Manchester United

And in Manchester, you have two choices. The all conquering Mighty Reds with their famous stars who appear in Smash Hits with Dani Behr, or the Sky Blues, Manchester City. You make a choice. The noble underlings or the vile scum sucking glory hunting capitalist pig dogs of Man. U.

I am proud to have chosen the former! There are enough supporters of Man. U in Bejing to make the loss of one wee local(ish) supporter not exactly a hideous loss.

So that's why I supported Man. U.

Of course, I grew closer to Preston as the years went on and now my team is and probably always will be, Preston North End. Still got a soft spot for City though. Unless they play PNE in which case they go DOWN.

Like I say, contrary to popular conception, I don't think I can think of a single MU fan that I know.

Apart from New Football Fan Tom Ewing.

Me? I like Gillingham.

It is the team supported by the last-named - Manchester City, if you'd forgotten - and Oldham Athletic, who are Greater Manchester's true work of the devil: petty pathetic little whippet-owning Northern ethnic authenticists who moan that everyone supports MUFC and NOBODY KNOWS WHO THEY ARE and isn't it a pity that everything's so huge and globalised nowadays and there's no room for the small man blah blah?

Bernard Manning. Les Dawson. Noel Gallagher. Both touched by the hands of Joe Royle. The evidence is clear: Oldham and especially Man City are the teams of tedious sub-racist provincial bitterness. Against that, who *wouldn't* choose a global corporation who actually have ambitions and, at their best, live up to them?

Not bitter.

What confuses me is that people keep writing things in praise of Man Utd, as if they're about to go and win something. But they're not. (cf eg today's Guardian, in which a Neville says they're a better team than in 1999.) I can't quite work out what's going on - why their ongoing descent is being so relentlessly denied.

This is the nub of the matter why they're both loved and loathed in equal measure, ok maybe loathed more. They're the football equivalent of Macdonalds or Nike. An aspirational mega brand with a well defined set of values, success, glamour, history, 'northern' grit' etc.

I find it a bit galling that one of my local teams (York City) is handing out a cap begging for funds while you can't move for Yorkshire born and bred Man U supporters. It makes you long for the war of the roses.

I don't think it is. Early in the season (when Liverpool were actually on top of the league, ah those were the days etc.) people were already saying that Arsenal had taken over from Man United as the major force in English football. I thought this was a little rash statement to make. People are perhaps assuming that a single team must be all-dominant, just cause Man Utd have been for the last decade.

"well bar maybe another striker man utd have the best squad they have ever had and prob the premiership has ever seen"

I disagree with zemko here, though. The best United team I've ever seen is the '94 vintage. I'd have loved to have seen how this team could have performed in Europe without the restriction of 'foreigners' that affected English teams (with their traditional reliance on Scottish, Irish and Welsh players) more than anyone else. And I never saw the '58 or '68 teams.

The suggestion about Fergie and Keane being the problem is laughable. I don't know how old you are, but if you don't remember United pre-Ferguson (or even early Ferguson, before his changes had had a chance to work) then a simple perusal of the record books should provide the evidence to counter your claims.

But seeing as you mention the pair of them in relation to the question of decline, I think the mid-term success of United depends largely on a couple of factors that have emerged in the last couple of weeks. On the one hand, both Ferguson and the United board have expressed a desire for him to stay on beyond the end of his current contract. Which is a good thing. The other factor is the state of Roy Keane's hip. He's been so important for United over the last few years that it's hard to contemplate a United without him, or with a diminshed version of him. Recent league games have seen him unable to impose himself upon the match with the power of old. Last night was very interesting - a further demonstration of his abilities at centre back. But his future still seems uncertain.

But Juve still should have got a couple, Nedved was on fire.

'squad' does not equal 'team', ya get meh? and this is my point; the team spirit is riven because simply put stamping and shouting and intimidation do not work on well-paid professionals or hell, men even. the 94 team was good i'll agree (all a bunch of bastards like robson, hughes, keane and ferguson actually), but would have fizzled out eventually had there not been that remarkable crop of kids on which the modern united is built. with a young meek set of players to bring up at once they were all powerful, fanatical even. now ferguson seems impotent, cantankerous, keane well as you say his hip is fucked and he can barely get around the pitch. both useless old men waving their fists at the moon. captain beckham is in charge now; he is staging a player's coup

Ferguson has not fundamentally changed in this regard since the Aberdeen days. It's obviously not his only method of motivation, but as an important part of his management tactics it's proved pretty successful over the years. Including this season. After the city defeat there was plenty of shouting and 'intimidation', if you want to call it that. Followed by victories over Newcastle, Deportivo, Liverpool and Arsenal that transformed the season. The press he gets depends on results. Win, and it's "the great motivator"; lose and he's "out of touch with modern football management". One of the many great things about Ferguson is he doen't allow his image outside the club to worry him one bit.

As for your comments about Beckham, the dynamic between him and Ferguson is obviously very interesting, but there will only be one winner of a 'battle' at United. Beckham flexes his muscles every now and again but he knows the score. Players who think they're bigger than the club or bigger than Ferguson don't last at United, and he's well aware of that.

They've looked the best this season, you're right, but that's with injuries hampering Rio's attempts to settle in. Long term, who knows?

Alternatively, "oh, you always rise to the bait" = "congratulations, you have just won the argument" ;-)

i just feel that ferguson is irreparably just slightly 'outside' of what happens nowadays, that successes at the moment are more to do with talented and capable players gelling themselves into a unit (whilst still wary of ferguson granted). they are taking him and keane with a pinch of salt now i think. like i mentioned above beckham and veron seem to have a terrific understanding and mutual respect which has become the real drive of the team

In reality, I think stevem has hit upon something. It's all about image. Wenger (or at least his cheerleaders in the press) cultivates an image of being an intellectual coach, never raising his voice in anger, cool and reserved. Whereas Ferguson is supposedly all bluster.

Obviously that's nonsense. You'd be surprised at quite how much they've both got in common. Contrary to appearances, Wenger will throw a wobbler when things are going badly. They're different characters, certainly, but they'll both use comparable coaching methods, player preparation, dietary stuff etc. Fundamentally, their success is down to cultivating the loyalty and respect of the players. And despite all the press bullshit, Ferguson still has that in spades.

Regarding United, most City fans have no axe to grind with passionate and informed United fans (as James above seems to be) who've followed their team through thick and thin. But my experience suggests that the likes of James are a minority. Far more often the ones that make the most noise are those who've never set foot in Old Trafford yet refer to their team as "we" as if they somehow contributed to their success.

Besides, how can you resist schadenfreude when you've nabbed four points off them after the hearing a mantra of "looking forward to the six points" in work or at the pub on a daily basis?

however they never sang "anybody who is anybody will soon walk though that door at jaap stam's grand slam speakeasy" either (copywrite cabbage and johnny five)

This would be the number one answer to Tom's original question - why do people hate Manchester United? If it bugs you to hear some clueless fucker claiming to be United, how do you think we feel? Every workplace around the country has got one, and they're the only type of United supporter allowed on 606, so people presume we're all like that.

But whether the clueless "Man U" brigade (always a giveaway) are the majority is a moot point. And we're far from the only team with hordes of muppets claiming allegiance. All top clubs have got them, and so have city. ;-)

on the other hand,i don't resent arsenal at all,they are a joy to watch and i really want to see them be successful,cause its great to see a team who play good football setting the standards
i still support villa,but these days i'm more of a neutral,i usually just want to see a good game
which makes me the sort of fairweather fan everyone hates,but im irish anyway,its not like i can claim to be a diehard fan of any british team
now i support villa in the same way i support ireland in the world cup-they are my team,i want them to win,but know they probably won't
(although i care a lot more about ireland than villa)
and arsenal are like brazil,i want them to win,and thus have good football defeat the forces of evil (man utd,germany)

This is probably because Becks has grown his hair again.

and the Roy Keane impressions had me in stitches all afternoon.

It was my birthday a couple of weeks ago. All the family were over for the
weekend. The night before, there's a problem. Auntie Betty's postal order
hasn't turned up.
One of the paper hats is torn. We have to drink our Asti Spumanti out of
plastic cups.
I go and see Auntie Betty, quietly, in the kitchen. She says that Uncle Mal
was supposed to pop it in the postbox on his way to the shops last Tuesday.
I say, "do you think Jimmy-Floyd Hasselbaink's waiting on a f****** postal
order the night before his f****** birthday?" She tries to fob me off with a
game of pass the parcel.
The game starts. The music keeps stopping and starting, Uneven,
disorganised, just like musical chairs four years ago. I just laugh. But
then I think, "where's the f****** kids?" Theresa goes: "They're in bed Roy,
it's nearly midnight. They're tired".
"We're all f****** tired. It's the day before my birthday. Could they
f****** not have played pass the parcel?" I ask her.
I try to get something to eat. Uncle Ken's had all the mini Kievs. So I
have to prepare for the
biggest day of the year with just a packet of mini Cheddars and a
sausage
roll. Theresa had the
power to put it right, she knows how to use the microwave, but she just
stands there. I phone the gaffer on his mobile, and he agrees it's
ridiculous.
Next morning, the postman finally arrives. Of course, the postal order isn't
there. He apologies. Keep calm, Roy, I tell myself. Don't play into his
hands. Right in front of the whole family, he says to check if it's not
slipped under the mat.
"I'm very sorry, Mr Keane, I really am, but I still haven't got your postal
order," he says.
Goading. Humiliating me in front of everyone. I'm calm, but I'm
starting
to feel it. He
mentions the time that I lost that postcard behind the fridge that cousin
Sue sent from Malta.
There's no way: anybody who knows me knows that I would never drop something
down the back of the Zanussi.
He's dangled the carrot, and I've had a big wet bite.
I say to him: "Well, f*** you then. You're a f****** crap postman, you were
a f****** crap painter and decorator before that and you're a f****** crap
person. You can stick your postal order up your bollix. I have no respect
for you at all."
I go and sit in the garden for a bit, then I go and see Nan and tell
her
that's it. I'm
spending my birthday in the shed. He set me up, saying that it might be
under the doormat, and I went for it. They've wanted me in the shed for
years.
Of course, they're saying to me "Roy, this is your birthday. The
biggest
day of the year", but
there's just no way I'm having anything to do with a postal service like
this.
Nan tries to get me to stay, but my mind is made up. And I don't think you
need to guess who it was that apologised to the postman: so-called nice guy
Great Uncle Derek.
Maybe I'll come out of the shed for my next birthday. But not if Uncle Mal's
going to the postbox.

I am trying to think of a way of saying they played better, given the fact that they did not win.

'ferguson has been irritated by wenger's assertion that arsenal have an unfair disadvantage becuase of the number of london derbies.

"who are the better teams - liverpool, leeds, blackburn etc as opposed to charlton and west ham and so on?" said ferguson. " arsenal always complain about the london derbies but i can't work that one out. they've only lost one in three years, haven't they? and we've dropped 18 points to our local rivals this season"'

The table tells us clearly that Charlton are better than Leeds and Blackburn. Chelsea are better still.

More importantly, Bristol Rovers got a magnificent away win yesterday and moved up three places! We host Mark S's Shrewsbury (well, he obviously cares deeply) on Saturday.

Nobody cares about the foot of the 2nd, Chris, you're just being silly.

1) The huge gulf in technique. Watching British football all year round you come to expect terrible control, passes gone astray etc etc - so to see a team that has mastered these rudimentary habits seems astonishing. Man U are probably as close to RM as British football is going to get in terms of wealthy clubs - yet they seemed leagues behind in their play. Compare this to the England Liechtenstein match the other day: the difference in wages between the two teams is mindboggling, yet there was nothing like the same gap in class (indeed I thought Liechtenstein often played better football than England).

2) The Man U midfield is knackered, and at least 10 yards slower than Van Nistelrooy. Beckham can't run anymore, Giggs is losing it, Keane is now a centre half, Scholes is too often anonymous. So you had the spectacle of VN taking on the RM defence single-handed only to find his support were still huffing and puffing up from the halfway line.

Despite being a Liverpool fan, I have a surprising amount of sympathy for Man U - but I think they are going to have buy big in the summer.

Buy big? But who?

Having said all that Real's defence is not particularly good, United may have some chance if they can score early. Though the idea of them winning 2-0 is ludicrous.

And Giggs did too. These are the players you expect to step up and meet a challenge like that if they want to call themselves truly world class. But they didn't.

Keane is finished

Much as I hate to admit it, there appears to be a grain of truth in that. Though I hope with a summer's rest he can still make a decent contribution next season, he's never going to be the old Roy Keane.

Having said all that Real's defence is not particularly good

This the most depressing thing about Tuesday night - Real are beatable, no doubt about it. They don't have the aura of invincibility of, say, the Milan side of the early 90s. Yes, they're awesome with the ball, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Juve put them out in the semis (but not Barca if they get there).

United may have some chance if they can score early.

Sadly, I think it's extremely unlikely. I reckon we'd need to score 4, and I can't see it.

They need to buy bigger than Veron anyway

I disagree, there just aren't the players of that calibre available. We just need bloody good players with the right attitude. Like Damien Duff. (Though I wouldn't turn down, say, Nedved, if he came on the market.)

Duff would be good yes. Nedved also obviously. I think as JtN said, the game showed the vast difference in quality, Beckham is talked about in the same way as Zidane or Figo, but watching those players on Tuesday it's hard to see why.

I felt a bit sorry for Man U, but not when I remembered the bollocking I got off all the re-emerged fans on Monday morning.

Fair enough, Ronan. From the other way round, it's incredible how all the scousers that had been avoiding me since Monday suddenly felt able to show their faces yesterday. Bastards!

Skidmore, the relegators' champion.....

I always thought that this was at the heart of disliking Man United: that they'd perfected the corporate club, and could now simply outspend their competition.

You're right in saying that one of the reasons people hate United is because of the money aspect, but while United have regularly broken the domestic transfer record over the years, we've also always tended to bring players through the ranks too. So we've got a team now with a few massive signings (RVN, JSV), a couple of players around the £7-8m mark (Forlan, Barthez), a couple around £4-5m (Keane, Silvestre), and the rest of the squad that cost us chuff all.

If you compare United's spending to several other teams (Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle) we certainly don't spend a lot more, often less.

Btw, city are trying to follow a similar route to financial success - the council subsidises their new ground and buys Maine Road, allowing city to spend money they don't have on world class talent like Robbie Fowler.

Some would call this blind faith i would call it the truth.

Basically, it sets minimum criteria for stadia, coaching qualifications, meejah facilities and the big one - finance. It sets out tolerances for player wages as a proportion of turnover, debt ratios at the club and asset/liability tests.

It's been piloted in several countries from next year - Scotland is one of the pilots. There's several difficulties, not least in the difficulty in establishing common accounting standards to measure the financial criteria. However, I think it's a welcome sign that UEFA have a semblance of a regulatory bone left within them and all power to their elbow. There's also the advantage that individual countries can piggy-back the system and add other things in themselves ontop of the minimum criteria - in Scotland there's extra stuff about community programmes for example.

As for the Madrid situation - they were 'bailed out' by the City authorities who bought the training ground - imagine Arsenal's training ground being on Threadneedle Street and you the idea of its worth. They wanted (IIRC) for their Olympic bid I think. I can't see it going back to Spain so soon after Barcelona TBH, so th City will either sell it back to Real (at knock down price) or sell it for development.

They also did quite innovative deals with the 3 big stars they sold - massive minimum sell-on prices, transfer of image rights and so on; they pretty much paid for Figo in about 2 years on the back of the shirt sales and merchandise around him.

...why can't Scholes play like that when he's playing for England?

That doesn't really affect him at international level obv, but needs to be said.

Arsenal were a bit lucky with their goals, but to be honest, I don't think Man U played well enough to warrant two of their own. It was a bit messy, wasn't it? The commentators didn't seem to think so - were they watching the same game as me?

About that elbow from Sol tho, didn't look like a red card to me, as there didn't seem any intent in it. He had his back to Solsjsjsjsia and was pumping his arms.... actually that sounds feeble as fuck but I do think he was unlucky.

but i do genuinely think that saying "big" games on tv are "better" than "little" games in front of knowledgeable / passionate audiences is just wrong. i don't understand why with football, we assume (as tom's orig post did, which is why this is interesting) that somehow what the mass media are interested in is better. technically good, yeah - i think that tom was referring to was "technical" excellence whatever that may mean, but where's the soul ? is the spirit really so irrelevant ? hype turns me off as much in football as in any other field. celine dion's technically good, too, i'm told, but it's lost on me.

and what true football fan cares about a place in a "champions" league that's been devalued for years now ? the whole thing, and the uefa cup, are a farce, and i don't know any football fans (though i do know many work colleagues who affect to be occasionally) who disagree with that... i feel great sympathy for fans of clubs (and i know some fulham and man u fans in particular) who have been devoted for years but the last few seasons they've realised that the essence of their clubs has just disappeared...

(i have to say that if rovers were playing in a meaningless tv revenue-driven league against milan etc, i wouldn't care. it has to be on merit and european football's no longer about that...)

anyway, i will be at that game vs cambridge tomorrow and i'm sure we can unite at least in hoping that rovers manage to get something. if not, i think the Conference will be a blast... there's a lot of passion down there.

i admit i'm not a REAL football fan when it comes down to it. i dont support a domestic club, but i like watching it and even playing it when i can. i like international games and tournaments, i like the Champions League and UEFA Cup - i dont even have a problem with their format. i think its probably fairer to prioritise the Champions League place of say the champions of Poland over the team that finished 4th in the Premiership, but then again 9 times out of 10 that Premiership team would beat those Polish champions. its like having countries like China or Saudi Arabia in the World Cup, they're just whipping boys and not expected to progress (and there's a difference between them and the likes of Senegal even) so why bother having them there at the expense of, indeed, the Dutch who despite being poor in the qualifying stage, could enter any major tournament automatically and be expected to do very well. i know its wrong to think that, and its obviously great for China and co. to be able to participate in a World Cup - and they did do it by merit, but at the end of the day i sometimes think it wouldve been better to have the genuine best 32 countries in the world playing each other based on skill and progressive form. certainly the last World Cup suffered from a dearth of classic 'clash of giants' fixtures compared to previous tournaments. the same argument could be applied to the Champions League. UEFA want to see Liverpool in there because they ARE Liverpool. i agree this is wrong if Liverpool are currently not very good, but then they're still better than Legia Warsaw so thats the dilemma.

um, sport?

However, the reason there were fewer giant clashes in this world cup is because a lot of the giants went out to the minnows, even at the first stage like France and Argentina.

at least there is less chance of this happening in the Champions League given the length and scale of the tournament. its still mystifying how Utd and Arsenal can be so devastating in the Premiership week in week out but fail to perform against the Spanish clubs, none of whom are doing that well in their own league.

United didn't do well against Madrid, clearly, but they haven't had a massive problem against Spanish clubs generally. They've outplayed Deportivo for the last two seasons, and done respectably against Valencia and Barcelona (at least since the 4-0 Romario/Stoichkov game, but that was 8 or 9 years ago). Two games where Madrid have been superb, and that's it.

In fact, until recently United's problem has been the other way round this year - devastating in Europe and average in the league.

Bloody hell, talking of Spaniards, Ricardo has just come on and saved a penalty for United. But now Arsenal have just scored as well.

Unless Arsenal drop points today I still think they'll edge it.

stevem, you're both right and wrong. It's frustrating that United have got to so many quarters and semis but only one final in recent years, so they've obviously lost some crunch games. But by the same token, they've had to win a lot of crunch games to get to that stage, they just don't stick in the collective memory so much. Last year, for instance, United faced a very strong (stronger then this year, arguably) Deportivo side in the quarters - clearly a crunch game - and beat them home and away.

And every group stage has its crunch games - the fact that United have handled them so well (no other team in Europe has qualified for the quarter finals for the last seven years running) doesn't make it any less of an achievement.

But my prediction for next week's crunch game is that there's too much to do. We might get a bit of pride back with a one goal win.

Thing is, when it comes to knockout games you get the massive random factor coming in, which has obviously been good and bad for United. I'm not saying it's all luck, but it plays a part.

I genuinely don't think we're doing that much wrong in Europe. I don't think any team on the planet would've come out of Madrid's first half unscathed.

ah so THATS how Juve and Inter got through to the semis!

I amn't English and the argument here would run that I should follow one of the local amateur teams, but frankly I amn't interested enough in football to watch a match for the spirit or whatever, I still would say I love watching football, but I tend to watch the premiership. Maybe it's a happy medium of sorts because I know I don't get a kick out of Spanish football or Italian football despite them being better quality than the Premiership, arguably.

I mean if the concession that needs to be made here is that "real fans" don't care about the premiership, then I guess I'm prepared to make that concession, whatever really.

you couldve imagined Utd winning 4-3, assuming they will, but not 2-0, or 3-0...the gulf is still quite wide really. Madrid are very much like Brazil were in the World Cup - awesome but beatable - only there's perhaps no team quite strong enough to exploit their flaws...perhaps Juve can do it tho as they will be bouyed by that amazing win in Barcelona.

quite annoying how the Italian clubs have just replaced the Spanish clubs regarding CL dominance this season and nothing else has changed - a real blip year for English clubs in Europe thanks to Celtic and the Spanish clubs.

I've said for the last couple of years that then vanishing Italians was a blip, and this year is just a blip the other way.

what formation were Real playing? it looked like 3-1-6

awesome stuff from both sides (god that sticks inn my craw)

but only one team progressed, ho hum

Well that was what I said further up the thread - not far wrong. I never really thought we'd do it, maybe for a short while after we went 1-1 we had a tiny chance, but it was never on. Got some pride back with the win and the reaction from the crowd.

I was surprised to see Mccaa on the pitch, and he was pretty annonymous I thought. A shame to see him booed off by the sportsmen of Old Trafford tho.

Still, yeah, a lot of the defending last night was a joke, although I'm liking John O'Shea more and more as an attacking wingback, and he got a few decent tackles in there as well. Keane is looking more and more knackered though, can't really run any more and Veron and Beckham play far better together without him. I'm tempted to say that perhaps Ferguson should have played Beckham from the start, but I also feel that his performance was to no small part down to the fact that he was clearly REALLY PISSED OFF to be left on the bench.

I'm sure we'll beat them on Sunday now, just to piss me off.

Was that wes Brown's worst match for UTD? And John O'shea = very very useful indeed.

Utd may have won the match but it felt to me that Real could have scored more if necessary. I mean they took Ronaldo off for God's sake. I don't think they would have done that if they felt Utd had a chance.

I think Beckham should have started the match. He is too good to leave out for a supersub and a man who hasn't played for 7 weeks.

It certainly did feel that this would be Beckham's final European game for Utd.

He was pretty useless, yes. Definitely at fault for the first and looked pretty damn shaky.

Has Figo got the Lurgy? That is the only possible reason I can think of that no-one went anywhere near him on Real's right wing last night.

And how good was the move that ended with Portillo shooting into the side netting? That had me roaring with delight.

Irony of how they started off needing two goals, and got double that; and how when Ronaldo scored his heartbreaker they needed an impossible three - which they scored; and still it wasn't enough.

Given the ceasless and justified clamour there's been about Madrid throughout, and before, this tie, I think it's a substantial achievement that last night Manchester United scored four goals and beat them.

Barthez was surely at fault for 3 of the 7 conceded overall. Must he not go?

He could have saved the first goal. O'Shea nutmegging Figo, however...

(at 1-0 down) "its not over yet, its not time to get the guitars out, and start...going along with the sound of 'em"

Actually I don't think Giggs played poorly; he had a couple of shots. I counted 10 decent chances / efforts beside the 4 United goals. Van N's early shot and the later one that hit the post were both tremendous; in fact he enthrals and thrills me - an heroic player.

Speaking of which

anyway prediction for the prem - leeds will beat arsenal thus ensuring our survival and man u will go on and win it because we helped them once again (remember jimmy floyds header against arsenal a few seasons back that handed utd the title). History will repeat itself.

Oh and Bolton will go down and Campo will be even more saddened

I wouldn't expect that little man to understand such otherworldly beauty. Real at times are reinventing footie, the first half at home of course but esp. the second goal at Old Trafford. So strange it was like Zidane slowed down reality itself, "ho boys, we still have to pass the ball around 30 times before we actually score, oui?" Other than that very predictable, Man U always were going to give away too much space at home so Ronaldo would have field day.

i think del bosque is a bit special

Genius, I hate Tyldsley but it's worth it for Ron's guff.

not Manyoo related but in the Celtic game last night Barry Davies' exasperation with Celtic's poor play was hilarious, at one point he was screaming at Petrov "BRING IT, JUST BRING IT" followed by a loud and long groan as he knocked it into touch (again)

Del Bosque is the luckiest manager in the world "just go out and enjoy it lads" is probably all he needs to say.

Been trying to place Real's game though and what it reminds me of is the sort of "reckless football" we haven't probably seen since France and Brasil in 1982. With the big difference that Real tend to win a couple of prizes now and then.

(i also heard he'll take van der vaart with him and chivu's going to real)

Chivu would be a big loss to Ajax wouldn't it?

about the "reckless football" bit?

About the rumours: word from Barcelona is that they want Koeman really bad. Koeman being a decent fellow probably will sit out his contract with Ajax, certainly will stay for next season. Van der Vaart is destined for Barca (it's the club he wants to play for, although his form is lacking these days and I suspect he will have trouble adapting to the level required in the Primera). As for Chivu, he's been linked with Real for ages. Since he's such a nice guy I would love to see him play for Real although it will be very difficult for him to be "the next Hierro".

I really hope Duff doesn't go to United. I also hope Nedved doesn't go. I would cut off a few fingers to see one classy player at Liverpool next year.

We, are, in, the, final, of, a, European, cup!!!

We. are. in. the. FINAL. of. a. European. cup!!!

JUST BRING IT!

Jerry I laughed, only because when he came on I said "they'll need more than Fortune at this stage". Oh dear.

Arsenal's result & injuries from current match look like Man U have the Premiership this season.

#1

*camera points to Jordan in crowd at Blackburn*

"The model, Jordan, there."

*cuts to Dwight Yorke*

"And there is the father of her child!"

#2

*cuts to old woman in crowd*

"There's a woman who has seen - *obviously aware at this point what the next bit is about to sound like but inexorably involved in the sentence* - the best and worst of times."

But Spurs tomorrow won't be a walkover.

Most important result today: Bristol Rovers 2 Darlington 1 - we are guaranteed safety! And Chris's Chesterfield beat Bristol City, killing City's chances of automatic promotion (as well as helping the Spireites avoid relegation).

It got me thinking, well, actually, it sort of throws into question the whole question of trophies. Ultimately, the end result is that a trophy acts as two ways: a) an objective solidification of all those memories, a focal point of conversation, helping to keep the memories live in the years to come (in the "remember we won the UEFA cup in 2003, and Hartson's goal in the Liverpool game") and b) as an 'objective' signifier of footballing 'worth'/ability/quality. (A), I think, as a fan, is more important in the 'life scheme' whereas (b) is really only useful as a weapon for fighting the Inter-fan Pride Wars.

(a): cups' (cup runs?) role for the 'person'?; (b): cups' role for the fan?

So, yes, cups do matter. To me anyway.

And I would be far happier with Bolton and the Hammers in the league instead of Leeds. Gits.

Special props to ITV's Sunday-night highlights programme, for finding ever-new ways to discuss and redescribe what had just happened.

:) It's a slow burner, Jerry.

Leeds survive, thrilling game (although i am mighty biased) Kewel's goal is certainly a contender for goal of the season.

The next step of course is what happens to Reid, i doubt his long term aboility at management but i think Leeds need a steadying hand more than more potential disruption (and i think this summer will be disruptive for the players) so maybe shifting managers and therfore tactics, training schedules etc around may bot be such a great thing at this stage.

Glad to see so many unhappy individuals at Leeds at Leeds survival, UP THE WHITES ("this time next year Rodney we will be champions")

There was serious discussion amongst some of my mates as to whether they'd actually be happier with United winning fuck all and you lot going down. (It was decided winning the title combined with your average Leeds supporter's mental torment would be satisfying enough. And we'll have Robinson and Smith, thanks very much.)

Fuck you.

Leeds have had there shock and will be better for it, next season we will be fighting on one front, the league, we will not be bogged down by extra euro fixtures like we have been and if (and it is a big if) we can hold on to some of our players then we will be contenders again. Leeds financial difficulties are not wholly the burden of leeds , they are a wake up call to all clubs that no matter how big you are you can fall dramatically.

Personally the acheivement of man utd is fantastic - rubbish for much of the season, you pull up your socks and battle through - whilst most other socer stars are off meeting girls, doing ads, going on the telly etc nearly all of the united team are too ugly or socially inept to be part of society and therfore can stay at the training ground improving there skills (see: Gary Neville, Ryann Giggs, RUUUUUUUUD)

(Why you think calling our players ugly is any kind of wind up I'm not sure. So RVN looks a bit like a horse. Who gives a fuck?)

(lets face it you cant critiscise there pitch performance, except when Leeds beat them 1-0 so little sly digs are the way forward)

I don't 'really' know what Props 'means', but I think I picked it up from sinister, quite long ago.

A summer's rest will do him good. Too many people have written him off, and he'll surprise you next season.

what's with City's insistence on superannuated keepers? All the DiCanios in the world can't make up for that....

It sounds like a storm in a test tube to me.

As far as I gather: we do not know whether RF took drugs. We have no real reason to believe that he did. In that context, talk of a 2-year ban is bonkers.

And meanwhile, the Arsenal thugs who showed their true and vicious coloiurs by barging an opponent around after the same match had ended will likely not miss more than two matches, let alone two years.

I do not like to imagine Ferguson's beetroot sense of persecution at comparison.

Exactly, I'd always thought you needed actual proof of wrongdoing before imposing such a stiff sentence.

Course, as the American legal system uses similar loopholes, why shouldn't Man U? (picture wry tone for attached statement)

Regulation means decisions being made regardless of who is upset by them; sometimes they go against you. C'est la vie. Well done Mark Palios.

exactly my view on this, Rio should play, even if he's hopped up on Goofballs.

My understanding is that it's pretty difficult to miss a compulsory random drug test. The thing is, even if it is all some horrible misunderstanding, 'forgetting' to take the test must be treated as severely as failing the test.

I'd be very surprised if it ends up in a two-year ban.

How would the "England can't do without him!" hysteria be playing out if he was injured? It wouldn't.

Having said all that, I think performance enhancing drugs should be allowed.

My first thought was I agree, but then I realised I didn't really understand the process by which this works (and still don't). I had thought that players are just told after a match that they have been selected in the dressing room for a random drugs test and that they have to stay behind until they have given it. But for the 'forgot' excuse to not be totally counterproductively nonsensical, Ferdinand's test must have been scheduled in adavnce somehow. How far in advance? Just before the game or was this a regular check that happens in addition to random spot tests?

I didn't realise till this morning that although he didn't end up actually giving the sample for 36 hours, he offered to within 2 hours. Why the hell was there this delay? Surely this isn't his fault.

You refuse to take a drugs test - fair enough, you have to get treated as if you have done the drugs. But could engineering a 2 hour delay really make any difference to your sample?

I look forward to the FA targetting the swindlers and no-marks who run too many of our football clubs and do far more harm to the game and its reputation than any amount of pushing and shoving or any amount of missed drugs tests.

ok I'll calm down now.

It felt like the end of something. I was reminded of Lpool-Arsenal, May '89. Siralex should've gone out at the top when he had the chance.

I wouldn't write them off, people have been doing so for years now, but there just seemed to be something lacking in that United side - be it Keane, Beckham, whoever.

Is Ferguson paying the price this season for not signing players with immediate impact? I mean, shelling out a load for Ronaldo is all well and good for the future if he fulfils his potential but there does seem to be a huge gap between the old hands and the great young hopes in that side and not much bridging that gap. Saha may well be the exception here.

That offside decision against Scholes was shocking. Two defenders beyond him, I have no idea what the linesman was thinking - he called it really late as well.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39938000/jpg/_39938783_fergie203.jpg

WE (WE BEING THE MIGHTY ARSENAL, PRIDE OF THE SOUTH) ARE GONNA BEAT YOU TO THE PREMIERSHIP TITLE, THE FA CUP, AND IT LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE ALREADY BEATEN YOU TO THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE!

"WE LOVE YOU ARSENAL!"
"AND PORTO, UR COLL TO!"

Manyoo Manyoo - hijos de puta!

But still, ha ha.

I liked the self importance of all the post match - my God, Man U aren't in the last eight, it's the end of the world kind of stuff. Welcome to reality, boys.

They miss Beckham badly, and Ferguson really should have bought Southgate. Ho hum.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38721000/jpg/_38721789_taibi150.jpg

but had it not been for a dubious free kick in the 89th minute this would have been exactly the right way to have played the game and everyone would be saying so this morning as a result. never mind that Utd didn't play that well they were very very unlucky not to go through last night.

They miss Beckham because it was his ability to 'cross' from 50 yards out that gave them the ability to score freely in Europe, especially at OT; the ball moves quicker than people, and defenders backpedalling are vulnerable.

I thought United played OK.

Their disallowed goal should have been allowed.

I am not glad that they are out of the competition.

I don't think Porto's victory a shock: they had won the first leg after all, and are one of Europe's great clubs.

i am pleased by man uniteds departure, and also the manner of it.

As I said upthread, all the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth from pundits/players/fans who seem to think that Man Utd have a divine right to get to at least the quarters every year.

I feel that Porto won the psychological battle.

I think they have an ex-Real Sociedad player.

I miss Beckham.

I liked them a lot, good and solid in the tackle, and some of their passing was very very good, nice and crisp.

spurs are fifth rate.

x-post: extra refreshment for gareth.

*good and solid in the tackle*

which sums the game up quite well, in a way.

I thought they looked good last night, and see no reason why they can't win it.

Those two should have played from the start, but then would they have done so well out of the free kick with no McArthy to smack it?

And has Howard said why he flapped at the shot so badly yet?

yes looking at the teams left, Moscow permitting, i don't think they'll have a longer journey than to Old Trafford

(way too late for this 'joke', dammit)

From tonight's games I think Milan, Real (after a very close game with Bayern, maybe even extra time), Monaco and Arsenal will go through, and I'd make Real (or if they beat them Bayern) and Arsenal favourites, with Milan a close third.

madrid v arsenal final most likely tho, as long as they are kept apart til then

Hey PJ, Athletic Cloob were rubbish.

But Valladolid are a bunch of Hijos de Putas

and their player Roberto Losada is now everyone on the trip's tip for the future - he good

Bar people were pretty friendly too, if a little bemused to see 14 hairy arsed englishmen tramping into their establishments.

also the atmosphere was pretty erm herbal

What can it all mean?

Having your say on 606 - dud, or dud?

The problem might be that Chelsea have stolen the crown of financial supremacy from them, and that Manyoo have lost that one trump card (see the Robben signing, for instance).

Saha isn't pivotal, but he is useful for removing the over-reliance upon Van Nistelrooy. They need a serious replacement for Beckham in midfield, and a long-term replacement for Keane. Why exactly is Darren Fletcher keeping Kleberson out of the side? He looked pretty mediocre today.

i think the current problem might not be the quality of the signings but the cohesion. kleberson's cracking for brazil and ha had one or two good games for man u - djema god knows - ronaldo's alright but none of them have anything similar in their style of play. other than being classless diving cheats (nistlrooy--->plastic ronaldo). it's hard to see what type of team ferguson's trying to build this time, where you know arsenal just want to be that fluid unstoppable force and chelsea something similar if a little more staid (ranieri is italian after all so would go for defence)

The idea of Chelsea as a defensive team is silly. They may have one of the best defences in the Premiership but they're hardly classic Italian material.

Today is as close football will get to a Star is born with Fergie presiding over the sad demise to his career at the same time that a new 'kid' comes to start a glittering career. If I didn't dislike them so much it would almost be poignant.

Also - Man Yoo - I thought they were teetering the season after Maclaren left; maybe they were and Querioz papered over the cracks, that ultimately, the Lord Ferg has lost it. It was his basic desire to be rid of the boy Beckham, and his decision to not buy a defender and I'd be surprised if he wasn't behind the agressive stance on ferdinand, nott to mention his steadfastness over the Cock of Gibraltar which seems to have destabilised the club.

i agree but he made a schoolboy error prior to Sinclair's goal and it didn't look like a sign of not being fully fit more just a gargantuan brain mong moment

Saucer of milk to table 2...

haha neville's "wtf??" look is gold

"oh no, own goal, the gaffer's going to kill me"

Adam, what happened was that that goal up there wasn't given.

Spurs will fail to qualify for Europe by two points now. Mark my words.

will Ray Carroll play for Utd again? he put Barthez to shame with his erratic tomfoolery

Never a goal!

maybe the referee was American.

haha, that's the spirit. you know he MIGHT play because it's as if Utd lost the match or even conceded any other goals...

Stop trying to break Chelsea strikers though. I don't want them to sign little Jermain just yet.

i remain unconvinced re:cristiano ronaldo. just one goal this season - and that's after hundreds of failed attempts at goal. not much in the way of assists either. he is young and will improve, but the old weaknesses remain.

i'm more disappointed with rooney. 4 goals or something in the league this season? this is from a dude who doesn't even bother with passing! god.

i seem to remember united being very prolific with goals with just van nistelrooy as the striker. like, before they bought saha, smith and rooney.

same stands for rooney as for ronaldo, i guess - extremely patchy level of performance, but one has to take his age into account. can't help but be a tad disappointed though, yeah.

manc fans were very vocal last night. they seem to have a issues with their sexuality.

The 'Chelsea Rentboys' chant has been around for a few years. I'm not condoning it, that's just an observation.

Gabriel Heinze looks like being Manyoo's best recent signing. He's a bit of a nutter, but like that's a bad thing when you're Alex Ferguson.

Heinze is the new Stuart Pearce. P.H.Y.C.H.O

personally, speaking i covet smith. cracking player. wish we'd gone for him in the summer. as for rooney, i think mourinho let you have him cos he didn't fancy the circus that comes with him.

heinze is the new tarrico.

Yet another reason for me to dislike them.

Chelsea will win the league for the rest of time, unless Abramovitch goes to prison.

whta like blackburn carried on winning for the rest of time? er.....

I'd like to take comfort from Blackburn's rapid collapse, but I don't think it's the same thing. When Jack Walker arrived on the scene (in 1991?) his personal fortune seemed like a hell of a lot of money. Don't forget Michael Knighton had nearly bought United for about £20M a couple of years before (until it turned out he didn't have the money). By the time Blackburn were defending their title in 95/96 the Premier League had become far richer than it was before and Walker's wallet didn't seem nearly so impressive.

It's difficult to see the same thing happen to Chelsea. It's pretty much impossible that Abramovitch's billions will be matched by any other club, or that the premier league is about to experience another boom which will make his billions seem like small money.

Ok, wtf. Have Chelskov kidnapped a player so Man U can't sign him? Any Norwegians around the boards who can shed more light on what the hell is going on here?

Perhaps this thought is not very new.

Can anyone recommend a history of the rivalry between United and City?

"A-Z of Manchester Football 100 Years of Rivalry 1878-1978"

"The Pride of Manchester - History of Manchester Derby Matches"

They're both ancient though (1978), i don't know of any covering up til modern day. can't recommend either, as i've not read, but i was looking nfor sometihng similar for a brother's birthday lately and i think these were all i found

Hey, thanks! I'm gonna check these out asap...

np, just as i said i can't stand over the quality or anything

do you have some specific interest in this roxy? afaik the traditional rivalry is w/ liverpool (east/west lancs rivalry traceable to victorian era resentments if not before) and to a lesser extent w/ leeds (yorks/lancs)

since man city were taken over by some sovereign wealth fund the rivalry w/ utd has been exploited for commercial ends

i dunno about leeds 'to a lesser extent' than liverpool, which is mainly based on jostling for success, geographical proximity notwithstanding. utd-leeds have had strong mutual antipathy going back to at least the 70's, where i'm not sure that there was any great footballing rivalry with liverpool until united's 90's resurgence?

could be 100% wrong about liverpool/utd rivalry, tbh, just wouldn't underestimate the rivalry with leeds relative to it.

yeah the leeds rivalry is supposedly rly intense but they have that nf rep

the only leeds kid i knew at school was a huge fan and srsly racist, it's kinda a weird city cuz there's plenty of wealth around there and quite a large jewish population

not sure either of those things preclude racism tbh, but we're digressing

One thing about Man Utd and Liverpool is I can't think of any players in recent history that have moved from one club to the other. With Leeds though you've got Cantona, Rio, Alan Smith etc, all the way back to yer Joe Jordans. There's like there an embargo on Liverpool players at Old Trafford.

Talking about direct moves there btw, not yer Michael Owens.

it's more that finances and pride have never reached the relative ebb it would take between liverpool/united in the past ?20? years.

leeds, well they've needed the money.

phil chisnall, 1964 last direct transfer between two clubs, and we all remember how he turned out, right?

Yeah, haha Phil Chisnall, shit yeah.

saying that re: leeds having to sell to utd- maybe they still felt that they owed them after getting johhny giles tbh

o that crazy phil chisnall, what a guy

At Liverpool he only managed nine appearances and two goals, before moving on to Southend United in 1967. He finished his career with a season at Stockport County before retiring from professional football in 1972, when still only 29.

Hmm didn't fair too well did he?

compared to n'gog he's not too bad, rly

i mean nobody really expects n'gog to still be getting wages out of this craic when he's 29- do they?

there wasn't rly a big wealth/prestige gap when cantona moved

Cantona wasn't all *that* expensive at the time either iirc, it's not like they made all that much out of it.

£1.2 million apparently, fucking bargain.

can't remember the story behind that, think wilkinson had called ferguson to bid for someone (maybe irwin, tho i may be getting that mixed up cos they'd released him earlier in his career) and ferguson basically says 'na no sellin but a'll gie ye a million for yon french cunt ye have' and wilkinson just went for it out of the blue to the surprise of all concerned. cantona probably spoiling for a move at the time, maybe

yeah as told it was all done w/ a few phone calls, which would never have happened w/ liverpool or city

admittedly that's more to do with rafa's bills not being paid by the yanks in the last few months i'd say

to answer the q i read a book that talked a little about red v blue rivalry and how it seemed to go along class lines and lines of spec. neighborhoods in the 70s. so yeah, a specific interest i suppose

ok then in that case an older history will prob be a lot more along those lines anyway- the big rise in the profile of english football (and especially united) would have skewed the type and demographics of the rivalry from the 90's onwards.

(tho united have always had p widespread international attention i suppose)

Just briefly: the 'traditional' rivalry is definitely with City. The most intense rivalry, certainly over the last 30 years or so, has been with Liverpool. Leeds are third on the list of rivals, but the hatred from Leeds towards Man Utd is much stronger.

^ well yeah, but I see the Liverpool rivalry as becoming more or less equivalent to the Leeds rivalry for much the same reasons, and maybe even less once they get relegated.

One thing about Man Utd and Liverpool is I can't think of any players in recent history that have moved from one club to the other. With Leeds though you've got Cantona, Rio, Alan Smith etc, all the way back to yer Joe Jordans. There's like there an embargo on Liverpool players at Old Trafford.

There's an embargo on selling to Liverpool.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2318053/Alex-Ferguson-No-Liverpool-move-for-Heinze.html

"Ferguson's position is that he will not sanction the first transfer between Manchester United and Liverpool since Phil Chisnall joined Bill Shankly on Merseyside in 1964."

Then again he wouldn't sell Real Madrid a virus so things can change when you're $1bn in debt.

My favourite way to wind Liverpool fans up is to tell them they're not the enemy any more.

yeah the people running up the $1bn debt are the really enemy

for which club?