I have never had sex.

this is good because it's usually lack of confidence that holds people back (far more than 'ugliness').

If on the other hand you want to follow the boy advice then just come back here when the thread reaches 2500 posts and just do 'CTRL-F DJ Martian'.

If you think you can get sex when you want sex, then wait until you want sex before you have sex! And that's that, really.

But bear in mind that the people you think you can get sex from when you want sex probably aren't the sort of people you want to be having sex with.

I'm not the best person to ask, though. I went for *years* without sex - most of my 20s.

1) Always make sure you're clean beforehand.

2) Read the instructions on the packet

5) You have to ask permission before you have an orgasm

6) Don't flush used condoms down the loo

i'm not really sure why i don't want to, either. lord knows i used to want to, but now... maybe i have very high standards. i've only ever really felt attract to a few people, during the last few years, anyway. maybe i feel like we're all disgusting beings. and, i never want to have children, i never want to get married, i never want a more-than-just-friends relationship. so, i don't know, what's the point even?

-

i just sort of spat that all out. i'll probably think of this more later and be able to express myself more clearly.

yeah...

You don't need sex to be human. High standards are a GOOD thing!

HI DERE DARRAMOUSS!

ILE of threads? doesn't make sense

also if you're so annoyed by ILX g-kit, why stick around?

Yeah, coz no one should ever, EVER dare to talk about their emotions or emotional experiences, ESPECIALLY not in public.

And because you have a problem with it, no one else should be allowed to do it, either.

In other words, I would not start worrying about a lack of desire to have sex with another person for another few years yet. There is nothing strange about being a virgin at 20. If, on the other hand, you have no sexual urges of any kind, and you don't feel the urge to masturbate, then you might have a medical problem and should perhaps chat to a doctor.

This sounds like balls really. You're just making excuses. It'll happen when it happens, relax about it and try not to let it screw you up.

Exactly!

I was always concerned myself that I'd not had much sexual experience, until I learned to accept that, no, that's not true. I might not conform to the "stud" different-girl-every-week stereotype, but a) hardly anyone does b) that stereotype isn't a good thing.

Sarcastic, unhelpful, and rather spiteful excelsior/zing-fishing is not the sum of ILX's parts, dude.

Oh, is this the beginning of the end for teh_kit?
First of all it's "IF U DON'T LIEK IT WAI R U HERE????!?", then come a boatload zings at my expense, then the BAN TEH_KIT thread, and eventually I'm forced out. Because I disagreed with the behaviour of Old, Established Posters (tm).

k, go for it.

indeed, but i only ever see you moaning about it these days. haven't looked at I Love Games tho.

what about, er, 34? I'm quite normal, I think, *twitches*, except I was the nerd who was reading books and listening to music when everyone else in school went to parties and now I've been working quite far from where I live so I'm too tired in the evening to do anything else than surf and hang out with you virtual people here. Best thing about it: you don't miss what you don't know, so I'm a lot less miserable than people my age who're divorced or inbetween relationships. I bet it's overrated too. So there.

Yes, sorry, I meant to start my post with "as FP says..." but then didn't.

34? Jesus christ, get away from me before I catch celibate off you, you freak.

No just trying to read between the lines. I sort of identify here. This is the same bullshit that I used to feel too.

I only start this thread to ask if sex is something that I really have to do...?

That doesn't sound anxious to you?

(xpost)

It could be a bunch of other feelings too. Sometimes I think it's best to take people at their word.

I don't understand this.
Do you mean I only moan about the bratty behaviour? If so, well, that's because there's nothing else to moan about. This is the only thing on ILX that really bothers/saddens me.

If you mean that all I ever post about is the bratty behaviour, well, you're wrong.

What does ILG have to do with anything?

No, it's not. It doesn't imply he wants to have sex at all. He's merely asking if he should question his lack of wanting. Should you have sex? No, unless you want to. There's no rule book that says you have to. It's not essential to your life (unless you want to procreate, I guess, but you could always adopt).

Just fucking relax. 20 years is still young. Even if you're 40 yrs old and a virgin, so fucking what?

Stan, my dad always used to beg me to go out when I wasin my mid-teens. "Why don't you go OUT! TO CLUBS!" I was like, no, I rather sit home, in my comfy couch and read. Or hang out the window and watch my peers going out. He just couldn't understand why I prefered staying home.

re-assuring

zackly.

Use protection. That is all I can advise. If it is going to happen, be prepared.

Also, the thread did contain a request: BAN TEH_KIT.
It was actually intended for discussion of the zing/DIGGING culture that is becomng more and more common on ILX. Hence the LINK from this thread.

So now, we're both cluttering this thread, discussing TWO different off topic issues instead of one.

Hence my saying "as an admin, fucking useless."

The thing is of course that it ain't gonna happen unless you pursue it. You have to make sure that you create the opportunity.

then you should have made that clear from the start, shouldn't you?

but even so i'm not convinced that sort of thread should be on Mod Request Board anyway. what do you expect moderators to do about 'zing/digging culture' exactly?

instead of asking for yourself to be banned perhaps try exercising more self control.

you'll never get to narnia that way :(

There's no rush.

It was actually intended for discussion of the zing/DIGGING culture

Then say this. Having to decode a question before answering it is of interest to no-one.

i. the thread you start had an imcomprehensible title (to anyone who hadn't read this thread)
ii. the thread contained no parsable content in re yr topic (to anyone who hadn't read this thread)
iii. the thread shouldn't have been on the mods board

the hazing ritual for anan threads abt hard-to-express emotional questions relates to the fact that lots of ilx posters are more worried that the original poster is posting in bad faith than they are about the issue treated as an objective subject of enquiry

(ie they are pre-emptive anti-troll zings)

sex is no different than anything else that a vast majority of the human race does. you don't have to do it, but the more of these common things you deny yourself, the more disconnected you'll feel from society at large.

and like someone else said upthread, this may be a typical "guy" answer but who cares who you lose your virginity to. it's not some magical moment like kate and louis will have you imagine. yeah, it's better to be in love, but it isn't necessary. just find someone attractive and have recreational sex.

unless you want it to be. but, no, it's not necessary. i mean, it can be special but maybe some people want to get it over with.

"It's not how long it takes, it's who's taking you. "

nice re-edit btw

(xpost)

Clearly she never had to experience a guy with premature ejaculation.

what are you, the sex grinch? i'm devastated here

No one EVER said this.

Saying that someone should have sex because they've found a person they *want* to have sex with, rather than because "everyone is doing it!!!" or "Omigod, if I don't lose my virginity soon I'm going to grow hair on my palms" is not the same as unicorns and rainbows.

I disagree in a way. 'Always should be someone you really love' I'd say. Nothing else matters.

plus - think about frusrated people - who want sex but can't get it..
what would you advice them?
yout situation is much better.

Someone's been sitting in the house for too long.

Ok, crap joke, but, dude, I never said that it *had* to be special.

it's like cell phones: you don't need them,but when you actually have one - it's hard to do without it.

and you can always put it on vibrate

my point is: sex isn't a big deal. it's a normal human activity that everyone should try. our christian culture has stigmatized sex so badly that it leads us to ridiculous questions like this post - "is it ok for me to not have sex?!? can i be a normal human?" how fucking silly is that. people, and i am afraid louis is one of them, get really silly, really unrealistic ideas about what sex is and how it should be.

Dude, think this through. If we were in any sense living in a Christian culture (not that yourself and myself are neccesarily living in the same culture), the question would be "Is it ok for me to have non-married (bonus Catholic clause: non-reproductive) sex?"

It's probably closer to say that out secular culture has stigmatized not having sex so much that (rest of sentence unchanged).

Indeed, mickey you need to get out more [/obligatory zing]

See I fucked that one up from the outset but still, no regrets...

1. fuck you.
2. i can very well accomplish having sex while confined to my house. but thanks for concern.
3. you are terrible at zinging me. i am pretty much the easiest target here after louis. if you can't handle that even, give up.

1. lighten up
2. bet yr wrist hurts
3. i know, that was the point of me putting "obligatory zing" after it as it was a tired meme before it started

Ew, dude, don't let us in on all the minutia next time.

hahaha, perfect thread to ask that question.

dude this is not the kind of shit your guards wanna stumble upon.

That's completely off because our "christian culture" has stigmatized sex as a necessary evil. Guess what, it's neither evil nor necessary. The advice to find someone who you get on well with isn't magical unicorn garbage or idealistic, it's just reasonable.

Wasn't there some study that found that a small percentage of the population is actually fairly asexual? No strong interest in sex with either gender. I often, to the shock and awe of friends, mention how it'd be nice to not spend all that time having sex, thinking about it, or plotting how to get it. Think of all that time!

i believe it's called being married. thanks i'm here all year.

The "get out more" was a genuine statement that you seem to be talking about a society in which "Christian culture has stigmatised sex" and that IMO hasn't existed since the 50s if not before - it was nothing to do with your ability or otherwise to "accomplish having sex at home" (OMFG what a phrase you old romantic!). I was agreeing with Andrew that if anything the opposite is true. Then I realised that it was you he was responding to and put the zing bit in for a wee chuckle as I realised I was playing up to a meme that you've already gone to great lengths to tell everyone isn't funny.

uh...

The further you are away from "official sex" on the intimacy scale, the harder it will be to get there (whether that's the point or not). Personally, I think that while recreational sex has its virtues, it has little to offer in terms of emotional sustenance. Recreational sex, though, can be the gateway into a relationship that's more fulfilling than that, and while you may not be interested in that now, you probably will change your mind in 10-15 years. My advice, then, is this: Try to be more intimate with someone than you have ever been in the past. Don't set "sex" as the goal, but if it wants to happen, let it. Even if you remain a virgin forever, experiences of emotional and physical intimacy will be good for your soul.

Says the unruly one.

But for the record, "find someone you get on well with" is not necessarily a different proposition from "do it just to do it." You can still do it mostly for the sake of it, just with someone you like okay. Hell, this doesn't exactly change for non-virgins: surely the majority of casual sex is just "feel like some sex" + "this person seems reasonably nice," not "OMG I burn for you."

OTM on judging how far you are from having sex on the intimacy/activity scale (though this is admittedly kinda hard to tell when you're a virgin, cause you've never been there, don't recognize the outskirts, and have no idea what magical line gets crossed where suddenly sex is possible). But like if you've never even fooled around with anyone, just concentrate on that, which'll be a lot more fun and less nervewracking than jumping straight in to the deep end.

Ever seen a grown man naked?
http://www.airodyssey.net/graph/airplane-joeyoveurlarge.jpg

The first time's really just about getting it out of the way.

-- Mädchen

OTM. Even if it might be well-intentioned sexing at the time. Doesn't mean it won't be fun, even with the aftermath (trauma, relief, world looking slightly different)

I'm not the best person to ask, though. I went for *years* without sex - most of my 20s.

-- Forest Pines

but don't expect it to the ball to be constantly rolling around in hot sex forever after you've lost your cherry :(

this is good because it's usually lack of confidence that holds people back (far more than 'ugliness').

-- vita susicivus

painfully OTM. Sex isn't really the problem when you get there I think, it's having the right balance of confidence/drive/sensitivity (real or pretend, people being right c*nts to each other often in pursuit of teh sex) to actually establish intimate relationships with other people regularly enough that you don't have to just hope it "happens" one drunken night by dumb luck and yr life is suddenly sorted :/

Oh, and Matt, my 'expounding of grief' line was deliberate innuendo (hence the 'as it were'), so stop taking all the credit!

True story.

True story.

Well, yes, though it's worth noting that, umm ... if you've cooked a meal once, you know better how to shop for the right ingredients next time. You wind up with a better and more comfortable sense of how intimate situations actually lead to sex, and how to navigate those situations better, so they gradually go from fraught and confusing to totally natural. (Haha: e.g. when I was 16 or 17 I had this really "weird" experience hanging out at this woman's house, and then later in life I was making out with someone and suddenly realized that she was very obviously trying to start something, and I was too oblivious to participate because I didn't know the sequence.) (If you doubt my retrospective conclusion let me just note that a book on "sensual massage" was involved.)

xpost = oh, no kissing. Qs:

- you mention courting someone for four months; what do you consider courting?
- what's the extent of your relationships with people you're interested in?
- do you have any regular female friends, like reasonably close ones?
- do you detect a huge difference in the way you relate to female friends and women you're romantically interested in?
- how often do you find yourself spending time alone with a woman, whether on a friendly level or a, umm, courting level?

this explains a lot about you

2) I'm only interested in people if they're single (true story), and if I know them quite well. I'm generally reasonably good friends or at least well acquainted with those I'm genuinely besotted with.

3) Yes. At school and even more so now at university I've always been very outgoing and popular, with no social hang-ups or reservations. I have plenty enough close female friends, most of whom I kinda fancy (and in turn, mostly because I really like them as people).

4) Herein lieth the problem, I suspect. Not as big a difference as there probably should be. Although there are some (those who are attached/outed lesbians) for whom I feel no obligation to make myself extra-attractive.

5) Reasonably often. Normally I just try and get a good chat going, whether it's a woman I like or not.

See, these sort of quibbles just hold you back, dude.

Weirdo.

It's got NOTHING to do with my looks. If I've got one defect it's a teensy bit of extra flab around the waist, but otherwise it really isn't a barrier.

I could, of course, just go out this evening and pull a stranger in our local cattle-market. Should I go and do this, crossing a hurdle but losing some integrity? What if this girl comes home with me and we end up a couple? I'd certainly prefer to begin with someone who would be in a relationship with me.

It's nice and good to think "I'll wait for the right person", but not necessary.

Also, dropping hints in public around girls that you're a virgin might work too. Did for me. Actually I just said "I'm a virgin" and she said "no fucking way" and then a while later I wasn't.

Also, just getting drunk and making out is a good idea. Although pre-sex I did this more with boys than girls.

loneliness drives people crazy but frankly i don't think you have a problem! bright side etc!!

maybe this is self serving advice, cos based on my own fuck-ups i think the solution to 9 out of 10 problems in life is GET OUT OF THE HOUSE AND DO SOMETHING

Shall I post a picture?

But I'm not hectoring you Louis, and I'm not advocating "go to nearest pick up joint and score at any cost" (although why not?). I'm just thinking out loud about the ways we might make life more unpredictable or more adventurous. In short, "fuck a 'standards'".

the new 'poppage'

Also, dropping hints in public around girls that you're a virgin might work too. Did for me. Actually I just said "I'm a virgin" and she said "no fucking way" and then a while later I wasn't.

This nearly worked for me once, but the girl(s) in question (there were two of 'em, one of whom seemed keener) eventually chickened out when I called their bluff.

look on the bright side, you haven't gotten involved in any kind of shitty, regrettable, or unhealthy situations, which is more than a lot of 15, 16, 17 y/o non-virgins can say

This explains why I show a certain deal of pride in trumpeting my own virginity!

I'll be off the internet and out on the mean streets of Cambridge soon anyway. Tonight could be the night...

I've successfully dated a friend whom I'd known for a while, but the reason it worked was because during the time before we dated, we weren't terribly close and she was dating someone else, anyway, so I never considered her as a potential partner, never had time to pine after her, etc. If you're persistently pining after female friends, and unsure of their reciprocity, I think it makes things complicated.

That said, I totally sympathize with your desire for friendship, or at least some kind of connection, to come first. I've only had a couple of relationships since I graduated (I'm nearly 28), and it's mostly because I wasn't really meeting anyone I was interested in on a regular basis. After a while, I began to seize opportunities when they arose (approaching a cute girl at a bar, e.g.) just because I didn't know when the next time I'd have the chance would be. Take advantage of the fact that you're still in school, where interesting girls are everywhere and social situations are easy to create.

The answer of course is you don't. So be prepared (together) for giving people the incentive to stfu about you & the person you care for.

In conclusion: religion fucks you up.

Afterwards I didn't feel as if I'd gone through some life-changing experience, but I did feel a weight lifted from my shoulders and was much more chipper over all. Not just cos of the sex but cos of the romance too. I had, ahem, frolicked, as it were, with a couple of girls before. If they'd been up for it I probably would have gone the whole hog, but can genuinely say I'm glad I didn't cos there was no real connection there other than booze and desperation. I suppose it gave me some, er, work experience, but you learn on the job pretty quickly anyway, and if she's any kind of decent person she'll be understanding.
I'm not saying you should expect fireworks or you have to be madly in love, but it's so much nicer if you at least like each other and feel comfortable.

There's still a part of me that thinks sex is bad and dirty. I think people who think sex is perfectly natural and open and beautiful are the weird ones.

a; you can be in love with the person

b; you can also not be!

Neither is key.

Louis, I'm just guessing from the responses you gave to my questions, but I can see one problem you might be having, and you can tell me if this rings true to you:

You're starting relationships the wrong way. I mean, all the things you describe as some kind of pre-kissing courtship are activities that are known to most people as "making friends." You're trying to become close to people before you sort out your romantic interest, which is also known as "making friends." And this will work against you, because once you've made a friend, you're looking at a much bigger challenge -- instead of just starting a romantic relationship, you're trying to convert an existing, comfortable friendship into one. And that can work, sometimes, but it's like building a covered bridge and then trying to make it into a house: it's way easier to just build a house in the first place.

The alternative isn't just to go to some "meat market" and pick someone up. The normal alternative would be this: next time you go out with friends and meet new people, if you meet some girl you think is attractive, and who you enjoy talking to in a friendly way for an hour or two ... ask her out. Not as a "friend," and not to build some platonic relationship while you find out more about her: ask her out on a date, as a potential romantic interest. You will have way more success with this than trying to turn your established friends into lovers. And then you can work from there in largely the same way, except that any intimacy you build from there will be understood as romantic intimacy, not as friendship.

I want to speculate a little on why you don't do this already, so please remember that I'm just guessing here. But: the risks are higher for this sort of thing. Asking someone to do something in a friendly way doesn't carry that much risk of rejection; asking someone on a date does. And if there's no rejection, it means getting to know someone via a process that's far messier and more fraught than being casual-friendly and figuring everything about them out that way. But ... it's just kinda what you have to do. You're not going to know everything about the person. You might not even turn out to like the person that much. She might not like you. Chances are, you'll break up. You kinda have to bite the bullet and do it anyway. And the good news is that you apparently have friends, and your friend relationships will go on as normal even as you try different things and maybe get into messes and rejection on the romantic side.

Just try to keep those things more separate than you currently are. Within a day or two of meeting people, try to think about whether you want to initiate a friend-relationship or a romantic relationship. I totally understand that this is inconvenient, because you don't know them enough to decide, but those are kind of the breaks. You might be wrong, and have a failed relationship with someone who might have been a great friend. But it sounds like right now you're doing the reverse, and having friendships with people who might have been great girlfriends. You just have to make a blind bet on which way you want to try things, and see what happens. (And if it makes you feel any better, it's probably easier to convert someone you dated for a couple weeks to a friend than it is to convert a close friend to a lover.)

no way, the potential for a lousis jagger "Huzzah! Huzzah! I have achieved poppage!" thread in a few months is his one redeeming quality. that thread will be a monster instant classic.

All it takes is confidence. Making myself seem wonderfully friendly and interesting will only make friends; taking the plunge is something else entirely. I've asked girls out for dinner before, but never raised the stakes to describing (or treating) it as a date.

Oh, and Aimless, I've spent the last 5 years looking for someone to love. I normally get hung up on certain girls, often think I love them, and am mortified when it doesn't happen. Something needs to click into place.

Some of my behavioural traits betray my unsoiled state, I'll admit. I mean, I've publicly tooth-drummed ffs, nobody with a girlfriend would show off his tooth-drumming skills!

Oh, and the thread (I worked this out earlier today, in fact) is going to be called, simply, 'POPPAGE'.

xxpost

Yup. If you spend long getting friendly before you bring "I want to be on you" into it, then you're kind of betraying whatever friendship you've established beforehand. She's gonna think you were sweaty-palming it all along (which you were), and it might make things difficult for a while.

And you know this, that's why you (probably) never reveal the sexual tension you've built into yr. "friendships", thus sparing yrself the ugliness. And possible blowjobs.

Moral: you have to be creepy. You have to make your fuck-want clear from the beginning, even if you choose to go smooth and disguise it as "romantic interest". I understand that the romantic interest route is very popular.

I didn't get fucked, didn't get kissed until I was in my 20s. Drove me fucking crazy. I obsessed about it and about my own sexual loserdom to the point of incapacitating mental illness and listening to Swans records. Then I got drunk, hooked up with a lovely and similarly enabled girl, and ... well, let's discreetly draw the blinds on the indiscretions of the past.

Disagree that getting laid is not a curative, though. It is a curative. I never worried about it after that, and never had trouble making my intentions clear to girls I liked.

*shudder*

How would you go about doing this?

You have to make your fuck-want, clear from the beginning,

aiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Thought it'd be clear that "fuck-want" was the way those ashamed of their sexual interest tend to demonize it.

Guess not.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's a bad idea to make hide sexual interest in "friendships" and then to crucify yourself about it over time.

Er, soul-destroying xposts.

John Justen, OTM. Adam, I don't fucking want to read your fuckwant posts anymore.

The Berserker is just so obscene
Likes evil people you know what I mean
He takes your soul and then just rips you apart
He'll steal your heart

Would you like to smoke some pot, Berserker
My love for you is ticking clock, Berserker
Would you like to suck my cock, Berserker
Would you like some making fuck, Berserker

Point taken. I ought to have phrased it better; my 'looking for someone to love' manifested itself in the form of falling for girls, befriending them, going to movies/restaurants, and then just as I thought it might be love, watching as the whole thing fizzled out. I understand what you're saying, though; if it happens, it happens, and it's something you can't really control.

i somehow have learned to love louis's wide eyed naivety

This, at least, is true.

One last word of advice: self-deprecating horribleness is, apparently, no longer fashionable. To be avoided.

haha yeah yr not gonna live this one down for awhile

yeh, that's what she TOLD YOU, dude :)

j/k.

(i actually said this to a former boss once when she was reminiscing about a bloke she'd pursued for ages who turned out to be gay. fuck me, it didn't go down well.)

as for the rest of the thread: i would advise LJ and the original poster to go out, get laid, get the "first time" over and done with, then stop worrying about it (and heed nabisco's advice, natch). it's not really a big deal, and you don't have to get married, have children and move into a small house in chingford the next day.

i've improved on this front SO much over the past coupla years. being cool and reserved is an art that needs to be perfected, and i'd say i'm well on the way!

dere reality TV producer. i have this grate idea for a show ...

lj, are you ever concerned that a young woman you meet might google your name and see all the ilx hijinks you have been a part of?

Main Entry: un·re·quit·ed
Pronunciation: "&n-ri-'kwI-t&d
Function: adjective
: not requited : not reciprocated or returned in kind <unrequited love>

You Have To Make Your Fuck Want
Make Your Heart An Open Flame
Email her, Call her, Whatever it Takes
Until She Yells Out Your Name
In Federal Court or on the Street
Either Venue Will Do
As Long As Your Beloved
Knows That You Are You

You Have To Make Your Fuck Want
Despite What Your Therapist Said
And if She Betrays You or Calls You Queer
Just Shoot Her in the Head

Moral: you have to be creepy?

lj, are you ever concerned that a young woman you meet might google your name and see all the ilx hijinks you have been a part of?

If she does that sort of thing then she fucking deserves to witness my trail of destruction!

upon meeting a girl i'd advise mentioning offhandedly some "nutter" pretending to be you on various message boards

;_;

OPEN THE POD BAY DOORS HAL

That's me staying in tonight then...

don't be creepy, or a bastard, or specify your "fuck-want" jesus. Just don't be scared to be a bit cheeky.

This is not something that has ever scared me particularly (as you could probably tell from my not-so reticent conduct here), but cheeky-serious is a thin, thin line when it comes to sexual issues, and one I'm loath to cross.

Louis I sympathise a lot here, but man, please don't fall forever into the trap of overthinking this shit, what surprises me is that you seem otherwise very well adjusted! I certainly wasn't at your age, and still struggle now.

To raise the stakes a little, what about...I have never kissed a girl?
this explains a lot about you

And your answer also says a lot about you.

(repeat ad infinitum)

Which is another interesting thing, Louis: it's easy to think that what you know of people on a close-friends level explains and encompasses what they'd be like to date, but ... umm, it really, really doesn't. People's expectations and dynamics with their significant others are really different from how they relate to their friends. Being friends with someone to sort out whether you'd like to date her is like ... I dunno, like having someone swim laps to see if he'll be a good sprinter.

Watch out for Beales's backwards rhetoric, too! I mean, same difference, but the point isn't to embrace being creepy -- it's to realize that asking people on dates and being romantically curious about them is totally not creepy. You don't have to be all like "behold my fuck-want." You don't even have to be all specific about wanting to have a relationship with a particular person. The only messages you need to send are (a) "I am looking to have a romantic relationship in my life," (b) "I think you're smart and nice and pretty and stuff," therefore (c) "Let's go catch a movie and see if (b) has anything to do with (a)."

this would be a bad idea

hahahahaha ok mind is broken officially

I ought to print out your posts on this thread and pin them to my wall or something...
this would be a bad idea

Yeah. You get the girl home, she first checks out your bookcase and records and then noticed all these hints and tips printed out.

Got some explaining to do.

-- lex pretend (lexusjee...) (webmail), January 17th, 2007 3:29 PM. (lex pretend) (later) (link)

this is actually an excellent summary of this thread when combined with alex's img post.

i keep seeing louis pulling off his trousers and showing his light wand.

not that I'd recommend it over y'know REAL LIFE but you might get a snog or something along the way :/

Yeah. That's all I ever meant. You specify your [to embarrassed to actually type it] by, say, asking a girl out on a real date. Or by straight-up telling her you like her (scary!). Or by making an obvious-not-obvious crush tape. Or maybe just by maintaining eye contact when things get weird for a moment.

That's all I meant by "you have to be creepy." Jeez.

See, it's easy to imagine (if you're lust-addled, naive and basically decent) that your sexual interest in girls should remain a secret. That you're demonstrating something valuable by being a complete gentleman at all times. For some guys, that's fine. But for others, it's a trap. They forever fail to "push the moment to its crisis," and unintenionally push interested girls away by seeming aloof, cryptic or even dishonest.

That's why I advised "creepiness." I didn't mean that you should say gross "hey baby" shit or rub your nether regions inappropriately. Just get over the terrible fact that there is a sexual component to your interest in girls. Accept that the girls you like probably know it already, and that it isn't a bad thing in any way shape or form. And be willing to be slightly forward (or "cheeky", if you prefer) in your affections.

***

There's no point to this. The joke is gonna have way more legs than any explanation I might offer at this point. And coping with shame is a valuable life-skill, right?

It's easy to understand a lot of the cases people are making for doing one thing or another, but we're all built differently when it comes to dealing with this stuff. The "go-out-and-get-laid" school is great and I support anyone who's up for it, but that's not me and never will be. I turned DOWN a chance to have sex because it wasn't the right girl, she liked me way more than I liked her, and it would have ended with more hurt feelings all around than there were without any sex.

When I finally took the plunge it was with a girl that I really did love. That made it easier and probably nicer at the time. My next endeavor after relationship w/that girl ended was just as intimate but everything happened a bit faster, which I guess makes sense. Still never had any kind of casual sex, barely can do casual making out. I'm just not really built for it.

So, y'know, make sure you feel good about your decisions, whatever they are.

Fuck that.

Anybody who can't deal with the burning horror of the (admittedly cringeworthy) phrase "fuck-want" hasn't ever really been an adolescent male. It's gross as shit, but so's the secret life of the beast in question.

Inarticulate, oppressive, magazine-stashing, sheet-staining, pimple-ridden teenage lust is not made out of fluffy little kittens and does not bow to genteel diction.

And 20-something ain't that far off...

didn't. need. that.

-- John Justen says Toonces was one of the most talented cats on televison (johnjuste...), January 17th, 2007. (johnjusten)

http://basicjuice.blogs.com/basicjuice/images/kool_moe_dee.jpg

"JJ, don't bring me into this mess."

You:
Make your move.
Explore your options.
Run Away.

Not me, I'm married.

Of course you did, Louis. I'm not suggesting that you're still a kid. But I imagine that we all have some sense of what we were in what we are.

I'm trying (and, as usual, failing) to talk about why it's sometimes hard to be truly honest about our interest in the opposite sex. I think for a lot of folks, affection is overshadowed by a misplaced sense of the "horror" of it. The horror of imagined rejection, the horror of being perceived as a creep, the horror of being a freak, the horror of the unknown.

I think a little perspective and cynical humor regarding the sometimes flat-out gross realities of life is healthy. Sex is sometimes messy. People are sometimes awkward or creepy. (As I'm apparently proving.) The wrong things are often said.

But it's okay. Things tend to work out in the long run. And it's better to be honest than to be perfect. It all boils down to respect: if you trust her enough to let her in on your feelings, at least she'll know what she's dealing with.

If she does that sort of thing then she fucking deserves to witness my trail of destruction!

Waitjustasecond. You didn't use yr REAL NAME on a public bulletin board, did you? Unwise, son. Highly unwise.

burning horror in your fuck-want

Isn't that a 'Fits, or at least a 'Zig, song?

playing to the fans

You're the one who kept saying "the horror," don't be all affronted now.
-- AllyzayEisenschefterBDawkinsFlyingSquirrelRomoCrying.jpg

***

See, this is why Al Gore should never have invented this shit. I was mocking myself, you think I was mocking you. No, Allyzay, I'm well aware that I've lost the room, and was just having a little fun at my own expense. And the Brando pick was 100% OTM.

I'm weeping for the loss of subtlety. Me and my extraordinarily subtle fuck-want over here.

You mean he knocked up the PayPal hooker ALREADY? Goddamn, but Louis Jagger is more man than all of ILM together along with James Brown.

-- chicago kevin (blablabl...), January 17th, 2007. (chicago kevin) (later)

Mods, please edit the first message in this thread to include this post.

Otherwise, I've been away watching a DVD of Real Madrid beating Eintracht Frankfurt 7-3 and this thread amazingly got even more bizarre. It's like Rikki Lake for Oxbridge virgins.

Anyway, enough of the serious answer. Um.... FUCK-WANT.

I still think N is right.

Of course it's fine to hook up with friends. Happens all the time, and might even be the best way to go about things.

But it's kinda weird to "befriend" someone that you've got a serious crush on and then to keep that crush a secret for a long time, hoping that someday, someway the moment will be right.

It's weird 'cuz:
A) It really is kinda creepy.
B) You're just begging to be misused.

this one always catches me out :(

note: this isn't really a question you have to ask most dudes.

fixed.

I do agree with this, but a crush is something that often shouldn't be requited - you have to ask yourself whether you have a crush because of some kind of magical hearts-and-flowers fantasy (in which case, probably keep away) or if you genuinely like them (in which case, do you like them enough to understand the fantasy may never come true?).

Um. I think the point is not so much "AHA I WILL BEFRIEND THIS PERSON SO THAT ONE DAY I CAN FUCK THEM" and more "Hey, I know this person and I really like them. Like, really really REALLY like them. I wonder if they want to fuck?"

This is exactly what I meant. (But clearer and funnier, damn it.)

*marge simpson disapproving grumble*

Absolutely. That's a really good point, and it comes down to what you're willing to put yourself and the object of your affection through in the long run.

I'm not really willing to endure the protracted heart-pulping thing anymore. I can't do it. That's why, as a grizzled old shithead, I'm inclined to be more forward about stuff. More direct. If the friendship was really meant to be, then it'll survive somehow, whether or not you get what you think you want.

See, once you've built a friendship (or a delusional facsimile of one) around a crush, it's really, REALLY hard to tell whether or not you're in it for the right reasons. It becomes hard to separate the friendship from the apparently unrequited (???) romantic attraction.

God, I've just destroyed myself over that crap, and seen lots of my friends do the same. That's why I'm saying nip it in the bud. Shake things up a little.

Still, I understand that those with stronger hearts than mine might want to tough it out in order to protect the friendship-bubble...

I think my point, though, is that it's not something to count on, or wait for. I understand how close friends can turn into lovers; I understand how people in your social circle can very gradually get there; but if you go out and meet someone you really like, surely you're better off trying to date them -- no matter how casually and no-pressure you start off -- than trying to make friends and then shift things around. And either way, if there's no close friend you're pining for in the meantime, it's just good practice to get familiar with the process of asking someone out and actually dating -- because between the ages of 25 and 40 you're probably going to need to be able to do that. (It seems like once people get up toward 40 and 50 they have enough stuff going on in their lives that the friends-to-lovers thing starts working again, but in between, not so much.)

But anyway yeah, I'm not at all against the idea that friends can become more; it's happened with great success for me, and I appreciate it. It's just ... it can be tricky, and it's certainly not something to sit around waiting for if it isn't happening.

That and the surgery.

-- mh.

i read this wrong in the context of everything else

(a) "I'm single. I'd be open to a relationship right now. You seem nice, and I'd enjoy going on a date with you."

+

(b) "If you're not interested in that, it will not be a big deal at all for me, because I will just file you as 'not interested' and be your friend."

And see, the important part of that combination is recognizing that asking someone new out is not some big "OMG I love you" moment, and way more of a question -- "want to find out if we like each other?" -- where if the answer is "no," not that much has changed, and you can just be friends. (That's something that develops with age and maturity, too -- I mean, when 30-somethings ask one another to dinner it's practically a "let's meet for the first time" thing, so far from "tee-hee I like you.") I think this is also part of why I was against the "raging fuck-want" part, because that implies that the desire is this huge thing that will always be there vexing everything. Whereas ideally mature people can sort out whether they're interested in one another romantically well apart from whether or not they're friends, because they're adults and aren't going to get weird if the romance part isn't mutual. The "raging fuck-want" phrasing implies something like "I may be juvenile and if I don't get to have sex with you then I will be weird and you're better off staying clear."

(c) "can I have a wank in your vagina?"

That's what I meant in choosing the language I did. That's how I remember it. I mean, I'm a long way from my teens/twenties: maybe I'm exaggerating the drooling maniac aspects...

I remember "lustful thoughts" being a distracting, overpowering and mortifying preoccupation. At least until I got laid for the first time, after which, all that sex-angst kinda evaporated.

BTW you poor, poor virgins, sex is totally fucking rad, you are all missing out.

xpost.

http://i3.tinypic.com/2ylsbxu.jpg

or, even better:

http://i16.tinypic.com/2my7vpl.jpg

but with the second girl here:

http://i16.tinypic.com/4ckyxqo.jpg

Glad it makes sense to someone.

And thank you, Stan, for making this conceptually NSF humans thread into a general-issue NSFW thing.

http://www.cs.nyu.edu/milan/images/charlott.gif

http://www.antiks.co.uk/Pig.jpg

http://www.jollygood.com/images/Robin%20july%202004/Peat%20&%20Porky%20pig.JPG

Thread-appropriate.

-- the killfire konspiracy (papiermachealamphibia...) (webmail), January 17th, 2007. (Haberdager)

i have like 4/5ths of this thread to read, so maybe this has already been addressed... but don't let that bother you. first time i kissed a girl was also first time i had sex. i don't think that's too uncommon.

coincidentally this is sometimes the record i play when i think i'm going to get pussy and want to pump myself up

don't feel bad though, it's common. i used to, and hell, i sometimes still do, try to approach "courting" or whatever in the same way. and what does it get me? this year it got me a towel set for christmas. LET THIS BE A LESSON, LOUIS

Oh, and in my current state of inebriation I've just read this and the astonishing 'POPPAGE' (one of the better ILX threads IMO), and I have to say, I'm seeing a lot of posters in a more human context now. Internet-hewn facades are being lowered, and genuine people you'd want to meet and chew the fat with are emerging, which is great!

Mickey, I shall try to avoid the reward of merely a towel-set when I next set eyes on a girl. The closer I can get to all or nothing, the better!

Drew, finally, of course getting laid with another man is easier; you're chasing someone with the same sexual perspective as you, consequently you know roughly what they want, surely! I'm not sure women are 'eww' about guys wanting to have sex, though; there must be other, complicating factors that cloud the equation.

sexual perspective
is an erotic prism
a mutual project of
nights full of jism

Hahahaha this is OTM (and has been since 1996).

i was very understanding of course.

xpost don't follow Adam Ant's choice in outfits? U mad?

http://www.vintageblues.com/the80s/adam_ant.jpg

well, i don't have the patience to read this entire thread now, (or wade through all of the inevitable excelsior attempts and general silliness, i mean) but i would just like to say to those of you that did try to discuss this matter of mine seriously, thank you.

let's see, what do i need to say... yes, i am anxious about sex, and probably not as disinterested in it as i may have seemed in my earlier posts from today. it's just that, well, i'm in no hurry to have it, and, to actually pursue someone, and to have it, seems well, really more trouble than i imagine it's worth. um, i am a shut-in, and depressed, etc, etc... i'm pretty heterosexual, i suppose. agh, i hate those terms. (michael stipe said it best, and this is one of my favorite quotes ever, regarding sexuality "labels are for soup cans"). ummm. yeah. i was really just wondering if it's o.k. to just live a sexless life. i mean, i have urges, but, eh, the mind wanders, i forget them. i feel better about this.
thanks.
ummm. someone did say something earlier on in this thread that popped a question in my mind "do i really still want to be a virgin whem i'm 30". so, i have made a decision. i will not let myself become thirty-years-old while i'm still a virgin. but, i think that i know that i'm celibate (that goes along with those terms i hate, hetero, homo, whatever, but, for lack of a better word...)

-

i just spat that all out there again. maybe i'm not being clear, i don't know. but this is it for me and this thread, though. thanks.

-

oh, and the user name's a cocteau twins' song title. i like that it's confusing and aggressive sounding. i like that song, and i love that album. ummm... yeah.

-- accentmonkey (tris...), January 17th, 2007.
oh shit

And I'm none too shabby. Just nerdy.
However, your attitude has caused me to year Morrisy in my head, and now I'm upset with you.

You know what'd help get to that point? Drunken snogging. Srsly, give it a try why not.

I think you'll change your mind about suicide when you get to be 29.

Anyway, out of curiosity, this "ask her on a real date" stuff, do you actually say "Would you like to go on a date?" (which I know some people do but which seems a bit nuts to me, except maybe if responding to a personal ad or something) or do you mean you just kind of imply it other ways, by how you ask, where you're asking her to go etc.?

[L-R] adam, louis

I think you'll change your mind about suicide when you get to be 29.

-- Three hundred inches from the children. (libcryp...) (webmail), January 18th, 2007 6:06 AM. (goodbra) (later) (link)

ha, i actually meant that to sound confusing, even though everyone should know what i meant. sex or death or suicide or turning 30, whichever comes first.

Wait: have you had relationships in the past? Cause if not, I would worry way less about the sex part of this and more about the not wanting to pursue someone or have a relationship. Especially if the reason is "it seems like a lot of trouble." I mean, sure, having close relationships with other people can be a lot of work, and maybe for the time being it's easier to just hang out with some buddies and call it a day. But that becomes slightly less feasible as you get older -- and over the long term, if you really dwell on the intense loneliness, depression, isolation, alienation, and suicide that can come from winding up truly bereft of close relationships, it's ... well, it starts to seem a lot more worth the trouble, I think.

That's not meant to be all scary and "YOU WILL DIE ALONE," because chances are you'll get over it and everything will be fine. But if you haven't had relationships in the past and don't feel like it now, you might take that as a warning sign that you're getting into bad lonerish habits, and could maybe stand to make some small efforts -- just something to nip them in the bud before they start becoming problems. Especially since when you do want to pursue people, it really does help to have experience and be in practice.

(Haha alternately "Someone Winds Up Alone and Depressed and If You Think Relationships are 'Too Much Trouble' That's Probably a Warning Sign that It Could Be You.")

Also for the record I am trying to be fair and non-judgmental and stuff, but honestly: in most of modern America as I know it, I don't think many people make it past 26 or so without having any relationships whatsoever without winding up at least a little weird, out of step, "behind," neurotic, or even damaged -- whether that's cause or effect, I don't know.

I hope that doesn't offend anyone who did that, and I don't intend it to be mean. But in most circumstances, having some kind of romantic relationship (however brief or failed) seems like a developmental step people have mostly taken by that point, and so if you haven't ... you're in an odd position.

xpost

(Sundar, I'm still not certain what kinds of non-explicit cues make it clear whether something is a date or not -- I guess lots of times people just ask -- but it seems to get across just through tone and plans and behavior, yeah?)

but on the other hand I feel like my antisocial virginal dorkhood is wrapped up with a whole host of weirdo inadequacy and sexual identity issues and it is depressing me to see that even dudes without those issues aren't doing much better

aaaaaannnnnnnd now I'm back to feeling better about myself again

The following links may or may not "help":

POPPAGE
ILX YOU ARE SCARING THE FUCK OUT OF ME
DEAR NABISCO
thread deletion request (DAN)

luv,

grady

I thought that. And taken in such a Mills and Boon fashion too. It's like Nancy Friday and the dogs.

that's not really bad luck is it? it's poor judgement. morals: don't pursue lesbians (unless you're a girl) (and are hott)

for the uninitiated

xpost, or worse, your cock became pastafarian

This can happen with long hair, semi-dreads at least.

That or quietly sneaking your ass outta there!

xpost!

-- to scour or to pop? (papiermachealamphibia...) (webmail), January 18th, 2007 3:07 PM. (Haberdager) (later) (link)

"Morning"

Not that fucking Suede / Pulp fan who wrote for that horrzine? C-Man? Fuck no!

P.S. I forgot to mention:

PANDA PORN

hope that clears things up a bit.

-grady

^_^

velko, what's your favorite thread of all time?

On Sockpuppets

good choice

(= (= ^_^ =) =)

6000£

...

I had sex again! For those keeping track, this time we fucked to 'Idylls' by Love Spirals Downwards.

I used the word "fuck" decisively, because that is all we did. It, again, was not pleasurable. I am not very attracted to this person and I do not have romantic feelings for this person - I barely felt a thing. I am disappointed, and I thought that it would be different the second time. I do not know what to say. It was not worth it. I am heartbroken and my life has been shattered.

I would like to think that romantic feelings would make a difference. I could never develop those for anyone, though. I do care about this person, however, and we have decided to keep doing this and seeing each other - romance will never play a part in this. I do not know what I am thinking anymore.

I think that I hate this.

--
Addendum: Oh my God. I am so distracted by these recent events. I have to finish three papers now, in the next week-and-a-half at U-Michigan. One for Phil 232 L0eb - we have the same politics, I'll write it on Ethical Egoism and make fun of Ayn Rand or something, that's fine. Two for H@ss - I love AMCULT, but oh boy, she's hard to get an A for (though I have before). Bleurgh. Ann Arbor rules, but sex sucks. Anyone out there???

Oh boy_slayerpaws

you've gotta save some time for Kessen between papers

ned this is your most fiendish creation yet.

oh, my god. i just got wrinklepaws'd.

^^ sock

Welcome! :)

Kudos! really is what should be said.

robes

I do not want to speak to sock allegations. They have come up a couple of times. I know that people that raise the suspicion are only being cautious and humorous, but it is offensive. Just check my IP or something.

I kind of just wish I had someone to talk to in this cold world. "King" by Belly is a good song. Maybe I'll get over to ILM and talk about that. I did, however, feel like this was an appropriate thread to unload my stupid, personal wrinklepaws sex drama, for what it's worth.

"Your Love" by Jamie Principle also rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mu69BGzdd4

is this you

http://www.bobslayer.com/

THIS IS LIKE A POEM OR SONNET OR SOMETHING I CAN FEEL YOUR SAD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmAYwGw_eDI

boy_slayer what do you think of kerrytown?

isn't it just some sort of marketing thing? a suburb or something? never been there often, i live on northwood. it's dead quiet here. i had to shush my partner the other night and i felt AWFUL. i'm a northern heathen. oh god, i kind of just wanna run down rich kids on the diag, or, fuck their sex partners and destroy their lives - to tear the rungs down off the social ladder.

i'm impoverished, but i have a hell of a scholarship. life smiles. :) and, i love U-Michigan's social commitments - it's basically my new religion.

meticulous avoidance of gendered pronouns itt

EXACTLY.

we'll get to THAT later, maybe.

it is besides the point, however.

"Your Love" by Jamie Principle also rules.

this slayer knows what's up.

we can't help u with a leathscéal imo

what is yr opinion on uppers b_s

when you go to the union, which fast food restaurant do you choose?

so sorry that you live in northwood, btw. enjoy krogers.

boyboy_young mess (messy marv)

WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION BOY_SLAYER

don't fuck anybody you don't want to.

that is my opinion.

fuck everyone and let god sort it out

i pack my own lunch, ever day! i sit at the tap room, in the corner, i don't want people to think that i'm weird for bringing my own lunch. i'm a vegetarian of 10 years and, idk...

and, yes, kroger's is impractical and unethical and expensive. blah blah balh. can we talk about sex again or something?

What do you think about rimming?

i'm having sex right now

it's...okay

would would the best place be in a krogers to have sex, do you think

i malfunction. i am wondering if there are women in this thread. i suspect we are mostly men right now, and that is fine.
i just guess, that, perhaps women are more sensitive to these issues...? i mean, i want someone to tell me NOT to do it again. I won't enjoy it anyway. i wish i felt something, there was romance, a feeling, or, i don't know. i'm just afraid that i'll never feel anything anyway, so why not go wild now? i don't know, i don't know.

homie, i'm looking at my vagina right now. i mean, there's a penis going in and out of it. what do you want from me?

what is yr opinion on uppers b_s

― sweetántangó (clouds), Thursday, December 6, 2012 7:10 PM (14 minutes ago)

"You've Got the Love" by Ribbe Smith is a good song. Shut up.

What about poppers?

fuck everyone and let god sort it out

― bob chipeska (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Thursday, December 6, 2012 8:17 PM

This has always been my advice.

it gets better

i've always been of the 'fuck god & let everyone sort it out' stripe tbph

I'm 24 and have never had sex. It's ok, I guess.

Serious question, though: given that I have recently (and for the first time ever) have started to actually try to date women, how feasible is it that I can get by without having to disclose this. Which is to say, what's more offputting, unexplainedly bad novice sex or sudden admission of adult virginity?

just don't worry about it. it's a natural thing. you don't need someone to be gentle with you or anything. just don't bring it up. but also don't lie about it if it comes up. you'll be fine.

'bad novice sex' won't happen if you aren't too cerebral about it. the fact that you're worrying about it at all is bringing way too much tension to the moment. you're probably worrying about the post you just made. you're thinking about what the other internet people will think. it's not healthy. be yourself. give what you have and don't hold back. just keep an open mind and make sure it's safe.

I reckon tell her, if you think she'll be chill about it. Or excited!

ed.b, i've never had a partner ask me about previous experience (or lack thereof) since i was 18 - you seem way too worried that women will somehow detect your lack of experience and be critical of you. Disclose it only if you want to, and IMO only afterwards.

Serious question, though: given that I have recently (and for the first time ever) have started to actually try to date women, how feasible is it that I can get by without having to disclose this. Which is to say, what's more offputting, unexplainedly bad novice sex or sudden admission of adult virginity?

― formerly EDB (ed.b), Friday, December 7, 2012 5:22 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

don't tell them. it's not important. trust me, as a virgin until 22, sex is not that hard. enthusiasm is like 85 percent of it. if you come too fast you can probably just give head for awhile and become renewed.

srsly, sex is something yr body is made to do, it's not like juggling or pole vaulting, try the glove on and youll be amazed at how well it fits.

Eat me.

By sex are we all meaning penetration? If the latter I think I was 24 when I lost my virginity, and to be honest it wasn't as much of a deal to me as being in a proper long-term relationship.

It's like dancing, you are gonna bump your head a bit with a new partner, however good at dancing you are..

i have never danced

But you have watched other people, right?

strictly cum dancing

there it is

To be fair, I'm not actually that worried about it, not least because I've realized - apropos all your OTM advice - that one way or another it's not worth caring about that much. Thanks, though!

For those keeping track

Ok I'd like to know who these people are?

jaymc.xls?

i have also never had sex.

but life goes on. sexlessly.

I have never not had sex.

never found my virginity

did you check your jacket pocket?

for most of us it's the pants pocket, show off

strictly cum dancing

God bless you, Ward. God bless every last goddamn one of us

there's a tiny tim joke if i could just get my typing hand out of this pocket

srsly, sex is something yr body is made to do, it's not like juggling or pole vaulting, try the glove on and youll be amazed at how well it fits.
― slam dunk, Friday, December 7, 2012 1:50 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark

The penis is meant to go in the vagina. Bananas are perfectly shaped for the human hand. Stop violating nature, asexuals and fagosexuals.

and nanasexuals

nanosexuals

sex with intimacy and affection but without romance is prob one of the best things ever; you should just aim for that

does boy_slayer know that we have an entire secret sex board? seems like prudent info going forward

seems like prurient info tbh

everyone there wears domino masques iirc

*reversed sounds of priests chanting*

This was me. I'm 29 now, have only had sex with a person who doesn't really count.

I don't fucking know.

I was psychologically abused by this person, who played a sick joke on me, and we didn't have sex.

I went to University of Michigan, this monster went to Eastern Michigan University.

This shell of a person played a sick joke on me.

i'm drunk, lol.

i had two mental hospital stays after this sick joke was played on me.

it sounds like not having sex may be the least of your issues

Try not having a drink instead. Seriously.

gonna/about to pass out.

a really sick joke was played on me in ann arbor. it was a really sick joke - pulled by some kids.

i'll either go to michigan state or dartmouth after this, for a transfer. (i don't like talking about it because of the stigma, but i'm native american and can probably go to dartmouth).

a very sick joke was played on me. i feel violent, sometimes.

i hate myself for feeling this way.

i've talked to four therapists about it.... it hurts to talk about it, and makes things worse.

i have ptsd now, and also, stupid psychiatist said i had schizophrenia.

i can5 see straight or read my las5 pow5