the most loathed artist in rock history

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Can someone please logically explain to me why rock fans so despise Billy Joel? I know people who don't mind the Carpenters or John Denver but revile Joel. Because the earlier artists 'don't pretend to be something they aren't'. What's the deal? It's just catchy pop music. What's wrong with that?

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

It's just catchy pop music.

Name me an act that you hate thoroughly but someone else describes in a similarly 'it's just [whatever]' terms and you will get a peek into the problem here.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

it is sort of that they don't pretend much. BJ oozes smarm while trying to be sincere. the carpenters, etc. are beyond smarm. also, he occupies the terrible space between rock and lite. thinks he's rock, actually zero rock factor, but not lite enough for a hipster cheese factor. finally, his copping a springsteen thing while not having one hundredth the talent in any way is a major bummer. oh, also: "we didn't start the fire".

that said, i like "allentown".

― southern lights (southern lights), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

he is a victim of the long and tragic tradition of predjudice against long island dicks. also "we didn't start the fire".

― dan (dan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Joel is a better musician then Springsteen. Bruce has recycled the same 3 note melody for about 2 dozen songs. 'Fire' is a crappy song but it's just that...a bad song. Everyone writes one now and then. And as for the 'Long Island Dicks' part I really don't have mention that's not music related do I?

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I have gathered that many of the posters to this site do not in any way like Sting and the intelligent pop music he creates.

― bahtology, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

That would include myself among them. I find Sting's music lifeless, and in the last 15 years or so, tuneless. Joel has never been accused of being tuneless.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

A real answer to the question would have to name an artist that didn't actually sell millions of records, wouldn't it? Otherwise you're just moaning. Who cares?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Hampton Grease Band!!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

is this one of the billy joel street team? good job on that fmu thing!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:01 (twenty-two years ago)

re: long island dicks . . . the reasons people don't like him don't have to be music-related, do they? i have to say, as much as i try to scrub persona from my impression of an artist, his persona definitely gives me the weebies. smarm.

― John Magee (southern lights), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I still find the pea-brained, point-missing guilelessness of "It's Still Rock'n'Roll To Me" too much to listen to all the way through. Even after all these years.

"Piano Man" too = proof of godless universe.

― Venga, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

BJ has helped degrade the v. idea of 'catchy pop tunes' w/ his grindingly joyless commitment to/advocacy of the holy 'craft' of songwriting

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Can't argue with that. Just confirms my suspicions that it's the persona more then the music. ISRNRTM is tongue in cheek satire.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex is kinda the Long Island Geir Hongro

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex - but it's fucking abysmal t-i-c satire. Clunky and laboured and smug and horrible.

― Venga, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

"Clunky and laboured and smug and horrible."

That would be the reaction I get from most people about most of his work. I should really stop asking. :-)

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

see none of those words apply to the Carpenters

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex, this is a sincere question, do you like Elton John? 'Cos I always think of Elt and BJ as US-UK equivs, and they even did some big country house type posho gigs over here a cpl of years ago. I'd say that most of the things said abt BJ on this thread cld equally be applied to EJ, except I think pretty much everybody has at least one Elt John song they can stand, more or less, whereas there doesn't seem to be a single redeeming song in BJ's vast discog

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Elton John is far far far far far superior to Billy Joel

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

plus Billy ain't got no Beach Boys

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:27 (twenty-two years ago)

A single redeeming song in his catalog based on this board? Or your personal opinion? New York State of Mind? Allentown? Most of The Nylon Curtain actually. You'd be surprised. But anyway EJ was great when he was in his 20s. In the last 25 years I would be surprised if anyone thought his output superior to Joel's. Furthermore...if BJ is the American anything he's the American Paul Mccartney to who's music his is much closer to then John's. The piano thing is a superficial comparison. John's music is closer to Randy Newman then Joel.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

there doesn't seem to be a single redeeming song in BJ's vast discog

< sheepish voice > I liked "My Life" when I was 9. < /sheepish voice >

― Venga, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

i accidentally saw a band a few weeks ago called Koufax, that totally had a Billy Joel schtick but played by a bunch of indie rockers. the singer kept clapping to the music (always a plus to me). after the show was over, my friend came up to me and said, "damn, i really hated them, they sounded just like Billy Joel", and i said, "damn, that's exactly why i liked them"

― JasonD (JasonD), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't necessarily mind him until he started dressing like the fifth Ramone sometime in the late 80's (shades and leather jacket at all times). He had his moments (there are tracks on the Stranger that I don't mind). He's kind of a tragic lonely figure now, isn't he.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Pussy Galore was loathed far more than Billy Joel ever has been or ever will be.

― Andrew Frye (paul cox), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

this is true

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't necessarily mind him until he started dressing like the fifth Ramone sometime in the late 80's (shades and leather jacket at all times).

It's been said that in the mid 70s he was sort of an idelogical precursor to punk. Bashing religion, celebrity and suburban conformity. If all you know is the stuff on the radio you're missing a lot. He wore a leather jacket in the 70s.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Joel is a US Macca? Why not go the whole hog Alex? East coast Brian Wilson?

― Venga, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, punk definitely ripped off Billy Joel < / alexbait>

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I was just saying that his music has more in common with Macca then Elton.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex, where was it said that Billy Joel "was sort of an ideological precursor to punk" - I surely want to read more of that kind of 'revisionist' thinking. And I'm realising that I might have a bit of a 'blind spot' when it comes to Elton John (see also: Queen), but yr EJ-Randy N comparison just doesn't make sense to me..

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus he is ugleeeee without even the saving grace of, say, EJ's freakishness. And yes this does matter and is relevant.

― Venga, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

where was it said that Billy Joel "was sort of an ideological precursor to punk"

http://www.raw-tcsd.com/images/joelatt.nl.26282.jpg

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd probably take "Little Jeannie" over anything Joel has done.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Here is a link for one take:
http://metronewyork.com/nymetro/news/nyawards/n_8103/index10.html

But I'm speaking from my knowledge of his work and themes in his mid 70s work were generally out of step with the standard singer songwriter stuff of the time. Those themes I mentioned occur. And musically I think EJ and RN both had that Americana thing going whereas BJ was closer to Macca style pop and showtunes.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:42 (twenty-two years ago)

venga - everybody of a certain generation liked a billy joel song when they were 9. no need for sheepishness. mine, also, was "my life".

― John Magee (southern lights), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:42 (twenty-two years ago)

"everybody"

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Pussy Galore was loathed far more than Billy Joel ever has been or ever will be

Yeah, but Pussy Galore never recorded anything as godawful as "We Didn't Start the Fire", "Uptown Girl" or the fuckin' "Piano Man".

It's been said that in the mid 70s he was sort of an idelogical precursor to punk.

**spits beer all over keyboard in apoplectic fit of incredulity**

He wore a leather jacket in the 70s.

So did Linda Ronstandt. B.F.D.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

haha Atillia = the Meatles

John M, everybody in the US, poss - we had Cliff Richard in the UK to fulfill our quota of Joel-like crud (tho' BJ did have a few big hit recs over here, it's true, but he never really meant that much compared to Elton or Cliff or even Paul Simon, who I'd rate FAR FAR above EJ and BJ

i shouldn't be up so late, posting this shit

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Uptown Girl was a perfect Four Seasons homage. Do you like them? How could it have been any better an evocation of pre-Beatles American pop rock.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

LIGH

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Before it was hijacked by the Cure contingent, there were some interesting points pro and con raised on this thread:

Billy Joel C/D?

Though somehow the Joel-as-forefather-of-punk thesis remained undiscussed.

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I always found Joel's music to exude far more show business smarm thsan the man himself ever did. I know little of his persona. Most of his music sounds like the theme tunes to failed sitcoms from the mid-'70s.

Also, "We Didn't Start the Fire"

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Joel should name his next album Hijacked by the Cure Contingent.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks for the link. How can that 'Burr' guy say Joel has no talent. That's mind boggling. Even people who hate acknoledge his craftsmanship It then follows that ANYONE can do what he does. I'm surprised to see Elvis Costello spoken to so condscendingly also since in the States he is revered as genius.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

craftsmanship /= talent

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I kind of liked "Big Shot", and "My Life" is ok too. What makes them sorta work for me is that the lyrics and performance put across a persona that's arrogant, bitter and jerky, and it seems authentic. Much better than any attempt at nicey-nice. He played at being punkish way better than Ronstadt because I think that's much closer to his real personality. Didn't he even have a (bad) song called "Angry Young Man"? Come to think of it, although Elton John has more rock and pop cred, I think I prefer Joel simply because of that assholish undercurrent. Since ILM, no artist is beyond the pale to me now; maybe I'll even pick up a used Joel LP in the dollar bin.

― Sean (Sean), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm surprised to see Elvis Costello spoken to so condscendingly also since in the States he is revered as genius.

No, he's not. Another guy who was better off being a jerk. I'd actually rather listen to Joel now.

― Sean (Sean), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

In Bryant Park in New York last week they had the cast of MOVIN' OUT - which (I'm surprised has not been mentioned yet) is a Broadway musical based on the songs of Mr. Joel - perform some songs. Definitely cringe-worthy. The band chose to portray the more 'rocking' sound of Joel, in contrast to the 'Lite radio' side. I heard: Bigshot (no no no no you had to be the bigshot), Big Man on Mulberry St, and the first verse and chorus of 'New York State of Mind,' a song which even though I grew up here makes me feel like my head is going to explode.

Here's a link to the Flash overload superheavy MOVIN OUT website - watch out for the dancer coming towards you relentlessly.
http://www.movinoutonbroadway.com/

― calstars (calstars), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm with alex on this one, how can billy be the most loathed when there are more deserving targets like, er....can i get back to you on this one? ta.

― joni, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd actually rather listen to Joel now.

My god! That's one of the cruelest insults ever, well done Sean.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Is he more loathed than ELP?

Elton John wrote some great melodies. "Benny and the Jets" is classic. And there's something to be said for "Crocodile Rock". I honestly even kind of like the melody to "Can You Feel the Love Tonight?" (I don't consciously know any Billy Joel songs pre-"We Didn't Start the Fire".)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't see how you can deny his talent as a tunesmith. There's no way around it. Angry Young Man is such a great song! Great piano solo and complex chord structure. I wouldn't touch that Broadway show with a ten foot pole. But in America, Elvis Costello is regarded by many critics as THE model of a great post 60s singer songwriter.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I've found my alternate ways of dealing with Billy Joel

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Great Billy Joel songs:
Summer Highland Falls
New York State of Mind
Uptown Girl (dammit)
The entirety of The Stranger (even Just the Way You Are)
(dammit)
Honesty (I guess)

I think I've run out.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey that's a whole 13! (and I think a song or two on 'The Stranger' stink) Like I said his album tracks are almost always better then the singles. Even the most vociferous haters can find something to sort of like in there somewhere.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Where does Steve Wonder fit into this picture?

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Thursday, 14 August 2003 01:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Stevie Wonder rules that's where he fits in.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 01:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Damn right.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 14 August 2003 01:35 (twenty-two years ago)

When I saw the Islanders play at Nassau Coliseum, a local guy next to me figured that my wife & I were from out of town and began giving us (friendly, not unwelcome or over-long) history & local-culture lessons. One of them was to point to a banner that hung on the wall proclaiming Joel's historical (five? eight? ten?)-night sold-out stand in said building. Very solemn: "See that? All of those shows sold out? Nobody ever did that before."

Final score, Islanders-Ducks 2-2 btw

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 14 August 2003 01:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Billy Joel was the first music guy I really got into. When I was aged ten or something. I did love all the tunes. I loved 'Piano Man'. I haven't listened to Billy Joel for nearly twenty years, for fuck's sake, but he must have had tunes enough to distract me from A-ha.

― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Thursday, 14 August 2003 02:02 (twenty-two years ago)

There seems to be a few people on this thread who like the Joel.
As an alternate, I'd like to nominate Don Henley as my most loathed artist in rock history. I think if I can get a strong word-of-mouth grassroots campaign going, he just might become yours.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Thursday, 14 August 2003 02:10 (twenty-two years ago)

As soon as I get home, my copies of "Pink Flag", "Spiral Scratch", "Unknown Pleases", "Never mind the bollocks" et al are going straight in the bin. Now that I know Billy Joel is the originator of the whole punk caper I'm going to stop listening to the imitators and get back to the source...

― steve, Thursday, 14 August 2003 02:28 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, if you want to send my your copy of Spiral Scratch, that's cool

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Thursday, 14 August 2003 02:35 (twenty-two years ago)

All's I know is the themes Joel dealt with in the mid 70s were taken up by the punks in a couple of years.

But I agree about Henley. Talk about a minimally talented pseudo musician who's claim to fame was leading one of the most unadventurous and bland bands of all time. Whiny voice, music usually written by others. Blech.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 04:31 (twenty-two years ago)

c'mon - that guy's a helluva tunesmith!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 14 August 2003 04:35 (twenty-two years ago)

All's I know is the themes Joel dealt with in the mid 70s were taken up by the punks in a couple of years.

Yup, nobody had ever sung about those themes before, tackling religion or conformity or any of that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 14 August 2003 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok you guys are right, I totally loathe Pussy Galore. At least as much as I loathe The Horrorist or some other band nobody's heard of. I know I'd rather listen to Billy Joel than either of those two but in all cases it would be under threat of imminent fingernail removal.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 14 August 2003 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

c'mon - that guy's a helluva tunesmith!

Henley generally didn't write music..in the Eagles or on his own.

Yup, nobody had ever sung about those themes before, tackling religion or conformity or any of that.

But the impulse that led Joel to do so, chronologically and geographically, was the same one that spawned the Ramones.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 05:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Henley's nine times the tunesmith Joel is

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 14 August 2003 05:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Don Henley: 100% Tunesmith

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 14 August 2003 05:08 (twenty-two years ago)

plus Billy Joel totally stole his themes from the Eagles

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 14 August 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I give Billy credit simply for "For the Longest Time" which, is such a great pop song. His voice, the simplicity, it all comes together.

who'd of thunk a song with just a bass line and snapping could be so rich sounding?

― David Allen, Thursday, 14 August 2003 05:18 (twenty-two years ago)

All the vocal tracks on there are him btw. Just him and a very subtle bass.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 05:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus I had a friend in a ska band do a cover of it. It wasn't very good.

You can hear it here

http://www.smappdi.net/sao/Secret%20Agent%20Orange!%20-%20The%20Longest%20Time.mp3

― David Allen, Thursday, 14 August 2003 05:21 (twenty-two years ago)

that link should have a huge warning sign around it and like five confirmation dialog boxes

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 14 August 2003 05:40 (twenty-two years ago)

My favorite part is when they go HARDCORE GRUNGE in the middle.

Friends shouldnt let friends ska.

― David Allen, Thursday, 14 August 2003 06:07 (twenty-two years ago)

For me, it's not really Henley being a tunesmith or not. It's just Henley being Henley, and for some reason I loathe Henley.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Thursday, 14 August 2003 06:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I sympathise. In America, The Eagles are the highest selling band of all time and I have never met anyone under 40 who's a fan. It's one of the mysteries of the Western world.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 13:33 (twenty-two years ago)

there doesn't seem to be a single redeeming song in BJ's vast discog

Umm hello??? "Tell Her About It"?? "The Longest Time"?? "Uptown Girl"?? These are great songs people!!

Most loathed artist in rock history: Milli Vanilli

― Evan (Evan), Thursday, 14 August 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Umm hello??? "Tell Her About It"?? "The Longest Time"?? "Uptown Girl"?? These are great songs people!!

And all from the same album too! Throw in 'Leave a Tender Moment Alone' from that LP too.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

although Elton John has more rock and pop cred, I think I prefer Joel simply because of that assholish undercurrent.

I agree with this.

Also: "You May Be Right"

― Sam J. (samjeff), Thursday, 14 August 2003 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

"You May Be Right" is probably the only song of his I can stomach, the rest are smarmy and painful smugfests.

― Larcole (Nicole), Thursday, 14 August 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

The singles perhaps. Which are never the best on his albums. There is nothing remotely smarmy about say 'The Nylon Curtain' or Turnstiles or The Stranger. You wouldn't judge a band like U2, REM or The Clash by their radio singles so why do so with others.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I do judge those bands by their radio singles.

― Larcole (Nicole), Thursday, 14 August 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

So do I. Matter of fact, it doesn't seem that logical to NOT judge them by their singles.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Thursday, 14 August 2003 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Most loathed artist in rock history: Milli Vanilli

???

― donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 14 August 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

If push comes to shove comes to jostle comes to assault, I can stomach "The Stranger", "Big Shot", "Movin' Out", "Pressure" and "Allentown." Beyond that, I don't have much time for the man, and still shudder with contempt at Joel's flagrant punk-baiting on Glass Houses (notably "It's Still Rock'n'Roll to Me"). Also, in terms of the comparisons to Elton John, Joel never managed anything as stately or elegiac as "Funeral For a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding", a track which can forgive a million affronts to taste and good judgment like "Sad Songs Say So Much."

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 14 August 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

The 'Glass Houses' thing was meant to be a joke. He was posing as a belligerent clueless outsider and singing songs from the point of view of that persona. And every artist at the time from Linda Ronstadt to The Who felt compelled to respond to New Wave.

P.S. 'Sad Songs' is actually one of Elton's better songs from the last 25 yeras to give one an idea of what he's sunk to.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh it was a joke alright.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

It's like Spy vs. Spy but it's Alex vs. Alex.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

And I'm the one with the white hat! :-) For giggles there was a book some time ago detailing the worst rock records of all time and they named Joel the worst rocker of all time:

http://www.turnstiles.org/articles/worstrocker.html

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

It would be nice to see a Billy Joel/ICP battle.

― Larcole (Nicole), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

You guys know about the Blender thing right?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030813/music_nm/music_worst_dc_2

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

For the record, I don't loathe Billy Joel. I wouldn't go seek his music out, but there a far worse culprits out there than he to spend you time hating.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

"For the record, I don't loathe Billy Joel. I wouldn't go seek his music out, but there a far worse culprits out there than he to spend you time hating."

Exactly! That's why I don't understand Ned Raggett-level rancor. At least judging from other posts on this site. I don't like The Grateful Dead at all but I have no ill will or loathing for them.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't like The Grateful Dead at all but I have no ill will or loathing for them.

Neither me, Alex (though I do tend to hate Grateful Dead fans). The thing I could never figure out about the Dead was their strange appeal. I mean, their music certainly isn't painful to listen to, but it's just so completely unexceptional! I can't imagine how it prompted so many people to follow them so zealously. I fear I shall never understand this.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Moreover, I think bands like Rush and my beloved Iron Maiden are more 'loathed' and openly derided than Billy Joel.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

With the Dead I think it's more the experience of self justification then the music. Rather like Jimmy Buffett. Most people other then fans for those artists don't have anyone else in their daily lives that will stomach their passion. Probably including spouses and close friends. So going to a concert is a chance to be with others like them for a brief time.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Hold on, you're trying to tell me there's someobe on the planet MORE loathsome than Bono? I don't believe it for a second.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 14 August 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

1:52 pm MDT. The slow creaking you hear is my body swinging at the end of a rope.

― Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 14 August 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Q: what do deadheads say when they run out of drugs?
A: god, this band are shite!

the above keith richards-making-fun-of-the-dead joke pretty much sums up that band's appeal.

― Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 14 August 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Yoko

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 14 August 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

...or Courtney Love. Any female artist who is seen as taking away a musician from the slavering fanboy hordes.

― Larcole (Nicole), Thursday, 14 August 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

At least now we know why she has that elongated Brando face and can act. Brando can't sing but then again neither can Courtney.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Phil Spector, of all people, made that Dead joke in a recent interview. What a wag.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 14 August 2003 20:46 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - "Ned Raggett-level rancor"!!!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 14 August 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Didn't he drum on 'Leader of the Pack' or something? If so, I forgive him his many, many sins.

― Myron Kosloff, Thursday, 14 August 2003 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - "Ned Raggett-level rancor"!!!

Grr, grr! Fear my mighty roar! Do not look at man behind curtain!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 14 August 2003 21:28 (twenty-two years ago)

"Didn't he drum on 'Leader of the Pack' or something? If so, I forgive him his many, many sins. "

He played piano on George Shadow Morton's Shangri La records. Inlcuding LOTP. He was uncredited since he was a 14 year old non union musician. The sins of writing dozens of memorable songs are grave indeed.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Perhaps if they were a little more forgettable, they wouldn't be quite so irritating.

― Burr (Burr), Thursday, 14 August 2003 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess that's a matter of taste but you were the one who said Joel 'had no talent' and Zappa also if recall. You really believe that? That writing all those songs not to mention being viruosic on their respective instruments (in Zappa's case several) takes no talent? I'm mean this question in all sincerity

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Should be 'virtuosic' of couse.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Thursday, 14 August 2003 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - of course

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 15 August 2003 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

"but he is not always evil/ and he is not always wrong..."

― dave q, Friday, 15 August 2003 07:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"but he is not always evil/ and he is not always wrong..."

Indeed!

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 13:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Zappa ought to be the most hated, IMHO. I think I'd listen to the worst of Billy Joel (i.e. his 'classical' record) over the worst of FZ (i.e. his 'classical' records).

Notwithstanding, I think a lot of the Billy Joel hatred is fueled by rockism, actually (n.b. this, from a self-proclaimed rockist!). The problem is that while Joel could have been a good disposable pop artist, he aspired to rock-seriousness. Thus, his own rockist aspirations caused him to create music hated by rockists and popists alike!

(Okay, maybe that theory is full of shit, but it sounds neat on first pass. . . bta Stevie Wonder rulez UR Gat etc)

― J (Jay), Friday, 15 August 2003 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

"We Didn't Start the Fire" vs "Start Me Up"

― dave q, Friday, 15 August 2003 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree about the Rockism theory. However why is good pop disposable? A great song is forever.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

However why is good pop disposable? A great song is forever.

Didn't mean to say that it was. 'Disposable' was meant to modify 'Joel,' not 'pop.' My bad.

― J (Jay), Friday, 15 August 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Well the objection stands! To the horror of many, I really think his best songs will be around forever. Tunes like 'Piano Man' don't die they get sung along to.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"I guess that's a matter of taste but you were the one who said Joel 'had no talent' and Zappa also if recall. You really believe that? That writing all those songs not to mention being viruosic on their respective instruments (in Zappa's case several) takes no talent? I'm mean this question in all sincerity"

You're confusing "talent" with "ability."

― Burr (Burr), Friday, 15 August 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

A distinction I'm failing to make apparently. By talent then you mean some sort of innovation? Certainly Zappa qualifies. A melodic gift comprable to the great Tin Pan Alley writers like Irving Berlin? Joel certainly qualifies. By your standard Berlin had no talent either then?

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 17:56 (twenty-two years ago)

It seems you're confusing 'personal taste' with 'talent'. Let's say I don't like Country music, Jazz or Classical. Then I go and say Merle Haggard, Benny Goodman and Gabriel Faure had no talent. That makes about as much sense.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

By talent, I mean something like: using ability to create something "good" or "meaningful" -- subjective, I know, but what isn't? Billy Joel's "melodic gifts" are not comparable to Herman's Hermits,' let alone Irving Berlin's.

― Burr (Burr), Friday, 15 August 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

If by Herman's Hermits you mean Carole King's 'Something Good' then that's mighty high praise. No offense but you've obviously never heard any of his albums. Not to sound like a fanboy but there is no objective way to listen to his best work (never played on the radio) and come to your conclusion. As for 'meaningful' he wrote about Vietnam Vets before Springsteen and wrote one of the best 'protest' songs to ever become a pop hit ('Allentown') which is also filled with unexpected chord changes and melodic shifts. New York State of Mind is a modern standard...and so forth.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"meaningful" /= "political"

― Burr (Burr), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

So then you mean 'personal' meaning. Which is meaningless to discuss. Your definition of talnet is basically 'what I like'. I don't like The Grateful Dead or Fleetwood Mac but I don't deny their talent. I would just go by endurance. Bad music eventually vanishes. His hasn't. Again, songs you've probably never heard like 'Summer, Highland Falls' and 'Laura' are very complex and could not have been written by a musician with no talent. You'd be hardpressed to find a three chord song in his entire catalog.

And please spare me the "complexity" /= "talent" :-)

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

"You'd be hardpressed to find a three chord song in his entire catalog"
you might be right, but the only reason people can't forget about "piano man" no matter how much they try, is because of that damned repetitive piano riff thats pretty much ripped from canon in D (and dont try to make the argument that since he's ripping it from classical music, it's an accomplished riff, it's torturingly simple).
i do however think the man is talented, no matter how lame/cheesy/etc he might be. never want to hear him again though.

― Felcher (Felcher), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

That's fine. A normal reasoned response to an artist you don't care for. Actually 'Piano Man' IS quite simple. It's a just a standard descending bassline. Joel dislikes the song himself. However that doesn't make about 3 dozen other non cheesy songs any less accomplished.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

No more Joel. Give Burr headache, talk like monster.

― Burr (Burr), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I think your lack of any cogent argument is what brought on the headache.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Just thought about the Canon in D (Pachelbel's I presume) and it's starts on the third tone (F#) and works its way down whereas PM starts ont the dominant(5th). So sufficiently different.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

please, suggest something that's not cheesy, because i must admit, all ive heard is "the essential billy joel (disc 1)" and "river of dreams(the album) which were unbearable, but ill give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that his label shouldve chosen a better tracklist for something named "the essential" and every artist is allowed a shitty LP.

xpost, never noticed, i stand corrected, still pretty simple.

― Felcher (Felcher), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I just own the studio albums so I had to go check what the hell was on that 'Essential' disc! You really thought tunes like 'New York State of Mind', 'Movin Out', Allentown and 'Only The Good Die Young' are 'unbearable'? Overplayed maybe but pretty durable pop tunes that haven't dated nearly as badly as lots of hits from the period.

But just to reel off a few off the top of my head: 'Summer, Highland Falls', 'Laura' , 'The Downeaster Alexa', 'All For Leyna'(intentionally cheesy power pop and a whole lot of fun), 'Vienna'. Those are 4 completely different and totally memorable songs that it's hard to believe were written by the same songwriter.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

5 songs I mean!

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Bad music eventually vanishes.

This is false.

― J (Jay), Friday, 15 August 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Not entirely. Art is Darwinian. The dross falls by the wayside unless it has some sort of 'other' value. (Historical, Camp, so forth)

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Friday, 15 August 2003 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

there's a term for artists like BJ who have "talent" and know lots of chords but put them to cloying, calculated and derivative ends: hacks. he's like the evil spawn of all the worst elements of McCartney: Long and Winding Road meets the self-indulgent pastiche work of Honey Pie.
'we didnt start the fire' is actually utterly typical: supposedly his management sent him REM's new single and (as he has always done) he sat right down to cynically toss off something that smelled fresh. i mean those attempts at making "new wave?" - yech!! to see an American "pop" artist who saw the clash, new wave et al and let that impact on his music without turning it into the kind of music you'd hear on an ABC After School Special, note Lindsey Buckingham's contributions to Tusk.

one other reason to hate B.J.: his repeated and outspoken insistence that rap should not be considered as "music."

― hooper, Friday, 15 August 2003 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I've got it! Billy Joel fucking sucks because he has that intangible quality, just like William Shatner, that makes you see past his music and want to burn his fucking car up! And his leather jacket was a homage to the 50's, not a punk thing at all. His anti religious thingy is simple: In a universe where a twat like BJ sells millions of records and any dozen odd punk bands with buckets more talent starve, there can be no god.

― Brandon Welch (Brandon Welch), Saturday, 16 August 2003 01:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Hooper and Brandon Welch OTM.

― Burr (Burr), Saturday, 16 August 2003 02:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Moreover, I think bands like Rush and my beloved Iron Maiden are more 'loathed' and openly derided than Billy Joel.
-- Alex in NYC (vassife...), August 14th, 2003.

I disagree. Every single employee at any Guitar Center, as well as 90% of all instructors of bass guitars nation-wide is required to adore the virtuostic BRILLIANCE that is Rush. Also, when Steve-O Mack went on about the influence of Rush on Pig Lib, I noticed a small amount of hipsters trying their damndest to try and appreciate Rush -- ironic, or not, it's a level above derision.

Iron Maiden get tons of respect; any of those rock-n-roll-no-b.s.-about-it bands AC/DC, Stooges, they all get lots of respect.

― David Allen, Saturday, 16 August 2003 02:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"Still Rock and Roll to me" is an awesome song! I nailed that motherfucker on karaoke at my uncle's wedding.

― Dan I., Saturday, 16 August 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Every single employee at any Guitar Center, as well as 90% of all instructors of bass guitars nation-wide is required to adore the virtuostic BRILLIANCE that is Rush.

Yeah, but look who is extolling Rush's greatness....guitar geeks, themselves no strangers to derision.

Iron Maiden get tons of respect; any of those rock-n-roll-no-b.s.-about-it bands AC/DC, Stooges, they all get lots of respect.

Iron Maiden aren't nearly as revered as AC/DC nor the Stooges. Moreover, AC/DC and the Stooges may be --- to use your terms "no b.s.-about-it rock'n'roll", but Maiden, as great as they are, absolutely wallow their rock'n'roll in b.s.. (i.e. stages shaped like egyptian landscapes, giant Eddie puppets, etc.) They are entirely different breeds of cat.

The only respect Iron Maiden get outside of the metal/hard rock community is sartorial lip-service by jackasses who co-opt their iconography as an ironic fashion statement.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 16 August 2003 03:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I disagree with him on the rap thing but regardless. You can call any Tin Pan Alley writer a hack in a simmilair manner couldn't you? They 'tossed off' what whatever was popular at the time as well. Unfortunatley, that style of songwriting is the antithesis of Rock and Roll. If he lived 50 years earlier no one would have any problem with that method. When I think hack I think Desmond Child or Diane Warren. Whose songs are interchangle with factory issue chord progressions. His music is too compositionally individual to be called hackwork. Whatever the sheer vitirol around here really goes a long to showing how much personality goes towards determining what an artist's 'worth' is. Being arrogant and full of himself hasn't done Joel any favors I guess.

― Alex Firtzin (AlexZ), Saturday, 16 August 2003 03:45 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

I was inspired to revive this because I just recently bought BJs Greatest Hits Vol. I & II. And I'm thoroughly enjoying it! It's missing a few minor hits that should've replaced some of the long, tedious cuts, but on the whole, it's still an excellent display of the man's genius, ranking with Stevie Wonder's Original Musiquarium and Neil Young's Decade as a boil-the-cream-of-a-huge-catalog-down-to-the-absolute-peaks-to-create-a-convincing-if-misleading portrait of genius and a near-undeniable showcase of talent. (Primarily, in BJ's case, as a GREAT pop melodist [or at least "tunesmith"] and a keyboardist.) That so many folks ignore his compositional gifts and actively HATE him is indeed his own fault, due to his many displays of arseholery over the years. But in fairness, he DID attempt suicide once, which would indicate an unstable personality, so at least he came by his arseholery honestly. And it's not as though he's the only extremely talented jerk in music. (Thinking Zappa, Miles, James Brown, etc.) So anyway, all I want to say is that I like this collection a lot; and one nice thing I didn't mention: It only covers the years 1973-85, which means that it was 4 years too soon to include "We Didn't Start The Fire"!

(And that Attila rec is great, too!)

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 25 August 2004 06:07 (twenty-one years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.