

Slavia Prague!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 25 August 2006 12:28 (nineteen years ago)

Hearts have had to switch their tie around to avoid being in Prague at the same time as The Hotspurs

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Friday, 25 August 2006 12:30 (nineteen years ago)

the rivalry between Hearts fans and Spurs fans IS well known.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 25 August 2006 12:33 (nineteen years ago)

Balls, I really wanted Rangers to draw Derry City to test their new "non-sectarian" policy to breaking point and beyond

― dud Hab 'C' dEva (Dada), Friday, 25 August 2006 12:33 (nineteen years ago)

Hearts and Spurs

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 25 August 2006 12:34 (nineteen years ago)

Christian Ziege makes a wonderful cameo in that flick.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 25 August 2006 12:37 (nineteen years ago)

Ha ha, that's brilliant! Well ferreted out Matt (xpost)

― dud Hab 'C' dEva (Dada), Friday, 25 August 2006 12:39 (nineteen years ago)

two weeks pass...

OK, kiddies, it's 15 minutes in and I haven't been paying attention because I've been watching EastEnders. I have watched about two minutes each of the Liverpool game and the Chelsea game. Oh, decisions...what to do?

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 18:06 (nineteen years ago)

Chelsea is the better game from what I've seen.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 18:40 (nineteen years ago)

I've given up and I'm watching old eps of Seinfeld.

Have I missed anything exciting? I saw Essien's goal.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

Stevie G thumped a post late on. Other game was also goalless so, as PSV away was theoretically LFC's toughest fixture, it's Advantage Rafa. Oh look - Morientes scored a hat-trick! Barce and Bayern took the piss a bit against Levski and Spartak.

Father-in-law is puzzled as to why they're showing "highlights" of a scoreless match they showed in its entirety earlier. Sports that end zero-zero are completely baffling to him.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 21:51 (nineteen years ago)

hopefully Ballack will let Lampard in on his supreme penalty taking steez.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Tuesday, 12 September 2006 22:12 (nineteen years ago)

ManU now 3-2 up on Celtic, sounds like a cracker but will have to make do with Alan Green and Lawro as I've no access to sky at the mo.

In other news Keane's Sunderland have just went 3 up away to Leeds.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 18:52 (nineteen years ago)

Puskas not very well.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 19:48 (nineteen years ago)

Man Utd v Celtic was indeed a cracker. I hope all the tabloid harbingers of "oh noes, Celtic are rubbish and will concede about a gazillion goals" type of doom are enjoying their humble pie. Yes, we lost, but it was not embarrassing really. Yes, Man Utd were better than us, and the scoreline only kept down due to some immense defending and goalkeeping from Celtic. Boruc's best save of the night was from Paul Telfer :-(

We didn't look as bad as people would have you believe we were going to, and I think the other two teams will struggle to come away only a goal worse off from Old Trafford. Chickens aren't being counted yet, but compared to this time last year...

― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

i really wnated to catch that game, but I don't have cable or internet now.... BUMMER.

also, blackburn in 19th, wtf.

― gbx (skowly), Wednesday, 13 September 2006 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

Real Madrid lost. Good.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 14 September 2006 06:16 (nineteen years ago)

Dynamo Kiev lost at home for the first time ever in Champions League. Even though Rebrov scored!

UEFA Cup tonight. Football on a Thursday. Weird.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 14 September 2006 08:19 (nineteen years ago)

Spurs looked good tonight against pretty poor opposition. Channel Five were well up Zokora's arse but he's beginning to look a great signing. Also if Tom doesn't become a fixture in the first team by the end of the season I will cry.

LOL @ the Hammers hype machine. This would never have happened if Hayden Mullins had been playing.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 14 September 2006 21:15 (nineteen years ago)

Good solid Palermo performance there, UEFA cup has our name on it now obviously.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 14 September 2006 21:17 (nineteen years ago)

this'll all end up with the storming of a brothel in Palermo.

No relevance really, but I've had it in my head all fucking evening

― Porkpie (porkpie), Thursday, 14 September 2006 21:26 (nineteen years ago)

Rangers were not good.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 14 September 2006 21:33 (nineteen years ago)

this'll all end up with the storming of a brothel in Palermo.

This is so-nearly my byline on Myspace.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 14 September 2006 21:34 (nineteen years ago)

Have Slavia Prague got a new stadium. That didn't look like the one I went to, which was lovely.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 15 September 2006 06:21 (nineteen years ago)

I use to live in a concret block facing Slavia stadium.

― Baaderonixx: the lost ILX years (baaderonixx), Friday, 15 September 2006 07:03 (nineteen years ago)

defoe really is rubbish these days, isn't he? he'll be 4th choice for two striking positions now, and will probably move in january.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 15 September 2006 08:41 (nineteen years ago)

4th choice for Spurs, 3rd choice for England!

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 15 September 2006 08:45 (nineteen years ago)

Good article: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/09/26/euroseptic.html

― Teh littlest HoBBo (the pirate king), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

There is a really annoying pop-up looking thing on that link that is not actually a pop-up. Just saying.

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 17:21 (nineteen years ago)

OK, I reclicked and the Pingo ad looks nicer. Never mind.

― Run Ruud Run (Ken L), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

knowing me knowing you

SAHA!

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 19:05 (nineteen years ago)

goal after utd being pwned pretty much for most of 60 minutes

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 19:08 (nineteen years ago)

What's up with Rooney? I know he's being played in unfavoured positions, but he's looking really out of sorts. The ginger beard doesn't help.

― Teh littlest HoBBo (the pirate king), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 20:02 (nineteen years ago)

meanwhile ronaldo carries on playing without a brain. :(

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 21:04 (nineteen years ago)

definitely agree about the beard. its weird, but i can't imagine any footballer playing well with facial hair as unkempt as that, especially as it's just emerged in the middle of a bad run of form. i usually scorn people who mock footballers over their aesthetic quirks, and use it as a stick to beat them with when their out of form, but three/four/five day stubble like that says: "i am upset about my lack of form, my personal life has been affected, but i am resigned to it continuing, and i am too depressed to do anything about it." when raul was at his worst in the last couple of seasons - scraggly hair, and three/four/five day stubble.

of course, i'm not sayin the look causes the poor form. for some reason, though, i think this particular look says something about the way a player is responding to a run of poor form. sir alex should be urging wayne to shave and freshen up for saturday's game.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 26 September 2006 22:27 (nineteen years ago)

I've got a bad feeling about this:

http://www.teamtalk.com/Images/75035.jpg

http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/archive/00194/Malcolm_Glazer_194616c.jpg

― Teh littlest HoBBo (the pirate king), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 08:30 (nineteen years ago)

In my dream last night I think I was a Liverpool player or associate of Rafa and we'd just played Chelsea but ended up at some house party after the match. We tried to go into one of the rooms which some of the Chelsea team were in but Mourinho barked at us furiously to leave. I was humilated and angry and Rafa didn't seem to have anything to say but retained a quiet dignity somehow.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 09:07 (nineteen years ago)

If you grew up following the European Cup in the 1970s and 80s you knew that Dynamo Kiev were a "crack Soviet outfit", Dynamo Dresden had a "stealthy hitman" up front and Honved Budapest were not so much a handy Hungarian football team as a "ruthless red machine". Then the Cold War thawed and an entire anthology of clichés was binned.

I think this is balls. None of these teams are that good anymore, simple as that!

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 09:08 (nineteen years ago)

Kilian OTM. This is why All New Sensible Haircut United have been better in the Premiership this season. Even Ronaldo's scrubbed up a little. Worst players = Rooney and Wes Brown. Do you see?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 09:10 (nineteen years ago)

WRT that article - interesting how no one ever raises objections to qualifiers, seeding and group stages when it comes to the World Cup or European Championships.

I like the idea of an FA Cup-style European Cup but that's not dissimilar to what we have in the UEFA Cup right now and who really cares about that, other than fans of the teams that are playing. And although pure knockout football is great, the Champions League is a far harder competition to win than the old European Cup.

The real problem with the Champions League is the ridiculous seeding system at which Chelsea are in the second tier, below Manchester United, despite having actually won the league. Considering its entirely rigged to suit the big teams, it's surprising that teams like Porto or even Liverpool win it at all.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 09:16 (nineteen years ago)

The UEFA Cup draw is seeded.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 09:59 (nineteen years ago)

the FA Cup is effectively seeded anyway what with biggest teams coming in from 3rd round onwards only. and if you look at FA Cup winners, for all the 'romance', only a handful of times in the last 20 years has the winner been a 'shock' of any sort. about the same ratio as the CL no?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 10:06 (nineteen years ago)

I like the idea of an FA Cup-style European Cup but that's not dissimilar to what we have in the UEFA Cup right now and who really cares about that, other than fans of the teams that are playing.

The reason no one gives a fuck about the UEFA Cup any more isn't the fact that it's knockout, but the fact that it's no longer a competition for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th best clubs in the country, but a competition for the 5th, 6th, and Rumbelows Intertoto Cup clubs. The CL is effectively the European Cup and the UEFA Cup combined - the modern UEFA Cup is a chance for the slightly-better-than-midtable teams from around the continent to play each other.

The problem with the group stages is that they're just boring. The only reason they exist is to guarantee that the clubs make lots of money by having at least 6 games in Europe. I don't have a problem with seeding (though I agree the current system seems to have little to do with ability, and everything to do with being a member of the cartel), but I think a knockout right from the start would be a lot more exciting. Maybe something like they way they seed Wimbledon would be best - then if the 'best' clubs get knocked out in the first round by an outsider they can't bleat about lost revenue as it's clearly their own fault.

― Teh littlest HoBBo (the pirate king), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 10:18 (nineteen years ago)

The real problem with the Champions League is the ridiculous seeding system at which Chelsea are in the second tier.. ... Considering its entirely rigged to suit the big teams

lols!!!??

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 10:22 (nineteen years ago)

he means it's rigged to suit G14 teams.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 10:24 (nineteen years ago)

What a goal from Peter Crouch!

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:55 (nineteen years ago)

brilliant finish

― treefell (treefell), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 18:55 (nineteen years ago)

wahey Bremen 1-0 up after Puyol own goal

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:00 (nineteen years ago)

jesus we were shite, 15 minutes at the start apart

― Porkpie (porkpie), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 19:48 (nineteen years ago)

i had a feeling Inter would flop in this campaign.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:20 (nineteen years ago)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42138000/jpg/_42138088_crouch3_getty416.jpg

Crouchbot in vehicle form

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:33 (nineteen years ago)

Madchen's photoshop-happy colleague to thread!

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 28 September 2006 05:51 (nineteen years ago)

pretty bad performance.....where is the midfield. also why oh why does Rafa keep persisting with Garcia, he didn't even take him off last night, Bellamy won a free kick with his very first touch pretty much. Sissoko also should have been on way earlier. What happened to Stevie G actually defending, he just seems to maraud around the pitch now!

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 28 September 2006 08:39 (nineteen years ago)

gerrard has come across like a total prick recently. he bangs on about his divine right to centre midfield and then when he does get it he spends the game mavericking around irresponsibly; not showboating per se, but hardly thinking about what the team really needs either. like souness was saying yesterday, last night basically proved why sissoko and alonso deserve to start in the middle.

tbf tho after years and years of liverpool helplessly bawling at him to save them it probably must be hard to adjust to playing a position again. still tho

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:06 (nineteen years ago)

oh yeah and him singling out walcott for the world cup failure was a bitch move too.

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:07 (nineteen years ago)

he wasn't actually having a dig at Theo himself tho. and he was right anyway.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:10 (nineteen years ago)

I'm interested in how Gareth sees the first couple of months of Bellamy's Liverpool career. Gareth? Seems too me that Mr. Benitez hasn't a clear idea of how to use him.

Is it really true that Liverpool have now gone 94 games without picking an unchanged side?

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:15 (nineteen years ago)

if i were to let myself be a betting man, i'd pop some money down on valencia. 15/1?

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:17 (nineteen years ago)

he wasn't actually having a dig at Theo himself tho. and he was right anyway.

it was still completely uneccessary, and insensitive. and spoken like a true not england captain.

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:19 (nineteen years ago)

i like it when players give their honest opinions, esp. if they go against the grain (altho once the World Cup was over a lot of people seemed to change their tune re approval of Walcott selection)

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:23 (nineteen years ago)

There's just not enough DROGBA on this thread.

― Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:32 (nineteen years ago)

well if it was me i'd have kept it to myself. you've got a 17 yr old who's done nothing wrong - even if the target was sven why bother criticizing in crashingly obvious style? bet his book doesnt contain any 'honest opinions' on frank lampard or missing his pen.

actually fuck it, i'll make that bet. don't suppose there's a site about that shows all shop's odds at once is there? n00b over here.

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:33 (nineteen years ago)

Oddschecker, probably.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:34 (nineteen years ago)

In fact...

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:35 (nineteen years ago)

cheers.

DROGBAAAA. isn't he great? even when he's an oaf i love him.

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:35 (nineteen years ago)

i'd bet on Bayern before Valencia i think

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:39 (nineteen years ago)

bayern still seem a little brittle to me, for the knockouts. look at valencia tho: super solid experience in the middle, super solid experience at the back, good keeper, and then best wingers in the world with quick, dangerous attacking full backs. and david villa and er, morientes. who will probly score loads this season let's face it. (also see how instantly effective reyes is now?) for a la liga season i might not fancy them 100%, but they look made for cups to me.

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:45 (nineteen years ago)

im not entirely sure benitez has a clear idea of how to use anyone (that said, i haven't seen much of liverpool yet this season). that said, havent bellamy and kuyt started the last 3 prem games, suggesting thats the preferred option, i dont know (maybe a reaction to the everton game with fowler and crouch?)

― -- (688), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:47 (nineteen years ago)

anyone else smell blood? werder bremen could do them at home, i reckon.

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 28 September 2006 09:57 (nineteen years ago)

oh whoops they were at home yesterday. still tho?

― rtccc (mwah), Thursday, 28 September 2006 10:00 (nineteen years ago)

There's just not enough DROGBA on this thread.

There's not enough Celtic on this thread. Not bottom of our group, hurrah!

Shall we anticipate Rangers' tricky task against the team currently lying 11th in the 14-team Norwegian league?

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:54 (nineteen years ago)

This year is Lyon's year.

― Baaderonixx in the year of the locusts (baaderonixx), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:05 (nineteen years ago)

Well, it's certainly not their ex-manager's year (see previous post)

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:08 (nineteen years ago)

look at valencia tho: super solid experience in the middle, super solid experience at the back, good keeper, and then best wingers in the world with quick, dangerous attacking full backs. and david villa and er, morientes. who will probly score loads this season let's face it. (also see how instantly effective reyes is now?) for a la liga season i might not fancy them 100%, but they look made for cups to me.

The first 30 minutes of Valencia vs Roma was really entertaining.

― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:19 (nineteen years ago)

OK, looking down the list of games I could be watching rather than actually watching Hearts looking really rubbish - WHO THE FUCK ARE THESE TEAMS?!?!

IK Start
Austria Magna
SCP Ruzomberok
Crvena Zvezda
FC Superfund
Atvidabergs FF
Chornomorets
Kayserispor
Ethnikos Achnas
Liteks Lovetch
Mlada Boleslav
Metallurg Zaporizhzhya
Rubin Kazan (agg: 1-0), 17:30
Rabotnicki Kometal
Randers FC
Rangers (kidding!)
Atromitos
Zulte-Waregem

I mean, really, wtf, Rabotnicki Kometal?!?!

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 28 September 2006 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

Rubin Kazan don't have like a score and a time after their wtf name, that's just me being shite at cutting and pasting.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 28 September 2006 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

Crvena Zvezda are former European Cup Winners!

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 28 September 2006 18:50 (nineteen years ago)

Crvena Zvezda = Red Star Belgrade

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 28 September 2006 18:51 (nineteen years ago)

Hearts are shocking. They look as if they're playing with 3 less players than Sparta.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 28 September 2006 18:52 (nineteen years ago)

Where are Grasshoppers from?

― M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 28 September 2006 19:19 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, it occurred to me that some of those teams may be other teams in corporate and/or foreign disguise.

I think Hearts are being confused by the fact that Sparta Prague are in disguise as, well, Hearts.

(xpost Zurich)

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 28 September 2006 19:21 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, I'm sure there's a pithy and amusing answer to that too, but I'm not going to be that person.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 28 September 2006 19:22 (nineteen years ago)

Is this the right thread to ask what's happened to West Ham? Thrashed 3-0 by Palermo tonight. Has the whole murky-transfer-takeover thing completed unsettled the team? Also - why are Spurs so bad this season?

― Teh littlest HoBBo (the pirate king), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:54 (nineteen years ago)

the same thing happened to Everton in 04/05 season after finishing 4th and despite a different situation team-wise, although i still think Spurs will turn it around quicker and finish top 10

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 28 September 2006 20:56 (nineteen years ago)

Both situations show the importance of continuity and balance really. Obviously Tevez and Mascherano have unsettled the West Ham team and its uncertain how well they really fit into the system.

Spurs meanwhile haven't really worked out a way of filling the Carrick void yet, especially given the way he dictated play at White Hart Line. The midfield has been changed too many times, there's no real force on the left. But really, its not that we're not creating chances, its a chronic lack of confidence in front of goal that I think is a hangover from failing to clinch 4th place last season.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 29 September 2006 07:11 (nineteen years ago)

With West Ham it is simply a case of being on a bad run. Tevez and Mascherano look class. However players like Konchesky, Reo-Coker, Gabbidon and Bowyer have been appalling in the last few games. It's easy to use takeovers and Argentines as scapegoats but it sidesteps the real problem.

Our fans disgraced themselves again. That worries me more.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Friday, 29 September 2006 07:57 (nineteen years ago)

Hi footballing ILx-types. Unusual for me to pop up here I know, but I'm currently being all proud-mum about my friend Paul who has written a Football-Type book and I thought I'd give you the link http://www.prawnsinthegame.com.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:44 (nineteen years ago)

ooh i dunno about paying £1 for every 22 pages of a book about corporate culture in football...

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 29 September 2006 12:16 (nineteen years ago)

Is this the right thread to ask what's happened to West Ham? Thrashed 3-0 by Palermo tonight.

That'd be because the Rosanero are teh awesome. One whole week on top of Serie A!

― Sadly, he will be the next Alexis Petridish. (Dom Passantino), Friday, 29 September 2006 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

The Portsmouth of Italian football!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 29 September 2006 12:23 (nineteen years ago)

I'm currently being all proud-mum about

i was VERY CONFUSED for a moment there...

...book sounds a touch terrace rockist, also surely the "get involved" link should go to Supporters Direct, not a slightly dodge street team effort...

also Ken, it's only £6.59 on amazong :)

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Friday, 29 September 2006 12:30 (nineteen years ago)

Please tell me the book is better written than that website?

Arsenals' ???

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:34 (nineteen years ago)

UEFA Cup Draw

GROUP B
Bayer Leverkusen
Club Brugge
Besiktas
Dinamo Bucharest
TOTTENHAM

Not that bad... on the other hand:

GROUP H
NEWCASTLE
Celta Vigo
Palermo
Fenerbahce
Eintracht Frankfurt

LOL.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 09:35 (nineteen years ago)

What odds would you like to offer me that you've actually got the finishing order of the groups there?

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 09:40 (nineteen years ago)

Balaban will bring the pain to the Lane no question.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 09:44 (nineteen years ago)

I really think Spurs' group looks very tasty, but that's probably based on Leverkusen/Bruges EC exploits of years gone by, D Buch hammering Everton last season and Besiktas winning at Chelsea a couple of years ago.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 09:53 (nineteen years ago)

In the interests of completeness for the other British teams who have less chance of doing well...

GROUP A
Auxerre
RANGERS
P Belgrade
Livorno
Maccabi Haifa

GROUP E
Feyenoord
Basle
Wisla Krakow
BLACKBURN
Nancy

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 13:09 (nineteen years ago)

Away to Besiktas and Leverkusen, home to Bruges and Bucharest.

― Matt (Matt), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 13:35 (nineteen years ago)

"Fey" "Nancy"

Wisla Krakow sound a bit fantasy novella to me.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 15:05 (nineteen years ago)

I'm pretty sure "wisla" is a word used by Irish gypsies....

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 15:10 (nineteen years ago)

The Fiver (Grauniad emaily thing) has the following opinion, making me glad I'm not the only one worried about the "who are ya, who are ya?"-ness of the UEFA Cup Of course it would be remiss of us to overlook the fact that Spurs, Blackeye Rovers and the Pope's O'Rangers also featured, with all three facing "tricky" ties (ie they're all in groups with teams the Fiver has heard of).

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 15:14 (nineteen years ago)

aw, aren't they the cutest?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Tuesday, 3 October 2006 15:23 (nineteen years ago)

Burton have won five games on the trot.

Stevengae beat Woking in the battle of the towns where our friends come from.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 10:06 (nineteen years ago)

who is from Woking?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 10:10 (nineteen years ago)

Madchen, innit?

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 10:21 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, it was Madchen vs Nipper. I imagine they had been psyching each other up for weeks.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 10:24 (nineteen years ago)

Is there anyone here from Corby? Kettering would do.

1997 Carlsberg Pub Cup Final (at Wembley!): Poulton Vics 3-1 Corby Caledonian.

I've never had much of a chance to crow about that.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 10:37 (nineteen years ago)

Celtic old codgers take on Liverpool old codgers tonight. It is on Channel 5. Might be bearable with the sound turned off.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 10:44 (nineteen years ago)

Plus John Barnes is supposed to be playing, meaning he won't be presenting!

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 10:45 (nineteen years ago)

Top five finish for City 06-07?

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 15:47 (nineteen years ago)

Celtic codgers v Liverpool codgers was very entertaining, but classifying Lex Baillie as a legend is taking things a bit too far. Worryingly, at the age of 56, Danny McGrain is still a better right back than Paul Telfer.

― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 21:21 (nineteen years ago)

loads of those Liverpool players never made a first team appearance to be honest, but always play in the masters, like John Durnin and Bob Boulder

― Porkpie (porkpie), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 21:28 (nineteen years ago)

Still, John Wark, eh?

― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 21:30 (nineteen years ago)

bob the boulder?

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Wednesday, 4 October 2006 21:51 (nineteen years ago)

McManaman scored the equaliser, just like he did in the UEFA Cup a few years ago. But...hang on, Stevie Mac's only about 34! That's like Pete Sampras playing the veterans' doubles with John Newcombe!

Didn't see most of the second-half but I though Celtic Legends played some lovely, neat stuff early on.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 5 October 2006 06:18 (nineteen years ago)

Joe Royle was ruefully Jonesian in his assiduous pointing out of boyhood Evertonians on the LFC team!

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 5 October 2006 08:21 (nineteen years ago)

Never lost a derby as manager, y'know... ;)

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 5 October 2006 08:37 (nineteen years ago)

'too bad' Collymore couldn't get a game last night.

― Konal Doddz (blueski), Thursday, 5 October 2006 09:19 (nineteen years ago)

but classifying Lex Baillie as a legend is taking things a bit too far

Indeed. And then there's Darren Jackson. Mind you, he did score two goals. I was annoyed at Colin Murray (as I often am) saying Joe Miller was playing "like Pat Nevin", he wasn't, he was playing like Joe Miller! Surprised to see Lawro last 80-odd minutes, not surprised to see Hansen sneak off after 20.

― TS: Mick Ralphs v. Ariel Bender (Dada), Thursday, 5 October 2006 10:28 (nineteen years ago)

... also well done to Kenny for putting more Celtic players than Liverpool players in his all-time 'Tic/'Pool 11!

― TS: Mick Ralphs v. Ariel Bender (Dada), Thursday, 5 October 2006 10:30 (nineteen years ago)

Darren Jackson seems better now than he was then!

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 5 October 2006 10:32 (nineteen years ago)

He wasn't playing 50 year olds then... unfortuantely

― TS: Mick Ralphs v. Ariel Bender (Dada), Thursday, 5 October 2006 10:36 (nineteen years ago)

Joe Miller's still playing, you know.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 5 October 2006 15:57 (nineteen years ago)

... what, has no-one told him the match is over?

― TS: Mick Ralphs v. Ariel Bender (Dada), Friday, 6 October 2006 10:28 (nineteen years ago)

if there's grass on the field, you can play

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 6 October 2006 10:34 (nineteen years ago)

Revive to crow at Celtic's demolition of the supposedly-mighty Benfica tonight. I say supposedly because before the match the duffers on the Real Radio phone-in were all "oh noes, Champions League semi-finalists, Celtic will be lucky to snatch a draw, Benfica are brilliant, Celtic are a bit pish, did we mention that Kenny Miller couldn't score in a brothel with a grand in used banknotes tied to his knob, etc etc". Two hours later, radio back on: "did we mention that Benfica aren't actually that good and they just fluked their way to the Champions League semis and only scored 4 goals getting there, look, Celtic only beat a diddy team really and it won't be easy to win over there" etc etc. Grrrrrrrrr.

Celtic were brilliant. And with a virtually-untried 19 year old running the midfield. Who needs Thomas Gravesen anyway?

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 17 October 2006 21:40 (nineteen years ago)

(it was so good that we missed all opportunities to laugh at Benfica's amusingly-named goalie. I also swear to God I saw Neil Lennon sprinting at one point. What an odd night.)

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 17 October 2006 21:43 (nineteen years ago)

Sno was fantastic! I'm so glad I missed the first half but decided to watch the second, there was fantastic passing - on both sides - Benfica had a really good spell soon into the second half, and I was in awe of their passing skills and fearful that they were going to take us apart, but then our passing got good to. Best second half I've watched in a long long time!

― Vicky (Vicky), Wednesday, 18 October 2006 08:22 (nineteen years ago)

Benfica reminded me of the Portuguese national side, NO FORWARDS. What about that second goal tho? Lethal breaking from defence and finishing, positively continental!

― Diddumsismus (Dada), Wednesday, 18 October 2006 08:26 (nineteen years ago)

That second goal was beautiful

― Vicky (Vicky), Wednesday, 18 October 2006 08:28 (nineteen years ago)

It was up there with the Lyon and Juventus games. I actually think Strachan's Celtic has looked more comfortable passing the ball around, retaining possession etc. than O'Neill's Celtic so far in the CL. Plaudits to Neil Lennon, strolled it last night.

Really looking forward to my trip to Lisbon now - if we can nick a win over there and Man U defeat Copenhagen we're through!

― JohnFoxxsJuno (JohnFoxxsJuno), Wednesday, 18 October 2006 10:44 (nineteen years ago)

Revive. Barca v Chelsea pt 4567. 1-0 to Barca. Comedy refereeing while I was in the other room seems to have resulted in Cashley Cole not being sent off after two yellow cards. Except that the first yellow might have been for Fat Frank. Who knows?

Liverpool v Bordeaux, 1-0 to Bordeaux.

I hope JFJ is having a nice time in Portugal.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 20:40 (nineteen years ago)

1-0 to bordeaux? are we watching the same game etc etc?

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 20:54 (nineteen years ago)

wow crazy chip by Lampard

― ;_; (blueski), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 20:54 (nineteen years ago)

Whoah, what a goal!

(xpost, sorry, Chris, not 1-0 to Bordeaux at all, I am talking pish)

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 20:56 (nineteen years ago)

i turned the tv on just as the ball was played to him (Drogba was offside but slipped back on as Lampard claimed the ball)

― ;_; (blueski), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 20:56 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I just watched the replay and was all "haha, just ignore the fact that Drogba is offside, shall we?" then remembered the rules have all changed again. First time round it was "haha, you fanny, totally fucked that up...OMG GOAL!!"

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 20:59 (nineteen years ago)

How is Ashley Cole still on the park? Booked for the second time after 35 minutes?

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:14 (nineteen years ago)

Confusion (see my earlier post). First card might have been for Lampard. Also, remember dude who got booked three times in the World Cup? Refs be stupid!

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:15 (nineteen years ago)

yeh the original yellow card was for Lampard

Tyldesley backtracking reluctantly a little just there after replays showed Marquez may not actually have meant to stamp on Essien

― ;_; (blueski), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:15 (nineteen years ago)

3-0 to Liverpool, do you think they might actually find their form and keep it this time?

― Vicky (Vicky), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:19 (nineteen years ago)

I watched the first half in the pub with no sound, mea culpa.

xpost re:Cashley

Also, the first thing when I got back was check threads, how sad id that?

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:20 (nineteen years ago)

how many times has Tyldesley mentioned "a certain night in Barcelona"? the fucking twunt.

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:27 (nineteen years ago)

2-2

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:35 (nineteen years ago)

Mourinho's goal celebration disgusts me.

― ;_; (blueski), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:36 (nineteen years ago)

why?

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:39 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, I thought Mourinho's goal celebration was one of the more awesome things about football this season.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:43 (nineteen years ago)

He seems to be overcompensating for never having been a player.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:44 (nineteen years ago)

would prefer him to gambol onto the pitch Pleat-style rather than get on his knees pouting and bellowing 'YEESSSSS' Alan Partridge style whilst shaking his fists violently. makes me feel quite ill.

― ;_; (blueski), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:47 (nineteen years ago)

God I enjoyed that.

― Pete W (peterw), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

a 2-2 draw between two of the best teams in europe should have been better than that. the first 15 minutes of the second half were very good, then the next half hour was scrappy, niggly, frustrating, stop-start. i enjoyed all 4 goals quite a lot, but they only highlighted what was missing for most of the game; these teams can play terrific football, but their first priority seemed to be just to piss each other off for long stretches.

i was pleased when chelsea equalised, i have to say; this was not like their previous late equaliser in barcelona - they were the better team on the night, and deserved at least a point. can we please have no chelsea barcalona next year though? it's getting a little tiresome.

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 23:07 (nineteen years ago)

i'd like to see Man U v Barcelona again altho perhaps it wouldn't be all that different really.

― ;_; (blueski), Tuesday, 31 October 2006 23:34 (nineteen years ago)

I thoroughly enjoyed that match, which perhaps means that I prefer seeing people try to piss each other off than silky flowing football, but for whatever the reason it was top entertainment.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 1 November 2006 09:01 (nineteen years ago)

The goals were excellent but the match as a whole was rotten. 22 men playing the ref and no-one thinking about playing football for about 70 minutes of the game. Moment of the match was Terry skelping the ball off Deco as he writhed in agony for the 127th time.

Clive on Frank's goal: "If it had been Ronaldinho no-one would ask if he meant it!"
How quickly he forgets
http://www.soccerline.co.kr/news/seaman_ronaldinho030608.jpg

― ONIMO's pet donkey jacket potato (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:07 (nineteen years ago)

Onimo OTM. I think I hate Mourinho more than I hate Adolf Hitler.

― Dadaismus (Takin' Funk to Heaven in '77) (Dada), Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:09 (nineteen years ago)

There was the perfect blend of both. Stamps on groins, JT booting the ball at Deco's head, Ronaldinho pouting and making Tyldesley ejaculate, comedy bookings, plus four cracking goals. It was like a proper derby with more poncing and in Europe.

It's very difficult to play Barca without the game getting a bit catty. Ask Arsenal.

― Pete W (peterw), Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:11 (nineteen years ago)

It's very difficult to play Barca without the game getting a bit catty

Ahem, Celtic managed it well enough

― Dadaismus (Takin' Funk to Heaven in '77) (Dada), Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:12 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't say it was impossible! Did you get a result? I honestly can't remember.

― Pete W (peterw), Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:16 (nineteen years ago)

Played 'em twice:

UEFA Cup 2003/4
Celtic 1-0 Barcelona
Barcelona 0-0 Celtic

Champions League 2004/5
Celtic 1-3 Barcelona
Barcelona 1-1 Celtic

... to be fair tho, Henrik was playing for Barcelona the second time round

― Dadaismus (Takin' Funk to Heaven in '77) (Dada), Wednesday, 1 November 2006 10:29 (nineteen years ago)

and Celtic were hard done by in that 3-1 defeat. loved Sutton's equaliser.

― ;_; (blueski), Wednesday, 1 November 2006 23:48 (nineteen years ago)

It's difficult to play Arsenal without Arsenal getting a bit catty. Unless you let them tippy tap all over the place, score seven goals and whatever you do, don't kick them at all.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 2 November 2006 09:24 (nineteen years ago)

Really looking forward to my trip to Lisbon now - if we can nick a win over there and Man U defeat Copenhagen we're through!

Oops :-/

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:18 (nineteen years ago)

Celtic should be OK as long as they don't lose to Utd.

― ;_; (blueski), Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:31 (nineteen years ago)

muahahaha

― ONIMO's losing the plot (GerryNemo), Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:31 (nineteen years ago)

Celtic's away record in CL group matches:

P11
W 0
D 1
L 10

So I don't think we can expect to much from the trip to Denmark.

― ONIMO's losing the plot (GerryNemo), Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:32 (nineteen years ago)

they will win in Copenhagen, esp. if it turns out to be not quite enough to stop Porto slipping through.

― ;_; (blueski), Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:36 (nineteen years ago)

Celtic should be OK as long as our entire midfield doesn't all go missing at the same time like they did last night.

Lots of people in the pub were wishing for Gravesen to come back. Did they not watch him against ManYoo the last time? I have no problem at all with the team Strachan put out last night, just the way they played. I heard several people grumbling about Evander Sno being too young and inexperienced for a game like this, did they not watch him against the same team at Celtic Park a fortnight ago? We've been known to carry an off-form midfielder on several occasions in the past, but not all of them at the same time! I have no doubt that on a different day that same team could have taken Benfica to bits.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:36 (nineteen years ago)

got Benfica mixed up with Porto back there. i think i might get away with it tho.

― ;_; (blueski), Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:39 (nineteen years ago)

And I'm getting sick to death of people blaming Paul Telfer for everything, I thought he was one of the few with passmarks last night, Lee Naylor too, though that Nelson lad was getting far too much space.

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 2 November 2006 11:41 (nineteen years ago)

Don't worry, someone on the radio got Porto mixed up with Portugal the other day.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 2 November 2006 12:13 (nineteen years ago)

It was Paul Telfer.

― ONIMO's losing the plot (GerryNemo), Thursday, 2 November 2006 12:14 (nineteen years ago)

What a trip, I'll need to get a few pictures up of the Estadio Nacional and the team training at it. Lisbon is a fantastic city, shame the game dampened the trip. I thought sno had a great game for a guy who is 19 he looked very comfortable at that level. First half pearson was running around without a clue, his positioning is awful. McGeady pretty good when he came on, but as a team we were rotten - Caldwell getting a lot of the blame at the stadium obv. but Boruc was poor for the 3 goals also. We really need Wilson and Vennegoor back for Man Utd.

― JohnFoxxsJuno (JohnFoxxsJuno), Friday, 3 November 2006 11:40 (nineteen years ago)

v surprised and impressed by all the British UEFA Cup team performances last night

― banrique (blueski), Friday, 3 November 2006 11:42 (nineteen years ago)

Tottenham looked very nice indeed last night. I don't know what it is about the Premiership that puts Dimitar Berbatov so far off the pace but he's proving a great European player and was fantastic last night.

Also, Bosko Balaban!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 3 November 2006 11:42 (nineteen years ago)

I have no problem at all with the team Strachan put out last night, just the way they played

So why was Pearson playing? And why was he playing further forward than Maloney? There was a touch of Artmedia about this game, Strachan just did not have a clue what to do as the game progressed.

― Dadaismus (Takin' Funk to Heaven in '77) (Dada), Friday, 3 November 2006 11:45 (nineteen years ago)

why do people insist on calling them CLUB Brugge?

― banrique (blueski), Friday, 3 November 2006 11:46 (nineteen years ago)

Er, because that's what they call themselves?

― Tim (Tim), Friday, 3 November 2006 11:47 (nineteen years ago)

Explain who you'd have in in place of Pearson? Selfish bastard Aiden McGreedy? I like Pearson, on other days he'd have aced that match, but, yes, he (along with the rest of the midfield) was having a stinker. As the game went on, yes, it bore more than a passing resemblence to Artmedia Mk II, and that's where I have the problem but on paper that was a perfectly good team that could have done better. Which is why I said I don't have a problem with the team selected, just the performance from most of them.

(yes, yes, I know you don't win games on paper, etc, but as a team, those players were capable of winning that match. When it all went to cock, then, yes, something should have been done. But what? Not my job, I'm afraid, that's what we pay Gogs for. But a team playing with Pearson, Lennon, Nakamura, Maloney and Sno in midfield shouldn't be losing control of the midfield and resorting to the full-backs humping the ball forward to Kenny Miller)

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 3 November 2006 14:01 (nineteen years ago)

two weeks pass...

Predictions for tonight from the ILX-Celtic mob? I'm going for a 1-1 draw.

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 14:39 (eighteen years ago)

1-2 I suspect, though I am being intentionally pessimistic as I'll be watching it with one of said ILX-Celtic mob and I am using reverse fate-tempting psychology :)

― === temporary username === (Mark C), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 14:47 (eighteen years ago)

5-0 and injuries to Giggs, Rooney and Ronaldo please thank you very much Tims. Remember, if it moves, kick it.

― Pete W (peterw), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

This sort of thing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOU32D6aeWE

― Pete W (peterw), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 15:11 (eighteen years ago)

Clive T - shut the fuck up with your idiotic fawning over Celtic's support. This is becoming more embarrassing / annoying than Drury's wankfest over Arsenal beating Real Madrid last season. We get ten minutes of silence followed by ten seconds of 'they're a grand old team to play for...' and then the commentator going "oh my god! what a cauldron of noise! best....support...evah! christ i've gone deaf" and then silence again.

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:15 (eighteen years ago)

What a strike.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:24 (eighteen years ago)

Did saha just stop playing there thinking he's offside?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:26 (eighteen years ago)

Dodgy penalty.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

yeeeeeeeeesssssss

dear premiership referees - please try and wind up Gary Neville more - it's bleeding hilarious

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

Never fancied Saha to score that.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

true that - the noise (cliche alert) was incredible. I spent most of the second half on thephone, what's with Jarosik's mouth?

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:33 (eighteen years ago)

He got caught with an elbow.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:34 (eighteen years ago)

Ruud van Nistelrooy apparently missed a penalty for Madrid in the last minutes too.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

saha sidelined for the next six months i guess

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:40 (eighteen years ago)

Good grief. I don't know how United managed to lose that. I was thinking it was one of the most one-sided nil-nils I'd seen (albeit with scarcely a shot) and then suddenly it wasn't. Saha - yeah, he thought he was offside, Jarosik - Heinze elbow in the mouth, penalty - yeah, you just knew he wouldn't score. Great free-kick for Celtic.

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:41 (eighteen years ago)

Even the commentators up here can't believe Utd lost that. Still don't think that was a penalty. But Man Utd just couldn't deliver a final killer pass or finish. To be fair to Celtic, Utd never did look like scoring. Ronaldo was clearly the best player on the park.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:44 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, Ronaldo was great. You have different commentators in Scotland?

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:48 (eighteen years ago)

We had Archie McHairdo and Andy Walker. With expert analysis from Gerry McNee and John Collins

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:53 (eighteen years ago)

There's going to be a couple of ilxors very hungover tomorrow.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 21:53 (eighteen years ago)

It would seem that Celtic are actually through to the next stages. They're ahead of Man Utd on the fact they scored 2 goals at Old Trafford.
No one on STV seemed to notice but the bbc website and sky sports are reporting it. I wonder if any celtic fans at the game know.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:09 (eighteen years ago)

They were quick to point that out south of the border.

There's going to be a couple of ilxors very hungover tomorrow

Ned Raggett and Lex?

Just remembered another bit of Tydesly gibberish - something like 'in all his twenty years in charge at United there can have been no more bitter blow for sir alex ferguson (TM) than failing to qualify for the knockout stages of the champions league (TM) last season.' Is he completely insane or does his memory only last for twelve months?

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:13 (eighteen years ago)

I notice Mr Tyldesley didn't mention "that great night in Barcelona" too much tonight. I hate the twat, only slightly less than I hate Andy Gray.

― Porkpie (porkpie), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:17 (eighteen years ago)

Are there any commentators that are bearable?
I hate Gerry McNee so much so at least we don't get him during a match now. Archie is bearable because he isn't McNee. That's about it.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:28 (eighteen years ago)

It looked like the Celtic goalie sold Saha a dummy on that pen.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:32 (eighteen years ago)

Which is ironic considering Saha played like a dummy the whole night!

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 22:36 (eighteen years ago)

best league in th... oh you get it by now.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:18 (eighteen years ago)

I wonder if any celtic fans at the game know.

Aye one or 50000 or so of us worked that out...

Pish first half. Strachan sent out a negative line up (Sno, Gravesen and Lennon in the same team midfield never work) and let Utd play - got the subs spot on though and we actually decided to give them a game 2nd half. Dodgiest penalty ever, ref was a cunt, Boruc was brilliant. Man U fanny danglers with no killer pass - for all the possesion they created very little . Should have had a pen for elbow on Jarosik. Wonder strike yet again from Naka who's showing over and over what a big game player he is.

Last 16 with a game to spare. Whodathunkit?

Hugh Keevins = top class fanny on Clyde yet again. If he keeps predicting Celtic defeats we'll go and win this :-P

― ONIMO feels teh NOIZE (GerryNemo), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:36 (eighteen years ago)

I hate Hugh Keevins more than ANYONE in the scottish media. Even more than Gerry.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy (Kerr), Tuesday, 21 November 2006 23:51 (eighteen years ago)

Just watching the highlights at the moment, and I don't think for a second Saha thought he was offside, I seriously think he tried showboating with a chip over Boruc and he totally arsed it up. Watch him. He hangs on until Boruc commits himself, and he tries to flick it over him.

(Gerry, it was Maloney, btw, we are both stupid and blind, haha, though at least we were paying attention to the group standings and know that we went through to the second stage, oh, hang on, everyone knew that - except apparently ITV despite the fact I just watching them telling Neil Lennon straight after the match)

I concur wholly with everything Onimo said there, and would like to add that when we got back to the pub, the highlights of Lille v Anderlecht looked awesome too.

Who are these lucky drunken ILXors that don't have work tomorrow then?

― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:02 (eighteen years ago)

"second stage" - what am I talking about, I knew I shouldn't have had that second pint...knockout stage, last 16, whatever. History in the making, first time Celtic have ever done it ~~except for when we won the fucking thing, history re-writers be damned~~

― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:04 (eighteen years ago)

Even more than Gerry.

Me? What?

― ONIMO feels teh NOIZE (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:15 (eighteen years ago)

But Man Utd just couldn't deliver a final killer pass or finish. ... Ronaldo was clearly the best player on the park.

Er, isn't the final killer pass/finish what Ronaldo is paid stupid amounts of money to do? Otherwise he's just a fanny-dangling show-off...oh, yeah.

Hugh Keevins had mysteriously disappeared from the Radio Clyde studios by the time we got back to the car. Shame, I was looking forward to hearing him justify his pre-match burble about how Boruc was shite and would cost us the game, Celtic could play forever and never ever get close to the majesty of a real team like Man Utd, etc, etc (see every other fucking time someone puts a microphone near his mouth/pen in his hand). Has he looked at Celtic's home record in the Champions League? Has he looked at Man Utd's away form? Is he a great big fanny? (the answer to ONE of these questions is YES. Can you guess which one?)

― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 00:53 (eighteen years ago)

"If you can't hit the target from there, you want tekking out and bloody shooting!"

I wonder what will happen to Lil' Louis? I wonder if he will receive his manager's backing. He probably already has. In the olden days I suppose it would have been a month in the reserves.

I am glad Celtic are through, really.

Celtic scored at the exact same moment as Stafford Rangers, or at least something happened to make everyone shout.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 08:22 (eighteen years ago)

Did anyone else see the fireworks go off over in Rutherglen on the final whistle?

I'll be tuning into Clyde tonight to see if Shug is going to raise his head above the parapet, the wee FUD!

― JohnFoxxsJuno (JohnFoxxsJuno), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 09:38 (eighteen years ago)

Er, isn't the final killer pass/finish what Ronaldo is paid stupid amounts of money to do? Otherwise he's just a fanny-dangling show-off...oh, yeah.

I don't think you can blame Ronaldo at all - he supplied several 'killer passes' last night (often at the end of amazing runs) only for Giggs and Saha to miscontrol / stand still at the crucial moment.

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 10:42 (eighteen years ago)

united to sign Nakamura

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

Good result, but disappointing lack of serious/long-term injuries. Celtic could at least have put the keeper in hospital - you don't even get a booking for that these days.

― Pete W (peterw), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

also: has ronaldo officially given up on trying to score freekicks but instead use it as some way of hurting the opposition by blasting the ball at the wall as hard as he can?

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

I liked Strachan's tactic of "don't bother trying to get the ball off Ronaldo, he'll eventually give it to someone else or get bored" - worked a treat.

― ONIMO feels teh NOIZE (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 10:47 (eighteen years ago)

xxpost one guy had a pretty good effort on scholes' ankle!

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 10:48 (eighteen years ago)

fwiw I think Scholes was their best player, his passing and vision from the middle of the park is exceptional (despite his eyes not working!).

― ONIMO feels teh NOIZE (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 10:49 (eighteen years ago)

xxpost - yeah, good effort, poor execution.

― Pete W (peterw), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 10:50 (eighteen years ago)

Neville 'predicted Saha's miss'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6172290.stm

(ALONG WITH THE REST OF HUMANITY)

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 11:32 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, it did seem far and away the likeliest outcome. Commentator lkost his tenses after the event "Rooney has to take it"

― Matt (Matt), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 11:33 (eighteen years ago)

why the fuck does Rooney never take penatlies? i'm not sure i've ever seen him take one.

― 2 american 4 u (blueski), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 11:34 (eighteen years ago)

Just out of interest, how many penalties has Saha scored this season?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 11:36 (eighteen years ago)

Saha didn't miss. The keeper saved it.

― ONIMO feels teh NOIZE (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 12:00 (eighteen years ago)

He's scored two penalties this season, one against Celtic at Old Trafford (never a penalty!) and one against Portsmouth. I don't know if he's missed any others.

― ONIMO feels teh NOIZE (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 12:02 (eighteen years ago)

I love these:

http://gickr.com/results/anim_fa63b407-49c9-9964-19e6-b9aecb244cdd.gif

http://gickr.com/results/anim_e0e93564-f49e-2154-75a4-5926952d3a79.gif

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

As soon as I saw that man swearing with such vigour last night, I hoped there would be a gif in existence by the morning. Rarely are dreams fulfilled in this way.

― AJ (o1000ir), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

totally!!! that was my favourite moment of that whole game

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 16:14 (eighteen years ago)

i'd quite like to see Man U or Arsenal in the UEFA cup, just for the change. pleased that Celtic have made it thru to CL last 16 tho.

― 2 american 4 u (blueski), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

I know Copenhagen aren't a great side, but Benfica looked very good last night I thought.

Dare I dream they beat Man U at Old Trafford???

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 16:27 (eighteen years ago)

it's gonna be a cagey humdinger ala Man U vs Bayern '99 (the group game not the final...altho that may also work)

― 2 american 4 u (blueski), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

benfica will be a goal up at half time and then all pretend to have suddenly caught cancer or something to waste time for the whole of second half like last year

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

United will dominate the first half with Scholes having a perfectly good goal wrongly disallowed for offside. In the second half the game will fizzle out somewhat with United still being marginally the better team, but with neither side creating any clearcut chances. With five minutes left a sloppy defensive error by Rio Ferdinand will allow Benfica their first shot on goal of the game - it will go narrowly wide, and the commentator will say "...and there's a warning for United, that despite all their superiority the score is still 0-0 and their European season still hangs in the balance". In the 89th minute Scholes will hit a 30-yard volley which smacks the underside of the crossbar, bounces down just in front of the line and up into the grateful hands of the goalkeeper. The commentator will say "well, that's two goals he should have had tonight, but, fortunatley for United, it doesn't look like it's going to matter". In the third minute of injury time Benfica will be awarded a dodgy free-kick on the corner of the 18-yard box. The ball will fly into the top corner of the net and the Benfica players and coaching staff will go crazy. The referee will blow for full-time about five seconds after he eventually manages to re-start the match.

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

2 points!

― Sue Barker (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:08 (eighteen years ago)

...and there's a warning for United...reminiscent of that night in Barcelona, that despite all their superiority - much like that night in Barcelona - the score is still 0-0 - as it was in Barcelona that one night for the first 6 minutes - and their European season still hangs in the balance, as it did until those final few minutes on that glorious night in Barcelona all those years ago.

― 2 american 4 u (blueski), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:09 (eighteen years ago)

I forgot to change my email to sue@hanging_off_allys.nob there :(

― ONIMO feels teh NOIZE (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:12 (eighteen years ago)

OMG that is totally what happened during my game of pro evo with my flatmate the other night. damn this game is realistic.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 17:32 (eighteen years ago)

I agree with Onimo about Scholes. Also with admiration of "don't bother trying to get the ball off Ronaldo, he'll eventually give it to someone else or get bored" tactics, though I feel some other comedy genius may have said that already :-)

Did anyone else see the fireworks go off over in Rutherglen on the final whistle?

No, all I saw was the two blokes on either side of me jumping on top of me and blocking my view of everything. Random hugs and kisses and getting shoved about four seats to either side at any given moment...do I have to go back to my own seat next week?

You in the North or West stand then JFJ? (fear my powers of geography and logic!)

― ailsa (ailsa), Wednesday, 22 November 2006 19:58 (eighteen years ago)

Did you have a flag, Ailsa?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 23 November 2006 09:05 (eighteen years ago)

injuries to Giggs, Rooney and Ronaldo please thank you very much Tims. Remember, if it moves, kick it.

Chelsea last night suffered injury scares, with Didier Drogba and Michael Ballack forced off four days before their crucial game at Manchester United.

Boy, is my face red.

― Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 23 November 2006 09:14 (eighteen years ago)

Could be worse, you could be a Liverpool fan.

That Barcelona v Werder Bremen fixture just got really exciting. Although I'm considering a punt on Lyon to win the thing now.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 23 November 2006 09:18 (eighteen years ago)

Come on, we all know Liverpool now ARE going to win the CL this year!

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 23 November 2006 09:51 (eighteen years ago)

Nah, you've qualified too easily.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 23 November 2006 10:03 (eighteen years ago)

Our league form is even poorer though....

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 23 November 2006 10:06 (eighteen years ago)

By that logic, if it hadn't been for that unfortunate game against West Ham, Spurs would be odds-on favourites to WIN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE! HOORAY!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 23 November 2006 10:08 (eighteen years ago)

I did not have a flag. I didn't even have a scarf. I'm not very given to public displays of Celtic supporterness. I'm there, it's obvious who I support.

(exception to this = in Seville and surrounding areas around the UEFA Cup Final when Celtic scarf = free drink)

― ailsa (ailsa), Thursday, 23 November 2006 18:19 (eighteen years ago)

one month passes...

Spurs fans rejoice!

Feyenoord kicked out of the UEFA Cup, so do we get a bye?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 19 January 2007 17:34 (eighteen years ago)

it appears so

i think i'd make them play Wisla Krakow myself.

― vita susicivus (blueski), Thursday, 25 January 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

four weeks pass...

I'm starting to wonder whether or not this thread title might be wrong after all.

CONGRATULATIONS TO LIVERPOOL FC AND ALL THEIR SUPPORTERS ON A TREMENDOUS ACHIEVEMENT.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 22 February 2007 11:10 (eighteen years ago)

Momo was brilliant last night. Though if Liverpool could pass the ball around a bit more they could have had 3 or 4 goals.

― Ronan, Thursday, 22 February 2007 11:20 (eighteen years ago)

A bit of post-karaoke horseplay with golf clubs is clearly all that's needed to foster team spirit. When I heard that Riise had scored I just knew who'd got the first one.

I think Liverpool will lose the home leg 0-2 a la Benfica.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 22 February 2007 19:52 (eighteen years ago)

I think that has to be the worst goal celebration of all time. I was going to say "since..." but I couldn't think of any, excpet that line-sniffing incident, and that was quite witty, as is the hoodie.

It is not that unusual to win at Barcelona.

Well, statistically it might be. I don't know.

― PJ Miller, Friday, 23 February 2007 09:47 (eighteen years ago)

... Dundee United did it 20 years before Liverpool

― Tom D., Friday, 23 February 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

Funny how the Boyle never crops up with one of his pithy 'maybe we're not as good as we think are' lines after a Prem side has pulled off a result in Europe?

― Pete W, Friday, 23 February 2007 11:09 (eighteen years ago)

hey we're all in Europe now :)

― blueski, Friday, 23 February 2007 11:10 (eighteen years ago)

DEAREST ITV

PLEASE DELIVER 1x TYLDESLEY KILLFILE.

THANK YOU

STEVIE T

― Stevie T, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 20:34 (eighteen years ago)

Chelsea goin out...

― blueski, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

Barca only need to play well for about 30 out of 90 mins to win a match it seems.

― blueski, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 21:18 (eighteen years ago)

gawd this is pretty fucking nerve-wracking. only with Barca do i get this fear.

― blueski, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 21:29 (eighteen years ago)

I had to turn the sound off for the last 20 minutes of that.

But great game, LFC. Barcelona went in to the 90 mins needing 2 goals and looked completely toothless for 80 of them.

― Stevie T, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 21:40 (eighteen years ago)

no kidding, dude, the last 15 minutes were the best of the game.

gudjohnsen was a good sub, huh

― gbx, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 21:40 (eighteen years ago)

jaysus the edge. Didn't enjoy that too much, but second game running where we lose 1-0 and still play well.

Did that manc twat Tyldesley mention "that magic night in Barcelona" at all? He usually manages to bring it up whenever possible, I really hate him with a passion. Pleat not far behind either. Should have watched with the sound off.

Jamie Carragher though? Fucking colossus

― Porkpie, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)

On Saturday I said to Mrs Stevie T "O'Shea will score". Today I said "Gudjohnson will score". I should place more bets.

― Stevie T, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)

That was v.exciting.

― Alba, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 21:46 (eighteen years ago)

was just thinking about the game and the season as a whole - possibly our player of the season will be Steve Finnan - he's so consistent and some of his interceptions were timed to perfection

― Porkpie, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 22:25 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah Finnan was awesome tonight, even when he lost the ball he managed to recover it perfectly and cleaned up on so many occasions. Taking Bellamy off for Pennant could've been a Ranieri-esque clunker but luckily you got away with it.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 22:42 (eighteen years ago)

Meanwhile, Lyon crumble inexplicably. Great game for Roma, though.

― baaderonixx, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 22:54 (eighteen years ago)

I really thought Barce would do it - they even looked a bit like Arsenal '89. But two last-minute goals for the opposition at Anfield in the space of four days was a bit much to expect.

On a tape somewhere in the Radio City archives there's a recording of a young, breathless Tyldesley commentating on That Night In Rome, 1977. Y'see, having grown up with Clive T as my main radio man, I've heard him gush over Dalglish, Rush and McDermott far too many times to perceive any anti-Liverpool sentiment. He is faintly insufferable thesedays, I'll grant you that - when he goes on about That Night In Barcelona you get the sense he's just celebrating himself and his part in proceedings as much as the Mighty Red Devils. See also "Remember The Name". I'm sure I've heard him drop his Istanbul callsign "Maybe, Just Maybe" into a commentary.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 00:18 (eighteen years ago)

I seem to recall D Pleat saying something about how despite being unable to pass, Momo Sissoko's like a useful brutal savage enforcer type "alongside the more cultured Gerrard and Alonso", the daft fuck

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 09:23 (eighteen years ago)

yeah I heard that, I guess "naive on the ball" or something would have been a step too far.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 10:30 (eighteen years ago)

It's well known that Gerrard and Alonso sit at the back of the Liverpool team bus exchanging Wildean quips.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

he could've just said 'Sissoko is shit'

― blueski, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 10:56 (eighteen years ago)

Clive T managed to give us a quick run through of the current requirements for Arse, ManU, Pool and Chelsk while completely ignoring Celtic. Cunt.

I hate this Abramovic obsession. ITV, BBC and Sky all have a permanent camera on him at every single match. I don't give a fuck how a chairman/owner reacts to a goal. My first thought on Celtic's win over Man U wasn't "I wonder what Dermot Desmond thinks of that!"

I'm bricking it today. Celtic are rank outsiders, some bookies offering 10/1 on a Celtic win (on that like a shot - best price on Celtic I can ever remember). Lambs to the slaughter and all that, but maybe, just maybe...

― onimo, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:05 (eighteen years ago)

I hope United thrash Lille tonight to pay them back for their cuntish police, missile-throwing supporters, sulky-walking-off players, and insane management who are still launching appeal after appeal about Giggs' quick free-kick. Probably won't, though.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:10 (eighteen years ago)

10/1 in a two horse race??? blimey, just on the win? or to win in 90 minutes?

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:11 (eighteen years ago)

In 90 minutes. Best odds have Milan at 2/5.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:18 (eighteen years ago)

It only occurred to me last night that Manchester United might genuinely, realistically win the treble again this season.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:18 (eighteen years ago)

I liked Tyldesleys bit about how Ronaldinho *used* a push in the back to his own advantage to run through on goal, probably also using some word like MAGICIAN before inexplicably declaring "he's suddenly the best player on the pitch by FAR!"

Where do they find these people? It's like how Motson always sounds in the throes of orgasm whenever Rooney even deems to touch the ball with a merest toe.

― Suedey, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:41 (eighteen years ago)

OTM

"It's ROONEEEYYYYYYYY! Ah... didn't quite connect there did he? Ahem..."

― onimo, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:43 (eighteen years ago)

some bookies offering 10/1 on a Celtic win

Those odds are ridiculous, I wasn't impressed by Milan in the first leg

― Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:46 (eighteen years ago)

I was, apart from their finishing. They were mesmerising in midfield. My seat's up in the rafters and I got a great overview of the work they put in. We kept counting them as we were sure they had about 4 more players than us.

― onimo, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:48 (eighteen years ago)

4 more players and still couldn't score, we've been here before with Celtic in Europe haven't we?

― Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:49 (eighteen years ago)

... not that I expect Celtic to get a result of course!

― Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:50 (eighteen years ago)

1-1 tonight, Celtic to go through. Arsenal to win 2-1 and go out on away goals. ManYoo to romp through, about 4-0. Bayern M to win 3-1 (5-4).

Liverpool-Man Utd quarter-final - L'pool go 2-0 up in Anfield first-leg, eventually pegged back for a 3-3 draw (Ronaldo equaliser in fronr of the Kop, ill-advised celebrations ensue). Utd win dour Old Trafford rematch with late Neville double(!)

Celtic lose to Valencia on pens after a pair of 1-1 draws. PSV beat Chelsea in extra time at Stamford Bridge (2-1h, 2-2a). Bayern M beat Roma home and away.

Man Utd beat Valencia 3-1, 0-0. PSV beat Bayern M 3-0, 0-2.

PSV beat Man Utd in the final 3-1 (2-0 up after six minutes).

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:25 (eighteen years ago)

Ha, that's spot on! Spot. on. I love the backtracking the commentators do, didn't quite come off, but he was nearly through there, believe you me, he nearly lit up the park! Like Ronaldinho who, lest we forget with all his brilliance, still didn't fuckin' score did he? Or indeed, do much for the rest of the game.

There's something about how commentators get so much more excited by these more exotic flair players that perhaps they don't get to see so much, it makes me wonder if it's symptomatic of all this shit about how English players are supposedly no good technically, or on the ball, or all that guff that everyone keeps banging on about... I thought Gerrard looked great on the ball last night, for the most part.

Although I worry that, despite playing fantastically well in their last two games - and that the last one is technically a good result - Liverpool have still actually lost them both 1-0 by not scoring any goals to match their play.

― Suedey, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:38 (eighteen years ago)

are PSV really that good Mike?

― blueski, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:42 (eighteen years ago)

I have absolutely no idea, blueski. I just like the initials.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

Celtic lose to Valencia on pens

Oh noes scary flashback. Joos Valgaeren got two attempts at his pen against them in the 01-02 UEFA Cup and missed them both!

― onimo, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 15:02 (eighteen years ago)

... I watched that game in a dingy bar in New York on Thanksgiving Day

― Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

It only occurred to me last night that Manchester United might genuinely, realistically win the treble again this season.

quadruple! don't forget the FA Youth Cup.

although Arsenal youth team will probably assfuck Man U's next wednesday.

― ken c, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 15:53 (eighteen years ago)

favourite commentator thing at the liverpool game last night, was something about "well, that was good idea. it would have been an EXCELLENT idea if the pass was better"

yes, better excution of a merely above average idea would turn the same idea into a better idea, indeed.

― ken c, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 15:59 (eighteen years ago)

I hate how he said Catalunya instead of Catalonia - we speak English, Catalonia is what we call Catalunya

― Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:13 (eighteen years ago)

haha yeah, it's almost like he was being a smug couple with catalonia.

― ken c, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:07 (eighteen years ago)

Come on, Celtic and all that - but 32-5 to Milan in goal attempts? Are Celtic getting battered? 119th-minute dodgy pen equaliser would be v funny.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 22:04 (eighteen years ago)

bah

― blueski, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:15 (eighteen years ago)

Michael, I like your scenario ;) As a Dutchman, and supporter of PSV, I'm obviously ecstatic about them going through. Ofcourse, with the 1-0 home win, they had only one assignment: make a goal. And Alex... Saint Alex... he's a phenomenon. Unfortunately, Mourinho watched this match also I presume, so Alex - who is property of Chelsea - will be playing on Stamford Bridge next season I fear.

But I must say that - Arsenal being my favourite English team, *potentially* one of the best playing teams in the world - the Gunners dissapointed me greatly. In both matches, and all season really. What happened to their self-confidence? To believing in their own qualities? I mean, even with Henry starting on the bench, they could do so much better than this. They've got the players, the skills, the grandeur. They *could* be the Ajax of the early Seventies. But potence isn't reality, so it shows again. I can't understand why they are playing so poorly recently, with all those great players.

― Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:23 (eighteen years ago)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42653000/jpg/_42653943_fred203.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:31 (eighteen years ago)

BOLLOCKS!

― onimo, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:58 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.psv.nl/upload/142819_661_1173305027501-0607-ARSPSV4684.jpg

― Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, 8 March 2007 00:00 (eighteen years ago)

― Matt DC, Thursday, 8 March 2007 09:03 (eighteen years ago)

Can someone please photoshop I AM SERIOUS FRED asap?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 8 March 2007 09:26 (eighteen years ago)

32-5 to Milan in goal attempts?

Aye right, if aimlessly blootering the ball 30 yards wide of the post constitutes a goal attempt. I don't know why we're surprised that:

a) You don't get penalties at the San Siro
b) You're not allowed to LOOK at Kaka, let alone tackle him

― Tom D., Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:50 (eighteen years ago)

Lucky they didn't try, then

― Mark C, Thursday, 8 March 2007 14:15 (eighteen years ago)

b) You're not allowed to LOOK at Kaka, let alone tackle him

McManus should have LOOKED at Kaka 20 yards further out in the lead up to the goal.

― onimo, Thursday, 8 March 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

interesting how alex has singlehandedly strengthened abramovich & arnesen's hand vs mourinho - if that's the level of player jose's having foisted onto him while he's throwing hissyfits for not getting bleeding milan baros on loan then you have to say he looks a right spiteful twat.

even if it has just been the one performance, terry & alex together next season looks v tasty indeed huh?

― r|t|c, Thursday, 8 March 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

That Braga stadium was the weirdest thing ever - like watching a game of football taking place in a cave.

Thanks for that Spurs, but I'm bored of multiple-goal thrillers with last-gasp winners now. I expect you to calmly beat Chelsea 2-0 now.

What's the betting Newcastle fuck this up?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 8 March 2007 23:42 (eighteen years ago)

My throat is hoarse and my nerves are still jangling. But if you'd offered me 3-2...

I think I might throw a few quid on AZ Alkmaar to go through, actually. They didn't seem to notice that Newcastle are rubbish.

furthermore, poor show from Sevilla, I was underwhelmed, and after Bremen and PSG did the hard work a fiver down also. La Liga is for shit

― Matt, Friday, 9 March 2007 00:03 (eighteen years ago)

but I'm bored of multiple-goal thrillers with last-gasp winners now.

blummin' ingrates

― blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 01:20 (eighteen years ago)

i thought spurs were ok tonight, apart from that lazy twenty minutes in the second half, and tbh with a more impartial ref neither of the two braga goals would have been scored.

why is gardner still a footballer, anyone?

― darraghmac, Friday, 9 March 2007 04:09 (eighteen years ago)

The took his allotment away.

(I'm here all week, thangyewverymuch).

― Michael Jones, Friday, 9 March 2007 07:34 (eighteen years ago)

(But I can't type properly at 7:30 in the morning)

― Michael Jones, Friday, 9 March 2007 09:24 (eighteen years ago)

That Braga stadium was the weirdest thing ever - like watching a game of football taking place in a cave.

Yeah, was there some sort of moss-covered cliff face behind the one goal, or is my TV reception really shit?

5's coverage is definitely shit, I can't take much more of John Holm and Joe Royle being all "Titus Bramble's had some stick over the years, but he's proven now that he's an England candidate bestriding Newcastle's back four like a collossus".

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Friday, 9 March 2007 09:26 (eighteen years ago)

Behind both goals, I think. The entire stadium was CHISELLED OUT OF THE SIDE OF A MOUNTAIN. Reports that managers who fail to please the Chairman are dropped into a pit of ravenous sharks were unconfirmed at the time of going to press.

― Matt DC, Friday, 9 March 2007 09:46 (eighteen years ago)

Why were Holm and Royle pronouncing AZ as AH-ZED? Do they pronounce PSV, PAY-ESS-VAY?

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 09:58 (eighteen years ago)

I pronounce it PowerSexViolence.

― Michael Jones, Friday, 9 March 2007 10:03 (eighteen years ago)

wasn't this Braga ground one of the euro 2004 venues? i think Denmark played Bulgaria there amongst other fixtures.

― blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 10:04 (eighteen years ago)

McManus should have LOOKED at Kaka 20 yards further out in the lead up to the goal.

... and Lennon should have crippled him 20 yards before that.

I reckon Newcastle have blown it, conceding that 2nd goal.

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 10:06 (eighteen years ago)

I also suspect "Waregem" may not actually be pronounced Varra Goom.

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Friday, 9 March 2007 10:11 (eighteen years ago)

... send for the pronunciation police, much as I hate football commentators exaggeratedly using foreign pronunciations when it isn't actually necessary, it's preferable to Graham Taylor and Jew-ventus et al

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 10:15 (eighteen years ago)

I like when Jonathan Pearce does it, he makes a little coughing noise in the middle of "Angel" and everything.

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Friday, 9 March 2007 10:19 (eighteen years ago)

How come they say AH-Zed but not BarTHelona? Is it because one sounds silly and the other doesn't it?

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 10:22 (eighteen years ago)

you've got it

― blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 10:22 (eighteen years ago)

too bad 'Mee-lan' never caught on here

― blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 10:23 (eighteen years ago)

Yes!

― Stevie T, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:20 (eighteen years ago)

liverpool go to PSV

― Ste, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:23 (eighteen years ago)

Oh yes, using an Italian pronunciation of an English word, why? Not as daft as Raseeeeeeeng Clooooooob for Racing Club tho I suppose...

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 11:23 (eighteen years ago)

Another possible LFC semi vs Chelsea. :(

― Stevie T, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:23 (eighteen years ago)

Meeeeeelan did catch on, at least with SoccerAM fans and presenters.

Cracking goal from Hemdani to keep Rangers' hopes alive despite them being absolutely pish. Ian McCall in commentary: "I wouldn't say they've outplayed Rangers but they've definitely dominated 80 minutes of the game" - this after 87 minutes!

― onimo, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:24 (eighteen years ago)

That is 1x boring draw, except AC Milan v Bayern Munich which is a humdinger.

If Bayern get through that one they might be my tip to win the whole thing.

― Matt DC, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:29 (eighteen years ago)

Ay-Say Milano v Bavaria Munchen
Pay-Ess-Vay Eindhoven v LIVERPOOL
Rome v MANCHESTER UNITED
CHELSEA v ValenTHia

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 11:34 (eighteen years ago)

They're Milan, not Milano! That's why it's pronounced Meelan!

And why no Ah Esse Roma, huh?

― Mark C, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:36 (eighteen years ago)

I predict
Meeelan vs Manyoo
and
Chelsea vs PSV semis

then
Manyoo vs PSV final

with Manyoo winning an Historic Triple. Again.

I also predict 143 uses of the phrase "squeaky bum time" in the sports pages in the next 8 weeks.

― onimo, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:37 (eighteen years ago)

Googlenews says it's started already

Results 1 - 10 of about 36 for squeaky-bum-time. (0.12 seconds)

― onimo, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:38 (eighteen years ago)

Oh I like this little snippet from the Guardian:

the German equivalent of "squeaky-bum time" is Wenn es um die Wurst geht. Going for the sausage.

― onimo, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:40 (eighteen years ago)

They're Milan, not Milano! That's why it's pronounced Meelan!

They're called Milan and not Milano, because they were formed by an Englishman - so kind of daft for English speakers not to use the traditional English pronunciation, no?

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 11:42 (eighteen years ago)

I dreamt that Bayern played Man U in the quarters (or semis perhaps) and beat them 3-2 at Old Trafford.

― blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:47 (eighteen years ago)

Ay-Say Milano

It wouldn't be 'Ay-Say' either, it would be 'Ah-Chee', but nobody in Italy uses the A.C. bit anyway.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:17 (eighteen years ago)

They're Milan, not Milano! That's why it's pronounced Meelan!

They're called Milan and not Milano, because they were formed by an Englishman - so kind of daft for English speakers not to use the traditional English pronunciation, no?

Yes, makes sense (although calling them just Milan could confuse people cos of Inter) - but you called them Milano in your previous post which was THE TERRIBLE CRIME.

― Mark C, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:29 (eighteen years ago)

... I also called Bayern Munich, Bavaria Munchen - it's a pisstake, do you see?

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 12:32 (eighteen years ago)

although calling them just Milan could confuse people cos of Inter

... only if you're confused by Manchester United/ Manchester City, Dundee/Dundee Utd etc

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 12:33 (eighteen years ago)

....Rangers of Glasgow / The Glasgow Celts...

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:35 (eighteen years ago)

I am confused when people start speaking about Manchester football team, yes

― Mark C, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:38 (eighteen years ago)

...AFC Dons / MK Wimbledon...

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:41 (eighteen years ago)

AFC Dons = Aberdeen, right?

― Mark C, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:42 (eighteen years ago)

I thought it was AC Milan and Inter, and calling the club Inter Milan is like Everton Liverpool.

― The Wayward Johnny B, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:22 (eighteen years ago)

It's Milan and Inter

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 13:28 (eighteen years ago)

It's Milan and Inter, and the city is Milano, so saying AC Milan and Inter Milan is a bit like saying Liverpudlium FC and Everton Liverpudlium. Or something.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

I wonder if Sporting, Racing, Atletico and Deportivo should be dropped, by the same token.

― blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:35 (eighteen years ago)

so saying AC Milan and Inter Milan is a bit like saying Liverpudlium FC and Everton Liverpudlium. Or something.

Or Glasgow Rangers and Glasgow Celtic

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 13:40 (eighteen years ago)

I wonder if Sporting, Racing, Atletico and Deportivo should be dropped, by the same token

Good question. I would imagine Sporting Lisbon are just called Sporting in Portugal, and that it's a bit like saying London Arsenal. I don't think anyone in Spain says Deportivo La Coruna, just Deportivo, for the same reason. I don't know about Atletico because there's several of them.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:46 (eighteen years ago)

Sporting Lisbon ARE just called Sporting

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 13:47 (eighteen years ago)

I was talkin about Sporting Gijon! maybe...

So why would they call them Deportivo and not just La Coruna?

I suppose because the description goes before the place, unlike in England (if we called them Rovers Blackburn or Hotspur Tottenham we might be more inclined to just use the first bit too)

― blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:08 (eighteen years ago)

But that's different, Blackburn Rovers are actually officially called Blackburn Rovers, Sporting Lisbon are actually called Sporting Club de Portugal, they've never been called Sporting Lisbon - like Celtic are just called Celtic

― Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 14:13 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think it's so much a question of which word comes first or second, more whether the word is actually part of the name or not. The club we call 'Inter Milan' are not called Inter Milan, they're called Inter(nazionale), we just add the place name on (like saying 'London Arsenal').

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:15 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:15 (eighteen years ago)

Dimitar Berbatov = best signing any Premiership manager made last summer? Surely only Benni McCarthy comes close?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 15 March 2007 10:10 (eighteen years ago)

Brilliant player... but still looks like a vampire to me

― Tom D., Thursday, 15 March 2007 10:12 (eighteen years ago)

Andy Garcia

― Ronan, Thursday, 15 March 2007 11:10 (eighteen years ago)

Yes! With Bela Lugosi's hair

― Tom D., Thursday, 15 March 2007 11:11 (eighteen years ago)

Hm, I keep thinking he should be on trial for war crimes.

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Thursday, 15 March 2007 11:55 (eighteen years ago)

Also, I listened to Chelsea vs Man City at the same time, Alan Green is now totally insane, isn't he? I recall him accusing Arsenal fans of being pathetic earlier in the season for not being back in their seats at the start of the second half because they were "too busy finishing their glass of wine and prawn sandwich".

Yesterday he said that a rival station had claimed the Crystal Palace squad had been at Cheltenham during the day, despite playing West Brom that night. At the end he said "and Palace have beaten West Brom 3-2. THEY WEREN'T IN CHELTENHAM" with hilarious spite.

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Thursday, 15 March 2007 11:59 (eighteen years ago)

two weeks pass...

Liverpool are playing some great one-touch attacking football. Three-nil up and they completely deserve it.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:09 (eighteen years ago)

Bugger. I was quite bored in the first half and switched off.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:11 (eighteen years ago)

Liverpool coming into form at just the right time, ominously.

― Pete W, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

Psychic Clive T predicted a 3-0 win for the scousers and Kuyt to get himself (deliberately?) booked so that he's suspended from the irrelevant second leg.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

Great end to the other game. Bayern getting a crucial away goal from Van Buyten of all people to make it 1-1, then Milan getting a dodgy penalty through diving cheating cnut Kaka for 2-1, then Van Buyten pops up again in the 93rd minute to equalise.

― onimo, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

Also diving cheating cnut Gilardino misses the return as he added to his comedy cheating dive booking at Celtic Park with another card tonight. Fuck 'im.

― onimo, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:40 (eighteen years ago)

bollocks, i turned off the milan game just after bayern made it 1-1. bloody liddlepool, they'll all be crowing on GU tomorrow. and we're going to get turned over by valencia.

might stick to watching Martin Keown getting punched on youtube.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUGaFcr4i8Q

― Pete W, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:43 (eighteen years ago)

Like CT said, some of the early qualifying rounds in 2005 were harder than that.

― Stevie T, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

Onimo is not bitter ;)

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

I feel a little like I did after the Leverkusen away victory in 2005!

― Ronan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 23:54 (eighteen years ago)

http://football.guardian.co.uk/championsleague200607/story/0,,2049673,00.html
Rome erupts in anger after United warn of city's danger..."Manchester United have made a serious allusion against our city and our people and I am really annoyed," said Spalletti. "I have been working in Rome for a few years now and I can assure everyone our fans are very passionate in supporting our team but they are not violent."

This is the warning that United sent to the supporters travelling to Rome:
http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid=%7BB4CEE8FA%2D9A47%2D47BC%2DB069%2D3F7A2F35DB70%7D&newsid=416127
I can't see anything controversial there at all. It goes out of its way to get fans to avoid any potential flashpoints (where English fans are *known* to have been stabbed before), get to the stadium safely, not try to get in without tickets or with tickets for the Roma section, and mentions that the toilets are a bit basic (which they are).

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 08:44 (eighteen years ago)

what is the point of clarence seedorf? is he just some talisman who ensures you a place in the latter rounds of the champions league, without ever doing much? for every good game ive seen him play, thereäs been quite a number of rubbish ones (like last night, f'rinstance)

― Weasel Diesel, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 10:25 (eighteen years ago)

La Coruña is now called A Coruña and people from A Coruña just call it Coruña. And they call Deportivo Depor.

I hope this helps.

― PJ Miller, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 12:22 (eighteen years ago)

Kudos to The Sun for today's backpage headline: ROLL OVER EINDHOVEN

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 12:23 (eighteen years ago)

We're seeing pictures of the crowd scenes and it does not make for pleasant television. One fan has blood streaming down his face and is being dragged to his feet by police. The police are wading in with batons.

"United fans appeared to charge the police and the police went in. It got pretty vicious. We're about 80 yards away but it seems to have quietened down now. We've just heard a loud crash and there is smoke over there. It is very, very nasty inside this ground now. I don't know if the Roma fans started this but they are happy now as it is between the police and the United fans."
BBC Five Live commentator Alan Green

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

All this, a red card for Scholes and a goal conceded. Blimey.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 19:59 (eighteen years ago)

And now Rooney's scored. It's all 'appenin'.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 20:10 (eighteen years ago)

A Roma-Milan final would be almost annoying after all the faff re Juve and co.

― blueski, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 20:17 (eighteen years ago)

oh but they would meet in the semi if they both went thru anyway i think

― blueski, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 20:17 (eighteen years ago)

Considering the situation at half-time, I don't think a 2-1 defeat is a bad result for United. It looked like they might lose 3-0 or so at one stage. Italian police showing their usual restraint.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 21:54 (eighteen years ago)

Italian fans and police acting like neanderthal cunts shocker. Dig up Giuseppe Meazza and fuck his dust, that's what I say. Fucking arseholes. Maybe we should ban them until their police can act like they belong to a civilised country. Oh, I forgot, this is Italy, land of the pathetic state and the simpering apologists.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 22:34 (eighteen years ago)

because manyoo fans are always a picture of restraint........

― Porkpie, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 22:57 (eighteen years ago)

what a idiot you are, boyler. fuck off from this thread.

― Lovelace, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 23:00 (eighteen years ago)

an*

― Lovelace, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 23:02 (eighteen years ago)

From the footage I could see was that both sets of fans were involved and were not innocent parties and the police were brutal too.
It doesn't matter who started it. They all got involved.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 23:37 (eighteen years ago)

After the first goal the Roma fans taunted the Man Utd fans(no biggie, happens all the time) and then some Man Utd fans rushed towards the Roma fans. So the fighting was started by the Man Utd fans.

I have no sympathy for those who got beat by the police, even that one guy who got beat several times after he'd been pushed down. What the fuck were they thinking?

― Lovelace, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 23:46 (eighteen years ago)

United's travelling support are no angels and I'm not suggesting they are, but what happened tonight seems to happen whenever English teams play in Italy. There were bottles thrown each way and fans rushing up to a perspex fence on each side: so far, so bad. What's the police response? Baton charge anybody English they can get their hands on, irrespective of whether they had anything to do with the trouble, and then smash them once, twice, three times, four times, five times, six times, seven times, eight times and more while they're lying on the floor motionless and bleeding. It's another disproportionate response from thugs in uniforms.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 23:51 (eighteen years ago)

[i}I have no sympathy for those who got beat by the police, even that one guy who got beat several times after he'd been pushed down. What the fuck were they thinking?[/i]

NO sympathy? Then you are, basically, a cock.

― admrl, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:04 (eighteen years ago)

let's all share the blame

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:05 (eighteen years ago)

Sure the police overreacted and were brutal, but you know, some man utd fans did charge towards them. They're no angels. It's not like the police charged in out of the blue and hit people for no reason. There was trouble and the police overreacted, but that's why it happened.
Even if the police had also went in the roma end and beat some fans up, it still wouldn't change the fact that some man utd fans were involved in trouble.
I'm sure action will be taken against both clubs. As for the police? Probably not. But that's another issue.

I also read somewhere there was trouble between fans before the game.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:07 (eighteen years ago)

Anyway. The man utd goal was a cracker wasn't it? Great run by Ronaldo, Good cross from Solskjaer and excellent composure by Rooney.
Paul Scholes, you thought he would've learned by now. What a dick.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:09 (eighteen years ago)

the face of football took another bloody blow to the face tonight maniche.

maniche? are you even listening anymore maniche?

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:09 (eighteen years ago)

i forget he is at the cricket world cup still, the face of which etc.

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:10 (eighteen years ago)

NO sympathy? Then you are, basically, a cock.

Why should I have sympathy for them? These people are troublemakers. Not innocent bystanders. It's people like this who are destroying football. Fuck all of them.

― Lovelace, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:30 (eighteen years ago)

lol them

― ken c, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:45 (eighteen years ago)

coming to our stadiums, stealing our baton shots

― ken c, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:45 (eighteen years ago)

the kind of shitbags we expect to oome out of blair's so called great britain

― ken c, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:47 (eighteen years ago)

After the first goal the Roma fans taunted the Man Utd fans(no biggie, happens all the time) and then some Man Utd fans rushed towards the Roma fans. So the fighting was started by the Man Utd fans.

1) There were skirmishes long before kick-off. At least one United supporter had already been stabbed on his way to the ground (as United had warned them could happen, given that it has happened on numerous other occasions).

2) In the coverage I've seen the Roma fans rushed over to the perspex barrier and taunted the United fans, some of whom then responded by rushing up to the same barrier. Both sets of supporters were then pointlessly punching the barrier. Then the police charged into the United section.

Lovelace, if I remember rightly you are a Milan supporter (but from Sweden?), but you seem to be looking at this whole incident through peculiarly 'see no evil' glasses with respect to the Roma supporters and Roman police.

Why should I have sympathy for them? These people are troublemakers. Not innocent bystanders. It's people like this who are destroying football. Fuck all of them.

1) Lots of the people that were attacked *were* innocent bystanders, as always happens when the police give out indiscriminate beatings.

2) When you say "these people....people like this...", I assume from your earlier comments that you're not including Rome ultras in this description. It's precisely this kind of blinkered attitude that prevailed in Italy when I was living there: all English football supporters are assumed to be hooligans waiting to create another Heysel, therefore any trouble that occurs must be their fault.

3) This is 2007, not 1985. If anything is destroying football in England it's that it has become to some extent a victim of its own popularity: demand for tickets is so high that a lot of supporters are priced out of going any more and the atmosphere is becoming increasingly sterile and passionless. Italy, on the other hand, has had very serious problems with violence for a while now. Was it English supporters throwing a stolen motorbike off the edge of the San Siro? English supporters throwing bombs at matches? English shooting policemen and causing the whole league to be suspended?

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 5 April 2007 07:24 (eighteen years ago)

I was wondering if this would get brought up...

Uefa communications director William Gaillard said: "We'll be waiting for the delegate's report...

"We will also have to see what role Manchester United fans had in the incidents because they had some problems in Lens earlier this year."

Um...as I seem to recall that was a combination of a shit stadium and french riot police being completely OTT.

― Matt, Thursday, 5 April 2007 07:37 (eighteen years ago)

Everytime english clubs go to Italy, there's been major trouble. Everytime Italian clubs come to England, there's...er no trouble.

The Italian police are thugs in uniform. They're underpaid and undertrained. The'r 'tactic' is to stand on the away side of the perspex, and if anyone moves towards it, that's their signal to wade in. That's the trouble with indiscrimate policing - they may well have hit people who were intent on causing trouble, but they didn't care. They hit anyone in their way; people who were wondering WTF was going on and stood higher to strain their neck suddenly found themselves being twatted around the head by some goon.

What sickens me is that this thing pretty much everytime English clubs visit Italy, especially when playing in Rome. English police used to have similar tactics, but learnt to reassess when it dawned on them that this attitude leads to 96 people dying. Italian football is not far away from where we were about 20 years, but unlike us, their chances of escaping it are lessened by the fact that the football scene is properly corrupt, rather than a bit bent, and the reach of the Italian state is weak. Combine that with the wrong-headedness of many fans who see ultra culture as being threatened and are fighting against any semblance of reassessment of the negative aspects of that culture, which basically means instead of trying to preserve the positives (can't think of many to be honest, but there you go) they end up defending utter cunts who like maiming people as authentic expressions of a terrace culture, and apply the veneer of some pseudo-political anti-commercial bollocks to it too.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 08:16 (eighteen years ago)

Having seen the United firm on the move one or two times - black outfits, leather gloves, moody faces - this sort of thing was always going to happen sooner or later: they're probably the largest and most active and most noticeable mob in the country. The Italian police reaction is disgraceful, but Utd have been acting like cocks at football grounds up and down the country for years and unfortunately it was always going to backfire on the innocents. Arsenal and Chelsea (i've been to Rome and Milan with CFC) have managed to play in Italy in recent years without any sign of trouble, so I'm not buying this, it was all the Italians fault line, either. Ninety per cent of the time there's only bother if both sets of fans go looking for it.

Shit result for Chelsea, n all.

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 08:32 (eighteen years ago)

Dave, how do you suggest the riot police on duty are briefed to react in the event of trouble? "try talking to them, calm them down, be gentle". These are football hooligans, or at the very least tanked-up adrenalised young thugs, and while British fans don't have a rep for killing policeman, if you were a cop would you like to give them the opportunity to start?

It was pragmatic, brutal and unfair but if the United "fans" expected anything else they're idiots.

― Mark C, Thursday, 5 April 2007 09:41 (eighteen years ago)

So you've no problems with the way the police acted then?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 5 April 2007 09:46 (eighteen years ago)

You'll notice they didn't 'pragmatically' knock seven shades of shit out of the Roma fans.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 5 April 2007 09:48 (eighteen years ago)

No, that's what I mean, it was unfair. But do they halve their resources and patrol both sides of the barrier or do they concentrate on keeping the two parties apart?

Dear football hooligans,

Don't cause trouble in away grounds where the hair-trigger police WILL knock seven shades of shit out of you if you get out of line.

Love,
Mark

― Mark C, Thursday, 5 April 2007 09:56 (eighteen years ago)

But do they halve their resources and patrol both sides of the barrier

sounds good! i doubt the Utd people were going to do anything that bad without provocation...based on track record in Italy and other places (tho what Pete said may well be true i didn't realise).

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:01 (eighteen years ago)

From what I saw, most of the missiles were being thrown by the Roma fans, if anyone expected the United fans to just sit back and let them continue they're idiots.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:04 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not one of these people claiming the United fans are all blameless, but "don't want to be beaten round the head with a baton? Don't cause trouble then" is neither constructive, accurate nor helpful.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:05 (eighteen years ago)

So you're saying the tifosi and the police got together to figure out the best way to justify beating up Man U fans?

xpost: Oh, Mattpaws.

― Mark C, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:06 (eighteen years ago)

the point is they don't have to justify it, innit.

the roma fans know the police are on a hair-trigger, so will taunt the manu fans until they get a rise, at which point they know the police will bash the hell out of the manu fans...

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:16 (eighteen years ago)

Running battles on the terraces, missiles thrown at supporters, flares and firecrackers going off, coins, bottles and lighters thrown at players, people getting seriously beaten up or even killed - this happens week in, week out in Italy. It's virtually unthinkable nowadays in Britain - you'd get a life ban for the heinous crime of chucking celery at the corner flag. When Italian fans come to Britain nothing happens to them. When English fans go to Italy there's nearly always trouble and the Italian media blames English hooligans.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:18 (eighteen years ago)

x-post Plus, what happens in the ground isn't ever even half the story.

Jamie, one of the reasons that there is always trouble when the English go to Italy is because certain English fans know that is exactly what they will find when they go out there. The italian game seriously needs to sort its act out - it's way behind us domestically - but there are some English supporters who see that as something to be jealous of.

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:21 (eighteen years ago)

They don't need to get together. It's just the way it all too often works out. Ask Middlesbrough fans.

Italian police might always do this type of thing, and clearly, some people disregarded the advice, but it's a fucking disgrace that the police get away with this time after time after time. It's about time there was a understanding that clubs can be forced to play behind closed doors if their police can't be relied upon to take a stasi approach to crowd control. Or:

Memo to Italian Police:

This is 2007.

Thanks,

Anyone watching football in Italy.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:27 (eighteen years ago)

I know you're a left winger, Dave, but did you really mean you want the police to take a Stasi approach?

Maybe this is a bit all "wearing a short skirt is asking to get raped" but when the crime/punishment go so vividly and blatantly in tandem, what possible justification do the British fans have for retaliating? And no, "they can't help themselves" isn't a valid excuse.

Didn't Jesus himself say "turn the other cheek"?

― Mark C, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:34 (eighteen years ago)

no he said the referees a wanker

― 600, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:36 (eighteen years ago)

The Book of Milford 22:12.

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

RESIGN PONTIUS

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

Sir Alex Ferguson last night claimed Manchester United were playing "against 12 men" in an outburst against the German referee Herbert Fandel, which could result in further recriminations from Uefa. Ferguson was incensed by Fandel's performance at the Stadio Olimpico and may have talked himself into trouble after claiming that "a good referee" would not have sent off Paul Scholes.

Was he even AT the same ~~gig~~ game?

― Mark C, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:41 (eighteen years ago)

How do you feel about the non-troublemakers who got beaten, and the Roma fans who appeared to get off scot-free?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

Oh your bleeding heart. It's terrible innocent people got smacked, and it's unfair that the Roma fans got away scot free. Did you expect me to say anything different?

― Mark C, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:47 (eighteen years ago)

Mark - I want the police to stop acting like neanderthal thugs, and whilst we're at it, a significant proportion of self-declared ultras to stop thinking that said description gives them an excuse to act the total violent cunt.

The reason people retaliate is that when we see the home fans lobbing all sorts of shit at them, causing nasty injuries, and then look to the police for protection and if they're lucky, told to fuck off, or more likely, whacked for their trouble, then what would you do? You're surrounded by people who won't protect you, and under attack from people, with no-where to escape to, because the police have cordoned off the exists.

Amazingly, because they're no Benedictine monks, people get angry, they get protective of those less able to handle the intimidation.

That's as true of any social group I can think of (monks and other religious types aside) and the finger of blame, such as it, lies with the authorities for completely failing to give a single shit about any of this for year upon year upon year.

And then in the face of the schlerotic response from the schlerotic state, when clubs give fans advice on what will quite likely happen, they then have the temerity to do that look beloved of hatchet defenders in Italy, of coming over all angelic and pained in victim status as if butter wouldn't melt in their mouths and trying to present this advice as somehow a slur on your fair city. Because the fair city deserves to be criticised, which is very different from a slur.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:49 (eighteen years ago)

Mark, so presumably you'd agree that, between 'rush into the crowd and start beating United fans round the head' and 'do nothing and let the fans rush at you and try and kill you', there might be a more effective police strategy?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:50 (eighteen years ago)

it all hinges on whether Roma/ultra dudes started the object-hurling (seems likely). visiting fans then become the lesser of three evils by default.

Pete can you give us examples of how Utd 'firm' have been acting cock-like at other grounds?

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:52 (eighteen years ago)

A nice policeman defending himself by, er , holding his baton the other way around to cause more damage.

http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/calcio/incidenti-olimpico/ap101252510504104344_big.jpg

Fucking cunts. Or Rome's finest. Take yer pick.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 10:56 (eighteen years ago)

Blueski
there's been trouble at loads of United games in recent years, more than anybody else in the Prem (except possibly Spurs), and the average Utd away fan now acts in the knowledge that there is a big firm to back them up if anything happens. So we have things like the 'Istanbul Reds' flag waved at Leeds, helicopter impressions at Chelsea (no other club has done this to us), Hillsborough chants etc. Now this does have its good side - United are the loudest and sometimes wittiest fans in the country, bar none - but throw the genuine headcases into the mix (the Men In Black), and there is a lot of tension at grounds when United turn up. It does remind me of Chelsea 15 years ago, but without anything like the media attention or, it seems, police intelligence.

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:01 (eighteen years ago)

don't want to touch sensitive ground here but what do their helicopter impressions actually entail?

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:05 (eighteen years ago)

Well, they wave one arm above their head like a helicopter blade. It's a functional rather than flamboyant imitation. The first time they did it was when they were leading 5-0 in an FA Cup tie, which was really rather against the pale I thought.

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:12 (eighteen years ago)

But they have to put up with Munich aircrash songs too. Not saying therefore it's OK for them to roffle at dead people too, but it doesn't make them *worse* than anyone else, just no better than them. Yes?

― ailsa, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:14 (eighteen years ago)

Was it Leeds or Man Utd fans that used to wave cigarette lighters about when they were away to Bradford?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:15 (eighteen years ago)

ailsa, absolutely with the Munich stuff and having to put up with it for years. But United still seem to be doing all the stuff that other fans gave up ten years ago, some good - standing up and singing all game - some bad - songs about disasters.

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:19 (eighteen years ago)

I think Leeds actually set fire to a burger van at Bradford in the late 80s. Classy.

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:20 (eighteen years ago)

IM IN UR NASHUNUL GAME, BEIN A CUNT

― Mark C, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:27 (eighteen years ago)

Man City fans at Charlton a few years ago: "You're just a town full of Munichs, town full of Munichs..."

Everton fans at the Anfield derby: "Justice for the 39!"

None of this deserves a baton rush by Italian police. Just a clip round the ear from their mums.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:27 (eighteen years ago)

Ah, but this is Italy. Mums just make huge dinners, so the police have to do the clipping.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:38 (eighteen years ago)

Do the police live with their mums as well?

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:41 (eighteen years ago)

live with, sleep with...

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:41 (eighteen years ago)

None of this changes the fact that some man utd fans did cause trouble.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:43 (eighteen years ago)

Or if not causing it, joining in and being part of it if you want to be pedantic.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:44 (eighteen years ago)

or just more accurate!

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:50 (eighteen years ago)

What does some mean? What does trouble mean? How do you avoid being part of 'it' under the circumstances?

You see, there's the vibe which seems to say that because they're not all angelic, then there's somehow some sort of rationality to this, some sort of justification. Which is fine if you read the daily mail, or are the sort of teacher who punishes the whole class rather than the individuals responsible, but forgive me if I think the attitude stinks.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:54 (eighteen years ago)

the sort of teacher who punishes the whole class rather than the individuals responsible = *every* teacher

― Grandpont Genie, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:04 (eighteen years ago)

Boyler, my point was that the fact a number of United fans, who have form, went to Rome looking for trouble meant that innocents were always likely to get injured, given how Roman police are known to react (to all away supporters, not just the English). To pretend that United's hoolies have no responsibility for the treatment their fellow supporters received is silly.

One thing that really winds me up about hooligan culture is the claim that they are 'protecting' the scarfers when, as a scarfer, I just wish they'd all fuck off and leave football alone.

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:05 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think police should ever descend to that level of violence. I don't see how it was necessary too, their tactics were too offensive in the strictest sense of the word, not defensive.

― Ronan, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:19 (eighteen years ago)

Agreed on that.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:20 (eighteen years ago)

But the stupidity of it - and this is true everywhere it's treated like this - is that policing for the lowest common denominator has two stupid consequences. Firstly, it's far more likely to bring people with no intention of doing anything other than watching the match into confrontation; I know so many mild-mannering ordinary fans who end up being highly confrontational with local police and stewards because they're treated like utter shit, and most people have a line that if crossed, causes them to react, and the treatment people get usually causes a great many to cross that line.

Secondly, the people far more likely to not bother going are the people who want to watch the match. Tactis like this are the equivalent of reducing a sauce of fans to hoolie concentrate, and it's fucking idiotic of the police - wherever they are (but predominantly in continental Europe these days, Millwall aside) - to act like this. Unless of course they want trouble as it means they'll be on duty with full overtime next time around, but heaven forfend that's part of this.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:27 (eighteen years ago)

What can be done about a police force that acts like that pretty much every week and clearly with the tacit approval of the Italian FA? Not really UEFA's territory.

― Pete W, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:30 (eighteen years ago)

I know so many mild-mannering ordinary fans who end up being highly confrontational with local police and stewards because they're treated like utter shit, and most people have a line that if crossed, causes them to react, and the treatment people get usually causes a great many to cross that line.

True. We used to get that at Accies games (way back at Douglas Park when we played there) if the Motherwell police were in charge instead of the usual Hamilton Police who knew everyone and that most stuff was just banter and not troublemaking. (the motherwell police were used to the antics of the Motherwell SS(casuals), so were pretty much zero tolerance, but that just pissed off EVERYONE in the shed making it very unpleasant)

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:33 (eighteen years ago)

What can be done? Personally, I'd force Italian clubs to play behind closed doors until such time as their police can be relied upon to police in a modern fashion. The Italian clubs would soon lobby the government and get something done (as Moggiopoli showed) but they need a serious statement of intent, rather than a 'try not to do this again scamps' which has no effect whatsoever.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:36 (eighteen years ago)

Italians value football over legal justice though, this is the thing. Any government suspending the national game for that long will see their poll ratings fucking collapse and, especially at the moment, play completely into the hands of Silvio's gang.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:37 (eighteen years ago)

DELETE ITALY

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:40 (eighteen years ago)

I mean, this is the thing, Boyle's right that the Italian game is corrupt and the Italian police are probably the worst in any democratic country. But while the Italian FA keep going on about the "English solution" to hooliganism (grass roots work, zero tolerance, prison sentences and bans), the thing that everyone forgets is that Ultras and classic 80s football casuals are a completely different breed. English football thugs were just that: thugs. A bunch of bored factory workers and salesmen with far right tendencies smacking the shit out of each other on Saturday, and then going back to work Monday. The Ultras aren't like that, they're organized, they have ties to organized crime, they're not some bored rabble, they're a full-blown street gang. As in Argentina and Brazil, the leaders of the Ultras do the job full time, and make profits through a little racketeering, protection work, even hired vigilante work for the Mafiosi. You're not going to change all of that just by getting matches played behind closed doors.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:40 (eighteen years ago)

no chance of bringing back the Anglo-Italian Cup then?

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:43 (eighteen years ago)

Dom - you're right, but playing behind closed doors might at least stop people getting their heads kicked in, which is a step forward from where we are at the moment.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:44 (eighteen years ago)

Is it enough of a step forward though? I mean surely it's better to treat the illness rather than the symptoms?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:45 (eighteen years ago)

Remember that the Italian police are undereducated and underpaid, it's basically an occupation for people who can't get work as bar staff or builders.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:46 (eighteen years ago)

Turkey recently played Norway behind closed doors at a neutral venue didn't they? Presumably this was because of the players fighting after the play-off with Switzerland for the World Cup.

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:46 (eighteen years ago)

Put it this way Boyle: what would you say is the #1 cause of decreased crowd violence in the UK from, say, 1986 to now?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:47 (eighteen years ago)

Dom, I'd rather tackle cause than symptom, but well, asking the Italian state to tackle root causes of anything seems to be an exercise in wishful thinking. Hence the minimum to stop people getting their heads kicked in.

The number one cause of decreased crowd violence? It's mostly been exported from crowds to specific meetings between dickheads, so I'd suppose CCTV combined with football banning orders has helped. But ontop of that, you had the concentration effect being reversed - crowds have efefctively doubled in the last 20 years, and so the hoolies are much more of a minority. Secondly, the cultural attitude towards football has moved from treating it as a scum game for scum people (cf The Times, 1984) to being much more better spoken of. Policing got smarter too, and after Hillsborough, there was a conscious reassessment of how to do it better, which was why Euro 96 was so well though of (unlike Euro 2000). Add to that has been a conscious self-policing effort from the part of fans too, in tartan army style which helped the other changes work in generally pushing the violence problem further away from football and making it a disorder issue, not a football issue.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 12:59 (eighteen years ago)

Italy will be hosting Euro 12 most likely. should be fun.

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:01 (eighteen years ago)

That'll learn 'em!

Oh.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:02 (eighteen years ago)

Ugh I already feel weighed down with the expectation :(

― Mark C, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:04 (eighteen years ago)

Italian Football Federation president Giancarlo Abete praised the action of police.

"We owe gratitude to our law enforcers and I don't believe those who try to make games safe can be crucified in this manner," he said.

"I was not present at the Stadio Olimpico... but I will follow the matter closely."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6528605.stm

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:05 (eighteen years ago)

William Gaillard, he sa:

"oh, for fvck sake, italy"

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:15 (eighteen years ago)

Bent cunt said other cunts weren't cunts shocker.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:15 (eighteen years ago)

there's been trouble at loads of United games in recent years, more than anybody else in the Prem (except possibly Spurs), and the average Utd away fan now acts in the knowledge that there is a big firm to back them up if anything happens. So we have things like the 'Istanbul Reds' flag waved at Leeds, helicopter impressions at Chelsea (no other club has done this to us), Hillsborough chants etc. Now this does have its good side - United are the loudest and sometimes wittiest fans in the country, bar none - but throw the genuine headcases into the mix (the Men In Black), and there is a lot of tension at grounds when United turn up. It does remind me of Chelsea 15 years ago, but without anything like the media attention or, it seems, police intelligence.
....
ailsa, absolutely with the Munich stuff and having to put up with it for years. But United still seem to be doing all the stuff that other fans gave up ten years ago, some good - standing up and singing all game - some bad - songs about disasters.

I'd agree with you up to a point, Pete. I would say that the Men In Black thing isn't just a recent phenomenon: United have had a reputation for trouble for years, but if anything I'd say that's been on the decline (to the extent that most people's image of United supporters is a middle class family with a picnic hamper going on a daytrip from Basingstoke). It's certainly nothing like it used to be. I know United always seem to be up amongst the top for arrests and banning orders with the likes of Stoke and Cardiff, but you've got to remember that the size of United's following is much, much bigger so we're not talking about the same proportion of nutters.

There's a certain amount of scum in United's support, as there is with any club, and personally I find anyone singing about Hillsborough absolutely sickening. It's very much a minority, but it does seem to have grown in recent seasons. I suppose anyone under the age of 25 doesn't really remember the disaster so some of them just see it as a way to wind up Liverpool, the same way as most people singing about Munich don't remember the air crash. It's also not true to suggest that everyone else stopped singing about disasters a decade ago - Chelsea might have done, but Leeds never stopped (in fact they seem to revel in their reputation as complete and utter cunts) and Liverpool only stopped after Hillsborough (and were met with "Where's your famous Munich song?") in a kind of uneasy truce. That truce seems to have broken now and both Liverpool and Everton could clearly be heard singing "Who's that lying on the runway..." at Old Trafford earlier this season.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:43 (eighteen years ago)

when did the Munich song actually start being used? what other songs are that old or older?

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:45 (eighteen years ago)

when did the Munich song actually start being used? what other songs are that old or older?

Some time in the 70s I think. Long before my time. I think lots of songs have been around for decades. YNWA must have been sung by Liverpool (or Celtic, I don't want to get involved in that argument) since the early 60s. Lots of United songs use Busby's name, so presumably they've been around since then. One of the ones still sung now is the chorus from the [Removed Illegal Link] from the 50s. Another one (Pride of All Europe) starts off "We are just one of those teams that you see now and then, we often score six but we seldom score ten..." - I'm assuming that's ancient because I can't imagine a football fan in the 80s making a song with the word 'seldom' in it.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:51 (eighteen years ago)

Hmmmm.... illegal link, eh. That should say 'Callypso'. Hear it here if you want:
http://media.putfile.com/Sparkys-Nightmare

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:52 (eighteen years ago)

On The Ball City is believed to be the oldest football chant in England, if not the world. The words and tune come from a Director at the club 1905-1907, Albert T Smith

It can be heard when ever the mighty Norwich play though only the chorus is now sang rather than the whole song.

The words are as follows:

In the days to call, which we have left behind,
Our boyhood's glorious game,
And our youthful vigour has declined
With its mirth and its lonesome end;
You will think of the time, the happy time,
Its memories fond recall
When in the bloom of our youthful prime
We've kept upon the ball.

Kick off, throw it in, have a little scrimmage,
Keep it low, a splendid rush, bravo win or die;
On the ball City, never mind the danger,
Steady on, Now's your chance,
Hurrah! We've scored a goal
City, City, City.

Let all tonight then drink with me
To the football we love,
And wish it may be successful be 11/7/200
As other games of old,
And in one grand unite toast
Join player, game and song,
And fondly pledge your pride and toast,
Success to the City club.

Kick off, throw it in, have a little scrimmage,
Keep it low, a splendid rush, bravo win or die;
On the ball City, never mind the danger,
Steady on, Now's your chance,
Hurrah! We've scored a goal
City, City, City.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:57 (eighteen years ago)

Put it this way Boyle: what would you say is the #1 cause of decreased crowd violence in the UK from, say, 1986 to now?

I thought it was the massive quantities of E being necked by the hoolies in the late '80s, turning them all into spaced-out luvved-up ragamuffins.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:57 (eighteen years ago)

That and inflatable bananas

― The Boyler, Thursday, 5 April 2007 14:04 (eighteen years ago)

haha that must be the most quoted piece of bullshit on hooliganism ever...

Maybe they've all quit now and are going through the ensuing paranoia/depression.

Apparently Italian police violence and the popularity of italo-disco are inversely linked.

― Ronan, Thursday, 5 April 2007 14:05 (eighteen years ago)

I remember Delia Smith singing a bit of On The Ball City on Skinner & Bladibob's Fantasy Football years ago. It was quite endearing.

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 14:14 (eighteen years ago)

now the hotspurs are at it

― onimo, Thursday, 5 April 2007 20:56 (eighteen years ago)

Spurs fans got battered by the Brutal Spanish Police - even those in wheelchairs !

― djmartian, Thursday, 5 April 2007 22:04 (eighteen years ago)

The police didn't seem to be doing much based on what I saw on ITV. Couldn't see what caused the fracas tho it was quite funny to see people (both fans and police) falling over.

― blueski, Thursday, 5 April 2007 23:52 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah I couldn't really work out what was going on - looked like the Spurs fans had the riot police surrounded? I didn't see any Seville fans involved at all. The conduct of the Spanish police looked 1000 times more restrained than that of the Italian police, certainly.

― Matt DC, Friday, 6 April 2007 10:36 (eighteen years ago)

Matt DC in anti-Italian shocker

― Mark C, Friday, 6 April 2007 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

people have been falling over for others entertainment for many years. its reassuring to see it is popular on the continent too

― 600, Friday, 6 April 2007 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

oh i totally agree mark. the racist bile matt was coming out with yesterday was something else

― 600, Friday, 6 April 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

^^ i mean in the pub. im sure he wouldnt say it on the internet, but i was taken aback

― 600, Friday, 6 April 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

ILX football threads are a stream of anti-Italian invective matched only by Do The Right Thing.

― Dom Passantino, Friday, 6 April 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

Haha it was teh joek

― Mark C, Friday, 6 April 2007 10:53 (eighteen years ago)

It's kicking off outside Old Trafford now. Rather confused reports from Sky News at the moment - they seem to think that the four thousand or so Roma fans all turned up a couple of hours before kick-off but couldn't get in because the gates weren't open so they were just milling about on the forecourt. Not really clear who attacked who, but there wouldn't have been many United around at that time.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:17 (eighteen years ago)

oh dear

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:20 (eighteen years ago)

Re: last week - the Roma fans rushed over to the perspex barrier and taunted the United fans, some of whom then responded by rushing up to the same barrier. Both sets of supporters were then pointlessly punching the barrier. Then the police charged into the United section - FWIW this isn't quite the story. The police cleared the 30-odd United supporters who had charged at the fence away, and the stewards cleared the Roma fans away on the other side. A while after that, in an unrelated incident in a separate part of the stand, a load more police came out of an exit, one supporter was grabbed and then the batoning started (see from about 1.10 on this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2--bs4OEiIg ).

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

As many as ONE people may have been arrested!

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:34 (eighteen years ago)

Fans of Italian football team Roma have been involved in violent clashes with police outside Manchester United's football ground.

The fighting broke out at the front entrance to the stadium as fans arrived for tonight's game between Roma and Man United.

About 200 Roma fans were said to be involved in the skirmishes, which lasted about 10 minutes. Reports said Roma fans used umbrellas as weapons against the police.

It is not known if Man United supporters were involved in the incident, but reports from the scene said groups of English-speaking men dressed in black hooded tops did take part.

A number of arrests were made as police attempted to get the situation under control. About 75 police, including the dog squad, attended the scene and by 6pm most of the trouble had died down.

It is not known if there were any injuries.

The violence follows similar scenes in the Olympic Stadium in Rome last week when Manchester United fans were involved in skirmishes with Italian police.

Authorities had hoped tonight's Champions League game would pass peacefully.

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:35 (eighteen years ago)

it's thought this amount could QUADRUPLE before the match even kicks off.

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:35 (eighteen years ago)

umbrellas!

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:37 (eighteen years ago)

The gutter press were forcing them into their hands. "Go on, aim right for their giblets!" was the command, according to one blogger.

Authorities had hoped tonight's Champions League game would pass peacefully.

this contradicts other reports claiming authorities were practically SALIVATING at the prospect of more gregarious HORSEPLAY and police brutality.

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:38 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.imagebee.org/images/9686roma%20thugs.gif

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

RIP SKY News camera =(

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

I'm SMIRKING out loud (at Blueski's comments)

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

Anyway...apparently Alan Smith is starting up front.

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:53 (eighteen years ago)

Should send Alan Smith out there with an Vidic to sort those kids out.

Alan Smith is starting though, really? Would be nice if he had a good game finally. We really need a class striker since it appears Saha is going to be perpetually injured and Ole perpetually old.

― mercurialblonde, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 18:01 (eighteen years ago)

Subs: Kuszczak, Evra, Solskjaer, Dong, Richardson, Cathcart, Eagles

United looking a bit threadbare. I've never even heard of Cathcart.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 18:40 (eighteen years ago)

No new tv footage of the trouble because said sky camera was panned in. Looks like it's both sides partaking though. They're just lucky it's not the italian police!
I wonder how many seats will be ripped up in the ground.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 18:40 (eighteen years ago)

United are gonna steamroller Roma.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:02 (eighteen years ago)

two goals in a short space of time. JUST LIKE THAT NIGHT IN BARCELONA.

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:04 (eighteen years ago)

I'd like to point out I posted my previous comment at 1-0.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

I mean, this is basically AC Milan vs Everton, if you wanna flip the leagues.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

three goals! now it is more like that night in Istanbul, on that basis, sort of.

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:06 (eighteen years ago)

three up

Man Utd blitz Roma

― djmartian, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:06 (eighteen years ago)

Stunning stuff!

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:06 (eighteen years ago)

Utd strike Roman heads with baton of brilliance

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:07 (eighteen years ago)

Reds flowing down the flanks like blood from supporters open wounds

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:08 (eighteen years ago)

Reds flowing down the flanks like blood from ~~supporters~~James Vaughan's open wounds

Fixed,

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

Valencia are a goal up to Chelsea.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:17 (eighteen years ago)

another brilliant Ronaldo goal

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:30 (eighteen years ago)

Cristiano Ronaldo: he's nearly as good as Lionel Messi sometimes.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:31 (eighteen years ago)

A performance fit to take the front pages off the hooligans!

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

Chelsea really stinking it up. Sawt it aht Jose.

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

Fucking hell. How good was that first half?

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:37 (eighteen years ago)

It was shit, thanks for asking.

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:40 (eighteen years ago)

AGH IS THIS ON TV RIGHT NOW

― river wolf, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:43 (eighteen years ago)

no Utd youth players on the scoresheet yet. Come on Wes Brown!

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:43 (eighteen years ago)

What's the score at OT by the way?

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

ok it's on espn i'm a go watch

― river wolf, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

5-0

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:52 (eighteen years ago)

kin ell.

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:52 (eighteen years ago)

Roma are defending like schoolchildren.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:52 (eighteen years ago)

perhaps they should keep some goals for the league!

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:53 (eighteen years ago)

SHEVA

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:54 (eighteen years ago)

Jose has apparently sawted it aht. 1-1.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:55 (eighteen years ago)

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:04 (eighteen years ago)

One more needed for the Utd In Seventh Heaven headline.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:06 (eighteen years ago)

I am currently sharing a living room with a Man U fan.

And my ears hurt.

Nice footy.

― Zoe Espera, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:07 (eighteen years ago)

ooh, the roma fightback starts here ;)

― CarsmileSteve, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

Magnificent heaven, seventh heaven, etc.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

or not, there's yr seventh heaven.

― CarsmileSteve, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

Super 7

― djmartian, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

River Seven

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

Seven Vath

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

Sevenclear, as in "Everclear", the 1990s American rock band.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

7-Up [if only Roma hadn't scored]

― djmartian, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

8 would be great.

― mercurialblonde, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

Totti's played pretty well, y'know.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:30 (eighteen years ago)

Watford will be brickin it.

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:31 (eighteen years ago)

Chelsea going thru

― djmartian, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:33 (eighteen years ago)

Liverpool vs Chelsea

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:33 (eighteen years ago)

TWO'S UP!

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:33 (eighteen years ago)

o, what a nite.

now can Liverpool complete the reversal and lose 4-0 to PSV tomorrow night?

― Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:35 (eighteen years ago)

thru tonight:

Chelsea
Man United

tomorrow:
Liverpool [look likely]
Bayern Munich / AC Milan

semis

Liverpool Vs Chelsea
Manchester Utd V Bayern Munich / AC Milan

― djmartian, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

"a virtuoso performance of absolute magnificence"

― Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

In a nutshell: United for beauty; Chelsea for drama.

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

ok so i only caught the last 15 minutes but jesus

― river wolf, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

Albeit ugly, persistent, inexorable, expensive drama. Like something with Ross Kemp in it.

And self-regarding, vain, smug, expensive beauty. Like Lost in Translation.

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

bghjBFSVGDadfsdukgfnnsfhyrtg

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:47 (eighteen years ago)

btw lol at the obligatory Montanan redneck muttering "god these guys are such fucking pussies" when Heinze sold that last foul

― river wolf, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

RICARDO MONTANAN

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:49 (eighteen years ago)

Totti's goal = best of the night

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:52 (eighteen years ago)

"i mean, soccer's cool i guess but if you tried that shit during a basketball game you'd get your ass BEAT"

― river wolf, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:52 (eighteen years ago)

Totti didn't score

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

I can't quite believe what I've seen tonight. That's the best United performance I've ever seen.

PS - Totti didn't score, Gukbe.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

Amazing if only because a team finished a game 7-1 with Kieran Richardson on the pitch. I wonder how many times he'll get to experience that.

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:54 (eighteen years ago)

The 3-2 win over Juventus in 99 was a better Man Utd performance, first ten minutes aside.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:55 (eighteen years ago)

Also I think Carrick smells blood now.

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:55 (eighteen years ago)

HOLY FUCK at Jose's WAAAASSSSUPPPPP pounce on John Terry.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

I came in late and United were already 3-0 up so I watched the Chelsea Valencia game instead. Slightly OTT commentary about the magnitude of Chelsea's performance, but still, v.good boys. I'm not sure how I feel about 3 of the semi-finalists being English. It can't be good, somehow.

― Alba, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

Seriously, that was the post-match interview equivalent of a Youtube screamer.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

Michael Essien: pleased with the three points

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

Jose's such a cool customer. he never lets his emotions reach the surface.

― Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

vat was MIND GAMEZ

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

Jose's demob happy at the moment.

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:00 (eighteen years ago)

I think you mean "heppy".

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:01 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not sure how I feel about 3 of the semi-finalists being English. It can't be good, somehow.

Of course it's not fun for neutral fans from other countries but other than that I don't see the harm in it. Italy did it in 2003 and Spain a few years before that. It's something that happens sometimes, it's nothing permanent.

― Lovelace, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:02 (eighteen years ago)

The 3-2 win over Juventus in 99 was a better Man Utd performance, first ten minutes aside.

I was in Italy, teaching English and in a lesson when the game started. I ran straight to the pub and when I got there the score on the telly was 2-2. This seemed so implausible that I assumed it was 1-1 (so 2-2 on aggregate) until half-time. Everyone goes on about this match, but in my world all the drama was unseen and I spent the 60 minutes or so that I saw hoping nothing else would happen.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:06 (eighteen years ago)

That United-Juve game was immense. Especially as Juve's performance in the first leg was one of the best I've seen by an away side in Europe.

― Pete W, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:08 (eighteen years ago)

NB&S - are you jamie fake/teh hobb/etc?

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:08 (eighteen years ago)

yes

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:09 (eighteen years ago)

Quite glad I watched the Chelsea match really for the drama alone, but boy those Man Utd goals looked good, Carrick's second especially.

I'm not sure what I want more, the event feeling of a Man Utd v Liverpool final, or the prospect of Chelsea and Man Utd playing each other three times for three trophies in the space of a couple of weeks. Although a Bayern Munich v PSV final is still technically possible ;)

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:10 (eighteen years ago)

I got caught out by the new single-name-that-can't-be-changed format and unwittingly lost my HoBB. (xpost)

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 21:11 (eighteen years ago)

English clubs finally matching the precedent set by Italian and Spanish clubs in the CL can only be a good thing. ;)

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 23:19 (eighteen years ago)

That's highly debateable, he said rising to the bait.

― The Boyler, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 23:27 (eighteen years ago)

what are the cons really, bar lovelace's fair point re 'dull for neutrals'?

― blueski, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 23:30 (eighteen years ago)

It is IMPERIALISM at its most BALD

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 23:39 (eighteen years ago)

BALD

― admrl, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 23:40 (eighteen years ago)

Woah Hazy.

De Rossi, not Totti. Where is my mind?

Yeah, he had the best goal of the night.

xxxxxxxpost

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 23:41 (eighteen years ago)

I watched the end of the Chelsea game.

They kept going on about Mestalla being one of the most daunting grounds to visit. I assume this is based on some statistic or other, because even I wouldn't mind going there and facing the braying Valencians enjoying a little football in between bouts of building elaborate papier mache scenes to set fire to.

― PJ Miller, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 07:07 (eighteen years ago)

I suppose we should congratulate Manchester United and all their supporters.

― PJ Miller, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 07:07 (eighteen years ago)

On a terrific achievement, I mean.

― PJ Miller, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 07:08 (eighteen years ago)

The cons are based on what you think's important. I think that CL football is the dessert, not the main course. The continued success of the 'English' clubs will mean that:

1) The earning power of the top four will increase, as they will cement their position as a country with four places. They will also earn much more for being in the semis, further increasing the gap between them and the others in the PL. That is again exacerbated by the reward structure of the Premiership which will also reward them for finishing in the top four.

2) The degradation of the PL as a genuine league will continue apace. In Germany since 2002, 7 teams have qualified for the PL. In Italy 6, in Spain 8. In England? 5, with the one being Everton's two-match cameo.

3) I'm personally far more interested in England winning something, and there's no evidence whatsoever that there's any benefit for the national team whatsoever, and a quite a lot saying it's actually very bad news for them. The lack of first team players from England actually playing isn't going to be helped by platitudes such as 'the standard of english players will improve' or 'if they're good enough, they'll get a game' as there are strong structural factors in the way of this being anything but a tired cliche which has little basis in reality.

4) The Premiership will continue to spin the hoary old bollocks that it's the best league in the world, and reinforce it's sense of superiority, it's obscene inequality of wealth, it's continued assault on the idea of something called 'English football' which is about more than 4 clubs, and continue to try and build patriotic support (helped by their ITV shills) that this is somehow a triumph for English football, all the while continuing down a road which sees them utterly agnostic (and indeed antagonistic) to any controls on ownership, on player squad size limitation, on home-grown players and indeed, a successful England team.

Apart from that, I'm made up.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 08:03 (eighteen years ago)

In England? 5, with the one being Everton's two-match cameo.

It's actually six, you forgot Newcastle. Who let's face it have only fucked up because they are appalling at spending huge amounts of money.

Broadly speaking, I agree with you, but to what extent does the inequality of wealth in the Premiership, particularly in terms of TV money and cash for league placings, compare with La Liga or Serie A? If money were all there is to it, surely Barca and Real Madrid should have built the sort of unassailable position United and Chelsea have now?

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 08:19 (eighteen years ago)

The distributions in the PL are better than Serie A and La Liga as the last two allow individual selling of TV rights. However; the reason they don't go out of sight is that in Spain, there's they perhaps have too much, and fail to build teams. The clubs with less cash have to build a squad, and when it matures, they challenge, before breaking up being replaced by the next club (Depor, Valencia etc). Italy's a whole different ball game, and the success of clubs has been attributable to a different set of non-playing issues.

I think part of it comes from the fact that despite the fact that they don't have a collective deal, the value of the rights isn't as much, so not getting a share of the pie doesn't screw you as much. There's only so many players the bigger clubs can buy with their extra cash, which isn't as much as the disparity in England.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 09:01 (eighteen years ago)

dude, that is a ridiculous set of contortions to put yrself through.

real and barca earn shedloads more than the other spanish clubs yet they don't dominate the spanish league in the same way "the big four" do here.

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 09:11 (eighteen years ago)

Well, given that they do have more money, it seemed better to suggest that maybe they have way too much money, leading to packed benches and poor squad building. The only other alternative I can see is that the Spanish can't spend money, which seemed, well, a touch reductive.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 09:15 (eighteen years ago)

Well Chelsea's success and financial dominance has nothing to do with the structure of the Premiership, Arsenal appear unwilling to actually spend any of their cash in favour of building a team, so it's only really Man Utd and Liverpool that have benefited disproportionately?

No one has more money than Chelsea, and you can't apply that to them (until Mourinho goes at leasT). Surely the reason Real in particular don't dominate Spanish football is a combination of short-termism and menko transfer policy?

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 09:17 (eighteen years ago)

(Sorry my last para was a response to Boyler's last post)

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 09:19 (eighteen years ago)

I'd have thought so; Barca have spent a lot restructuring the debt inherited from the Nunez regime.

Chelsea's dominance isn't a function of the PL, but it does show that the only way to break in is to spunk astonishing amounts of money in there. Arsenal have a big issue with their debt servicing for the new stadium, which is why failure to qualify for the CL would be very problematic; not Leeds bad, but certainly break up of the team and slipping down the pecking order bad.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 09:22 (eighteen years ago)

the success of clubs has been attributable to a different set of non-playing issues.

Efficiency of their Ultras in terms of organised crime, stabbing, umbrella attacks, obv.

Talking of Ultras - Sarah is taking part in a conference at the mo and her panel is chaired by two Italians who unfortunately ended up on a plane over here with a load of Roma Ultras. They were astonished at how right wing they all were - "we thought Lazio was supposed to be the fascist club".

― Mark C, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 09:28 (eighteen years ago)

Boyler, omg never have I wanted to Bolton to keep winning more than I do right now.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 09:30 (eighteen years ago)

Arsenal have (I think) about 38M they need to pay back this year, which is taken at source in year one as the first year's payment and the first six months' of next, to get them into a position where they can only ever be 6 months in arrears. That's taken from ST payments and other central payments, so the club can't reshuffle and forget to pay. The thing to suffer would be Wenger's budget for new players and the wage bill if it lasted for more than two years. Which is quite fitting, given it was him who was the major factor in them playing there at the cost it has set them back, as opposed to a much cheaper deal for a stadium behind Kings Cross station with massive regeneration cash. Ho hum.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 09:37 (eighteen years ago)

will the tv deal not cover a lot of that though? i wonder if that was extra buttie on top of their original budget (which i think was predicated on them getting to the group stage). also according to today's graun, chappy who's just bought itv's share has been known to splash cash...

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 10:08 (eighteen years ago)

It's interesting; the new deal will kick in for Arsenal in cash terms this time next year, but since others will get the same, the chances are that it will give them stand-still money against others in the the PL, but increase their spending power vis-a-vis others in Europe. Even so, failure to qualify will turn what was expected to be a boost into a not much change, which given they've been pretty much on a one-out, one-in transfer policy for three years, wasn't how they expected it to be.

There's also the fact that the stadium needs that much cash every year for the next 15, so there's still a bit of danger every year for the next 15 (see Wembley, dangerous business plans for stadium development).

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 10:23 (eighteen years ago)

If you look at THE BIG PICTURE, Barcelona and Real Madrid are far more dominant than anyone in the Premiership or old first division. It is more like Rangers and Celtic. The reason they don't fulfil their potential is politics and hubris.

That is my opinion, the opinion of a footballing simpleton.

― PJ Miller, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

yeah is it the fact that the managers don't seem to have full authority when making transfers etc that holds them back?

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 10:52 (eighteen years ago)

Mighthhave something to do with it. So you get things like Van Gaal publicly dissing that Argie bloke whose name I can't remember, now at Villareal.

Riquelme!

Also I think there has been a shift away from having a few grafters in the team to complement the silky-skilled superstars. Obvioulsy I mean ridiculously talented grafters, but you know what I mean.

― PJ Miller, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 11:23 (eighteen years ago)

so surely the way to solve the PL problem is to make sure that the top 4 get more money, so that they will reach the mythical "too much money" stage so that they will become like barca and real?

― ken c, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:00 (eighteen years ago)

xxxposts obv

― ken c, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:02 (eighteen years ago)

most likely ways in which the big 4 might all individually decline are interesting to compare:

Man Utd = eventual departure of Ferguson and question of whether Quieros or whoever can keep them up there as much as they are?

Chelsea = where are the youth players? this is going to catch up with them eventually...they would struggle without Roman obv. but also Jose

Arsenal = the money thing as Dave describes

Liverpool = actually looking pretty healthy with presumably committed Rafa but they'll need to not make mistake Arsenal may have done re new stadium cost?

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:10 (eighteen years ago)

so the new stadium thing - does it not earn arsenal lots of extra gate revenue then?

― ken c, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:18 (eighteen years ago)

Think all the top four would struggle without their current managers for various reasons. Replacing them successfully is the key (or not sacking them in a fit of jealousy, eh Roman).

Chelsea got some good kids coming through, but it'll be another year at least before they are ready. Ranieri totally neglected the youth set up, but now it is in pretty good shape. Few names to watch for: Sahar (two goals for Israel last week), Sinclair (whooping it up at Plymouth - some stunning goals on youtube), Woods (nicked from LEEDS), Mancienne (at QPR now), Cork (son of Alan!), Stoch (nothing to say about him!), Tejera (or him!), plus the likes of Diarra, Mikel and Kalou. Liverpool and Chelsea both going down the Arsenal route, though Liverpool seem to be looking in South America while Chelsea are operating a pretty much worldwide operation, thanks to Roman's largesse. Liverpool and Man U in the FA Youth Cup Final this season, which is also ominous. There are now very few young players that aren't getting picked up after a handful of games for their parent club.

xpost - arsenal always strike me as a scarily well-run club, Would be surprised if they do not have a plan in case of non-CL qualification, although obviously successive seasons without would be a prob.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:24 (eighteen years ago)

Chelsea should be bringing in young British players themselves not by pinching them from smaller clubs - they're surely in the best position to do this. I don't know what's happening tho. Utd haven't really introduced any homegrown young players this season either. Was Richardson another case of 'good enough for his country but not his club'??

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

Looking at the England U18 & U17 squads on the FA website, there's 50/50 nicked and homegrown. But you can't turn out a decent youth system from scratch overnight. How many did Wenger bring through in his first few seasons? And remember the first crop of Fergie's fledglings?

West Ham, Boro and Everton seem to be leading the rest at this at the moment, though.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:48 (eighteen years ago)

Benitez seems to be constantly buying young players.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:53 (eighteen years ago)

though I guess Houllier did too, and called them "the next Zidane" regularly

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:54 (eighteen years ago)

and then there's Spurs and their all-consuming youth purchase policy, working from the principle that for every 5 promising young English players you buy, 1 of them will probabaly come good.

― Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 13:55 (eighteen years ago)

That's it though Ronan, every time I look on News Now Chelsea have either just signed, are about to sign, are thinking of signing or have been pipped in signing a wonderkid from PSV, Porto, Sevilla, Plymouth etc and it's probably the same with the other big clubs (and spurs x-post ha ha). Wenger has really opened the door to something here and I'm not sure it's for the greater good of football, even if it seems more 'moral' then spunking £20m on SWP.

Some tightening of youth contracts is in order or the smaller teams are gonna get shafted in yet another way. (eg we got Sinclair for 250k and he's already worth 4-5m.)

― Pete W, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:00 (eighteen years ago)

But you can't turn out a decent youth system from scratch overnight.

but i thought Chelsea had quite a good one in the late 90s! dunno where i got this from tho - maybe just the success of, er, Jody Morris.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:01 (eighteen years ago)

Richardson was on the pitch as the score was 7-1. He'll never know that feeling again. If Roma are the second best in Italy, then Jaysus.

Arsenal have been well-run, and they do get more gate money and more corporate cash, but that's on the basis of them being a very good team. How would a few seasons of UEFA cup place scrapping affect them? That's the issue. The debt is geared to be payable as long as they're in the Premiership, but the less money they get from elsewhere, the less money they have for the team after the debt is paid. It's like bouncing a basketball - whilst the ball has some energy, it doesn't need much to keep it bouncing, but if it starts to bounce lower, it needs more energy to make it go as high again, and so a couple of years of problems could cause further problems and so on.

Man Utd still have their own debt issues (80M this year and that's just the headline debt, not the secondary debts which will kick in in about 2 years' time, and despite them doing well, most people acknowledge their squad is the the weakest of them and Chelsea. Vidic's injury could cost them very dearly in the title race, but they couldn't afford to get cover. Just look at the long-term loans they've been making recently - they've been clearing salaries off the books in a way they never needed to in the past. Their prospects are totally down to Ferguson, and ironically, given how he's hitched his future to the Glazers, now theirs is hitched to his. The previous board were terrified that he'd become Busby Mk 2, hanging around like a ghost, preventing the club from moving on, but that's increasingly more likely to happen now, as his ability to motivate one more time prevents them getting rid of him when the worm finally turns. I can't see them looking at anyone not called Mark Hughes or Roy Keane as replacement.

As for giving them more money, sadly it won't work. Unlike Spain's big two, they're profit maximisers now. In a sense, they've always been so, but it's like a corner shop previously run by Alf Roberts, then taken over by Morrisons, before being gobbled up by wal-mart. So, chucking more money will feed the beast, rather than give them an embarrassment of riches to squander and create a sclerotic playing culture.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:04 (eighteen years ago)

I just had to look up sclerotic. I expected there to be a sense beyond the medical, but there wasn't. It's the sort of word Graeme Le Saux might use on MOTD2.

I think someone should arrange a Watford-Roma friendly, pronto. 13-4, I reckon.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

Anyway, here's to Bayern tonight, and onwards...

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:19 (eighteen years ago)

i hope Bayern beat Milan but not Man U.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:21 (eighteen years ago)

if/when Liverpool do go thru (and Boyler will run naked thru Eindhoven if they don't), all four of the semi-finalists will have managers who have already won at least one Champions League before - with Hitzfield having won two previously with two different clubs and gunning for his third, Mourinho seeking his second with two different clubs while Ancelotti, Ferguson and Benitez all seek a second with the same clubs. Remarkable.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:30 (eighteen years ago)

The previous board were terrified that he'd become Busby Mk 2, hanging around like a ghost, preventing the club from moving on, but that's increasingly more likely to happen now, as his ability to motivate one more time prevents them getting rid of him when the worm finally turns

Not that I disagree, but surely they don't have any reason to get rid of him as long as he's doing well. And similarly he isn't hanging around or preventing them moving on while he's still doing well.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:43 (eighteen years ago)

I hope Milan beat Bayern.

Chelsea should be bringing in young British players themselves not by pinching them from smaller clubs - they're surely in the best position to do this

Uh how? Scour parks and schools and pick them up when they're 8? Um, as it were.

― Mark C, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:45 (eighteen years ago)

Chocolate covered footballs, and Playstation 3s. Plus a team of big white Rolls Royces driven by ex footballers driving them, like Jonathan King style "impressarios".

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:49 (eighteen years ago)

driven by ex footballers would have done ok

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:49 (eighteen years ago)

Not that I disagree, but surely they don't have any reason to get rid of him as long as he's doing well.

One FA cup since 2003 isn't a great return given the success of the previous 11 years and there's still a chance they could finish this season with nothing.

That said, I'm sure the money men at OT rate "late stages of champs league money" and "top 4 of premiership money" and "sellout crowd" as better performance indicators than trophies.

― onimo, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

xxx-post
Hoddle and Rix set up a decent system, but Ranieri and Bates more or less scrapped it in favour of shortermerism and Winston Bogarde.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

(insert Graham Rix having interest in youth team gag here)

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)

Team who shouldn't even be in it, owned by scumbag, vs team from a country which could do with a bit of CL success lest people say their model of football with cheap tickets and atmospheric stadiums leaves them exposed in terms of international competitions.

Even if it is Bayern...

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)

But Dave, their grandfathers fought against you guys in the war!

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

no their grandfathers fought against our grandfathers

― 600, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:04 (eighteen years ago)

serious, it was like grandfather against grandfather out there

― 600, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

it was a gentlemans war

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.compfused.com/thumbs/old_men_fight.jpg

― onimo, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

i want Werder Bremen to win the UEFA Cup if not Spurs.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

even tho they are Champions League rejects.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:18 (eighteen years ago)

But Bremen is a nice place and has always elected an SDP Government.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:21 (eighteen years ago)

Uh how? Scour parks and schools and pick them up when they're 8? Um, as it were.

In the early '60s, Shanks and Catterick used to drive around Walton, Clubmoor and Tuebrook, daubing red and blue paint on prams - a kind of first dibs system. If the pramee was a girl or just rubbish in the air, tough.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

I want Werder Bremen to lose in UEFA Cup asap as they could jump over Celtic in the rankings and push us down to pot 3 for the Champions League draw (should we qualify). I also want Bolton to overtake Arsenal as that would push us up a spot.

― onimo, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

x-post Did the Angel of Death kill the rest?

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:26 (eighteen years ago)

the way to do it is however Man Utd have done it.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

pure gumption i tell you

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

Did the Angel of Death kill the rest?

They went to Tranmere, yes.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

most likely ways in which the big 4 might all individually decline are interesting to compare
...
That said, I'm sure the money men at OT rate "late stages of champs league money" and "top 4 of premiership money" and "sellout crowd" as better performance indicators than trophies.

I'm sure the money men at virtually all Premiership clubs think like that. If they are interested in trophies it's only because they think 'more trophies = more cash'. Unfortunately even a lot of fans seem to think like that now: they'd rather finish fourth and get into the Champions League than win the FA Cup. I think it's a bit sad when supporters are cheering balance sheets.

I think you have to assume that the owners of Man Utd and Liverpool (and probably Arsenal in the near future) are fundamentally in it for the money. None of them are going to splurge crazy money unless they strongly feel they're going to get more back in the long run. I'm sure if Liverpool went and spent £200 million on players this summer they would win the league and probably one or two other things next season, but they'd never recoup that investment, so it's far more likely that the owners will spend just enough to keep them qualifying for the Champions League and getting into the latter stages. United and Arsenal are even less likely to go on a spending splurge because they simply can't afford it. The Glazers seem content to spend as little as possible on the team without them dropping out of the top four (and have spent less than nothing over the past year). This season has confounded all expectations largely due to Ronaldo blossoming into TEH GREBTEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD and golden oldies like Scholes and Giggs hitting top form again, but there's a lot of players who'll need replacing in a year or two.

Chelsea are the anomaly in all this because their owner was quite happy to invest hundreds of millions which no one really thinks he can ever recoup, and also because their owner genuinely *does* seem to be in it for the glory rather than the cash (to the extent that he's reportedly pissed off with Chelsea winning with functional football rather than flamboyance).

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

Are supporters really cheering balance sheets,? As opposed to, say, the prospect of their team playing at the San Siro?

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:44 (eighteen years ago)

There were Liverpool fans complaining (pre rule fudge shenanigans) about the cost of not getting into the Champs League after winning it rather than basking in the glory of the win and complaining about not getting the chance to defend it.

― onimo, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

I was one of those, here. However I think it's possible to do that and bask in the glory of them winning.

I think as long as there is a danger of clubs falling into oblivion or going bust, it is likely that supporters will be keeping an eye on the financial situation of their chosen club. And getting into the CL is financially important.

Plus supporters have always cheered balance sheets, every time a club splashes out ridiculous funds for a player supporters are cheering balance sheets, and that's been going on for what, 20 years?

I don't think you can extricate financial success from success on the pitch anyway. Not completely. Nor can you say that any supporters are delighted with financial success and losing, eg do any Liverpool supporters now say "well 2005 wasn't a great outcome for the club because subsequently we never attracted any bigger players or made big money".

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

Let's say you support Bolton or Middlesbrough, for example, and you can choose one of two end-of-season scenarios:

1)Your team wins the FA Cup final against Manchester United at Wembley. You finish tenth in the league.
or
2)Your team finishes in fourth place, 30 points behind the champions and 1 point above the fifth place team. At no stage were you in the championship race. You crashed out of the domestic cups in the early rounds after fielding weakened teams because your Premiershp position was considered top priority.

What would you prefer? And why?

For me it would *have to* be option 1 every time. Fair enough, supporters might be excited at the prospect of a potential trip to the San Siro, BUT it's not guaranteed. In fact it's quite likely that you won't even make it to the group stages. And even if you do get to the San Siro you'll probably lose. And even if you somehow survive to the first knock-out round or something - so what? You make an extra £15 million or so that season, which means you can sign a £10 million pound player, which means you have a reasonable chance of having another season of bumbling along doing nothing much but creeping into Europe again.

Whereas winning the FA Cup at Wembley is a massive event in its own right, not just the key to a potential event. When you're 70 years old and reminiscing surely you'd rather look back on that cup success than a fourth-placed finish?

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:07 (eighteen years ago)

Well, it's a little complicated, what if the 4th place finish gave you the funds that aided a cup victory the next season?

It seems hard to judge the direct benefits of either scenario.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

ha ha, what if the 4th place means you WIN the champions league - as it did with Liverpool?

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:12 (eighteen years ago)

There's a lot of extreme positions being described above. Most fans didn't care at all about the finances; these were obviously important, but such was the culture of the game that people were actively discouraged from taking an interest in them, and the model, such as it was, was a simple social contract - we come in and look after the money, put some in, take a bit out, and you lot turn up, watch the football and don't bother your pretty little heads with this boardroom lark. Given the deference of the times, and the replication of this approach in so many areas of life, it was satisfactory under its own terms (ie, there was little criticism of it per se).

That starts to change in the 60s, when the cosiness of the situation is bust apart by the players with the maximum wage fight, and the Eastham case. As consumer movements didn't exist them in any real sense, it could only come from the organised labour. However, by the 70s, you got fans actively starting to be critical - linked in my mind by:

- the increase in repression you start to see forcing them to attain a consciousness, if you like.

- the growth of the post-Robbins Universities and massively expanded HE system in general, where thousands of grammar school boys who like football (as opposed to private schools where cricket and rugby were the games of choice) start coming back into civvy street from the campus, and writing for fanzines, not taking no for an answer, and asking the questions of their clubs that they'd been asking of their professors.

- the increase in the number of sharp-suited wide boys coming into the game, as the decline in the manufacturing base meant that traditional local-boys made good were starting to be replaced by the jack of all trades 'entrepeneur', such as Ken Bates. With no sense of fidelity to the locality, and a clearly antagonistic attitude to fans as a group, and a different attitude to the charity model of clubs, money started to figure more and more.

Through the 80s, the main battles are cultural, against the police, the press and the government, as repression is the order of the day, but by the 90s, with football losing the repressive vibe to a great extent, attention turns once more into the clubs and their situation, and by this time, with the Sky boom, the wide-boys are raking in serious cash, clubs have floated on the various exchanges and prices are starting to rise well in excess of inflation.

Add to that the increased instability of many clubs (36 of 72 clubs in the Fl in admin since the Premiership breakaway) and you have people starting to recognise the importance of balance sheets, the increase in the finances from an academic point of view creating an intellectual climate of investigation and some reporters starting to see this as important, and add it to the cultural changes in fandom, and you get interest in balance sheets.

Now, it can be overplayed, but there's definitely much more appreciation of finances of clubs than there was - mainly because its been such a widespread experience to be fucked, financially speaking. Once you've seen it happen to leeds, to leicester, to Bradford etc, people know it can happen to them, and they are aware of how to find out what the situation is, even if they're still woefully served by the media in this respect. Add in the internet making it much easier to find like-minded people (in days gone by, there were people who did care, but how could they find out who the hell else did, still less work with them to arrive at a better picture piecing together their combined knowledge?) and you've got your ingredients.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:13 (eighteen years ago)

i wonder how many fans would, if GUARANTEED ten more years in the Premiership for thir club but NO trophies in that time, take that option.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

I wouldn't, what it amounts to is some suits receiving (and presumably wasting most of) £300M for the pleasure of losing to big teams.

― onimo, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

but then I support a team that wins trophies and plays in Europe. Presumably if you asked e.g. Watford or Sunderland fans they'd have a different view.

― onimo, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

So it probably depends what your club's current situation is.

― onimo, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

I suspect a hell of lot less than would have done had you offered it to them 10 years ago; 10 years in the premiership means:

- increased prices to watch your team have not a cat in hells chance of winning the damned thing
- increased movement of matches to suit TV schedules in the far-east

The interesting thing is how many club chief executives would take it? Hence constant talk about closed leagues (so inconvenient, this relegation stuff).

Football is an escape from life - ultimately it's about glory, not doing alright thanks very much. It's no surprise that the clubs suffering the biggest slump in gates are the ones who started the season firmly in the 'not going down, not going up , won't win the league and won't win the cup' camp - Bolton, Blackban, Wiggin, Man City, Villa. It's also no surprise that most of those clubs are in the NW (hence economically less able to keep up with the Joneses) and also have been recently promoted (ie, are not 'natural' top flight teams in the last generation, and have realised that all they ever wished for was actually quite shit, at which point John Simm walks in from stage left.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

Football is society in microcosm.

― admrl, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

would Spurs fans now take ten more years in the top flight but no trophies?

i'm thinking yes.

Everton fans? maaaaybe...depends which side of bed they got out of.

Newcastle fans? WELLL...

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

i'm thinking yes.

sorry, i meant no!

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

Plus supporters have always cheered balance sheets, every time a club splashes out ridiculous funds for a player supporters are cheering balance sheets, and that's been going on for what, 20 years?

This doesn't make sense. When a club buys an expensive player the fans are cheering the player; when a club sells an expensive player the fans are either gutted he's left or are pleased that either a) they can hopefully buy a couple of excellent players for the price or b) they've staved off the wolf from the door for another season or two.

Neither of the latter have any practical relation to balance sheets - money is a tool, not a goal in itself for the supporters (for the players, shareholders and suits, it's key) who see none of it in any case. To the fans, the concept of profit is a meaningless one except via its investment in bettering the club.

― Mark C, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:48 (eighteen years ago)

To Mark -which is why they're natural social enterprises and the mutual model works in Germany - it's just the outriders which make it so much harder here to make sustainable when got pricks spunking loan cash all over the place (usually written off against tax in other business - cheers Gordon).

To Adam - David Conn has said that whilst he loves football, the main reason he keeps writing about it is because it's a fantastic way to do state of the nation style stuff; away from the hype, the grubby business of property deals, corporate finance, local political machinations, small scale fightbacks and the decline of the emotive in favour of the monetary is a parallel way of telling the story of the modern world.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:48 (eighteen years ago)

― admrl, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

Ronan, I think the point is that if your club sells its good players for megabucks, spends minibucks on cheap and inferior replacements, and diverts the rest of the money to line the pockets of its shareholders while the club bumbles along in mid-table mediocrity, then the balance sheets would be very healthy but the supporters definitely would not be cheering, whereas the chairman would be creaming himself with joy.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:50 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah and my point is that lots of money=more money for players generally=success. Supporters want this. But even before the success they'll cheer the signings of big name players. And this seems to have been a part of football for ages now, 20 years or so.

So profit does not always equal success, but just the same cheering profit does not always mean the supporters aren't cheering success. It's all linked together.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 17:53 (eighteen years ago)

Whilst I think Ronan's generally right, in that new signings are greeted with enthusiasm* there's such a sense that players might not actually make it, or could be overhyped, and anyway, how much is the agent getting, and how much is the signing on fee, that it isn't the same buzz as previously. When each club could afford to bring in about one or two signings per year, it made sense, but there's such a turnover of new faces that I think there's a degree of weariness there.

The money thing is still the same as it ever was - money is an insufficient condition of success. Without it, you've no chance. With you, you've got a platform if you get the right manager, get some luck and find some players who can form a team. Twas ever thus. The difference is that the sums needed to get you to that stage are now impossible to be bridged except by twats like Abramovich coming in, whereas in years previous to that, the gap was much more bridgeable.

*though the people who queue up to get the autograph of a new player as he comes to the club to sign are up their with people who line the road to the church the royal family use at Balmoral or anywhere like that; I don't understand it at all, and have no desire to, and can't help thinking that they're fucking idiots who feed the idea that the rest of us are somehow the same as them. But I digress.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 18:17 (eighteen years ago)

they're fucking idiots who feed the idea that the rest of us are somehow the same as them

COUGHnasty maggiesCOUGH

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

also Dave, yr missing the usual patheticness of the FA in bowing down to big capital at any given oportunity, from tottenham's heavy bending of the rules to float in the first place to allowing/encouraging the PL to exist and keep all the money...

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 19:53 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, bunch of cunts the FA. But seriously, there's bigger forces at work, which are helped to work by the supine nature of the FA's approach to things.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 20:27 (eighteen years ago)

Everton fans? maaaaybe...depends which side of bed they got out of.

That's a tricky one because our top-flight status is a big part of our historical standing in the English game (or our perception of same; I'm not saying anyone else is impressed by this) - only four seasons ever in the 2nd tier, 56 years since we went down, etc. Relegation would be such a traumatic event for Evertonians, whereas, well, another Cup win will come along at some point. If we had a Cup final coming up vs Man Utd but needed 3pts from our last league fixture to stay up and could only win one of those games, I think we might take the safety-guaranteeing 3pts and accept our (7th!) Cup final defeat. If the Cup final was against Liverpool...I think I'd take relegation.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

Milan aren't slacking, then.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

Wot's teh score, then?

― t**t, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

2-0, 4-2 on agg.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:40 (eighteen years ago)

all 4 teams in the semis have as much chance of winning it as the others. the only certainty is that the Liverpool v Chelsea fixtures will be terrible.

my instinct is, Liverpool v Milan rematch in the final, Liverpool win again, albeit in a more sensible fashion this time. i might chance 50p on it.

― Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:41 (eighteen years ago)

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:43 (eighteen years ago)

</boyler>

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:43 (eighteen years ago)

Is there a Sky contract somewhere that says Chelsea have to play Liverpool five times every season? Three years in a row now. It's just not right, for anybody.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:47 (eighteen years ago)

excuse the tangent, but i was just thinking about the big hoo-ha Fergie made about knocking Liverpool off their perch when he starting winning things with Utd. i've got no particular desire to see Liverpool continue on the vaguely upward trajectory they've been enjoying, but i have to say i would thoroughly enjoy the irony if Rafa established them as top dogs in England again, just in time for Fergie's retirement.

― Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:49 (eighteen years ago)

when you support a useless Championship side, you get your kicks thinking of ways success can bring unhappiness to others.

― Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:50 (eighteen years ago)

Ferguson would be the only manager not to have won it this decade. I think I now want Utd to win it on this basis alone ha.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:53 (eighteen years ago)

He looks like he doesn't know which day it is, never mind which decade.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 21:58 (eighteen years ago)

I want natural disasters causing suspension of the tournament to be the winner.

Liverpool I suppose are the least currently objectionable, but since their takeover, their luvvable cheeky scouseness has kind of disappeared for me. I feel like a French leftie on the eve of the run-off for President.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:01 (eighteen years ago)

Liverpool to beat Chelsea in the semis, Shevchenko missed penalty again. Then lose to Milan in the final. Entire nation underwhelmed.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:03 (eighteen years ago)

Still hoping to win that bet eh Matt?

― Pete W, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:04 (eighteen years ago)

I've got a goal to go until it's even - maximum win a fiver. Really, I'm playing for pride now.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:05 (eighteen years ago)

Obviously I want AC Milan to win because if you're going to lose, you have to go out to the eventual winner so you can pretend you'd probably have got to the final otherwise.

― ailsa, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:08 (eighteen years ago)

Chelsea/Milan final with Silvio and Roman cast as the father and step-father of confused child Sheva, each one beckoning his name and trying to get them to run to his arms, would be good.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:08 (eighteen years ago)

And then they lez up

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:11 (eighteen years ago)

Chelsea v Man United final, Mourninho fields negative brick shithouse midfield that is run ragged by Rooney, Scholes and Ronaldo with even Darren Fletcher in on the scoring. At the final whistle, Mourinho disappears into pit of sharks, Roman walks up to Glazer.

"Nice club"
"Gee, you think?"
"It's mine now"

Russian heavies drag Glazer away never to be seen again. Peter Kenyon reinstalled as Chief Executive, manages to blow all major contract negotiations in the space of a summer, Jon Stead starts the next season as lone striker.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:13 (eighteen years ago)

Chelsea win CL vindicating decades of frustration, ineptness, insolvency, dillettentism and Doug Rougvie. World salutes rags-to-riches fairy tale with teary eye and glad heart. I die happy. The End.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:17 (eighteen years ago)

Roman goes "job done", wins bet with Vladimir Putin, takes control of Russia, Chelsea sold for 25p to Some Norwegian Dude who instals Alan Curbishley as manager.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:19 (eighteen years ago)

Liverpool/Milan seems like the most "fitting" final to me as well. Plus the irony of ironies in Milan's punishment for being involved in the biggest match rigging scandal in recent footballing history being "winning the fucking Champions League".

Pfft! Their involvement was minimal and "match rigging" makes it sound more serious than it was. Match influencing is a better word(a Milan official blasted the ref after a game, that's it) for it and the evidence against Milan was very poor and very unlike Juve's.

When will people stop underestimating Milan?

Seriously.

You always hear people talk about how past it they are. Too old. Too slow. The defence is weak etc. I mean, you even heard it long before this season and yet they always reach the latter stages of the CL.

2003: Winners
2004: Quarters
2005: Finals
2006: Semis
2007: Semis(so far)

I think Milan have deserved to be a CL team who should never ever be underestimated. Their type of football is perfectly suited for a club competition like the CL.

― Lovelace, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:19 (eighteen years ago)

(a Milan official blasted the ref after a game, that's it)

on the phone that is

― Lovelace, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:21 (eighteen years ago)

also it's about time there was a 'kaka final'.

― blueski, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:22 (eighteen years ago)

Maldini scores 89th minute goal against Liverpool, lifts trophy after match, dies immediately of old age.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:22 (eighteen years ago)

That samthung you'd fancy, eh?!

― t**t, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:24 (eighteen years ago)

Defence based on a 76 year old, flashes of brilliance mixed with moments of sly conniving and blatant cheating that make you want to shit blood out of your eyes.

Also, always reaching latter stages /= getting there in last five years, unless you're doing the Silvio Berlusconi History Book for Boys (chapter 1 - we won it a few times, we should be in it every year. Anyway, I'm Prime Minister and I can do what the fuck I want).

Interesting revisionism about the Moggiopoli and Milan connection. And George Graham just took a little for a small extension to his modest suburban house. The fact that Gaudino was also the head of the League was obviously nothing to do with it. Just a friendly chat between two firm friends.

Anyway, I'm sure the United fans will be assured of a warm Milanese welcome.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:27 (eighteen years ago)

Defence based on a 76 year old, flashes of brilliance mixed with moments of sly conniving and blatant cheating that make you want to shit blood out of your eyes

But obviously it works as their record in the CL shows. And whatever defensive problems Milan had(in the first half of the season) this season has nothing to do with the age of the players but with the fact that Nesta, Maldini, Kaladze, Serginho have all been injured for a very large part of the season.

Please give some evidence of Milan cheating in the CL.

Also, always reaching latter stages /= getting there in last five years

That's obviously what I meant. But regardless of that Milan is the most successfull team in CL history after Real Madrid.

Interesting revisionism about the Moggiopoli and Milan connection

What revisionism? That was what they were acussed of. Had it been any more serious they would have recieved the same punishment as Juve.

[i]Anyway, I'm sure the United fans will be assured of a warm Milanese welcome[/i

Are AC Milan fans known for hooliganism?

― Lovelace, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:37 (eighteen years ago)

No but the Milan police are

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:38 (eighteen years ago)

The reference I was thinking of was Gilardino's utterly appalling dive at Celtic Park, which was so fucking awful and blatant that he should have been banned for being a cunt. And don't start on that useless goalhanging ball-hits-bollocks-hits net little shit Inzaghi.

Really though, it all boils down to this. Milan are owned by a neo-fascist cunt, and Inzaghi plays for them. And Gaudino is MD. And Berlusconi owns them. Did I mention that?

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:41 (eighteen years ago)

Inzaghi is a fucking excellent player and calling him a goal-poacher or any variant there of is so completely redundant by this point.

― jim, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:44 (eighteen years ago)

The reference I was thinking of was Gilardino's utterly appalling dive at Celtic Park, which was so fucking awful and blatant that he should have been banned for being a cunt

A dive is a dive. Just because a dive is more blatant than another it doesn't make it worse, it just looks more pathetic. There are several divers in those English teams who are left(Gerrard, Ronaldo, Robben, Rooney, Drogba are the most famous) so using that as a way to knock Milan or any other Italian team is a bit silly.

And don't start on that useless goalhanging ball-hits-bollocks-hits net little shit Inzaghi.

Oh, you mean one of the greatest strikers in the last 25 years? The guy who's in the top 5 goalscorers in European Cup history? Yeah, he must be crap....

Milan are owned by a neo-fascist cunt

I don't like it either. I doubt you would stop supporting your team if someone similar to him took over your club.

― Lovelace, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:48 (eighteen years ago)

Inzaghi makes my blood boil. If he knew how to time a run he'd have scored three times the goals he scored. he might score goals but he made Andy Cole look like a dead-eyed deliberate striker. If he meant to shin them, spoon them, slice them like he did, then he's the greatest player in history. Alternatively, he could be a willing worker who's been consistently flattered by good service, leading to a return rate that makes him look a lot better than he technically is. As Cruyff said, "Look, actually he can't play football at all. He's just always in the right position."

Update I just did a google, and saw that ferguson once said that "Pippo Inzaghi was born in an offside position." which made me larf and larf.

xpost -

I wasn't using Gilardino as a reason to bash Italian football (which I must confess seems to be incredibly overrated). It's occams razor - the logic wasn't Gilardino dives = he's Italian = Italians dive = Italian teams are cheating bastards = Milan are Italian = Milan are cheating bastards = Milan mustn't win but the rather Gilardino dives = he plays for Milan = Milan mustn't win.

I don't like it either. I doubt you would stop supporting your team if someone similar to him took over your club.

Actually, I usually fuck off when takeover are rumoured, never mind completed.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:55 (eighteen years ago)

What utter bullshit, when supporters cheer a hugely expensive player being signed this has nothing to do with balance sheets? The players managers sign have everything to do with balance sheets, and the signings clubs make are a major factor in supporter satisfaction.

Ronan read what I wrote again and you'll see that's what I'm saying. But thanks for the charming way you decided to respond.

― Mark C, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 23:02 (eighteen years ago)

Now that Chelsea or Liverpool are appearing in the final I've lost all interest in this competition. Come on Milan!!!!

― Tom D., Thursday, 12 April 2007 09:09 (eighteen years ago)

'conceived in an offside position' might also work.

― blueski, Thursday, 12 April 2007 09:13 (eighteen years ago)

I'm now convinced Man United have just had their Argentina/Serbia moment and now are assured of being knocked out in the semis.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 12 April 2007 09:14 (eighteen years ago)

Alternatively, he could be a willing worker who's been consistently flattered by good service, leading to a return rate that makes him look a lot better than he technically is. As Cruyff said, "Look, actually he can't play football at all. He's just always in the right position."
i]

Please tell me why only 3-4 players have scored more goals in European cup(s) history then? Is he the only striker who's had good service?!
You obviously know a lot about football but your comments regarding Ingazhi and your apparent hatred for Italy and Italian football is just plain silly and stupid.

[i](which I must confess seems to be incredibly overrated)

What the fuck? The only thing I hear about the Serie A these days is how crap and corrupt it is. What papers do you read?

Personally I see no reason to try decide which of the three top leagues are the best since they're all pretty much of the same class. The only difference is in personal taste and what kind of football you enjoy watching.

― Lovelace, Thursday, 12 April 2007 09:39 (eighteen years ago)

The second paragraph was not supposed to be in emphasised tex.

― Lovelace, Thursday, 12 April 2007 09:40 (eighteen years ago)

David Trezeguet is proof that statisitics lie

― Tom D., Thursday, 12 April 2007 09:41 (eighteen years ago)

ffs even people who love Pippo call him 'Inzaghi Offside'!

― onimo, Thursday, 12 April 2007 09:48 (eighteen years ago)

I haven't made any comments with regards to that, onimo so I don't know why you said that.

― Lovelace, Thursday, 12 April 2007 09:53 (eighteen years ago)

You like Italian football, and you're perfectly entitled to, but you seem to be getting angry at people for either stating the obvious (Milan are corrupt cheats) or passing opinion about Inzaghi's reputation being based on statistics rather than talent.

You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist about people having a go at Pippo (by questioning his actual talent rather than his excellent record), or people having a go at corruption in Italian football (which is clearly evident), or people having a go at Gilardino for being a diving cheating prick (which he clearly is), or people having a go at Italian police for acting like hired thugs (which they do).

I don't think there are many footballers or football aficionados that would rate Inzaghi as a Great Player, but then again we would all love an Inzaghi in our team. The Boyler's right that he's a frustrating player to watch but that he frequently (but not consisitently, more often than not he is offside) gets into the right place at the right time and therefore gets a load of goals - about 1 every 2 games throughout his career.

― onimo, Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:05 (eighteen years ago)

... but not against Celtic of course!

― Tom D., Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:12 (eighteen years ago)

It's purely personal preference. I've found the cultural cringe to the Italian style of football grating, when my memory of watching a live game every week for about 4 years - even at its height in the early-to-mid 90s - was that it was really quite dull. I also couldn't find a team to support despite vaguely trying to get into Bologna, Parma, Roma and latterly Chievo Verona. Maybe that doesn't help.

But in that time, and in years of watching the CL, especially when Juventus were a dominant force, nothing has disuaded me that Inzaghi is Italy's Andy Cole. His strike rate was poor (in terms of shots/goals), his strikes were more often than not unconvincing, in that he actually seemed to mishit them in the vague direction of the net, which confounded keepers who read his shots as if they would be cleanly struck. Sure, he's scored a lot of goals, but look at (say) what a top class striker like Van Nistelrooy does - he's just below a goal a game in the CL, whereas Andy Cole never got near that. The thing isn't how many he's scored, it's how many he didn't, and the manner of those he did. There's always been poachers, and Inzaghi is indeed a master, but maybe it's personal preference, but I've alsways liked my strikers to be a bit more interesting than goal-hangers.

I don't hate Italy or Italian football (though I hate the image of both as somehow superior and sophisticated amongst cultural cringers here) but I'll confess I have a grave problem with a football culture where stadiums are infested with nazi racists, and that's just the police, and where indiscriminate baton charges are an acceptable policing strategy, and where the more violent ultras reassure themselves that 'stab in the bum, no harm done' is a reasonable way to great visitors.

I also think that to say that the top three leagues are the same class is no longer tenable. Serie A is in a bad way. Inter caved to Valencia, Roma were pulverised by Man Utd, and Milan were helped by their inability to realise Podolski can't shoot, an extremely dodgy penalty and Seedorf having a good game at the age of 98.

The league has always had a big three, but the craxy spending of Cragnotti, Sensi, Tanzi et al made the league much deeper. That's gone. Add to the fact that the top three earn 15-20 times more than the rest through their mediaset deal, and that strength in depth is failing very quickly, as the finances become untenable. You can also add that the side-deals to half-share player ownership are a nice way of keeping people in line; at one stage, Juventus owned half of 7 or 8 players for Siena which is, well, shall we say less than ideal.

Italy smells like England in 1985; stadia well off the pace, increasingly homogenous playing style, a totally fucked up set of owners and National Association and a government unable or unwilling to push them. That's not even taking into account the problems on the terraces. I can't see any way out, aside from Italy getting Euro 2012, leading to a massive programme of investment in stadia and transfer of ownership from municipalities. The alternative is that you'll do what we did, which is wait for lots of people to die, before the twats at the top suddenly have a damascene conversion.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:14 (eighteen years ago)

Inzaghi to Cole is a bad comparison. Inzaghi to Lineker, however...

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:17 (eighteen years ago)

... agreed

― Tom D., Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:20 (eighteen years ago)

but you seem to be getting angry at people for either stating the obvious (Milan are corrupt cheats)

You are right about that, it makes me very annoyed. Especially since it's often people who haven't even looked in to the scandal and investigation of last summer properly and just read the English papers who never went in depth into the whole thing. I constantly read the word "match fixing" in the papers when no such thing had occurred, even by Juve!

You seem to be getting your knickers in a twist about people having a go at Pippo (by questioning his actual talent rather than his excellent record)

Again, you're right. I find it unfathomable how anyone can claim Pippo has no talent. He's obviously crappy one on one, can't get past a defender, lousy passer of the ball and many other things. But his obvious talents are: no striker works harder than him, no other striker wants to score more than him, he's always in the right place at the right time = lots of goals = great striker.

or people having a go at Gilardino for being a diving cheating prick (which he clearly is)

Um, no. I never ever defended Gilardinos diving.

gets into the right place at the right time and therefore gets a load of goals - about 1 every 2 games throughout his career.

If it's so easy then why haven't more strikers scored as many goals as him? It's laughable how people try to downplay his abilities.

Also, I never said I don't understand why people dislike him as a person. But surely we must be able to despise a player and still aknowledge that he's great.

― Lovelace, Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:21 (eighteen years ago)

Boyler, I'll reply to you later cause I have to get going now.

― Lovelace, Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:22 (eighteen years ago)

I don't despise him and I'm not downplaying his abilities. Like I said we'd all like an Inzaghi in our team getting on the end of everything (if Celtic had Inzaghi instead of Miller, Beattie and Zurawski we'd have ran up the league flag in February). That in itself is a talent but as Boyler says, someone with the predatory qualities of Van Nistlerooy getting the same service would be taking the match ball home every week.

Um, no. I never ever defended Gilardinos diving.

No, you just said that other teams have divers too and therefore we shouldn't criticise.

― onimo, Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:29 (eighteen years ago)

no striker works harder than him, no other striker wants to score more than him

these aren't really 'talents' as such, and they're unprovable. but not to worry.

― blueski, Thursday, 12 April 2007 10:31 (eighteen years ago)

Inzaghi is Italy's Andy Cole. His strike rate was poor (in terms of shots/goals), his strikes were more often than not unconvincing, in that he actually seemed to mishit them in the vague direction of the net, which confounded keepers who read his shots as if they would be cleanly struck. Sure, he's scored a lot of goals, but look at (say) what a top class striker like Van Nistelrooy does - he's just below a goal a game in the CL, whereas Andy Cole never got near that. The thing isn't how many he's scored, it's how many he didn't, and the manner of those he did. There's always been poachers, and Inzaghi is indeed a master, but maybe it's personal preference, but I've alsways liked my strikers to be a bit more interesting than goal-hangers.

Sorry, Boyler, but I'm not having that. Andy Cole's strike rate was not poor - this is a media myth. He actually had one of the best goals-per-shot ratios going. He had one really shit half a season (the start of 95/96) where he had only scored about three goals by December and kept blasting the ball exasperatingly wide. He became a bit of a laughing stock at that time and this image stuck, despite the fact that he was fantastic for the rest of his time at Man Utd.

If anyone is a goal-hanger it's Van Nistelrooy, not Cole. In fact a lot of RVN's game seemed to be based on getting into the right place in the six yard box while Beckham bunged the ball in the there and by the law of averages he'd end up scoring sooner or later. Cole, on the other hand, was much more involved in the build up play, and much more of a creator (especially when he was teamed up with Dwight Yorke). Also Cole was a lot less one-dimensional in his goal scoring: I've seen him get numerous overhead kicks, including one from outside the area, and headers.

I don't think it's even valid to compare their CL goals-per-game ratios. United with RVN tended to play a 4-5-1 with Ruud as the focal point. He scored most of the goals, but on the whole the team didn't score as many goals as they had before. Cole was nearly always partnered with someone in a 4-4-2, and that combination of strikers netted a lot more. A fairer comparison would be with when Cole was at Newcastle and scored over 40 goals in a season.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:31 (eighteen years ago)

he was never the same after those shin splints.

― blueski, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:32 (eighteen years ago)

we've seen Van Nistelrooy score one or two from solo runs began in his own half tho at least.

― blueski, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:33 (eighteen years ago)

... or after Ruddock managed to break both his legs with one tackle.

xpost

― onimo, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:35 (eighteen years ago)

I remember some pundit pointing out that not one of RVN's squillion European goals has been scored from outside the penalty area. That's a fairly impressive statistic.

― onimo, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:36 (eighteen years ago)

Don't get me wrong, blueski: RVN was amazing from 2001-2003. I just think Cole has been criminally underrated.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:37 (eighteen years ago)

I just think Cole has been criminally underrated.

I agree. The bad spell you mentioned plus that nightmare of a game against West Ham plus Hoddle's comments about him needing five chances to score all stuck to him and gained him a reputation he didn't deserve. He's scored some spectacular goals too, as well as chipping in with the poacher's efforts.

Tell the world my name
(who's that?)
Andy Cole
I blaze the scene
-Score the goal.
Keep my eyes
On the prize
-My inspiration
To celebrate the life,
To rock the nation.
Gather round
Get close to me
Here's the VIP
To my private party
The host with the most
Got clientele guaranteed
To rock the mike well.
Can I KICK it!
Yes you can.
A summer time rhyme
And a party jam
Sharp like a razor.
Speed to amaze ya.
Best ya like
Ali did Joe Fraizer
I reminisce back
to the school yard.
I used to work hard.
I used to play hard.
Got my kicks
From hitting the net.
Not from drugs.
You bet we're
Outstanding

― onimo, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:43 (eighteen years ago)

That was one of his better own goals...

― The Boyler, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:49 (eighteen years ago)

How's Kevin Campbell's rap label doing?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:52 (eighteen years ago)

It's true he said he didn't like football and he was only doing it for the money? "Andrew" Cole, I mean...

― Tom D., Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:52 (eighteen years ago)

I heard that was Dioufy?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:53 (eighteen years ago)

(sidenote: Kevin Campbell has the most Premiership goals of any uncapped footballer)

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:53 (eighteen years ago)

I'm sure I read it was Cole, he is a bit of an oddball supposedly (xpost)

― Tom D., Thursday, 12 April 2007 11:54 (eighteen years ago)

Even more tellingly for a player whose approach play never got any credit, never mind as much as it deserved, only Ryan Giggs and Dennis Bergkamp have more assists from open play than Cole's 127. And if you exclude penalties (Shearer 56, Cole 1), Cole's goals-per-Premiership-games ratio is actually higher than Shearer's. Longevity and outstanding service from Giggs and co can qualify these statistics, but they cannot discredit them.

― r|t|c, Thursday, 12 April 2007 12:07 (eighteen years ago)

OK, so Cole's been given a bum rap. Inzaghi's still shit though.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 12 April 2007 12:08 (eighteen years ago)

Cole released a bum rap.

― onimo, Thursday, 12 April 2007 12:13 (eighteen years ago)

Dom or Mark C - am I right in thinking you speak perfect Italian? I tried to translate a Roma fan's account of Tuesday night for a United forum, but I haven't got a dictionary and I had to guess bits of it. Is this more or less correct:

Let's be clear about this. The Perfidious Albion made us understand how they came to be called that. Manchester United only opened the gates for the away fans at 6pm, later than they usually do, and those gates were three tiny turnstiles leading to a miniscule tunnel that it was really difficult to get through, and then with exasperating slowness they only let one person through at a time. They did this simply to let their fans attack Roma fans (who weren't even ultras and wouldn't know how to defend themselves when it was all kicking off), and they did it so that they could let their police demonstrate their 'softly, softly' approach to defuse the situation.

As far as I can see this is how it happened. The charter flights left Rome in the morning while loads of fans got to Manchester by alternative means (including members of the Roma firms, but also lots of normal fans). They arrived in Manchester at about 2pm local time and headed straight to Old Traffrod which was still deserted.

Obviously the first thing to do was visit the Megastore, where Roma fans bought loads of stuff in the correct manner. After that they needed to eat something - there were shops there selling fish and chips, kebabs and drinks ranging from Strongbow and Carling to Fosters and Bud. A group of several hundred formed, drinking beer in the street outside the shops without any police presence whatsoever, waiting for the start of the match. Another conspicuous group was impatient to visit the centre of Manchester, and found their reception a bit hostile, but not too much.

An Italian souvneir seller let the impatient Roma fans know that the English would defintiely be getting their revenge and that they would do it right in the stadium. In effect there were two pubs, which wouldn't let away fans in, which were full of United fans who were happy just to watch the situation without daring to do anything, not even hitting a couple of imprudent Roma fans who hadn't really understood the situation and the atmosphere. After a while we saw a group approaching from a long way off. At first we thought it was the MIB, but when they came into sight we realised it was just the returning group of Roma fans who had gone into the city centre earlier. At this point the Roma fans were completely shocked because absolutely every fan in the area was one of the yellow&reds - no sign of any United fans! The police presence started to grow at about 5.30 when some English voices started to turn up and the queues started forming outside the Trafford pub.
(more to come)

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 12 April 2007 12:40 (eighteen years ago)

Thirty Mancunians tried to get us, but the police immediately intervened (lots of them were women) on foot and on horse and charged like lightning and arrested several Roma lads. Now the situation had changed because the Roma fans were concentrated on the forecourt outside their section of the ground while the English were in the streets around the stadium. Now problems started for the normal Roma fans who thought they would be able to arrive anonymously and protected by the more hardcore Roma elements – instead they came under attack from the English and the police were slow to respond. The police formed a cordon to separate the Roma fans from the English, and the Roma fans got dangerously crowded towards the gates (which still weren’t open) – it seemed like they weren’t going to let us in in time. They finally opened just three gates which would only admit one person at a time (the gates at the Olympico seem like some kind of fantastical piece of science fiction by comparison, even if I have criticized them before). Those cunts outside were enjoying the dangerous situation we were in, while we finally realised what it must have been like to at Hillsborough when 96 Liverpool fans died. Useless police.
I personally spoke in English to one of the police and told him how worried we were, but he just kept repeating that the police didn’t control the turnstiles, that was the responsibility of Manchester United, and he couldn’t do anything.

All the ingredients were there for a tragedy. Obviously the Mancunian cowards didn’t dare get close to the Roma hardcore (who could clearly be heard singing “where are you Men In Black?”) – they just chucked bottles at them from a distance, knowing that they Roma fans were surrounded by police and couldn’t possible get to them. Meanwhile they also had fun attacking any normal Roma fans who arrived later. I only managed to get in half an hour before kick off. The ground looks spectacular, a bit like the San Siro, but more modern, with those fucking stupid plastic seats that prevent you from moving around. No space anywhere for us to put our banners that some didn’t want to hang out of solidarity with those arrested. {not sure about that last bit}
Then, the match. It looked a bit impressive, but the Stretford End isn’t a curva. In reality the only ones singing were the scarfers next to us, but well separated by robust stewards, who were trying to create the kind of atmosphere that Nick Hornby wrote about. Watching them and having read the book I came to understand it perfectly. After just a quarter of the match we were already 3-0 down we understood we had to change things: we needed to behave more like English fans than Italian fans. Therefore we cheered loudly and ironically when we went 4 down and 5 down and then 6 down. When De Rosi scored for us it was as if we had taken the lead. Some cunt even asked us to sit down, trying to get rid of the whole context of what being a supporter is about. {then something else that I can't work out}

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 12 April 2007 12:41 (eighteen years ago)

I only managed to get in half an hour before kick off.

why the hell were they hanging around that early, wierdos. whatever else you can say about OT, the surrounding environs are hardly a selling point...

only opening three tunrstiles is a bit of a cvntstrick though, although, if i remember correctly, exactly the opposite of what happened at hillsborough, right?

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 12 April 2007 12:49 (eighteen years ago)

There does seem to be a huge difference in expectations between English and Italian supporters. The Roma fans seem to have been outraged that the gates weren't open two hours before kick off, but nobody would even dream of trying to get into Old Trafford that early. Even ten minutes before kick-off the stadium would look half-empty (although most people would be inside, just hanging around on the concourse at the bars / bookies).

only opening three tunrstiles is a bit of a cvntstrick though, although, if i remember correctly, exactly the opposite of what happened at hillsborough, right?

Well, there were plenty of turnstiles for the Forest fans, but nowhere near enough for the Leppings Lane end which is what caused the huge build up outside the ground.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 12 April 2007 13:01 (eighteen years ago)

The Man Utd Supporters Trusts has said that the club made a mistake in not allowing the Roma fans in; keeping them outside created the opportunity for trouble outside wheras in the stadium, it's much easier to manage. Still, no reports of bum stabbing as yet.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 12 April 2007 13:25 (eighteen years ago)

Any bum squeaking?

― onimo, Thursday, 12 April 2007 13:31 (eighteen years ago)

More than likely, with those plastic chairs

― Tom D., Thursday, 12 April 2007 13:32 (eighteen years ago)

Sorry CJ

― blueski, Thursday, 12 April 2007 13:38 (eighteen years ago)

Lazio were in the ground by 6 last time we played them. As for the Ultras gathering on the forecourt for trouble, I haven't been to Italy for ages, do they not have CCTV outside grounds over there?

Anything from the first leg? The papers still seem to think the only violence was in the ground, but I've heard there was big trouble all round the city.

― Pete W, Thursday, 12 April 2007 15:08 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1004/1004214_roma_fans_leave_court.html

It's like something out of a comedy: a group of Roma fans charged at the police two hours before kick-off with umbrellas. One of them was arrested and found to be in possession of a knife which he claimed to have bought for trimming his flag. Meanwhile one of the United supporters arrested plays for FC United.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 12 April 2007 15:27 (eighteen years ago)

Me too. I read an account of one fan stabbed outside the ground, then attacked afterwards in the hospital when some Roma hoolies can steaming through the wards...

― The Boyler, Thursday, 12 April 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

that seems quite dubious/unlikely to me, but i know nowt.

― blueski, Thursday, 12 April 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

Anything from the first leg? The papers still seem to think the only violence was in the ground, but I've heard there was big trouble all round the city.

There was lots of trouble in Rome before the match and several people got stabbed, but this has all been in the papers.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 12 April 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

Original email:

I am responding to the requests for information from people involved in the various incidents of last Wednesday and I hope what follows will help.

To establish my 'antecedents', let me give you a little background. I am a long-standing season ticket holder aged 51, a father of two with no involvement in football violence of any kind and no convictions. I have my own business and continuing health problems with a heart complaint. In short, when I travel to football matches at home or in Europe (as I have done 3 times this season as well as on numerous occasions in past seasons) my only interest is in enjoying the experience both before and during the game.

We arrived in Rome on Tuesday 3rd and enjoyed some sightseeing in the city and then an enjoyable evening near the Piazza Republica. The following day we also spent in the same area with other friends who joined us as the day went on. Although we were drinking and singing United songs, there was no aggression or disrespect shown to anybody and by early evening decided to make our way to the ground.

We had read the club's advice but did not go to Villa Borghese as we thought that we could still be safe if we were sensible. We returned to our hotel from where we ordered a taxi to follow the route given in the advice letter, so although we were not with the main group we were following the sensible line.

5 of us got out of the taxi close to the ground with three of us buying a burger from a nearby van - the only possible indication anybody could have had that we were English. None of us were wearing any scarves or shirts nor did we draw attention to ourselves in any way we could be aware of.

I had walked about 50 yards from the burger van when a young man in a dark coat appeared in front of the 3 of us waving a knife and running at us. As I turned to get away from him, I was stabbed from behind by what I have been told was one of a group of about 12 to 15 all of whom were carrying knives.

My young nephew, Stephen, aged 19 was stabbed three times and a friend, Steven Fitzsimons, was stabbed twice in the groin in the same incident. Despite the fact that all 3 of us were bleeding heavily and on the ground, the attack continued and but for my brother and our other friend who ran back to help us and the assistance of one United fan and a couple of older Roma fans who knows what might have happened?

Due to the nature of the anti-coagulent medication I am prescribed, I was bleeding profusely and from the shouting and demeanour of the ambulancemen, knew the situation was serious. I was taken to the Ospedale San Pietro where I was given a CT scan and they attempted to stop the bleeding. It was at first thought that the wound had penetrated an artery but thankfully the scan showed that this was not the case.

I was transferred to a ward where they allowed my nephew, who had been treated and discharged from another hospital, to spend the night. At 6 a.m my nephew and brother left the hospital and I was left alone in the side ward. At about 8.30 a.m., I was putting on a clean t-shirt although with some difficulty as I was attached to a drip and was weak. Suddenly, two men appeared at the door and walked into my room. One kept watch at the door whilst the other who obviously had sustained a broken nose the night befors walked over to me shouting and gesturing that he was going to attack me. I did not have the presence of mind to shout or otherwise raise the alarm but finally was relieved when they left giving me nothing more than a light slap and spitting in my face.

The hospital staff were excellent and moved me to a private ward where I was given excellent attention for the rest of my stay in hospital. On the evening of the attack and the following day, I received superb help and support from the staff of the British Embassy. I was also interviewed by the Italian Police on four separate occasions on Thursday although there appeared no coordination between them as they had no record of each others visits.

I was given stitches on the Thursday and was eventually discharged at 1.00 p.m on Saturday 7th April due to on-going concerns about my blood count and its lack of clotting. I travelled back to England on a flight to East Midlands airport arriving home at 7 p.m.

I have been to my local hospital where they have given me a tetanus injection and I will have my stitches removed later this week.

I have tried to present only facts but I must venture opinions at this point.

- The safety of spectators is paramount both inside and outside stadia - policing appeared non-existent and, when it did appear, was poorly managed and organised. Innocent spectators should be able to walk to any ground anywhere without fearing for their lives

- Roma fans,as we were told by numerous friendlier Romans, are notorious for this type of attack which is condoned by the inaction of the police and other local officials. This club should be banned until this problem is eradicated.

- I have been contacted by my local branch of the supporters club but have had no contact from Manchester United itself, despite them having every possible detail they might need. I will draw various inferences from this, none of them favourable.

I will in addition to this email be writing to my Member of Parliament, The Minister for Sport, my MEP and UEFA but can confidently predict inaction from all. My days of travelling to away games are over due to this incident and I look forward to the day when my fellow Reds are accorded the decency and safety they have the right to expect on their travels

Yours,

xxx xxxxxx

― The Boyler, Thursday, 12 April 2007 15:37 (eighteen years ago)

I was talking about organised, mutual stuff rather than nasty attacks on lone reds.

Still, all very shitty. I guess our shared politics kept us safe against Lazio, but Milan was a cracking trip so hopefully your semi will pass off okay.

― Pete W, Thursday, 12 April 2007 15:48 (eighteen years ago)

Cor, Spurs getting fucked Roma style inside 7 minutes.

What exactly have I done to deserve this frequency of David Pleat commentary on ITV? I don't recall murdering any infants recently.

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Thursday, 12 April 2007 18:54 (eighteen years ago)

"fucked Roma style" possibly insensitive in above context, I mean they are 2-0 down, obv

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Thursday, 12 April 2007 19:03 (eighteen years ago)

It's purely personal preference. I've found the cultural cringe to the Italian style of football grating, when my memory of watching a live game every week for about 4 years - even at its height in the early-to-mid 90s - was that it was really quite dull. I also couldn't find a team to support despite vaguely trying to get into Bologna, Parma, Roma and latterly Chievo Verona. Maybe that doesn't help.
[/i

I can understand why someone who hasn't grown up with Italian football would not appreciate the Serie A of the 90s, even though it was by far the best league in Europe at the time, but that's no reason to knock it now. It's a totally different league these days where there is more emphasis on attacking and scoring goals. The Premiership has taken the exakt opposite route, although many fans don't see it cause the game is still so full of pace. Anyway, I'd rather watch the Serie A of the 90s rather than the Premiership of the 90s full of long ball fests and hackers and sly foulers(those things are still alive and well in the Premiership actually).

[i]But in that time, and in years of watching the CL, especially when Juventus were a dominant force, nothing has disuaded me that Inzaghi is Italy's Andy Cole. His strike rate was poor (in terms of shots/goals), his strikes were more often than not unconvincing, in that he actually seemed to mishit them in the vague direction of the net, which confounded keepers who read his shots as if they would be cleanly struck. Sure, he's scored a lot of goals, but look at (say) what a top class striker like Van Nistelrooy does - he's just below a goal a game in the CL, whereas Andy Cole never got near that. The thing isn't how many he's scored, it's how many he didn't, and the manner of those he did. There's always been poachers, and Inzaghi is indeed a master, but maybe it's personal preference

Sure, so do I. Henry, Sheva, Eto etc are much more fun to watch than Pippo or Ruud, but that doesn't take away their achievements. There are room for all types of strikers and they should be celebrated for what they do well, and what strikers like Pippo do well is score goals. Don't forget that Pippo scored 24 goals for Atalanta in mid 90s. So he was capable of scoring lots of goals without top class service, even in the 90s when the Serie A was at its most defensive. Give the man some respect ffs.

― Lovelace, Friday, 13 April 2007 10:07 (eighteen years ago)

I don't hate Italy or Italian football (though I hate the image of both as somehow superior and sophisticated amongst cultural cringers here) but I'll confess I have a grave problem with a football culture where stadiums are infested with nazi racists, and that's just the police, and where indiscriminate baton charges are an acceptable policing strategy, and where the more violent ultras reassure themselves that 'stab in the bum, no harm done' is a reasonable way to great visitors.

That's of course really sad but it's not like I'm gonna stop loving Italian football just because a small minority of fans(and yes they are powerfull) are right-wing and/or crimimal. It should be dealt with but not on the expensive of vibrant and beautiful tifosi culture. There's nothing like it in the Premiership, and it would be ashame if the stadiums in Italy would start to resemble the atmosphere at the Emirates, Stamford Bridge and Old Trafford.

I also think that to say that the top three leagues are the same class is no longer tenable. Serie A is in a bad way. Inter caved to Valencia, Roma were pulverised by Man Utd, and Milan were helped by their inability to realise Podolski can't shoot, an extremely dodgy penalty and Seedorf having a good game at the age of 98.

Inter caved? Did you even see those two games? It was Valencia who played the catenaccio like football and Inter completely dominated, especially in the first game. But, and this is a reason why football is so great, the best team don't always win. So Milan didn't win because they played a great game? You must be insane. You could then just as easilly make the same argument about Man Utds win. They won because Roma was so crap! Or not...obviously. The Kaka penalty was a 50-50 decision. Before that incident Milan was denied a clear penalty and Gilardino's goal was ruled out for offside when the reply clearly showed that it was a goal, and he recieved a yellow card for shooting the ball into the net. So I think you can hardly claim Milan were lucky in the first game.

The league has always had a big three, but the craxy spending of Cragnotti, Sensi, Tanzi et al made the league much deeper. That's gone. Add to the fact that the top three earn 15-20 times more than the rest through their mediaset deal, and that strength in depth is failing very quickly, as the finances become untenable. You can also add that the side-deals to half-share player ownership are a nice way of keeping people in line; at one stage, Juventus owned half of 7 or 8 players for Siena which is, well, shall we say less than ideal.

And Premiership had only had the big 2 (Man Utd and Arsenal) before Roman took over the club and made Chelsea the best team in the league with his crazy spending. So don't try and knock the Serie A with those arguements. But that depth you are talking about is coming back. Roma and Fiorentina have once again reached the top. Fiorentina would've played in the CL this year was it not for the points deduction. Sure you could say that the Premiership have the big four now but neither Arsenal nor Liverpool has even come close to winning the league in recent years. So I'd say the depth between the two leagues are similar.

The Premiership is by faaaaar a much better run league, I'll give you that. But that doesn't mean I'd rather watch it. Italy has a lot to learn from England, but not on the pitch! :)

No, you just said that other teams have divers too and therefore we shouldn't criticise.´

Yes, but I wasn't defending Gilardino, I was defending Milan. Boyler called Milan cheaters and used Gilardinos dive as evidence(or so I thought) of his claims. So that's why mentioned divers in other teams.

― Lovelace, Friday, 13 April 2007 10:08 (eighteen years ago)

I once again fucked up the emphasised text in the first of the two posts, but I'm sure you'll recognize which is your own writing anyway.

― Lovelace, Friday, 13 April 2007 10:10 (eighteen years ago)

Boro's efforts last season notwithstanding the inability of second/third tier Premiership clubs to go further in the UEFA Cup regularly does suggest they have much to learn from their Spanish counterparts. The differences in game style do not help and this cost Tottenham with dodgy penalty decisions (both those given and those not give, tho the latter are harder to explain).

― blueski, Friday, 13 April 2007 10:30 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, but I wasn't defending Gilardino, I was defending Milan. Boyler called Milan cheaters and used Gilardinos dive as evidence(or so I thought) of his claims. So that's why mentioned divers in other teams.

Does Kaka's "50/50 decision" make Milan diving cheats? How many diving cheats does a team need before it reflects on the entire team?

― onimo, Friday, 13 April 2007 10:34 (eighteen years ago)

Vibrant and beautiful tifosi culute? I just don't see it. I see a culture which has consistently chosen the wrong path until it's almost too rotten to see a path back. The excuses given are the same many fans used to give about hoolies here; they're just exuberant, they're passionate about their team etc etc. The answer, in both England 20 years ago, and Italy now, is that the vibrant culture has tolerate something really, really vile, and unlike England, there's no sense that people really recognise this. The shame would be that what elements there are that are worth saving will probably be lost because the tifosi culture makes the wrong choice.

Until you can stop the stabbings, the chucking shite at people (from bottles to mopeds to piss), stop the racism and neo-nazi shit, then one can't help feel that there's a tolerance of this thing, and it's very hard to feel anything but antagonism to anything that tolerates that sort of thing.

As for my post on Inzaghi urging me to show him some repsect, I think I, er won't. If iccle Pippo is taking a break from counting his wodge to browse ilx and enter suicidal torpor at my barbs, then I'll obviously email the bugger. But get a grip. It's football. It's a messageboard. It's opinions.

You've also completely misunderstoof my point about Serie A, and act as if I'm some sort of Premiership shill. I wasn't comparing the PL with Serie A in a favourable light (as any search for previous posts on the subject of the PL would demonstrate) but that Serie A was entering the bad time. You can't sustain the income distribution from TV that's there, and the big clubs are fighting very hard against the idea that there should be a return to colelctive selling. You mention Fiorentina, when their initial demise was a clear case in point of the problems with keeping up with the big three. That they got back so soon was in part testament to the law of unintended consequences that Lodo Petrucci has brought in (see Torino for another one) and also the fact that they got promoted on the back of others not being to be promoted due to 'irregularities@ (that word again!) with Serie B. You say 'would have been in the CL had they not been deducted points. IN other words, their position last year was based on cheating. Or is it just the same-old idea that you're a fool to not try to get away with as much as you can in Italian football? And before you decide that this is some Italianophoic rant, it's an idea I got from Gabriele Marcotti and Gianluca Vialli, those well known haters of Italy.

― The Boyler, Friday, 13 April 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)

Inzaghi actually amazes me. I love watching him play precisely because he looks so awful. Everytime I see him play I am gobsmacked that he manages to score so many goals when he plays, ..well crap to be honest, no control, can't pass, weak shot, always offside etc In fact he, along with Zlatan, are probably the 'worst' really good players I've ever seen.
As for the Kaka pen vs Bayern, didn't think it was a pen didn't think it was a dive.

― pandemic, Friday, 13 April 2007 19:53 (eighteen years ago)

Subs: Kuszczak, Evra, Solskjaer, Dong, Richardson, Cathcart, Eagles
United looking a bit threadbare. I've never even heard of Cathcart.
-- Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 19:40

Ah well, apparently Cathcart (whoever he may be) has joined the list of the injured along with Richardson, so the bench tomorrow is likely to feature Chris Eagles, Fang Zhou Dong, Kieran Lee and Michael Barnes.

At the risk of getting it completely wrong again, I predict a goalfest tomorrow. Milan will have taken one look at United's defence and decided to pummel them and try and get as many away goals as possible before shutting up shop back at the San Siro, while United are incapable of defending so will just have to go all-out attack.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

dong's gonna get a hat-trick.

― ken c, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

Apparently Dong is good (IN TRAINING) but all the players think he is a tosser.

― admrl, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

That's the thing, United still have Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Carrick, Ronaldo and Smith which is enough to be getting on with. They really need to just pummel Milan and hope their makeshift defence holds up (which it probably won't).

― Matt DC, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:43 (eighteen years ago)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42836000/jpg/_42836335_ferguson203.jpg

― admrl, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:43 (eighteen years ago)

I think everyone is being unfair to Wes Brown, he's looked alright.

― admrl, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42836000/jpg/_42836335_ferguson203.jpg
http://www.webmark.com/monumentsconservancy/2006/images/pope.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

rofl

― admrl, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.profbob.com/images/Pope%20Benedict.jpg

― onimo, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

wes brown was being murdered for 45 minutes in the second half of the sheffield united game.

― ken c, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

Didn't see that game. I still think he's a decent squad player. He'll probably go and get a groin injury now because he loves to copy Rio.

― admrl, Monday, 23 April 2007 17:23 (eighteen years ago)

This ITV commentary is unbearable.

― Alba, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:02 (eighteen years ago)

dear Mr Tyldesley, please to be retiring now

ta

― Porkpie, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

milan's night rooned

― ken c, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

That second Kaka goal is going to be on highlight reels for ages, isn't it?

― Alex in SF, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

Aye, great assist from Evra taking Heinze out :)

Cracking tie all round. Shame about Gatusso's injury putting Milan on the back foot a bit.

I still find it hard to believe Celtic beat Man U and took Milan to extra time - on current form I wouldn't take us to beat Kaka.

― onimo, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:52 (eighteen years ago)

'The history of Old Trafford is made on the pitch, not in the boardroom' - Tyldesley with a particularly cockfarmerish cockfarmery from a superb farmer of cock.

Also see 'Behind every great man there's a pushy wife'.

― The Boyler, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:54 (eighteen years ago)

And Pleat describing Gattuso's Scottish wife as meaning there was an English connection. All the bleedin' same in the dark when you're kerb crawling eh Pleaty?

― The Boyler, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:56 (eighteen years ago)

Cracking game, but everyone on ITV was getting a bit carried away - Milan won't be too unhappy with two away goals.

(xpost - the Tildesley one that had me throwing cushions at the TV was "Ancelotti said Man Utd were predictable - going 1-0 up inside five minutes against Italian opposition, that predictable enough for you?")

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:56 (eighteen years ago)

Still, at least they don't employ Shearer as a pundit.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

It was so bad! Before Kaka scored, there was this absurd premature triumphalism about the whole thing. The aforementioned "predicable?" comment and "'Attack, attack' cheer the fans. It's the only way Manchester United know how to play", his voice breaking on the "play".

Almost redeemed by his bizarre lusting after Maldini, though.

Second half, Man U were terrific though.

― Alba, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:00 (eighteen years ago)

Before Kaka scored, there was this absurd premature triumphalism

OTM. And then after he'd scored, Our Clive swung completely the opposite way. From the way the commentary was going towards half-time you'd have thought United were 3-0 down, whereas the first half had been pretty much 50/50 until the last five minutes when United looked a bit ragged.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:04 (eighteen years ago)

Only two things are certain in this world:

Dida will always fuck upp

and

Milan can't keep a lead.

Oh, and a third thing:

Kaka -------> C Ronaldo

― Lovelace, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:11 (eighteen years ago)

"'Attack, attack' cheer the fans. It's the only way Manchester United know how to play",

kind of true though, based on tonight's performance.. they certainly couldn't defend

― ken c, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:17 (eighteen years ago)

Which we knew in advance. The worst thing United could have done was try to keep it tight.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)

Roonaldo both excellent tonight.

― blueski, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:36 (eighteen years ago)

It was all about Gattuso going off tonight. With that extra space, suddenly Carrick and Scholes were transformed players, getting everywhere, putting some great passes together. That half-pass-half-chip from Scholes to Rooney was absolutely sublime - most skilful English player of his generation surely?

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:40 (eighteen years ago)

I thought Ronaldo was poor - he kept trying to beat them on his own, and running past one too many men, and kept doing tricksy flicks which his teammates couldn't read giving the ball straight back to Milan. Fletcher was superb after Gattuso went off, but I have a nagging fear that Scholes will get another yellow and miss his second final.

― The Boyler, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:56 (eighteen years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6582735.stm

they used the same photo!

― ken c, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:42 (eighteen years ago)

Paul Aaron Scholes is a superstar footballer.

― admrl, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 03:35 (eighteen years ago)

That Darren Fletcher is going places. He's befuddled two straight Italian squads with his sheer Scottishness.

― mercurialblonde, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 05:09 (eighteen years ago)

Very enjoyable last night. Think Man U were lucky that Gattuso was injured really, they weren't making much progress before then and it reminded me of watching them against Boro and Portsmouth, kinda jaded looking.

Having said that Milan probably should have kept going forward, there was a period before United's second goal where they had 10 men across the box practically and kept giving the ball back to Man U.

Absolutely terrified now coming up to tonight's game.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 09:18 (eighteen years ago)

Oh yeah and Tyldsley is such a complete twat yes. Remember he even started ranting on about comparisons to '99 at one point. "Italian teams in quarter finals and semis, games played with round ball and red jerseys featured"

My TV was broken and I had to retune RTE everytime I wanted to watch it, which was only worth doing for the Dunphy/Giles/Brady halftime whingefest.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 09:21 (eighteen years ago)

I've given up defending Tyldesley now. He was a great radio commentator 15 years ago but last night was fist-bitingly bad. Great game though - what the kids let me see of it.

Will Chelsea maintain their recent record of three wins per season over Liverpool? I'd like to think so. 3-1 agg, I reckon: 2-1 tonight and 1-0 at Anfield. Utd to sneak a 1-1 draw in Milan.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 09:42 (eighteen years ago)

sorry mike but i'll be secretly hoping liverpool will win by a goal that maybe or maybe not have passed the goalline again, just because it'll be funny to see mourinho get upset.

milan will win the whole thing anyway, they'll go down 3-0 and then come back to win on penalties.

― ken c, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 11:07 (eighteen years ago)

i think Benitez has been baited by Jose's endless stream of school-yard provocation into playing a more open, attacking game. given their success with it in the past, Liverpool should probably have stuck with grinding out the goalless draw at Stamford Bridge. as it is, they're lucky to only be 1-0 down. Cole J is getting lots of room running on from midfield and could've had a hat-trick if his teammates had been a bit sharper.

― Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 19:27 (eighteen years ago)

guys i only saw the last half but that was kind of boring???

― river wolf, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

yes

― admrl, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

It was a chess game. Lots going on under the surface.

― admrl, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

cor, Gavin Peacock got it bang on (1-0 J Cole).

― blueski, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

Why in the name of god did he play Zenden? What is it with Benitez and weird team selections in big games? Was so similar to the 2005 final, a surprising and wrong team selection and an awful first half.

Lucky they didn't lose 3-0. Alonso doesn't deserve to play in this kind of game on current form, at least Sissoko would have won the ball, and Alonso's great passing ability seems to have vanished.

Bellamy meanwhile is just worthless and shouldn't have started either.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 21:08 (eighteen years ago)

I quite like Sissoko. *eep*

Thoughts: Liverpool should fancy it at Anfield. Stamford Bridge, a bit quiet?

― admrl, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 21:10 (eighteen years ago)

i also like sissoko, and also think that anfield should give pool more than one goal

― river wolf, Thursday, 26 April 2007 02:23 (eighteen years ago)

I thought Liverpool were a bit unadventurous last night. They often got the ball forward, but they never had the numbers forward to get hold of it. There were far too many crosses or long crossfield passes just bouncing around into empty spaces and then off the pitch.

I liked the ref's complete intolerance of anyone rolling around on the floor or whinging to him, but I'm not convinced he was getting it right most of the time. Lampard was right to complain about a blatant handball and Crouch seems especially hard done by: every time he jumps up for a 50/50 ball he gets a free-kick given against him for some reason (on one occasion Drogba went looking for him so that he could back himself under Crouch at the crucial moment and somehow get awarded a foul).

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 26 April 2007 08:37 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah there was a tiny number of chances last night but come on, did anyone expect Chelsea v Liverpool pt 432 to be a classic? Zenden was woeful, I was amazed he lasted the full 90, Arbeloa terrible as well. The thing is Chelsea didn't play very well either.

On this evidence you'd think the winner of Man Utd v Milan would go on to win the thing but of course it doesn't work like that.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 26 April 2007 08:55 (eighteen years ago)

zenden was so crap that after a while the chelsea ppl didn't even bother marking him

― ken c, Thursday, 26 April 2007 09:22 (eighteen years ago)

he is infuriating. plus I feel mark gonzalez has played well enough recently.

― Ronan, Thursday, 26 April 2007 09:28 (eighteen years ago)

Or Pennant for that matter?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 26 April 2007 09:43 (eighteen years ago)

Good God above, will Mourinho please shut the fuck up: http://football.guardian.co.uk/championsleague200607/story/0,,2065737,00.html. Last night it was a handball, but nowhere near the box. Two years ago the ball may or may not have crossed the line, but if the ref hadn't given the goal he would have given a penalty which would almost certainly have been a goal and Chelsea would have been down to ten men for the rest of the match.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 26 April 2007 10:22 (eighteen years ago)

Joe Cole = Diver of the Year Award (yet again)

― Tom D., Thursday, 26 April 2007 10:23 (eighteen years ago)

but Drogba's played a lot more

― blueski, Thursday, 26 April 2007 10:56 (eighteen years ago)

AGGER DO

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:08 (eighteen years ago)

Ooh, nice spot by ITV in half-time analysis: Kuyt fouls Mikkel to give Agger the space for the shot.

― Ranking Rupert, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:40 (eighteen years ago)

of course, they haven't needed to highlight the fact that Ashley cole is a dirty little fucker and that Joe Cole may have a slight gravity problem, as we knew that already.

― Porkpie, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

...meh...

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 20:41 (eighteen years ago)

Chelsea have done fuck all - Cech's had to make a few good saves/blocks.

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

PUT YOUR HANDS UP FOR DIRK KUYT oh wait don't.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

fucking hell

― ken c, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:14 (eighteen years ago)

chelsea are going to win it aren't they?

― ken c, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:14 (eighteen years ago)

Oops.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:15 (eighteen years ago)

Gerrard to miss!

― Suedey, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:17 (eighteen years ago)

lol at rafa in meditation position

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:19 (eighteen years ago)

He's using his mind powers!

― Suedey, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:19 (eighteen years ago)

On Robben!

― Suedey, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:19 (eighteen years ago)

Geremi was one of those "missed it before he hit it" ones

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)

blimey

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:23 (eighteen years ago)

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:23 (eighteen years ago)

Wheeee!

― Suedey, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:23 (eighteen years ago)

lol at john terry crying

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:24 (eighteen years ago)

right, who's driving me to Athens?

tears, chest pains, sore throat

I fucking love Liverpool

― Porkpie, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:24 (eighteen years ago)

Oh, just fuck off football.

― Michael Jones, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:25 (eighteen years ago)

please not Milan (i'm sure they'll be there now)

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:25 (eighteen years ago)

Hahaha. I love bad things happening to Mourinho.

― ailsa, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:26 (eighteen years ago)

have Chelsea actually played poorer than that at any other point this season?

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:26 (eighteen years ago)

LONDON – World-renowned football (or, to North Americans, soccer) coach Jose Mourinho was one of the thousands in attendance as Raw invaded Earls Court.

Widely considered the best coach in the game, Mourinho has led the Chelsea Football Club to consecutive Premiere League titles (2005, 2006), and was also named by the International Federation of Football History and Statistics (IFFHS) as the world’s best football coach in both 2004 and 2005.

Prior to his first live WWE event, Mourinho expressed why attending Raw was so special to him.

“WWE came to my house because of them,” he said, pointing to his children, Matilde and Jose. “For me, it’s great to be with my kids, and to be around the people they admire very much; I think that is very cool.”

Longtime Chelsea fan Todd Grisham was thrilled to grab a snapshot with one of his idols.

“I try to go to Chelsea games every time I’m in London,” said Grisham. “It was great to get a photo with Jose Mourinho. He’s basically the Bill Parcells of soccer out here; every team from Spain to Portugal to China wants him to be their coach.”

Much like the National Football League’s Parcells, Mourinho is also known for his confident coaching style and ability to respond to people who question his authority with brash quips. But a few weeks ago while traveling with his team, the Chelsea coach ran into SmackDown’s Chris Benoit. Once he was introduced to how massive the WWE Superstars are in person, that notorious swagger shrunk, and his mouth was zipped.

“I realized that Chris Benoit’s hand is stronger than my leg. So, I don’t want to mess with any of [the Superstars]; I just want to be friends,” he joked.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:26 (eighteen years ago)

BIGTIME

― river wolf, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:26 (eighteen years ago)

ailsa OTM.

― Frogman Henry, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:27 (eighteen years ago)

well they didn't score any deflected goals tonight

xxxpost

― ken c, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:27 (eighteen years ago)

Exciting end to an absolute shite game - 120 minutes of "knock it up to the big guy". Hopefully the other two teams in the tournament remember what the grass is for and why the ball is round.

― onimo, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:27 (eighteen years ago)

Matt DC's looking a bit of a fool for naming this thread thusly.

Sorry dad :(

― Mark C, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:28 (eighteen years ago)

i only caught the second half, and while it was a lot of hoof it up to the big lad, the stakes kept it interesting. see also offy mcoffsides

― river wolf, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:28 (eighteen years ago)

Hopefully the other two teams in the tournament remember what the grass is for.

don't worry i think rio ferdinand is due back.

― ken c, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:29 (eighteen years ago)

I was out doing other things tonight and only saw the extra time and penalties. That was enough. Would've been better if Robbie Fowler had scored as soon as he came on.

(PS commentator, we aren't all wishing for an all-English final, you know)

― ailsa, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

Would've been better if Robbie Fowler had scored as soon as he came on.

i was hoping the same thing

― river wolf, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

Matt DC's looking a bit of a fool for naming this thread thusly.

Oh, I dunno. It's definitely half-right.

I found myself hurling insults at the crowd tonight - twats in badges, that Einstein/Pythagoras banner, people waving cardboard European Cups. Honestly, they are just the absolute worst. The Liverpool fans I know personally drag the average up hugely but, still...

Neville winner in Athens. Not sure whose net.

― Michael Jones, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:35 (eighteen years ago)

(PS commentator, we aren't all wishing for an all-English final, you know)

but why would you particularly want a rematch of the 05 final? esp. with Utd. probably being the best team to watch of the final 4.

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:41 (eighteen years ago)

because I want Celtic to have gone out to the eventual winners so I can console myself with the fact that we'd have gone further if ~~we hadn't played with Sno and Jarosik~~ we hadn't come up against the best team in Europe too early on in the competition. Yay logic.

― ailsa, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:48 (eighteen years ago)

For my sins I found myself wanting Liverpool to win, same as two years ago. However, I would rather United went out against Milan tomorrow than get to the final and lose to that lot.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:49 (eighteen years ago)

Also, the 2005 final was great, wtf? Why wouldn't you want that again?

― ailsa, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:49 (eighteen years ago)

i strongly doubt it would go the same way.

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:50 (eighteen years ago)

and i wouldn't care who won if it was Utd v Liverpool personally.

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:50 (eighteen years ago)

i kind of want to see milan win.

i mean, tonight was bad enough watching a premiership game pretending to be a Champions League semi final.

― ken c, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:53 (eighteen years ago)

the last time milan won it wasn't too thrilling either. it's been a while since a real corker between liverpool and man u tho perhaps.

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:03 (eighteen years ago)

If United do get to the final, I think it will pass off peacefully. Tens of thousands of supporters of both clubs will board the same flights from the north-west to Athens and then spend a few sun-soaked days drinking moderately and sensibly while taking in the local culture and historical sites and making friends with the police force. The night of the final will see them forming giant congas on the way to the stadium. No segregation will be necessary, as all fans will applaud goals from either side in what will become known as 'The Friendly Final'. In fact the boundaries between the clubs will become blurred forever as they merge together to become The North-West Reds.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:05 (eighteen years ago)

In fact the boundaries between the clubs will become blurred forever as they merge together to become The North-West Reds.

It's nice to see two American football teams get on that well.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:08 (eighteen years ago)

interesting 'english club vs italian club = TROUBLE' but 'english club vs english club = MORE TROUBLE' logic afoot

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:12 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think it's so much English club vs English club, rather two specific English clubs who don't like each other very much vs each other.

― ailsa, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:20 (eighteen years ago)

I'd still rather see Liverpool vs AC Milan because I've seen lots of Liverpool v Man Utd games and I don't really need another one right now. Also, Clive Tyldesley.

― ailsa, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:21 (eighteen years ago)

United fans on piss on Euro away for two days + Liverpool fans on piss on Euro Away for two days + Athens police = death in them there hills.

It's bad enough when they kick off at 12.30 in the afternoon with everyone fucking off back down the East Lancs Road. It would be utter carnage.

― The Boyler, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:36 (eighteen years ago)

Matt DC's looking a bit of a fool for naming this thread thusly.

I didn't name this thread! It was originally 'Liverpool won't win the Premiership 2006/07' but someone renamed it.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:37 (eighteen years ago)

La la la!

― Stevie T, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:52 (eighteen years ago)

Did Dave B ever do that naked Liverpool run from a couple of years back?

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:53 (eighteen years ago)

In his dreams every night, yeah.

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:54 (eighteen years ago)

what a night! 2 hours of pain but all worth it in the end. I still can't really believe they did it. I've been sick since a few weeks after the last final, I sort of believe, in a ridiculous way, that if Liverpool win the CL this year I might feel better.

that said, watching the game tonight I couldn't breathe and thought I might faint a few times!

― Ronan, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:58 (eighteen years ago)

"We were the best team today, even against a team only playing for the Champions League."

so lame

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:43 (eighteen years ago)

His press conference was worse than usual tonight. Chelsea were pretty crap and didn't create many chances even though they had a lot of possession. I wanted the interviewer to say "but Liverpool were trying to win the game, they did win the game so their efforts succeeded"

― Ronan, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:47 (eighteen years ago)

The stage is set for JOS 22

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 03:53 (eighteen years ago)

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 03:58 (eighteen years ago)

Apparently, a helicopter carrying some Chelsea officials took off last night from Liverpool airport, scheduled for Cambridgeshire, and did not arrive. Police now involved.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 08:27 (eighteen years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6614347.stm

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 08:49 (eighteen years ago)

The news on tv is reporting it's a helicopter of a wealthy chelsea supporter.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 08:52 (eighteen years ago)

Part of me died forever when Geremi came on. We were awful.

― Dr.C, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 08:55 (eighteen years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6610157.stm
Mourinho insists Chelsea were the better team and were the only team who tried to win it in extra time. I must've been watching a different match.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 08:57 (eighteen years ago)

Catching this about halfway through, the lovely Emma B and I were confused at the score being 1-0 at the end, but the two teams still playing 30 minutes of extra time. I am sure there's a "clever" explanation that has to do with aggregate goals scored in the tournament, etc. but it's sort of weird.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 08:59 (eighteen years ago)

not much creativity on show at all

cech seemed wooden in the shootout

― 600, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 09:03 (eighteen years ago)

in the CL they play the knock out stages over two games. Chelsea won 1-0 at their home ground so Liverpool winning 1-0 at theirs made it a draw.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 09:05 (eighteen years ago)

x-post to tracer

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 09:05 (eighteen years ago)

There was some nice passing but both teams seemed to slightly lose their minds once they came near the box, was how I felt about it.

Ah, got it, Ronan. It would work better for the TV graphics to only show that aggregate score, since the score of the particular game you're watching is meaningless.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 09:07 (eighteen years ago)

Well, not meaningless, but only part of the story. Normally they would show the score on the screen a bit like this:

Liv 1 0 Che (Agg 1-1)

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 09:24 (eighteen years ago)

Gah, horrid game. Don't mind losing on pens though, and don't think either side was playing for them. Over the course of the two legs, we had the only real spell of long domination (first half at the Bridge) but fucked it up then.

These two sides should be banned from ever playing each other again.

And both JM and Rafa (his comments seem to get overlooked for some reason) should learn to be a bit more graceful in defeat and victory alike.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:26 (eighteen years ago)

These two sides should be banned from ever playing each other again.

i agree unless it's a single knockout game (FA Cup games between them are usually classic)

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:27 (eighteen years ago)

(his comments seem to get overlooked for some reason)

because he only says things in retaliation for what Mourinho starts. and his ripostes are just a higher class altogether frankly.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:28 (eighteen years ago)

Nasty, that's exactly how they did it. Personally, I'd switch which set of numbers the parentheses go around. To make your eye pay more attention to the set of numbers that's actually controlling events on the field.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:29 (eighteen years ago)

Ferguson's "tut tut poor Ronaldo is not stupid just because he is working class" riposte also fairly hilarious

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:30 (eighteen years ago)

actually rafas words did get attention this week for being 'beneath him' or whatever

― 600, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:32 (eighteen years ago)

Tracer the score of the current game must come first regardless of the type of game. Uniformity maaaaaan.

At least they don't really dumb down by putting an asterisk next to who would go thru on away goals (when this is applicable).

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:32 (eighteen years ago)

I liked when Jose said that Liverpool fans are noisy, but are not cannibals

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:34 (eighteen years ago)

blueski - not entirely true. Rafa started this little spat with his 'I might have shaken hands with Jose but I don't actually like him' stuff. JM had been good as gold till then (though he was probably too busy dealing with Fergie).

The CC final was also pretty good.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:34 (eighteen years ago)

Anyway, pretty sure JM will go this summer, so time for a new bogeyman.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:41 (eighteen years ago)

have any of the betting dudes got odds on who the new manager will be? i lose track of whos linked, everyone probably, the last 3 seemed to be hiddink/hughes/klinsmann, interested to see the actual odds though

― 600, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

without Mourinho Chelsea will be plunged back into the dark days of the Ranieri era.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

they will drop to 2nd

― 600, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

and go out of the champions league at the semifinal stage

― 600, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

they might have to offload their star man Shevchenko for only a tiny fraction of what they paid for him.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:51 (eighteen years ago)

These from March

Next Chelsea Manager

6/5 Hiddink

3/1 Rijkaard

6/1 Scolari

12/1 Eriksson

16/1 Lippi

20/1 Capello

Win only. Others on request.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:52 (eighteen years ago)

80/80 Allardyce

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:53 (eighteen years ago)

Any predictions for tonight? I predict GOALS again, but feel it could go either way. I'll go for a 2-2 draw with United creeping through.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 10:57 (eighteen years ago)

Milan leading 1-0 until the 88th minute, Man Utd score twice late on.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:11 (eighteen years ago)

2-1 Milan (BAH)

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:14 (eighteen years ago)

i also predict GOALS.

i wonder what the market is on total offsides...

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:14 (eighteen years ago)

Ronaldo penalty

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:15 (eighteen years ago)

Will he really go? José, I mean. Seems harsh, all along I've thought the various newspapers saying he is very close to being ousted/leaving were just hyping things up a little, while wondering simultaneously if they had the "inside track" on the whole thing.

I mean, surely getting rid of him is completely stupid?

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:21 (eighteen years ago)

'I mean, surely getting rid of him is completely stupid?'

Oh yeah, but also very Chelsea, where self-destruction and underachievement lurks just beneath the surface.

Tonight? No clue, but a goal for Inzaghi and another for Rooney. And a much much better game than last night.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:26 (eighteen years ago)

I kinda wish Kuyt's goal had stood now. Robben and SWP probably would've been introduced immediately and it would've been a great last 20 minutes. I think Chelsea might've sneaked an away goal.

What was Liverpool's only penalty shootout defeat? And is it available on YouTube?

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:27 (eighteen years ago)

Inzaghi to score dazzling goal via solo run from centre circle after rescuing children form nearby burning orphanage.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:28 (eighteen years ago)

before flying off into the sunset on a pig

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:34 (eighteen years ago)

Boyler, which of the four teams in the Champions League semis do you find the least morally objectionable?

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:36 (eighteen years ago)

Liverpool surely. they love their mums.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:38 (eighteen years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6615493.stm

You save two penalties, what do you get, somebody robs your house and burns your car out

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 12:28 (eighteen years ago)

i like they they name the brand of his entertainment system. Ooh! Bang & Olufesen! do you think they left the CD in there as they took it?

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 12:35 (eighteen years ago)

Liverpool; whilst I've not much time at all for Hicks and Gillette, they've neither joined fascists in Government, raped the Russian people of their wealth, not bought the club on 800M of debt reinforced by massive price rises. Though they're not too far away from the Glazers in terms of deal structure, they've been more assured so far but lets see what they do to prices.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 12:52 (eighteen years ago)

have to say i thoroughly enjoyed last night's game from start to finish. i've fancied chelsea to win the whole thing for some time, so i was a little shocked to see them bow out. now, i will tip liverpool to win the tournament!

riise was particularly tremendous last night, i thought. a genuinely unsung hero. makelele is past it, and should be moved along,

(matt dc and blueski - i sent you both a e-mails via this board the other day, not sure if you use those e-mail addresses, but if you do, could you get back to me on it? if you don't use those addresses, could you mail me from your real ones? mine = kilianDOTmurph✧✧✧@m✧✧✧.d✧✧.i✧ - DOT = . of course!!!)

― Weasel Diesel, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 13:04 (eighteen years ago)

i got the mail but i'm not an admin no more sorry!

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 13:05 (eighteen years ago)

erm ok, i'm obviously not familiar with this new board, so obviously that is not my e-mail address written above. could you mail me via the board anyways?

(oh, sorry steve!)

― Weasel Diesel, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 13:07 (eighteen years ago)

Weasel - I'll check now. If it's the email I think it is then it's been received through another admin.

I didn't see the game and it doesn't seem like I missed much, but I did chuckle at Mourinho spending two weeks moaning about never being awarded penalties, only to finally get what he wished for and watch his team take them like a load of children.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 13:48 (eighteen years ago)

I have to say, I quite like Seedorf. :\

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

Also - yesterday's game. I TiVo'ed it and the recording stopped 5 mins before the end of extra time!!!

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 16:54 (eighteen years ago)

man, you missed the streaker

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

it was Dave B of course

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

Rumbled

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 17:14 (eighteen years ago)

tempo bum squeakky

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 17:17 (eighteen years ago)

i might try watching tonight's game on ITV's website.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

The Glazers are in Milan for their first ever competitive away game.

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)

seedorf has had two fine games since my upthread criticisms, making me look rather silly. he still baffles me a little though; he does some beautiful things, yet i've seen 90 minutes where he's barely touched the ball. which clarence will turn up tonight?

― Weasel Diesel, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 18:04 (eighteen years ago)

Those guys just love their Euro-aways.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 18:32 (eighteen years ago)

Milan have a rocket up their arse here. 1-0.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 18:57 (eighteen years ago)

it's over

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 19:01 (eighteen years ago)

crazy goal to lose

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 19:15 (eighteen years ago)

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/486/PC/SuperStock_486-721.jpg

Heinz and Vidic, yesterday.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 19:17 (eighteen years ago)

which clarence will turn up tonight?

the good one, apparently

― river wolf, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

both of the goals were fucking bullets, and the quality of play makes yesterday's game look totally embarrassing.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

This is like watching a reasonable Championship team play a top premiership team; you know the Champ, team have good players, and have spells of possession and look alright, but you think their best chance is a fuck up by the other team or a set-piece.

Or to put it another way, Gattuso is the difference. That's why they won last week, and unless he gets injured again, they won't go through tonight.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

Milan were easily the better team in that half. United don't seem to fancy it in the rain at all: can't pass straight and can't stand up and don't want to risk tackling. The defence looks inept, but that was to be expected, but it's disappointing that the attacks haven't really got going. Gattuso is bossing this one. (xpost)

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

The only hope is to go all-out attack second half: gamble everything, maybe get a 2-2, maybe lose 5-0, who cares? It's better than the current 'play-it-safe-done-badly' routine. And Scholes needs to stop worrying about the yellow card and start tackling. And someone needs to take out Gattuso. And Kaka. And Heinze needs to remember what the fuck he's supposed to be doing or get substituted.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

The sad truth for United is that Ferguson is a great domestic manager who isn't really up to it at European level.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:05 (eighteen years ago)

i think the sad truth is that meelan have been rather good this evening...

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:20 (eighteen years ago)

Bye bye.

After last night's scintillating display which will have Europe in awe, they will be a-knee-trembling at the tactical nous and man-for-man superiority of the likely English champions.

Best League in... etc

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:21 (eighteen years ago)

Steve - Chris has reserved you a spot at the bar of the Friend At Hand on the 23rd May

― Vicky, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:22 (eighteen years ago)

Revenge is on the cards..

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:23 (eighteen years ago)

noooooooooooeeeeeeeessssssssssss...

only if they're 3-0 down at halftime ;)

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:24 (eighteen years ago)

I shall be installing OSX Tiger

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

no quadrebles this season

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

don't let the arsenal ladies hear you say that! treble already, unbeaten in the league, just the FA Cup to go.

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:29 (eighteen years ago)

RIP the notion of the Premiership being the best league in the world. Heaven needed a fallacy.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:40 (eighteen years ago)

hurrah milan!! it's going to be the best final evah

― ken c, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

That was a really poor United performance. I thought Milan took their goals well, closed down well, kept possession well - did pretty much everything they had to do really (including slowing the game down and timewasting towards the end), but United's passing was woeful and attacking threat almost non-existent.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

RIP the notion of the Premiership being the best league in the world. Heaven needed a fallacy.

but the people who claim it will still do so because there were three english clubs in the semis, plus three in the final over the last three seasons, and one of them even had the audacity to win it!

basically english clubs are doing better in the tournament on the whole - but there's nothing beyond that - it's nothing to do with the domestic league itself.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

this whinging about the Prem is SO FUCKING BORING by now

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:11 (eighteen years ago)

Not as boring as the Prem over a season though eh? Or being a fan of a non-premiership club, knowing you've got little chance of ever making it happen. Apologies for having the fun-hating attitude that this is an ideological project with serious consequences, and deserves to be called.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:13 (eighteen years ago)

Was the Prem in ruins when Man United beat Roma 7-1?

This season was the most exciting I can remember since I started watching football. Perhaps it was better in the 80s.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)

Also since when has a team owned by an Italian media magnate beating Man U got anything to do with smaller non-premiership clubs? Milan really struck a blow for the little guy tonight!

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:25 (eighteen years ago)

This seems like a bit of a straw man thing to me. Who exactly are these supposed multitudes claiming the Premiership is TEH BESTEST LEAGUE EVAH TM? The only time you hear that comment is from Sky, who have a product to sell and notoriously hype it. It's not a debate I've ever had with my mates. I have no idea what the best league is and I don't care. I almost never watch league matches from other countries anyway.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:29 (eighteen years ago)

Results 1 - 10 of about 26,200 for "best league in the world" premiership. (0.10 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 797 for "best league in the world" "la liga". (0.15 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 480 for "best league in the world" scudetto. (0.36 seconds)

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

To Ronan - I was pointing out that my anti-PL vibe was motivated by the effect it has on the thing called English football. This season has been better than the last two, and if you factor in Arsenal's procession 3 years ago, probably further. But if you say that (say), 1995, 1996, 1998 and 1999 were comparatively exciting, then now, then it suggest to me a league that sneered far too long at the SPL whilst in the midst of becoming it in all intents and purposes.

The PL wasn't in ruins after Roma, and isn't on many counts. It was just that the hype was given yet another bombastic shot in the arm after that match, which thankfully, tonight got the rich treatment it deserved. The greatest manager of the last 20 years just isn't very good at this level, comparatively speaking. The greatest club in England have paid the price for being run by the Glazers. Milan were so utterly dominant tonight it was embarrassing for United, TBH.

xpost - Sky? Every newspaper all the time? 90% of pundits on TV and radio? Politicians? Football clubs, their owners and officials? Football authorities? I can't say how many beyond this small and uninfluential group buy it, but I'd have thought a fair few.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:35 (eighteen years ago)

Results 1 - 10 of about 255,000 for "English words" apple. (0.13 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 627 for "English words" chorizo. (0.43 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 279 for "English words" funghi. (0.40 seconds)
(xpost)

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:36 (eighteen years ago)

ha ha

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:37 (eighteen years ago)

this argument wasn't happening with 20 minutes to go in last year's final. but everyone agrees the BLITW thing is silly Dave, you're just preaching to the converted! i guess i ignore enough of the media to only notice the slogan when it's implied on Sky the few times I see Sky Sports now.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:41 (eighteen years ago)

sorry to interrrupt, but this fat kid is well worth a moment or two, he ends up getting his tits out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p83RHUm8eWk

― gatinhaaa, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:43 (eighteen years ago)

Boyler, is it possible you're over-emphasising the importance of this 'best league in the world thing' because you are not living in Italy or Spain and being saturated with their own media bias day in day out?

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:47 (eighteen years ago)

Also in what way did United "pay the price for being run by the Glazers" tonight? WE KNOW you're against this stuff. Most of us are too. No need to shoehorn all this in, the Glazers have plenty of time to fuck United up on the pitch, don't jump the gun just yet.

On their day, this Man Utd team could have beaten this Milan team at the San Siro, it just didn't happen. Mostly because Milan were amazing and United were rub. That's all, for now.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:53 (eighteen years ago)

Also in what way did United "pay the price for being run by the Glazers" tonight?

Absolutely. I was wondering if anyone was going to bring that up (no offense, Boyler). The next six months will be much more telling than the last year in terms of what these clueless mongs hath wrought.

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 21:56 (eighteen years ago)

No, because I couldn't give a shit about what the effect is outside the UK (ie, which really is the best league in the world is ultimately meaningless and good for nowt but a good pub debate).

It's the same as bollocks about London being open to capital clows, and russian millionaires coming here with oodles of cash to inflate property prices is great for us; we're being invited to take some form of patriotic pride in something that has serious consequences, and that idea of BLITW is continually used to justify why nothing can, and indeed, should change about this.

xpost -

Net spending since the Glazers took over = -1M
Players out on long-term loan = 28

The next 6 months will be important, but with then having to pay back 1M to the banks every 4 and a half days, every day is important, but as far as the footballocracy is concerned, there has been no effect whatsoever (AKA stop worrying pretty little heads about this irrelevant rubbish).

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:05 (eighteen years ago)

eh? those figures prove fuck all. united have hardly been grasping for money in glazerville - carrick was signed at cost, its only the mikel farrago that's offset that favourably - and otherwise, who's fergie wanted to buy ? evra and vidic (10-12m together btw) needed a year to bed down, and got it. his squad was there as he wished, and he'll surely get the money for hargreaves and whoever else in the summer too.

god knows what loaning out youth players like has happened (since the dawn of bloody time) is supposed to be indicative of either

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:30 (eighteen years ago)

I think he was suggesting it was to offset their wages, but I don't know, how much do you think Chris Eagles or Guiseppe Rossi get paid? (I don't actually know the answer to this)

― admrl, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:32 (eighteen years ago)

good job Milan were allowed to play in this tournament after all otherwise poor Liverpool would look silly turning up in Athens with no-one to play arf.

both this year's finalists actually finished third in their respective league divisions last season. cuh!

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:32 (eighteen years ago)

honestly, joking aside, claiming that all english clubs are completely, incomparably useless based on the past couple of days really is the exact same vain blinkered shite as any BLITW booster.

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:38 (eighteen years ago)

The Premiership just isn't much of a competition - that's the most obvious thing that's wrong with it. We've never had NFL-style sporting-socialism drafts in English football - there's always been that gulf between big city and small town, have and have-nots - but there was a time when it was still possible for an Ipswich, a Leeds, a Derby County, a Nott'm Forest to come up from the second tier and win the league title. Just through some smart scouting of players, effective tactics, judicious use of limited resources and a sprinkling of genius motivational coaching. Not through insane cash injections. Even my beloved Everton - from relegation candidates to Cup winners, league champions, European success in the space of 18 months with, what, maybe two additions to a modest all-British/Irish squad (Gray & van den Hauwe)? Just couldn't happen now.

I just think that pattern of English league football was better, more exciting, less predictable, than four wealth-saturated super-brands shuffling about. I'm sure I say this because I don't support one of them.

On the comparatively even playing-field of '70s/'80s soccer, one is reminded what a staggering achievement Paisley's Liverpool was - they were never the biggest spenders but they acheived sustained success unprecedented in the pre-Premiership model. (I say Paisley - obviously Shankly was the architect but didn't necessary win significantly more than Revie's Leeds, Nicholson's Spurs, Mee's Arsenal, Catterick's Everton, Busby's Man Utd...)

I have been drinking. With a Liverpool fan. We spent ages looking up Liverpool's only penalty shootout defeat. Wimbledon, Dec '93, League Cup replay.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:42 (eighteen years ago)

To be fair to Dave, there was a cover piece in Time about the rise of the Premiership that enraged more than ANY ARTICLE ABOUT FOOTBALL I HAVE EVER READ INCLUDING THOSE BY IAN WRIGHT AND DAVID PLEAT.

It really did encapsulate quite what we're dealing with here. I post the last sentence when I get to my desk tomorrow.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:43 (eighteen years ago)

what is motivating Seville's big title push this season? big cash influx or pure gumption? because La Liga is as closed a shop as the Prem in competetive terms usually, surely. if it wasn't for Barca and Real Madrid being such consistent carousels of cock-up for much of this decade it would have been between those two every season just like Man U/Arsenal situ between 96 and 03. as it happened Valencia were able to come up on them as Liverpool have done on the previous big two. Chelsea's situation is just unique and incomparable to anything else really. my point? the two leagues aren't different in terms of how things tend to pan out, resilient hierarchy etc. - Serie A neither. And as better as things may be in the Bundesliga what use is it if Bayern are going to comfortably win year after year?

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:52 (eighteen years ago)

the circumstances change (and this looks bad yes) but the results are pretty much the same as ever.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:54 (eighteen years ago)

Er, have you seen the Bundesliga table, blueski?

Schalke 62pts
Stuttgart 61pts
Werder Bremen 60pts
B Munich 53pts

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:56 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not saying English football is shit. I'm simply saying it's very, very far from all that.

As for the youth players, there's been a qualitative shift from loaning players to lower league English clubs (ala Beckham) to give them first team experience for a few months and long-term loans to anyone who'll have them to clear their wages off the books when they don't immediately fit into a manager's plans. The latter have always existed, and they used to bide time, play in the youth team or the stiffs and hope to make an impact. Now they're being shunted out on a wage-clearance basis.

The Glazers promised £25M of new money a year to spend. Over two years, they're 49M behind their plan. If anyone thinks United haven't suffered for the lack of strength in depth, or that even if they have, the 49M gap has made no impact on that, then good luck to you and send me a postcard from your planet.

As for who ferguson hasn't been able to buy, I'm afraid that not having access to David Gill's telephone logs puts me at a disadvantage, but a disadvantage we all share here.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 22:57 (eighteen years ago)

OK OK but Bayern have won four titles this decade, more than any other club in England, Spain or Italy.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 23:03 (eighteen years ago)

(Anyway, I can't get into arguments about the relative merits of different national league systems because I don't know enough about them. My point, in so far as I had one at all, is that a league of 20-22 clubs is a bit more interesting when it's not practically zoned off into two or three internal tiers before a ball is kicked. Even league winners crashing and burning, like Villa slumping to 11th in '82 or Everton crashing out of the top half in '71, is more intriguing to me than what we currently have).

I don't know why I felt the need to put that whole thought in parentheses.

I should go to bed now.

(Good point well made, blueski. I could murder some toast).

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 23:04 (eighteen years ago)

i just like being a Statto (esp. those times when i actually quote them correctly), pay no mind.

― blueski, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 23:05 (eighteen years ago)

Good night, blueski. Good night, everybody.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 23:07 (eighteen years ago)

yes "a la beckham" lets you get away with an awful lot though doesnt it? i can't see how your wage clearance notion isnt just something twisted together on hindsight - you could have said the same about michael appleton or ben thornley or michael clegg, who were always never good enough but got sent out on long loans just in case, and oh look it's wage clearance in 1994! you crafty time-travelling glazers you! youth systems have always been high turnover, hit & hope lotteries, and even more so today with your feeder clubs and worldwide networks and what have you.

as for whether fergie intended to sign anyone else, then we'll just have to agree to disagree won't we. but again, hellooo hindsight.

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 23:45 (eighteen years ago)

A better measure on competitiveness is top four churn; how many clubs have been in the top four how many times? I've done this for the last 9 seasons:

Germany - 10 clubs, average 3.6 times per club in top 4:

Bayern - 9
Leverkusen - 7
Schalke - 5
Dortmund - 4
Stuttgart - 3
Bremen - 3
Hamburg 3
Kaiserslautern - 2
1860 Munich - 1
Hertha Berlin - 1

Spain - 12 clubs, average 3 times per club

Real Madrid - 8
Barca - 7
Valencia - 5
Depor - 4
Betis - 2
Socidedad - 2
Mallorca - 2
Celta Vigo - 1
Sevilla - 1
Athletic Bilbao - 1
Zaragoza - 1

Italy - 8 clubs, average 4.5 times per club

Juve - 9
Inter - 8
Milan - 7
Lazio - 5
Roma - 4
Parma - 3
Udinese - 2
Fiorentina - 2

England - 7 clubs, average 5.1 times per club

Man Utd - 9
Arsenal - 9
Liverpool - 6
Chelsea - 5
Newcastle - 3
Leeds - 3
Everton - 1

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 23:55 (eighteen years ago)

There's a difference between players being loaned to lower league outfits for short spells or for experience and players being out on long loans to clubs playing at pretty high levels.

Loans out:
Man Utd - 15
Chelsea - 11
Liverpool - 10
Arsenal - 9

― The Boyler, Thursday, 3 May 2007 00:05 (eighteen years ago)

yeah - a positive difference! the longer term loans are clearly better for a player in terms of experience, even more so when it's at a competitive high level. are you seriously trying to tell me that foster & richardson in the premiership, rossi in serie a for a season is less ideal than being bombed into someone's panic situation for a quick month? simpson and wotsit at sunderland have been there for a good long time now as well. also you couldnt even have loans in the same league until a few years ago, certainly way after the beckham days.

― r|t|c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 00:24 (eighteen years ago)

I'm saying that whilst it might be better for those players, and in the short-term, the clubs they're playing for, the idea that this is being done for anything other than the fact that the Glazers are on a cost-slashing strategy isn't tenable.

On top of the 15 loanes, 14 have been moved on, 100 staff of the club have been fired and they now have no cash left (that was all spent by the Glazers on paying their debts off) and have 65M of debt servicing each year. The idea that they were going to get Hargreaves at any point this season because they pursued him was like me saying that I stood a chance with Kate Moss because I sent her a valentines card asking her out.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 3 May 2007 00:36 (eighteen years ago)

and nonwithstanding yr one convenient freak season of future superstars, it was ever thus with loans - a rare few make it, most find their level eventually. that's more than tenable.

bayern sitting on hargreaves and demanding only the ludicrously fullest whack for him is also hardly a stonewall indictment of the glazers contributing to tonight's loss, regardless of any fag packet numbercrunching.

yet again, i have to say i don't doubt the glazers are up to no good. but dodgy skewed bias is surely of bugger all use in discussing that.

― r|t|c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 01:21 (eighteen years ago)

Fag packet numbercrunching? Care to explain?

― The Boyler, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:29 (eighteen years ago)

Loans out:
Man Utd - 15
Chelsea - 11

If Man Utd are loaning out all these players in a desperate attempt to slash their wages bill, what's Chelsea's excuse?

― Ray, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:47 (eighteen years ago)

dave, if pete doherty can shag kate moss, so can you.

― ken c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:58 (eighteen years ago)

Clearly if David Gill had turned up at Owen Hargreaves' house looking like a tramp with an acoustic guitar then he'd be playing in the Premiership right now and United would be on their way to Athens.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:14 (eighteen years ago)

We spent ages looking up Liverpool's only penalty shootout defeat. Wimbledon, Dec '93, League Cup replay.

I was there! Blimey, no idea I was witnessing history. Good game. My best mate got slung out for running on the pitch in celebration when, I think, Segers saved a penalty in extra time. The other guy I was with is about to support the Mary Chain at Meltdown, for which I've just bought tickets. Hurrah!

So, were United soooooo bad they might even lose to shit like City on the weekend? Loving Boyle's doom/gloom scenario.

I have never heard a single person say 'this is the best league in the world' except Boyle.

― Pete W, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:41 (eighteen years ago)

So bad that Man City might score a goal against you, that's a fucking terrifying thought.

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:47 (eighteen years ago)

...I wasn't impressed by Milan in the first leg

-- Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:46 (1 month ago)[/i}

Ha ha, way to go, me!

[i]I have never heard a single person say 'this is the best league in the world' except Boyle.

I take it you mean on ILX, 'cos otherwise you're talkin' yarbles

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:08 (eighteen years ago)

Oops, italic placement misfortune

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:09 (eighteen years ago)

Ah, so many posts since I went to bed, so many issues...

r/t/c - The Glazers have been slashing costs ever since they arrived. One of the first things they did was make loads of staff redundant and far more young players are sent out on loan now than used to be the case. They've spent virtually nothing on transfers since they took over - you can't just say "if it wasn't for Obi Mikel...", you might as well just say "if it wasn't for Carrick, they'd have made a huge profit". They've got away with it so far because Ronaldo has fulfilled his potential and older players like Scholes and Giggs have hit form again for one last hurrah, but they can't expect to spend nothing forever and still have a competitive team.
...BUT...
Boyler - I don't think that had anything to do with last night's result. United's defence was shite, but that's because they're all injured: pre-Glazer they would still have struggled to cope with Kaka with the reserve defence. United's attacking was toothless, but not for lack of players - they had the big names, but they played badly. It happens.
...AND...
Michael - the Premier League *is* boringly uncompetitive nowadays, I think we'd all agree with that.

So, were United soooooo bad they might even lose to shit like City on the weekend?

Well, I said on the Premiership thread it isn't over till it's over. United really, really *should* win the league from this position, but...

a) City supporters seem to define themselves more by their utter hate for Man Utd than any love for their own team. To stop United winning the league would make their year and they've thrashed United three times at home in recent seasons.
b) Chelsea are better than Arsenal and nearly always beat them nowadays.
c) Chelsea have beaten United at Stamford Bridge in the last three seasons.
d) United's final game is against West Ham. The same West Ham who, amidst an ocean of half-arsed lame defeats, somehow got it up to beat United in December. The same West Ham who have suddenly started winning. The same West Ham who will desperately need the points to avoid relegation. The same bastard West Ham who fucked it up for United in 1992 (when they were already relegated) and then did it again in 1995.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:20 (eighteen years ago)

i haven't seen or read a 'best league in the world' claim recently either. SPECIFICALLY, who does claim it in the media?

another fun stat: Utd's heaviest defeat in Europe since the 4-0 to Barcelona in 94/95 season (i think)

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:06 (eighteen years ago)

I think the CL exit will spur Utd on to win the league and quite probably the FA Cup tho (esp. if Chelsea do beat them next week).

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:07 (eighteen years ago)

sigh i'd just be repeating myself now. like geezer says, how do united's loans differ in any way to the arsenal contingent at brum, or the chelsea boys at qpr? everyone's loaning out more kids than they used to. (even then i'm not so sure actually, but let's say for the sake of arg.) if i felt the need to explain what it might all mean then costcutting would be just about the very last reason on the list.

you can't just say "if it wasn't for Obi Mikel...", you might as well just say "if it wasn't for Carrick, they'd have made a huge profit"

does not compute. the 18m was still spent! it might well have only increased the debt, but that's not the issue here is it.

Fag packet numbercrunching? Care to explain?

not really.

could some other people come in and add their tuppence? reasoning with crackpots this long has probably turned me into a crackpot too by now.

― r|t|c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:10 (eighteen years ago)

Michael Carrick = the English Darren Fletcher (have I said this before?)

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:12 (eighteen years ago)

it was fun reading that thing the other week contending that ferg was modelling a carrick/hargreaves axis on pirlo & gattuso.

― r|t|c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:14 (eighteen years ago)

The Glazers will fork out for top players. They're not stupid, they know the value of all that marketing revenue, and the value of appearing in the latter stages of the Champions League every year.

One of the things I wonder is why ticket prices have to go up at all if all the money is really in building a global mega-brand with millions of Asian fans that allows you to make truckloads off TV rights and other sales?

rtc - I've been saying that Gattuso and Pirlo thing for ages! Although I'm sure I'm not alone.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:15 (eighteen years ago)

carrick/hargreaves

That seems more like "gattuso & gattuso (but not as good)" to me.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:16 (eighteen years ago)

That seems more like "gattuso & gattuso (but not as good)" to me.

Only if Gattuso has two sisters who are rubbish at football

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:17 (eighteen years ago)

Porrini and Porrini?

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:19 (eighteen years ago)

the 18m was still spent! it might well have only increased the debt, but that's not the issue here is it.

Yes, but the money spent on Carrick was less than the money received for Van Nistelrooy and Mikel. So no money was spent net. This summer they could sell Ronaldo to Chelsea for £50m, then buy him back again the next day for £50m, then sell him back again the following day for £50m, then buy him back etc., and by the end of the summer they'd have exactly the same squad with Ronaldo still in it, but by your reasoning the would have 'spent' several billion pounds on players.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:20 (eighteen years ago)

Carrick isn't remotely like Gattuso. He's more about spraying the incisive long passes and directing the game then he is about running, tackling and breaking up play.

Unfortunately as yesterday and part of the first leg proved, he can't do that up against a more physical presence in midfield like Gattuso. Carrick really needs a Hargreaves alongside him for games like this, someone else to go and do the running and dirty work and leaving him to play 25-yard passes out to Ronaldo or whoever.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:21 (eighteen years ago)

yeah it just seems like another case of classic bad fergie aping, like how he was ripping off chelsea to terrible effect in previous years. the point of gattuso & pirlo is not that theyre plonked in the middle of a 4-4-2 with wingers bombing around all over the shop!

― r|t|c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:21 (eighteen years ago)

r/t/c - tell you what. Have a look at the accounts for Man Utd, then come back, OK? Until then, consider me a crackpot, and I'll consider you an arrogant know-nothing, which seems a fair swap.

Steve - BLITW stuff is so ubiquitous. Pick any selection of papers from after the CL quarters; any speech from a government minister in which PL officers are in the audience; the most recent report from football's pathetic self-regulatory body; interviews with players / managers / old-pros on radio and TV. Maybe it's because it's part of my job to pretty much read all of these, but it really is pretty full on stuff.

Matt - the Glazers don't need to win; they need to qualify. That's all. They're profit maximisers, not utility maximisers. Ask a Tampa Bay Bucs fan if these guys understand the need to build a great team.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:24 (eighteen years ago)

see you keep saying it's ubiquitous but i'm not actually but show us a specific example! i do not read the papers or watck Sky Sports much as i said.

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:30 (eighteen years ago)

excuse garbled writing there

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:31 (eighteen years ago)

I HAVE NEVER BLEEDING DOUBTED MAN U'S ACCOUNTS ARE IN BAD NICK! ur crackpottery is entirely based on the specious, self-serving reasoning you've used to map that onto yesterday's defeat. and i'm not being arrogant one bit - don't confuse no one being arsed to talk to you with you having convinced anyone of anything.

― r|t|c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:32 (eighteen years ago)

re carrick: again, united having a good business close season for a change is hardly proving anything about the glazers attitude to transfers. ferg sold ruud, not the board, and the mikel money whilst handy in the long run wasnt something accounted for at the time. it's like if i said "ooh look chelsea made 25m this summer, therefore shev only cost 5m! it's all a ruse everyone!" but we'd all know that's cobblers.

― r|t|c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

I'm struggling to see where the reasoning is specious or self-serving. United got caught out because whilst they have a lot of good players, their squad is one of the thinnest to have achieved something in recent years. That squad size was a key factor in them being turned over as the players they put out weren't good enough, individually or collectively.

Their squad size is thin because Ferguson has persisted with some favourites who just aren't up to it. But he's not had the opportunity to change it much either because they've not had the funds to make the kind of additions they've historically made. I'm not saying United lost because of the Glazers. I'm saying a contributory factor can be directly attributed to the Glazers, and I'm struggling to see what seems so hard to grasp.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:42 (eighteen years ago)

do you think Fergie wishes he'd kept Forlan now? ha ha

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

"Best league in the world" - a quick four from the 173 currently on google news.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/134163.html
http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/coca_cola/article2502026.ece
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/sport/story.asp?j=216257684&p=zy6z5839x&t=soccer
http://www.sunderlandtoday.co.uk/news?articleid=2839767

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:48 (eighteen years ago)

To be fair, Man Utd have had a paper thin squad for three or four years now, it's not a post-Glazer thing at all. Of course, the Glazers are hardly likely to help but still.

And actually Man Utd have a decent-sized collection of senior defenders, seven or eight of them. That's enough by most club's standards. At the start of the season I bet Fergie wasn't anticipating being so short he'd have to rush a patently unfit Nemanja Vidic back only to get utterly skinned in a Champs League semi. Paucity of genuinely threatening striking options is a different issue altogether of course.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:55 (eighteen years ago)

yeah. last night, for a moment I was like "oh thank god louis saha is back" and then about a second later "WHAT'S WRONG WITH MY BRAIN?"

― ken c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:58 (eighteen years ago)

But Saha's the only reason they beat Celtic at all - well, that and Giggs diving for the penalty

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:59 (eighteen years ago)

celtic would have thrashed milan last night

― ken c, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:04 (eighteen years ago)

Well, they wouldn't have lost 3-0

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:04 (eighteen years ago)

They'd have lost 13-0 playing the way they are at the moment, but they did manage 180 mins against Milan without losing a goal

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:05 (eighteen years ago)

United face Manchester City on Saturday after failing to get the derby game put back 24 hours.

He added: "Nonetheless we will be there at City on Saturday.

"The television company were quite happy to move the game to Sunday but the Premier League refused. It's an unfair decision to make us play on Saturday."

boo hooo

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:37 (eighteen years ago)

I have a cup final ticket! let's hope it goes better than the first time I saw Chelsea play United at Wembley...

― Pete W, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:08 (eighteen years ago)

I can't work out why a game they have yet to play has caused them to fuck up now. Unless Ferguson's just flailing as usual.

― The Boyler, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:15 (eighteen years ago)

Get your excuses in early

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:17 (eighteen years ago)

Get your excuses in early

Me or Fergie?

― Pete W, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:26 (eighteen years ago)

Ha ha, and Jose

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:27 (eighteen years ago)

Nonsensical whinging from Ferguson. I don't know what exactly he expects: maybe all of United's league games to be played in June.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:45 (eighteen years ago)

FFS they've only got to play Man City without Joey Barton, how difficult can that be?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:53 (eighteen years ago)

Entertaining old UEFA Cup Final this.

(though poor Spaniards are going to find all the pubs shut by the time they get back to the centre of Glasgow)

― ailsa, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 21:12 (eighteen years ago)

Lol at them lifting the trophy to Chelsea Dagger by the Fratellis, which presumably Hampden have lined up for the Scottish Cup Final and thought they'd get their money's worth out of it.

― ailsa, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

That was a good final. Shame about the red card, I didn't think the 2nd booking was warranted.

The commentary went a bit OTT with the "Hampden never disappoints" guff - they obviously don't see as many Hampden games as us poor Scots.

― onimo, Thursday, 17 May 2007 06:31 (eighteen years ago)

Haha, yeah, I said that to my Dad, he's probably only ever seen two games at Hampden. Saying that, you never know, the commentator might be a massive Queens Park fan.

― ailsa, Thursday, 17 May 2007 06:45 (eighteen years ago)

so Seville retained the UEFA Cup, somewhat predictably, on penalties this time. first club to win it two years in a row since...?

― blueski, Thursday, 17 May 2007 09:18 (eighteen years ago)

Real Madrid, 85 and 86

― The Boyler, Thursday, 17 May 2007 09:53 (eighteen years ago)

Arsenal and Parma came so close in the 90s.

― blueski, Thursday, 17 May 2007 09:58 (eighteen years ago)

No, blueski, that was the Cup Winners Cup. You've been warned about this before. Once more and you're off.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 17 May 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

CURSES

― blueski, Thursday, 17 May 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

so, the liverpool side

reina
finnan-carragher-agger-.....arbeloa?

midfield, 4 or 5?

(pennant)-gerrard-mascherano-(alonso)-(kewell) or will rafa persist with zenden again

2 or 1 up top

but who?

― 696, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 11:07 (eighteen years ago)

Who cares, as long as they lose

― Tom D., Tuesday, 22 May 2007 11:10 (eighteen years ago)

lol at alan hansen: "Steve Gerrard is as talented as Kaka".

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 11:13 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe he means sexually, he obviously wants to shag him

― Tom D., Tuesday, 22 May 2007 11:14 (eighteen years ago)

Riise at left-back, Gerrard-Mascherano-Alonso-Kewell midfield, Bellamy-Kuyt upfront.

Kewell to realise he is still injured after all after 20mins. I don't really know where to go from here. Crouch on at some point.

It's times like this I really miss Luis Garcia, although I'd quite like Kewell to actually perform for us for once.

― Bocken Social Scene, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 11:20 (eighteen years ago)

1-0 to Liverpool at HT, Milan equalize in the 84 minute, Milan win 4-3 on penalties.

― The Wayward Johnny B, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 11:55 (eighteen years ago)

Milan to win by 2 or 3 in 90 minutes.

Alan Hansen to STFU.

― onimo, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 12:22 (eighteen years ago)

... please God, let it be so

― Tom D., Tuesday, 22 May 2007 12:23 (eighteen years ago)

lol at gattuso being 6/5 to be sent off tonight.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 18:40 (eighteen years ago)

kab-b-b-booom :(

― t**t, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 19:33 (eighteen years ago)

And don't start on that useless goalhanging ball-hits-bollocks-hits net little shit Inzaghi.

-- The Boyler, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 22:41 (1 month ago) Bookmark Link

― The Wayward Johnny B, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)

He's a hateful little twat.

― The Boyler, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 19:38 (eighteen years ago)

So, huh, is Dom Passantino happy with Inzaghi's cajones now?

― t**t, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 19:43 (eighteen years ago)

Let's not do the Inzaghi argument redux until tomorrow morning, huh? Some of us have workdays to fill.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 19:48 (eighteen years ago)

Is Kenny Dalglish wearing a really bad wig, or has he been overdosing on Just For Men?

Don't know what to expect from the second half. Liverpool were well on top, but I reckon Milan will have a bit more confidence and be a bit better now.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 19:49 (eighteen years ago)

Blimey. Gerrard. But no cigar.

― t**t, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:08 (eighteen years ago)

Arggh! Kuyt not as crafty wid his bollocks as Inzaghi, bah.

― t**t, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:17 (eighteen years ago)

And wuddya kno' - teh man Inzaghi he got TWO balls?!

― t**t, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

Ball meet Inzaghi. Inzaghi meet ball. And Inzaghi he lie down. Hm.

― t**t, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:29 (eighteen years ago)

Vow. Kuyt with one ball now also. Yet ain't that a bit late...

― t**t, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:33 (eighteen years ago)

dirk kuyt, has only got one ball
inzaghi, has two but very small
etc etc

― zappi, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:39 (eighteen years ago)

lol football

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

Congratulations to AC Milan and all their supporters, obviously, but fuck me David Pleat gets worse as a commentator every year. Why on earth does he keep referring to Man Utd as "Manchester"? Is this some sort of Pro Evo thing?

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:43 (eighteen years ago)

Poor game, really.

I hope the L'pool fans are all happily drunk in the Friend In Hand. I have been mostly mopping up baby sick for the 90min.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

It says something when the best player in the centrepiece attraction of the world footballing calendar is Jermaine Pennant.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

lol football

lol ball_

― t**t, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

It probably wouldn't have made much difference, but they'd signalled a minimum of 3 minutes of added time (and there was a very slow substitution during that, which should have increased it), but the referee blew up on about 92:40. If I was a Liverpool fan I'd be livid and demanding my 20-seconds-and-then-some back, but I'm not so I won't.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

Poor game, really.

Yeah, washout. Couple of interesting plays and Inzaghi's second was amusing. Otherwise, eh.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

Hey, teh first 'arf wasnnae at all bad!

― t**t, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:52 (eighteen years ago)

Best ~~league~~continent in the world.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

This felt like the best game I'd ever seen, after the FA Cup final.

I laughed so hard at Inzaghi's comedy through the legs moment that really it was inevitable he score again.

― Suedey, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

I thought Reina could have made it a little tougher for Inzaghi's 2nd, myself. He should have timed it slightly better, and delayed his final movement a fraction.

― Just got offed, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 21:00 (eighteen years ago)

*yawn*

― river wolf, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 21:21 (eighteen years ago)

that first goal was http://419.bittenus.com/SarahLeonald/eyebrow%20raised.jpg, and really the whole match was just a bunch of guys running around. my buddy claimed zenden "a disaster," and yeah, pennant really was one of the more interesting players to watch tonight, except for that weirdo chip in the opening of the game. and the terrible heel-ass to nowhere.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 21:24 (eighteen years ago)

Liverpool defence for that second goal = lamest offside trap ever. It's like they didn't even bother to look, maybe because the possibility of Inzaghi NOT being offside hadn't even occurred to them.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)

Carragher looked fucked which sememed to enable Inzaghi for his well taken second. Apart from that Milan were rub and v lucky to score in the first half. Terrible referee surprise surprise. Result as expected in the end tho.

― blueski, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 21:49 (eighteen years ago)

Worst CL game since the second round, if you ask me, but that's probably inherent to finals (2005 not-withstanding). I thought Milan deserved it way more than Liverpool, seeing their sprawling form against Munich and Manchester. So I'm happy with the result. Too bad Inzaghi had to put them in though. His mirror will break when he looks into it tomorrow morning, OD'ing on ego.

― Le Bateau Ivre, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 22:37 (eighteen years ago)

At least we weren't played off the park. Like in 2005.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 23:04 (eighteen years ago)

thought that might happen, ah well. could have won it, weren't good enough, no chances taken.

― Porkpie, Wednesday, 23 May 2007 23:37 (eighteen years ago)

I'd rather be played off the park and win it, personally. Milan couldn't even be bothered to lift the cup properly.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 24 May 2007 09:45 (eighteen years ago)

"Master Tactician" subs Mascherano, Kaka opens 'em up a la 2005. Game over.

I hope Gattuso asked for a signed copy of Gerrard's book.

Congratulations to Maldini on winning as many European Cups as Liverpool!

― onimo, Thursday, 24 May 2007 09:50 (eighteen years ago)

Things get wierd.

Michael Howard criticises the organisation of the match. Uefa spokesman retorts.. "It is very easy to say it is not a suitable stadium, coming from the man that invented the poll tax."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6686867.stm

― Nicholas Passant, Thursday, 24 May 2007 09:51 (eighteen years ago)

"Master Tactician" subs Mascherano, Kaka opens 'em up a la 2005. Game over.

Also 2-0 down with 10 minutes to go, substitute a full back for.... another full back.... duh Rafa!

Best fans in the werld, la... fuck off, losers

― Tom D., Thursday, 24 May 2007 09:55 (eighteen years ago)

I had no idea wtf was going on with that substitution either. Did he do it deliberately to snub Craig Bellamy?

(Actually was Bellamy even on the bench? I missed the first half due to transport horror).

― Matt DC, Thursday, 24 May 2007 09:56 (eighteen years ago)

"It is very easy to say it is not a suitable stadium, coming from the man that invented the poll tax."

haha that's brilliant

― onimo, Thursday, 24 May 2007 09:57 (eighteen years ago)

I wish Rafa was managing a more likeable club

― Tom D., Thursday, 24 May 2007 09:58 (eighteen years ago)

We laughed at crying Liverpool fans because we're mean like that. Also, Gerrard and Carragher being interviewed together pre-match = some weird humming drone noise punctuating with tons of "erm, well, la, y'know, erm, la" a lot.

Aye, the full-back-for-a-full-back sub was baffling, as was removal of Mascherano who was easily the best midfielder there that wasn't Jermaine Pennant (and I can't believe I just typed that).

― ailsa, Thursday, 24 May 2007 09:59 (eighteen years ago)

We decided at the time he made the sub at 2-0 so he could push Riise further forward, or something.

To leave Bellamy on the bench at 2-0 is a huge "fuck you and fuck off" message to him. Such a waste, he could have been starring for Celtic but now we have Scott McDonald and Kenny Miller (no laughing at the back there!).

― onimo, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:00 (eighteen years ago)

Liverpool players did gracious defeat pretty well I think - Carragher, Gerrard and Crouch anyway.

I chuckled at Harry Kewell crying though. Perhaps he knew it was his last chance to win the Champions League with a 20min cameo in the final after doing nadge all all season.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:01 (eighteen years ago)

That's another one that flummoxed me - that anyone could think Harry Kewell, and in particular a Harry Kewell who's played exactly two games all season (a defeat to Fulham and a draw with Chartlon!) can come off the bench and win a European Cup.

― onimo, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:05 (eighteen years ago)

Kewell was crying with the simple joy of not being noticably injured

― Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:06 (eighteen years ago)

he did win the bowling the night before tho. perhaps he was reminiscing.

― blueski, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:10 (eighteen years ago)

Aye, I said that at the time. You have Peter Crouch and Craig Bellamy on the bench, why why WHY put Harry Kewell on?

Has Robbie Fowler left now, btw?

― ailsa, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:10 (eighteen years ago)

Has Robbie Fowler left now, btw?

I never liked him in Eastenders much anyway

― Tom D., Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:12 (eighteen years ago)

Strange sort of anticlimax about this, considering how keen I was to see Milan win. The Kuyt goal got me involved briefly in a Christ-not-again kinda way, but it was all a bit meh. Liverpool were certainly diddled out of a good minute of stoppage time (if the board was correct) but, hey, same thing happened in the Anfield derby in 2005 when Everton were pushing for an equaliser so there you go.

The news channels post-match seemed to focus on the American owners and how shedloads of cash would be spent in the summer to ensure this sort of thing Never Happened Again. Lots of interviews with Reds stranded in airports, shambling around Athens, etc while I played Spot The Scouse Accent - hmm, more Norfolk than Norris Green, that one - until Pam told me to Drop It.

(To be fair, Kewell did come off the bench the weekend before last to win 3rd place in the Prem.)

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:13 (eighteen years ago)

Lots of interviews with Reds stranded in airports, shambling around Athens, etc while I played Spot The Scouse Accent

Not really fair that, I'd say you hear far more hometown accents among Liverpool fans than any of the other leading English clubs, far more

― Tom D., Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:18 (eighteen years ago)

funny how rampant corruption and incompetence in Italian football administration has really given their national team and one of their top clubs that extra spark needed to win the World Cup and the CL respectively.

― blueski, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:22 (eighteen years ago)

Liverpool were certainly diddled out of a good minute of stoppage time (if the board was correct)

Aye, Onimo was putting forward the theory in the pub last night that Rafa's master tactics were all based on something that should have happened if they'd been allowed to play the last 18 seconds of the game.

― ailsa, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:23 (eighteen years ago)

I thought Kewell was pretending to cry because he knew it would get him on the telly, like that Spanish goalie whoe name I havwe erased from my memory.

― PJ Miller, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:24 (eighteen years ago)

, I'd say you hear far more hometown accents among Liverpool fans than any of the other leading English clubs, far more

leeds?

― 696, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)

oh wait, you said leading

― 696, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)

It helps to be in one of the top two divisions

― Tom D., Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:36 (eighteen years ago)

"It is very easy to say it is not a suitable stadium, coming from the man that invented the poll tax."

haha Onimo i only opened up this thread to post that too

― Ste, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:40 (eighteen years ago)

Not really fair that, I'd say you hear far more hometown accents among Liverpool fans than any of the other leading English clubs, far more

Oh, I know, it's just knee-jerk idiocy by me. And it merely reflects the huge cosmopolitan appeal of Der Mighty Reds. Does wind 'em up though.

(Hometown accents though - are we distinguishing Norf Landen from a more generic Greater London/SE England accent? Cos I've never met a Scouse/Manc/Brum/Scottish Arsenal fan, for example. I'm sure they exist. Perhaps there were more of them in 2002/2004.)

Anyway - close-season resolution #1: not mentioning H3ys3l (not that I ever do, directly), not mentioning nonScouseness of Liverpool fanbase anymore. It's been done to death. And it annoys the missus. All Evertonians are Welsh anyway.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

Tell the missus to stop reading ILX football threads and get it all out here. You know you want to (also it makes me laugh).

― ailsa, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:48 (eighteen years ago)

True, nobody much like London clubs outside of London (xp)

― Tom D., Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:49 (eighteen years ago)

The Herald match report includes the fantastic word "scudded"!

http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines/display.var.1421409.0.0.php

as Pirlo cushioned the kick around the wall, it scudded into the irrepressible Inzaghi

― onimo, Thursday, 24 May 2007 10:58 (eighteen years ago)

Haha, they also refer to Bellamy as "the former Celtic forward".

― ailsa, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:00 (eighteen years ago)

sorry but

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j171/mdanielwalter/kewell_wideweb__470x2190.jpg

what a dork

― blueski, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:05 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, and Kaka and Gerrard are kinda crap as well, haha

― ailsa, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:09 (eighteen years ago)

Does that photo mean Kaka is owned by a third-party consortium? Does Jesus hold his registration? All very dodgy.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:16 (eighteen years ago)

might photoshop a kitten onto the tip of kaka's nose in a bit.

― blueski, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:17 (eighteen years ago)

So Kaka belongs to Jesus but God belongs to Liverpool?

http://www.mentalacrobatics.com/think/blogimages/fowler1.jpg

Fancy not giving God a new contract.

― onimo, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:25 (eighteen years ago)

I didn't know God was a wee Orange bastard

― Tom D., Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:32 (eighteen years ago)

Well he's hardly going to be a papist idolator.

― onimo, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:33 (eighteen years ago)

Fowler looks like one of those cartoons they used to have in Fast Forward magazine.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:34 (eighteen years ago)

In that photo. Not in real life, taht'd be stupid.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:35 (eighteen years ago)

We all belong to Jesus, mate.

― PJ Miller, Thursday, 24 May 2007 11:42 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.teamtalk.com//Images/115684.jpg

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 24 May 2007 12:04 (eighteen years ago)

good prep

― blueski, Thursday, 24 May 2007 12:06 (eighteen years ago)

It's not domestic.

― PJ Miller, Thursday, 24 May 2007 12:56 (eighteen years ago)

theyre getting rid of mark gonzalez, didnt do enought for a 2nd year. kinda surprised, south american, young, normally enough to write off a first year, and decide in the 2nd

― 696, Thursday, 24 May 2007 13:04 (eighteen years ago)

The news channels post-match seemed to focus on the American owners and how shedloads of cash would be spent in the summer to ensure this sort of thing Never Happened Again

The Weetabix will rule the world! (see Marina Hyde)

Not really fair that, I'd say you hear far more hometown accents among Liverpool fans than any of the other leading English clubs, far more

I'd have to disagree with that 100%. I'd say only Manchester United rival Liverpool in terms of how much of their supporter is from out of town.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 24 May 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)

^^^ uh, stenhousemuir?

― 696, Thursday, 24 May 2007 13:16 (eighteen years ago)

Plenty of Stenhousemuir fans don't have Larbert accents, some of them have Alva accents

― Tom D., Thursday, 24 May 2007 13:18 (eighteen years ago)

I remember a conversation on Brookside where Ricky Tomlinson (can't tremember his character's name but know his name - how times change) was going on to his daughter (KAREN GRANT)'s Man Utd supporting boyfriend du jour about how he ought to be a Liverpool or Everton supporter and young fella said "oh, right, cracker, la, Man Utd have supporters from all over the country, scheeeeeeeeeechghhhhgh" as if this was somehow remarkable. All of which just goes to prove my point. Which I haven't made yet. Because I haven't decided what it is.

― PJ Miller, Thursday, 24 May 2007 13:23 (eighteen years ago)

some of them have oslo accents as well tom

― 696, Thursday, 24 May 2007 13:39 (eighteen years ago)

or is it bergen, i forget

― 696, Thursday, 24 May 2007 13:39 (eighteen years ago)

On the WSC Board, there's a guy who does parody match reports after big games - this was his post-CL final effort:

In this time of total national grief I take comfort in the Alternative Book Of Scouse Jokes. That's all the usual ones, right, but with alternative endings written by a true Scouser who understands Scouse, ie me, so it's The Truth. It'll have you in fits.
Q: What do you call a Liverpudlian in a suit?
A: Degsy Hatton. A man who stood proud and walked tall for the people of Liverpool only to be betrayed by Southerners who were prejudiced against all Liverpudlians just because of the way they talk and the colour of their skin. But he will return and so will we, hope in our hearts.
Q: Why do all Liverpudlians wear shellsuits?
A: They don't. They don't, right. I mean, some do. I do and all my mates do. But some don't, I suppose. Not always. Because we're all different. And Scousers are more different from anybody than anybody. You'd understand if you were a Scouser. But you're not. We are.
See, that's real humour that. From a true comedian, ie me. That's why people laugh at me. Laugh their bollocks off every time I open my mouth. Because we're all comedians up here, eh? One on every street corner, in every doorway, in every bus shelter. All forged from the same adversity and passion and sense of community that forges a Tom O' Connor. But tonight wasn't about laughter. Tonight was about the pride, the passion, the glory and the pride. Who could believe it, eh? 2005. Liverpool meet Milan in the Champions League final in Istanbul. Two years later, same two teams, same final. And the same city. It's called DESTINY. Spell it out, D-E-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-H-H-H-H-H-H-S-S-S-S-S-S-T-I-N-Y. For one long year the European Cup has been missing from its true home. This is a national tragedy. As the banner I made to take on my long trek to the final read; Pray For Maddie. Pray For Liverpool.
Of course, it costs money, like, to get to a place like Istanbul. But y'know, there's always a way. A bit of jibbing, ducking and diving. But it's also about working together. Like me and my mates. We raised the money by burgling each other's houses. Left our doors open for one another. That's community. That's cooperation. That's passion. That's heart. You don't get that in a city like Everton.
Anyway, it's the big day and here we were in Istanbul. Looked in at the bar and you could see on the telly Liverpool supporters all gathered as far away as Athens, chanting the chant, never walking alone. That's how it is on nights like this. Liverpool IS Europe. But when we got to Istanbul stadium we hardly noticed any fellow reds. So the media stories of UEFA quite literally withdrawing tickets from ALL true Liverpool fans because they hate our passion and our pride were dead true. We get to the stadium, we're the only ones there. No tickets but loads of Scouse charm. "Lerrus in, mate", I says to the moustached feller on the door. "Fookin' lerrus in, like. I've left me ticket back at the hotel but I'll go fetch it and show you it after the game, like, honest." Actually that was just a bit of brilliant Scouse cunning but still I was dead offended when this woolyback looks at me like he half doesn't believe me! Tarring us all with the same brush, like.
"You want to see reserve game here, you need ticket," he says. Come 'ed? Anyway, we tried to force the door open for 25 minutes till finally it dawned on us - those UEFA bastards had switched the venue at the last minute. We burst into tears - we must have been teargassed by the Turks - and go and watched in the bar. Come on, Liverpool! Stevie, Jamie! Stevie! The game started and Stevie Gerrard, I tell you, what a man. What a man. every time he got the ball he was blasting it high and wide, deliberately aiming it into the stands. He knew how much them balls would be worth to a Liverpool fan on e-Bay the next day, to sell on, to put food on their tables, hope in their hearts and Kestrel lager in their bellies. Putting the fans first, that's Stevie. For my money that alone gave us a moral one goal lead, to add to the one Liverpool fans are worth every game which should have had us 2-0 up but then Inter Milan got one and Jamie Carragher tackled and tackled, the way he does all night for fun and then Inter Madrid got another and Stevie Gerrard gave us hope and pride and we got one back. But then the ref got scared and blew the whistle and once again, just like in the Eighties, Liverpool were the victims of a footballing tragedy that will touch the hearts and minds of all peoples, Liverpudlians and Evertonians alike, but from which Liverpool will emerge taller, strengthened as a community, reborn in a valley of tears, Christlike and Godlike.
But now was the time to think of suing some bastard. Get on the phone to one of them daytime telly lawyer firms and sue. Sue UEFA for moving the fixture to Athens, not Istanbul like last time. Sue Inter Milan for deliberately sabotaging our offside trap with their cynical tactics. You don't do that to a man like Jamie Carragher. Sue Rafa Benitez for not putting on Robbie Fowler, at least for the last 89 minutes. Sue that Clive Tyldesley for deliberately building up our hopes - some of us put our life savings on at Paddypower at half time on account of the way he was going on. It's not right. Sue The Beatles for abandoning Liverpool in its hour of need. Sue Man Utd for not tiring Milan out enough in the semi final. Sue the Government for the whole Degsy Hatton scandal. Sue Starbucks for taking a significant part of their name from Liverpool's finest golfer and comedian, Jimmy T himself, the man known to one and all quite simply as "The Joke".
But this is no joke. Come the first weekend of the new season, there should be a minute's silence at every football ground in the United Kingdom for Liverpool's lost trophy. Who knows where it is now? In swarthy, foreign hands, I dunno, Spain, Italy, wherever Inter Madrid or Milan is, asking over and over when it can come home to Anfield and get to see it's true Da' again, Stevie Gerrard. It's heartbreaking. But no one loses like Liverpool. We will return to Istanbul, for another That Night. We will be back. And this time, we'll lose by more.

― The Boyler, Friday, 1 June 2007 09:24 (eighteen years ago)

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2031397547

― onimo, Friday, 1 June 2007 09:28 (eighteen years ago)

I stopped reading when I got to the Maddie bit.

― PJ Miller, Friday, 1 June 2007 09:32 (eighteen years ago)

http://morethanmindgames.co.uk/

Brilliant four-piece Clough analysis.

― Pete W, Friday, 1 June 2007 10:16 (eighteen years ago)

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