let the games begin... (P&J02 is here)

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The site isn't linked yet, but you can get there by typing in the following address:

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/

So have at it!

― anonymouslurker, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

It's FORBIDDEN!!!

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah.

When is the 'street date'?

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

damn, i hope its not this week

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Wilco = kill me now.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

It's on the street Tues. night. Date of paper is Feb. 12-18.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Michael Daddino owns the comments section. He's got, like, 50 of 'em!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

There are so many ILX people in the comments section! Not mine though but that's OK cos they weren't very good.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

My old good one was about the Rapture but it was way too long.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

My Massengill commercial joke got in.

― Carey (Carey), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

my joke predictions of a few weeks back were/are worryingly OTM; but what happened to bob?

― zebedee, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I saw a couple pages then was reprimanded by the powers that be. I always look at some ballots first, and all I can say is I wish I had actually cast a vote for what is apparently my #1 single (not even one of my top 40 choices...a song I've barely even heard).

― s woods, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Where are all of you reading this?

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Michael Daddino owns the comments section. He's got, like, 50 of 'em!

Hurrah! Well deserved! I was so late with mine, I am sad. :-( But they wouldn't have been much anyway, I'm thinking. Bring on next year instead!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Where are all of you reading this?

Keep trying the link above, occasionally it works.

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

The page is working intermittently. You just have to keep plugging away. Or else wait til later...nah.

― Carey (Carey), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

i can't get it to work and apparently my weebles comment went in :(

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

If it says forbidden, simply refresh. My colleague is currently 1100 deep into the Best Of 2002 list.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Me and Sasha Frere-Jones were the only people in the WHOLE WORLD who voted for the Bedingfield album. :(

And I was the only person in the WHOLE WORLD who voted for Scooter in either category. :(:(:(

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I got it to work. Just keep trying.

Heh. They made a mistake and have two entries for Disco Nouveau making it 196 instead of 215. Bad Village Voice bad!

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Also ph34r the line-up for the Sugababes album!

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

haha tom why are you even going to bother doing the focus group now?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

er... I made a mistake too... I meant to say 215 instead of 196. Bad Aaron W bad!

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Evverytime I read this thread title I think it's going to be a Gilmore Girls thread.

― Carey (Carey), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Clearly the only reason to do the Focus Group now is to share my wit & brilliance with the rest of the world. Like, duh.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

No surprise I only got one comment...wasn't even expecting that.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"doing the focus group"

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

dan perry to thread?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i think we got greedy and broke it. i still cant get in

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually the reason for doing it is so ppl who aren't rock critics* get to play - in future I will be more pro-active about this seeing as we 'are winning' critwise.

*i.e. who will vote for SCOOTER.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

supertramp fear still looms large over the american rockcrit landscape. perhaps too large...

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

There was a thread recently talking about which critics conformed most to the eventual winnahs of the P&J; I feel like I'm the reverse of that: most of what I picked, I was the only one who voted for it at all. I can't believe that of the hundreds (thousands?) of critics polled, not ONE other person rated David Holmes' Come Get It I Got It. I mean, more people were with me on Kristian Hoffman's &, which I thought was far more obscure (though I'm glad he got the recognition!).

I'm also glad Mountain Goats got more than just my vote...looks like a bundle. Still fighting through the "forbidden"s to find out where they placed.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

2 years ago I think I was the only person who voted for D. Holmes "Bow Down Before the Exit..."

― Carey (Carey), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Tom needs to finish the FG because I'm NOT in P&J

― jm (jtm), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

boo! 'slave 4 u' was 2001 mark s!

― zemko (bob), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

wow my ballot is TOTALLY fucked

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i hope donut bitch appreciates his NUMBER 2 placing in my list (no offence bri, but you were at like 6 or so)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

btw, go bob go:

Meanwhile, history sucks, and headed by two of the dullest works of well-turned semipopularity ever to contemplate their own impotence, our 29th or 30th poll sucks right along with it.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

If someone with any connection to Ze P&J is reading this, my singles list has a big error, too: "Was You" is by Mary Margaret O'Hara, not Maureen O'Hara.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

The two or three ballots I've read prior to this are all mucked up, though mostly I gather in terms of the ordering. Luckily mine's not AS bad as I assumed (rather hastily and in my pissed-off-ness) above. I see "Rapture" at the top of my list, which I initially took to mean Rapture the group, instead of "Rapture" the song (by !!O)...I did vote for the song, but not as my #1.

― s woods, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Forgetting what you voted for: C/D?

― s woods, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

So who compiles this thing? Trained monkeys (i.e. interns)?

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

i forgot too, scott

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Dubplatestyle: this is is like checking to see how many of your friends got their pictures in on yearbook morning
xo maura ox: i know!!
Dubplatestyle: http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/voted_for.php?titleid=101547
Dubplatestyle: who's the OTHER guy??
xo maura ox: he's totally trying to BREAK YOU GUYS UP

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

two of the dullest works of well-turned semipopularity ever to contemplate their own impotence

Pretty strong words from the Dean there. Way to zap it to those impotent, semi-popular strivers. So we turn over to the Dean's list, expecting to find a bracing corrective to these misguided choices, and what do we find? At number 1, the Mekons, who barely even qualify as semi-popular despite years as perennial critical darlings, and at number 2, the "well-turned" but underwhelming sophomore effort from DJ Shadow, semi-popular purveyor of instrumental hip-hop. Perhaps the Dean forgets that when he points his finger, there are three pointing back at him.

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Here's my lone claim to infamy, or something. Sad?

― s woods, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Forgetting to select singles *and* submit comments = the ILM shame.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Scott noone else voted for Tuuli either!

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but that one hardly surprises me--no one aside from two eye weekly readers (me and my wife) has ever heard of them (except for Sterling, who let me down on that one...).

― s woods, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/voted_for.php?titleid=100345

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/voted_for.php?titleid=100806

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/voted_for.php?titleid=100308

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/voted_for.php?titleid=100654

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/voted_for.php?titleid=101587

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:09 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/voted_for.php?titleid=101810

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/voted_for.php?titleid=101873

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

you're totally gonna do well in that glenn reynolds calculation jess

― maura (maura), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

to those who doubt it i say PH33R MY ANTI-POPULIST WRATH

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just about to say that--Glenn MacDonald...

― s woods, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

whoops, yeah, mcdonald. i am reading way too much poliblog commentary these days, augh

― maura (maura), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't believe you're the only one who voted for Horsepower Productions.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I liked the Tuuli record, Scott, but not quite enough to put it in my top picks of the year.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

And holy fuck, has J.D.Considine always lived in Toronto? Scott, mark, we really need to do a Toronto Critics Night Out every so often.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Scott, on the ballots they seemed to have listed the singles alphabetically by performer. This irritates me, but maybe this was easier for them electronically.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

The alphabetical thing is weird. It makes it seem like a lot of people this year were gung ho on Andrew WK.

― Carey (Carey), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah jess we get it yr. special.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Mine has a REAL ACTUAL mistake :) - "It Takes More" is credited to Linenoise not Ms Dynamite. (Do Linenoise even exist?)

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

They picked my one most nasty provocateur "do i even really mean it" comment.

but also my betty & veronica bit in the personals section.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

haha sterl take your diamond encrusted bee-sodomizing stick outta the ass

linenoise is a terrible name for a band if they do

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, remember that the singles weren't rated by points, just by inclusion, so the alphabetical thing makes as much sense as anything else I guess (though someone would have to spend time alphabetizing everything instead of just entering it as is).

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

And what you've all been waiting for, a link to our Pazz and Jop predictions thread!

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, my best friend Kristian Hoffman coming on strong at #387! Thank you, Sean C. and whoever the other two critics are.

― Arthur (Arthur), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Since last year I never got my hardcopy of the P&J, maybe someone will know the answer to this. Do they include the Personals in the hardcopy? I remember 2 years ago that section was only online and not in the actual issue. Which made me mad as 1 of my 2 comments was in the personals and I had nothing to show mama who is 'fraid of the net.

― Carey (Carey), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

The Voice will probably hate me for saying this, but if you asked them to, they might correct your ballot. I'm sure they can. (Well, not sure, but if they say they can't, I'd bet they're lying.)

They don't include the Personals in the hard copy, which is too bad, because the Personals are always by far the best.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

(we should do something with all the p&j comments that DIDN'T get in)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Not a problem, Arthur. MORE PEOPLE SHOULD LISTEN TO THAT ALBUM.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

(we should do something with all the p&j comments that DIDN'T get in)
Fuck yes. Freaky Trigger article?

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Or a thread, where we can post them (and people can post fake comments).

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah a thread - I wont post mine though, they were mostly just cut-and-pasted from the Download This! piece anyway with no context or anything. The one exception was the Strebts which I'll put on NYLPM tomorrow.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

P&J Comments that Didn't Make It

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Wilco -- AAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!
But I guess I'm not surprised.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

But I'm with The Dean on the Mekons.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

>>>The Voice will probably hate me for saying this, but if you asked them to, they might correct your ballot.<<<

I hate Frank for saying this (ok, maybe not), but yeah, we'll try. I already forwarded the Ewing and Woods and Carruthers mistakes to the compuer people (ditto the thing about that Disco Nouveau comp), btw.

And as I just explained to Scott Woods in an email, basically, a lot of the singles lists that were filed on line (and album lists filed on line, when voters gave their albums 10 points each) are up there in alphabetical (maybe even random) order; the Voice computer people tell me they've got a program to fix this (and will hopefully have it done within the next few days). next year, we may well decide not to have people file on the web at all; it created lots of new problems we hadn't anticipated (especially when voters ALSO sent ballots via email, and the ballots didn't match their online ones...) (no, esp. when voters used all the wrong punctuation marks for that bright eyes album. Almost every ballot was filed with SOME error or other.)

Re: Personals. They're on line; there just isn't room in the paper for them these days. (This year, we had one less page to work with.)

Okay, that's all I'm going to say about this, I hope. Carry on people.

― chuck, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Um thanks Chuck for all the hard work :)

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Erm, why is everybody making such a big deal out of this thing? Is there some big important statement to this that I'm not getting? It's just a list of albums. Eh?

So that Christgau guy didn't like a lot of the stuff that other critics liked, so what?

― Evan (Evan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

sigh.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

See, Tom Ewing's DOWNLOAD THIS! list of the best singles of 2002 was incredibly awesome and a wonderful, interesting read, but that was because he actually went to the trouble of writing about the songs on the list!!!

― Evan (Evan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks Chuck.... it turns out it wasn't trained monkeys but Computers afterall!

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

The best thing about this entire list was Frank Kogan's Top 10.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

the 9000 page suppliment wherein all 1300 contributors write about their top 10 is forthcoming

evan, do you hate democracy?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

(I never would've guessed him to be so on the diva tip.)

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it can be proven mathematically that in any critics poll with a sufficiently large number of ballots, the aggregated results will be less interesting to look at than any one randomly chosen individual ballot.

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

New sport: Diva-tipping.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Next year they should automatically throw out the top ten and start from eleven onwards.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

11 Queens of the Stone Age Songs for the Deaf Interscope 874(89)
12 Solomon Burke Don't Give Up on Me Fat Possum/Anti- 813(77)
13 Elvis Costello When I Was Cruel Island 797(77)
14 Spoon Kill the Moonlight Merge 795(79)
15 Interpol Turn on the Bright Lights Matador 772(75)
16 Norah Jones Come Away With Me Blue Note 712(71)
17 Bright Eyes Lifted, or The Story Is in the Soil, Keep Your Ear to the Ground Saddle Creek 655(58)
18 DJ Shadow The Private Press MCA 625(55)
19 N.E.R.D. In Search of ... Virgin 516(57)
20 Sonic Youth Murray Street DGC 487(48

― er maybe not (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I never would've guessed him to be so on the diva tip.

Me neither (though it's probably just the disco tip with divas sprinkled on top).

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark, that looks like a Mojo list now.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/voted_for.php?titleid=100131

― !! (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Divas, the newest ice cream topping.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha Sean it *totally* does!

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Ow Frank, your Celine love has broken my brain.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I might have placed her higher if she'd done a masturbation song.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

what about that titanic theme song?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(i'll get me coat)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Any thoughts about Xgau's essay? I've read it once; my main thought is that his writing is at its best when he's pissed off, the album titles had me howling with laughter, but honestly I don't think the political situation was that relevant to what I was hearing this year (even to the Toby Keith LP). I think the Bush reign may well have dreadful consequences, but those consequences haven't hit most of us yet. Also, I was swamped in good music this year.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Titanic wasn't this year, Jess.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

how do you get to vote on this?

I would have voted for Komeit, Miss John Soda, Poison and Avril.

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

jel - it's members only, la-ti-da

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

*stews with jealousy*

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i think its interesting that xgau so publicly (and with a hint of animosity?) recognizes the "anti-pop" contingent of p&j voters. especially since - at least in my experience - the p&j situates itself as a "pop music poll" and ESPECIALLY since xgau-style "semipop" typically rules the top 10.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

no fair!

no one voted for Poison!

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I love the search function on that site!

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

What a dreadful year for music. For comparison:

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/search_return.php?poll_year=1984&category=A&keyword=

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

boy, people really bought the Ramones comeback line in 84 huh?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:16 (twenty-two years ago)

anyhow, as has been stated many, many times - 2002: great year for singles, not so great for albums. rather that than the reverse.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

The worst comment I've read thus far:

Alan Jackson's report that he doesn't know the difference between Iraq and Iran is less a callow boast of know-nothingism than a candid statement of the limits of knowledge. After two weeks of the WTC on CNN, how much did any of us know in the face of all that death?
Michael Tatum
Chicago, Illinois

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

further evidence that yankees should just leave country music alone

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

No, wait a new contender:

It's more than a little ironic that the best, most challenging, and often most experimental music in the past year landed in the Billboard Top 10—Timbaland, Missy Elliott, and the Neptunes.
Tim Haslett
Cambridge, Massachusetts

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i wonder if that guy really like alanis

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I love xgau's essay too (surprise, surprise); I like it when he's pissy and the 'God, I've been dreading this all year' remark about Wilco winning was particularly funny, esp. considering how many other people have said the same thing.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

2002 better for music than 1984 was, as far as I know, but I really don't know how good Europop was in 1984, or freestyle, since I had to play catch-up with those genres. But Timbaland squashes Run-DMC. Pazz & Jop polls are not a good indication of whether a year's music is any good or not.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't see what's wrong with Haslett's comment, except maybe the "challenging" part. Or is there this great experimental music somewhere else that beats Timbaland? Tell me where.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

But this is a huge gaffe in the Xgau essay:

"Wilco's drummer is Ken Coomer—you could look it up, and I bet you'll still have to. His most prestigious side credit is an inert track on Jerusalem, which rocks high-octane when Will Rigby is driving."

Wilco's drummer is actually Glenn Kotche. Ken Coomer left at the beginning of YHF's recording. Anyway...

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

i think it might have been the "ironic" part, frank, i.e. a presupposed notion that experimental music normally don't get near those dirty unwashed

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Ken Coomer left at the beginning of YHF's recording.

Well that, and Coomer is a guitarist.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

And does anyone have thoughts about Frere-Jones's essay? I genreally liked it, defining differences between 'Tunes and Timba, though 'Tunes being more 21st century than Tim makes no sense to me, except as the old 1920s stereotype that the future is supposed to be shiny.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess answered the q. for me. Also, there's something odd about this "revelation": it's the P&J conventional wisdom several years running.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

and the future is rarely shiny, cf. my apartment complex

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

the future is female < / 1979 >

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

and females are rarely shiny (cf. my apart-i'll get me coat again.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Frere-Jones forgot GOTTI!

I'm actually really sad that "Work It" won best single cause it's like missys turning into that "woah this is really crazy shit going on not like most of that bland prefab gangsta blahblah" token choice EVERY YEAR.

I mean granted its hella crazy and totally different than most else on the radio, but was it really the thing on the radio that gave ANYBODY the most pleasure this year?

C'mon.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

sorta bizarrely disappointed "Work It" won also; I'd say it's her seventh best single at best.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

but at least it kept "Lose Yourself" outta the top spot

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Well that, and Coomer is a guitarist.

No, Jay Bennett is the guitarist that left. Coomer's a drummer. He joined Uncle Tupelo on Anodyne and left to form Wilco (along with bassist Jay Stirrat), while Jay Farrar and former UT drummer Jim Heidorn started Son Volt.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, most P&J voters do presuppose that the innovative music doesn't get near the great unwashed (or, more accurately, their presupposed notion is that P&J is close to the great unwashed and that innovative music doesn't get close to the cheerleaders and the Top 40 bunnies). Since I praised him above, let me point out that Frere-Jones is the dimwit bigot who wished in '99 P&J that the Voice would run fewer pieces about teen pop and bad metal.

P&J shunned Gotti. The biggest shock is that "What's Luv" only got four votes. You're right, Gotti is the most innovative producer this year, whether you like his innovations or not.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

and agree with xgau that "Oops! Oh My" was the Missy-Tim single of the year; I was pleasantly surprised by how high Cam'ron was but thought "Oh Boy" should been higher anyway.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Yanc3y, you're right, I'm confused. In which case, I think Glenn joined Wilco before YHF recording sessions started, but heck y'know I'm trying not to get involved so I'll just be quiet now.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

"Work It" was a near miss on my list, but I can't think of any single that I did vote for that reached out to as many different listeners, so I think it's a worthy victor. It's immediately recognizable and catchy. Great single (though yeah, I've preferred others of hers too).

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

presumably the more critics get inclusin in the poll, the closer it will actually BE to the top 40

(oh except for that dumm us radioplay thing which fuXoRz up yr charts and transforms them from wicked futurist science into something confusing)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

(Since I actually know Tim Haslett, I'm willing to bet good money that his quote means the exact opposite of what jess says, ie the joke is on pop-haters, not lovers)

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Disagree that more critics means more Top 40. The rank and file of critics are indie-alternative guys who just shovel the shit about being daring and different all the live-long day, and tout Wilco for flouting the record industry.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Also "Hey Ma" should totally have knocked "Oh Boy" off the charts even though I voted for neither.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Timbaland and Neptunes, and I agree that their output from last year was probably the most experimental/progressive stuff to make the charts, but to say that it was the most experimental music made by anyone last year is overstatement. I mean apart from the fact that they use samplers rather than turntables and they're using ocarinas as source material rather than James Brown or Chic, what they're doing with those looped beats is not radically different from what the Sugar Hill Gang were doing in the early 80s. The line of progression has been steady and almost linear - when I think of experimental music, I think of something that makes a nonlinear break with what came before.

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

(As a slight aside - Frank, are your thoughts on the Celine record online anywhere?)

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

he wrote up a really great review of it for da' Voice.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

they shd poll everyone — the everyone who features in the phrase "everyone's a critic" — like they do with eurovision

then it's democratic and dana international wins

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I looked. Not in the database.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

they did that the first year, which is why "There's A Riot Going On" finished so low (it finishes much higher in the 'just us critics' poll) ergo bad idea.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

they shd poll everyone

The Billboard charts are basically that, a poll of everyone, albeit an unweighted poll (a sale is a sale and no one buys an album twice just because they like it twice as much).

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Whoops! Nevermind. Found it with more surreptitous search keywords.

The play's the thing.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

and no one buys an album twice just because they like it twice as much

tangent: I wonder if record company sales to artists count? Is the record industry like the publishing industry?

― hstencil, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

no everyone includes ppl who never buy any records or listen to music

i want to know what they like (and why)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0221/kogan.php ; funniest thing I came across in the search: some Williamsburg punk (I'm so sure) accuses Kogan of being a jazz fusion critic!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

mark: see People's Choice Awards (scientific polling, etc.)

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

no i want unscientific polling (xgau and eddy manning the phones with a big red pen and a notepad, and everyone phones in and yaks)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't pass up the chance to be a dimwit bigot--it sounds even better when you say it out loud--but I should clarify by telling you the old Voice system (or one of the old systems) of tallying votes and comments was even weirder and more capricious than depending on this angry robot they've got now. Emailed comments were printed out and then RETYPED before entering them. This meant a comment glossing Biggie--"Shiver me Timbos!" which may be a bad pun but makes some sense--became "Shiver me bimbos!" which is just insane. And the "pieces about bad metal and teen pop" was originally "BAD pieces about bad metal and teen pop." I guess the repetition produced what they call "reader blindness," which usually happens with pronouns. And I stand by that, though I was only suggesting a decrease, not a boycott. The balance of pieces has changed over the years, as have teen pop and bad metal. Right now, I think every magazine could use some more bad metal coverage. Or maybe just more bad metal.

― Sasha Frere-Jones (Sasha Frere-Jones), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:19 (twenty-two years ago)

(holy christ, does every NY music journalist lurk here?)

― Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Shiver me bimbos!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, every muhfuh ny rockcrit does hang here, ie this thread will get 500+ posts - platinum ILx!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Shiver me bimbos!

BEST MEME-TO-BE EVER.

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't speak for any other journalists, but I only found out about ILM a few weeks ago. But since two different journalists told me about it, the answer might be yes.

When are people going to post more pictures of Sigue Sigue Sputnik?

― Sasha Frere-Jones (Sasha Frere-Jones), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone lurks here (the "everyone" that has a bit part in the phrase "everyone's a winner baby")

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

When the reunion album comes out.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

or is that the "everyone" that has a walk-on in the near-sentence "everyone back to my place (and parse this sentence by bob xgau)"?

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

ha!

please post more mr. frere-jones!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I love that ILM goes "groan sigh Wilco" and then follows up with a careful discussion of personnel (I can only do the "groan sigh" bit, though I guess I half-recognized Jeff Tweedy when he cut in front of me in a taco line). Also it's cute and convenient that Maura and her Mang appear so close together in the list.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Tweedy's got a pretty huge skull, huh? He's like a lil' Gene Rayburn or something.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:31 (twenty-two years ago)

i assumed "wilco" wz a misprint for the "buffy musical"

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I love that my goof about Wilco's personnel gets to be interpreted as being part-and-parcel of the ILM hive mind.

Tweedy moment: one of his kids went to the school right by where I used to live in Chicago.

{/Wilco blah blah}

― hstencil, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Biz Markie has the largest skull I've ever seen in person. It's double-take big, like two-heads compressed into one. And his heart is just as big, people say. But, I'm just saying.

― Sasha Frere-Jones (Sasha Frere-Jones), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha, and Jess the "other guy" for "Grindin'" = one of, like, nobody to vote for Schneider TM: be kind.

Stencil, no hive-mind necessary: it was just a funny sequence of posts, which last I checked is allowed to happen apolitically.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never heard Wilco, which at this point means I'm a dimwit bigot. (Someone needs to send me a freebie.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

gabba gabba one of us hstencil

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

That was me with the Wilco disection, mainly because for a long time (from Still Feel Gone to Being There) Tweedy was my fave musician. YHF did not make my P&J ballot, despite my embarrassingly glowing review of it at Neumu, because it all feels really cold to me now. I'm sick of Wilco in general these days, partially because of poll results like this one.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Kogan: just play OK Computer and Time Out of Mind at the same time. cept not as good.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Nabisco, yeah I know, jus' joshing. Thought it would be funny to postulate me, of all posters, as the representative of ILMthink.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Or just ignore the new stuff and go for Tweedy gold, like "Black Eye" from the Uncle Tupelo album March....

Oh, people should go buy Chains and Black Exhaust (I was surprised to find that I was the only person who voted for it), a comp of '70s soul-funk-garage-R&B singles.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Sasha, ILE not ILM is where the real action is. They had this pubs and bars thread last week where they quoted some guy from the Village Voice.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

we accept u we accept u

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

blimey the hive is buzzin tonight all my gags r lost in the hum

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha, Stencil - how to go from ILM indie-defender to "Jesus you're one of those ILM people" in one move or less: write for P*tchf*rk.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Look, I'm an even bigger dimwit bigot than you realize: I've never heard OK Computer or Time Out of Mind, either.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

that Chains and Black Exhaust comp is pretty great, but apparently hard for some to find (attn Nate Patrin: buy this comp, you will love it)

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I can see you're going to make this hard for us, Frank.

OK Computer = Play Dark Side of the Moon and What's the Story (Morning Glory) at the same time, except not as good.

Time Out of Mind = Play I'm Your Man and Best of Glenn Frey at the same time, except not as good.

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, shit, I have heard Dark Side of the Moon, but that was so long ago that I've forgotten it. I'm such a dimwit bigot, I only listened to it once. I can't tell you if I've heard What's the Story (Morning Glory); who did it? I've only heard I'm Your Man once, and don't remember it except that Cohen's voice was inimitably his. Haven't heard much of Glenn Frey's solo work, that I recall.

Here's vintage 1999 bad writing about bad metal, if you'd like.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, don't take those analogies too seriously. I'm not responsible for anything that might occur if you actually listen to the Best of Glenn Frey.

― o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

What happens if you listen to OK Computer and Time Out of Mind at the same time?

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Frank,Nazareth and yur writing are two of my fave things so that article will always be in my hall of fame. And what's wrong with writing about bad metal? It helps me pay the cable bill so that I can watch Manowar videos on VH1 Classic.( someday you will have to read my liner notes for the Best of Foghat cd. Bad writing 'bout badass boogie boyz.) Wilco will put you in coma.Don't do it!!

― Scott Seward, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I am listening to YHF right now and I'm forgetting that I'm listening to it even as I'm typing. There was a nice bit on one of the tracks, or really there are lots of nice pretty bits i guess but i haven't really notic...zzzz

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

but it wz advertised in the new york review of books!!

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Look, I'm an even bigger dimwit bigot than you realize: I've never heard OK Computer or Time Out of Mind, either.

Haha suddenly I understand why Mark and Frank are friends!

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd really much rather read ILM than most of the comments on the Pazz & Jop this year (hell, I'd rather read my posts than those three sentences of my big ass screed that they printed).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

(Mark, NYRB readers will only become a potent record-buying demographic when someone invents a format that plays for three hours at a stretch: it is hard getting out of a buttoned-leather armchair to switch discs and they just don't make WaveRadio changers yet.) (That sound you hear is Avishai Margalit kicking my ass.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

The record just ended and I woke up.

(only half kidding)

Anthony: I fucking LOVE my P&J ballot and I'm really proud of the streets::talking heads bit I came up with for it even though everyone else likes mark s' streets::fall bit better.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Also can I say how spot on every Jeanne Fury comment was?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

charles rosen don't need no punk-ass disc-switcher: when he listens to a record it's because he's RECORDING IT AT THE TIME!!

(he played keybs on umber's bitch magnet btw)

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I was gonna be flip, Sterling, but actually, yes (who is she?). I think just about everybody else (except whoever reads this, tee hee) is completely full of shit. Or at least the Voice editors decided to print they're must full-of-shit comments.

Oh, and I love my P&J Ballot too. It's the comments that remind me why I like this place so much.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

they're must = their most. I'm a typo freak.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't Blame Me, I Voted For Clinic

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

#200

― s woods, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 00:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't be bothered to unpack a whole article of Christgau's bullshit. Like, if you can't conjure up even the slightest interest in 297/300 artists he's talking about, what's the point of hearing anything he has to say about them, good or bad?

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 01:06 (twenty-two years ago)

of course, I suppose the same applies to basically every other critic on there, doesn't it?

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 01:06 (twenty-two years ago)

yes.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos more or less convinced me that Boom Selection Issue_01 was worth voting for, which is why it has three votes instead of two.

Only four people liked Come With Us -- what the hell's up with that?

Re Chains and Black Exhaust: Blount officially knows me too well now.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

It's just sooooo fucking classic that in Christgau's vitriol against Wilco that he gets Wilco's drummer totally wrong--especially considering the obvious contribution Kotche brings/brought to the band.

This is the kind of egregious error that should not happen at the Voice, let alone in its arguably most definitive issue of the year.

― don weiner, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 03:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, there were a lot of words in that Christgau essay, many of which were big. I kind of lost the thread and started looking at the pretty streetlights out my window.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 03:42 (twenty-two years ago)

actually I thought the biggest gaffe in the xgau essay wasn't him getting the wilco drummer wrong (which sorta plays into his point and who cares anyway) but him not being able to tell it is an elephant and NOT a donkey (donkey?!!!) on 'work it'.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 04:59 (twenty-two years ago)

so is Matos not awake yet or what?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 04:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i wanted to vote in this but chuck never returned my return e-mail. :(

scottpl is prob. still smarting over it, since he wanted to sneak in with me too.

's all good, though. for content: michael daddino has the best personal evah and i've been falling to sleep to wilco's album for the past week and a half, as my roommate finally bought it- it's pleasant.

― todd burns, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 05:53 (twenty-two years ago)

it's not an elephant it's a cockasaurus

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 07:03 (twenty-two years ago)

heh - I bet Matos is slaving away, analysing the data, ruminating for the blog (and guh-loating, number four - go figure!)

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 07:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos has just returned from seeing Herbert play one of the best fucking DJ sets he has ever seen/heard/danced to. (He fucking dropped Robin S's "Show Me Love," people. "SHOW ME LOVE"!!!! He is my personal god-saint now. Or something like that.)

Matos has known the results and even most of the comments for a month, and has lots of other writing to do (hi, Chuck!) so will probably not be blogging any of this for a while. Sorry.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 07:41 (twenty-two years ago)

WHAT?!!!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 07:49 (twenty-two years ago)

first no turkey shoot and now no Matos' ruminating on the p&j?!!!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 07:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh man did Herbert ever bring it!

― Andy, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(p.s. you wanna read me at length here you go: http://www.nerve.com/screeningroom/music/69lovesongs/)

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 08:43 (twenty-two years ago)

is there a list you can't sneak 'rebel girl' on? ;^ )

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 08:47 (twenty-two years ago)

no there is not

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 08:52 (twenty-two years ago)

not one critic voted for the world is flat. shame on you all...

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 09:39 (twenty-two years ago)

p.s. there is in fact a Turkey Shoot. it'll run soon, I hear

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 09:39 (twenty-two years ago)

just in time for the new Cat Power!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 09:43 (twenty-two years ago)

apparently it's all '02 stuff, sorry no cat power (I wish this were unilateral)

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 10:32 (twenty-two years ago)

(meaning "no cat power")

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 10:41 (twenty-two years ago)

:-(

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 10:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha Ha Simon Reynolds was the only person to vote for MC Pitman -- and he did it twice! Novelty records not good enough for the rest of you??

― alext (alext), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 11:51 (twenty-two years ago)

B-but ILXors pushed up "Danger! High Voltage" to 57 (and God willing, top 40 next year)...

― B.Rad (Brad), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 12:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Bummed I was the only one who voted for Hrvatski's SWARM AND DITHER, I was *sure* someone else was a blown away by it as I was.

― jodi, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Jodi! I didn't know you were here. Do you have a link to that? I don't know it, but I know that I typically trust yr tastes.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey nabisco, et al. -- how come no Pitchfork writers voted in the Pazz & Jop? Seems like writing for the site should be make you far more reputable than some of the freelancers they get lists from. Then again, I don't know what's involved in submitting a list.

Partially, I bring it up cuz I feel like PFM writers could have some sway. At least Enon, who put out such a fun record (#15 on Pitchfork's year-end), wouldn't have to languish at #733 (!!) on P&J02.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Q. What's the difference between:

#84 Caitlin Cary - When You Weren't Looking

and

#296 Caitlin Cary - While You Weren't Looking

A. This album should have been #64.

I guess whomever edited Xgau's essay was the same person who compiled this list.

― don weiner, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

You can hear snippets from the Hrvatski on the Planet Mu website (along with snippets from the Venetian Snares LP I liked a lot)

http://www.planet-mu.com

Look in the Discography section, the Hrvatski is ZIQ26, I think (it was delayed for ages) and the Snares is ZIQ66.

― jodi shapiro (burun), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

>>the obvious contribution Kotche brings/brought to the band<<

so weiner, what might this "obvious" contribution be? it certainly doesn't have anything to do with propelling Wilco's music.

and why don't you tell everyone how personnel are listed in *YHF's liner notes? we're all very curious.

― olga, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, Weiner--a technical mistake was made and so the poll is therefore stupid! stupid stupidheads! YOU TELL 'EM!

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

hah, and doesn't xgau's mistake merely highlight his point?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I already said that! Copywritten so don't copy me!

Copy Me

Cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooopppppppppyyyyyyyyyyyyy Meeeeeeeeeee

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

"copywritten"

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

haha jody are you pulling a momus and correcting missy's grammar?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a usage issue! "Copyrighted," dammit!

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

WHO DARE GO AGAINST THE ILL GOTTEN GENIUSESES OF MISDEMEANUR AND KIDD 606?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

*cowers in fear*

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

flaneur

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

pulling a momus!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I suppose next you're going to tell us that "getting your hair did" is not proper grammar.

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

yo Matos -- no need to get so defensive about it; I'd be the last one to say that the poll is stupid. I'd be the first to argue, in fact, that it's the list I've always looked forward to most. And still do. I find it quite credible, all things considered.

That doesn't mean that I'm not going to be curious/critical of a gaping factual error regarding Wilco's drummer or an obvious oversight in which an album was inadvertently put 20 places lower in ranking. These errors may be merely "technical"to you, but considering the reputation, influence, and size of the Village Voice (paging Momus to thread) I'd say I'm not alone in my surprise that they both made it past an editor.

― don weiner, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I suppose next you're going to tell us that "getting your hair did" is not proper grammar.

I can assume that's intentionally incorrect.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Jody, I think "copywritten" was intentional too.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:46 (twenty-two years ago)

b-b-but...

*cries*

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Either way, it saddens me deeply.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

crybaby

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Jaymc: I have no idea how they decide that stuff, but it seems pretty print-oriented to me. I can think of a lot of other issues, too.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

*wipes Jody's tears*

Don't worry, I'm sure we can find one example of Missy accidentally misusing the King's English someday!

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

(P.S. Jody, I don't think recording studios employ copyeditors, so if that's what you were angling for, you may be out of luck.)

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

basically, you get asked. or you ask. although i assume its a lot harder if you ask.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

it's like augusta national with a few more chix and alot more sexual frustration

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

alternately you could get into an email argument with chuck like josh did

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Working as a copyeditor for Timbaland: minimum wage.

Getting a shout out on Missy Elliott's next album: major play.

Getting a verse ("I'm the 'C' to the 'M' to the 'O' to 'S'/don't step to me, I copyedit the bes'") on the album after that: mucho dinero.

...That internship proofreading 50 Cent's rhymes at Dre's studio: priceless.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"alternately you could get into an email argument with chuck like josh did" - uh, details please. do dish.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

"Chuck E. you are wrong about everything you've ever said, please email for further information."

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

ha!

"less writing about Prince and bad metal please"

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

>I have no idea how they decide that stuff, but it seems pretty >print-oriented to me.

And yet...

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/critic.php?criticid=4643

>I can think of a lot of other issues, too.

Like?

― jaymc, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:16 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, but Josh writes for TV Guide

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Whoops -- didn't notice that Josh was already mentioned. Pardon my link.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, ILM associates seem to be one spot of non-print inclusion -- which, so far as I care, is terrific!

"Other issues" wasn't meant snarkily: I'm thinking of things like the fact that Pitchfork has quite a few writers (do you ask them all to vote?) with a more consistent aesthetic (would they turn into a voting bloc and do you want that?) that's not entirely in line with the Voice's (most of the critics included cover wider varieties of material than Pitchfork as a whole does). (Also I don't imagine Chuck being very into Pitchfork: a hunch.) These aren't giant issues, I don't think (I think several of the individual writers actually aren't a bloc and probably would cover a wide variety of stuff), but it's not as if I'd expect them to sit down and give this careful chin-scratching consideration: it's not like they use loads of people from equivalent web sites and I seriously doubt they're all that bothered about the issue.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I think it's less about getting certain people to vote than getting qualified people to--people who cover music regularly, basically.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I am unqualified and therefore unmiffed about shocking Pfork non-inclusion!

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm surprised Will Bowers isn't in there, though.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

How do we feel, then, about voters like Dennis Lim and Stephanie Zacharek -- primarily film critics who only occasionally write about music (at least as far as I know)?

― jaymc, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, but they're at the Voice; frankly I think any Voice regulars should get to vote in all the polls, I love that Michael Musto gets to vote in the Take X polls.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd guess that Pitchfork writeres didn't get in because they didn't try to get in.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

This is the time of year when I always get a crush on Lissa Townsend Rodgers. Beyond that, I found the P&J comments section depressing. I almost always do. Whereas when I read our "P&J comments that didn't make it" thread, I was exhilarated and thought music was wonderful and life was wonderful and I wanted everyone there to make me a mixtape. Something always goes wrong in P&J, has throughout the nineties, at least. Haven't figured out why, and I have to sign off now.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Ryan S should totally be in there, as should Brent D and Ethan P except Ethan P would have been if I'd had his right email address :( (As would Marcello C except I'm pretty sure I did forward his right email address).

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Brent D doesn't exist anymore!

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Nabisco, if the Pitchfork kids want in the poll they have to ask C. Eddy. At least five writers from dustedmagazine.com got in, which was a big reason why Black Dice placed as high as it did.

― charlie va (charlie va), Thursday, 13 February 2003 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh come off it, like half the people who did vote exist!

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 13 February 2003 00:03 (twenty-two years ago)

hahaha

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 13 February 2003 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, whatever, "Matos."

― Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 13 February 2003 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

w-w-why I AM real! I-I-I asd;lr8g6vaw89 DF PO8X7PA7w4 Q43[dfadsacf7e-r!!!!!!!!!!@@@@@@!!!!!!!!

[melts down]

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 13 February 2003 00:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Dudes! No need to tell me what Pitchfork people need to do to get in! JayMC asked me why not and I tried to answer: personally I have very little expectation that Chuck or anyone else in the universe will feel much need to solicit my personal opinion on anything, and don't quite feel the need to pimp it at him.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 13 February 2003 00:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I have not even been very vigilant about trotting it out to its usual streetcorners of late.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 13 February 2003 00:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Well. I was just curious, that's all. I've tossed off an e-mail to Schreibs about it; perhaps he'll reply. Also, nabisco, capping the J is fine, but capping the MC makes me feel like I should be wearing an Adidas tracksuit. Not a very catchy tag, though, is it?

― jaymc, Thursday, 13 February 2003 06:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks to Sterling, what's screaming at me as the REAL story of this P&J is the absence of Irv Gotti: absence from Frere-Jones's essay, near absence from the comments (I was expecting at the least a slew of denunciations, and there was only one), and a measly four votes for "What's Luv." Astonishing. I expect metal and Eurodisco and c&w to get short shrift, since most voters aren't listening and don't care; but Gotti was the main figure this year in what a lot of them think is the vanguard genre.

I'm fine with my singles list, don't think anything should be displaced, but to be honest I knew damn well that the Ian Van Dahl was from 2001, and I kept it on because I wanted to keep "Long Time Gone" and "What's Luv" off, since both angered me for ideological reasons: "Long Time Gone" for having no electric instruments and for those reactionary lines about tired but not Haggard, money but no Cash; "What's Luv" for Fat Joe bragging that he wouldn't go down on Ashanti. (However, Fat Joe does rap on that Tony Touch single I voted for.) Not that I think that most voters were lying in not voting for "What's Luv": if you don't like something's sensibility you often don't like its sound either. In any event, Gotti made hip hop for girls, and not our kind of girls, either.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 13 February 2003 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

What do you think are Irv Gotti's innovations, Frank?

― Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 13 February 2003 06:24 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not frank, but he makes disco-rap records in 2002, which is a pretty fucking big deal, considering.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 13 February 2003 06:26 (twenty-two years ago)

although the problem is that he's been doing this for a number of years now, just not perhaps as commercially successfully as in 2002 (although when you're dealing with singles which are routinely top 40, if not top 10, that's pretty relative): cf. ja rule's "livin it up", a track on dmx's last album which was a bit like the incredible hulk as the studio singer for salsoul...i'm not sure if they were produced by gotti himself - in fact i'm sure the dmx track probably wasnt - but both bear his fingerprints. he makes tracks which are "girly" but "hard", he's blurred the line between mod r&b and hip-hop probably most strenuously and consistently of any producer in the past few years, but unlike timbaland or the neptunes its by bring the "r&b" (in the classic sense) into hip-hop. he also has pretty string and chime and glockenspiel sounds.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 13 February 2003 06:33 (twenty-two years ago)

that last sentence is very true.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 13 February 2003 06:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Frank, if you had to try so hard to keep "Long Time Gone" off your list than you must have had reasons for liking it as well. The Merle and Johnny lines I agree are somewhat suspect as I can't imagine that the chix lose that much sleep over who's on country radio just as long as they are. I think it was a naked bid to boost their banjo afficionado street cred,yet even there it doesn't make any sense cuz then they would have been rhyming Krauss and Dirt Band with gingham blouse and across this land or somesuch.Plus,the idea of cash and haggard being sandwiched in between the new romantics of the current c&w scene would just sound so wrong and weird. Like jellyroll inbetween miles and trane. What I loved about that song was that it managed to sound so mod despite the olde tymey trappings. It was great punk-pop disguised as amuricana.Their re-working of Stevie doesn't sound half as refreshing or exciting. Shit, I never really paid them much mind before I heard that song. They were cute and all...

― Scott Seward, Thursday, 13 February 2003 06:50 (twenty-two years ago)

another interesting thing about gotti is precisely what frank was talking about above: he gets none of the love from critics that timbaland or the neps do, none of that slobbering to make up for the fact that they finally have an auteur face to put behind all this wet'n'shiny mussolini-machine-music. gotti is so goddamned mercenary, a bit retrograde all things considered, and very much a "classic black entertainment entrepreneur" in the berry gordy sense (while i've no doubt he loves hip-hop as much as you or me or krs-one, his genius is as much navigating and exploiting cutthroat capitalism as it is programming rhythm boxes): his output as such will be a lot easier to dissect in the future, not only removed from its immediate context but also without the weirdness - either commission-based (the neptunes) or sonic (timbaland) - of the other major producers of his day.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 13 February 2003 07:01 (twenty-two years ago)

by that i mean, sfj is right: the neps may well go on to produce blink 182 and u2 and the master musicians of jajouka and timbaland may well go on to surround himself with a collection of musicians and either launch deep into the guts of his machines ala lee perry or get on his pony and ride into the sunset ala marley marl and pumpkin and everyone else people try to tell you never fell off. but while murder inc. is no motown, it operates very much within the same context of upwardly mobile, very "black" pop, and while motown had several of its own revolutions (i can't wait for murder inc. to go through its "psychedelic" phase), you'd never expect gordy to greenlight the mekons or chuck mangione or good charlotte. (or the fall, ha ha.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 13 February 2003 07:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Kogan I love Gotti but despised "What's Luv" mainly coz of the Ashanti hook even though I liked her fine on "Always On Time" and whatever other tracks she sang the hook for. I voted for "Down 4 U" instead (which got one other vote -- Laura Singara with a GREAT singles list and better-than-average alt-albums list) which I consider the prototypical circa 2k2 gotti track -- as swirling and granular and gravel-vox as anything he's done. Plus its a total Murder R&B showcase track.

I also cast the ONLY vote for "Last Temptation".

[Also Jess his sound as of Pain Is Love in 2001 totally switched up from what it was prior (I talk about this in my voice article on Ja Rule) and started to rilly downplay the disco in favor of this sonic growl thing which isn't as disturbingly organic as say timbaland's pony, but neither is it as upbeat or offputting -- more like textural tapestry. I think "Every Little Thing" was the apex of his disco-output where the gamelan was so precise that it made no sense without the vocals while now the vocals just seem to emerge spontaneously like man crawling out of primordial ooze. Also gotti has NO FUNK but he has lots of drive like all his fanfare trax, especially for ODB's N*** Please and he brought it HARD on the more technoid disco end of fanfare with "Can I Get A..."]

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 13 February 2003 07:09 (twenty-two years ago)

It's bedtime, so real fast: Jess and Sterling said most of it; Gotti's more recent stuff (compared to "Can I Get A..." back in '98) mushes the r&b and the hip hop elements together, so you don't simply have, like, here's the r&b song and then here's where the rapper gets a verse, or here's the rap song with someone singing in the chorus. The rapping comes close to sounding like singing, and the rapper finishes the singer's lines and vice versa (just as rappers used to finish each other's lines). Also, Gotti is the most electro (or Miami, or whatever you want to call it) of the big-time NY hip hop producers, which is what I guess Jess means by disco-rap, though obviously "Cars With the Boom" got onto (or near) the Top 40 with it a decade before Gotti. (And what about Whoot/Whoomp Whatever It Was? Etc.) Honestly, I often don't know which stuff Gotti hands-on produced and which he was just the general impresario for. If he was the guy who produced Ja Rule's "Between Me and You" (I thought it was Timbaland when I first heard it, and maybe it is), he can be credited with setting off hip hop's recent Asian craze - I mean, hitting big with it first (obviously RZA flaunted Asia long before Gotti). Unless someone else who I've forgotten about beat him to it.

But usually (and despite my considering "Can I Get A..." one of the greatest hip hop songs ever) I way prefer Timbaland, and this taste of course comes from who I am which includes my social class (or category or subcategory or classling or whatever you want to call it).

Dixie Chicks: Natalie Maines is the greatest hit-me-right-in-the-emotions hot singer in the world right now. And despite its unplugged rigor, "Long Time Gone" rocks (though no harder than the Kingston Trio's equally unplugged folkie cabaret platters did 40 years ago); but previous hits "Ready to Run" and "Goodbye Earl" are less musically chaste and better, as "Long Time Gone" would have been had it too been less chaste.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 13 February 2003 07:44 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'm Real" was probably his most in-between-period track, and its really actually completely unique productionwise, in this sort of light swing groove. Only the trackmasters remix of "fiesta" (i think it was the trackmasters! oh i wish they would do more stuff) really compares.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 13 February 2003 07:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I voted for "Down 4 U" instead (which got one other vote -- Laura Singara with a GREAT singles list and better-than-average alt-albums list) which I consider the prototypical circa 2k2 gotti track -- as swirling and granular and gravel-vox as anything he's done. Plus its a total Murder R&B showcase track.

Amen, that song would be in my top 10. I'm glad someone else liked it. I still haven't sold my Ashanti cd (ok, I tried to, unsuccessfully - no one would buy it), I still love "Rescue," and still really really love "Happy," (which i would rank as my #1 single of the year; surprisingly someone actually did -Phil Dellio, who doesn't vote for albums!), which I am eh, happy, to see placing much, much higher than the other two Ashanti singles (esp. the recycled "Foolish").

I do not have to live my life in shame any longer, nor isolation!!

― Vic (Vic), Thursday, 13 February 2003 08:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Sterling nailed it in his Voice piece - when something is that ubiquitous it's very easy to think of it as "just there" and ignore it.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 13 February 2003 09:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm up at 5 AM so this will be brief and stupid, but working with something I hinted at before, Irv Gotti:Hip-Hop::Chemical Brothers:dance. They were screwed over.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 13 February 2003 11:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anyone else that Mr. Xgau is too dour and pessimistic in his intro?

If this really is "the worst P&J EVAH!!" according to him, does that mean he dislikes Wilco/Beck/Flaming Lips' win even more than Imperial Bedroom and that damned Arrested Development album? I guess we'll just have to wait until the next Q&A to find out what "the Dean" really thinks, and what sounded like a good, hyperbolic way to begin an annual write-up.

― Vic (Vic), Thursday, 13 February 2003 11:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Here's a 1-2 album finish worse than 2002: 1986 (Graceland and Costello's King of America)!

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 13 February 2003 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I forgot the word "think," natch. =)

― Vic (Vic), Thursday, 13 February 2003 12:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Translation question from P&J comments. What do you imagine when you see this
"pomo mindgame ingroup Mensa music"

― H (Heruy), Thursday, 13 February 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

What do you imagine when you see this "pomo mindgame ingroup Mensa music"

Truman's Water and Thinking Fellers Union Local #282 but that's sooooo mid-90's.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 13 February 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

The spirit lives on.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 13 February 2003 14:16 (twenty-two years ago)

And thus two threads are tied together with a bow and knot. ;-)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 13 February 2003 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay I lied I do like "What's Luv" and don't like "Foolish".

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 13 February 2003 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

You Irvoids get little sympathy for me. "Happy" was tripped-out drug fun but Fat Joe and Ja Rule have the most gratingly obnoxious vocal styles I ever heard. The latter utterly constipated, and Fat Joe sounds like he's yelling from the back a room.

And I was the only person to vote for Good Charlotte. Last year, the only one to vote for Sugar Ray's Sugar Ray. Sentimental Spectorized Pop-Punk Anthems of the TRL woild...THAT'S what don't get the respect.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 13 February 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

P&J stats

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 13 February 2003 22:10 (twenty-two years ago)

The Spice Girls' "Wannabe" is back-in-the-day and avant that Nas and Timbomissy ought to learn from but won't, though Irv might, and four autobiographical pieces, except there used to be five of them, right?

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 14 February 2003 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

*ducks*

― mark p (Mark P), Friday, 14 February 2003 00:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Y'all are forgetting about Irv's masterful work on Ashanti's "Rescue" and "Foolish" - "One In A Million" resurrected!

I still check for "I'm Real (Remix)" and "Livin' It Up" most of all though.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 14 February 2003 00:48 (twenty-two years ago)

It makes sense that if Sasha doesn't like the sensibility of some music he won't like the prose of the people who like the music either. You can't guarantee it of course, anymore than you can guarantee that if you don't like a musician's sensibility you won't like his music. What hit me, though, as soon as Sterling mentioned Gotti, is that Gotti gave Christgau an opportunity to raise the issue of taste and social class. And he didn't take it. Nor did Sasha, of course. So how about us?

This is something wrote in Why Music Sucks in 1987:

Coverage is diverse in some "PBS" 'zines, but tone-of-voice, point-of-view isn't. Imagine Spoonie Gee or Teena Marie writing for one. (Would they be welcome at the Voice, even?)

One of my contributors responded by calling me self-destructive.

(Won't try to explain what I meant by PBS here, except to say my metaphor was that the post-punk world had turned into PBS for the young. PBS = educational TV, snooty upper-middle-brow culture, public affairs programming. "PBS 'zines" meant 'zines [like my own] from the indie world. Anyway, Teena Marie types and Spoonie Gee types don't show up on ILx, either.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 14 February 2003 04:51 (twenty-two years ago)

The quote was something I wrote in Why Music Sucks. The proofreading part of my brain must be tired.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 14 February 2003 04:54 (twenty-two years ago)

That's the same problem that vexes basically all criticism, all "academic" endeavors, any project wherein people write about something: the small point is that it's self-selecting, and it's already a particular slice of individuals who even want to write organized commentary, and the large point is that it can never decide what it means by quality -- it has to set up some sort of form and technique and lingua franca to act as a gatekeeper, and it's continually vexed by the issue of whether things that don't conform to those standards are "not good" or just "a different perspective." (You can observe this issue unfold in any art and in any critical project.) It's a surprisingly rare person who can look at something with no evident knowledge of those standards and accurately divine whether its content is worthwhile or not. On some level it sort of is like trying to pick which high-school drop-out would actually do a brilliant job running a Fortune 500 company.

Another slant on this is that it's extremely hard to get a democratic sampling of voices when the thing you're doing is by its very nature the enthusiasm of a limited number of people. This is actually the one good thing about tokenism: done properly it can be the thing that invites the token group to come participate legitimately.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 14 February 2003 05:59 (twenty-two years ago)

That drop-out / Fortune 500 analogy isn't meant to carry any class connotations: it's just that after a while it becomes easy to lean on the organized things that supposedly "qualify" someone to do a good job with something, to the exclusion of those who haven't passed the "tests" but could nevertheless do a great or even better job. The paranoid fear is that minus the tests there would be actual unorganized democracy, with all the infuriating idiocies that naturally entails, which everyone supports in the abstract but becomes a really vexing issue to someone actually trying to collect the "best" possible work to print.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 14 February 2003 06:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Nabisco yr. problem is that you think if you have described a problem you've solved it. Instead you've gone halfway to entrenching it.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 14 February 2003 06:34 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing is, it's the Voice's job as a supposedly intellectual magazine to vex the reader with such questions, and the Voice consistently fails to do so, possibly because not enough readers want to be vexed in that way, but most surely because it's become ever more ensconced in standard "journalism" where the raising of such questions is simply incomprehensible to editors. Compare the Voice now to the Voice 25 years ago and note how impersonal (voiceless) it is now compared to then. (This is not Chuck's fault or Bob's fault. Neither of them is editor-in-chief.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 15 February 2003 01:00 (twenty-two years ago)

here's MY problem with the Pazz'n'jop this year...in the form of a jaunty jingle! (forgive me...I'm not drunk but I might as well be)

Xgau calling to the faraway towns
Now that war is declared and the year’s come down
Xgau calling to the critical world
Come out of the cupboard, all you boys and girls
xgau calling, but damn he hates us
“All your phony Wilcomania: please discuss!”
Xgau claiming that you ain’t got no swing
‘cept for the Neptunes and that Missy thing

[chorus]
A cold war is coming, sales are zooming down
The mags stop selling, so we all must frown
Your critical error fills xgau with fear
Xgau is frowning, impotent and bitter!

Xgau mocks the imitation zone
But you rarely get printed if you go it alone
Xgau calls your picks the zombies of death
Cuz your folk-rock moodies don’t give him no breath
Xgau called me and I don’t wanna shout
But when xgau was talking…I started nodding out!
Xgau called me but I don’t like his A’s
He’s the one with the 9/11 malaise!

[chorus]
xgau called us, yeah, I was there too
And you know what we said? Well, some of it was true!
But don’t color our comments if they’re not worth your while
Cause when I see the full text, full of passion and smile!
I never felt so much a' like!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 15 February 2003 02:49 (twenty-two years ago)

how many rockcrit inboxes is that gonna end up in over the coming weeks? very funny

― James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 15 February 2003 03:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Anthony, that's nice.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 15 February 2003 03:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just thinking the other day that the entire malaise is still explainable by Frank's central thesis in WMS #1. Only that the problem is increasingly boring as well as frustrating.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 15 February 2003 04:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Also this might be the place to note that the order of my ballot was totally screwed up somehow, especially the singles. Did this happen to anyone else?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 15 February 2003 05:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Anthony that is WONDERFUL

― M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 15 February 2003 06:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Tim it happened to EVERYONE else. Chuck's been trying put them right so it might be worth asking

― M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 15 February 2003 06:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha ha sorry I find it hard to keep up with the ILX avalanche these days.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 15 February 2003 06:54 (twenty-two years ago)

A friend of mine emailed me to say that Kylie has been voted "GREATEST LIVING AUSTRALIAN." (Didn't say who did the voting.) 7th place seems rather pale praise for the greatest living Australian (on the other hand, this is the first time she's ever place Pazz & Jop, though not the first time she's ever placed on my ballot).

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 15 February 2003 07:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Greg Norman wuz robbed!

― James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 15 February 2003 07:30 (twenty-two years ago)

As was David Nichols!

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 15 February 2003 08:02 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks for the compliments, guys.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 15 February 2003 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Not a bad year at all.
A dreadful fucking year.

It's gotta be some sinister, Bizarro-like plot to dull our collective senses even further. I can already feel what's left of my brain going numb, numb, numb...

Non-existent artist of the year award goes to either Ari Fleisher or Colin Powell: for lying more artfully to the American people--and therefore the world--than Bush or Rumsfeld could ever hope to (at least while the cameras were rolling, which is after all what really counts, right).

What the hell did Wilco/Beck/Flaming Lips do last year that could compare with that kind of a performance?

― J. Sot (J. Sot), Sunday, 16 February 2003 14:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Kogan is a jazz-fusion critic.

― Cozen (Cozen), Friday, 28 February 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

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