Is Everybody Who Edits the Village Voice Really This Stupid?

Isn't it?

Anyway, can someone tell me which "dance" record labels are "dance-hating?" I'd like to know.

dc in most cases (rtx being one of the exceptions) does not even come close to rocking.

as for Suntanama, more like a burnt out hippy nodding off in his rocking chair with a copy of High Times open on his lap.

also note, however, that because something doesnt rock doesnt mean it isnt good.

still, it's been a long time since dc has really released anything extraordinary. it's roster is now going from grey to white.

good on ya h.

I await his missive re: the hip-hop hating sissies over at Bloodshot.

very little has convincingly "rocked" since the late 70s, and i'm not sure why that's a bad thing necessarily, anymore than lamenting the fact that nothing "swings with the beat of new orleans" anymore.

by this i mean that "rocking" is rarely the primary concern of music which supposedly "rocks" these days. or, even if it ostensibly is, it's way too tangled with other concerns to matter much.

I blame Billy Joel, the man who pioneered the art of signifying that pretending to rock out is just as good as rocking out.

Well, him and the entire pretense of "art". haha

---

a real suprise from the rock-hating piddle-fetishists at Drag City
I don't know what this means, but I can't think of people who "hate rock" LESS than the Drag City folks.

-- Sam J. (xp75hid0...), June 23rd, 2003.

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ac/dc
-- James Blount (littlejohnnyjewe...), June 23rd, 2003.

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Brooks & Dunn have to come out with a single called "All The Good Rock&Roll Drums Are Down In Nashville". alright, that's a shitty title, but it's true. Is that why mutt lange ended up making country-pop?
-- scott seward (skotro...), June 23rd, 2003.

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yeah, ac/dc(who hide all the good drum sounds at their house), and me, and brooks&dunn.we all hate rock less than drag city.
-- scott seward (skotro...), June 23rd, 2003.

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The single is "Red Dirt Road," I think. My favorite songs so far are probably the "Start Me Up"-started-up opener, plus "When We Were Kings," "Memory Town," and "Good Cowboy" (with six or seven more in the running, including Dylan doomsday rap where the Jews fight the junkies, and no, I haven't figured out why they're fighting, or whether it's anti-semetic or junkiphobic for that matter, either. The words are *weird*.) People at In the Red, Sympathy for the Record Industry, Get Hip, Southern Lord, Century Media, and lots of other independent labels hate rock less than people at Drag City. (Man's Ruin is dead, right?) So does Justin Timberlake, probably. Or at least he rocks harder than any record I ever remember hearing on that label. (Though maybe there's stuff I HAVEN'T heard. Maybe I'm WRONG!)
-- chuck (cedd...), June 23rd, 2003

they're probably as concerned with rocking as they are being wholesome.

drag city is indifferent towards rocking is perhaps more valid.

xpost
Oh, shit that reminded of the Drag City Supersession, that def. rocked. Sabbath cover no less!

...because obviously Timberlake and Brooks & Dunn rock in the exact same way?????

I'd have to disagree.

"Rock" can just be an objective assessment ("Scott Walker does not rock") or a subjective one ("Scott Walker ROCKS!") or I suppose one can split the word into two meanings and claim what Chuck occasionally implies--that to ROCK (in the subjective sense) something has to rock (in the objective sense, which remains sketchily defined except for Mr. Diamond's helpful spin). So is he saying that Drag City does not rock (objectively) or that it does not ROCK (subjectively)? Or that it does not ROCK because it does not rock?

Sorry, that botched sentence was the result of a few hasty revisions.

But no one would even care and you wouldn't get the pissy indignant bitching evidenced on this thread.

I mean, I would have expected hstencil to start this thread (surely a "shockah" if there ever was one). I didn't expect the attitudes displayed towards CE's writing from you, especially when you admit that you've hardly read him. The fact is that CE's been a high-profile writer for, what, well over 15 years now. He's written two books that lay out his aesthetic. At a certain point a writer has "earned the right" (tm) to employ an endemic, consistent stylistic trope and not be saddled with constant explication. Do you make the same criticism of the film writers you hold dear when they make use of similar tics? I mean, maybe you do, I don't know! If Roger Ebert showed up on ILF and started making posts using, I dunno, whatever superwords Ebert uses, would you badger him as preciously?

Jesus I'm hungry.

And Roger Ebert deserves badgering for giving a thumbs down to Rushmore and thumbs up to Tomb Raider 2, that fascist bastard *swig*

I like yogurt. I like Drag City. But I never get cravings for either of them. (on the other hand, I agree it's kind of silly to argue that yogurt hates ice cream -- the reverse might be more nearly true -- but it makes for a nice bit of arch commentary which I assume is all that was actually intended)

Big difference between not releasing rock because you specialize in other forms or music and actually hating rock.

any argument that essentially says "they do" will likely a lot of "they do not" responses. Shore up your own argument a bit.

Well, maybe they DO hate rock. So who cares if it's "fair"??

Maybe the album in question simply blows. I just don't see any rock-hating myself, just an absence of rock.

Quite likely a rock band might not want to sign onto DC anyway, for fear of being mistaken as another Will Oldham side project.

now, what about a rockin' ghost album - would it pass the homer litmus test?

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0113/eddy.php

Hey Doom-e, do you like Sour Vein? Or have you heard them? I never have, and it turns out that one of my best friends from high school is their guitarist. they have an album on Southern Lord, I think.

Nerdly aside: I wonder if it would be possible to write some kind of computer program that did a spectral analysis on a clip of music and rated it's rockitude on a scale of 1 to 100. It might save music critics a lot of trouble, and there'd be fewer arguments over who does and doesn't rock. (And no, before anyone asks, spectral analysis has nothing to do with ghosts... or Ghost.)

''They've done all sorts, Mr. Julio, trust me...refer to the AMG for my various rants. ;-)''

nothing like a bit of self-promotion eh?

at least c. eddy does not have to think a) does it rock? an b) will it make a sixteen seem super cool and fly if he bought it. i use the homer litmus test before i say something rocks!

not being taken seriously is rockin'! we are talking about rock'n'roll here, taking it seriously does not rock! listen to me, i love the cult ...

Also, clearly a bunch of people missed my point if they think this thread was supposed to be about whether Drag City "rocks" or not. They could release Eastern European polka techno thrash jazz records for all anyone who reads the preview could care - the point is it said "rock hating" not "rock non-releasing." Why Chuck or any other critic feels they have the authority to make such assumptions is beyond me. And yes, I have a conflict of interest: I only saw the preview because I was looking for the (Smog) preview, written by another author, which only seemed to mention how said author thinks Bill Callahan makes music to showcase his "weirdness," another ridiculous assertion by someone who seems incapable to describe the music or experience in any significant way as to actually help a Voice reader make a decision whether or not to go to the show (not that it mattered: we had 359 at the Bowery that night anyway).

And finally, amateurist, I believe I've only ever gotten in any sort of "online dispute" with Chuck over the dub metal thread. I certainly don't try to bait him, as should be patently obvious. However, no matter how many books he's written, I do feel that it's certainly within my rights to call out anything that I see as bullshit, so that's what I chose to do with this thread. It wouldn't matter to me if it was Chuck who wrote it or whomever; I thought it was ridiculous, and I said so. Why some people around here choose to be so cowed by those they deem the "experts" is beyond me.

HStencil I think you might be reading someone else's post and attributing it to me. I never even mentioned you on this thread or any past conflicts with Chuck. Your words actually could have come out of my mouth, for what it's worth; I entirely agree. I've been accused numerous times of baiting him myself and I don't think challenging a professional rock critic when he makes a dismissive comment in print is baiting at all. And I don't think Chuck has quite explained why the comment was made. In context it does seem pejorative, but at one point on this thread he claims he was just making some kind of observation, whcih begs the question, of what value was the observation alone?

"Featuring three members of NYC free-jazz avant-drone ensemble the No Neck Blues Bland, the Suntanama are an anomaly on rock-hating Drag City. People who've never heard a Point Blank album peg them a 'Southern Rock,' though their lazy drawls are more *Workingman's Dead* than *Street Survivors,* more 'Nantucket Sleighride' than 'Missisippi Queen,' more hippie or grunge than redneck. But they can be dadburn gorgeous about it."
----

And again, if Drag City didn't hate music that rocks, I expect they would put out some music that actually DOES rock. THEY make their decisions about what to release; I don't. And one would expect those decisions to be based on the label's tastes (and what music they think might be profitable with the audience they've established, and so on, but let's not get into that). It's pretty darn simple. (For the record, even Suntanama don't rock as much as I wish they would. But either way, they're straightforward enough to sound to ME like an anomaly. And guess what? It was MY FUCKING PREVIEW. Which means it's based on what MY ears hear. What Hstencil hears doesn't matter at all!)

(x-post)

As far as I can see, they do the exact thing all those Elephant 6 groups do -- take perfectly good '60s rock, subtract all the energy and rhythm and catchiness and push from it, thereby turn it wispery and watery and bland, and pretend that makes it "weird" or something.
-- chuck (ceddy@vil...), March 28th, 2003 5:31 PM.

This seems to be a long-standing gripe with him about a lot of what passes for indie rock.

I like that Big Flame comp., mind.

I have no probs with calling labels that release recs by guitar bands as 'rock-hating'. In fact, that's a what labels should be aiming for.

Rock can't just stay the same, that road leads to wynton marsalis type museum music and that's the last thing I would like.

Were SST rock? obv some bands on it live on 'rock' but they changed it to something by synthesizing (sp?) other precursors together.

Probably true (again, IT WAS JUST A FRIGGING SHWOW PREVIEW, Y'KNOW? --and hey, Amateurist, you use capital letters too --i,.e. "So saying the band 'are an anomaly on rock-hating Drag City' is another way of saying they ROCK. Why not just say that? Or better yet, explain HOW" -- which is fine with me, seeing how italics aren't available here and all.) But again, my point, obviously, is that merely saying "they rock" (which again, they DON'T, not as much as they SHOULD) would have been (even) *less* interesting. Though I keep forgetting that lots of indie-rock fans *like* being bored. I'll make a note of it.)

SST was not a rock-hating label, I don't think. Though it WAS too slow, a lot of the time. (After it stopped being too fast, I guess.) For the record, I always prefered DC-3 to Painted Willie or Das Damen.

(x-posts)

If I take Chuck to task with more tenacity than others here, it's because writing about music is his profession! That seems simple enough to me.

Chuck: I think you're being a little disingenuous. You have put D.C. and "indie rock" down several times on this and other threads, and you have implied several times that to not-rock means something is likely "boring," etc. ("lots of indie-rock fans *like* being bored"). But you have also claimed (above) that you were simply making an observation in claiming D.C. were rock-haters, and that you meant no slur by it. You say it's OK if a band does not-rock, but in such a way as it seems they have to get a special pass to do so.

Hmmm, I just thought of something...

TS: ROCK critics vs. MUSIC critics

amateurist do you honestly still question why people think you're a troll?

I don't think indie fans like being bored - I just think that for the most part (and these are all broad generalizations) they don't find the simple act of rocking to be terribly interesting. I went through a phase of a few years in which indie rock was my primary listening material, and I still listen to a fair amount of it. As an indie listener, I was less concerned about whether something rocked than about whether it challenged my conception of what rock should be. I wanted to hear something rock in a new way. Naturally when you're trying to rock in a new way, there will be naysayers who claim that you don't rock at all. The same thing happens in jazz - you have the traditionalists claiming that free jazzers don't "swing". That's the chance you take when you try not to sound like everyone else.

compare that to the first sentence in this post...

so is it safe to say you've never heard a Point Blank album?

Though only WOMEN bleed, of course.

-- strongo hulkington (dubplatestyl...), August 6th, 2003 1:22 PM. (dubplatestyle) (link)

I can't stand it anymore.

Nah -- Just that I hadn't listened to the Suntanama album closely enough when I made that earlier post. (So the flipflop has nothing to do with my "whimsy".) Point Blank's debut album rocks, for sure.

Yeah, closely. What's wrong with admitting that?... and besides, saying they're called Southern Rock by people who've never heard Point Blank isn't the same as saying the ONLY people who call them Southern Rock are people who've never heard Point Blank. (And also besides, flip-flops in opinions about music are a GOOD thing; always have been. Why would you trust somebody who never changes his mind?) Not that I have anything whatsoever against people who've never heard Point Blank. Whoever the hell Point Blank are. (And also also besides, the first sentence of that link above was FOLLOWED by my hedging about how Suntanama could sure as hell be a lot MORE Southern Rock. So it's not like I changed my mind all THAT much, anyway.)

Okay. I can see that. I could see "rock" rock fans responding favourably to specific songs by RT or FC or even NMH, but certainly not entire albums.
It's hilarious, sometimes, when you write for a large audience, how people will glom on to something you merely intended to be entirely self-evident and offhand, and whatever. Y'know.
Cripes. But, uh, from what I can tell, it was still reckless. Not that that's a value judgment either.

This thread has not lived up to its title.

There are plenty of dance labels who hate what dance music has become, Warp and Music For Freaks are two which spring to mind, but it's unfair to pick out Music For Freaks when there are probably loads of other up their ass house labels out there who whinge about how dated everything is. Also I quite like the Freaks.

Hating what dance music has become is the music equivalent of "Student Feels World Politics Shows Elements Of Injustice". Hating what rock music has become is kind of an erratic beast.

If previews don't count, then why write them? Also, why would Drag City be interested in having me collect them in every town? Duh, Chuck, because they do matter and you know it. I agree that a critic should not be a P.R. hack for the label (there are plenty of those already at most alt-weeklies in America, believe me), but I also don't think that a critic need display so much venom towards stuff that he may later claim he didn't listen to.

(and also it may be that since the night I submitted my rebuttal, I also had to worry about bailing someone out of the Allegheny County Jail the next day, so take this all with a grain of salt.)

You first, rock hater.

Rounder
Deutsche Grammophone
Blue Note

I've found the anti-post-rock and anti-indie backlash so dismaying for the past few years, not because I think anyone has to like the goddamn stuff, but because at the heart of it seem to be certain irritating assumptions about music is supposed to be -- i.e. raucous, fun, danceable, simple, etc. Lots of great music fits those terms, and lots more doesn't. Guitar bands =/= (necessarily) "Rock TRAPPINGS" as Chuck put it. Drag City tends to put out introspective, thoughtful, quiet stuff. I don't find the best of it *boring* in the slightest (Jim O'Rourke's solo work, the better Oldham and Smog stuff). But it's listening music more than "rocking" music. I didn't think guitars came with indication labels about how they are to be used.

I think a lot of the current bands that "rock" are much more worthy of ridicule (the garage revivalists in particular) because their music is such a bland, forced exercise in rocking. And what's worse is that a lot of their fans don't even *rock out* to it, so what's the point of rocking anyway? Not to say that Chuck or any of DC's other detractors necessarily like those bands.

For the record, "Insignificance" ROCKS, IMHO.

Otherwise, um...I think I liked some album on Drag City a lot this year, but I can't think of what it was. (Did this year's Ghost one come out on Drag City? That was nice.) My Rock-Hating Label of the Year Award, though, would possibly go to Temporary Residence, for its sheer consistency in putting on truly beyoooooootiful elevator noise which I could read books and wash the dishes and then fall asleep to.

chuck, do you realize that this reads like self-parody?

Next BOC release: Don't Fear the Tinky-Winky 12"
(someone do better than this, please)

Yowsa!

Also, nothing wrong with falling asleep music; then again I have fallen asleep at some extremely loud shows before.

I also fell asleep during my one and only visit to CBGBs, to see Camper Van Beethoven, of all bands. How not punk is that?

But by all means, proceed.

chuck, do you realize that this reads like self-parody?

-- Amateur(ist) (amateurist@gmail.com), January 4th, 2005.

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(and if it's true it's pathetic.)
-- Amateur(ist) (amateurist@gmail.com), January 4th, 2005.

now I REALLY think it is!

especially when he follows it by saying what it was (Ghost)!

now chuck that's gonna just get you in bigger trouble, as the guy who runs that label is a close friend of mine.

(yeah, most of what he puts out ain't rock by any stretch, but the dude is majorly into some good rock stuff, I can vouch for it.)

-- Matos W.K. (michaelangelomato...) (webmail), January 4th, 2005 8:05 AM. (M Matos) (link)

but he made a point of saying that at first he didn't remember! and it's not clear if the ghost album he mentions is the same one he was struggling to remember. even if it were, he could have simply written, "you know what, i liked the last ghost album on drag city."

obviously this wouldn't be an issue at all--i'm sure i've done the "i can't remember what it was" thing some times--if chuck didn't make such a habit of it (for evidence, see aforementioned pickle bar thread). it's not even a big issue anyway, i was just pointing out what i thought: that it's beginning to resemble self-parody. and (IMO) it's unbecoming a professional critic to repeatedly insist upon not remembering the music he's paid to review.

maybe it really is existential devil's music, after all.

still, that poster who said in 2003 that the royal trux question hadn't been properly addressed was right. besides, i think the howling hex rocks. fortunately, they do more than merely that. 'transmaniacon' rocks but in a shitty way. (shitty rock records tend toward shitty rocking, don't they?) but it's neither here nor there. even so ... it's a bit like complaining in 1971 that harvest records "doesn't rock". drag city somehow reminds me a lot of harvest in its heyday. but who cares? no one reads internet posts on threads no one wants revived.

er, can't remember this thread and can't say much abt rounder and blue note. the latter is very up and down from the handful of releases I've got from it but Deustche grammophone were a great great label. Like I always see some of the old LPs in second hand shops and snap them up and its always wonderful in terms of artwork, notes, and the sounds but I do enjoy much classical music post-50s. There is no doubt they are sitting on some unissued stuff (you can get a cpl of kagel LPs he released on the label as mp3s on UBU web - go check).

What I've heard hasn't been great, but I gave up on Oldham after Arise Therefor and never liked Chavez. I do recall someone on this board saying that a band name involving Wolf is to 2004 what Super was to bands in 1992, so I like the name.

do remember that they haven't had a bad run yet every team has one.

How did this thread survive so long without a single mention of rockism?

And how come nobody has mentioned that a label called "Drag City" might not be the best place to find music that "rocks"?

Hmmm...

-- Matos W.K. (michaelangelomato...), January 4th, 2005.

(Ghost) is the new (Smog).

that's enough, you can all stop now.

Glad to be of help here.

Very deliberately on everyone's part, I'd guess.

"what kind of anal compulsive twit gives a fuck about always memorizing record labels, anyway? The only reason I even look at them, usually, is because we print them in the paper)"

Do you really mean that, Chuck? I sorta think certain labels have a "sound" or a "personality" (Thrill Jockey? Warp? Stax, maybe? Motown?)

What are you saying here, ultimately? That a critic who follows his muse, listens to volumes of stuff because that's what he/she likes to do, and writes from this particular hand-as-dealt-by-the-muses should turn away from these muses, put his/her nose to the goddamn grindstone, and study the *important* albums instead?

Those that think/realize that a label sometimes tries to cultivate a certain *sound*. The fan knows that the label is *reliable*, knowing that if he buys a DC record won't mean it'll be a dance record, he'll probably like the record,...

It's a bit like buying the VV because you know that what's published in it, will probably be interesting. Instead of pageing through every mag in the shop, you just go for the VV.

Are you saying Jan & Dean didn't rock (in their own way)?

I'm with Chuck. I consider band names and album titles to be minute details yet I still wish to discuss things even though I can remember little about them.

That's the best post evah.

What are you saying here, ultimately? That a critic who follows his muse, listens to volumes of stuff because that's what he/she likes to do, and writes from this particular hand-as-dealt-by-the-muses should turn away from these muses, put his/her nose to the goddamn grindstone, and study the *important* albums instead?

-- Tim Ellison (timejeanne...) (webmail), January 4th, 2005 7:00 PM. (Tim Ellison) (link)

i'm saying that perhaps chuck sets out to listen to too much music and write about it! (or "write" about it, if listing albums under "eddytor's dozen" with an often-inscrutable or irrelevant eight-word note can be considered writing.) as a result his standards of criticism ("this rocked!" "i liked it immediately!" "it was great when i listened to it once three months ago, now i can't remember what it is!") are more than a bit facile. he rarely gives any evidence of having *burrowed* into a piece of music, getting to know it really well. it's the old pauline kael phenomenon of "i trust my immediate judgment and never/rarely go back." but records were made for relistening, i believe. well, to qualify a little, there are definitely critics who can listen and review records at a high pace/volume and still manage to say something interesting about them, to get inside them, to get a real feel for where they fit in and how they work. unfortunately chuck shows little evidence of this IMO. i don't intend to be prescriptive here--i.e. i wouldn't know what chuck *should* do--, just diagnostive. (is that a word?)

anyway yeah i remember the labels and all the attendant info about any album i care about. why not? i've spent a lot of time with the music i care out. because i care about music.

read my books. and a few thousand reviews from the past 20 years on top of those. (and don't whine that i "always" tell you that, and then pretend that you know jackshit about my writing.) bye, shmuck.

Take me to your reader, Earthling.

I certainly don't see anyone shouting down Amateur(ist) with such *concerned* gusto on any other thread. That is, threads in which the subject isn't Chuck Eddy, the Man Who Could Take Me-and-My-Little-Rockwrite-Hobby to Real Paying Places!

Not saying that the shamelessly sycophantic displays seen at ILM can be attributed to Eddy's actions or desires, although he does seem to revel in the adoration -- and is kneejerk curt whenever any slight critique directed his way rears its head.

Then you haven't been around ilx very long.

Oh man, who do I have to fux0r to get off this thread?

You may have been looking at it, but it seems you have not been reading it.

read my books. and a few thousand reviews from the past 20 years on top of those.

i've only ever read 'accidental evolution' but amateur(ist)'s compaint is the same i had with that book. it just seemed like an endless string of witty lists and obscure references and oddball comparisons, many of which were amusing and interesting in their counterintuitiveness, but nothing was really *developed*, and after a while i felt like i was being pummeled with fragments. as a result, i didn't really learn anything or think about anything in a new way, which i guess is what i want out of criticism, regardless of what approach it takes.

So what is one to conclude from this? That Chuck Eddy's only critical criterion is that, upon initial listening, if he perceives a record to "rock" he sits up and takes notice, and if said record "doesn't rock" it is "rock hating"? Furthermore, if it leaves no real lasting impression, it can also be labeled "rock hating"? Which is it, then? I don't get it.

Request for Moderation: Please change title of thread to "Is Everybody Who Edits the Village Voice Really This Stupid Fresh?"

wtf they didn't lower rates did they? Usually its like $100. I haven't pitched in months (damn free net taking away my careerist drive).

Best you return to your crack pipe, blount. It's not going to lower the level on your paranoia meter any, but it may just mercifully shut you up for a spell or two.

I do thank you, however, for making me aware of a glaring critical omission in my tossed-off "dancing should be illegal" post. When I wrote that, I never once thought to cater to those who suffer from incomprehension. Meaning I never imagined that anyone would take it seriously.

As for my alleged many posts dismissing women as "cunts/twats", etc., that's certainly news to me -- and one hell of a slander. Putting the name "Lefty" into the search engine right now turned up 33 posts (not ten, as you claim). One of the "Lefty" posts is another Lefty, at that - so 32, then). One dig at Ashlee Simpson, yes, but characteristic of my posts? I think not.

And do stop calling me (and others) "bitch".

(will it get through?)

(why do you feel the need to so doggedly defend chuck anyway? he doesn't really need the help.)

I will give you credit for actually giving a relatively level-headed appraisal of chuck's style. tho you do give him a pass on his scattershot/random references style, which is something I personally find most irritating/unhelpful. but that's just me, and my opinions of chuck are well-known, etc.

let's talk about something else now....

What's kd lang got to do with anything?

http://www.angelfire.com/ky2/bbautos/zsundberg.jpg

What's kd lang got to do with anything?
Dom, now you're gonna confuse people who will think it's really her!

my opinions of chuck are well-known, etc.
I think I read them on a Royal Trux Thread, 20 some-odd days ago

let's talk about something else now....
We could try, but it's this thread so

http://www.europeanbook.com/media/images/2070368076.jpg

i hate reading positive reviews of Pavement. And I say this as a fan.

Why does my lameass g00g13pr00f!ng always bother you, manthony m1cc1o?

-- Matos W.K. (michaelangelomato...) (webmail), January 5th, 2005 2:31 AM. (M Matos) (link)

a "formalist doctrine"? matos, you're not as stupid as this.

You have no goddamn idea, Mr. M. I sped up things by forcing through a written redraft at top speed so we could sit back and let everyone else argue over their rewrites. The sick thing is I think I've actually now written most of the thing by default!

xxpost to Matos's Voice comment:
but they LINK to your stuff, don't they?

xpost to Matos's library comment:
Ned, did you talk about reducing blurriness on the microfiche?

chill
like on,say, "All Things Considered"?

yeah. and . . . ?

I totally disagree. I think rock criticism should follow the model of organized crime.. you know, drive-by's, coke, and shit.

Oh wait...

Uh, no it wouldn't. For one thing, Lefty would accuse me of being one of the ones orally pleasuring Mr. Eddy. (Who I have indeed pitched a couple of things to, though he wisely turned them down as they were usually fairly half-formed ideas at best.)

Ned, did you talk about reducing blurriness on the microfiche?

Part of my relentless modernization drive is demonstrating to professors that, yes, it is in fact much easier to link directly to an article on line than it is to print out a copy and give it to me to scan as a PDF. But I'll spare you further thoughts.

Ned, did you all ingest peyote and sit around in a sweat lodge? That's how we do our vision statements at the library where I work.

We got apple juice and brownie bites.

Oh wait, I think maybe I got mixed up between how the actual vision statement was arrived at (and I certainly was not invited to such an exalted occasion) and some jokes I made about it at the time.

"Heavens! ;)"

matos: i didn't come up with the thread title. i've never called chuck "stupid." i don't think he's stupid. i think he's too defensive and too hotheaded, and this gets in the way of (or supersedes) his making convincing arguments on behalf of his own writing and the music he loves. i think you do this often too--react defensively rather than enter into real argument.

blount asked me, in so many words, if i feel that i get more flack when i "take on" chuck eddy on threads like these, and i kept mum, not wanting at that point to inflame this thread further. but i now feel it's ok to point out that matos is the first person that sprung to my mind as frequently "defending" chuck eddy by simply insulting me...and without providing any kind of substantive defense of chuck's writing. i do seem to get a lot less "benefit of the doubt" when i criticize chuck's writing, and i never seem to have to confront (for better and for worse) so much criticism as when it's about chuck eddy. maybe that simply testifies to the passion his criticism incites in others here. (note that i've *never* made the charge that people are defending chuck because he could give them work.) but it irks me that the "argument" that i get from chuck and some of his fans amounts to little more than sniping. (à la the "formalist doctrine" comment--matos i think you understand what i meant by arguing for a "formalist criticism" or a formalist tendency in music criticism, and i think you know i didn't make the argument simply as a way to castigate particular practicing critics--in fact i avoided doing so on that thread, and tried to make it a "positive" endeavor of coming up with "problems" that could be solved through a formalist-inflected criticism.)

If you reconstitute the grease that will have accumulated on five library books, you can in fact assemble a cheese steak. It's technical possible, though it hasn't actually been tried.

I sped up things by forcing through a written redraft at top speed so we could sit back and let everyone else argue over their rewrites.
Ned, this is no way to get things down. The proper way to do it is tolet everybody else drag you down with their two cents of this and that and then, when nothing is done, join in on the finger-pointing.

yeah. and . . . ?
Nothing. Just trying to pre-push that button before Big Lefty rides into town.

Let us now talk about the aura of bongwater in the age of mechanical reproduction.

I'm getting bad visions of Ann Magnuson singing a song called "Jacques Derrida Wants Ideas."

The proper way to do it is tolet everybody else drag you down with their two cents of this and that and then, when nothing is done, join in on the finger-pointing.

I think of it as my contribution to workplace morale (so they'll leave me alone about everything else).

look: drag city does not hate rock; lots of records on drag city rock--royal trux, viva last blues, some ghost, squirrel bait, red krayola, weird war, etc. these are records made in a style of music conventionally called "rock." if chuck wants to make up his own definition of the word, that's fine. good for him.

working in a library sounds fun.

Hey, didn't I tell you about the time I was playing To Live and Shave in LA's Interview with the Mitchell Brothers at my workspace? I have no idea what my coworkers thought. Though one time one woman accused me of listening only to static (Acid Mothers Temple was playing at the time).

xp #2: I hate to say it, but on a board like this where a good 85% of critical, analytical why-certain-music-doesn't-work discourse is comprised of twenty-word remarks that (albeit good-naturedly snarky) usually boil down to "such and such a band is rubbish and listened to by losers", I can understand why someone might get a bit defensive and pissed-off. Which is pretty much my entire M.O. some days, usually to embarrassing effect. Such is the nature of the geek.

i love libraries! especially academic libraries.

but i don't think i'd want any job where i had most of the day to putter around on the interweb. i've had jobs like that, and they slowly suck out your soul. although i'm sure most librarians are quite busy. (note: i'm not being sarcastic. i've known some busy librarians in my time.)

xpost

I try limiting it to the first part of that sentence, but I suspect I convey too much of the second at points.

I always pictured working in a library as working in some sort of perfect, endless silence

Oh, it can be. But not in the office area, which helps prevent insanity.

but i don't think i'd want any job where i had most of the day to putter around on the interweb. i've had jobs like that, and they slowly suck out your soul

If I didn't have the Net, the soul would have been long sucked out and destroyed years back. (As it currently stands, it's resting.)

i've known some busy librarians in my time.

We all do! Namely the good Leon the Fratboy for a start.

"fame"

or maybe I'm just pointing out when you're being shrill?

What she got was no tomorrow.

endless silence
Silence perhaps yes, but with the olfactory sense always charmingly on alert.

putter around on the interweb
I am shocked, simply shocked, to find that interweb puttering is going on.

Haven't read it. Portnoy's is the only Roth I've read and I can't say I'm much moved to read any more.

sorry I keep forgetting its you who does it and its not due to fear. The idea of someone fearing Joe Levy's wrath is HI-larious and I gotta point it out.

xpost - holy shit this kelly clarkson sounds like sleater-kinney! omg wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deservedly so, for crying out loud! Jess's review of her album was a masterpiece of bile.

this is one of the more awkward halftime shows i've seen, i wish they'd just let the marching bands (esp since fucking USC is playing in this game) just do some formations and maybe have will ferrel run out and blow a tuba or something. this kinda blows.

I salute you people getting licenses. But I will refrain myself for the time being.

what the hell is the hand signal for STOP??? surely driving without brake lights is illegal no matter what right?

yeah i can understand not playing starters when you don't have anything to 'play for' but it seems like it might've been good to establish how to win without t.o., then again i'm not gonna pretend i know better than andy reid.

xpost to RS:
But do you need a sponsor in the state of Pennsylvania?

the hand signal for stop is your arm straight down outside the car window. he let me guess until i got it right.

the cop asked me if i was nervous. i said, hell yeah! and i know how to drive! even though i hadn't done it in so long. it's that spotlight/public-speaking/performance nerves thing. it makes me feel like i'm going nuts.

*Vallelunga, Mangusta, Pantera, Longchamp and Deauville.

i grew up in the suburbs, but i was away at bad boys school in rhode island when i turned 16. and when i got back home i was way too busy doing drugs and drinking to get my license. i owe a lot to my drunk and high freinds for driving me around until i was 18. when i was 19 i moved to philly and was safe from carland.

hahahahaha try again!

Made me think of plenty of ska -- and early Fishbone too, which I'm sure would make you happy. ;-)

Those of you who didn't have a drivers' liscence before the end of high school must not have grown up in the suburbs ...

Coronado, CA is the ultimate suburb! It's an ISLAND in San Diego Bay!

xpost -- how did you guys survive in the suburbs without driver liscences?

The library was down the street and I could walk to my record store, what more did I need?

grocery shopping = bus to, cab back.

i say this as a philadelphian (pennsport pride!) who doesn't look forward to paying more than a new yorker for our version of metrocard (which can only be bought at the beginning of the month) for less service.

not yet (I'll start looking eventually but I just know I'm not getting another lease here in State College), but I'd like to be walking distance from south street, I think

The Twin Cities transit system has improved somewhat
C'mon, Nate, take the skyway.

walking is great.

C'mon, Nate, take the skyway.

but i heard it don't move at all like a subway.

[apologizes. turns off computer. goes to bed.]

xpost:
fcc, I wish I had done that an hour ago. But unfortunately I am doing another Barbra Mandrell and burning the Midnight Oil.

surely one of the most productive things that can be done with a midnight oil record. ;-)

a blind lady w/cane got on. one aged/disabled row was empty, one was filled by a homeless woman and her garbage-bagged possesions. blind lady insisted on sitting next to her. "Move your shit, bitch! No, I don't want to sit in that seat, I don't like THAT seat. This is for the aged and disabled..."
Suddenly she's standing up and her cane is poised about three inches from the other woman's face. "Don't Be Fooled By The Eyes!"
"Don't YOU be fooled by them eyes, bitch!"
"That's right. You're a bitch but I'm a bigger bitch..."
(inaudible comment from bus driver)
"Go ahead, call the cops! I'm not sitting in that other seat. Don't Be Fooled By The Eyes!"
The cane is hovering, the homeless woman isn't backing down, when a commanding voice issues from the back of the bus.
"SHUT THE FUCK UP, BOT A YAS! I had to work all day, what did you do? We didn't pay two dollars to hear you argue all the way uptown." The ride continued in silence, the two women still sitting next to each other with their heads turned facing the other way.

I mostly walk. Like scott, I used to walk all over the place, from the so-called Art Museum area to Indian grocery stores in West Philadelphia, etc. I think the whole thing was a mistake though. I wish I'd learned to drive, like normal people. It's ultimately very limiting not to be able to get around that way.

Clayton
http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/columnists/clayton_john_ipr.jpg

yeah, and special note to manthony, living as i do about a 20 minute walk from south st (where i work) is kind of limiting. on the other hand, living in williamsburg lite fishtown isn't really near much to talk about, that is, things like groceries and so forth.

but you'd be closer to AKA, which is run by mike hoffman, who used to work at 3rd St. Jazz, a store scott remembers fondly as almost everyone does.

whatever happened to that awesome 4 down segment on espn that had clayton squaring off against salisbury? i mean, his appearance as the shonald was nice, but sean's the espn equivalent of dan dierdorf. i lean more toward schlereth and golic (ex-eagle) for player insights.

Oops, I said "?" when I meant "!" somewhere in that spiel. Oh well.

-- chuck, Tuesday, August 5, 2003 1:36 PM (3 years ago)

love u maura
westhoff, huh?

and now http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/village-voice-editors-blogs-that-he-is-quitting/

Sad re Maura.

also see this:

why is everyone on ilx so betrothed with the village voice?

LA Weekly's music section is the worst

Oddly enough, look what's just come into being:

https://twitter.com/WorstoffBen

!

http://www.thelmagazine.com/TheMeasure/archives/2012/09/06/writer-responsible-for-hated-20-worst-hipster-bands-list-has-been-put-in-charge-of-village-voice-medias-music-coverage

Oddly enough, look what's just come into being:

https://twitter.com/WorstoffBen

Whoever created this account is a monster.

^^^

omg did you see who is following that account

it's a big list of lols

I thought some of those quotes were made up but....

all real, huh?

dunno about all, but i looked up a few of the most egregious, and yeah

that 20 worst hipster bands thing was some of the most inarticulate music writing I've ever read. That dude is taking over as VV media editor?!?!

http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/at-village-voice-editor-and-music-editor-depart-and-weekly-will-have-a-new-address/

that piece, without actually just tossing its cards all on the table face up and being a pure editorial, throws about as much shine at maura as possible :-)

Westhoff's book on Southern rap is pretty decent, but everything else the guy has ever written is egregious. What the hell's the deal there?

If it's any consolation, this is a good song to sing along with:
Sometimes it gets so hard to care,
It can't be this way everywhere.
I'm gonna let you pass.
And I'll go last.
Time will tell
Just who has fell
And who's been left be-
hi-i-ind,
When you go your way and I go mine.

maura got canned for this guy?

He's overseeing the blogs throughout the chain.

chain chain chain

What the hell's the deal there?

― fadanuf4erybody, Friday, September 14, 2012 5:03 PM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark

he does what people ask him to do

i almost feel bad for westhoff. he's being crucified all over the place today dude to forces that are much bigger than him, and idk, he's given a platform to a few very good writers. and he's keeping himself employed. but i'm not sure if i've ever liked his writing and his editorial direction of the LA weekly section was pretty terroristic.

i actually thought maura left of her own accord when i heard this, given the general sort of intransigence and cluelessness that VV media management traffic in, so i'm surprised to read the quote above where she said the decision wasn't hers

one thought i had today was whether or not this is going to be the final nail in the coffin of P&J and whether some other site (or people independently) should try and pull a jackin pop 2.0

yeah that definitely crossed my mind today

sorry maura, you did a good job

I'm just glad that finally someone in the Voice can have the courage to applaud Lenny Kravitz "for never conforming to racial expectations."

there are larger forces behind westoff's editorial work but when its your byline below 'Interview With a Raver Who Wears Electrical Tape on Her Boobs' and you are a 40 year old man and that raver is a senior in high school, then you deserve all the shit that comes your way

i honestly thought the worstoff twitter was just a parody thing, holy shit at those being actual quotes

Heh, the guy who wrote this really casually racist article is the editor-in-chief of the Seattle Weekly. :/

i honestly thought the worstoff twitter was just a parody thing, holy shit at those being actual quotes

Quotes from his writing and his twitter. What a prince.

This is dredging up a crapton of old memories. I thought I'd already gotten about as cynical as I could get about media stuff, but at this rate I'm going to be surprised if all media isn't just advertiser-sponsored in the next ten years, except for maybe the ny times and le monde or something, both of which will be blog subdivisions of huffpo, and the Sun, which will be the website of record, by virtue of being the only outlet that pays writers in anything other than promotional swag and jujubes.

i just found out that a local mag i write for, The Urbanite, announced today that it's shutting down, so yeah, definitely feeling like that at the moment.

Remember the black R&B (LOL) singer named Brandy? What happened to her?

i feel like a lot of folks have missed out on just how bad the la weekly music section is. nothing but really poorly done challopy lists and pix of raver chicks it seems.

village voice's sound of the city blog is going to become the pits, isn't it?

yes it is

i feel like the state of "alternative" journalism nowadays is like one huge intentional middle finger to anyone with taste--seemingly with few exceptions, the most egregiously awful writers have been promoted to editorial positions. under this set of circumstances chuck eddy looks like edmund wilson.

at least we get to work on some puns involving the new music editor's prophetic last name, "worstoff"

"are you better or worstoff than four years ago?"

worstoff IS a pun, his name is westhoff

oh shows how much i know.

the saga continues...

Ben Westhoff ‏@brwestho
New Voice music editor takes the reigns a week from Monday.

The 'saga' shows the guy can't even spell reins right!

Reigndance

The reigns in Spane fall manly on the planes.

RTVM: Do you think being on Real World helped with Reigndance at all?

Andre: No, not at all, MTV at that time was all about Nirvana, Pearl Jam and that scene.

I have been so tempted to go to a reigndance show, but I never did.

for all intensive purposes, this dude seems like a solid editor. a+.

his editorial direction of the LA weekly section was pretty terroristic. Gory details please? This may matter to some of us soon.

nice quote at the end of this 9 year old friggin' weird-ass thread:

"under this set of circumstances chuck eddy looks like edmund wilson."

and i just read the whole headache again so its all "fresh" in my mind. i'm not gonna forgetfullness anything!

Fuuuuck. Really?!?? Jesus Christ this sucks on several levels

Sorry to hear that, Al.

It's getting tougher and tougher out there

it's kind of funny/sad how those of us who trade in the written word scolded the music industry so much for not adapting to the internet fast enough to develop a sustainable new model that's remotely as profitable as the new one, when it turns out us typewriter monkeys got it way way worse in that department

Film crits had it worse, or first, overall. Also later, like Hoberman. The hits just keep on coming.

eh, hoberman's fine

i didn't mean music writers specifically, i meant broadly people working in newspapers, magazines etc.

Jordan, just the man I wanted to see. "Terroristic" in the section? Please tell.

i think maura will be fine too! she is way smart and and i know its hard finding a gig like that but if anyone can find a cool gig she can. anyone working at the VV now must have one eye on the clock anyway. not exactly a job-security kinda joint anymore.

maybe she'll go work at rhapsody with chuck and rob!

for your convenience, voice media and idolator have now merged and will be known as violator.

yeah Maura will have other jobs, for sure, maybe a way better one. but she did THAT job really well and it was fun to be a small part of it, so i'm still gonna be bummed. (xpost lol)

clover are you aware that there's already a company called violator and its founder recently committed suicide?

"Terroristic" in the section? Please tell.

― dow, Friday, September 14, 2012 10:39 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

i'd just go and take a look at the LA weekly blog. or read any of the stories from today about maura being released and westhoff taking over. they've put all their chips on pageview whoring and outright trolling, along with doing things like breaking up a 600 word story into 4 pages. real dumpster diving shit. it's no way to sustain a business, either.

for your convenience, voice media and idolator have now merged and will be known as violator.

commentary and dissent have merged to form dysentery.

are you aware that there's already a company called dysentery and its founder recently pooped?

some dude -- oh man, i didn't put two and two together and recognize the bad-taste connotation to my joke. didn't intend that at all.

haha i wasn't saying your joke was in poor taste because of that, just was the association i made

yeah la weekly is generally completely unreadable but worse than ever over the past six months.

now that jonathan gold is gone, karina longworth is the only reason to read it.

maura should just have her own thing for real. or get together with her pal daphne and create a music website that has daphne's nu-best music writing series as an anchor maybe? and steal away all the ilxors who make pitchfork worth reading and have them write for it. and al too. and matos, i guess. he'll be in there somewhere. he always is! i can be the streaming netflix critic. that's all i know anymore. amanda palmer could help her kickstart it!

xp: and sometimes i skim the rollins column, but it's pretty self-aggrandizing.

is musto the last remnant of the 'real' voice left? not counting hentoff's sorta return, or other vets popping up w/ the occasional piece

the new food critic for the weekly seems to be a lot more negative and nitpicky than JG was. he always seemed to go w/"if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" and skim over the bits he didn't like at places he thought were ok.

i liked gold's style of "yes, this restaurant serves this popular dish, but that's not why you go here."

Scott tying the day's threads together

I was supposed to do a Voice interview feature on CS Yeh's new album for October; time to find a new home for that I guess

Regimes end so suddenly in music journalism. It's scary and painful even after a decade plus of this sort of thing, not least b/c you develop a kindship w the people you write for

P.S. what up strongo

man i miss writing for strongo too. and our other CP eds that left this last year or two. fuck.

For reals, yeah. I mean, we're all on FB and junk but it isn't the same

The LA Weekly's been going downhill since 2010 when they started getting rid of some of their best writers, but yeah, the music coverage has been really lame in ht last year. The Rollins column, ech.

<3

i actually thought maura left of her own accord when i heard this, given the general sort of intransigence and cluelessness that VV media management traffic in, so i'm surprised to read the quote above where she said the decision wasn't hers

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, September 14, 2012 9:56 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wow as did i. ughhhh @ all of this

nu-village voice in full effect!

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/09/lionel_knows_be.php

being as how the state of professional music journalism is so depressing here in 2012... thank god for ilx

i did not know lionel ritchie had gone country

I would urge people not to click on that link, pageviews are all these creeps want anyway.

the entry for Brandy in particular reads like something from a Jackie Harvey column

I would urge people not to click on that link, pageviews are all these creeps want anyway.

― controversial cabaret roommate (Nicole), Saturday, September 15, 2012 2:45 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

Everyone just needs to relax. This thing that's happening to VV is a totally natural phenomenon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuKjBIBBAL8

"Natural" or not, the fact that a once highly respected publication is losing another talented editor/writer, is not something that I want to "relax" about.

I'm saying the VV is the husk of an ant being driven to its inevitable demise by the brain-devouring fungus which is its pageview-driven new direction. Which is a metaphor. Involving a natural process that's completely horrifying and unrelaxing. Which is irony.

Ah. Ok

do they still have nsfw party pics?

ahhhh, "burlesque at the bell house". now that's what i'm talking about. 90 pages of titty pictures. i'm headed to applebee's. see you chumps later.

Huzzah.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/09/brian_mcmanus_n.php

Still so fucking pissed they fired (or did she quit?) Maura. She was the only reason I read that rag.

You mean you don't want countless listicles and articles about strippers? For shame.

can we have articles *by* strippers?

i don't think she's a stripper, and its not really an article, but the author of this Voice listicle was groped a lot by rando creepers at burning man.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/09/burning_man_gue.php

don't know why its in the music section either really. though i know there is music at burning man.

Still so fucking pissed they fired (or did she quit?) Maura. She was the only reason I read that rag.

― marginal victory, Monday, September 17, 2012

Per the NY Times blogpost posted upthread, she was fired

This new editor is so talented:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/09/reviews_of_wine.php

"Here at Sound of the City, however, we're fearless motherfuckers who refuse to be pushed around. Also, we're drunk."

Watch out guys, we've got a badass over here.

that's sort of an old school journalism thing... no more needlessly self-mythologizing tho

"no less" i mean

been dying for ANYONE to post something he's written that is, if not noteworthy, at least readable and justifies his existence. too lazy to do it on my own which is why I don't really give a shit. /internethardman

the wine thing is terrible. the one page of it i could take. should be on, like, the national lampoon website if they still have one.

jurnilism: http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/2012/07/diplo_express_yourself_contest_winners_pop_that_ass.php

okay i checked. r.i.p. natlamp

http://www.nationallampoon.com/

voice music section online should just be a link to something awful site now. cut out the middleman.

thank u sclover

also like VV bio noted his book on philly dive bars which, even if it's like your only book you don't really lead w/ that

If indeed one were to find oneself interviewing the winner of such a contest (please Jesus noooo, I'll be good just please nooo), those might well be decent questions to ask. But any evidence of his editing skills?

http://instagram.com/p/QFI2dLpJB8/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2012/09/24/village-voice-alt-weekly-chain-sold-in-management-buyout/

That was mentioned on the other Voice thread I think:

Village Voice Media being acquired by New Times very soon

<3 that instagram

http://www.villagevoice.com/2012-09-26/film/half-a-century-in-the-new-york-film-festival-thrives/2/#livefyre

gemko
Antoine D'Anthac is the name of the fictional playwright within Resnais' film. Jean Anouilh is the real-life playwright being adapted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Anouilh

Factcheckers are people employed by a publication to prevent errors like this from finding their way into print.

Antoine D'Anthac burrrrrrn

I just got an email from the voice entitled "Weekly Music News: Funny Fart Noises." Case closed.

lol i browsed past the vv music page the other day out of curiosity, saw that headline, and just kept it moving

that's not true, i clicked on the joke review of cruel summer and the kanye sex tape

x-post-Editor decided that was the only way to get people to read a review of a movie re longtime WBAI radio host Bob Fass.

I'm not defending the headline, just noting what the fart article is actually about

http://i.imgur.com/gxJh3.gif

The interview process will include an editing test. . . . Include recent clips, if you have them.

1) edit here is a sentence about guitarist Al Di Meola that I once read in a local publication

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/10/this_week_in_th_70.php

Elsewhere, Raymond Cummings chats with C.S. Yeh about his sonic shift, and the Noise Maker's new embrace of-- shutters-- reverb and melody.

I mean, really

eep

my son says "latter" for "ladder" because he's convinced i mistakenly pronounce all ts in the middle of words as ds, so he autocorrects on the fly, if that makes any sense

anyway, what i mean is that maybe all that's happening here is that the writer is the 3-year-old son of an american expat

also, reverb and melody? Is reverb alien to noise?

McManus seems so simple, like a turkey that drowns in the rain because it doesn't have the sense not to stare up into the sky.

nice pice by ray tho

piece*

etiding, what are it.

http://childrenstech.com/files/2011/08/Picture-4-300x221.png

i highly recommend this book about a turkey who's so stupid it can't even wear simple articles of clothing correctly that other animals have no problem with. my son goes into hysterics yelling "silly turkey!" at every page.

hehe

i feel like i need to point out that beloved ilxor ray himself was 99 percent not responsible for this heinous act against coherence

seriously though i had my problems with harvilla's reign obviously and maura was always pushing a boulder up a hill while being pecked by vultures but jesus christ the brazenness with which they've just decided to take daily massive dumps on the voice's legacy since her departure is kinda breathtaking

have not been surprised by any of it since the great purge.